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'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:09 PM
I wolfed down a quick lunch about an hour ago, listening to the opening minutes of SVP and Rusillo. Rusillo and Danny Kanell began a conversation on the nature of success in the NFL and what circumstances lead to it. For example, is Pete Carroll the same guy he was in New York and New England, or was he just given more time?

They quickly moved on to discussing the week's games, beginning with the Ravens and Pats. That made me think about Tom Brady. Not 2014 Brady, but skinny fat 2000 Tom Brady, 6th round pick of Dick Rehbein.

We often talk about how much X person's success stems from Y, but what might happen if we put some of these players in different places with different expectations?

I immediately thought about Blaine Gabbert and the 2011 Jags. When the Jags traded up for Gabbert I thought they were getting a future franchise QB not because I'm a Mizzou homer nor his rugged handsomeness, but his physical skills, work habits, and mental acumen.

Four years later, Gabbert looks like one of the worst top ten picks in history. Perhaps he never would have succeeded under any circumstance, but maybe he needed the years on the bench that a player like Aaron Rodgers had at the beginning of his career.

So I wonder: if you placed every one of the starting QBs in the NFL right now on the 2011 Jags as rookies, what would they have done? What would 2000 Tom Brady have done? 2001 Drew Brees? 2005 Aaron Rodgers? 2007 Jamarcus Russell? If you see their career playing out differently, how and why, and what does that suggest to you about the nature of quarterback development in the modern NFL, and how much does organizational stability and luck with coaching matter? Would Tom Brady have been Brady with Rich Kotite? Would Joe Montana be the Wooderson of South Bend without Bill Walsh? Are QB prospects only prospects if they are ready to step in day one? If the organization and luck matters, how do you improve your odds? How do you ensure that your die are most loaded when you roll them?

Feel free to pick other QBs as well. I'd like for this not to be a bash Alex Smith thread, but a dialogue on the skill and fortune involved in the successful career of a modern quarterback.

Simply Red
01-09-2015, 01:12 PM
MOther FUck Alex Smith@! I keed.

DMAC
01-09-2015, 01:15 PM
MOther FUck Alex Smith@! I keed.

Tread ovah!!

Titty Meat
01-09-2015, 01:15 PM
Coaching/Organization means a lot. Andy Reid for example: Vick was an MVP candidate one year what has he done since? Kolb was traded for a 2nd round pick, Alex Smith had a career under Reid, and McNabb was a possible HOF QB.

Beef Supreme
01-09-2015, 01:18 PM
I only saw about six quarters of Blaine Gabbert playing football at Mizzou. In that limited sampling, I determined by eye test that I didn't want him as a QB. He was rattled under pressure, missed throws on dump off passes badly, and seemed to have little in the way of pocket awareness.

That said, it would be a hard road for any QB playing for the 2011 Jags. I imagine some would have done better than Gabbert, but that's not saying much.

Prison Bitch
01-09-2015, 01:19 PM
Gabbert had mega bust plastered all over his forehead. To your point about Brady, it's fair. He may be a product of a system or at least one that allowed him a chance before being crushed. My general take is 90% of personnel decisions are correct because the experts make them. The 10% flubs get the press

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:20 PM
As terrible as Blaine Gabbert has been (with his 784 attempts), Derek Carr has a lower YPA for his career (599 attempts).

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:21 PM
This isn't about Gabbert but bad situations:

Put the remaining playoff QBs on the 2011 Jags with Jack of the River as head coach:

Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Cam Newton

Same players all around otherwise. What happens to that player? The team? His development?

Titty Meat
01-09-2015, 01:22 PM
This isn't about Gabbert but bad situations:

Put the remaining playoff QBs on the 2011 Jags with Jack of the River as head coach:

Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Cam Newton

Same players all around otherwise. What happens to that player? The team? His development?

The Jags would win with Manning, Luck, Brady, and Rodgers.

The only ones who would fail would be Wilson, Flaaco, and possibly Newton.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 01:23 PM
Holy shit...

Are you still homering for fucking Blaine Gabbert?

The guy had horrible pocket presence. Horrible. It's not the Jags fault he sucked. It's because he sucked.

But a very nice way to philosophically wax about the woulda/couldas if Gabbert were only to have been picked by some other team besides the team that picked him because, you know, he was from MU and it's the Jags fault he was ruined.

If the NFL were television, and the teams being syndicated games shows, with the worst any given year being Family Feud, David Carr was Richard Dawson to Blaine Gabbert's Louie Anderson.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:25 PM
They'd all find their way (i.e. Steve Young)

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:25 PM
Colts were a pretty shitty team. We can probably eliminate Luck.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 01:25 PM
Luck is a factor in everything, so it plays a role. And the context of one's circumstances also play a role.

Carroll failed in New England because he had Bobby Grier running the drafts for the Pats, and he did a God-awful job, and Grier also undermined Carroll's authority. I thought he had to go, but I never thought he got a fair shake with either the Jets or the Pats, so the book wasn't "written" on him.

It's hard, very hard, to be a diamond in a patch of crap. The losing mentality can wear you down. Subpar teammates don't just fail to perform on the field, they also have (and bring) issues that torpedo everything regarding the team. Teams have their own culture, and if that culture doesn't foster winning, you're very much swimming upstream.

I'm reading the Bill Parcells autobiography right now, and it's a great read. One thing that comes through loud and clear is the culture change that he brought to the teams that he helped turn around. The need for accountability, pushing to practice and play despite pain and discomfort, participation in "voluntary" offseason workouts, putting in far more hours of film time, etc., than people would ever think, etc. ad infinitum.

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:26 PM
The Jags would win with Manning, Luck, Brady, and Rodgers.

The only ones who would fail would be Wilson, Flaaco, and possibly Newton.

Newton is already doing okay with a shitty head coach and no talent around him on offense. It was basically the same except he lacked a defense as well when he was a rookie in 2011.

He would have been just fine on the Jags

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:28 PM
I'm reading the Bill Parcells autobiography right now, and it's a great read. One thing that comes through loud and clear is the culture change that he brought to the teams that he helped turn around. The need for accountability, pushing to practice and play despite pain and discomfort, participation in "voluntary" offseason workouts, putting in far more hours of film time, etc., than people would ever think, etc. ad infinitum.

http://a.fn.fncdn.com/images/content/4/201204091412/pbvwxj.jpg

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:29 PM
I only saw about six quarters of Blaine Gabbert playing football at Mizzou. In that limited sampling, I determined by eye test that I didn't want him as a QB. He was rattled under pressure, missed throws on dump off passes badly, and seemed to have little in the way of pocket awareness.

That said, it would be a hard road for any QB playing for the 2011 Jags. I imagine some would have done better than Gabbert, but that's not saying much.

As terrible as Blaine Gabbert has been (with his 784 attempts), Derek Carr has a lower YPA for his career (599 attempts).

Holy shit...

Are you still homering for fucking Blaine Gabbert?

The guy had horrible pocket presence. Horrible. It's not the Jags fault he sucked. It's because he sucked.

But a very nice way to philosophically wax about the woulda/couldas if Gabbert were only to have been picked by some other team besides the team that picked him because, you know, he was from MU and it's the Jags fault he was ruined.

If the NFL were television, and the teams being syndicated games shows, with the worst any given year being Family Feud, David Carr was Richard Dawson to Blaine Gabbert's Louie Anderson.

And people lament the state of reading comprehension in this country.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 01:30 PM
This isn't about Gabbert but bad situations:

Put the remaining playoff QBs on the 2011 Jags with Jack of the River as head coach:

Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Cam Newton

Same players all around otherwise. What happens to that player? The team? His development?


One thing about highly successful quarterbacks, especially, compared to other positions, is they need to be leaders and show leadership and have tremendous mental fortitude. Can the player, in a bad situation, tune out all the bad and still raise his team up and succeed? I think the GREAT quarterbacks can, while QBs that are anywhere from poor to merely average, do not.

It's a different generation, but I wonder about the old Drew Bledsoe / Rick Mirer debate. Mirer was taken second, and was rookie of the year, but essentially his NFL career failed, while Bledsoe's was above average. I do think Bledsoe was the better QB, but I'm not sure that Mirer doens't have a much, much better career if he is paired with Parcells and the Pats, rather than a mediocre Seahawks team that never really went anywhere under Tom Flores and Dennis Erickson.

Pitt Gorilla
01-09-2015, 01:31 PM
Tom Brady would have failed under herm, but might have been ok under vermeil.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 01:31 PM
Luck is a factor in everything, so it plays a role. And the context of one's circumstances also play a role.

Carroll failed in New England because he had Bobby Grier running the drafts for the Pats, and he did a God-awful job, and Grier also undermined Carroll's authority. I thought he had to go, but I never thought he got a fair shake with either the Jets or the Pats, so the book wasn't "written" on him.

It's hard, very hard, to be a diamond in a patch of crap. The losing mentality can wear you down. Subpar teammates don't just fail to perform on the field, they also have (and bring) issues that torpedo everything regarding the team. Teams have their own culture, and if that culture doesn't foster winning, you're very much swimming upstream.

I'm reading the Bill Parcells autobiography right now, and it's a great read. One thing that comes through loud and clear is the culture change that he brought to the teams that he helped turn around. The need for accountability, pushing to practice and play despite pain and discomfort, participation in "voluntary" offseason workouts, putting in far more hours of film time, etc., than people would ever think, etc. ad infinitum.

Bill Parcells thought and sold Scott Pioli that Jon Baldwin was every bit as good as Julio Jones.

Bill Parcells can eat a bag of dicks.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 01:32 PM
And people lament the state of reading comprehension in this country.

It's not so much reading comprehension as it is interpretive understanding.

Homer.

Pitt Gorilla
01-09-2015, 01:34 PM
Holy shit...

Are you still homering for ****ing Blaine Gabbert?

The guy had horrible pocket presence. Horrible. It's not the Jags fault he sucked. It's because he sucked.

But a very nice way to philosophically wax about the woulda/couldas if Gabbert were only to have been picked by some other team besides the team that picked him because, you know, he was from MU and it's the Jags fault he was ruined.

If the NFL were television, and the teams being syndicated games shows, with the worst any given year being Family Feud, David Carr was Richard Dawson to Blaine Gabbert's Louie Anderson.
Lol, you must not know Hamas at all.

Beef Supreme
01-09-2015, 01:35 PM
And people lament the state of reading comprehension in this country.

What part did I miss? I addressed your scenario of other first round QBs playing on the 2011 Jags, and determined none would have done very well, but probably some better than Gabbert.

If you are looking for an in-depth accounting for each QB you listed, you can keep looking, because your thought experiment blows.

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:35 PM
The perfect experiment to watch regarding this type of thing in the OP?

Andrew Luck being drafted by the Cleveland Browns.

But thanks to the NFL's fucked up way of rewarding teams like the Colts (and yes, even the Chiefs) who just tank it all away for one season over the teams that try to improve on their rock bottom status year after year, we get to watch him "miraculously" fix the Colts, even though they didn't have any problems to begin with.

The 2012-2013 Browns were in a far more fucked up position from the top-down throughout the organization than the 2011 Jags, in my opinion.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:36 PM
It's not so much reading comprehension as it is interpretive understanding.

Homer.

May you watch everything you've ever loved die miserably on an endless loop while being anally perforated by Jerry Falwell in the fires of blackest Hell.

Pitt Gorilla
01-09-2015, 01:36 PM
New England was a championship team prior to Brady. It was a great situation.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 01:36 PM
http://a.fn.fncdn.com/images/content/4/201204091412/pbvwxj.jpg


Not that guy. This guy

http://media.nj.com/giants_impact/photo/bill-parcellsjpg-dfbf987e5f0f1860.jpg

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:38 PM
What part did I miss? I addressed your scenario of other first round QBs playing on the 2011 Jags, and determined none would have done very well, but probably some better than Gabbert.

If you are looking for an in-depth accounting for each QB you listed, you can keep looking, because your thought experiment blows.

Since you're too dense to grasp it, just move on and head back to the fonix section of the website.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 01:39 PM
New England was a championship team prior to Brady. It was a great situation.


Wait, what?

That team was steadily declining during the late 90s. It failed to make the playoffs in 1999, resulting in Pete Carroll being fired. In 2000, burdened with a terrible cap situation, Belichick cleaned house, and as a result went 5-11.

Coming off that season, some magazine (SI?) named the Patriots the least talented roster in the NFL.

In 2001 they started 0-2 and Bledsoe was hurt in their second game and Brady became the starter. They crushed the Colts (Manning, heh), then lost the next one to be 1-3. Then theyw ent on a run due to a good (not great) defense and a very efficient and mistake-free offense, and quite alot of luck.

They were NOT a championship team before Brady -- they were a team with a few good pieces, and alot of warm bodies, that Belichick and Brady raised to heights that absolutely NOBODY predicted.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:40 PM
And people lament the state of reading comprehension in this country.

Oh, God. I can't even take a shot at awful Derek Carr without you getting your feelings hurt.

Beef Supreme
01-09-2015, 01:41 PM
Since you're too dense to grasp it, just move on and head back to the fonix section of the website.

No, really? What did I not comprehend? I read all the words, I understood all the words. What are you looking for in a response?

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 01:42 PM
Gabbert has been mediocre on mediocre teams, and hurt. He's with the Niners however, and if he has the necessarily talent and passion and work ethic etc., then he should be able to do good things with his career. If he does nothing ever again, then that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:42 PM
No, really? What did I not comprehend? I read all the words, I understood all the words. What are you looking for in a response?

We're supposed to say that they would all fail with the Jags.

rico
01-09-2015, 01:43 PM
May you watch everything you've ever loved die miserably on an endless loop while being anally perforated by Jerry Falwell in the fires of blackest Hell.

Holy mackerel!

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:43 PM
Oh, God. I can't even take a shot at awful Derek Carr without you getting your feelings hurt.

I don't give a shit about Derek Carr; I (wrongly) expected that people on a football message board might be able to offer insight on a football topic rather than offering tangential bullshit.

Hootie is right. This place is the fucking dregs of football discussion. Not only can people not read, they can't even formulate a cogent thought pertaining to a pretty simple question.

Pitt Gorilla
01-09-2015, 01:43 PM
Wait, what?

That team was steadily declining during the late 90s. It failed to make the playoffs in 1999, resulting in Pete Carroll being fired. In 2000, burdened with a terrible cap situation, Belichick cleaned house, and as a result went 5-11.

Coming off that season, some magazine (SI?) named the Patriots the least talented roster in the NFL.

In 2001 they started 0-2 and Bledsoe was hurt in their second game and Brady became the starter. They crushed the Colts (Manning, heh), then lost the next one to be 1-3. Then theyw ent on a run due to a good (not great) defense and a very efficient and mistake-free offense, and quite alot of luck.

They were NOT a championship team before Brady -- they were a team with a few good pieces, and alot of warm bodies, that Belichick and Brady raised to heights that absolutely NOBODY predicted.i stand corrected. It seemed like they weren't too far removed from their playoff runs, but it appears they were.

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:43 PM
Not that guy. This guy

http://media.nj.com/giants_impact/photo/bill-parcellsjpg-dfbf987e5f0f1860.jpg

They're the same person as far as I'm concerned. They employ the same tired and meaningless words as their coaching/team-building mantra.

Whenever somebody like Parcells or Coughlin tries to teach the "secrets" of their coaching or team-building method, it's all fucking bullshit. Rarely can somebody replicate their secrets or suggestions effectively because they're not the same people.

Let's say you could get a major in football coaching at a university or college. The program would employ guys like Parcells and Coughlin to do their little spiels and assign reading from dudes like Lombardi and all that. Theoretically, anybody should be able to go through that program and come out as a great football coach.

That's not the case. In fact, it rarely is. Scott Pioli strikes me as somebody who took all those Parcells platitudes you just wrote about from the autobiography, ingrained them, studied them, and then came out and believed he could build a team using that garbage.

It doesn't really work that way.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:44 PM
No, really? What did I not comprehend? I read all the words, I understood all the words. What are you looking for in a response?

If you understood all the words you wouldn't need to ask the question again. It's pretty clearly stated in the OP. Hence reading comprehension.

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:46 PM
We're supposed to say that they would all fail with the Jags.

You might be the biggest troll on this forum since LAChieffan was running his Cassel-loving mouth constantly.

Beef Supreme
01-09-2015, 01:46 PM
I don't give a shit about Derek Carr; I (wrongly) expected that people on a football message board might be able to offer insight on a football topic rather than offering tangential bullshit.

Hootie is right. This place is the fucking dregs of football discussion. Not only can people not read, they can't even formulate a cogent thought pertaining to a pretty simple question.

I observed at least nine questions in your original post.

Iconic
01-09-2015, 01:48 PM
This thread is exactly why I'm alright with Reid staying with the Chiefs. Yes he has his shortcomings but I'm 100% certain he will find and develop us a true QBOTF. Bank on it bitches.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:49 PM
I don't give a shit about Derek Carr; I (wrongly) expected that people on a football message board might be able to offer insight on a football topic rather than offering tangential bullshit.

Hootie is right. This place is the fucking dregs of football discussion. Not only can people not read, they can't even formulate a cogent thought pertaining to a pretty simple question.

Sensitive

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 01:51 PM
You might be the biggest troll on this forum since LAChieffan was running his Cassel-loving mouth constantly.

You're like OTWP from 2009. Hamas is your daddy.

rico
01-09-2015, 01:51 PM
This isn't about Gabbert but bad situations:

Put the remaining playoff QBs on the 2011 Jags with Jack of the River as head coach:

Russell Wilson
Peyton Manning
Andrew Luck
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo
Cam Newton

Same players all around otherwise. What happens to that player? The team? His development?

I think Wilson, Manning (although he sucked ass as a rookie, if I'm not mistaken), Luck and Newton would have been, at the least, serviceable. It's so hard telling with Rodgers, given the way they developed him via holding a clipboard right out the chute. I'm assuming those years holding the clipboard benefited him substantially. I think Brady walked in to a great situation and flourished from there...continued to accelerate and was probably fortunate in the confidence department given the circumstances. I think rookie Brady would have sucked ass on the 2011 Jags. I think Romo and Flacco would have sucked on that team as rookies, as well.

O.city
01-09-2015, 01:51 PM
Bill Parcells thought and sold Scott Pioli that Jon Baldwin was every bit as good as Julio Jones.

Bill Parcells can eat a bag of dicks.

Belicheck, not parcells

notorious
01-09-2015, 01:53 PM
Andrew Luck and Elway, maybe Peyton.



They took shit teams and are the reason they became good.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 01:54 PM
May you watch everything you've ever loved die miserably on an endless loop while being anally perforated by Jerry Falwell in the fires of blackest Hell.

Ditto.

Here, let me help you speed up your descent into the cauldron...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1532481/jags26.gif

O.city
01-09-2015, 01:55 PM
Not all Busta are created equal, or that's the way I look at it.

Ciaching, philosophy and most importantly, development after a prospect is picked is more important than what a prospect brings to the table.

JaMarcus was a bust, probably everywhere. Sanchez, under say, the same tutelage as Rodgers go could have been a stud.

Situation matters more than simple pluck, plug and play. But that's too hard for the masses to understand and employ as a thought process.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:55 PM
I think Flacco ends up a mediocre QB at best there. With a lesser defense, an equivalent (possibly better) running game, a porous OL, and weak skill position players I think he ingrains a lot of bad habits, and ends up as a strong-armed journeyman.

Newton is fine. His coach is terrible, which might hurt, but he is a dynamic enough athlete for a competent OC to use zone read principles with a younger version of MJD to make for a passable offense.

Luck and Manning are both fine. The teams they inherited as rookies weren't much different.

I don't know about Rodgers. There used to be a huge stigma about Tedford QBs. How much of what Rodgers has become is a result of getting time to learn the pro game and acclimate to it from 2005-2007?

Romo gets eaten alive by the jump in the level of competition. Like Rodgers, he was also afforded time to learn and develop.

I'm not sure about Brady. With his build in 2000, I see him getting murdered behind that Jags line, but he has always had so much confidence that I'm not sure it really shakes him. Nevertheless, going from Belichick to Del Rio is like going from Dean Smith to Frank Haith. That would surely hurt.

Wilson has skill position players in the same ballpark, but a far, far better coach and the defenses are light years apart. What happens if Russell Wilson has to throw it 45 times a game behind a bad OL with an incompetent coach?

RealSNR
01-09-2015, 01:56 PM
You're like OTWP from 2009. Hamas is your daddy.

Until you actually respond to the OP instead of just talking about the poster, you're trolling.

Keep in mind, I'm giving you credit by calling you a troll. I'm still not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if you're actually this stupid.

Jimmya
01-09-2015, 01:56 PM
The story of Tony Romo continues to be told!

O.city
01-09-2015, 01:57 PM
What Hamas is implying about gabbert, I think, is that had he gone to a competent franchise and system that could have tought him better fundamentals, would that have allowed his talent to come full circle.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 01:59 PM
What Hamas is implying about gabbert, I think, is that had he gone to a competent franchise and system that could have tought him better fundamentals, would that have allowed his talent to come full circle.

I'm implying is that it's unknowable. Maybe he's still a terrible QB. Maybe he becomes a great player. But Gabbert is just an example of a larger question: how much does talent matter vs. coaching and organizational stability/philosophy?

Given that we don't know, perhaps we have to fine tune our analyses of these players somewhat. It's easy to say that one guy is great and another is terrible, but it's rare that we actually factor in the situation, scheme, and coaching into it, especially here.

Titty Meat
01-09-2015, 01:59 PM
Although you can make an argument Gabbert would bust anywhere. He was the same abortion with the 49ers this year.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 02:00 PM
i stand corrected. It seemed like they weren't too far removed from their playoff runs, but it appears they were.


I don't want to make it seem like they had sucked forever. BAsically, here's the history:

1993 -- Patriots get Parcells, draft Bledsoe, and start building a core. They suck that year but Parcells is turning things around.

1994 -- Kraft buys team. Pats draft Willie McGinest. Go to playoffs.

1995 -- team drafts Ty Law (good from the bat), Ted Johnson (ditto), Curtis Martin (duh), but takes a step back, and misses the playoffs.

1996 -- Patriots draft Terry Glenn, Lawyer Milloy and Tedy Bruschi, and sign Adam Vinatieri, go to Super Bowl and lose.

1997 -- Parcells leaves, Pete Carroll hired. Team goes 10-6, makes playoffs, wins one playoff game, then loses in divisional round. BAD DRAFT

1998 -- Parcells steals Curtis Martin. Team goes 9-7, makes playoffs, one and done. BAD DRAFT

1999 -- Team goes 8-8, misses playoffs. Is in cap hell. Has another bad draft. Grier and Carroll are fired at end of season. Belichick comes in.

At this point, they have a core nucleus of some very good players -- Bledsoe, McGinest, Bruschi, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri and Terry Glenn, to build around, but the roster was thin, and the salary cap is out of control so Belichick has to whack alot of good but not great veterans and rebuild from the ground up to repair the damage Grier had done.

Since he was fired by teh Patriots, Grier has been the associate director of pro scouting for the Texans. He has never gone to another team, or moved up the ladder. He was obviously WAY over his head as GM of the Patriots, and his pitiful drafts reflect that.

O.city
01-09-2015, 02:03 PM
I think Flacco ends up a mediocre QB at best there. With a lesser defense, an equivalent (possibly better) running game, a porous OL, and weak skill position players I think he ingrains a lot of bad habits, and ends up as a strong-armed journeyman.

Newton is fine. His coach is terrible, which might hurt, but he is a dynamic enough athlete for a competent OC to use zone read principles with a younger version of MJD to make for a passable offense.

Luck and Manning are both fine. The teams they inherited as rookies weren't much different.

I don't know about Rodgers. There used to be a huge stigma about Tedford QBs. How much of what Rodgers has become is a result of getting time to learn the pro game and acclimate to it from 2005-2007?

Romo gets eaten alive by the jump in the level of competition. Like Rodgers, he was also afforded time to learn and develop.

I'm not sure about Brady. With his build in 2000, I see him getting murdered behind that Jags line, but he has always had so much confidence that I'm not sure it really shakes him. Nevertheless, going from Belichick to Del Rio is like going from Dean Smith to Frank Haith. That would surely hurt.

Wilson has skill position players in the same ballpark, but a far, far better coach and the defenses are light years apart. What happens if Russell Wilson has to throw it 45 times a game behind a bad OL with an incompetent coach?

As much as people here bitch about Alex smith, which some of it being warranted, they sometimes fail to look around the league at qb play.

So many guys are helped so much by what and who is around them.

Brady, ino, isn't bray without belicheck. Not because he isn't talented smart etc, but that he probably never gets the chance to be what he is.

Luck and Manning and freaks of nature. Kind of like watt at de. He could/would be a hofer anywhere.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 02:04 PM
Until you actually respond to the OP instead of just talking about the poster, you're trolling.

Keep in mind, I'm giving you credit by calling you a troll. I'm still not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if you're actually this stupid.

I didn't even take a jab at Hamas/Gabbert, which apparently is touchy subject. Just made a quick point about Carr and then briefly touched on the OP with a take on Luck and a shitty situations (Young). Does that really offend you? Hamas wants to call out my comprehension for making an off-topic comment about Carr, that's fine, but I'm not going to ignore his butthurtedness

O.city
01-09-2015, 02:06 PM
I'm implying is that it's unknowable. Maybe he's still a terrible QB. Maybe he becomes a great player. But Gabbert is just an example of a larger question: how much does talent matter vs. coaching and organizational stability/philosophy?

Given that we don't know, perhaps we have to fine tune our analyses of these players somewhat. It's easy to say that one guy is great and another is terrible, but it's rare that we actually factor in the situation, scheme, and coaching into it, especially here.

I agree, I've brought this up before.

With the league being where it is now, I think coaching and philosophy are more important than talent, but it can only go so far alone.

To be at the top, it's gotta be great coaching, great philosphy, even better development, and atleast average talent or better.

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 02:06 PM
They're the same person as far as I'm concerned. They employ the same tired and meaningless words as their coaching/team-building mantra.

Bill Parcells and Scott Pioli are the same person? Really? REALLY? Are you thinking about what you're saying?

Whenever somebody like Parcells or Coughlin tries to teach the "secrets" of their coaching or team-building method, it's all fucking bullshit. Rarely can somebody replicate their secrets or suggestions effectively because they're not the same people.

It's not necessarily a "secret", it's a system. And if that system is implemented properly, and the person can pull it off (which takes ability and some luck) then a team can flourish. The system doesn't work without skill and ability behind it. But a poor system can't work regardless.

Let's say you could get a major in football coaching at a university or college. The program would employ guys like Parcells and Coughlin to do their little spiels and assign reading from dudes like Lombardi and all that. Theoretically, anybody should be able to go through that program and come out as a great football coach.

Assuming they are willing to work hard etc., then probably yes, but not necessarily a great HEAD football coach.

That's not the case. In fact, it rarely is. Scott Pioli strikes me as somebody who took all those Parcells platitudes you just wrote about from the autobiography, ingrained them, studied them, and then came out and believed he could build a team using that garbage.

It doesn't really work that way.

You can build a team using that "garbage". **PIOLI** couldn't, for a variety of reasons, but the system works. It's proven. It's the same system the Giants used when Accorsi and Young and Parcells built champions there. Then it took the Patriots to the Super Bowl. Then Coughlin flourished with it. Belichick has also flourished iwth it, rebuilding the entire team around Brady multiple times. And Parcells turned four dead-as-doornails franchises and went to the playoffs with each one.

But yes, personalities matter too. The system doesn't work in isolation.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
01-09-2015, 02:11 PM
At the opposite end of the discussion, I think Stafford would have been much better in the right situation. I think he'll just be 'good' QB that beats up on bad teams for his entire career. I know people feel the same way about Mark Sanchez. Anyone else? Josh Freeman? Jake Locker?

Amnorix
01-09-2015, 02:12 PM
Bill Parcells thought and sold Scott Pioli that Jon Baldwin was every bit as good as Julio Jones.

Bill Parcells can eat a bag of dicks.

Belicheck, not parcells


I don't know. Could have been Parcells also, who "counsels" his former guys, including his son-in-law, Pioli.

But putting that aside -- whether it was Belichick or Parcells, did htey really say Baldwin was "every bit as good", or did they say they wouldn't trade so many picks for Jones because Baldwin was comparable?

O.city
01-09-2015, 02:13 PM
I don't think so in regards to Stafford, up to this point I don't know that he has the mentality to improve what he needs to improve.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 02:16 PM
I'm implying is that it's unknowable. Maybe he's still a terrible QB. Maybe he becomes a great player. But Gabbert is just an example of a larger question: how much does talent matter vs. coaching and organizational stability/philosophy?

http://archive.azcentral.com/i/sized/7/D/3/e298/j350/PHP495AE7932A3D7.jpg
http://www.pigskinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/joe-montana-chiefs.jpeg
http://michaelguberti.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/0.jpg
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/2677882f3f0a7fdad306b940134ee5958701660b/c=39-0-3821-2843&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2014/02/01//1391298616000-XXX-c01-manning-09.jpg

Given that we don't know, perhaps we have to fine tune our analyses of these players somewhat. It's easy to say that one guy is great and another is terrible, but it's rare that we actually factor in the situation, scheme, and coaching into it, especially here.

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/530277/68681_ravens_redskins_football.jpg
http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4eb8089c69bedda158000010/carson-palmer-has-been-even-more-terrible-than-anyone-could-have-imagined.jpg
http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/drew_bledsoe_2006_01_01.jpg

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-09-2015, 02:17 PM
I don't think so in regards to Stafford, up to this point I don't know that he has the mentality to improve what he needs to improve.

Could you pick worse head coaches, though? Jim Schwartz was an absolute abomination and Jim Caldwell is a fucking clown. Caldwell is a lobotomized Herm.

Stafford might never be great because he might not be a huge self-motivator, but I also think if he went to a team with a good head coach that wasn't a delusional jackass maniac, he could have ended up much, much better.

Right now, he reminds me of a QB version of Rudy Gay.

O.city
01-09-2015, 02:20 PM
Could you pick worse head coaches, though? Jim Schwartz was an absolute abomination and Jim Caldwell is a ****ing clown. Caldwell is a lobotomized Herm.

Stafford might never be great because he might not be a huge self-motivator, but I also think if he went to a team with a good head coach that wasn't a delusional jackass maniac, he could have ended up much, much better.

Right now, he reminds me of a QB version of Rudy Gay.

I'd say that's on par.

But his remarks about not wanting to work in his mechanics etc were a bit troubling.

I think you could probably switch him and Flacco and therr wouldnt be a whole lot of difference of what you see from the teams and what they've done now.

There's just so much about the game and what goes on that we don't know.

Frankly, it's why I kinda resorted back to being a true fannish kind of spectator.

Saccopoo
01-09-2015, 02:21 PM
Could you pick worse head coaches, though? Jim Schwartz was an absolute abomination and Jim Caldwell is a fucking clown. Caldwell is a lobotomized Herm.

Stafford might never be great because he might not be a huge self-motivator, but I also think if he went to a team with a good head coach that wasn't a delusional jackass maniac, he could have ended up much, much better.

Right now, he reminds me of a QB version of Rudy Gay.

http://www.behindthebasket.com/storage/post-images/DWilkins%20dunk.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1290591419736

Simply Red
01-09-2015, 04:32 PM
Newton is already doing okay with a shitty head coach and no talent around him on offense. It was basically the same except he lacked a defense as well when he was a rookie in 2011.

He would have been just fine on the Jags

Your fair n balanced approach to this matter is kind - very diplomatic. :clap:

TimBone
01-09-2015, 04:51 PM
May you watch everything you've ever loved die miserably on an endless loop while being anally perforated by Jerry Falwell in the fires of blackest Hell.
Still better than watching an Alex Smith performance.

MagicHef
01-09-2015, 05:26 PM
Luck is a factor in everything

You just made me picture an omnipresent football caveman.

I liked it.

O.city
01-10-2015, 10:55 AM
Cian Fahey is talking about this on Twitter, well sorta, right now

Gonzo
01-10-2015, 11:35 AM
Gabbert was thrown to the wolves. Bad team, bad coaching, poor morale and just an all around shitty situation. I don't think any QB could go into that and be successful, really. Maybe someone like Luck could pull them to 6-10, maybe even .500 but I doubt it.
Rogers and Luck as rookies on that team would've both thrown for big yards but they would've spent a lot of time on the ground and thrown for more picks than TD's.

Gabbert is permanently scarred for that and he wasn't that great to begin with, (he's better than we've seen, though). See: David Carr with the Texans. That kid was fucking ruined and he had some serious potential.

Mr. Flopnuts
01-10-2015, 11:39 AM
At the opposite end of the discussion, I think Stafford would have been much better in the right situation. I think he'll just be 'good' QB that beats up on bad teams for his entire career. I know people feel the same way about Mark Sanchez. Anyone else? Josh Freeman? Jake Locker?

Locker is made of glass. That said, he's absolutely a victim of his environment.

O.city
01-10-2015, 11:40 AM
Rodgers as a rookie and prospect is completely different than today's Rodgers

Mr. Flopnuts
01-10-2015, 11:44 AM
In regards to the OP, I've always thought that coaching and development play a large role in star quality.

Bowser
01-10-2015, 11:53 AM
Another way to look at this - how many highly touted college QB's have been drafted by shit organizations at the top of drafts only to flame out? For every Andrew Luck, there has to be half a dozen RGIII's.

Bowser
01-10-2015, 11:55 AM
And Gabbert had all the physical tools, but he wasn't anywhere near ready for the NFL, especially considering the spread option he ran at Mizzou. He would have been well served to go the Aaron Rodgers route and wait a season or three before getting thrown into the fire. But that Jags team was and is EbolaAids. Few rookie QB's could go in there and thrive.

Buehler445
01-10-2015, 12:14 PM
Personally I think it takes a huge combination of things to go right for a QB to succeed. At least initially, they all have to be there.

Talent
Attitude/work ethic
Brains
Coaching/system
Confidence

Talent Obviously talent has to be there. But it doesn't necessarily have to be all world talent. You have to have an Arm, but you don't have to have Rodgers' arm. You have to be able to move in the pocket, but you don't necessarily have to run. Tom Brady is slow as balls. But like Palko showed us, it doesn't matter how much you love the game and are smart, if you can't throw, you can't play.

Attitude/Work Ethic There aren't many if any at all dudes that don't have to work. Some of it ties into coaching, but most of this side has to come from the player. Coaching can squash it, enable it, or overcome some of it, but it has to be there.

Brains Not often is there a time in which a dumbass will due. Tacks made some wins with Young, you could argue Newton is a dumbass. But I don't think dumbasses can win over the long term, and they have to really be physically dominating to even get close. I don't think you have to be as smart as Manning, but the good ones are set between the ears.

Coaching/System It's hard to tie down what works and what doesn't, but I think it is mostly the ability to mesh with the player and put him in the best position to succeed. Kind of like how Brees was average in SD and elite in NO. Cassel can win 10 games in NE. Vick can look all world in Philly and be Vick everywhere else. Coaching can have an effect on a lot of other things, attitude, confidence, etc.

Confidence This ties into a lot of other things too. I think early success, hits, coaching, other teammates, etc. This can have an enlarged effect on mobile guys, because they bail on the reads too early, but even pocket guys rush the pass or forfeit reads because the confidence isn't there.

To me, with new guys, all this has to be there. It is very uncommon for guys to overcome any of these things. Manning is the only thing I can think of. Mora was a tool and then the fucking ass joke of a coach Dungy didn't do Manning any favors. And the first year, Indy was pretty shitty. Maybe Brees is in there, I don't know much about SD when he came in.

Any one of those things can cause a young guy to flounder, and typically, if they flounder hard in their first few years, the confidence can't come back. Accordingly, I think the more years starting, the greater the confidence is. Same with Pro-Style offenses. Not that young guys or spread guys can't make it, but there is less margin for error.

I guess that puts my answer as I doubt many guys could do much if they came into the Jax situation. I think Manning probably would have been OK.

I think Wilson has a lot of confidence and maybe could have made it, but Carroll is probably a big part of his successful transition.

Rodgers is a tough read, because you don't know how much of what he is because of sitting or because hes a BAMF. And he's played in a lot of bad Pack teams in his career. He might be physically gifted enough to keep himself off the ground some there and done some things.

Newton maybe could do it. They're probably not much different. But then you're looking at a pretty low standard of "success."

Maybe Brees, I don't know.

I think Roethisberger has a shot, but I think he got some good coaching to get from Rookie Roethisberger to what he is now.

Brady is too immobile and would have been crushed behind that line. Same for Eli. Same for Dalton. Same for Flacco.

My solid answer is without ALL 5 of those things in the first few years, or a generational talent, you're looking at a busted QB.

Sweet Daddy Hate
01-10-2015, 12:42 PM
He should have stayed in school.

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2015, 12:46 PM
It's not about Gabbert. It's about bad teams and fits and how they obscure the quality of players they get through organizational incompetence.

Look at it from the other perspective:

What do you all think happens to Griffin if the Seahawks draft him?

'Hamas' Jenkins
01-10-2015, 12:47 PM
Personally I think it takes a huge combination of things to go right for a QB to succeed. At least initially, they all have to be there.

Talent
Attitude/work ethic
Brains
Coaching/system
Confidence

Talent Obviously talent has to be there. But it doesn't necessarily have to be all world talent. You have to have an Arm, but you don't have to have Rodgers' arm. You have to be able to move in the pocket, but you don't necessarily have to run. Tom Brady is slow as balls. But like Palko showed us, it doesn't matter how much you love the game and are smart, if you can't throw, you can't play.

Attitude/Work Ethic There aren't many if any at all dudes that don't have to work. Some of it ties into coaching, but most of this side has to come from the player. Coaching can squash it, enable it, or overcome some of it, but it has to be there.

Brains Not often is there a time in which a dumbass will due. Tacks made some wins with Young, you could argue Newton is a dumbass. But I don't think dumbasses can win over the long term, and they have to really be physically dominating to even get close. I don't think you have to be as smart as Manning, but the good ones are set between the ears.

Coaching/System It's hard to tie down what works and what doesn't, but I think it is mostly the ability to mesh with the player and put him in the best position to succeed. Kind of like how Brees was average in SD and elite in NO. Cassel can win 10 games in NE. Vick can look all world in Philly and be Vick everywhere else. Coaching can have an effect on a lot of other things, attitude, confidence, etc.

Confidence This ties into a lot of other things too. I think early success, hits, coaching, other teammates, etc. This can have an enlarged effect on mobile guys, because they bail on the reads too early, but even pocket guys rush the pass or forfeit reads because the confidence isn't there.

To me, with new guys, all this has to be there. It is very uncommon for guys to overcome any of these things. Manning is the only thing I can think of. Mora was a tool and then the fucking ass joke of a coach Dungy didn't do Manning any favors. And the first year, Indy was pretty shitty. Maybe Brees is in there, I don't know much about SD when he came in.

Any one of those things can cause a young guy to flounder, and typically, if they flounder hard in their first few years, the confidence can't come back. Accordingly, I think the more years starting, the greater the confidence is. Same with Pro-Style offenses. Not that young guys or spread guys can't make it, but there is less margin for error.

I guess that puts my answer as I doubt many guys could do much if they came into the Jax situation. I think Manning probably would have been OK.

I think Wilson has a lot of confidence and maybe could have made it, but Carroll is probably a big part of his successful transition.

Rodgers is a tough read, because you don't know how much of what he is because of sitting or because hes a BAMF. And he's played in a lot of bad Pack teams in his career. He might be physically gifted enough to keep himself off the ground some there and done some things.

Newton maybe could do it. They're probably not much different. But then you're looking at a pretty low standard of "success."

Maybe Brees, I don't know.

I think Roethisberger has a shot, but I think he got some good coaching to get from Rookie Roethisberger to what he is now.

Brady is too immobile and would have been crushed behind that line. Same for Eli. Same for Dalton. Same for Flacco.

My solid answer is without ALL 5 of those things in the first few years, or a generational talent, you're looking at a busted QB.

A+

On prompt, focused, and developed. Buehler, your post stands above the sewage infesting this thread. Please proceed to the left and collect your rheps.

O.city
01-10-2015, 12:52 PM
I think a big part of it is confidence but not just having it but building it from the beginning.

Alot of teams ruin these giusto by getting them in and having them do what the coaches system does from the get go, without really doing what the player excels at.

Shanny did a great job with RGIII to start allowing him to be successful from the get go. He just didn't progress him along to the nuances as teams adjusted. Some of that is on the player as well.

Bowser
01-10-2015, 01:01 PM
It's not about Gabbert. It's about bad teams and fits and how they obscure the quality of players they get through organizational incompetence.

Look at it from the other perspective:

What do you all think happens to Griffin if the Seahawks draft him?

RGIII would rape faces with Carroll. Hell, under the Shanahans he won OROY because they tailored an offense to his strengths (Alfred Morris helped matters). That's exactly what the Seahawks have down with Wilson - put him in positions to succeed with a focus on his strengths (scrambling, downfield accuracy, the ability to kill man coverage with his legs).

To bring it back to Gabbert and the Jags (even though it was your point of emphasis), that Jags coaching staff forced Gabbert into a system he was neither familiar or comfortable with. A further observation/question is how much did those first couple of seasons fuck up Gabbert's head going forward.

Buehler445
01-10-2015, 01:55 PM
RGIII would rape faces with Carroll. Hell, under the Shanahans he won OROY because they tailored an offense to his strengths (Alfred Morris helped matters). That's exactly what the Seahawks have down with Wilson - put him in positions to succeed with a focus on his strengths (scrambling, downfield accuracy, the ability to kill man coverage with his legs).

To bring it back to Gabbert and the Jags (even though it was your point of emphasis), that Jags coaching staff forced Gabbert into a system he was neither familiar or comfortable with. A further observation/question is how much did those first couple of seasons fuck up Gabbert's head going forward.

To me the RGIII thing matters how much the reports of his Dad being into shit, and RGIII going behind the coaches back to the owner and shit is legit and whether he would have done it in Seattle.

He does that shit and doesn't buy in, he's destined to fail IMO.

Otter
01-10-2015, 02:00 PM
I still think Jake Plummer would have been a hell of a QB if he would have had more time to sit on the bench and learn the game. No real concrete evidence outside of watched him play in college quiet a bit. It's a rare specimen that can go from college (banging sorority girls, keg parties) to the spotlight of starting in the NFL without at least a little bit of a buffer.

O.city
01-10-2015, 02:01 PM
So reports are that Russel Wilson is preparing for his next contract to make him the highest paid qb in the nfl.

Not sure I'd do that.