PFT: Chiefs, Houston to try again this week

[Dante84]

Chiefs, Houston to try again this week (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/15/chiefs-houston-to-try-again-this-week/)
Posted by Mike Florio on February 15, 2015, 10:44 AM EST

In the past, the Chiefs and linebacker Justin Houston have tried, without success, to work out a new contract. In the near future, they’ll try again.

Per a league source, the Chiefs and Houston’s agent, Joel Segal, will make another attempt early in the week at making progress on a long-term deal. The Chiefs are expected to apply the franchise tag to Houston, who racked up 22 sacks in 2014, absent an agreement.

Houston had been expected to sign the franchise tender immediately. It’s possible that a new strategy will emerge if the coming talks fail to result in Houston receiving the kind of contract he believes he deserves.


Let's hope they can get this thing buttoned up.


UPDATE:
Chiefs, Houston to talk Tuesday (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/18/chiefs-houston-to-talk-tuesday/)

As expected, the Chiefs and linebacker Justin Houston will make one last effort to work out a long-term deal, before Kansas City applies the franchise tag.

Per a league source, Chiefs G.M. John Dorsey and Houston’s agent, Joel Segal, are scheduled to meet on Tuesday in Indianapolis to discuss a long-term deal for the man who racked up 22.0 sacks in 2014.

Previously, Houston’s plan was to immediately sign the franchise tender if/when the Chiefs apply it. Now, Houston may have a different plan in mind, if a long-term deal isn’t worked out.

The Chiefs cleared some cap space on Tuesday by dumping receiver Donnie Avery and receiver A.J. Jenkins. That could be used to pay Houston on a long-term deal, or it could be used to fund his one-year franchise tag.

I'm assuming this means next Tuesday, Feb. 24th.

[ILChief]

If they could get this done, I would franchise Rodney Hudson

[penbrook]

If they could get this done, I would franchise Rodney Hudson

For 10 mil yea right

[milkman]

For 10 mil yea right

The top 5 salaries for centers average 10 mil?

[penbrook]

The top 5 salaries for centers average 10 mil?

My bad Alex Woods contract pays him 10 mil a year but the top 5 centers Hudson would be looking at around 7.5 mil

[ChiliConCarnage]

I'm not hopeful. Houstons coming off what'll likely be the best season of his career. That's a tough time to negotiate for the club

[notorious]

I'm not hopeful. Houstons coming off what'll likely be the best season of his career. That's a tough time to negotiate for the club

True, but a guy that can rush the QB like him are nearly impossible to find.



Think about this: He had 2 1/2 times the total sacks our entire team had in 2008.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

Trade him! /dumbass fans

[Reaper16]

At this point they may have to go in vitro.

[Willie Lanier]

Thanks for posting I appreciate actual football content

[Chiefs Pantalones]

True, but a guy that can rush the QB like him are nearly impossible to find.



Think about this: He had 2 1/2 times the total sacks our entire team had in 2008.

It's not just about him getting after the QB. He's the most complete 3/4 OLB in the game. Exceptional in coverage and stopping the run. Only bafoon franchises let players like Houston go. I'm not saying we will let him go, I'm confident a deal will get worked out. Dorsey/Reid know how special he is.

[notorious]

It's not just about him getting after the QB. He's the most complete 3/4 OLB in the game. Exceptional in coverage and stopping the run. Only bafoon franchises let players like Houston go. I'm not saying we will let him go, I'm confident a deal will get worked out. Dorsey/Reid know how special he is.

Absolutely.

[beach tribe]

I'm not hopeful. Houstons coming off what'll likely be the best season of his career. That's a tough time to negotiate for the club

Which is exactly why a deal will not be reached nor will have ever been the organizations intentions all along..with good reason.
They are going to leak and insinuate that they are going to offer him the moon, drag out the process until it's too late and then promise him that if he plays on the FT he will be handsomely rewarded....and he will, but not what he can get right now.
Dorsey's MO thus far.

[Willie Lanier]

It's not just about him getting after the QB. He's the most complete 3/4 OLB in the game. Exceptional in coverage and stopping the run. Only bafoon franchises let players like Houston go. I'm not saying we will let him go, I'm confident a deal will get worked out. Dorsey/Reid know how special he is.

:thumb:

[Discuss Thrower]

The top 5 salaries for centers average 10 mil?

overthecap sez $9.8m to franchise a center.

[TribalElder]

Pay him and quit fucking around, we got other shit to do

Super Bowl L is ours!

[BigBeauford]

At this point they may have to go in vitro.

:LOL: Beat me to it.

[RunKC]

If Dorsey can get this done this early, it will be the most impressive thing he's done as GM.

[kccrow]

The top 5 salaries for centers average 10 mil?

It doesn't go by Center, it goes by top 5 offensive lineman. The top 5 tackles, guards, and centers average north of 10 million. Additionally, the average salary is taken as a percentage of the cap and then applied to the new league year's cap. IIRC the tag will be almost 12 million (11.7 something like that). If the salary cap is higher, then so too will be that figure. One figure I saw had an estimated cap of 143 million with O-line tag at 12.9 million. I don't think KC is tagging Hudson.

[RealSNR]

Thanks for posting I appreciate actual football content

It's the offseason. If you want football content, then post some yourself, fuckface.

[BigMeatballDave]

Pay him and quit fucking around, we got other shit to do

Super Bowl L is ours!

Tag Deadline isn't until the 2nd, I think. There is no need to rush this.

[kccrow]

It's the offseason. If you want football content, then post some yourself, fuckface.

What is a "fuckface" exactly? I'm just a bit curious. Is that a fucked up face? Is it like a fuck face, similar to the "Oh-Face?" This is a must discuss topic.

[Willie Lanier]

It's the offseason. If you want football content, then post some yourself, ****face.

Well stated, you win :clap:

[RealSNR]

What is a "fuckface" exactly? I'm just a bit curious. Is that a fucked up face? Is it like a fuck face, similar to the "Oh-Face?" This is a must discuss topic.

It's a face full of fuck.

And not the good kind, either.

[Willie Lanier]

It's a face full of ****.

And not the good kind, either.

Come on man I admitted defeat in the conversation... Give me a break

[Saccopoo]

True, but a guy that can rush the QB like him are nearly impossible to find.



Think about this: He had 2 1/2 times the total sacks our entire team had in 2008.

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...

[ThaVirus]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...


You're a fucking idiot.

[chiefzilla1501]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that if the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...

But we should throw that same amount of money at offensive linemen. Got it.

Good lord, I don't even know where to start with the dumbassery of this. Especially with the incredible stupidity around the very directly implied statement that Houston only influences a game 1.5 times.

[notorious]

Sigh.

[RealSNR]

Come on man I admitted defeat in the conversation... Give me a break

Sorry. I'm feeling so jacked up right now my head is ready to explode

[RealSNR]

According to Sac:

-Justin Houston is not as good as having Rob Ninkovich and one or two other mediocre pass rushers on the team because Patriots and Seahawks

-Dontari Poe sucks and is overrated

-Alex Smith is God

[Easy 6]

Which is exactly why a deal will not be reached nor will have ever been the organizations intentions all along..with good reason.
They are going to leak and insinuate that they are going to offer him the moon, drag out the process until it's too late and then promise him that if he plays on the FT he will be handsomely rewarded....and he will, but not what he can get right now.
Dorsey's MO thus far.

This seems very likely.

[Saccopoo]

2014 NFL Sack Leaders (Top 20):

1. Justin Houston, KC; 22
2. J.J. Watt, HOU; 20.5
3. Elvis Dumervil, BAL; 17
4. Mario Williams, BUF; 14.5
4. Connor Barwin, PHI; 14.5
5. Von Miller, DEN; 14
6. Ryan Kerrigan, WSH; 13.5
7. Jason Pierre-Paul, NYG; 12.5
8. Terrell Suggs, BAL; 12
8. Everson Griffen, MIN; 12
9. Cameron Wake, MIA; 11.5
10. Paul Kruger, CLE; 11
10. Clay Matthews, GB; 11
11. Robert Quinn, STL; 10.5
12. DeMarcus Ware, DEN; 10
12. Willie Young, CHI; 10
12. Junior Galette, NO; 10
12. Marcell Dareus, BUF; 10
13. Jerry Hughes, BUF; 9.5
13. Vinny Curry, PHI; 9.5

A grand total of FIVE of the top 20 sack masters in the NFL in 2014 were on teams that were in the playoffs.

Top 10 Teams with most sacks in 2014:

1. Buffalo Bills
2. Baltimore Ravens
3. Philadelphia Eagles
4. New York Giants
5. Kansas City Chiefs
6. Jacksonville Jaguars
7. New York Jets
8. Detroit Lions
9. Denver Broncos
10. Green Bay Packers

Half. 50% are playoff teams.

Only one of which reached the conference championship games (Green Bay) and none in the Super Bowl.

Overrated...duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh...Overrated...duh, duh, duh, duh, duh...

Fans will jerk themselves silly over the sack stat. It does not mean jack shit to a teams success if it is applied to just a few entities on a team.

[Easy 6]

You have officially jumped the shark, Sac.

[BossChief]

Houston needs to agree to a deal where he gets a nice signing bonus and a roster bonus year 2 and the deal having really strong guarantees over the first 3-4 years.

The deal needs to say "we value you as one of the leagues top defenders and we want you here your whole career...but we want to win a championship and the cap is gonna be tight in 20-5 if we want to keep the core together and continue to bolster the roster"

The guy deserves this money.

Give it to him.

[Discuss Thrower]

Adding to what Sac is saying.. In the last five seasons teams that had a top 10 pass rusher in the league went a total of 20-16 in the playoffs in that span. New York and Green Bay account for eight of these wins in the years they won rings.

Half of these 50 guys were on teams that didn't qualify for the postseason.

It's not exhaustive but there seems to be smoke to Sacc's argument that having a sack leader doesn't correlate with playoff success.

[Saccopoo]

[QUOTE]According to Sac:

-Justin Houston is not as good as having Rob Ninkovich and one or two other mediocre pass rushers on the team because

Sacks aren't singularly exclusive to team success. 3rd down percentage, yards per game, penalty yards (lack thereof), yards per attempt (lower) are all more important that the sack.

-Dontari Poe sucks and is overrated because

He is too easily stood up and re-routed by single offensive linemen. He does not hold the gap well. He misses a lot of tackles. Teams constantly run at him because of this. He was a major reason that the team was ranked #27 in rushing yards allowed.

-Alex Smith is God

I don't think I've ever supported this claim. I think he's a good QB who needs a good (70%) offensive line to be effective. And the Chiefs didn't have one. Nor did they have a single receiver who was "good" in/for this system.

[Easy 6]

I dont care what the numbers say in this instance, numbers dont always tell the whole story.

Outside of quarterback, the most important factor in winning games in todays league is almost certainly a teams ability to harass, pressure, and sack the opposing teams QB.

[BossChief]

How many game managers won a championship without a premier pass rusher on their teams defense?

Also...Houston is FAR MORE than just a guy that got 22 sacks last year.

He is a monster against the run.

He is good in coverage.

He is almost unblock able.

[Discuss Thrower]

How many game managers won a championship without a premier pass rusher on their teams defense?

Also...Houston is FAR MORE than just a guy that got 22 sacks last year.

He is a monster against the run.

He is good in coverage.

He is almost unblock able.

Which is true.

But he's going to cost too much for this team that is in arguably the second year of a rebuild.

Also, to answer your first question: Baltimore won the SB with a game manager QB and four sack leaders who came in at #15, #38 #43 and #134 among the league that season.

[SAUTO]

Adding to what Sac is saying.. In the last five seasons teams that had a top 10 pass rusher in the league went a total of 20-16 in the playoffs in that span. New York and Green Bay account for eight of these wins in the years they won rings.

Half of these 50 guys were on teams that didn't qualify for the postseason.

It's not exhaustive but there seems to be smoke to Sacc's argument that having a sack leader doesn't correlate with playoff success.

Sacks are a deceiving stat.


It's all about pressure on the qb. It doesn't have to be a sack.


Pressure.

[Easy 6]

Sacks are a deceiving stat.


It's all about pressure on the qb. It doesn't have to be a sack.


Pressure.

Exactly.

[Discuss Thrower]

Sacks are a deceiving stat.


It's all about pressure on the qb. It doesn't have to be a sack.


Pressure.

All the pressure a defensive can muster doesn't mean jack to a guy who can get the ball out of his hands in under two seconds.

[Saccopoo]

Exactly.

Don't say that.

You just gave me shit for saying sacks aren't the end all, be all.

I've already said that constant pressure from a myriad of sources is more important than having a singular sack entity that you/a team is most assuredly going to overpay for.

I also agree that Houston is far more than just a sack guy alone. He's good in coverage and against the run. I think he's the best 34 OLB in the NFL. However, contractually, that position demands top dollar, which can, if not properly contracted, can, without a doubt, cripple a team. Especially a team which is seemingly on the verge of putting together a very solid team that is capable of making a playoff run. (Which I think the Chiefs are in the now.)

Your immediate knee jerk against my initial observations just goes to show how enamored the casual fan is with the "sack" statistic.

[BossChief]

Sacks are a deceiving stat.


It's all about pressure on the qb. It doesn't have to be a sack.


Pressure.

Guys like Houston help the whole defense in says you can't quantify with statistics.

They force opposing offenses to get the ball out quickly, basically scrapping 7 step drops and other long developing pass plays out of the equation.

That let's the corners play more free because they don't have to worry about the whole field as much, so they can focus on shutting down the shorter routes. It trickles down to the whole defense.

[RunKC]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...

This has got to be the dumbest shit I've ever read. The Seahawks won the SB last year because of constant pressure.
Did you not watch what happened when the Seahawks lost Cliff Avril in this SB?

The Giants won 2 SB's mostly because of the DL putting pressure on Tom Brady.

You think the Steelers D didn't take them to 3 SB's without amazing pressure from the front 7?

The only thing better than a pass rush is a franchise QB. That's it.

[RealSNR]

Because.....


Patriots and Seahawks.

[O.city]

Houston himself can or will potentially account for 14 sacks per year atleast, and that's being low side dl generous. more likely, he isn't even in his prime years yet, which means you'd probably be looking more 17 per year type average.

From one guy. Instead of 3 combined.

It's being tossed around like being able to sack the qb is a detriment to playoff success, when in fact it isn't necessarily black or white either way.

The game today as it stands, is basically defending the pass and being good enough against the run to make teams not commit to it.

If they do in fact pay Houston what he wants, whatever that may be, if he produces to that level (WAR type thinking), it doesn't really matter.

Sad as it is, the answer to why most of those teams sac mentioned didn't make the playoffs wasn't because of pass rush, it's because their qb was either a turnover machine, the offense sucked, both, or the coaching staff are all asshats.

[Saccopoo]

This has got to be the dumbest shit I've ever read. The Seahawks won the SB last year because of constant pressure.
Did you not watch what happened when the Seahawks lost Cliff Avril in this SB?

The Giants won 2 SB's mostly because of the DL putting pressure on Tom Brady.

You think the Steelers D didn't take them to 3 SB's without amazing pressure from the front 7?

The only thing better than a pass rush is a franchise QB. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccopoo

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

Apparently your reading comprehension isn't working correctly today.

[O.city]

It's weird to see people use stuff like "Dan Marino didn't win a SB so passing yards are overrated" rhetoric.

They didn't not win a SB because of what Marino did, obviously.

The Seahawks this season didn't have alot of sacks (top 10) but they had an all time great defensive backfield with elite DBs.

More than one way to skin a cat. I'm a big believer in figuring out what you are, building that area, then add pieces to others to make them stronger, or more preferably, allow that area you excel in to make others better.

[Easy 6]

Don't say that.

You just gave me shit for saying sacks aren't the end all, be all.

I've already said that constant pressure from a myriad of sources is more important than having a singular sack entity that you/a team is most assuredly going to overpay for.

I also agree that Houston is far more than just a sack guy alone. He's good in coverage and against the run. I think he's the best 34 OLB in the NFL. However, contractually, that position demands top dollar, which can, if not properly contracted, can, without a doubt, cripple a team. Especially a team which is seemingly on the verge of putting together a very solid team that is capable of making a playoff run. (Which I think the Chiefs are in the now.)

Your immediate knee jerk against my initial observations just goes to show how enamored the casual fan is with the "sack" statistic.

Sacks are just the most extreme expression of pressure, and no, they're not the end all be all... getting a QB off his spot, hurrying his throw, rendering him inaccurate, obscuring his vision downfield etc etc... are all more important than a sack.

I think the point you're missing about a "sack master", is that just like a great QB makes his offense better, raises their play... a master pass rusher does exactly the same for his defense. He makes everyone elses job that much easier because of the inordinate amount of attention the offense gives him.

Then throw in the other things you mention, like being great vs the run and great in coverage... and you have a guy legitimately worth superstar money.

[O.city]

Basically, this is a simple argument being made where stats are being used without context.

It's like saying "JJ Watt just had one of the most incredible seasons ever in the league, but the Texans didn't make the playoffs so you don't need that and it's not important".

Well, yeah you don't have to have that, but if you can get it, it makes things exponentially easier for other areas of your team.

[Saccopoo]

Sacks are just the most extreme expression of pressure, and no, they're not the end all be all... getting a QB off his spot, hurrying his throw, rendering him inaccurate, obscuring his vision downfield etc etc... are all more important than a sack.

I think the point you're missing about a "sack master", is that just like a great QB makes his offense better, raises their play... a master pass rusher does exactly the same for his defense. He makes everyone elses job that much easier because of the inordinate amount of attention the offense gives him.

Then throw in the other things you mention, like being great vs the run and great in coverage... and you have a guy legitimately worth superstar money.

Sure you do, but the problem with giving one guy the lion's share of the money means that a team is most likely going to be suffering in those other aspects because you have to low ball the remaining players in order to keep your team under the cap. It also effectively hamstrings the one All-Star because teams can now strategize for a singular player versus 11 guys.

53 dudes. The better all 53 dudes are is ultimately better than having a singular superstar, especially if that guy isn't a QB.

Look, I understand the importance of having a guy like Houston on the team and it's obvious that his impact was important in the success that the Chiefs had on defense this past season. However, he's coming off his rookie deal and it's going to cost a metric shit ton to have him equal that same level of production that the Chiefs just got on the cheap.

I know people say "Pay the man, he earned it!," but by doing so, you are going to significantly alter the dynamic of the team's salary cap and what they can do in terms of building the team to a playoff/championship level organization.

As well, having one guy that's not the QB get a lion's share of the payroll will create some level of derision on the team.

In addition, they just spent a first round pick on Dee Ford. Rather than pay Houston a king's ransom, I'd sooner like to see them actually use that first round pick and shore up the secondary and inside linebacker positions versus having to continue to shuffle out guys like Mays and Mauga and Owens and the like. I'll take 70% players at all positions versus a 99% player at one and 35%'ers everywhere else.

[Chiefshrink]

A sack is awesome if you can get it, but "pressure" is the key. Paraphrasing Walsh here but he did say,"the majority of championship teams have a pass rush in the 4th qrt".

[O.city]

Sure you do, but the problem with giving one guy the lion's share of the money means that a team is most likely going to be suffering in those other aspects because you have to low ball the remaining players in order to keep your team under the cap. It also effectively hamstrings the one All-Star because teams can now strategize for a singular player versus 11 guys.

53 dudes. The better all 53 dudes are is ultimately better than having a singular superstar, especially if that guy isn't a QB.

Look, I understand the importance of having a guy like Houston on the team and it's obvious that his impact was important in the success that the Chiefs had on defense this past season. However, he's coming off his rookie deal and it's going to cost a metric shit ton to have him equal that same level of production that the Chiefs just got on the cheap.

I know people say "Pay the man, he earned it!," but by doing so, you are going to significantly alter the dynamic of the team's salary cap and what they can do in terms of building the team to a playoff/championship level organization.

As well, having one guy that's not the QB get a lion's share of the payroll will create some level of derision on the team.

In addition, they just spent a first round pick on Dee Ford. Rather than pay Houston a king's ransom, I'd sooner like to see them actually use that first round pick and shore up the secondary and inside linebacker positions versus having to continue to shuffle out guys like Mays and Mauga and Owens and the like. I'll take 70% players at all positions versus a 99% player at one and 35%'ers everywhere else.

What does paying Houston have to do with drafting?

In the end, like I said, if they can get however much they pay Houston production out of Houston, it may Doesn't matter the price.

In the end, the draft is how you diffuse this situation. If they decide Houston is the guy to build the defense around, they can use the draft to get cheap talent to cycle around him and whoever.

People act as if these contracts are franchise killers, when today's nfl contracts are essentially 2 year deals based on what the guaranteed money is.

[chiefzilla1501]

Sure you do, but the problem with giving one guy the lion's share of the money means that a team is most likely going to be suffering in those other aspects because you have to low ball the remaining players in order to keep your team under the cap. It also effectively hamstrings the one All-Star because teams can now strategize for a singular player versus 11 guys.

53 dudes. The better all 53 dudes are is ultimately better than having a singular superstar, especially if that guy isn't a QB.

Look, I understand the importance of having a guy like Houston on the team and it's obvious that his impact was important in the success that the Chiefs had on defense this past season. However, he's coming off his rookie deal and it's going to cost a metric shit ton to have him equal that same level of production that the Chiefs just got on the cheap.

I know people say "Pay the man, he earned it!," but by doing so, you are going to significantly alter the dynamic of the team's salary cap and what they can do in terms of building the team to a playoff/championship level organization.

As well, having one guy that's not the QB get a lion's share of the payroll will create some level of derision on the team.

In addition, they just spent a first round pick on Dee Ford. Rather than pay Houston a king's ransom, I'd sooner like to see them actually use that first round pick and shore up the secondary and inside linebacker positions versus having to continue to shuffle out guys like Mays and Mauga and Owens and the like. I'll take 70% players at all positions versus a 99% player at one and 35%'ers everywhere else.

The Chiefs were the #2 ranked points defense often times trotting out a defense with Jamell Fleming, Jaye Howard, Mays, and Mauga in the starting lineup. Let's also not forget how bad the team looked last year when Houston was out or wasn't 100%.

Justin Houston is a player who makes everyone around him better. Different than a lot of highly paid players who are dependent on other people to make them better. For example... you can pay Peyton Manning a shitload of money because he's proven time and time again that he's an excellent QB even with a lousy supporting cast.

When you pay Peyton, you're upgrading your OL and WRs. Houston does the same for the Chiefs' secondary, which did very well this year even with minimal talent.

[Tribal Warfare]

When you pay Peyton, you're upgrading your OL and WRs. Houston does the same for the Chiefs' secondary, which did very well this year even with minimal talent.


Yep, you keep and sign elite players with great positional value. If anyone says anything is wrong or is selling something.

[keg in kc]

Franchises that want to win keep young elite players at key positions who aren't locker room problems, for a number of reasons. Not the least of which being it tells other players - whether they're future draft picks, future free agents or guys currently on the roster - that the franchise values and rewards performance.

[RunKC]

Apparently your reading comprehension isn't working correctly today.

Yes let's take a way the best of the "many" resources we have. JFC dude.

[Easy 6]

Sure you do, but the problem with giving one guy the lion's share of the money means that a team is most likely going to be suffering in those other aspects because you have to low ball the remaining players in order to keep your team under the cap. It also effectively hamstrings the one All-Star because teams can now strategize for a singular player versus 11 guys.

53 dudes. The better all 53 dudes are is ultimately better than having a singular superstar, especially if that guy isn't a QB.

Look, I understand the importance of having a guy like Houston on the team and it's obvious that his impact was important in the success that the Chiefs had on defense this past season. However, he's coming off his rookie deal and it's going to cost a metric shit ton to have him equal that same level of production that the Chiefs just got on the cheap.

I know people say "Pay the man, he earned it!," but by doing so, you are going to significantly alter the dynamic of the team's salary cap and what they can do in terms of building the team to a playoff/championship level organization.

As well, having one guy that's not the QB get a lion's share of the payroll will create some level of derision on the team.

In addition, they just spent a first round pick on Dee Ford. Rather than pay Houston a king's ransom, I'd sooner like to see them actually use that first round pick and shore up the secondary and inside linebacker positions versus having to continue to shuffle out guys like Mays and Mauga and Owens and the like. I'll take 70% players at all positions versus a 99% player at one and 35%'ers everywhere else.

We're just going to have to disagree.

Answer me this, would the Texans be better off without Watt, could they fill his on-field production and emotional leadership with 2-3 average guys?

If you ran that team, would you have let him go instead of giving him that big contract?

[Easy 6]

Franchises that want to win keep young elite players at key positions who aren't locker room problems, for a number of reasons. Not the least of which being it tells other players - whether they're future draft picks, future free agents or guys currently on the roster - that the franchise values and rewards performance.

The last half of that is an extremely important point that hasnt been mentioned yet.

"If these guys wont even take care of Justin Houston, are they actually going to take care of me?"

[penbrook]

Per Terez Paylor

I’m told the #Chiefs aren’t expected to use the franchise tag on Houston before the meeting with his representative this week.

I’m also told there’s been no decision on whether to sign the franchise tag, if issued. If Houston does, it means a cap hit of $13M or so

[RunKC]

Does Sac realize that he's using the NFL's 2 best secondaries in this argument?

NE-Browner, Revis, McCourty, Chung
SEA-Thomas, Kam, Sherman, Maxwell

These teams have outstanding coverage players on their team. Even at LB guys like Bobby Wagner, KJ Wright and Jamie Collins can cover ground.

We don't have that. This system requires pressure and Houston delivers. Pay the fucking man his money and be done with it.

[penbrook]

Per Terez Paylor

The #Chiefs will indeed meet with Justin Houston’s agent at the combine this week, a league source confirms.

[Hoover]

Sign the man!

[TimBone]

Sure you do, but the problem with giving one guy the lion's share of the money means that a team is most likely going to be suffering in those other aspects because you have to low ball the remaining players in order to keep your team under the cap. It also effectively hamstrings the one All-Star because teams can now strategize for a singular player versus 11 guys.

53 dudes. The better all 53 dudes are is ultimately better than having a singular superstar, especially if that guy isn't a QB.

Look, I understand the importance of having a guy like Houston on the team and it's obvious that his impact was important in the success that the Chiefs had on defense this past season. However, he's coming off his rookie deal and it's going to cost a metric shit ton to have him equal that same level of production that the Chiefs just got on the cheap.

I know people say "Pay the man, he earned it!," but by doing so, you are going to significantly alter the dynamic of the team's salary cap and what they can do in terms of building the team to a playoff/championship level organization.

As well, having one guy that's not the QB get a lion's share of the payroll will create some level of derision on the team.

In addition, they just spent a first round pick on Dee Ford. Rather than pay Houston a king's ransom, I'd sooner like to see them actually use that first round pick and shore up the secondary and inside linebacker positions versus having to continue to shuffle out guys like Mays and Mauga and Owens and the like. I'll take 70% players at all positions versus a 99% player at one and 35%'ers everywhere else.

Well then, let's just let Justin Houston fucking walk away. Gotta spread that money! JFC. What a terrible idea.

[RealSNR]

What Sac is arguing for is balance across all positions on defense, and that includes depth.

Re-signing a stud pass rusher to a large contract doesn't mean you have to sacrifice the pursuit of that balance on the team, nor does it mean a stud pass rusher on a mediocre team means you don't need to keep those stud players on your roster when you draft them.

The Chiefs made the playoffs with Damon Huard playing half of the season and with Herm Edwards as the head coach. They trade away Jared Allen the next year and go 4-12.

I don't believe that's a coincidence. Make no mistake about it-- Justin Houston is a crucial component to this team who deserves to be paid the 2nd or 3rd highest contract for a defensive player in this league.

Because he's worth it.

[TimBone]

What Sac is arguing for is balance across all positions on defense, and that includes depth.

Re-signing a stud pass rusher to a large contract doesn't mean you have to sacrifice the pursuit of that balance on the team, nor does it mean a stud pass rusher on a mediocre team means you don't need to keep those stud players on your roster when you draft them.

The Chiefs made the playoffs with Damon Huard playing half of the season and with Herm Edwards as the head coach. They trade away Jared Allen the next year and go 4-12.

I don't believe that's a coincidence. Make no mistake about it-- Justin Houston is a crucial component to this team who deserves to be paid the 2nd or 3rd highest contract for a defensive player in this league.

Because he's worth it.

I understand he's arguing for balance and depth. I like that. But like you said, a guy like Justin Houston is worth every penny.

To let him go in pursuit of that balance and depth is absurd.

[Chiefnj2]

Does Sac realize that he's using the NFL's 2 best secondaries in this argument?

NE-Browner, Revis, McCourty, Chung
SEA-Thomas, Kam, Sherman, Maxwell

These teams have outstanding coverage players on their team. Even at LB guys like Bobby Wagner, KJ Wright and Jamie Collins can cover ground.

We don't have that. This system requires pressure and Houston delivers. Pay the ****ing man his money and be done with it.

Exactly. You build your team to your own strengths. Trying to copy someone else is dumb, especially when that someone has Tom Brady and Belichick.

[MotherfuckerJones]

Is penbrook chiefsandosfan? Seems like it

[Chief_For_Life58]

Def tag him. See what he does next season then back the brinks up if he's worth it

[RealSNR]

I understand he's arguing for balance and depth. I like that. But like you said, a guy like Justin Houston is worth every penny.

To let him go in pursuit of that balance and depth is absurd.

I don't know what Sac's dollar limit on Houston is, but it's probably much lower than what the Chiefs are willing to pay at this time.

It's the same thing as Alex Smith right now: there are better QBs out there SOMEwhere, but until you find where they are and get them on your roster, you have to keep what you have.

That's a line of logic that Sac advocated for rather cavalierly last offseason when it came to Alex Smith. He was mostly right, too, and I'm shocked that he's not seeing the same thing when it comes to Houston.

[OnTheWarpath15]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...

Being the 10th highest paid QB (when you're about the 20th best QB) is a reasonable hometown contract?

You don't cripple a team by paying guys who produce, you cripple a team by paying a bottom third QB Top 10 money.

[-King-]

Is penbrook chiefsandosfan? Seems like it

ChiefsandO'sfan knew how to embed tweets and post links.

[Saccopoo]

We're just going to have to disagree.

Answer me this, would the Texans be better off without Watt, could they fill his on-field production and emotional leadership with 2-3 average guys?

If you ran that team, would you have let him go instead of giving him that big contract?

Yep.

[milkman]

Yep.

I believe the number of letters in your response here is higher than your football IQ.

[MMXcalibur]

Justin Houston to be the NFL's first billion dollar per year player.

[R8RFAN]

Don't do it Houston.. Test the waters!!!!

[MotherfuckerJones]

Don't do it Houston.. Test the waters!!!!

Ha definitely not happening.

[Chiefnj2]

What's the deal with the tag these days. Is KC 13 mil under the cap right now? Can Houston sign and then does the team have a grace period to clear the money, or do they have to fit him in right away? Are they looking at a bunch of cuts/restructures the next few days?

[RealSNR]

What's the deal with the tag these days. Is KC 13 mil under the cap right now? Can Houston sign and then does the team have a grace period to clear the money, or do they have to fit him in right away? Are they looking at a bunch of cuts/restructures the next few days?
The money doesn't count until Houston signs the contract. They could very well tag him, make free agent decisions, and then have him sign the tag

[BigMeatballDave]

Don't do it Houston.. Test the waters!!!!

Are you trolling, or do you just not know how the Tag works?

[OnTheWarpath15]

What's the deal with the tag these days. Is KC 13 mil under the cap right now? Can Houston sign and then does the team have a grace period to clear the money, or do they have to fit him in right away? Are they looking at a bunch of cuts/restructures the next few days?

According to Over The Cap, we're currently over by $1.5M.

Spotrac says were over by $5.1M

[BossChief]

What's the deal with the tag these days. Is KC 13 mil under the cap right now? Can Houston sign and then does the team have a grace period to clear the money, or do they have to fit him in right away? Are they looking at a bunch of cuts/restructures the next few days?

Teams have to be under the cap by March 3rd iirc.

Tag doesn't count towards the cap till it's signed, though.

[BossChief]

According to Over The Cap, we're currently over by $1.5M.

Spotrac says were over by $5.1M

I didn't think the actual cap limit has been set yet.

[beach tribe]

Adding to what Sac is saying.. In the last five seasons teams that had a top 10 pass rusher in the league went a total of 20-16 in the playoffs in that span. New York and Green Bay account for eight of these wins in the years they won rings.

Half of these 50 guys were on teams that didn't qualify for the postseason.

It's not exhaustive but there seems to be smoke to Sacc's argument that having a sack leader doesn't correlate with playoff success.
No there's not.
Ask yourself how many teams that don't have a legit franchise QB have PO wins without a smothering defense and tenacious leader of it like Houston.

[OnTheWarpath15]

I didn't think the actual cap limit has been set yet.

So teams have to be under this unknown figure in 2 weeks?

[BossChief]

So teams have to be under this unknown figure in 2 weeks?

They are going off league estimates I think.

That's how it was last year before it jumped another 6m...the league wanted to release a conservative estimate to ensure everybody would be in compliance when the final calculations were made.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Well, as of right now - we're over the estimate.

[MotherfuckerJones]

Get this done Dorsey. Pay Houston he deserves it.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...


Shut up fuckface

[BossChief]

Well, as of right now - we're over the estimate.

Lots of dead weight to cut

[MMXcalibur]

How many sacks did the sack leaders for the Patriots and the Seahawks have?

How many playoff wins do Derrick Thomas and Jared Allen have?

If you can bring constant pressure from a myriad of sources, it's irrelevant that you have a "sack master" on your defense. Totally overrated statistic that is the defensive version of total passing yardage by a QB. (Dan Marino or Matt Stafford anyone?)

You don't cripple a team by paying a guy an exorbitant sum of money to make 1.5 tackles for loss a game in his best season.

If Houston doesn't agree to a reasonable hometown contract such as what A. Smith did for his position, I'd be happy to have the 2015 season start with Dee Ford at the position. First round draft pick and all...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/whmb.gif

[Nightfyre]

Wait, wait, wait.... Sac ACTUALLY thinks Alex Smith signed a hometown deal? Are you fucking kidding me right now? Surely, someone has hacked into Sacc's account and has been trolling with it this whole offseason.

[BossChief]

Sac is obviously trolling with every post lately.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Lots of dead weight to cut

Funny, we said that last year - and none of it was cut. (Daniel, Fasano, DeVito, etc.)

[Discuss Thrower]

Watt had more value playing the way he did on a rookie contract in Houston than he does now then he does now for the Texans. Unfortunately for the Texans, the Kubiak regime's collapse didn't happen "soon" enough and there's no way McClain couldn't justify shopping their biggest star for draft picks.

Now you look at the present and the Texans are a middling team that just parked a Brinks' truck in JJ Watt's driveway. Great player, but -as I've pointed out- that just because you've got a guy who's capable of leading the league in sacks year after year it doesn't mean you'll win when it matters in January. His contract is a big portion of their cap when the team is deficient at the position that matters the most: quarterback.

Houston went 9-7 last season and was in technically in contention for a playoff spot -albeit they'd need help- and they improved in almost every facet from their 2-14 finish the season prior.

However, those nine wins came against Washington, Oakland, Buffalo, Tennessee, Cleveland, Tennessee again, Jacksonville, Baltimore and then Jacksonville. JJ Watt and the defense beat RG3, David Carr, EJ Manuel, Zach Mettenberger, Brian Hoyer, Mettenberger, Blake Bortles, Flacco and Bortles again.

Their defense couldn't beat the teams quarterbacked by Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Andrew Luck (twice), Ben Roethlisberger, Mark Sanchez and Andy Dalton.

Five wins against rookie quarterbacks... And they couldn't beat high-level quarterbacks and lost to CP whipping boys Andy Dalton and Mark Sanchez. And this was with their franchise player JJ Watt playing an MVP caliber season.

[R8RFAN]

Are you trolling, or do you just not know how the Tag works? Yes

[mcaj22]

Funny, we said that last year - and none of it was cut. (Daniel, Fasano, DeVito, etc.)

just added more on top of that shit sandwich in Mays and Walker

[Discuss Thrower]

Does anyone expect to see the Texans playing in the AFC Championship game in the next two seasons?

[MotherfuckerJones]

Hey sac, how many sacks did the Giants get when they won? They won 2 Super Bowls with a great pass rush

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c2JUD9Vj7u4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

???

[RealSNR]

Watt had more value playing the way he did on a rookie contract in Houston than he does now then he does now for the Texans. Unfortunately for the Texans, the Kubiak regime's collapse didn't happen "soon" enough and there's no way McClain couldn't justify shopping their biggest star for draft picks.

Now you look at the present and the Texans are a middling team that just parked a Brinks' truck in JJ Watt's driveway. Great player, but -as I've pointed out- that just because you've got a guy who's capable of leading the league in sacks year after year it doesn't mean you'll win when it matters in January. His contract is a big portion of their cap when the team is deficient at the position that matters the most: quarterback.

Houston went 9-7 last season and was in technically in contention for a playoff spot -albeit they'd need help- and they improved in almost every facet from their 2-14 finish the season prior.

However, those nine wins came against Washington, Oakland, Buffalo, Tennessee, Cleveland, Tennessee again, Jacksonville, Baltimore and then Jacksonville. JJ Watt and the defense beat RG3, David Carr, EJ Manuel, Zach Mettenberger, Brian Hoyer, Mettenberger, Blake Bortles, Flacco and Bortles again.

Their defense couldn't beat the teams quarterbacked by Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Andrew Luck (twice), Ben Roethlisberger, Mark Sanchez and Andy Dalton.

Five wins against rookie quarterbacks... And they couldn't beat high-level quarterbacks and lost to CP whipping boys Andy Dalton and Mark Sanchez. And this was with their franchise player JJ Watt playing an MVP caliber season.
The salary cap isn't the reason why Houston can't find a QB :spock:

[Brock]

Does anyone expect to see the Texans playing in the AFC Championship game in the next two seasons?

Depends on if they find a qb or not.

[Dante84]

OP Updated

[Discuss Thrower]

The salary cap isn't the reason why Houston can't find a QB :spock:
No, but it will hamper their ability to put guys around a Ryan Mallett or Savage to make them look like top 10 QBs.