Chiefs onto something in drafting undersized ILBs?

[chiefzilla1501]

I thought it was curious that Dorsey would draft 2 undersized LBs. If there's anything we've learned about Dorsey, it's that he's always trying to exploit new tendencies in the NFL. He doesn't always pick the right guy to exploit the tendency, but it's interesting to hear his thought process. He might be modeling off of Chip Kelly, who knows a thing or 2 about spread offenses.

A few examples:

Dee Ford was drafted because Dorsey believes in the new NFL, QBs get rid of the ball so quick that you need to get to the QB faster. Dee Ford has the first step to do that
Fisher was drafted because Dorsey believed you need Tackles with arm length to more quickly bump off first step pass rushers
Vance Walker was signed and Tyson Jackson was cut because Sutton evolved his thinking... the Ryan defense usually relies on a lot of 2-gap, but Dorsey began to realize it should start evolving into having 1-gappers at DE


So out of curiosity, I started looking into why a team might draft more undersized ILBs. Came across a really interesting article:
http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2015/4/3/8339465/inside-linebacker-new-home-of-the-elite-athlete-Jaylong-Smith-CJ-Mosley-Dylan-Moses-spread-offense
Talks about how Chip Kelly is countering the spread. Basically, your typical thumpers might be liabilities against the spread. So now teams are looking for fast, rangy ILBs and to do that, they're looking for speed over size. An interesting observation that as RBs become more and more devalued, many of them are being converted to LBs to help counter the spread. Ryan Shazier is a terrific example. Let's think about Dorsey's reaction to this offseason:

Cut Joe Mays, a thumper
When scouts were asked to compare Nico Johnson to Ramik Wilson, the comment was that Johnson was too much of a thumper while Wilson is not

I would bet Dorsey hit the tendency on the mark. But historically, he hasn't always gotten the right player the first time, so these guys could still end up busting. What do people think?

[KurtCobain]

Saying these guys will bust is having too much of an expectation for late rounders in the first place.

[BigChiefFan]

We should have just traded up for Kendrick's in the 2nd round and been done with it.

[O.city]

He's onto aomething, the same thing the rest of the nfl has been onto for about 5 years

[Dante84]

Very interesting. We've certainly seen an emphasis placed on speed, so this seems plausible.

[notorious]

Smaller=Faster=Better at covering the pass.

[DaneMcCloud]

Seattle

[Iconic]

If that's the case Ramik Wilson definitely wasn't the way to go. He's neither abnormaly fast nor great in coverage. Just a big bundle of meh.

[chiefzilla1501]

Smaller=Faster=Better at covering the pass.

Yes, but different from what we usually think. It's not just covering TEs and occasionally WRs, as it was in the past. Plenty of 245+ LB ILBs can do that if they have fluid hips. This seems to be more about playing in space and exploding to anywhere sideline to sideline.

[GloucesterChief]

Speed kills. To combat the spread/WCO you need to minimize YAC.

[DaneMcCloud]

Yes, but different from what we usually think. It's not just covering TEs and occasionally WRs, as it was in the past. Plenty of 245+ LB ILBs can do that if they have fluid hips. This seems to be more about playing in space and exploding to anywhere sideline to sideline.

Again, Seattle

[Dante84]

Yes, but different from what we usually think. It's not just covering TEs and occasionally WRs, as it was in the past. Plenty of 245+ LB ILBs can do that if they have fluid hips. This seems to be more about playing in space and exploding to anywhere sideline to sideline.

Almost like having multiple safeties on the field, specifically on passing downs.

I assume we'll play a lot of heavy nickel as well this year, with Branch on the field at the same time as Abdullah and Parker.

[RunKC]

Seattle

Pretty much. We are built the exact same way.

[milkman]

Again, Seattle

Bobby Wagner is the prototype MLB/ILB for today's NFL.

[chiefzilla1501]

Again, Seattle

Don't know much about Seattle. I'm guessing you're right. It seems pretty new to Kansas City, though. Akeem Jordan, Joe Mays, Nico Johnson, even Josh Mauga fit more of the traditional bigger, slower ILB mold. This seems like new territory for the Chiefs. I don't think everyone has necessarily caught up to it. You still hear plenty of people criticize a player for being undersized and not having the size to play 3 downs.

[GloucesterChief]

Perhaps that is why 2 RBs were chosen in the first round. Seattle had trouble with teams that went run heavy.

[chiefzilla1501]

If that's the case Ramik Wilson definitely wasn't the way to go. He's neither abnormaly fast nor great in coverage. Just a big bundle of meh.

Like I said, Dorsey seems to be excellent at spotting the trend. He doesn't always bring in the best players to exploit that trend. Hope he's right about these guys, even if I'm not terribly excited about either of them.

[planetdoc]

nfl is all about speed vs size.

its not suprising that the dbs and linebackers they acquired are also good tacklers. That is all the more important for the "smaller" guys.

[DaneMcCloud]

Bobby Wagner is the prototype MLB/ILB for today's NFL.

Absolutely

[xztop123]

Good thread I like

[xztop123]

I attributed our major improvement in pass defense this year (compared to last) largely as a result of the shorter stature of the linebackers.

DJ is an upright LB and Akeem Jordan was terrible upright.

Mauga and JMJ are good cover guys. It helped us beat a team like San Diego but cost us vs a team like Oakland.

[Rausch]

I thought it was curious that Dorsey would draft 2 undersized LBs. If there's anything we've learned about Dorsey, it's that he's always trying to exploit new tendencies in the NFL. He doesn't always pick the right guy to exploit the tendency, but it's interesting to hear his thought process. He might be modeling off of Chip Kelly, who knows a thing or 2 about spread offenses.

A few examples:
[LIST]
Dee Ford was drafted because Dorsey believes in the new NFL, QBs get rid of the ball so quick that you need to get to the QB faster. Dee Ford has the first step to do that
Fisher was drafted because Dorsey believed you need Tackles with arm length to more quickly bump off first step pass rushers

I see your point and honestly, seems to make sense.

That said you shouldn't lead off your argument with two failures in drafting.

I think Ford might continue to grow and end up a decent rusher. Possibly.

Fisher is $#it and the sooner we can dump him and his #1 contract the better...

[chiefzilla1501]

I see your point and honestly, seems to make sense.

That said you shouldn't lead off your argument with two failures in drafting.

I think Ford might continue to grow and end up a decent rusher. Possibly.

Fisher is $#it and the sooner we can dump him and his #1 contract the better...

I was pretty point blank that while Dorsey's thought process was interesting, he hasn't always picked up the right player to fill that role. I'm not overly impressed with Wilson or Alexander, so that might be the case here too.

[Chiefshrink]

Smaller=Faster=Better at covering the pass.

BINGO !!!

[staylor26]

I see your point and honestly, seems to make sense.

That said you shouldn't lead off your argument with two failures in drafting.

I think Ford might continue to grow and end up a decent rusher. Possibly.

Fisher is $#it and the sooner we can dump him and his #1 contract the better...

Dee Ford is a failure? :spock:

[chiefzilla1501]

Dee Ford is a failure? :spock:

Where did he say that? He's saying dee Ford has proven nothing to say he was a successful pick, but also was fair in saying he has plenty of time to prove Dorsey right.

[BossChief]

I bet we would have taken Ryan Shazier if he was available instead of Dee Ford.

That kid is gonna be special.

[staylor26]

Where did he say that? He's saying dee Ford has proven nothing to say he was a successful pick, but also was fair in saying he has plenty of time to prove Dorsey right.

He said he shouldn't have started off with 2 failures in drafting (Fisher and Ford). WTF else dos that mean? All he said was Ford could end up being a decent pass rusher which is horseshit. Ford has great upside and flashed when he got opportunities to pin his ears back last year.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

If it means never hearing someone pine for a "thumper" or "bruiser", I am cool with it.

[Garcia Bronco]

Get too small and there is no reason to throw on you....so like anything you need balance. The ILB in a 3-4 has to slam into the guard about 20 to 25 times a game...smaller guys aren't going to be able to do that for a whole game over an entire season.

[nychief]

Bubble screen league... Gotta have wheels to defend it.

[Rausch]

Dee Ford is a failure? :spock:

The use of that draft pick was a failure. The timing of it was a failure.

We might pick a HOF kicker, and that's great, but doing it in the first round when we already have a pro bowl kicker is stupid...

[Faddy Yomama]

Maybe we can convert them to WRs down the line.

[staylor26]

The use of that draft pick was a failure. The timing of it was a failure.

We might pick a HOF kicker, and that's great, but doing it in the first round when we already have a pro bowl kicker is stupid...

Yea drafting pass rushers when they already had two was very stupid of the Seahawks and Giants also!

ROFL @ comparing drafting for depth at K to OLB. Just stop man.

[Rausch]

Yea drafting pass rushers when they already had two was very stupid of the Seahawks and Giants also!

ROFL @ comparing drafting for depth at K to OLB. Just stop man.

I'm not comparing the two positions you tool, I'm comparing the use of draft picks.

I can't help that you're too dense to understand the difference between how draft picks are used, on draft day, and how good a player ends up being.

Drafting a 4th round value in the 1st, even if that becomes a HOF player, is still a mistake.

It's not a mistake because the guy didn't work out - it's a mistake because you could have had a guy with 1st round talent AND your HOF player later.

And it's also what you get for your pick/money. We're paying Ford to be a b/u that rarely see's the field for two years 1st round money. That's a waste of money and a pick because you get almost nothing out of it.

When you look at the Peters pick that's a guy with value ABOVE where we drafted him, he can come and compete for a starting job day one, and can influence the course of a game his first year.

People on here act like you can only draft for need OR BPA. That's not the case. The whole point is to do both.

This draft had less talent and depth than last year did and we did a much better job this year of doing both...

[Brock]

The use of that draft pick was a failure. The timing of it was a failure.

We might pick a HOF kicker, and that's great, but doing it in the first round when we already have a pro bowl kicker is stupid...

The use of the pick was fine. The use of the player is what sucked.

[Rausch]

The use of the pick was fine. The use of the player is what sucked.

Considering Hali's age and the fact he's likely gone after this year I'd like to see Ford get as much as 25% of the snaps.

Keep hali fresh during the game and hopefully for the post-season...

[staylor26]

I'm not comparing the two positions you tool, I'm comparing the use of draft picks.

I can't help that you're too dense to understand the difference between how draft picks are used, on draft day, and how good a player ends up being.

Drafting a 4th round value in the 1st, even if that becomes a HOF player, is still a mistake.

It's not a mistake because the guy didn't work out - it's a mistake because you could have had a guy with 1st round talent AND your HOF player later.

And it's also what you get for your pick/money. We're paying Ford to be a b/u that rarely see's the field for two years 1st round money. That's a waste of money and a pick because you get almost nothing out of it.

When you look at the Peters pick that's a guy with value ABOVE where we drafted him, he can come and compete for a starting job day one, and can influence the course of a game his first year.

People on here act like you can only draft for need OR BPA. That's not the case. The whole point is to do both.

This draft had less talent and depth than last year did and we did a much better job this year of doing both...

I think its you that's missing the point. Funny how you ignored the part about the Seahawks/Giants doing the same exact thing. Drafting for depth at edge rusher in the first has been proven to be very effective not to mention it came after a season where we lost both Hali and Houston and it cost us. If it weren't for Hali being a team first guy he'd be gone and Ford would be starting this year. So basically you're complaining bc we didn't get much use in year 1. You don't ****ing draft for year 1 sorry man. It's a great "problem" to have this year, but you're somehow making it sound like drafting Ford was a waste. You are a moron plain and simple.

[rtmike]

Your a moron plain and simple.


FYP

[Rausch]

I think its you that's missing the point. Funny how you ignored the part about the Seahawks/Giants doing the same exact thing. Drafting for depth at edge rusher in the first has been proven to be very effective not to mention it came after a season where we lost both Hali and Houston and it cost us. If it weren't for Hali being a team first guy he'd be gone and Ford would be starting this year. So basically you're complaining bc we didn't get much use in year 1. You don't ****ing draft for year 1 sorry man. It's a great "problem" to have this year, but you're somehow making it sound like drafting Ford was a waste. You are a moron plain and simple.

The teams you mentioned ROTATE THEIR PASS RUSHERS.

We don't like they do. We knew when we drafted him he was only going to have any real time if someone got injured.

I'm not arguing against depth. I'm arguing against drafting a guy you know won't contribute at all his first year and ignoring huge, glaring weaknesses that cost our team.

We could have helped the team and added depth at other positions. AND won games.

Look at it this way: what if we had drafted Conley in the first instead of the 3rd?

Conley still would likely end up being a solid player but it means we missed out on a talent like Peters. The way it worked out we got both.

And this draft these guys are talented and will be able to contribute immediately. That's the goal: draft good players that can come in and make a contribution.

Stacking depth in one area and ignoring the huge weaknesses of others is why our offense sucked in the 90's and our defense sucked under DV.

This draft Dorsey seems to have changed his approach a bit. We got good value, good talent, and we could have 3 or even 4 of our top 5 picks starting THIS YEAR...

[chiefzilla1501]

The teams you mentioned ROTATE THEIR PASS RUSHERS.

We don't like they do. We knew when we drafted him he was only going to have any real time if someone got injured.

I'm not arguing against depth. I'm arguing against drafting a guy you know won't contribute at all his first year and ignoring huge, glaring weaknesses that cost our team.

We could have helped the team and added depth at other positions. AND won games.

Look at it this way: what if we had drafted Conley in the first instead of the 3rd?

Conley still would likely end up being a solid player but it means we missed out on a talent like Peters. The way it worked out we got both.

And this draft these guys are talented and will be able to contribute immediately. That's the goal: draft good players that can come in and make a contribution.

Stacking depth in one area and ignoring the huge weaknesses of others is why our offense sucked in the 90's and our defense sucked under DV.

This draft Dorsey seems to have changed his approach a bit. We got good value, good talent, and we could have 3 or even 4 of our top 5 picks starting THIS YEAR...


I actually disagree with you there. But then, I'm huge on BPA based on positional value over drafting for need. If Ford becomes an impact pass rusher then it's a great pick. I don't care if he starts or even if it takes him 2 or 3 years to get there. When you draft high positional value players, you have to be patient with the learning curve.

I'm with you though that we've seen flashes of what he can do, but we need to see a hell of a lot more to justify the pick. For now, more than fair to question the pick until he proves it on the field.