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ReynardMuldrake
06-16-2015, 09:19 AM
WASHINGTON — The F.B.I. and Justice Department prosecutors are investigating front-office officials for the St. Louis Cardinals, one of the most successful teams in baseball over the past two decades, for hacking into the internal networks of a rival team to steal closely guarded information about player personnel.

Investigators have uncovered evidence that Cardinals officials broke into a network of the Houston Astros that housed special databases the team had built, according to law enforcement officials. Internal discussions about trades, proprietary statistics and scouting reports were compromised, the officials said.

The officials did not say which employees were the focus of the investigation or whether the team’s highest-ranking officials were aware of the hacking or authorized it. The investigation is being led by the F.B.I.’s Houston field office and has progressed to the point that subpoenas have been served on the Cardinals and Major League Baseball for electronic correspondence.

The Houston Astros hired Luhnow as general manager in December 2011. Before then he had been a successful and polarizing executive with the Cardinals. Credit David J. Phillip/Associated Press
The attack represents the first known case of corporate espionage in which a professional sports team has hacked the network of another team. Illegal intrusions into companies’ networks have become commonplace, but it is generally conducted by hackers operating in foreign countries, like Russia and China, who steal large tranches of data or trade secrets for military equipment and electronics.

Major League Baseball “has been aware of and has fully cooperated with the federal investigation into the illegal breach of the Astros’ baseball operations database,” a spokesman for baseball’s commissioner, Rob Manfred, said in a written statement.

The Cardinals officials under investigation have not been put on leave, suspended or fired. The commissioner’s office is likely to wait until the conclusion of the government’s investigation to determine whether to take disciplinary action against the officials or the team.

The case is a rare mark of ignominy for the Cardinals, one of the sport’s most revered and popular organizations. The team has the best record in baseball this season (42-21), regularly commands outsize television ratings and has reached the National League Championship Series nine times since 2000. The Cardinals, who last won the World Series in 2011, have 11 titles over all, second only to the Yankees.

Their owner, Bill DeWitt, is a highly regarded executive who last year was in charge of the search committee for a new commissioner to replace the retiring Bud Selig.

Law enforcement officials believe the hacking was executed by vengeful front-office employees for the Cardinals hoping to wreak havoc on the work of Jeff Luhnow, the Astros’ general manager who had been a successful and polarizing executive with the Cardinals until 2011.

From 1994 to 2012, the Astros and the Cardinals were division rivals, in the National League. For a part of that time, Mr. Luhnow was a Cardinals executive, primarily handling scouting and player development. One of many innovative thinkers drawn to the sport by the “Moneyball” phenomenon, he was credited with building baseball’s best minor league system, as well as drafting several players who would become linchpins of the Cardinals’ 2011 World Series-winning team.

The Astros hired Mr. Luhnow as general manager in December 2011, and he quickly began applying his unconventional approach to running a baseball team. In an exploration of the team’s radical transformation, Bloomberg Business called it “a project unlike anything baseball has seen before.”

Under Mr. Luhnow, the Astros have accomplished a striking turnaround; they are in first place in the American League West division. But in 2013, before their revival at the major league level, their internal deliberations about statistics and players were compromised, law enforcement officials said.

The intrusion did not appear to be sophisticated, the law enforcement officials said. When Mr. Luhnow was with the Cardinals, the organization built a computer network, called Redbird, to house all of their baseball operations information — including scouting reports and player personnel information. After leaving to join the Astros, and bringing some front-office personnel with him from the Cardinals, Houston created a similar program known as Ground Control.

Ground Control contained the Astros’ “collective baseball knowledge,” according to a Bloomberg Business article published last year. The program took a series of variables and “weights them according to the values determined by the team’s statisticians, physicist, doctors, scouts and coaches,” the article said.

Investigators believe Cardinals officials, concerned that Mr. Luhnow had taken their idea and proprietary baseball information to the Astros, examined a master list of passwords used by Mr. Luhnow and the other officials who had joined the Astros when they worked for the Cardinals. The Cardinals officials are believed to have used those passwords to gain access to the Astros’ network, law enforcement officials said.

Last year, some of the information was posted anonymously online, according to an article on Deadspin. Among the details that were exposed were trade discussions that the Astros had with other teams. Mr. Luhnow was asked at the time whether the breach would affect how he dealt with other teams. “Today I used a pencil and paper in all my conversations,” he said.

Believing that the Astros’ network had been compromised by a rogue hacker, Major League Baseball notified the F.B.I., and the authorities in Houston opened an investigation. Agents soon found that the Astros’ network had been entered from a computer at a home that some Cardinals officials had lived in. The agents then turned their attention to the team’s front office.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/sports/baseball/st-louis-cardinals-hack-astros-fbi.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0

alpha_omega
06-16-2015, 09:24 AM
Ha...since the ***official Cardinals thread*** is not appropriate for Cardinal bashing, i am thankful for this thread.

Fuck the Cardinals!

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
06-16-2015, 09:28 AM
Hahahahahaha

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 09:29 AM
New England Patriots East

KC native
06-16-2015, 09:30 AM
New England Patriots East

Don't you mean West?

Reaper16
06-16-2015, 09:30 AM
It's OK. God gave His Team dominion over internet communications.

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 09:30 AM
New England Patriots East


Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 09:31 AM
Don't you mean West?

Errr yeah. Whatever.

Reaper16
06-16-2015, 09:31 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

The geographically limited bastard was prooooooobably referencing SpyGate, not DeflateGate.

wazu
06-16-2015, 09:31 AM
Wow! Hate to see this. Ugh.

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 09:31 AM
best fans in blackballed baseball.

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 09:33 AM
The geographically limited bastard was prooooooobably referencing SpyGate, not DeflateGate.

I have trouble with left or right too. Missed those days in the 3rd grade.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
06-16-2015, 09:33 AM
Give us Alex Reyes and we'll forget the whole thing.

wazu
06-16-2015, 09:34 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

It probably is from a results perspective, but since it involves a criminal act I will concede its on a slightly different level overall.

Pablo
06-16-2015, 09:34 AM
Cocksuckers. Just like their fan base. Color me surprised.

Mr. Laz
06-16-2015, 09:42 AM
lol

cheatbirds

L.A. Chieffan
06-16-2015, 09:43 AM
It's the cardinal way, they train their computer people to hack the right way in the minors

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-16-2015, 09:43 AM
That's an absolute disgrace if true. Whoever is involved or authorized this should lose their jobs and be blacklisted from baseball. Also, total dick move by Luhnow if he actually did take proprietary information from the team when he went to Houston.

petegz28
06-16-2015, 09:45 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

How about filming opposing teams' practices???

ChiefsCountry
06-16-2015, 09:47 AM
Might have to listen to Kevin Slaten this afternoon.

Old Dog
06-16-2015, 09:47 AM
New England Patriots East

Don't you mean West?

If he went east long enough he would get there (though it would certainly be a shorter trip heading in the direction you suggest).

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 09:48 AM
{facepalm}

Goddammit.

Mozeliak was Jocketty's chief lieutenant; came over with him from Colorado. Jocketty and Luhnow hated each other and while Mozeliak was hired largely because the front office believed he would work well with Luhnow, there's no doubt in my mind that Mozeliak's guys were also guys that were loyal to Jocketty before him; they were all part of the same tree.

So when Luhnow leaves, some idiot thinks they'll get back at the snot-nosed numbers guy and sets out to embarrass him. They didn't even get a competitive advantage from it (hell, if that's your plan, you don't ever reveal that you've made it into their system; you just continue mining it for information) - they just did it to make Luhnow look bad.

10 years after the organization fractured between Jocketty and Luhnow and we're still dealing with blowback from it. Unbelievable. Stupid, petty bullshit by some underling with an axe to grind. Fuck; this is gonna suck ass.

mac459
06-16-2015, 09:48 AM
http://i1.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/TheperfectintersectionoftoomuchbeerandtoomanyhotdogsStayclassyKansasCityfans-3780.gif?w=900

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 09:49 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

You should be happy that another team is in play for cheaters of the year.

ChiTown
06-16-2015, 09:51 AM
http://i1.wp.com/memecollection.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/TheperfectintersectionoftoomuchbeerandtoomanyhotdogsStayclassyKansasCityfans-3780.gif?w=900

LMAO

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 09:51 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Reaper16
06-16-2015, 09:52 AM
This is one of the worst cheating scandals in modern sports history.

But also Luhnow is a total dummy for not changing his passwords. C'mon dude.

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 09:52 AM
How about filming opposing teams' practices???


Never alleged except by a reporter who withdrew it swiftly after realizing he had screwed up, and no evidence of it at all.

Oh, and by yahoos on the Internet. They allege it frequently.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
06-16-2015, 09:53 AM
This is one of the worst cheating scandals in modern sports history.

But also Luhnow is a total dummy for not changing his passwords. C'mon dude.

Could have been someone other than Luhnow

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 09:56 AM
It probably is from a results perspective, but since it involves a criminal act I will concede its on a slightly different level overall.

It's Silicon Valley.

Anyone catch this season? When Gilfoyle 'hacks' End Frame by taking the post-it note with the password off his desk.

Whoever did this just went down a list of old passwords until one of them stuck. On one hand, it's funny as hell. On the other hand...mother. fucker. It's just such a stupid, petty maneuver. These are two teams in different leagues who utilize largely the exact same player evaluation tools/metrics because goddamn Luhnow built them for STL. The Cards already have what he uses, or at least a very close approximation.

There was no competitive advantage to be gained here and the idiots knew it, that's why they leaked it rather than sit on the knowledge and pump the Astros for information for years.

It's just so goddamn dumb and it's obviously a terrible look for the organization.

SPchief
06-16-2015, 09:56 AM
Reminder, if you're not already following
@BestFansStLouis on twitter. It's highly recommended.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 09:56 AM
Never alleged except by a reporter who withdrew it swiftly after realizing he had screwed up, and no evidence of it at all.

Oh, and by yahoos on the Internet. They allege it frequently.

maybe they just hacked the Astros ever so slightly ... that's my guess. If so, if they just cheated a little ... no big deal, right?

petegz28
06-16-2015, 09:57 AM
Never alleged except by a reporter who withdrew it swiftly after realizing he had screwed up, and no evidence of it at all.

Oh, and by yahoos on the Internet. They allege it frequently.

What about the NFL?? Are you saying the NFL punished your precious Pats for nothing?

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 09:58 AM
If he went east long enough he would get there (though it would certainly be a shorter trip heading in the direction you suggest).

Good point. Thanks!

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 09:59 AM
New England Patriots Far East

FMP

ptlyon
06-16-2015, 10:00 AM
maybe they just hacked the Astros ever so slightly ... that's my guess. If so, if they just cheated a little ... no big deal, right?

Well, it is the Astros...

O.city
06-16-2015, 10:01 AM
Not a good look for the franchise. At all.

Everyone involved needs to burn

wazu
06-16-2015, 10:01 AM
Reminder, if you're not already following
@BestFansStLouis on twitter. It's highly recommended.

I'm not a hater, but this is pure gold.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 10:02 AM
Well, it is the Astros...

oh I don't care, I was just laughing at Amnorix's 'ever so slightly' comment

kcfanXIII
06-16-2015, 10:02 AM
This is one of the worst cheating scandals in modern sports history.

But also Luhnow is a total dummy for not changing his passwords. C'mon dude.

This all day. Just by the information in this article you can tell the "hackers" are not skilled. They gained access by using a list of old passwords, and they were able to trace the breech to their actual home... The biggest thing about this is it is highly illegal, and with the recent wave of breeches being traced to the far east, (or west of the US for those that are concerned about flight times) the FBI cyber crimes division finally has someone to go after. I expect the punishment to be severe.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 10:02 AM
This is one of the worst cheating scandals in modern sports history.

But also Luhnow is a total dummy for not changing his passwords. C'mon dude.

It could have been, but because of the parties to this one in particular, it probably isn't.

Again, Luhnow's stuff is the same stuff the Cards have. And Luhnow never knew anyone was in his system until it was leaked. If the Cards were actually getting good intel, they'd have never leaked the information.

I mean I guess we'll find out; shit's gonna hit the fan here and we'll see what happens when it all settles. Maybe the Cards front office guy(s) were sitting on key data and grabbed Wacha a bit early in the 2012 draft knowing that the Astros might take him in the 2nd. Maybe they leaked the negotiations/information regarding Aiken/Nix and the Casey Close mess last year. But with the sordid history between Luhnow and the remnants of the Jocketty camp, the most likely scenario is that some jackass stumbled into the password and wanted Luhnow to look like a dick.

Nobody that had given this a moment of thought would have ever thought that the Astros/Luhnow would just let that go. If it had really been a source of steady data mining, the Cards front office would have never leaked that information because it was obviously going to get back on them at some point.

siberian khatru
06-16-2015, 10:04 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">of course <a href="http://t.co/CvlayMn076">pic.twitter.com/CvlayMn076</a></p>&mdash; america (@greghoward88) <a href="https://twitter.com/greghoward88/status/610838021714395136">June 16, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 10:05 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">of course <a href="http://t.co/CvlayMn076">pic.twitter.com/CvlayMn076</a></p>&mdash; america (@greghoward88) <a href="https://twitter.com/greghoward88/status/610838021714395136">June 16, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


:LOL:

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 10:07 AM
What about the NFL?? Are you saying the NFL punished your precious Pats for nothing?


Christ. Spygate was NOT ABOUT TAPING PRACTICES. Not even a tiny, little bit.

It was about taping signals in games. A practice that was common and widespread until the NFL sent a memo about it in 2006 prohibiting it.

BWillie
06-16-2015, 10:07 AM
So, how big of an advantage would this give you? I would think it would really only help in player acquisition with that team to figure out how much they value a given player. I dont see why the Cardinals would even bother based on risk reward. So stupid of them

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 10:08 AM
It could have been, but because of the parties to this one in particular, it probably isn't.

Again, Luhnow's stuff is the same stuff the Cards have. And Luhnow never knew anyone was in his system until it was leaked. If the Cards were actually getting good intel, they'd have never leaked the information.

I mean I guess we'll find out; shit's gonna hit the fan here and we'll see what happens when it all settles. Maybe the Cards front office guy(s) were sitting on key data and grabbed Wacha a bit early in the 2012 draft knowing that the Astros might take him in the 2nd. Maybe they leaked the negotiations/information regarding Aiken/Nix and the Casey Close mess last year. But with the sordid history between Luhnow and the remnants of the Jocketty camp, the most likely scenario is that some jackass stumbled into the password and wanted Luhnow to look like a dick.

Nobody that had given this a moment of thought would have ever thought that the Astros/Luhnow would just let that go. If it had really been a source of steady data mining, the Cards front office would have never leaked that information because it was obviously going to get back on them at some point.

It also was incredibly stupid for whoever did it to leak this info. Because the Astros then knew they had a leak, and that led to them turning it over to the FBI.

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 10:10 AM
So, how big of an advantage would this give you? I would think it would really only help in player acquisition with that team to figure out how much they value a given player. I dont see why the Cardinals would even bother based on risk reward. So stupid of them

I think you're underestimating how much the Mo people hate the Luhnow people.

I once had a Cards scout refuse to talk to me because I mentioned something SABRE-ish. Was told "You want to talk about made-up bullshit like that, you go talk to one of Luhnow's nerds."

kcpasco
06-16-2015, 10:10 AM
ROFL so going down a list of old passwords is hacking?

Mr. Laz
06-16-2015, 10:11 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHogrMhUEAAB9mq.jpg

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 10:12 AM
So, how big of an advantage would this give you? I would think it would really only help in player acquisition with that team to figure out how much they value a given player. I dont see why the Cardinals would even bother based on risk reward. So stupid of them

Theoretically it could give you a pretty big advantage depending on what you found.

If you're the Cardinals and you hack the Cubs, for instance. You'll get to look into Epstein's brain and see what player development/analysis tools he has. You also get an edge on a division rival that you'll likely be competing with for players. You'll know exactly what they'd be willing to pay so you can price enforce in FA negotiations or not overbid if it's someone you want.

The benefits could be enormous if they yield a new set of eyes/minds and/or provide a way to undermine your direct competition.

In this particular instance, however, they got to Luhnow's system - a system he developed over his 8 years in STL. There was no new information there. Moreover, there's very little benefit to price enforcing as they're in separate leagues. It could be helpful when pursuing players but near as I can remember, the Cards/Astros have not been in on the same guys since Luhnow went out there because they've been in different places on the competitive cycle.

In the end, it almost certainly yielded next to no competitive advantage for STL, which is supported by the fact that they leaked the intel and thus cooked that golden goose.

I mean shit, if you're going to make the organization look TERRIBLE, at least do it in pursuit of actually benefiting your squad instead of just trying to make a former co-worker look like a tool.

RollChiefsRoll
06-16-2015, 10:12 AM
St. Louis is a festering shithole. Baseball is all they have. Cut me some slack, FBI, dang.

seclark
06-16-2015, 10:12 AM
ROFL so going down a list of old passwords is hacking?

using them is.
bad deal.
sec

SPchief
06-16-2015, 10:14 AM
List of key words being looked for.

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 10:17 AM
This is one of the worst cheating scandals in modern sports history.

But also Luhnow is a total dummy for not changing his passwords. C'mon dude.

unless it was a honeypot trap. If so, Luhnow is an even greater genius knowing the acrimony between some of the front office on the way out might result in former coworkers might attempt to see him flame out.

Do I think that's what happend? No.
I do expect the Cards to find a patsy to fall on their sword in an attempt to do damage control. I hope they show them no quarter.

Mr. Laz
06-16-2015, 10:18 AM
ROFL so going down a list of old passwords is hacking?
actually yes

It's basically a form of brute force hacking.


There are hacking programs that use "dictionaries" of sorts and a automated log-in app to try every password possible.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 10:19 AM
It also was incredibly stupid for whoever did it to leak this info. Because the Astros then knew they had a leak, and that led to them turning it over to the FBI.

Exactly - that's why I don't think this was a known organizational thing.

One or two jackasses thinking like frat boys would leak the information because they thought it was funny. But at the upper levels, someone's going to realize 'holy shit folks, Luhnow's gonna come hard for whoever did this...how 'bout we not EVER let it be known that we have it....'

Like I said, we'll find out. The FBI's not gonna just hang out there. There are gonna be high level Cardinal officials in courtrooms for a very long time answering some pretty nasty questions under oath. But with some background on the parties involved and with at least some knowledge as to how that information was eventually used/leaked, a face level reading suggests something very stupid and not ultimately very beneficial.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
06-16-2015, 10:21 AM
TEX needs to get in here.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 10:22 AM
I think you're underestimating how much the Mo people hate the Luhnow people.

I once had a Cards scout refuse to talk to me because I mentioned something SABRE-ish. Was told "You want to talk about made-up bullshit like that, you go talk to one of Luhnow's nerds."

HA!

Damn, you have a fair amount of nice information. I knew you worked in sports, but how closely/long did you work with folks within the Cards organization?

Yeah, it's incredibly important to know the parties involved here. Walt Jocketty got fired a mere 10 months after winning a World Series, culminating a 3 year stretch where they won 2 pennants and had 2 100 win seasons. He was fired for a mediocre, but not awful, 78 win season where the whole team broke down.

The problem was that the organization had become so friggen toxic that guys in the front office simply weren't speaking to each other for months at a time.

Everything about this goes back to the absolute hatred between the Luhnow and Jocketty people and the fact that Jocketty still has loyal lieutenants in that front office via John Mozeliak.

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 10:24 AM
Exactly - that's why I don't think this was a known organizational thing.

One or two jackasses thinking like frat boys would leak the information because they thought it was funny. But at the upper levels, someone's going to realize 'holy shit folks, Luhnow's gonna come hard for whoever did this...how 'bout we not EVER let it be known that we have it....'

Like I said, we'll find out. The FBI's not gonna just hang out there. There are gonna be high level Cardinal officials in courtrooms for a very long time answering some pretty nasty questions under oath. But with some background on the parties involved and with at least some knowledge as to how that information was eventually used/leaked, a face level reading suggests something very stupid and not ultimately very beneficial.

Better just hope the Cardinals didn't nab a guy the Astros were extremely high on in the draft or something, with a paper trail. That would be the most egregious thing that could happen, IMO.

For example, if there is an email chain in the Cardinals files (which the FBI now has reason to go after) about a player (Say, Michael Wacha) and how the Cards should jump up their evaluation of him based on info from the Astros database, I imagine that would draw attention from the FBI and MLB...

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 10:24 AM
I'm not a hater, but this is pure gold.


Just one for example that shows the intellectual genius on full display.


]Kathryn Waellner ‏@KatWaellner 50m
50 minutes ago

The FBI is just jealous of the Cardinals success

dur??

I wasn't aware that the FBI was deep in a pennant chase...

ChiefsCountry
06-16-2015, 10:25 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Cardinals will post all the hacked documents on WachaLeaks.</p>&mdash; Steve Rushin (@SteveRushin) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteveRushin/status/610839944836317184">June 16, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 10:30 AM
Better just hope the Cardinals didn't nab a guy the Astros were extremely high on in the draft or something, with a paper trail. That would be the most egregious thing that could happen, IMO.

For example, if there is an email chain in the Cardinals files (which the FBI now has reason to go after) about a player (Say, Michael Wacha) and how the Cards should jump up their evaluation of him based on info from the Astros database, I imagine that would draw attention from the FBI and MLB...

Wacha was definitely the first name that came to mind for me as well. It was immediately after Luhnow left. My only thought being that the timelines on this suggest that this probably didn't happen until a little after Luhnow was gone. I'd imagine some guys in the front office saw/read/heard what Luhnow was doing now that he was in charge in Houston for awhile. They'd have started poking around and found something shortly thereafter.

The timelines will be made clear soon enough, but if I'm guessing I'm going to say this is probably something that happened in the 2013 range. So Wacha would likely not be in play but perhaps Jack Flaherty got bumped up? Kaminsky? I'd say the information would have likely been used in the 2013 and 2014 drafts.

C3HIEF3S
06-16-2015, 10:53 AM
lol

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 10:55 AM
This is a much bigger deal that Spygate, Deflategate, etc., if it were true.

Actual real-world felonies, actual cyber intrusions, actual people going to prison for those crimes being a distinct possibility.

Aside from that, you have potentially priceless information being stolen about player personnel, trade discussions etc etc.

Outside of actually throwing games, this would be as bad as it gets. Steroids are bad, but that's an individual crime by one player. This could be the biggest scandal since 1919. It's hard to think of any examples of cheating on this level in baseball

Anyone involved should be banned for life.

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 10:58 AM
This is a much bigger deal that Spygate, Deflategate, etc., if it were true.

Actual real-world felonies, actual cyber intrusions, actual people going to prison for those crimes being a distinct possibility.

Aside from that, you have potentially priceless information being stolen about player personnel, trade discussions etc etc.

Outside of actually throwing games, this would be as bad as it gets. Steroids are bad, but that's an individual crime by one player. This could be the biggest scandal since 1919.

Anyone involved should be banned for life.

Thank you. I'm really glad that someone gets this.

Computer hacking is a federal freaking crime.

ChiTown
06-16-2015, 10:59 AM
This is a much bigger deal that Spygate, Deflategate, etc., if it were true.

Actual real-world felonies, actual cyber intrusions, actual people going to prison for those crimes being a distinct possibility.

Aside from that, you have potentially priceless information being stolen about player personnel, trade discussions etc etc.

Outside of actually throwing games, this would be as bad as it gets. Steroids are bad, but that's an individual crime by one player. This could be the biggest scandal since 1919.

Anyone involved should be banned for life.

Agreed. Including the entire Cardinals Franchise..............

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 11:00 AM
Thank you. I'm really glad that someone gets this.

Computer hacking is a federal freaking crime.

We had the Black Sox, now the Black Birds?

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 11:01 AM
Thank you. I'm really glad that someone gets this.

Computer hacking is a federal freaking crime.

Your team isn't absolved. They'll just have partners in crime now.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:07 AM
Your team isn't absolved. They'll just have partners in crime now.

but it was just a little bit of air !

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 11:08 AM
but it was just a little bit of air !

It was probably only 3 or 4 emails!

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 11:13 AM
Your team isn't absolved. They'll just have partners in crime now.


ROFL

Except what the Patriots did was no "crime". You do get the difference between federal laws and NFL rules, I hope?

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 11:16 AM
but it was just a little bit of air !

It was probably only 3 or 4 emails!


ROFL

Except it might not have been ANY air. The physical evidence is weak as hell. Heck, the New York Times, relying on an independent research report, blew the Wells Report out of the water.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?_r=0

Our recommendation? When the N.F.L. hears Mr. Brady’s appeal of his suspension later this month, it should proceed with the knowledge that the Wells report is unreliable.


http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

Big punchline:

The fact that the average pressure of the Colts balls was significantly above the prediction of the Ideal Gas Law, while that of the Patriots balls was not, is inconsistent with the findings of the Wells report. Our conclusion that the warming of the balls during halftime is the key factor overlooked in the Wells report is supported by the observation that the readings of the intercepted Patriots football, measured separately from the other Patriots balls, came in almost precisely at the prediction of the law. Under the hypothesis asserted by the Well report, the odds of this Patriots ball matching the Ideal Gas Law prediction were between 1 out of 3 and 1 out of
300. It is therefore unlikely that the Patriots deflated the footballs.

kstater
06-16-2015, 11:17 AM
The postseason ban will be fun

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:18 AM
yeah

Kraft just accepted forfeiture of a 1st round pick, 4th round pick, and $1M because the Patriots did nothing wrong

that's what innocent people do

yep

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 11:24 AM
Thank you. I'm really glad that someone gets this.

Computer hacking is a federal freaking crime.

So is possession of a controlled substance; i.e. the steroid scandal. And at least that would hand provided a substantial competitive advantage.

The legal ramifications of a scandal aren't as critical to me as its impact of the play on the field.

Ultimately I see this as roughly equivalent in terms of degree to the BoSox winning the WS with Manny being as drugged as a racehorse.

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 11:24 AM
ROFL

Except what the Patriots did was no "crime". You do get the difference between federal laws and NFL rules, I hope?

Come on now, counselor. "Partners in crime" is a well known figure of speech.

Mr. Flopnuts
06-16-2015, 11:25 AM
yeah

Kraft just accepted forfeiture of a 1st round pick, 4th round pick, and $1M because the Patriots did nothing wrong

that's what innocent people do

yep

I know that's what I'd do! Especially after my buddymish destroyed evidence from the last time we got caught cheating.

BossChief
06-16-2015, 11:26 AM
Right, because footballs that may or may not have been deflated by a very slight amount is absolutely comparable to hacking an opposing team's computer network to get confidential information. :rolleyes:

But

But

But there is no RULE against hacking into an opposing teams database, so it was A OK.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-16-2015, 11:30 AM
Welp,

Embrace the full turn.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/de03a704214ad6acdbd9aca75bfb70e7/tumblr_mzgu3jVHMp1qheak7o6_250.gif

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:33 AM
But

But

But there is no RULE against hacking into an opposing teams database, so it was A OK.

I'm not too up in arms about this since I simply just don't give a fuck ...

but we already have DJ, Cards homer, defending the breach saying it provided no competitive advantage since the morons who 'hacked' the system leaked the information rather than continuing to cheat and gain an actual competitive advantage

that's about as good as Amnorix and his "well other teams were doing it, too!" defense every time the Pats get caught and forfeit a 1st round pick

that dude is still trying to point to science stating the Pats "didn't even cheat!" after their owner accepted the penalties handed down by the NFL (steep ones, at that).

That's not what innocent people do ... ever.

Marcellus
06-16-2015, 11:33 AM
Very odd to "hack" the system of a non rival, non division team. Like has been mentioned some idiot probably had the password and used it without higher level consent or knowledge.

Ridiculous shit and going to look bad regardless.

Don Corlemahomes
06-16-2015, 11:35 AM
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--9o4bR3ov--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/1299877588648584741.jpg

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 11:37 AM
Very odd to "hack" the system of a non rival, non division team. Like has been mentioned some idiot probably had the password and used it without higher level consent or knowledge.

Ridiculous shit and going to look bad regardless.

Maybe, but it also could have just been the one team with a formal Cardinals exec with bad password security.

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 11:38 AM
Very odd to "hack" the system of a non rival, non division team. Like has been mentioned some idiot probably had the password and used it without higher level consent or knowledge.

Ridiculous shit and going to look bad regardless.

Not really that odd, when you consider how much the front offices dislike each other.

The teams may not really be rivals anymore, but the people working in the front offices certainly are.

BossChief
06-16-2015, 11:40 AM
Who's to say they didn't do something similar with other teams, too?

-I have no dog in this fight-

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:41 AM
I will agree, though, because I remember when they posted the Astros hack on deadspin everyone was like, "lol what a moron."

So, competitive advantage or no, it does seem like a move made out of spite. So I'll let DJ have that one.

As for Amnorix steering the thread towards NE's cheating ... once your owner accepts penalties levied down for cheating, arguing that your team didn't actually cheat is about the most ridiculous thing you could do, well, unless you're a total idiot homer.

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 11:41 AM
Who's to say they didn't do something similar with other teams, too?

-I have no dog in this fight-

Could be, if this was authorized on a remotely high level. The difference would be opportunity, I would think.

Saul Good
06-16-2015, 11:41 AM
We had the Black Sox, now the Black Birds?

The Black Squaks?

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 11:43 AM
But

But

But there is no RULE against hacking into an opposing teams database, so it was A OK.

Yes, actually, hacking into other peoples computers is something that the government has rules about

Don Corlemahomes
06-16-2015, 11:43 AM
Who's to say they didn't do something similar with other teams, too?

-I have no dog in this fight-

Well, unless other teams have former cardinal executives who don't change their passwords and put information on an extremely vulnerable platform, I'd say it's highly unlikely.

MagicHef
06-16-2015, 11:44 AM
ROFL

Except it might not have been ANY air. The physical evidence is weak as hell. Heck, the New York Times, relying on an independent research report, blew the Wells Report out of the water.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?_r=0




http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

Big punchline:

Why is a conservative political thinktank doing research on footballs?

Anyway, remember how I was talking a few weeks ago about how you have to assume an extremely specific timeline (invented out of thin air by a Patriots fan) of what happened during the halftime measurements to come to this conclusion? These guys don't just assume it, they state it as fact in their report with no evidence.

Also, to reach their conclusion, they're assuming that a football is a rigid vessel. I don't think it is, do you?

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 11:46 AM
yeah

Kraft just accepted forfeiture of a 1st round pick, 4th round pick, and $1M because the Patriots did nothing wrong

that's what innocent people do

yep


Actually, he accepted it because there is really no way to fight it. The teams aren't subject to the collective bargaining agreement, and the bylaws give all power to the commissioner. His options were accept it or go full rogue and bring a lawsuit against Goodell and the League. Basically, the full Al Davis route.

And even then it's not clear how he could win. The NFL bylaws vest all power to adjudicate these types of things to the Commissioner.

Basically, the NFL clubs, long before Kraft or pretty much any of the current owners were involved, gave authority to the Commissioner to decide issues like this. Doesn't matter if any given club doesn't like it or not, there's very little recourse for them.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:47 AM
Why is a conservative political thinktank doing research on footballs?

Anyway, remember how I was talking a few weeks ago about how you have to assume an extremely specific timeline (invented out of thin air by a Patriots fan) of what happened during the halftime measurements to come to this conclusion? These guys don't just assume it, they state it as fact in their report with no evidence.

Also, to reach their conclusion, they're assuming that a football is a rigid vessel. I don't think it is, do you?

I'd just give it up, man. It's like arguing Kobe/LeBron with Arrow 2. You can post 1500 statistics that all point 1 way and it doesn't matter.

The owner of the team accepted the penalties levied for being caught cheating. He accepted them. That is not what innocent people do. It wasn't a plea bargain, it wasn't anything. The NFL said, "this is what we fine you. This is what you lose." And Kraft accepted that as is.

Anyone arguing that they didn't cheat, at this point, is a total fucking idiot.

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 11:48 AM
Why is a conservative political thinktank doing research on footballs?

Anyway, remember how I was talking a few weeks ago about how you have to assume an extremely specific timeline (invented out of thin air by a Patriots fan) of what happened during the halftime measurements to come to this conclusion? These guys don't just assume it, they state it as fact in their report with no evidence.

Also, to reach their conclusion, they're assuming that a football is a rigid vessel. I don't think it is, do you?

A football can be rigid enough a vessel to resist deformation at a certain pressure, which is all that matters in this case.

MagicHef
06-16-2015, 11:51 AM
A football can be rigid enough a vessel to resist deformation at a certain pressure, which is all that matters in this case.

No, a rigid vessel means that the container has the same volume regardless of pressure, not that it resists deformation when at pressure. A football is not a rigid vessel.

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 11:51 AM
That's not what innocent people do ... ever.



ROFL

Yeah, right. It's all about choices and options. If your options/choices suck, then you do what you have to, even if it means swallowing a bitter pill.

There are millions of examples, from innocent people who can't afford to fight the charges so they plead guilty to something that doesn't carry jail time, to someone who decides to settle a discrimination claim because their choices are paying $5,000 to the shitty employee they fired or paying $25,000+ to lawyers to defend the claim, with an uncertain outcome, that will take a year or three to reach.

Or the person/company who got fucked when the other side breached the contract, or didn't perform, who let them get away with it because they didn't want to deal with it, or couldn't afford the lawyers to sue them, or whatever. They paid someone else to do it instead, paying 1.5 or double the amount necessary (or more) even though they shouldn't have had to.

Here in the real world, it's all about options and choices.

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 11:53 AM
Why is a conservative political thinktank doing research on footballs?

Anyway, remember how I was talking a few weeks ago about how you have to assume an extremely specific timeline (invented out of thin air by a Patriots fan) of what happened during the halftime measurements to come to this conclusion? These guys don't just assume it, they state it as fact in their report with no evidence.

Also, to reach their conclusion, they're assuming that a football is a rigid vessel. I don't think it is, do you?


Do you mean measuring the Colts footballs last? No evidence? They said they ran out of time when doing the Colts footballs. What does that suggest? That they did the Pats balls first, and THEN the Colts balls. Heck, "suggest" is too weak a word. What other possible conclusion could there be.

And bottom line is the Wells report should have included the timeline, and should have factored it in, or ELIMINATED IT, but they didn't.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 11:56 AM
but we already have DJ, Cards homer, defending the breach saying it provided no competitive advantage since the morons who 'hacked' the system leaked the information rather than continuing to cheat and gain an actual competitive advantage


First - short of Hamas, I'm almost certainly the most critical Cardinal fan on this board and I'm gonna guess anybody in the Cardinals thread would echo that. Fan? Yes. Homer? Get the fuck outta here with that.

Second - as a fan of the team, I can actually speak intelligently to the background of some of the parties involved here - you cannot. If nothing else, Duncan's corroboration supports that point and he does have insider contacts that I do not. It provides a very feasible alternative motive for the Luhnow data hack. As the latter NYT article pointed out - why would they bother breaking into the system of the worst team in baseball who's data they already had if it wasn't expressly to spite Jeff Luhnow?

If you believe that there was a substantial competitive advantage gained here - please expound. The Cardinals almost certainly have the systems that Luhnow was incorporating at the time of the data breach. They have any of the information they would have been able to get. There's no new insight to be gleaned here had there been had they hacked any other team in baseball. This one particular GM simply had no new insight to offer them as he was running the Cardinals player procurement system for 5 years or so before he left.

There's no benefit to price enforcing on a team outside the division and again, if they used it to get a FA to sign with them, it could have only been Peralta - the only key FA signing they made in that time period. The only major trades they made were for guys like Mujica. The Astros, being in a complete rebuild, would not have been in on guys like Mujica and Peralta. They could have found out some intel on how other teams value their players but guess how else they could have found that out? Call the other teams. Those teams are going to be just as likely to feed misinformation to the Astros as they are the Cardinals. The only true 'trustworthy' intel would have been internal.

I also acknowledged that as the dust settles it could turn out that they did use this to their advantage in some instances, in which case I'll view it differently. However, right now, based on the timelines of the data leaked, this appears almost certainly to have occurred in the Spring of 2013 and maybe have impacted 2 drafts, no trades and no FA signings.

Explain how I'm being a homer here.

Had this been the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, D-Rays....literally ANY other team, then the motive would have been clearly competitive and the takeaway could have been far more substantial. It wasn't. My analysis is specific to this instance and the particular GM/System that was compromised. How is that hard to digest?

Hootie
06-16-2015, 11:58 AM
so the NFL really had a lot to gain by suspending the face of the league and docking the Patriots more picks and money for a cheating scandal that never existed

yeah man

totally

that is way more likely than ... THE PATRIOTS CHEATED. AGAIN.

way, way more likely

God you're dumb.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 11:59 AM
Who's to say they didn't do something similar with other teams, too?

-I have no dog in this fight-

Did you see how they got in?

They literally used the list of his past passwords to access his system. Because of his experience with the Cards, they'd have probably been able to find whatever external server he housed in on pretty easily. This looks like they just logged into a cloud-based system.

This wouldn't be applicable to any other team. The only other possibility would be Oakland where their former director of scouting, Dan Kantrovitz, is now the assistant GM. I'm pretty sure Dan Kantrovitz isn't controlling Billy Beane's player procurement software.

MagicHef
06-16-2015, 12:06 PM
Do you mean measuring the Colts footballs last? No evidence? They said they ran out of time when doing the Colts footballs. What does that suggest? That they did the Pats balls first, and THEN the Colts balls. Heck, "suggest" is too weak a word. What other possible conclusion could there be.

And bottom line is the Wells report should have included the timeline, and should have factored it in, or ELIMINATED IT, but they didn't.

No, they couldn't come up with any temperature coefficients that made sense with that scenario, so they had to invent a different one to try to fit their explanation into the data: there was a significant break in between measuring the last Patriot ball and the first Colt ball. The made up scenario states that the officials measured all of the Patriot balls, stopped measuring to re-inflate all of the Patriot balls, and then proceeded to measure all of the Colt balls. Basically, the first Colt ball should have warmed up just about the same amount as the last Patriot ball in any scenario other than this specific one, and the data does not support this.

mr. tegu
06-16-2015, 12:07 PM
Whoever leaked the initial hacking information a while back could have been upset that they were being forced to do it. It just as easily could have been orders from the higher ups just as it could have been a bit lower person going rogue.

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 12:08 PM
First - short of Hamas, I'm almost certainly the most critical Cardinal fan on this board and I'm gonna guess anybody in the Cardinals thread would echo that. Fan? Yes. Homer? Get the fuck outta here with that.

Second - as a fan of the team, I can actually speak intelligently to the background of some of the parties involved here - you cannot. If nothing else, Duncan's corroboration supports that point and he does have insider contacts that I do not. It provides a very feasible alternative motive for the Luhnow data hack. As the latter NYT article pointed out - why would they bother breaking into the system of the worst team in baseball who's data they already had if it wasn't expressly to spite Jeff Luhnow?

If you believe that there was a substantial competitive advantage gained here - please expound. The Cardinals almost certainly have the systems that Luhnow was incorporating at the time of the data breach. They have any of the information they would have been able to get. There's no new insight to be gleaned here had there been had they hacked any other team in baseball. This one particular GM simply had no new insight to offer them as he was running the Cardinals player procurement system for 5 years or so before he left.

There's no benefit to price enforcing on a team outside the division and again, if they used it to get a FA to sign with them, it could have only been Peralta - the only key FA signing they made in that time period. The only major trades they made were for guys like Mujica. The Astros, being in a complete rebuild, would not have been in on guys like Mujica and Peralta. They could have found out some intel on how other teams value their players but guess how else they could have found that out? Call the other teams. Those teams are going to be just as likely to feed misinformation to the Astros as they are the Cardinals. The only true 'trustworthy' intel would have been internal.

I also acknowledged that as the dust settles it could turn out that they did use this to their advantage in some instances, in which case I'll view it differently. However, right now, based on the timelines of the data leaked, this appears almost certainly to have occurred in the Spring of 2013 and maybe have impacted 2 drafts, no trades and no FA signings.

Explain how I'm being a homer here.

Had this been the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, D-Rays....literally ANY other team, then the motive would have been clearly competitive and the takeaway could have been far more substantial. It wasn't. My analysis is specific to this instance and the particular GM/System that was compromised. How is that hard to digest?

One question: How many scouts did Luhnow take with him? I could see the value of having another team's scouting reports on prospects/players/advanced scouting/shift data/etc.

The only real value I could have seen the Cardinals gleaning from this hack is related to that type of scout info.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 12:14 PM
Whoever leaked the initial hacking information a while back could have been upset that they were being forced to do it. It just as easily could have been orders from the higher ups just as it could have been a bit lower person going rogue.

If that were the case, they'd have leaked that the Cardinals ordered it. If they were that upset, they'd have burned the house down. It's possible, sure, but "just as easily"...nah.

But here's the thing - the FBI has the house that the system was accessed from and they know the former Cardinals employee(s) that resided there at the time. They have the names and the names will come out.

There's not gonna be a hell of a lot that doesn't get found out here. If Mozeliak sanctioned it, heads will definitely roll and that sucks a great deal because Mozeliak was kicking some substantial ass well before Luhnow even left. Now I've always been of the mind that our best talent evaluater went out the door with Luhnow but Mozeliak is a damn shrewd GM in his own right. He's not as good at finding the hitters that Luhnow was, but he's developed a damn good system for pitching and has largely been aces in fishing/cutting bait on veteran players.

We have, at worst, a top 10 MLB GM in St. Louis and almost certainly a top 5 front office overall in terms of a common culture and organizational stability. If this petty horseshit from a schism that occurred a decade ago implodes that, it's going to be damn disappointing.

But if Moe sanctioned it, there's no alternative. In the end, I guess it would be karmic justice. The Cards do seem to have some Devilmagic that leads to their success. I have no idea how a squad with their 1 and 2 starters, 3 and 4 hitters and setup man (now closer as well) all injured has the best record in baseball by 4 games, especially with the worst manager at the helm I've ever seen. It makes no sense. But it would figure that something like this is what takes them down.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 12:17 PM
I'm not going to pretend to know much about Mike Matheny and his managing. I assume it would drive me about as crazy as Ned Yost and Ned Yost's bullpen management.

I will, however, point out that a manager, in the regular season, is basically +-2 wins for his team, tops.

The Cardinals were the same fan base that hated Tony LaRussa.

Swanman
06-16-2015, 12:34 PM
I'm not going to pretend to know much about Mike Matheny and his managing. I assume it would drive me about as crazy as Ned Yost and Ned Yost's bullpen management.

I will, however, point out that a manager, in the regular season, is basically +-2 wins for his team, tops.

The Cardinals were the same fan base that hated Tony LaRussa.

In the regular season that may be true but once you get into the playoffs, the manager can have a much greater effect so giving or taking 1 game in a series due to managing can have a gigantic impact. Plus, decisions made by a manager can have lasting effects that go into the playoffs. For example, Matheny has always been a guy to grind his starting pitchers into dust during the regular season so way too many of them have tired arms or get hurt before the postseason. All in all, he is an absolutely god awful manager that has been gifted with a consistently great roster roster and a great front office.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 12:39 PM
I'm not going to pretend to know much about Mike Matheny and his managing. I assume it would drive me about as crazy as Ned Yost and Ned Yost's bullpen management.

I will, however, point out that a manager, in the regular season, is basically +-2 wins for his team, tops.

The Cardinals were the same fan base that hated Tony LaRussa.

The problem with Matheny is the bizarre loyalty and the fact that he flogs his top 3 bullpen arms.

Look at every team he's run and he's lost either his setup man, primary lefty or closer for at least 1/2 the season. It's because he refuses to use anyone else. We have a thirteen man pitching staff right now and Kevin Siegrist has pitched 4 times in the last five games, the same Siegrist that lost 5 mph off his fastball and missed almost all of 2014 (after making 45 appearances in 100 games as a 23 yr old rook) and is only just now getting healthy again. He's been in 32 of the Cardinals 63 games so far. Care to guess how long he'll last? He broke down after appearing in 32 of 68 last season. I'm giving him another month. Walden appeared in 12 of the first 20 and has now missed 2 months.

Motte, Boggs, Rzepczynski, Mujica, Siegrist, Rosenthal, Walden - 1 pitcher over 3 years of managing this club has made it through multiple seasons unscathed and it's probably because he's never quite been one of Matheny's favorite 3: Seth Maness. Otherwise you can count on either his closer, setup man or #1 lefty missing months of the season every single year.

And again, the man feels compelled to utilize a 13 man pitching staff so he can play with a short bench (that is presently 2 catchers, Pete Kozma - worst player in baseball, and Peter Bourjos) and still go more than a week without even using a hot reliever like Villanueva.

And lets not even discuss the fact that for the 2nd consecutive season our cleanup hitter's been removed from the lineup and the team has actually improved because Matheny wouldn't bench a struggling Craig or Adams. Instead he'd just keep sending them out there to kill rallies. It took a trade and an injury to get two negative WAR hitters out of the cleanup spot.

Ultimately I think tactics sway anywhere from 3-5 games/season personally. Not a huge number, but not insignificant. But they matter more in the playoffs and they matter if they're getting your guys injured due to overuse.

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 12:46 PM
First - short of Hamas, I'm almost certainly the most critical Cardinal fan on this board and I'm gonna guess anybody in the Cardinals thread would echo that. Fan? Yes. Homer? Get the fuck outta here with that.

Second - as a fan of the team, I can actually speak intelligently to the background of some of the parties involved here - you cannot. If nothing else, Duncan's corroboration supports that point and he does have insider contacts that I do not. It provides a very feasible alternative motive for the Luhnow data hack. As the latter NYT article pointed out - why would they bother breaking into the system of the worst team in baseball who's data they already had if it wasn't expressly to spite Jeff Luhnow?

If you believe that there was a substantial competitive advantage gained here - please expound. The Cardinals almost certainly have the systems that Luhnow was incorporating at the time of the data breach. They have any of the information they would have been able to get. There's no new insight to be gleaned here had there been had they hacked any other team in baseball. This one particular GM simply had no new insight to offer them as he was running the Cardinals player procurement system for 5 years or so before he left.

There's no benefit to price enforcing on a team outside the division and again, if they used it to get a FA to sign with them, it could have only been Peralta - the only key FA signing they made in that time period. The only major trades they made were for guys like Mujica. The Astros, being in a complete rebuild, would not have been in on guys like Mujica and Peralta. They could have found out some intel on how other teams value their players but guess how else they could have found that out? Call the other teams. Those teams are going to be just as likely to feed misinformation to the Astros as they are the Cardinals. The only true 'trustworthy' intel would have been internal.

I also acknowledged that as the dust settles it could turn out that they did use this to their advantage in some instances, in which case I'll view it differently. However, right now, based on the timelines of the data leaked, this appears almost certainly to have occurred in the Spring of 2013 and maybe have impacted 2 drafts, no trades and no FA signings.

Explain how I'm being a homer here.

Had this been the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, D-Rays....literally ANY other team, then the motive would have been clearly competitive and the takeaway could have been far more substantial. It wasn't. My analysis is specific to this instance and the particular GM/System that was compromised. How is that hard to digest?

Personally, I think that damaging the competitive advantage of another team out of spite is just as bad for baseball as cheating for you own gain. I mean, when the leak came out it was a big embarrassment for the Astros and seemed to hurt them when it came to trade discussions. As it stands right now, barring significant new info coming to light, I think anyone who authorized/performed these invasions should be banned from the sport for life.

Big Smoke
06-16-2015, 12:48 PM
Tisk tisk.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 12:51 PM
All in all, he is an absolutely god awful manager that has been gifted with a consistently great roster roster and a great front office.

this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?

duncan_idaho
06-16-2015, 12:54 PM
this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?

To maintain "the Cardinal way" rabble, rabble, rabble.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 12:59 PM
Personally, I think that damaging the competitive advantage of another team out of spite is just as bad for baseball as cheating for you own gain. I mean, when the leak came out it was a big embarrassment for the Astros and seemed to hurt them when it came to trade discussions. As it stands right now, barring significant new info coming to light, I think anyone who authorized/performed these invasions should be banned from the sport for life.

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 01:02 PM
I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

Well I hope for y'all's sake this isn't as bad as it looks and it was some rogue dipshit. I know STL fans get tons of hate, but some of my best friends live and die with this team. This would be about the only thing that could make this Royals fans feel bad for them. :)

ChiTown
06-16-2015, 01:03 PM
I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

I'm good with Banning the Cardinal Franchise from post-season play for the next 5 years and reinstating Pete Rose back into baseball.:evil:

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 01:09 PM
this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?

Because he's a fan favorite. And an argument could be made that there was no obvious reason that he'd be a god-awful manager at the time he was hired. Then again, there was no reason that he'd be a good one either - he had precisely zero games of managing experience above the little league level.

But because he inherited a WS winner that was loaded to the gills with cost-controlled arms, not to mention an entire top of the order at below market value, he's won ballgames. He got lucky that he took over a team that has a seemingly unending supply of major league quality hurlers right at the time that offense plummeted and that style of game became en vogue again.

As a consequence, he's untouchable. It's not because of his merits but rather a happy coincidence of roster construction and timing that he fell ass-backwards into.

The Cardinals would have won another WS and another pennant had LaRussa still been running the team over the last 3 seasons, IMO. I don't know what this means, really, but it's interesting to note that Matheny's teams have led post-season series only to lose 3 straight games to end their season in every year Matheny's managed the squad. As I see it, you're looking at a manager that simply doesn't have a Plan B. Once his opponent zigged, Matheny just sat there like a cow staring at a new gate and his team would implode.

wazu
06-16-2015, 01:16 PM
Well I hope for y'all's sake this isn't as bad as it looks and it was some rogue dipshit. I know STL fans get tons of hate, but some of my best friends live and die with this team. This would be about the only thing that could make this Royals fans feel bad for them. :)

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 01:24 PM
Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

That's true. I'll be honest, I'd pull it out in a pinch if a baseball discussion got heated. Of course I'm a terrible friend.

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 01:27 PM
That's true. I'll be honest, I'd pull it out in a pinch if I'm losing a baseball argument. Of course I'm a terrible friend.

FMP

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 01:30 PM
Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

Yes but y'see, I don't precisely give a wet shit about what the public will buy. Just as I wouldn't were I in Amnorix's shoes w/r/t the Patriots.

The public is a fickle beast that generally does resent sustained success - period. I understand that and I don't mind that. The Cardinals were nobody's darlings even before this so I don't care that this will further sully them in the eyes of the national public.

What I care about is that a front office that has excelled over the last decade or so largely because of its stability remains intact. If the rogue dipshit explanation is true, my front office remains in place and the wheels keep spinning...at least until that never-ending mass of !@#$ing Cubs premier hitting prospects runs us down. That happens regardless of whether or not 'the public will buy it'.

If 'rogue dipshit' isn't true...well damn, why couldn't this have happened a year ago so we could blow it up and steal Joe Maddon?

Besides - is there ANY outcome that's going to sate the public bloodlust here? Jesus, they could have emails from Mozeliak directing it, he could be fired on the spot and then kill himself and the national public would still laugh at the Cards misery. The Cards aren't coming out of this clear regardless of what happens so my druther's are that they at least come out of it with their front office largely intact.

OnTheWarpath15
06-16-2015, 01:31 PM
Favorite tweet so far:

The Cardinals hacked into the Phillies network first, but only found a game of Solitaire.

-DJ Short

LMAO

Hootie
06-16-2015, 01:33 PM
Uh no.

The Pats had to hear about Spygate for approximately 2 years before everyone forgot and stopped caring. It was literally dead until this latest cheating scandal.

This will be a big deal for about 6 months after the conclusion and then everyone will stop caring.

The public has the attention span that can only be measured in nano seconds.

BDj23
06-16-2015, 01:39 PM
http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/06/16/newsviews-cardinals-investigated-for-hacking/

I know the vast majority of you hate the Cardinals, but this is a little less knee jerk and echos what DJ was saying.

Siap

Hootie
06-16-2015, 01:40 PM
of course we would laugh at the Cards misery ... every team deserves to have some misery that isn't simply losing in game 5 of the NLCS every year they don't win a god damn World Series

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 01:43 PM
Uh no.

The Pats had to hear about Spygate for approximately 2 years before everyone forgot and stopped caring. It was literally dead until this latest cheating scandal.

This will be a big deal for about 6 months after the conclusion and then everyone will stop caring.

The public has the attention span that can only be measured in nano seconds.

Right up until they perform again.

The public forgot about Spygate...until the Pats were in another Super Bowl. Then they had to go through the wringer again. It'll be the same way with the Cards. The public will excoriate them every time they make the post-season. There's pretty much a cottage industry of trolling 'the BFIB' at this point - this will only get it spun up a little more.

Like I said - I don't really care about public reaction. I'd just really prefer see a good front office not get broken up. Baseball is the most rewarding sport there is when you have a good team, IMO. You get nightly content and if it's a bad outcome then you get a chance to wash it out the next night. Even when the Chiefs are good, it's one day a week with Monday as an afterglow and Friday as a gear up. Hockey and basketball are just so beholden to their playoffs that I don't give a shit during the regular season at all.

I'm not terribly interested in 90 loss seasons if we can avoid them.

BDj23
06-16-2015, 01:46 PM
of course we would laugh at the Cards misery ... every team deserves to have some misery that isn't simply losing in game 5 of the NLCS every year they don't win a god damn World Series

I understand this. Hence that being my first post in this thread.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 01:48 PM
as a guy who has spent his entire life hating the Cardinals ... I just can't figure out why I should care about this one?

I truly don't give a shit if they were stealing scouting reports from the Astros or if they were trying to embarrass them or what not

this one might be the most serious because they are actually committing a true crime here ... but it's the "cheating" scandal that I simply don't give a fuck about

I didn't care about steroids, either. Hell, I wish players were still juicing. Not killing me, and I dig the long ball (and it made fantasy baseball more fun, too).

Bambi
06-16-2015, 01:54 PM
Is Mizzou still going to want to do the Cardinals hat?

What a disaster...

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stl/images/ticketing/y2015/mizzou_hat_300x200.png

Shox
06-16-2015, 01:55 PM
What they gained will make zero impact. Assuming the report is true, the mere fact Cardinal personnel hacked into an opponents system is all that matters. That is a crime, a federal crime I believe. The Cardinals are going to get whacked pretty hard for this one.

wazu
06-16-2015, 01:55 PM
Yes but y'see, I don't precisely give a wet shit about what the public will buy. Just as I wouldn't were I in Amnorix's shoes w/r/t the Patriots.

The public is a fickle beast that generally does resent sustained success - period. I understand that and I don't mind that. The Cardinals were nobody's darlings even before this so I don't care that this will further sully them in the eyes of the national public.

What I care about is that a front office that has excelled over the last decade or so largely because of its stability remains intact. If the rogue dipshit explanation is true, my front office remains in place and the wheels keep spinning...at least until that never-ending mass of !@#$ing Cubs premier hitting prospects runs us down. That happens regardless of whether or not 'the public will buy it'.

If 'rogue dipshit' isn't true...well damn, why couldn't this have happened a year ago so we could blow it up and steal Joe Maddon?

Besides - is there ANY outcome that's going to sate the public bloodlust here? Jesus, they could have emails from Mozeliak directing it, he could be fired on the spot and then kill himself and the national public would still laugh at the Cards misery. The Cards aren't coming out of this clear regardless of what happens so my druther's are that they at least come out of it with their front office largely intact.

I see it differently. The Cards are a proud franchise and part of that pride isn't just from winning, but from a rich culture that has always been generally admired around the country. A hit to their integrity of this magnitude is painful. Even as a Royals fan I don't want to see it. You don't want to become the Patriots. There is a lot more at stake here than just a few more good years.

Marcellus
06-16-2015, 01:56 PM
Rumor on MLB Radio is it was 2 disgruntled Cards employees pissed at Lunhow for not bringing them to Houston and were trying to make him look bad.

Not sure if they are current or ex employees or where they got that info.

Swanman
06-16-2015, 01:58 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F6ySNAA_2Iw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bambi
06-16-2015, 01:59 PM
Rumor on MLB Radio is it was 2 disgruntled Cards employees pissed at Lunhow for not bringing them to Houston and were trying to make him look bad.

Not sure if they are current or ex employees or where they got that info.

So they try and make someone who works for the Astros "look bad" and end up screwing their own employer?

Sounds about right, haha

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 02:01 PM
I see it differently. The Cards are a proud franchise and part of that pride isn't just from winning, but from a rich culture that has always been generally admired around the country. A hit to their integrity of this magnitude is painful. Even as a Royals fan I don't want to see it. You don't want to become the Patriots. There is a lot more at stake here than just a few more good years.

And that may be the case; but that's going to be the case either way. The damage there is done.

I'd prefer avoid the shot to the organization's prestige but I just don't see it as avoidable at this point. The Cards have combined the mortal sins of success and percieved hypocrisy. Regardless of whether or not the Cards and their fans hold themselves out as a higher, more 'pure' form of the game, there's definitely a perception that they do. And when something like this falls on their heads...well there's just not a good way to rebound without losing some shine.

Reaper16
06-16-2015, 02:05 PM
Welp,

Embrace the full turn.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/de03a704214ad6acdbd9aca75bfb70e7/tumblr_mzgu3jVHMp1qheak7o6_250.gif

This is not a turn. At best the Cards have been John Cena for years: a megahero to their fans but in practice not only gets booed for being stale (albeit ultra-successful too) but also acts like a classic heel (i.e. a bully, a sore loser, etc).

kcpasco
06-16-2015, 02:08 PM
Don't care, at this point I'll just embrace the hate. Wear it like a badge of honor.

kysirsoze
06-16-2015, 02:14 PM
Don't care, at this point I'll just embrace the hate. Wear it like a badge of honor.

Not much else to do.

Rams Fan
06-16-2015, 02:20 PM
Guess I should be like Amnorix and continue denying any wrong doing of a team I support.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 02:22 PM
Guess I should be like Amnorix and continue denying any wrong doing of a team I support.

that's the honorable thing to do

kcpasco
06-16-2015, 02:22 PM
I blame the Chinese.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 02:22 PM
I blame the Chinese.

now you're buying into the Patriots way!

Rams Fan
06-16-2015, 02:23 PM
that's the honorable thing to do

I mean if you believe something didn't happen, even though there's evidence that something happened, your belief is ultimately correct, right?

Amnorix
06-16-2015, 02:27 PM
Guess I should be like Amnorix and continue denying any wrong doing of a team I support.


The Patriots violated the new rules handed down by the NFL in connection with Spygate. I have never denied that. I have seen internet chatter that the NFL could not unilaterally change those rules as it didn't go through the Competition Committee or otherwise (the NFL just sent a letter changing the rules), but I haven't delved much into that.

There's tremendous confusion over what Spygate was and wasn't, however, and I try to clarify that for those who are confused. :D

Deflategate seems to me to be mostly an unbelievably harsh penalty for sloppy procedures and very questionable science underlying the decision that rules were broken. Even if rules were broken, it seems to be me to the equivalent of jaywalking.

Neither are remotely on par with hacking the computer network of a rival team. Like not remotely in the same stratosphere.

Rams Fan
06-16-2015, 02:29 PM
The Patriots violated the new rules handed down by the NFL in connection with Spygate. I have never denied that. I have seen internet chatter that the NFL could not unilaterally change those rules as it didn't go through the Competition Committee or otherwise (the NFL just sent a letter changing the rules), but I haven't delved much into that.

There's tremendous confusion over what Spygate was and wasn't, however, and I try to clarify that for those who are confused. :D

Deflategate seems to me to be mostly an unbelievably harsh penalty for sloppy procedures and very questionable science underlying the decision that rules were broken. Even if rules were broken, it seems to be me to the equivalent of jaywalking.

Neither are remotely on par with hacking the computer network of a rival team. Like not remotely in the same stratosphere.

I'm not disagreeing about Deflategate. The entire thing is dumb.

However, Belichick should have been punished at least as much as Payton was. And, assuming the allegations are true against the Cardinals, whoever is responsible needs to be given the ax by the Cardinals or banned by MLB for life.

kcpasco
06-16-2015, 02:32 PM
So that's where Rosenthal went. He is on the run from the Feds.

Hootie
06-16-2015, 02:35 PM
the Patriots lost a 1st and 4th and were fined double the league maximum (2nd offense) for "jaywalking."

for sure

Marcellus
06-16-2015, 02:42 PM
So that's where Rosenthal went. He is on the run from the Feds.

Forearm tightness Lynn had was from sitting at a computer all night every night hacking MLB data bases.

kcxiv
06-16-2015, 02:55 PM
Deflategate seems to me to be mostly an unbelievably harsh penalty for sloppy procedures and very questionable science underlying the decision that rules were broken. Even if rules were broken, it seems to be me to the equivalent of jaywalking.

Neither are remotely on par with hacking the computer network of a rival team. Like not remotely in the same stratosphere.
As a Patriot hater, this is the most stupidest fucking suspension in the history of sports. getting Suspended because the ball was deflated a little bit. fucking really?


Lets be real he was only suspended because he told the NFL fuck you im not handing over my cell phone.

Rausch
06-16-2015, 02:58 PM
Lets be real he was only suspended because he told the NFL **** you im not handing over my cell phone.

And lying to them during the investigation...

Munson
06-16-2015, 03:00 PM
Guilty as charged!

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 03:01 PM
The Patriots violated the new rules handed down by the NFL in connection with Spygate.

Deflategate seems to me to be mostly an unbelievably harsh penalty for sloppy procedures and... rules were broken. Even if rules were broken, it seems to be me to the equivalent of jaywalking.

Neither are remotely on par with hacking the computer network of a rival team. Like not remotely in the same stratosphere.

Violating a league rule and doing things that land people in prison, more or less industrial espionage that entailed committing felonies, are indeed not even close to one another.

This is not close to what Pete Rose did, betting on games his team was in. This is not what favorite son Mark McGwire did, even though he was the second worst offender in history in that regard, that was only individual cheating.

This is an integrity of the game issue really. If teams can't run scouting organizations and correspond with each other without fear of some other team spying on them or stealing their information, what pretense of fair play is there?

BigMeatballDave
06-16-2015, 03:03 PM
What kind of punishment could MLB possibly do here if guilty?

Eleazar
06-16-2015, 03:05 PM
What kind of punishment could MLB possibly do here if guilty?

The people involved must be banned for life. People who knew or should have known need some other sort of ban. Don't know what you could do to a team as a whole in MLB

kcpasco
06-16-2015, 03:12 PM
The people involved must be banned for life. People who knew or should have known need some other sort of ban. Don't know what you could do to a team as a whole in MLB

People that should have known? Commissioner or maybe Obama?

Pablo
06-16-2015, 03:17 PM
What kind of punishment could MLB possibly do here if guilty?Live PPV execution of 100,000 random fans.

Demonpenz
06-16-2015, 03:20 PM
@demonpenz David Glass never gets hacked because to save money he had all files on players saved on re-formated AOL disks retweeted 104 favorites 250

BDj23
06-16-2015, 03:22 PM
Live PPV execution of 100,000 random fans.

Simmer down, Danny Parkins.

Demonpenz
06-16-2015, 03:30 PM
I wish they would all die

Pablo
06-16-2015, 03:41 PM
Simmer down, Danny Parkins.

:shrug:

I was only suggesting a fair and rational punishment.

Pablo
06-16-2015, 03:44 PM
Oh, and I'm no Parkins. That dude has a xzytop chin.

BDj23
06-16-2015, 03:51 PM
Oh, and I'm no Parkins. That dude has a xzytop chin.

LMAO

Dragonocho
06-16-2015, 03:55 PM
When they arrest the guys who actually did this they will prosecute federally. I've seen or heard no evidence this was a conspiracy. If it is, Katie bar the door.

I'm a Royals fan and respect the Cardinals success. I hope for them this was criminally poor decision making by some twenty somethings.

DJ's left nut
06-16-2015, 04:09 PM
HAHAHAHA!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHpj31lVEAEuK5H.jpg

{tips cap}

Al Bundy
06-16-2015, 04:30 PM
Live PPV execution of 100,000 random fans.
I am ALL for that...

DJJasonp
06-16-2015, 04:47 PM
So every time during the all star game that Joe buck wants to bring up the royals and voting "travesty".....the color guy should bring up cardinals hacking.....you know, just to be fair.

PunkinDrublic
06-16-2015, 04:50 PM
Perfect distraction story for non Royals fans. Anything that keeps them from voting against Royals players!

OnTheWarpath15
06-16-2015, 05:04 PM
Next favorite tweet:

Turns out the Cardinals were doing nothing more than trying to find Brett Wallace.

-Dan O'Neill

Superturtle
06-16-2015, 05:20 PM
Anyone else find it hilarious that bambi slunk out of the conference shit talk thread only to post about Mizzou in a thread that literally had nothing to do with them?

BDj23
06-16-2015, 05:30 PM
Anyone else find it hilarious that bambi slunk out of the conference shit talk thread only to post about Mizzou in a thread that literally had nothing to do with them?

I was gonna point that out.. But he isn't worth the time.

Marcellus
06-16-2015, 07:10 PM
Next favorite tweet:

Turns out the Cardinals were doing nothing more than trying to find Brett Wallace.

-Dan O'Neill

LMAO what happened to that guy anyway?

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 07:27 PM
ROFL

Except it might not have been ANY air. The physical evidence is weak as hell. Heck, the New York Times, relying on an independent research report, blew the Wells Report out of the water.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?_r=0




http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/On-the-Wells-report.pdf

Big punchline:
Take it back to the Patriots thread. I don't want to rehash this shit here.
There is going to be plenty of juicy dirt making its way to the news cycle to keep this thread nice and fat on its own.

Not to mention, given the geographic proximity and members of CP that root for said club, the responses should be priceless or dead silence.

ChiefsCountry
06-16-2015, 07:40 PM
.

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 07:51 PM
.
Remember, remember...

When we used to play in October.

BigRedChief
06-16-2015, 08:09 PM
This culture of old school vs. new school stat guys bites us in the ass again.

I hope this was some low level tech fucking with Ludlow and not directed by management. But, even it was just a low level 20 something doing it all, no one will believe it. Stupid ass decision by whoever thats for sure.

Whoever knew about this or participated in it needs to be fired by the cardinals at the minimum. Even if we lose a top 5 GM.

This shit stains a long storied and proud franchise. Stan the man wore the Birds on Bat for crissakes. The current management are care takers of the high bar. Tremendous lack of respect for the fans. Shame on all involved.

Anyong Bluth
06-16-2015, 08:31 PM
Cardinals Announce Replacement GM with Previous Experience in Counterintelligence

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/16/a13aecdcdb9f50b5dc8222dd55f57be6.jpg

Bowser
06-16-2015, 09:34 PM
LMAO

In Soviet Russia, Cardinals hack YOU

ChiTown
06-16-2015, 09:53 PM
This culture of old school vs. new school stat guys bites us in the ass again.

I hope this was some low level tech ****ing with Ludlow and not directed by management. But, even it was just a low level 20 something doing it all, no one will believe it. Stupid ass decision by whoever thats for sure.

Whoever knew about this or participated in it needs to be fired by the cardinals at the minimum. Even if we lose a top 5 GM.

This shit stains a long storied and proud franchise. Stan the man wore the Birds on Bat for crissakes. The current management are care takers of the high bar. Tremendous lack of respect for the fans. Shame on all involved.

I'm sorry, I really am, but LMAO at this post.

'Hamas' Jenkins
06-16-2015, 10:03 PM
Cardinals Announce Replacement GM with Previous Experience in Counterintelligence

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/16/a13aecdcdb9f50b5dc8222dd55f57be6.jpg

Given that we've basically annexed Kauffman for 20 years, Putin would fit right in.

Discuss Thrower
06-16-2015, 10:03 PM
Anyone else find it hilarious that bambi slunk out of the conference shit talk thread only to post about Mizzou in a thread that literally had nothing to do with them?

Nothing was funny about that. Just incredibly sad.

rtmike
06-16-2015, 10:57 PM
World Champions St. Louis Cardinals*


too soon?

007
06-17-2015, 02:22 AM
Theres no hacking in baseball.

Well, there is but, you know...

Anyong Bluth
06-17-2015, 04:53 AM
Given that we've basically annexed Kauffman for 20 years, Putin would fit right in.

Crimea river...

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/17/1c01bac5e659ef28e5dc52cc6516410c.jpg

BDj23
06-17-2015, 07:23 AM
World Champions St. Louis Cardinals*


too soon?

Why would that happen? Luhnow was a Cardinals employee in 2011

Amnorix
06-17-2015, 07:49 AM
Take it back to the Patriots thread. I don't want to rehash this shit here.
There is going to be plenty of juicy dirt making its way to the news cycle to keep this thread nice and fat on its own.

Not to mention, given the geographic proximity and members of CP that root for said club, the responses should be priceless or dead silence.


Merely for the record, I didn't bring it up. I only responded to statements others made. :p

DJ's left nut
06-17-2015, 11:02 AM
I presume someone at some point here read Bill Plaschke's article? I only ask this because it's quite possibly the worst article written and published regarding any topic at any time. It is, simply stated, the biggest piece of journalistic shit I have ever read.

In steps Michael Hurley of CBS Sports and Craig Calcaterra of Hardball talk to kick the corpulent shithead in the ear...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/06/17/hurley-bill-plaschke-proves-that-stupid-takes-arent-exclusive-to-patriots-bashing/#comments

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/no-the-cardinals-hacking-scandal-does-not-provide-any-basis-to-doubt-their-on-field-performance/

Folks - this is just silly. I understand the desire to get your shots in and openly acknowledge that I would do the same. But man, when you reach the level of idiocy that Plaschke reached here, you should probably just call it a day. I refuse to provide a link as I will not grace him with a pageview (nor should you), but Hurley's pieces has some of the key snippets and it really is remarkable what a bitchy little fuckwit that guy has become.

Stewie
06-17-2015, 11:27 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">St. Louis Cardinals announce new jerseys that they totally came up with on their own. <a href="http://t.co/hiQBIyWn2c">pic.twitter.com/hiQBIyWn2c</a></p>&mdash; Aaron Nemo (@aaronnemo) <a href="https://twitter.com/aaronnemo/status/610903144868921345">June 16, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

wazu
06-17-2015, 11:59 AM
I presume someone at some point here read Bill Plaschke's article? I only ask this because it's quite possibly the worst article written and published regarding any topic at any time. It is, simply stated, the biggest piece of journalistic shit I have ever read.

In steps Michael Hurley of CBS Sports and Craig Calcaterra of Hardball talk to kick the corpulent shithead in the ear...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/06/17/hurley-bill-plaschke-proves-that-stupid-takes-arent-exclusive-to-patriots-bashing/#comments

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/no-the-cardinals-hacking-scandal-does-not-provide-any-basis-to-doubt-their-on-field-performance/

Folks - this is just silly. I understand the desire to get your shots in and openly acknowledge that I would do the same. But man, when you reach the level of idiocy that Plaschke reached here, you should probably just call it a day. I refuse to provide a link as I will not grace him with a pageview (nor should you), but Hurley's pieces has some of the key snippets and it really is remarkable what a bitchy little fuckwit that guy has become.

I just read the article. He's probably off his rocker but who knows? Manfred should at least conduct an inquiry for due diligence purposes.

Swanman
06-17-2015, 12:23 PM
I just read the article. He's probably off his rocker but who knows? Manfred should at least conduct an inquiry for due diligence purposes.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif

BDj23
06-17-2015, 12:23 PM
I presume someone at some point here read Bill Plaschke's article? I only ask this because it's quite possibly the worst article written and published regarding any topic at any time. It is, simply stated, the biggest piece of journalistic shit I have ever read.

In steps Michael Hurley of CBS Sports and Craig Calcaterra of Hardball talk to kick the corpulent shithead in the ear...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/06/17/hurley-bill-plaschke-proves-that-stupid-takes-arent-exclusive-to-patriots-bashing/#comments

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/no-the-cardinals-hacking-scandal-does-not-provide-any-basis-to-doubt-their-on-field-performance/

Folks - this is just silly. I understand the desire to get your shots in and openly acknowledge that I would do the same. But man, when you reach the level of idiocy that Plaschke reached here, you should probably just call it a day. I refuse to provide a link as I will not grace him with a pageview (nor should you), but Hurley's pieces has some of the key snippets and it really is remarkable what a bitchy little ****wit that guy has become.

I read it. It was terrible. Like if Bambi were a journalist.

DJ's left nut
06-17-2015, 12:25 PM
I just read the article. He's probably off his rocker but who knows? Manfred should at least conduct an inquiry for due diligence purposes.

Wow.

You actually read that thing and thought to yourself "y'now, he might be onto something here'?

Welp...I guess that's how Plaschke maintains a reading audience...

wazu
06-17-2015, 12:28 PM
Wow.

You actually read that thing and thought to yourself "y'now, he might be onto something here'?

Welp...I guess that's how Plaschke maintains a reading audience...

Kidding. It's a joke of a column.

Hootie
06-17-2015, 12:50 PM
already bored with this

DJ's left nut
06-17-2015, 12:51 PM
already bored with this

You started bored with this.

But the general public seems inclined to follow you. Unless more information comes out here, there's not nearly as much meat on the bones as many had hoped.

ChiefsCountry
06-17-2015, 01:05 PM
You started bored with this.

But the general public seems inclined to follow you. Unless more information comes out here, there's not nearly as much meat on the bones as many had hoped.

You are a lawyer, what's your opinion on the Slugger hot dog throwing case?
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article24659491.html

DJ's left nut
06-17-2015, 01:14 PM
You are a lawyer, what's your opinion on the Slugger hot dog throwing case?
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article24659491.html

Purely technically, the Mo Supreme Court got that one right. Frankly, the appellate court's rationale in overturning it was strained at best. I think they were mostly trying to work backwards to get the outcome they wanted and perhaps avoid setting some uncomfortable precedent for sporting events.

If the injury showed up 2 days later it would seem to me that causation would be the most difficult element to prove there but that trial will probably devolve into a battle of experts. If the Plaintiff has an MD telling the jury that it's reasonable to expect an injury of that sort to not manifest itself for 48 hours then the jury would likely buy the causation element.

kcfanXIII
06-17-2015, 01:34 PM
This culture of old school vs. new school stat guys bites us in the ass again.

I hope this was some low level tech fucking with Ludlow and not directed by management. But, even it was just a low level 20 something doing it all, no one will believe it. Stupid ass decision by whoever thats for sure.

Whoever knew about this or participated in it needs to be fired by the cardinals at the minimum. Even if we lose a top 5 GM.

Ok, maybe card fans are capable of handling this with out sounding like they love the smell of their own farts.

This shit stains a long storied and proud franchise. Stan the man wore the Birds on Bat for crissakes. The current management are care takers of the high bar. Tremendous lack of respect for the fans. Shame on all involved.

nope.

BigRedChief
06-17-2015, 02:39 PM
Ok, maybe card fans are capable of handling this with out sounding like they love the smell of their own farts.ROFLand also nlm

This is looking like some low level 20 somethings wanted to embarrass their former boss or something like that out of spite/hatred.

I see tech security doors open all the time in my travels in I.T. I don't enter them not because its illegal but just not interested. Seems to me to be voyeurism, some kind of virtual standing outside a house and peeking in through a window. So many young people in the field just can't resist the opportunity.

If it turns out that is what happened, its still the Cardinals brass fault. They allowed this old school vs new school camps to fight against and flourish for years.

BDj23
06-17-2015, 02:46 PM
ROFLand also nlm

This is looking like some low level 20 somethings wanted to embarrass their former boss or something like that out of spite/hatred.

I see tech security doors open all the time in my travels in I.T. I don't enter them not because its illegal but just not interested. Seems to me to be voyeurism, some kind of virtual standing outside a house and peeking in through a window. So many young people in the field just can't resist the opportunity.

If it turns out that is what happened, its still the Cardinals brass fault. They allowed this old school vs new school camps to fight against and flourish for years.

Remember last October when I used your password to MLB.TV?

l33t h4x

kcfanXIII
06-17-2015, 03:01 PM
ROFLand also nlm

This is looking like some low level 20 somethings wanted to embarrass their former boss or something like that out of spite/hatred.

I see tech security doors open all the time in my travels in I.T. I don't enter them not because its illegal but just not interested. Seems to me to be voyeurism, some kind of virtual standing outside a house and peeking in through a window. So many young people in the field just can't resist the opportunity.

If it turns out that is what happened, its still the Cardinals brass fault. They allowed this old school vs new school camps to fight against and flourish for years.

Pretty much how I view it. It is just extra fun that it is happening to the Lou. I will be floored if it comes back to the higher ups, and I really don't know that MLB should punish them at all unless they have absolute proof it goes to the top. JMO.

Chief Roundup
06-18-2015, 01:45 PM
So the Cardinals have basically been cleared of any wrong doing beyond having some fucktard working in low level management.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/sports/baseball/review-clears-st-louis-cardinals-executives.html?_r=0

ST. LOUIS — High-level executives of the St. Louis Cardinals were not involved in the hacking of the Houston Astros’ database, a lawyer whose firm was hired by the team to perform a review said Wednesday.

The Cardinals said they had retained the firm, Dowd Bennett, for the review several months before it was disclosed this week that the F.B.I. was investigating whether the team had hacked into the database, which is used to track players and prospects.

“With what we have done so far, I am 100 percent confident that this does not touch upper management,” the lawyer, Jim Martin, said. He added that he was sure the hacking did not involve people like John Mozeliak, the team’s general manager, or Bill DeWitt Jr., its chairman.

Mr. Martin said he was retained in February.

There has been no indication of how many employees might be under investigation, and Mr. Martin’s comments were the first to suggest that any wrongdoing could be limited to the lower levels of the Cardinals’ organization.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

Hacking Inquiry Finds a Trail Despite Efforts to Cover It UpJUNE 17, 2015
Jeff Luhnow, the Houston Astros’ general manager, with Jon Jay, left, and Daniel Descalso of the Cardinals in 2013.
Cardinals Investigated for Hacking Into Astros’ DatabaseJUNE 16, 2015
General Manager John Mozeliak on Tuesday. It is unknown how much the Cardinals would have benefited from a hacking.
On Baseball: If Cardinals Hacked, Their Gamesmanship Crossed the LineJUNE 16, 2015

“These are serious allegations that don’t reflect who we are as an organization,” Mr. DeWitt said. “We are committed to getting to the bottom of this matter as soon as possible, and if anyone within our organization is determined to be involved in anything inappropriate, they will be held accountable.”

The internal investigation is not finished. Mr. DeWitt said the law firm was also helping the team give information to the federal government.

gblowfish
06-18-2015, 01:51 PM
This was sent to me by one of my St. Louis pals...

BDj23
06-18-2015, 02:19 PM
Dat narrative tho

seaofred
06-18-2015, 02:30 PM
So the Cardinals have basically been cleared of any wrong doing beyond having some ****tard working in low level management.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/sports/baseball/review-clears-st-louis-cardinals-executives.html?_r=0

So a lawyer that is being paid by the Cardinals is saying they are innocent? Never heard that before. :rolleyes:

Anyong Bluth
06-18-2015, 11:58 PM
So a lawyer that is being paid by the Cardinals is saying they are innocent? Never heard that before. :rolleyes:
/oj

Lex Luthor
06-19-2015, 06:24 AM
this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?
Does Dayton Moore run a great front office?

He did hire Trey Hillman.

Of course, the answer could be that the Royals front office may be great now, but they weren't back when Moore was hiring Trey Hillman and acquiring players like Yuniesky Betancourt and Mike Jacobs.

Anyong Bluth
07-02-2015, 03:03 PM
Looks like the Cards can't lay it at the feet of low level interns.

Their Director of Scouting, Correa, just got fired for admitting to hacking into the Astros system - well, not hacking but illegally accessing it with the old password.

Certainly means MLB isn't going to treat the situation like before when it was being blamed on rogue interns not truly "affiliated" with the front office.

DJ's left nut
07-02-2015, 03:59 PM
Looks like the Cards can't lay it at the feet of low level interns.

Their Director of Scouting, Correa, just got fired for admitting to hacking into the Astros system - well, not hacking but illegally accessing it with the old password.

Certainly means MLB isn't going to treat the situation like before when it was being blamed on rogue interns not truly "affiliated" with the front office.

In fairness, Correa wasn't the director of scouting at the time of the breach. Kantrovitz was; Correa replaced him last December. He was likely still a 'statistical analyst' at the time (hard to say without having the timelines pinned down).

But yeah, that's higher up than I'd have liked to it have been.

Like I said, the paper trail's pretty obvious on this one. Nothing to do now but see where it leads. Heads will roll and punishments will be doled out.