A-Rod, HOF or "*"

[GloryDayz]

After seeing that he got his 3000th hit I was dejected. Perhaps that's because I don't like the Yankees, perhaps it's because I don't think any of the hits in his PED years should count (so he's way behind 3000). No matter what, I just think it's a terrible message to send to kids/young players that PEDs will cost you a little something, but when all is said and done the league will act like it never happened.

[wazu]

Completely agree. Was disgusted at the "cutting over" during the Royals game the other night. Nothing he does should be celebrated or even noted.

[lewdog]

*

[Dunit35]

Completely agree. Was disgusted at the "cutting over" during the Royals game the other night. Nothing he does should be celebrated or even noted.

Agreed. Was kind of pissed at FSN was cutting to A ROD at bats.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Just like the Pats...****

[Eleazar]

I think all the steroid cowboys should have to wait for the veterans' committee.

[POND_OF_RED]

Plenty of players out there that have taken PED's and not come close to 3,000. You still have to put in the work. It's not like shooting some steroids into your ass will magically turn you into a HOF'er.

[chiefzilla1501]

Most of the best players in the world are unlikable assholes. It's what makes them great. The main difference is how the media goes out of their way to either make that player look like a hero or an asshole.

I don't like arod. Completely unlikeable. But I also get that the media contributed to a lot of that hate.

[Halfcan]

Plenty of players out there that have taken PED's and not come close to 3,000. You still have to put in the work. It's not like shooting some steroids into your ass will magically turn you into a HOF'er.

I am not sure how someone that is a proven cheater at their profession could be given the highest honor when they retire. Cheating is cheating.

[Hootie]

I think he's a hell of a player and I think it's terribly unfair the great ones from the steroid era get singled out while Nelson Cruz is revered

[Hootie]

He cheated. A lot. He was still one of the 10 best baseball players I've ever seen.

[Hootie]

Most of the best players in the world are unlikable assholes. It's what makes them great. The main difference is how the media goes out of their way to either make that player look like a hero or an asshole.

I don't like arod. Completely unlikeable. But I also get that the media contributed to a lot of that hate.
A-Rod was a nice guy his whole career. He was bizarro Bonds. On top of that, he's said nothing but the right things since returning

[Deberg_1990]

Most of the best players in the world are unlikable assholes. It's what makes them great. The main difference is how the media goes out of their way to either make that player look like a hero or an asshole.

I don't like arod. Completely unlikeable. But I also get that the media contributed to a lot of that hate.

ARod gets treated like a hero. He's an admitted user.


Bonds, McGuire, Clemons, etc get treated like they murdered someone.

[cosmo20002]

Most of the best players in the world are unlikable assholes. It's what makes them great. The main difference is how the media goes out of their way to either make that player look like a hero or an asshole.

I don't like arod. Completely unlikeable. But I also get that the media contributed to a lot of that hate.

"The Media" is at fault for recording stuff people did and said. :facepalm:

[chiefzilla1501]

ARod gets treated like a hero. He's an admitted user.


Bonds, McGuire, Clemons, etc get treated like they murdered someone.

I don't think you have your facts right on that one. Nobody is treating this guy like a hero. They are celebrating a major milestone accomplishment. Just as they did with Barry. NOBODY in the world has come even close to calling him a hero.

[Mr. Laz]

where's the "He's a Yankee ... FUCK HIM!!" option?


If he wasn't in the biggest sports media market he wouldn't have gotten all the kudos anyway.

[Hootie]

Well you spelled Bonds correctly

[chiefzilla1501]

"The Media" is at fault for recording stuff people did and said. :facepalm:

The media picks their targets for people they are going to glorify and people they will treat as the villain. I don't think this is exactly news.

Bonds and ARod were assholes and cheaters. But you know what? So were McGwire and Papi.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

where's the "He's a Yankee ... FUCK HIM!!" option?


If he wasn't in the biggest sports media market he wouldn't have gotten all the kudos anyway.

Jeter was a joke defender, but alas...PINSTRIPES!!! GOLD GLOVES!!! CORPSE START ALL STAR GAME! !

[KC_Connection]

You don't have to like him, but he's one of the best baseball players ever without question. Obvious HOFer (although the baseball HOF is becoming little more than a joke these days).

[Pasta Little Brioni]

If he's a HOFer then all the roid Boys go in.

[chiefzilla1501]

You don't have to like him, but he's one of the best baseball players ever without question. Obvious HOFer.

I think the worst part of this is, Bonds arguably would have been in the running for GOAT. ARod wouldn't be that far behind. Even if they didn't touch steroids. Pretty amazing how much they threw away for something they didn't even need.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Brady fucking Anderson hit 50 plus home runs on the juice...let that sink in for a bit.

[chiefzilla1501]

Brady ****ing Anderson hit 50 plus home runs on the juice...let that sink in for a bit.

I think people exaggerate the effects of steroids and PEDs. It helped. But there are other reasons for the home run era:
-Juiced ball
-Expansion era pitching
-Reduced strike zone

Steroids improves bat speed by a fraction. But most power comes from your legs and hip rotation, two things that aren't necessarily helped as much by roids. The biggest effect was probably keeping players hitting past their prime.

[KC_Connection]

I think the worst part of this is, Bonds arguably would have been in the running for GOAT. ARod wouldn't be that far behind. Even if they didn't touch steroids. Pretty amazing how much they threw away for something they didn't even need.
An extremely competitive elite athlete generally doesn't get in that position by not doing anything and everything they possibly can to improve their performance. And it all really isn't that surprising when you consider guys like Bonds and ARod have/had a deep desire to be the absolute best at what they did. Any edge was worth it to get closer to that goal.

[Deberg_1990]

If he's a HOFer then all the roid Boys go in.

Agreed

What I don't get is why they won't let these players in the Hall, but yet they still keep and champion their records and stats?

[loochy]

It's the hall of FAME, not the hall of fair play or the hall of people that act the way we want them to. The man was an incredible player and he left his mark on the game, be it good or bad. I say put him in.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

I think people exaggerate the effects of steroids and PEDs. It helped. But there are other reasons for the home run era:
-Juiced ball
-Expansion era pitching
-Reduced strike zone

Steroids improves bat speed by a fraction. But most power comes from your legs and hip rotation, two things that aren't necessarily helped as much by roids. The biggest effect was probably keeping players hitting past their prime.

Riiiight it baaaarely helped at all ROFL

[KC_Connection]

I think people exaggerate the effects of steroids and PEDs. It helped. But there are other reasons for the home run era:
-Juiced ball
-Expansion era pitching
-Reduced strike zone

Steroids improves bat speed by a fraction. But most power comes from your legs and hip rotation, two things that aren't necessarily helped as much by roids. The biggest effect was probably keeping players hitting past their prime.
Absolutely...there were several other factors that were probably more directly responsible for the increase in offense.

I'm sure there is less PED use than there was 15 years ago, but I'm also sure it's still prevalent in baseball (it's telling that just about all of the guys caught in Biogenesis never failed a MLB drug test).

[Pasta Little Brioni]

It's the hall of FAME, not the hall of fair play or the hall of people that act the way we want them to. The man was an incredible player and he left his mark on the game, be it good or bad. I say put him in.

Agreed. Those were some fun seasons and the league had no trouble profiting off of it.

[cosmo20002]

I think the worst part of this is, Bonds arguably would have been in the running for GOAT. ARod wouldn't be that far behind. Even if they didn't touch steroids. Pretty amazing how much they threw away for something they didn't even need.

This is often repeated and completely unsupported. There's no way of knowing what they "didn't need." Yes, those two were great before the use was suspected to start. But Bonds in particular started having some of the greatest seasons of all time at a time when even great players start to go downhill. Did they need it to be considered "great" players with 400-500 HRs? Probably not. To be GOAT-contenders with 700+HRs? Impossible to know.

[cosmo20002]

I think people exaggerate the effects of steroids and PEDs. It helped. But there are other reasons for the home run era:
-Juiced ball
-Expansion era pitching
-Reduced strike zone

Steroids improves bat speed by a fraction. But most power comes from your legs and hip rotation, two things that aren't necessarily helped as much by roids. The biggest effect was probably keeping players hitting past their prime.

"Juiced ball" :facepalm:
"A fraction of a second" is huge is baseball, by the way. And you are missing a big impact of steroids and PEDs--helping the body recover from injury and allowing greater, longer, more effective workouts.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

You had guys with the mind and experience of a vet in the body of Greek gods. Mainly oft injured guys on the downside of their careers all "magically" in ridiculous shape and health turning their careers around at the same time.

[KC_Connection]

"Juiced ball" :facepalm:

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/changing-baseball.shtml

[chiefzilla1501]

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/changing-baseball.shtml

Good post. Also:
http://deadspin.com/5937432/was-mlbs-juiced-era-actually-a-juiced-ball-era

Cosmo doesn't seem to realize that there have been multiple unexplained home run and dead ball eras throughout baseball history. Even outside the so-called steroids era. The ball has a big effect.

[chiefzilla1501]

"Juiced ball" :facepalm:
"A fraction of a second" is huge is baseball, by the way. And you are missing a big impact of steroids and PEDs--helping the body recover from injury and allowing greater, longer, more effective workouts.

I didn't discount that. I said it allowed players play past their prime.

And again, the greatest gains you're talking about is upper body strength. Good hitting is more about hip rotation and leg muscles. Upper body strength somewhat helps hip rotation by getting the bat around slightly faster. It helped. But a lot of exaggeration around how much it helped. I'd say shitty pitching, juiced ball, hitters friendly parks, and reduced strikes zones had a lot more to do with the home run surge.

[chiefzilla1501]

This is often repeated and completely unsupported. There's no way of knowing what they "didn't need." Yes, those two were great before the use was suspected to start. But Bonds in particular started having some of the greatest seasons of all time at a time when even great players start to go downhill. Did they need it to be considered "great" players with 400-500 HRs? Probably not. To be GOAT-contenders with 700+HRs? Impossible to know.

Why do you have to hit 700+ HRs to be considered GOAT? The Babe is widely considered GOAT. Granted, a lot of that was because he was an excellent pitcher too. But he was a solid but unspectacular fielder. Not slow, but not fast either.

Bonds was an elite fielder, base runner, home run hitter, and pure hitter (hits and walks). Think the better question is if Bonds could beat Mays... and yes, I think he could have without the roids.

[Hootie]

I have a really hard time saying a guy who played in 1920 is the greatest ever ... I'd like to see Babe Ruth face off against Wade Davis and see what happens

[cosmo20002]

I have a really hard time saying a guy who played in 1920 is the greatest ever ... I'd like to see Babe Ruth face off against Wade Davis and see what happens

wow, really dumb

[Hootie]

really?

I'd like to see Bob Cousy play in today's NBA.

I'd like to see what kind of QB Joe Namath is in today's game.

I'm sorry, I have a REALLY tough time saying a guy who played in a league THAT DIDN'T ALLOW BLACKS is the greatest ever.

[Hootie]

The greatest ever, IMO, was Barry Bonds. Dickhead or not.

[chiefzilla1501]

I have a really hard time saying a guy who played in 1920 is the greatest ever ... I'd like to see Babe Ruth face off against Wade Davis and see what happens

The Babe is often mentioned as GOAT. But it's probably gotta be Mays, if we're taking roids out of the equation. Thing about Babe is he played before integration, so he wasn't playing against all the best athletes.

[Deberg_1990]

Wow, Zack Hample caught A-Rods 300th hit last night. How does this guy know where to be??


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/notorious-ball-hawk-zack-hample-catches-a-rod-s-3-000th-hit-001101863.html

Here's an interesting twist to Alex Rodriguez's 3,000th hit that no one could have anticipated.

Well, no one aside from the man who actually caught it.

That would be notorious baseball ballhawk Zack Hample, who over the course of his "career" has now snagged over 8,000 baseballs at major league games.

Hample has even written three books about his area of expertise, including one titled "How to Snag Major League Baseballs: More Than 100 Tested Tips That Really Work," which was published back in 1999.

He's been on the receiving end of several notable milestones over the years, including Mike Trout’s first major league home run on July 24, 2011 at Camden Yards. He also caught Barry Bonds' 724th career home run at Petco Park in 2006, and over the years has caught several balls at the Home Run Derby in numerous locations.

Now he adds Alex Rodriguez's 3,000th hit, which should prove to be the most valuable of them all.

Of course, no one knows that better than Hample, and before all's said and done we're guessing A-Rod will wish he'd hit it any place other than directly into Hample's glove.

@Yankeefan98 I'll give him the finger and a dummy ball. That man deserves favors from no one, least of all a fan.
— Zack Hample (@zack_hample) June 19, 2015
A home run to left field or even a broken bat single on the infield would have been preferable to dealing with Hample.

[Hootie]

again ... are we really going to consider Mays the GOAT when he played in an era of inferior players?

And how old are we? You've seen enough Mays to be able to consider him your GOAT?

[Pasta Little Brioni]

wow, really dumb

Well he's right. The level of competition was a flat out joke.

[Hootie]

I don't like these debates. I'm 30. This is why I argue Brady/Manning and not Montana. I never saw Montana in his prime so who am I to rank him with what I've seen?

[Hootie]

and I'm pretty sure no one ever saw Babe or Mays ... but let's be rational, here. The level of competition in the 90's - today is a lot higher than it was back in the days of no blacks allowed

[cosmo20002]

really?

I'd like to see Bob Cousy play in today's NBA.

I'd like to see what kind of QB Joe Namath is in today's game.

I'm sorry, I have a REALLY tough time saying a guy who played in a league THAT DIDN'T ALLOW BLACKS is the greatest ever.

No blacks, but only 16 teams and he DOMINATED in a way that no one ever has.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Deberg starting more De berg threads in the middle of a thread again I see

[C3HIEF3S]

"*" all the way

[Hootie]

No blacks, but only 16 teams and he DOMINATED in a way that no one ever has.

and you were there to witness it

[penguinz]

I didn't discount that. I said it allowed players play past their prime.

And again, the greatest gains you're talking about is upper body strength. Good hitting is more about hip rotation and leg muscles. Upper body strength somewhat helps hip rotation by getting the bat around slightly faster. It helped. But a lot of exaggeration around how much it helped. I'd say shitty pitching, juiced ball, hitters friendly parks, and reduced strikes zones had a lot more to do with the home run surge.
You are correct. Steroids only help above the waste. The largest muscle group in the body do not benefit at all from juice.

[chiefzilla1501]

again ... are we really going to consider Mays the GOAT when he played in an era of inferior players?

And how old are we? You've seen enough Mays to be able to consider him your GOAT?

I haven't seen him play. But that shouldn't stop any of us from speculating.

Mays has a much better argument for GOAT than Ruth. He played in a competitive era. And how much has pitching really changed from then to now? It's not like basketball where weight training and conditioning completely changed the athletic playing field.

If we're going to talk about era vs. era, I've already mentioned that the reduced strike zone, expansion era pitching, and hitters friendly parks were a huge advantage for Bonds. I might even throw in that the Red Sox and Yankees were spending an insanely disproportionate amount of money (and they are in the AL). The expansion era pitching especially. If we're going to say Mays played against inferior pitching, we have to point out that NL pitching in the expansion era was god awful. Keep in mind that adding the Marlins and the Rookies forced teams to move pitchers off their rotations, and there weren't enough good pitchers to spread around. So many days, the bottom of most rotations were embarrassingly bad.

[BWillie]

HOF with a *

[Hootie]

It's insane to keep Sosa / McGwire / Clemens / AROD / Palmeiro out of the HOF IMO

[lewdog]

You are correct. Steroids only help above the waste. The largest muscle group in the body do not benefit at all from juice.

That and HGH to increase recovery ability and shorten injury times with quicker strength bounce back. That's the biggest benefit to the grind of a full baseball season.

[BWillie]

and I'm pretty sure no one ever saw Babe or Mays ... but let's be rational, here. The level of competition in the 90's - today is a lot higher than it was back in the days of no blacks allowed

Yep. And think about it, the baseball playing population is much much greater than it was back then. Both because the population of the earth continues to climb and the game is now huge internationally. The likelihood that the top players in the 20s would be top players today is very low.

[Rams Fan]

It's insane to keep Sosa / McGwire / Clemens / AROD / Palmeiro out of the HOF IMO

It's insane to keep one of the best hitters(Bonds) and one of the best pitchers(Clemens) out of the HOF due to using PEDs that were common in the era they played in.

[lewdog]

Just make it legal and we'll never have to wonder if it's a level playing field.

[wazu]

Just make it legal and we'll never have to wonder if it's a level playing field.

Yeah, love the thought of my sons having to take roids if they want to play sports.

[chiefzilla1501]

It's insane to keep one of the best hitters(Bonds) and one of the best pitchers(Clemens) out of the HOF due to using PEDs that were common in the era they played in.

Palmeiro and Clemens are part of a different argument. I think what makes these choices difficult for me is that these guys are not HOF'ers if they retire at 35. Not even close. They are getting in because of a superhuman lift in their performance post 35 which, to me, actually is a byproduct of PEDs.

I'd say yes to Clemens. No to Palmeiro. He would have been on the bubble as is, let alone knowing he took PEDs.

[Pepe Silvia]

Brady ****ing Anderson hit 50 plus home runs on the juice...let that sink in for a bit.

And then he followed that up with 18 HR's the following season. Obvious as ****. ROFL

[Hootie]

Palmeiro wasn't a HOF'er at 35?

Bonds was a HOF'er at 22.

[chiefzilla1501]

And then he followed that up with 18 HR's the following season. Obvious as ****. ROFL

I don't understand anyone who'd use Brady Anderson as a steroids example.

So people think he took for one year, then stopped? Or that his muscle gains from that year suddenly disappeared? That year, home runs ACROSS THE LEAGUE inexplicably spiked. Not even a little bit. A lot.

Unless the claim is that every single hitter in baseball was juicing in 1996, then stopped... the better explanation is that it was a mix between a fluke season (see Roger Maris) and a juiced ball.

[Eleazar]

Palmeiro wasn't a HOF'er at 35?

Bonds was a HOF'er at 22.

ROFL

[chiefzilla1501]

Palmeiro wasn't a HOF'er at 35?

Bonds was a HOF'er at 22.

When you play DH much of your career (1B the rest), you get held to a much different standard. You better be an elite hitter. Hitting 400 HRs at the age of 35 ain't cutting it. Palmeiro only gets put in the conversation because he had 3,000+ hits and 500+ HRs. If not for superhuman seasons after the age of 35, those aren't happening.

Palmeiro wasn't considered even close to the best player, let alone best hitter of his time. He'd get in the HOF because of #'s but barely. And "barely" in an era of juiced balls and admitted steroids use is just enough to say that ain't cutting it.

[Hootie]

from 1990 to 2007 Bonds' lowest .OPS was .925 and he had an .OPS over 1.000 16 seasons in a row

[Hootie]

ok fine

I give no fucks about Palmeiro, anyways

[jd1020]

He, along with Bonds, will likely never enter into the HoF because of their steroid use, which sucks because neither player needed them.

[Deberg_1990]

It's insane to keep one of the best hitters(Bonds) and one of the best pitchers(Clemens) out of the HOF due to using PEDs that were common in the era they played in.

It's insane to keep Pete Rose out too

[chiefzilla1501]

ok fine

I give no ****s about Palmeiro, anyways

I am with you, however, on Sosa, Bonds (obvious), McGwire, ARod, and Clemens though. Even though I think Clemens benefited from a late peak. McGwire was the best power hitter of that era. Bonds, Sosa, and ARod were not only elite hitters, they were also outstanding fielders. They should all be shoo-ins. They're getting into the HOF without steroids too, assuming they have a lasting career.

[Deberg_1990]

He, along with Bonds, will likely never enter into the HoF because of their steroid use, which sucks because neither player needed them.

If they didn't 'need' them then why did they take them?

[chiefzilla1501]

It's insane to keep Pete Rose out too

Don't agree with that. Pete Rose, like Joe Jackson, were rightfully banned from baseball. Not suspended. Banned. And if you read past the BS cover stories, both bans are more than legit.

[jd1020]

If they didn't 'need' them then why did they take them?

Ask them?

[jd1020]

Don't agree with that. Pete Rose, like Joe Jackson, were rightfully banned from baseball. Not suspended. Banned. And if you read past the BS cover stories, both bans are more than legit.

Joe Jackson was never indicted.

[Hootie]

If they didn't 'need' them then why did they take them?

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-athletes/richest-baseball/alex-rodriguez-net-worth/

[chiefzilla1501]

Joe Jackson was never indicted.

Joe Jackson admitted to what he had done. Therefore, banned.

And the numbers back it up. Outstanding world series numbers. Mysteriously below average play in games that were meant to be thrown.

[jd1020]

Joe Jackson admitted to what he had done. Therefore, banned.

And the numbers back it up. Outstanding world series numbers. Mysteriously below average play in games that were meant to be thrown.

Undisputed best player in the series = "mysteriously below average play"

[chiefzilla1501]

Undisputed best player in the series = "mysteriously below average play"

Undisputed?

Everyone knows exactly what games the Black Sox were trying to throw. There were 5 of them. He hit .250 with 0 RBIs in those games (until he went 2-2 in the final game when they were getting blown out). He was an elite fielder who somehow allowed 9 triples in those losses.

Shoeless Joe Jackson had a monster series... in the games they were supposed to win. He hit way over .500. But shouldn't we focus on the games they were trying to lose? IN much the same way, people obsess over Pete rose betting for his team to win... they're NOT focusing on games he didn't bet on, which is what makes Rose's betting dirtier than people realize.

[jd1020]

Jackson played better in that series that he did in his previous one and his HR came in a game that was "suppose to be thrown."

Your and idiot.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

I don't understand anyone who'd use Brady Anderson as a steroids example.

So people think he took for one year, then stopped? Or that his muscle gains from that year suddenly disappeared? That year, home runs ACROSS THE LEAGUE inexplicably spiked. Not even a little bit. A lot.

Unless the claim is that every single hitter in baseball was juicing in 1996, then stopped... the better explanation is that it was a mix between a fluke season (see Roger Maris) and a juiced ball.

:spock:

[chiefzilla1501]

:spock:

If Brady Anderson was the classic case of steroid use, then how come he only had one season like this?

How do you explain Roger Maris spiking to 61 HRs out of nowhere? Or Chris Davis hitting 53 HRs in the post-steroid era? These guys were otherwise 30 HR hitters.

How do you explain that not just Brady Anderson, but every single hitter in 1996 were hitting out of their minds that year? If anything, it's a bigger argument for the juiced ball, not a juiced player.

Juiced ball in 1996. Fluke season. That seems a more likely scenario than believing he was eating spinach and somehow turning into Popeye overnight. Anderson hit a shitload of extra base hits. But okay, I guess it's easy for you to just point at the spike in HRs and say "steroids"

[Pasta Little Brioni]

The dude yoked up that year. It was obvious as fuck. Don't go full zilla. Of course the live ball helped a bit too. Never denied that. Bret Boone also got jacked.

[oldman]

He gets in AFTER Pete Rose.

[chiefzilla1501]

The dude yoked up that year. It was obvious as ****. Don't go full zilla. Of course the live ball helped a bit too. Never denied that. Bret Boone also got jacked.

I'm sure he was on something. I'm also sure he was on something much of his career like everybody else. It doesn't explain why he only did it once

Brett Boone is a clear example. Dude ballooned in weight and suddenly became a power hitter over several seasons.

Again... Brady Anderson is not the only hitter in history to have an uncommonly good year. Why couldn't it be a fluke? How many times do you think Chris Davis and Roger Maris could hit over 50?

[ChiliConCarnage]

I have a hard time because how do you separate the likely small amount of people caught vs letting in all of the others. I think it's unfair to judge the people who roided when it wasn't against the rules.

Rodriguez is pretty much unlikable though. He got caught in the initial tests, lied, then got caught again. That's pretty fucking deliberate. I don't think I could vote for him or a guy like Braun.

Also, I'm amazed people throw Nelson Cruz all star votes. The guy has 7 doubles and 18 HRs. I don't believe he is legit at all

[cosmo20002]

"Juiced ball" is nonsense. Somebody linked a study from Rhode Island. Compare a ball from the early 60s 30 years later, stored in unknown conditions...:facepalm: The deadspin article was completely inconclusive, noting that some balls "outperformed" while others "underperformed."

[cosmo20002]

He gets in AFTER Pete Rose.

One has nothing to do with the other.

[BWillie]

I don't understand why people hold gambling or throwing games against players, at least in terms of getting into the HOF. It is unethical, and said player who was throwing games should be banned for sometime but how does that effect if they get into the HOF?

In Joe Jackson's case, it HURT his numbers by throwing games. So why should it matter for his hall of fame candidacy? He was not cheating numbers, at least not in a positive direction.

In the case of Pete Rose, as I understand it, Pete Rose bet ON HIS TEAM. If this is really the case, I don't care at all. He is being a confident ball player, he played 100% all the time anyway, I don't see how this is a big deal. I know people like to think of things as pure, but throwing a game is 1 million times worse than betting on your team, that you play on, to win.

[GloucesterChief]

Yep. And think about it, the baseball playing population is much much greater than it was back then. Both because the population of the earth continues to climb and the game is now huge internationally. The likelihood that the top players in the 20s would be top players today is very low.

Those players in the 20s never really trained though, most couldn't as pay for baseball players was really low. Ruth was a naturally strong guy who played probably a fair number of his games hungover. He also played in an era when the spitball and junkball was common.

Give some of those guys in the 20 and 30s modern training and I am sure they would stack up.

[cosmo20002]

I don't understand why people hold gambling or throwing games against players, at least in terms of getting into the HOF. It is unethical, and said player who was throwing games should be banned for sometime but how does that effect if they get into the HOF?

In Joe Jackson's case, it HURT his numbers by throwing games. So why should it matter for his hall of fame candidacy? He was not cheating numbers, at least not in a positive direction.

In the case of Pete Rose, as I understand it, Pete Rose bet ON HIS TEAM. If this is really the case, I don't care at all. He is being a confident ball player, he played 100% all the time anyway, I don't see how this is a big deal. I know people like to think of things as pure, but throwing a game is 1 million times worse than betting on your team, that you play on, to win.

OK, a few things...
Basically, you are being judged as a player...and that usually comes down to how many HRs you hit, etc. But if you do something as despicable as throwing a game, that is part of your resume as a player and I think should be considered when there is a decision about whether to honor you.

With Rose, it is just improper to bet on the team as the manager. What message does it send to his bookie when he didn't bet? It puts him in all kinds of uncompromising positions and creates an appearance of impropriety.

On a side note, the commissioner is not keeping Rose from the Hall of Fame, at least not directly. The HOF is not operated by MLB. He is on MLB's banned list. The HOF has chosen not to consider anyone that is on MLB's banned list, but that is their decision.

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't understand why people hold gambling or throwing games against players, at least in terms of getting into the HOF. It is unethical, and said player who was throwing games should be banned for sometime but how does that effect if they get into the HOF?

In Joe Jackson's case, it HURT his numbers by throwing games. So why should it matter for his hall of fame candidacy? He was not cheating numbers, at least not in a positive direction.

In the case of Pete Rose, as I understand it, Pete Rose bet ON HIS TEAM. If this is really the case, I don't care at all. He is being a confident ball player, he played 100% all the time anyway, I don't see how this is a big deal. I know people like to think of things as pure, but throwing a game is 1 million times worse than betting on your team, that you play on, to win.

The pete rose ban makes more sense when you look at games he didn't bet on.

[BWillie]

Those players in the 20s never really trained though, most couldn't as pay for baseball players was really low. Ruth was a naturally strong guy who played probably a fair number of his games hungover. He also played in an era when the spitball and junkball was common.

Give some of those guys in the 20 and 30s modern training and I am sure they would stack up.

They also played against guys who's main job was say, a butcher. I think what you just stated seems to argue otherwise, actually.

[cosmo20002]

They also played against guys who's main job was say, a butcher. I think what you just stated seems to argue otherwise, actually.

wut
Some may have had off-season jobs, but they still played April-October. Spring training, too.

[GloucesterChief]

wut
Some may have had off-season jobs, but they still played April-October. Spring training, too.

The superstars played all year round by barnstorming in the south, Mexico, and Caribbean during the winter months.

[chiefzilla1501]

"Juiced ball" is nonsense. Somebody linked a study from Rhode Island. Compare a ball from the early 60s 30 years later, stored in unknown conditions...:facepalm: The deadspin article was completely inconclusive, noting that some balls "outperformed" while others "underperformed."

It's not nonsense. Can baseballs be juiced? Yes. Were they? Who knows. What I do know is that inside and outside of the steroid era, there are unexplained power surges. And you can't just credit that to players getting even juicier.

I'm not naive to think steroids didn't play a part in more home runs. But people on here want to believe it can double a guy like Brady Anderson's home run production. That's just silly. Bad expansion era pitching + hitter friendly ball parks were a huge part of it. Smaller strike zone + inability to throw inside. And yes, because baseballs can be juiced it's more than fair to ask if either juiced baseballs or doctored bats may have contributed to it. You just never know. To me, it's better to at least leave the possibility open to it vs. just assuming that a guy can single-handedly hit twice as many home runs just by lifting weights.

[C3HIEF3S]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A-Rod 3,000 hit milestone duly noted on NYC tabloids this morning <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yankees?src=hash">#Yankees</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLB?src=hash">#MLB</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ARod?src=hash">#ARod</a> <a href="http://t.co/8eyEs37nps">pic.twitter.com/8eyEs37nps</a></p>&mdash; John Kucko (@john_kucko) <a href="https://twitter.com/john_kucko/status/612206276777504769">June 20, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I love the Mr. 3,*** one

[GloryDayz]

<iframe title="Twitter Tweet" style="border: medium none; max-width: 100%; min-width: 220px; margin: 10px 0px; padding: 0px; display: block; position: static; visibility: visible; width: 500px;" allowfullscreen="" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="twitter-widget-0" frameborder="0" height="471"></iframe>
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I love the Mr. 3,*** one

This...
<iframe style="display: none;" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[RobBlake]

a-roid is def a more fitting title

[GloryDayz]

The worst part is he will get in, and Yankee fans will be like New England fans and be able to celebrate things enabled through cheating.

The integrity of the game is diluted further, but as long as there's profit, nobody in the front office cares.

I hope other players just learned a lesson of process, and they know exactly what I mean.

[cosmo20002]

It's not nonsense. Can baseballs be juiced? Yes. Were they? Who knows. What I do know is that inside and outside of the steroid era, there are unexplained power surges. And you can't just credit that to players getting even juicier.

I'm not naive to think steroids didn't play a part in more home runs. But people on here want to believe it can double a guy like Brady Anderson's home run production. That's just silly. Bad expansion era pitching + hitter friendly ball parks were a huge part of it. Smaller strike zone + inability to throw inside. And yes, because baseballs can be juiced it's more than fair to ask if either juiced baseballs or doctored bats may have contributed to it. You just never know. To me, it's better to at least leave the possibility open to it vs. just assuming that a guy can single-handedly hit twice as many home runs just by lifting weights.

Oh...you were just saying that they COULD BE. Because it pretty much sounded like you said they were--especially when you include it with definite factors like steroid use, ballpark size, and expansion pitching, all of which are easily seen and/or documented. The fact that no one has ever shown reasonable evidence of a new ball indicates that there was no new ball and that people should stop mentioning it as if there was.

[Why Not?]

Could give a shit less if he cheated or not. We know a lot more of these guys(pro athletes)cheat or have cheated, we just don't necessarily know about it. At this point the HOF issue with baseball players is so clouded I think it has diminished the HOF. So who cares? Put him in and anyone else you want, I guess

[Why Not?]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A-Rod 3,000 hit milestone duly noted on NYC tabloids this morning <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yankees?src=hash">#Yankees</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLB?src=hash">#MLB</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ARod?src=hash">#ARod</a> <a href="http://t.co/8eyEs37nps">pic.twitter.com/8eyEs37nps</a></p>&mdash; John Kucko (@john_kucko) <a href="https://twitter.com/john_kucko/status/612206276777504769">June 20, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I love the Mr. 3,*** one

Lol. God, they hate him.

[GloryDayz]

Lol. God, they hate him.

Well don't quote me on this, but I have a little respect for those particular NYC people...

[chiefzilla1501]

Oh...you were just saying that they COULD BE. Because it pretty much sounded like you said they were--especially when you include it with definite factors like steroid use, ballpark size, and expansion pitching, all of which are easily seen and/or documented. The fact that no one has ever shown reasonable evidence of a new ball indicates that there was no new ball and that people should stop mentioning it as if there was.

That hasn't stopped people from speculating that steroids was a major contributor to home run gains. I don't see you calling them out. PEDs have been around for a while. Despite that, there are still curious eras where home run totals either liven or deaden. Not by a little. By a pretty significant amount.

The idea that some of that wasn't influenced by the ball especially at a time when the MLB was desperate for ratings isn't farfetched whatsoever.

[Hootie]

I'd like to see some of the numbers from the guys back in the day if they took away their "greenies"

[jd1020]

Lol. God, they hate him.

Everyone hates him because he questioned people's intelligence by continuing to claim his innocence when his guilt was spread out on a silver platter for everyone to see. Same shit for Bonds. Same shit for Braun.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Well you spelled Bonds correctly

LOL

[loochy]

I can't wait until someone just comes out and embraces the steroid use. "Yes, I used them and they are badass. I'd keep using them if they were legal or if I wouldn't get caught."

[GloryDayz]

I can't wait until someone just comes out and embraces the steroid use. "Yes, I used them and they are badass. I'd keep using them if they were legal or if I wouldn't get caught."
I think that's just short of what some players will do after this. If he goes in the HOF with no sort of asterisk, why would a player not try? And perhaps not to get to 3000,but maybe to possibly extend his paychecks for a few more years. The latter is actually a very plausible scenario. What's the downside Rick in that. Nothing (unless you have some morality). So high school and college players aren't the MLB's problem, but I think every kid in high school and college have a better idea of what the playing field looks like.

[jd1020]

I think that's just short of what some players will do after this. If he goes in the HOF with no sort of asterisk, why would a player not try? And perhaps not to get to 3000,but maybe to possibly extend his paychecks for a few more years. The latter is actually a very plausible scenario. What's the downside Rick in that. Nothing (unless you have some morality). So high school and college players aren't the MLB's problem, but I think every kid in high school and college have a better idea of what the playing field looks like.

Just as long as MLB makes it easier to void contracts based on performance that was under PED's when they get caught.

[Valiant]

He wont get in. They set the precedent with the others and Palmeiro falling off the Ballet was the closest to ARod stat wise.. It will be a all or nothing, they will keep them out or they will go back and let them all in..

[GloryDayz]

He wont get in. They set the precedent with the others and Palmeiro falling off the Ballet was the closest to ARod stat wise.. It will be a all or nothing, they will keep them out or they will go back and let them all in..

We'll see. 3,000 was an automatic for HOF. But if that's true, good.

[jd1020]

We'll see. 3,000 was an automatic for HOF. But if that's true, good.

You'll know long before Alex is even eligible. Bonds and Clemens still remain on the outside looking in.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

That hasn't stopped people from speculating that steroids was a major contributor to home run gains. I don't see you calling them out. PEDs have been around for a while. Despite that, there are still curious eras where home run totals either liven or deaden. Not by a little. By a pretty significant amount.

The idea that some of that wasn't influenced by the ball especially at a time when the MLB was desperate for ratings isn't farfetched whatsoever.

They were a significant contributer. I don't see how it's even debatable.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

I can't wait until someone just comes out and embraces the steroid use. "Yes, I used them and they are badass. I'd keep using them if they were legal or if I wouldn't get caught."

They don't help anyway/zilla

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

More dumb sportz takes from middle America. Between this and Russell Wilson thread.... holy shit

[GloryDayz]

More dumb sportz takes from middle America. Between this and Russell Wilson thread.... holy shit:spock::spock:

[chiefzilla1501]

They were a significant contributer. I don't see how it's even debatable.


Sorry, but I don't think steroids happened overnight in the early 90's. I think players were juicing way before that time. So if players were always juicing, it doesn't for me explain why all of a sudden players in the early 90's started hitting out of their mind. Not by a little. Overnight HRs spiked... "coincidentally" after baseball hit an all-time popularity low. Of course PEDs increase HRs. But the impact on the steroid era are unbelievably exaggerated.

I've already mentioned expansion era, smaller strike zones, and new stadiums as a huge contributor to HR increases. Given the coincidental timing of the HR surge, fair to ask if a lively ball or improved bat may have contributed to it too.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Some of those guys basically became incredible hulk over an off season. Not coincidentally they started to bash homers.

[chiefzilla1501]

Some of those guys basically became incredible hulk over an off season. Not coincidentally they started to bash homers.

Did they have some kind of conference call where they all decided to use steroids at the same exact time? Guys were becoming the Incredible Hulk way before the early 90's.

Not coincidentally, the expansion era began in 1993. Strike occurred in 1994 and popularity bottoms out (coincidence? Hm....) Strike zone changes in 1996. Jacob's Field opens in 1994 which ushers in a massive era of new stadium constructions, many of which are ridiculously hitter friendly (including Coors Field).

That's a lot of hitter friendly shit happening right around 1993-94, when the home run era began to boom. That is a better explanation for me than the idea that a bunch of steroid users all decided to start using steroids... at the same exact time.

[loochy]

Did they have some kind of conference call where they all decided to use steroids at the same exact time? Guys were becoming the Incredible Hulk way before the early 90's.

Not coincidentally, the expansion era began in 1993. Strike occurred in 1994 and popularity bottoms out (coincidence? Hm....) Strike zone changes in 1996. Jacob's Field opens in 1994 which ushers in a massive era of new stadium constructions, many of which are ridiculously hitter friendly (including Coors Field).

That's a lot of hitter friendly shit happening right around 1993-94, when the home run era began to boom. That is a better explanation for me than the idea that a bunch of steroid users all decided to start using steroids... at the same exact time.

Roidcon 1993:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/pokey.jpg
http://costumepop.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/oxycotin-costume.jpg?d7aed3

[Bob Dole]

He wont get in.

But he's a Yankee!

[loochy]

But he's a Yankee!

VOTES ARE INVALID BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE THE RESULTS

THROW OUT A TON OF VOTES THAT WE DON'T LIKE

RE-VOTE UNTIL ALL YANKEES GET IN

/MLB

[TEX]

Nope. Dude was using his whole life. IMO, anyone who juiced should not be enshrined into the HOF. I don't care IF everyone was doing it. Just my opinion though.

[ILChief]

If you put him in, then bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, and palmero all have to get in too

[Hootie]

it's not even a debate

they aren't going to put him in

he won't get more than 20% of the vote

[GloryDayz]

it's not even a debate

they aren't going to put him in

he won't get more than 20% of the vote

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

I hope you're right brother...

[Hootie]

Oh I'm 100% right

none of these guys are getting in any time soon

I think they all should. I think McGwire / Bonds / Sosa / AROD / Clemens are all 1st ballot ... but until these old fuckers voting die, they don't have a shot in the world

[chiefzilla1501]

If you put him in, then bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, and palmero all have to get in too

All of these guys + ARod should get in. If I'm going to ding anybody it's Clemens and Palmeiro... I'm less convinced these guys are HOFers without PEDs.

[Oxford]

Completely agree. Was disgusted at the "cutting over" during the Royals game the other night. Nothing he does should be celebrated or even noted.

Correct! :thumb::thumb:

[GloryDayz]

So, I'm a nice guy, so instead of an asterisk, this should be his headstone..

http://www.mikeslaseretching.com/images/m1_gray_granite_tombstone_LARGE.jpg