Other Sports Max Scherzer tosses no hitter against my Pirates [Archive]

duncan_idaho

06-20-2015, 04:47 PM

Tabata needs to get earholed tomorrow.

Yeah, that was pretty shitty. It's one thing if the pitch runs way in and he can't get out of the way. But to lean down like that and take it in the elbow pad, not even a real part of the body?

Wish the umpire had enforced the "didn't attempt to get out of the pitch rule" on that one. And when he sees the highlights after the game, I suspect he will, too.

It's just too bad Max Scherzer isn't as good a player as elite setup man Sam Freeman... o:-)

Al Bundy

06-20-2015, 04:48 PM

At 6-0, yeah he needs to get plunked in the hip or ass tomorrow. If it had been 1-0, that would have been ok.

scho63

06-20-2015, 04:49 PM

I'm a Pirates fan and think what Tabata did was sleazy

kcxiv

06-20-2015, 04:51 PM

As shitty as it is, as a batter you do what you can for him to **** that up! I cant blame dude for that. **** being the final out in a perfect game. He just did a little Don Baylor!

duncan_idaho

06-20-2015, 04:55 PM

As shitty as it is, as a batter you do what you can for him to **** that up! I cant blame dude for that. **** being the final out in a perfect game. He just did a little Don Baylor!

You don't lean into a pitch with your elbow guard that isn't anywhere close to hitting you.

It was bullshit. And he'd be getting one in the ribs from me tomorrow if that was my teammate.

BigMeatballDave

06-20-2015, 05:04 PM

As shitty as it is, as a batter you do what you can for him to **** that up! I cant blame dude for that. **** being the final out in a perfect game. He just did a little Don Baylor!

Disagree. Doing that down by 6 is bush league.

Deberg_1990

06-20-2015, 05:15 PM

Lost perfect game on crappy hit batter in 9th with two outs. Jose Tabata leaned into the pitch in the strike zone.

I was going to go to today's game but bought tickets for tomorrow

Your Pirates? Do you own the team?

kcxiv

06-20-2015, 05:20 PM

Disagree. Doing that down by 6 is bush league.

As a player you are supposed to do whatever you can to break that shit up.

eDave

06-20-2015, 05:21 PM

I suspect there are a few pitchers around the league who want to plunk him.

I suspect that was Matt Williams call though.

Edit: Strike that. Williams has class. This was on Tabata. I thought the batter supposed to make an effort to move out of the way.

BigRedChief

06-20-2015, 07:12 PM

Yeah, that was pretty shitty. It's one thing if the pitch runs way in and he can't get out of the way. But to lean down like that and take it in the elbow pad, not even a real part of the body?

Wish the umpire had enforced the "didn't attempt to get out of the pitch rule" on that one. And when he sees the highlights after the game, I suspect he will, too.

It's just too bad Max Scherzer isn't as good a player as elite setup man Sam Freeman... o:-)That was such BS. 2 outs in the 9th of a perfect game. Down 6 runs? WTF? That was so low class shit.:harumph:

bdj23

06-20-2015, 08:31 PM

Tabata needs to get earholed tomorrow.

I'd have plunked Harrison

cosmo20002

06-20-2015, 08:54 PM

Lost perfect game on crappy hit batter in 9th with two outs. Jose Tabata leaned into the pitch in the strike zone.

I was going to go to today's game but bought tickets for tomorrow

In the strike zone? Yeah...no.
Just a thought...maybe Scherzer shouldn't have thrown it where it might hit the batter?

BigMeatballDave

06-21-2015, 05:59 AM

In the strike zone? Yeah...no.
Just a thought...maybe Scherzer shouldn't have thrown it where it might hit the batter?

:spock: Really? Do you think maybe because it says he 'leaned' into it, that he FUCKING LEANED INTO THE PITCH?

BigMeatballDave

06-21-2015, 06:03 AM

As a player you are supposed to do whatever you can to break that shit up.

Sure. Swing and hit it.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 08:59 AM

What ever happened to the rule where you had to make an attempt to avoid being hit to be awarded 1st base?

6.08
The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when --

(b) He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (1) The ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (2) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball;
If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.

That pitch was probably a ball and should have been ball 3, but just because he leaned into it and it was close to the strike zone I would have rung his ass up on strikes.

Hootie

06-21-2015, 09:15 AM

As a player you are supposed to do whatever you can to break that shit up.
You're so dumb

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 09:32 AM

I'm actually with Cosmo on this. We're not talking about Barry Bonds who crowded the plate. This pitch was way inside. Let's start there. It was also a bad pitch that was supposed to break but didn't.

Tabata's explanation was that he was expecting the ball to break but it didn't. If you watch the full replay he's cocking his bat back. He wants to swing. It's not like he's taking all the way. The ball didn't move as he expected. His reaction from there is weird. But he has a micro fraction of a second to react vs. a fastball inside where he knows right away to get out of the way.

Scherzer screwed up. Tabata was reacting to the screw up. Funny that people are twisting it to be the other way around.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:37 AM

I'm actually with Cosmo on this. We're not talking about Barry Bonds who crowded the plate. This pitch was way inside.

That's where I stopped.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 09:41 AM

That's where I stopped.

Um, wow. Okay.

You really want to stick to your guns on this one? I'm pulling up a screen shot. Fucking obvious it was off the plate by quite a bit.

Hootie

06-21-2015, 09:42 AM

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:44 AM

Um, wow. Okay.

You really want to stick to your guns on this one? I'm pulling up a screen shot. ****ing obvious it was off the plate by quite a bit.

It was maybe over the chalk of the batters box. Not way inside, dipshit. The ball only hit him because he dropped his elbow intentionally. If he kept his elbows up in his "ready to swing" position the ball probably comes about as close to hitting him as it is to the plate.

Hootie

06-21-2015, 09:44 AM

Ok nevermind ... Just watched it. That was TERRIBLE.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:46 AM

Ok nevermind ... Just watched it. That was TERRIBLE.

Yet another perfect game ruined by umps like Joyce that don't understand that if a defender with control of the ball reaches first base before the batter then the batter is out. Just that in this case, the home plate umpire doesn't know that if a batter makes no effort to avoid a pitch thats a ball, its a ball.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 09:48 AM

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH-h7oXWcAAKUus.jpg

Keep in mind the ball is still tailing right... you can even see the catcher leaning to his left. The pitch is a ball by a mile. Tabata's elbow is outside the strike zone by a lot. He's not crowding the plate. These are facts. The other fact is that Scherzer threw a duffed slider that didn't break but instead tailed in.

It was a bad pitch at the wrong moment. Maybe Tabata reacted wrongly... who knows, maybe intentionally. But the main reason Tabata got hit was it was a bad pitch. Period.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:49 AM

Keep in mind the ball is still tailing right... you can even see the catcher leaning to his left. The pitch is a ball by a mile. Tabata's elbow is outside the strike zone by a lot. He's not crowding the plate. These are facts. The other fact is that Scherzer threw a duffed slider that didn't break but instead tailed in.

It was a bad pitch at the wrong moment. Maybe Tabata reacted wrongly... who knows, maybe intentionally. But the main reason Tabata got hit was it was a bad pitch. Period.

Get back to me when you understand MLB rules.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 09:51 AM

Yet another perfect game ruined by umps like Joyce that don't understand that if a defender with control of the ball reaches first base before the batter then the batter is out. Just that in this case, the home plate umpire doesn't know that if a batter makes no effort to avoid a pitch thats a ball, its a ball.

I don't have a problem with the umps ruling this way. I would imagine Tabata wouldn't either. Given the importance of the situation. But at any other point in the game, it's a HBP and a legit one.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:52 AM

I don't have a problem with the umps ruling this way. I would imagine Tabata wouldn't either. Given the importance of the situation. But at any other point in the game, it's a HBP and a legit one.

Your and idiot. In no point in any game is a batter getting hit by a pitch with no effort to avoid being hit by the ball a "legit HBP." The only time I wouldn't argue with a batter not moving out of the way is when the ball is headed directly at his mid section and hits him square in the back.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 09:55 AM

Get back to me when you understand MLB rules.

What are MLB rules? That the umpire has to literally interpret whether the batter had INTENT to get out of the way? We're really going to play that game?
I understand the MLB rules. That is called a HBP 9 out of 10 times. If this is a playoff game, it's called a HBP 9.9 out of 10 times.

If this happened at any other point in the game, nobody says a word about this. The #1 reason this happened was because a pitch got away. When that happens, the benefit of the doubt goes to the hitter.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 09:55 AM

What are MLB rules? That the umpire has to literally interpret whether the batter had INTENT to get out of the way? We're really going to play that game?
I understand the MLB rules. That is called a HBP 9 out of 10 times. If this is a playoff game, it's called a HBP 9.9 out of 10 times.

If this happened at any other point in the game, nobody says a word about this. The #1 reason this happened was because a pitch got away. When that happens, the benefit of the doubt goes to the hitter.

I ****ing posted the rule, Einstein.

It's not hard to tell whether someone is trying to avoid a pitch or not. If you are trying to argue that Tabata wasn't trying to intentionally drop his elbow into that ball then you are far dumber than I ever imagined.

What do 99.9% of batters do when trying to avoid a ball thrown chest high? Answer: Lift their arms and kick their ass out.

Hootie

06-21-2015, 09:58 AM

Hootie

06-21-2015, 10:01 AM

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:02 AM

I don't think for a second Tabata tried to get hit ... It's a split second thought and instinct took over for him. It was still a TERRIBLE thing in that situation, though. So bad. Like that dipshit who bunted years ago to break up Schilling's perfect

Seriously? Lol. These guys can avoid a 95+ fastball inside but Tabata can't avoid a breaking ball thats over the chalk?

Have you literally ever stood in a batters box and been thrown inside? Instinct doesn't tell you to stand there with your feet planted and drop your elbow.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:08 AM

Your and idiot. In no point in any game is a batter getting hit by a pitch with no effort to avoid being hit by the ball a "legit HBP." The only time I wouldn't argue with a batter not moving out of the way is when the ball is headed directly at his mid section and hits him square in the back.

How much reaction time do you really think a hitter has if he's expecting the ball to break then realizes it's not going to? He expected the ball to break. It didn't. It tailed in. Have you ever tried to hit an off-speed pitch? Because you seem to think these guys have seconds to think and react. They have fractions of a second and if you misjudge the break of the ball, you have even less time to react.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:12 AM

How much reaction time do you really think a hitter has if he's expecting the ball to break then realizes it's not going to? He expected the ball to break. It didn't. It tailed in. Have you ever tried to hit an off-speed pitch? Because you seem to think these guys have seconds to think and react. They have fractions of a second and if you misjudge the break of the ball, you have even less time to react.

Yawn.

"Hey, Tabata, why didn't you get out of the way of that ball?"

- "Because my job is to get on base and I wanted it to hit me."

Yup. I totally see someone saying that.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:13 AM

I ****ing posted the rule, Einstein.

It's not hard to tell whether someone is trying to avoid a pitch or not. If you are trying to argue that Tabata wasn't trying to intentionally drop his elbow into that ball then you are far dumber than I ever imagined.

What do 99.9% of batters do when trying to avoid a ball thrown chest high? Answer: Lift their arms and kick their ass out.

Are you talking about a cutter or a 4-seam fastball?

There is a huge difference between a ball that's going straight at you (4-seamer) and one that runs into your hands. This wasn't a cutter. But it was a duffed slider that ended up tailing in.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:15 AM

cosmo20002

06-21-2015, 10:22 AM

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:27 AM

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/43487246/v182371383/pitwsh-tabata-hit-by-pitch-breaks-up-perfect-game

Pay attention to the slowmo from :43 on. Now watch him drop his entire upper body straight down into the ball when he sees it inside. Totally trying to not get hit... Irrational clowns...

http://i59.tinypic.com/2qd20dl.jpg
Tell me what Tabata is trying to do here. Sure as hell looks like the guy is ready to swing the bat. So the idea that he's leaning into the pitch is ridiculous. He was planning to hit it. Looking at this picture, don't know how anyone can claim he was leaning in. Leaning in is something you do when you're taking all the way.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:28 AM

Tell me what Tabata is trying to do here. Sure as hell looks like the guy is ready to swing the bat. So the idea that he's leaning into the pitch is ridiculous. He was planning to hit it. Looking at this picture, don't know how anyone can claim he was leaning in. Leaning in is something you do when you're taking all the way.

What the ****?

Your takes are so fucking stupid it's not even worth discussing any more.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:31 AM

People keep saying he leaned into it as if I can't see the video a million times.
That's leaning? If his elbow moved an inch, that was about it.
And this stuff about leaning into the strike zone, and he was hit in the strike zone...WTF are you all ****ing looking at?

Scherzer threw a bad pitch. It was inside by a lot
Scherzer's pitch tailed in. So the ball tailed into the hitter, not the other way around
Tabata was not crowding the plate. In fact, he's playing pretty far off the plate even when he's hit
Tabata has intent to swing at the pitch

For all these things, Tabata did nothing wrong. Scherzer was the one who fucked that up. So literally we are getting on Tabata's case for how he responded in a fraction of a fraction of a second when he realizes mid-pitch that the pitch is going to tail into him.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:33 AM

What the ****?

Your takes are so ****ing stupid it's not even worth discussing any more.

Answer the fucking question. Judging by that picture in mid-pitch... what is Tabata trying to do? Does he look like a guy who is trying to take the pitch? Sure as hell looks like a guy who's thinking of swinging the bat.

O.city

06-21-2015, 10:33 AM

It's a flat slider, flat sliders don't "tail" armside.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:36 AM

Answer the ****ing question. Judging by that picture in mid-pitch... what is Tabata trying to do? Does he look like a guy who is trying to take the pitch? Sure as hell looks like a guy who's thinking of swinging the bat.

I dont give a fuck what Tabata is trying to do as Scherzer releases the ball. He dropped his elbow into the pitch and made no attempt to avoid it. Thats all I fucking care about. That should have been ball 3 and a full count and in no circumstance is that ever a legit HBP.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:36 AM

It's a flat slider, flat sliders don't "tail" armside.

Tail is the wrong word. If that ball breaks, it doesn't run inside like that. It's a pitch you might think about hitting.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:40 AM

If players aren't allowed to wear ****ing body armor at the plate, do people like Tabata react the same way to an inside pitch? Hell... If he wasn't even wearing that armor the ball misses him. The ball barely clips the rounded tip of the armor that's extending below his elbow by atleast a couple inches.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:47 AM

I dont give a **** what Tabata is trying to do as Scherzer releases the ball. He dropped his elbow into the pitch and made no attempt to avoid it. Thats all I ****ing care about. That should have been ball 3 and a full count and in no circumstance is that ever a legit HBP.

The picture I showed you is in mid-pitch. It's not "as Scherzer releases the ball." And you should care because Tabata isn't looking to take an easy HBP. He's looking to hit the ball and then reacts in mid-pitch when he realizes he shouldn't swing at it. That's a hell of a lot different than the accusations that he's trying to lean into the pitch.

O.city

06-21-2015, 10:48 AM

It was a breaking ball that didn't break and Tabata dropped his elbow into it. Shitty pitch, shitty reaction.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 10:48 AM

And you should care because Tabata isn't looking to take an easy HBP.

Ya. He definitely wasn't looking to take an easy HBP there at all. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ball 3. Full count. End of discussion. Shitty players being rewarded by terrible Umps.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 10:58 AM

Ya. He definitely wasn't looking to take an easy HBP there at all. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ball 3. Full count. End of discussion. Shitty players being rewarded by terrible Umps.

It's amazing that in all of this, you're putting no blame whatsoever on the pitcher who threw a ball way off the plate and threw a busted breaking ball that didn't break. It was a bad pitch first. The hitter was legitimately trying to hit the pitch then reacted badly when the pitch didn't do what it was supposed to.

Sorry, not going to crucify a hitter who reacts badly in an impulse where he literally has no time to think about what he's doing. I think the umpire should have handled that differently only because of the situation. But 9.9 times out of 10, calling that a HBP is the right one.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 11:00 AM

But 9.9 times out of 10, calling that a HBP is the right one.

And 9.9/10, by rule, you are 100% wrong. Just because that rule is rarely enforced, ignoring it doesnt make it right.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 11:09 AM

And 9.9/10, by rule, you are 100% wrong. Just because that rule is rarely enforced, ignoring it doesnt make it right.

So then let's just excuse pitchers who throw way off the plate inside. And then blame the hitter for not getting out of the way.

Tabata wasn't crowding the plate. The pitch was way inside and didn't do what it was supposed to. It was a broken, inaccurate pitch. Batter was legitimately trying to attack the pitch. So yeah... rather than blame the hitter, maybe tell the pitcher not to throw so far off the plate. The rule is there for hitters who intentionally lean into pitches. It is not meant for interpreting how hitters react in a split second to a pitch that gets away.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 11:11 AM

So then let's just excuse pitchers who throw way off the plate inside. And then blame the hitter for not getting out of the way.

Excuse the pitchers? It's a ball. Just in case you don't know much about baseball, a ball isn't a positive for a pitcher.

And no where in the rule does it say that the batter isn't awarded first base if he intentionally leans into a pitch. It also doesn't say that if the pitcher throws a breaking ball that doesn't break that hits the batter the batter is awarded first base. It says that a batter must make an attempt to avoid the pitch. That's it.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 11:33 AM

Excuse the pitchers? It's a ball. Just in case you don't know much about baseball, a ball isn't a positive for a pitcher.

It is a mulligan for a bad pitch. The pitch was far inside. Period. Every pitcher knows the zone where a batter could get hit. Again, we're not talking about a guy crowding the plate.

I don't want umps making judgment calls if a pitch is clearly way inside. Batters can freeze. Can xpect a different pitch. Flinch. Move the wrong way. The pitch was far enough inside that many batters would have been hit.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 11:35 AM

I don't want umps making judgment calls if a pitch is clearly way inside.

You are so boring. What fucking judgement call? A batter gets hit by an inside pitch and doesnt move. Ball. There is no judgement. It's pretty straight forward.

cosmo20002

06-21-2015, 12:15 PM

And 9.9/10, by rule, you are 100% wrong. Just because that rule is rarely enforced, ignoring it doesnt make it right.

:facepalm:

It is enforced--when the umpire knows there was no attempt to move, it is enforced. Problem is, they hardly ever "know." Ball coming 95 mph, batter instinctively shifting weight preparing to swing, that's a hell of a judgment call.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 12:22 PM

You are so boring. What ****ing judgement call? A batter gets hit by an inside pitch and doesnt move. Ball. There is no judgement. It's pretty straight forward.

You must have watched baseball for a day. Let alone played it. There are lots of reasons why a hitter might not move to react to a pitch coming at them.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 12:22 PM

:facepalm:

It is enforced--when the umpire knows there was no attempt to move, it is enforced. Problem is, they hardly ever "know." Ball coming 95 mph, batter instinctively shifting weight preparing to swing, that's a hell of a judgment call.

Oh really?

So you routinely see umpires calling balls on these guys that wear body armor and stand there to take a pitch off the elbow not being awarded 1st base? I can't remember the last time I saw someone not be awarded 1st in that scenario.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 12:23 PM

You must have watched baseball for a day. Let alone played it. There are lots of reasons why a hitter might not move to react to a pitch coming at them.

Only played baseball my entire life through highschool. Maybe you can name all these reasons why a player would put on body armor and not move out of the way of a pitch other than to let it hit them.

I can't remember the guys name, but there was a White Sox/Padres outfielder that would do it routinely.

EDIT: Carlos Quentin... http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carlos-quentins-hbp-zone/

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 12:37 PM

Only played baseball my entire life through highschool. Maybe you can name all these reasons why a player would put on body armor and not move out of the way of a pitch other than to let it hit them.

I can't remember the guys name, but there was a White Sox/Padres outfielder that would do it routinely.

Why is the body armor relevant if he's not crowding the plate?

Why might you not move? Frozen. Expecting a different pitch. Not sure how to react or move out of the way. In this case, expecting a breaking pitch and then realize it's not going to break. If that ball breaks as its supposed to... It might be a strike.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 12:39 PM

Why might you not move? Frozen. Expecting a different pitch. Not sure how to react or move out of the way. In this case, expecting a breaking pitch and then realize it's not going to break. If that ball breaks as its supposed to... It might be a strike.

In any of those cases in which a player doesn't attempt to move out of the way of a ball and gets hit by it, it's still a ball. Why is that so ****ing hard for you to comprehend? I think it's absolutely hilarious that you seem to think a player can judge a pitch a strike or ball and manage to take a bat and hit it before it gets to the catcher but they don't have enough time to react and make an attempt to avoid a ball that could possibly hit them.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 12:42 PM

In any of those cases in which a player doesn't attempt to move out of the way of a ball and gets hit by it, it's still a ball. Why is that so ****ing hard for you to comprehend?

So if a pitcher throws an off speed pitch way inside, batter freezes, and gets hit... You're going to call that a ball and not an hbp? Let me get this straight before I call you a complete moron.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 12:43 PM

So if a pitcher throws an off speed pitch way inside, batter freezes, and gets hit... You're going to call that a ball and not an hbp? Let me get this straight before I call you a complete moron.

Ummm, yes? It's the rule you moron. No where does it say that a batter can be "fooled by a non-breaking breaking ball" and stand there and take it off the elbow and be given 1st base.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 12:46 PM

Ummm, yes?

Wow. So the pitcher throws a terrible pitch but it's the batters fault for not getting out of the way. At least you know the rules. You just have a moronic interpretation of the rules.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 12:46 PM

Wow. So the pitcher throws a terrible pitch but it's the batters fault for not getting out of the way. At least you know the rules. You just have a moronic interpretation of the rules.

That wasn't a terrible pitch. It was inside. It wasn't even at him. Shut the **** up you ignorant inbred.

If a pitch hits a guy square in the fucking back I'm going to give him 1st base because there's nothing you can possibly do to avoid it. When a ball nicks your foot, skims your shirt, or deflects off your elbow and you just stand there because "you didn't expect that." Then you get to sit there, shake it off, and get back in the batters box.

Hootie

06-21-2015, 12:48 PM

Welp. This thread is full retard.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 01:00 PM

That wasn't a terrible pitch. It was inside. It wasn't even at him. Shut the **** up you ignorant inbred.

If a pitch hits a guy square in the ****ing back I'm going to give him 1st base because there's nothing you can possibly do to avoid it. When a ball nicks your foot, skims your shirt, or deflects off your elbow and you just stand there because "you didn't expect that." Then you get to sit there, shake it off, and get back in the batters box.

So if I shank a golf shot, yell "fore" and hit you... It's not my fault for hitting into you. It's your fault for not reacting and getting out of the way. Got it.

The pitcher threw a bad pitch. Hitter was reacting to it. Hitters fault for not getting out of the way. Got it.

I get if people want to argue with me that this was intentional. But the idea that a batter should be penalized for not getting out of the way is batshit stupid. The pitcher knows where the hitter is standing. Pretty simple. Don't throw it there. The pitcher made the mistake, not the hitter.

jd1020

06-21-2015, 01:01 PM

So if I shank a golf shot, yell "fore" and hit you... It's not my fault for hitting into you. It's your fault for not reacting and getting out of the way. Got it.

Could you think up a dumber analogy?

KCUnited

06-21-2015, 01:02 PM

I can now see FMB's point.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 01:19 PM

Could you think up a dumber analogy?

If a pitcher throws a wild pitch, blame the catcher for not making a play on it. If a fielder makes a poor throw to first, blame the first baseman for scooping it up. If a QB makes a bad throw to a receiver, blame the receiver for not making a great play.

When the Thrower makes a bad throw, you blame the Thrower first. The guy on the other end... Maybe he could do things better,but none of the shit happens if the throw is accurate or even remotely accurate.

Hydrae

06-21-2015, 03:03 PM

So if I shank a golf shot, yell "fore" and hit you... It's not my fault for hitting into you. It's your fault for not reacting and getting out of the way. Got it.

The pitcher threw a bad pitch. Hitter was reacting to it. Hitters fault for not getting out of the way. Got it.

I get if people want to argue with me that this was intentional. But the idea that a batter should be penalized for not getting out of the way is batshit stupid. The pitcher knows where the hitter is standing. Pretty simple. Don't throw it there. The pitcher made the mistake, not the hitter.

You are correct but can you guys at least argue about the same thing? No one is saying it is his fault for not getting out of the way. They are saying that he made no EFFORT to get out of the way which is required by the rules as written.

Carry on...

Lex Luthor

06-21-2015, 03:26 PM

You are correct but can you guys at least argue about the same thing? No one is saying it is his fault for not getting out of the way. They are saying that he made no EFFORT to get out of the way which is required by the rules as written.

Carry on...
Exactly. That is the subtle point that Chiefzilla has failed to acknowledge.

There is a precedent for an umpire making such a ruling in a big situation. Dick Dietz, former catcher for the Giants, was hit by a pitch. He made no attempt to get out of the way, and the umpire refused to award him first base.

Dietz is remembered for his role in a controversial umpiring decision during the 1968 season. The Giants were facing Dodgers' pitcher Don Drysdale, who was in the midst of a scoreless inning streak that would eventually reach a record-setting 58 and two-thirds innings. The Giants had the bases loaded with no outs and Dietz at bat. Dietz was hit by a pitch, apparently ending Drysdale's scoreless innings streak. However, home plate umpire Harry Wendelstedt, citing a rarely enforced rule, refused to allow Dietz to take first base, claiming that Dietz did not attempt to avoid being struck by the ball. Drysdale then retired Dietz and the next two batters, keeping his scoreless streak alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dietz

I've seen the replay a dozen times. Tabata made no attempt to avoid the pitch. He should not have been awarded first base.

It's the rule.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 03:27 PM

You are correct but can you guys at least argue about the same thing? No one is saying it is his fault for not getting out of the way. They are saying that he made no EFFORT to get out of the way which is required by the rules as written.

Carry on...

I appreciate the response. But think about why the rule was designed. It was to punish guys like Bonds who got hit on the elbow for borderline strikes. Or serial plate crowders like Victorino. All the HBP's on this link, in my opinion, are egregious. These are all great examples of HBPs that should be called a ball/strike:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/shane-victorino-and-near-strike-hit-by-pitches/

What do they share in common? Most of these are pitches that just missed the strike zone. Hitter is crowding the batter's box. In many cases, hitter's elbow is over the plate. It's a much different situation when the pitcher legitimately throws a bad pitch off the plate. And hits a guy standing off the plate several inches off the plate. If the rule is interpreted that way, you're giving a pitcher a really big mulligan for throwing a bad pitch.

chiefzilla1501

06-21-2015, 03:48 PM

Exactly. That is the subtle point that Chiefzilla has failed to acknowledge.

There is a precedent for an umpire making such a ruling in a big situation. Dick Dietz, former catcher for the Giants, was hit by a pitch. He made no attempt to get out of the way, and the umpire refused to award him first base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dietz

I've seen the replay a dozen times. Tabata made no attempt to avoid the pitch. He should not have been awarded first base.

It's the rule.

Given the importance of the call to Scherzer, if I'm the ump, I call the pitch a ball. Just as they probably did with Drysdale (I haven't seen that play so I don't know how far off the plate the pitch was).

The point of the HBP is to punish pitchers who miss. So yeah, I'm with you if the pitcher throws a decent or borderline pitch but misses by a little bit and somehow hits a batter who's crowding the plate. But that's not what happened here. It was a mistake pitch. It was inaccurate and it was a busted breaking pitch. If we're calling back HBPs that were off the plate, that's making a pretty significant rule change that this league hasn't called 9 times out of 10. The Dietz example is interesting but wonder if it's called if Drysdale isn't chasing history (again, I never saw the play, so I dont' have a frame of reference)

Valiant

06-21-2015, 04:08 PM

As shitty as it is, as a batter you do what you can for him to **** that up! I cant blame dude for that. **** being the final out in a perfect game. He just did a little Don Baylor!

I agreed until I saw the lean.. Holy hell, that was bad.. No where near him. Might as well let him stick his pad out everytime over the plate for a hit batter.

Nightfyre

06-22-2015, 11:58 AM

cosmo20002

06-22-2015, 12:03 PM

Oh really?

So you routinely see umpires calling balls on these guys that wear body armor and stand there to take a pitch off the elbow not being awarded 1st base? I can't remember the last time I saw someone not be awarded 1st in that scenario.

No--I don't see that. Re-read my post. I said it doesn't happen because it is a hell of a judgment call as to whether a batter tried to avoid getting hit.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 01:13 PM

No--I don't see that. Re-read my post. I said it doesn't happen because it is a hell of a judgment call as to whether a batter tried to avoid getting hit.

You said it's enforced. How many times a decade is it called when you can blatantly tell that a player didn't avoid contact with the ball or even intentionally turned into it? Once? Wow! You have a better chance finding a cop willing to write paper work for a ****ing jay walking violation.

I wonder what the comparison between batters hit by pitches in the strike zone and awarded first base vs batters not given first base on any kind of hit by pitch is. I bet its HEAVILY skewed to the guys standing on first.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:25 PM

You said it's enforced. How many times a decade is it called when you can blatantly tell that a player didn't avoid contact with the ball or even intentionally turned into it? Once? Wow! You have a better chance finding a cop willing to write paper work for a ****ing jay walking violation.

Good. It's pretty simple. Don't want to get charged with a hbp? Then throw it near the plate. Again, I get if you enforce this rule for plate crowders. That's why the rule is in place. Anytime you ask a ref or ump to start judging intent, that's where things go nuts. It's why the nba had such a tough time enforcing flagrant fouls this year. Or why the NFL is so inconsistent enforcing personal fouls. It's not like a check swing where there is a clear rule about what is too far. This is an umpire giving an opinion about intent.

I agree the rules are enforced inconsistently. But this is not the play to showcase that. The link I shared above... That's the issue.

scho63

06-22-2015, 01:29 PM

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:29 PM

I wonder how the game would change if they changed a HBP on the elbow pads into a foul ball instead of a free base. I bet there would be a lot fewer folks getting those elbow pads and crowding the plate. Barry Bonds would have had a totally different career.

I agree. But that's not the issue here. Tabata wasn't crowding the plate. The pitch was far off the plate. Maybe he was a little braver with the elbow pad on. But it's different from a guy like Bonds or Victorino who are notorious for crowding the plate and stepping into pitches.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 01:30 PM

Good. It's pretty simple. Don't want to get charged with a hbp? Then throw it near the plate. Again, I get if you enforce this rule for plate crowders. That's why the rule is in place. Anytime you ask a ref or ump to start judging intent, that's where things go nuts. It's why the nba had such a tough time enforcing flagrant fouls this year. Or why the NFL is so inconsistent enforcing personal fouls. It's not like a check swing where there is a clear rule about what is too far. This is an umpire giving an opinion about intent.

I agree the rules are enforced inconsistently. But this is not the play to showcase that. The link I shared above... That's the issue.

Stop talking on the subject until you realize that the rule states that a batter must make an attempt to avoid the ball and it doesn't matter where the thing is fucking thrown.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:32 PM

Here is a great video replay

<iframe src="https://vine.co/v/eiPaIH3LUtd/embed/simple" width="600" height="600" frameborder="0"></iframe><script src="https://platform.vine.co/static/scripts/embed.js"></script>

I actually think it's a bad replay. There is another replay in the original broadcast that shows the full plate. The replay here makes it look a lot worse than it actually was.

scho63

06-22-2015, 01:39 PM

I actually think it's a bad replay. There is another replay in the original broadcast that shows the full plate. The replay here makes it look a lot worse than it actually was.

As a Pirates fan, I have to ask why did he drop down following the ball flight rather than pull away? :hmmm:

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:47 PM

Stop talking on the subject until you realize that the rule states that a batter must make an attempt to avoid the ball and it doesn't matter where the thing is ****ing thrown.

You yourself said the rule isn't consistently enforced. You know why? Because umpires don't view the rule in black and white the way you do. Thank goodness for that.

The rule is meant to prevent hitters from stepping into pitches. Not to punish hitters who get frozen on a pitch and don't move. Or to punish a hitter who didn't get out of the way because a cutter ran into his hands. It's based on the umpire's opinion of when the batter realizes he has to get out of the way. If the batter doesn't realize he's supposed to get out of the way until the last minute, he shouldn't be punished for not getting out of the way. If a hitter is crowding the plate -- that's a different story because if you're going to set up that far inside, you have to expect pitches to come near you.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:50 PM

As a Pirates fan, I have to ask why did he drop down following the ball flight rather than pull away? :hmmm:

I don't think his body drops down. His body drops because if you watch the full replay (not the one in the Vine you posted), you'll see he looks like he's thinking about hitting the ball. When the ball doesn't break as he's expecting, he realizes the ball's going to come at him. The part I won't argue about is that he dips his elbow. But again, that seemed to me more like a reflex or panic than a guy thinking in mid-pitch "maybe if I dip my elbow, I'll get bases."

That elbow dip makes it borderline for me. Which is why I think the ump should have given him a ball, but only because of the circumstance. But it doesn't strike me as some cheap way to get on base.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 01:52 PM

You yourself said the rule isn't consistently enforced. You know why? Because umpires don't view the rule in black and white the way you do. Thank goodness for that.

The rule is meant to prevent hitters from stepping into pitches. Not to punish hitters who get frozen on a pitch and don't move. Or to punish a hitter who didn't get out of the way because a cutter ran into his hands. It's based on the umpire's opinion of when the batter realizes he has to get out of the way. If the batter doesn't realize he's supposed to get out of the way until the last minute, he shouldn't be punished for not getting out of the way. If a hitter is crowding the plate -- that's a different story because if you're going to set up that far inside, you have to expect pitches to come near you.

You literally have 0 knowledge on what MLB intended when writing that rule.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 01:55 PM

You literally have 0 knowledge on what MLB intended when writing that rule.

The rule was to avoid plate crowders and guys like Victorino who are notorious for getting hit all the time on pitches that are either strikes are near strikes.

That is just laughable if you think the intent was to punish guys who get hit by a bad pitch. Because THAT was apparently a problem people were complaining about.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 01:59 PM

The rule was to avoid plate crowders and guys like Victorino who are notorious for getting hit all the time on pitches that are either strikes are near strikes.

That is just laughable if you think the intent was to punish guys who get hit by a bad pitch. Because THAT was apparently a problem people were complaining about.

I find you laughable that you continue to argue that Tabata was "fooled by the pitch and he dropped down because he was going to swing at it."

So dumb, so dumb.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 02:09 PM

I find you laughable that you continue to argue that Tabata was "fooled by the pitch and he dropped down because he was going to swing at it."

So dumb, so dumb.

I never said Tabata was fooled by the pitch. He was expecting the breaking ball to turn and it never did. If he was fooled it's because he wasn't expecting Scherzer to duff the pitch.

Go ahead and re-look at the picture I posted earlier. He's thinking of swinging. And based on where the ball is positioned mid-pitch, if that slider breaks the way it's supposed to, it's something you might swing at.
http://i59.tinypic.com/2qd20dl.jpg

jd1020

06-22-2015, 02:16 PM

Yawn. A batter loading up to potentially swing at a ball as the pitcher is releasing the ball is unheard of I tell you, unheard of. I just find it amazing how nearly every other big leaguer has the cat like reflexes to avoid a pitch that wasn't going to hit them in the first place. Simply amazing those guys.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 02:18 PM

cosmo20002

06-22-2015, 02:21 PM

You said it's enforced. How many times a decade is it called when you can blatantly tell that a player didn't avoid contact with the ball or even intentionally turned into it? Once? Wow! You have a better chance finding a cop willing to write paper work for a ****ing jay walking violation.

I wonder what the comparison between batters hit by pitches in the strike zone and awarded first base vs batters not given first base on any kind of hit by pitch is. I bet its HEAVILY skewed to the guys standing on first.

Sorry...I was being a bit sarcastic.

Are you claiming the pitch was hit him within the strike zone? Because that would be ridiculous if you are.
I still don't get where people see him so blatantly leaning into the pitch in the first place. Unless a batter has decided beforehand to take the pitch, there is some natural weigh shifting going on in preparing to swing.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 02:22 PM

The pitch is more than halfway to the plate in that picture. Are you seriously not seeing that?

Do you even understand how little time it takes for that pitch to reach where it is in that stupid fucking screen cap you keep posting like gospel? If you were born with a brain you would watch the video and witness the exact moment in time where Tabata realizes its going to be inside and drops his elbow on the ball.

jd1020

06-22-2015, 02:23 PM

Sorry...I was being a bit sarcastic.

Are you claiming the pitch was hit him within the strike zone? Because that would be ridiculous if you are.
I still don't get where people see him so blatantly leaning into the pitch in the first place. Unless a batter has decided beforehand to take the pitch, there is some natural weigh shifting going on in preparing to swing.

I never claimed to have said the pitch hit him in the strike zone. I used to extremes that rarely happen and I'm betting the one extreme heavily outweighs the other.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 02:23 PM

Sorry...I was being a bit sarcastic.

Are you claiming the pitch was hit him within the strike zone? Because that would be ridiculous if you are.
I still don't get where people see him so blatantly leaning into the pitch in the first place. Unless a batter has decided beforehand to take the pitch, there is some natural weigh shifting going on in preparing to swing.

This is a strike or a near-strike to jd. Apparently.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH-h7oXWcAAKUus.jpg

jd1020

06-22-2015, 02:24 PM

This is a strike or a near-strike to jd. Apparently.

Never said it was a strike dipshit. It's not even inside the batters box, though.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 02:28 PM

Do you even understand how little time it takes for that pitch to reach where it is in that stupid ****ing screen cap you keep posting like gospel? If you were born with a brain you would watch the video and witness the exact moment in time where Tabata realizes its going to be inside and drops his elbow on the ball.

It's amazing that you acknowledge how little time passed between the ball leaving Scherzer's hands to my screen cap, yet you refuse to acknowledge how little time passes between my screen cap and the ball hitting Tabata's elbow.

The exact moment Tabata realizes it's going inside? After my screen cap. The ball is supposed to turn there and it doesn't. That is a microfraction of a second. In that microfraction, he has to stop his swing, decide he's going to take the pitch, and think about how he's going to get out of the way. Again, I don't know why he dropped the elbow but I at least acknowledge that he had an unbelievably small amount of time to make that decision.

chiefzilla1501

06-22-2015, 02:37 PM

Let me ask this...
What happens if Scherzer's ball breaks the way it's supposed to? Good chance it's strike 3. What happens if Tabata tries to get out of the way on that pitch? He's forever posterized as the guy who tried to get out of the way of strike 3 against a perfect game.

He stood in as long as he could until he realized the pitch wasn't doing what it was supposed to. By the time he realizes that, he has an incredibly short reaction time to get out of the way. We're not talking about a guy who knew the minute the ball left Scherzer's hand what the ball would do.

GloryDayz

06-22-2015, 02:38 PM

Funny how the 610 talking-head idiot thought what the guy did today was OK because he thinks it's OK to make sure history isn't made against you/your team. What a dolt! Another case of that 610 idiot trying to sound like he's go things figured out or something! Have I mentioned that I can't wait for that 610 asshole to move to a different city??? I get the player trying it, but clearly the rules forbid it, and while the player is an asshole and should be thrown at for the next 252 at-bats, and he be told he can no longer wear body armor for the rest of his MLB career since he's proven he'll abuse it, the umpire should be given many weeks off for not seeing what happened mere inches in front of him!

And fuck them all too - not Royals!