Brady v. NFL: No Settlement; Judge Berman to Decide

[Amnorix]

Can't find the old thread. Brady and Goodell were back in NYC today for settlement talks. No progress.

Judge Berman said he would likely decide "in the next day or two" and definitely before September 4th.

Interesting how the narrative among the national writers has evolved.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/roger-goodell-and-tom-brady-ignore-each-other--roll-dice-with-deflate-gate-judge-180816187.html


NEW YORK – They arrived surrounded by lawyers, each wearing a blue suit and displeased expression. Here was Roger Goodell and here was Tom Brady back in federal court in a fight over power, ego and legacy, as much as whether the footballs were deflated in January's AFC championship game.

New York Giants owner John Mara came in an attempt to soften the face of the league's side a bit. Jay Feely, a long-time NFL kicker and friend of Brady's from back at the University of Michigan, arrived to stand by his side.

Once again, nothing worked. A private meeting in front of Judge Richard M. Berman yielded nothing. No one budged. No one backed down. No settlement was reached.
And now both sides roll the dice and sit and wait for a ruling.

"Tomorrow or the day after," Berman said of when he would likely announce whether to vacate Brady's four-game suspension. He assured it would come before Sept. 4, when both sides requested an answer so the New England Patriots can begin preparing for the season opener with or without their star quarterback.

So that's that, all or nothing, all or everything, all eyes on the court docket here.

For Brady it's either a quarter of the season lost or a measure of redemption gained. For Goodell it's either a reaffirmation of the totality of his authority or another humiliating public defeat.

There may be appeals and requests for stays and thus months still to go, what will be won, what may not be done. None of that minimized the tension and drama inside Berman's 17th-floor courtroom here on Monday, when a case that started as a curiosity on that playoff night boiled toward a milestone, if not a conclusion.

Berman clearly knows how he is going to rule and likely has much of the decision already written. He's read and heard it all over the past month. There were no new arguments on Monday. The chief attorneys, Daniel Nash of the NFL and Jeffrey Kessler of the NFL Players Association, both merely stood and praised the efforts of all sides even though, as sometimes happens, they just couldn't reach a settlement.

"This is a time Mr. Nash and I are going to agree," Kessler joked.

The inability to find common ground is not a surprise. Tom Brady was simply never going to admit he had any role in the tampering of those footballs, or even that the footballs were ever tampered with in the first place.

First off, after he said as much under oath and then introduced the transcript into federal court, doing so would risk a perjury charge. More importantly though, it would be a complete reversal, making him a liar and a cheat, crushing his image among not just fans but, most importantly according to those that know him best, his own children.

He also very well may be innocent. The NFL never produced much of a case against him, let alone that the footballs were even unnaturally deflated.

So the only way a settlement could go down was for Goodell to drop any demands for an admission of guilt. He'd have to settle for Brady merely acknowledging a failure to fully cooperate with the investigation. That, however, would be a serious concession from a commissioner who's built his career on cracking heads among misbehaving players.

So there was the irresistible force clashing with the unmovable object, each willing to lose in court as long as he could still save face.
It has been, if nothing else, a remarkable showdown of oversized personalities.

In court Monday, the two men, rich and famous and atop their chosen professions, refused to even look at each other.

When the session was adjourned, both were forced to awkwardly wait for the galley to clear out of media and observers, leaving them within a few feet of each other a couple table rows apart.

Brady stood first and wandered over to one wood-paneled wall of the ornate courtroom. He stuffed his hands in his pocket, looking as intense as any tight fourth-quarter drive. Feely stood by his side and the two eventually hugged.

Goodell, seated in front, stood slowly and also put his hands in his pocket, looking down and then turning in the opposite direction of Brady, trying to wear a face of nonchalance.

Eight months into this scandal, after swings of allegations and misrepresentations, of false media leaks and broadside-legal attacks, the distrust and disgust were clear: Two men known for their ability to smoothly glide through life, with fashion and fabulous hair, looked strangely uncomfortable.

No one ever wants to sit in this position, leaving it to another man, federal judge or not, to declare whether he or she is a cheat or a fraud or a bully or a bum.

Here these two are though, going down that awkward path together. Their lives are seemingly too charmed for this, yet they were like a couple of rivals on opposite sides of the schoolyard, unwilling to even acknowledge the other's presence in front of onlookers.

The stakes seem higher for Goodell, if only because his legal argument here is based on the 1981 Supreme Court decision MLBPA v. Garvey, which essentially prohibits judges from interfering with the decision of arbitrators even if they are horrendously flawed or based on inaccurate facts. Arguing you have the right to be a dictator isn't ideal in public relations terms.

As such, Goodell and the NFL could certainly prevail in front of Berman but do so via a ruling full of the same kind of harsh verbiage that the judge used during two prior public sessions.

It's clear that no matter which way Berman goes, he looked upon the NFL's judicial system in general, and the league's conduct in this case specifically, as lacking any semblance of fairness or competency. He could unload in the ruling and leave Goodell laid out, even if he's technically victorious.

That's the risk Goodell was willing to take. And one Brady is willing to go with, essentially entering the verdict stage with a two-pronged chance at redemption – either total or at least in the court of public opinion. A loss and a four-game suspension would hurt, but he could at least point to an impartial federal judge down in New York agreeing that Goodell is out of line.

It's certainly reasonable that the NFL initially erred when it failed to comprehend Ideal Gas Law and thus initially thought any Patriots football that measured below 12.5 pounds per square inch of inflation was a sign of nefarious conduct. It immediately went after a speeding ticket like a homicide case.

But by the time the league should've have dialed it back, it had already leaked prejudicial stories and begun building a case against Brady and two Patriots locker room attendants. The NFL never was able to find a smoking gun or much more than suspicions, but that didn't matter.

The NFL not only never backed down, it just kept doubling down, believing the full force of the league's power – both in the CBA and in its ability to manipulate national reporters – would overwhelm Brady.

The league may be correct and on the verge of a show-of-force victory. It may be wrong and headed for a comeuppance.

It's all up to Judge Berman now. Who knows what he thinks and who knows what he'll rule. On Monday he seemed eager to make it known though as he sent the two men in fancy blue suits off into the Manhattan morning, Goodell via a black Escalade, Brady in a Chevy Suburban. Each is left awaiting his word.

The QB v. the Commissioner, it's all or everything now.

[FRCDFED]

I can't imagine any scenario where the judge sides with the NFL considering the lack of evidence and the lack of precedent in such a matter. Previous equipment violations (which Brady's involvement hasn't even been proven) only resulted in a $25k fine.

[Chiefnj2]

If he decides with the Pats he's basically telling every team to go ahead and destroy evidence in the future and fail to cooperate. Ray Farmer should have flushed his phone.

[thabear04]

Tom Brady Sketch Artist Gets Second Chance In Court

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/brady1.jpg?w=620&h=349&crop=1

[FRCDFED]

If he decides with the Pats he's basically telling every team to go ahead and destroy evidence in the future and fail to cooperate. Ray Farmer should have flushed his phone.

The blame for any shortcomings on the part of the internal investigators cannot be placed on Brady's shoulders. If what is being released, that Brady was told he didn't need to turn over the phone is true, then the drama about destroying the phone can just stop.

Goodell went too far on this one. To give up one-third of your salary due to suspension for a slightly underinflated ball, when the opponent that reported you also has underinflated balls in the same game, is just ridiculous. Doesn't matter if you love or hate Brady it is just dumb.

[BigRichard]

I can't imagine any scenario where the judge sides with the NFL considering the lack of evidence and the lack of precedent in such a matter. Previous equipment violations (which Brady's involvement hasn't even been proven) only resulted in a $25k fine.

How many times does this need to be repeated in these threads... he wasn't punished for the balls he was punished for his lack of cooperation.

[FRCDFED]

How many times does this need to be repeated in these threads... he wasn't punished for the balls he was punished for his lack of cooperation.

The same number of times it has to be repeated that he claimed he was told the phone wasn't needed. Therefore, he did cooperate with the investigation.

[FRCDFED]

I believe it was even acknowledged that Brady was told his phone wasn't needed.

[MagicHef]

I can't imagine any scenario where the judge sides with the NFL considering the lack of evidence and the lack of precedent in such a matter. Previous equipment violations (which Brady's involvement hasn't even been proven) only resulted in a $25k fine.

I can. The NFLPA negotiated the current CBA and agreed to give the commissioner the power he has. He used that power, the NFLPA is now trying to argue against the CBA they agreed to.

IMO, he'll throw it out, maintaining Brady's suspension.

[Chiefnj2]

The same number of times it has to be repeated that he claimed he was told the phone wasn't needed. Therefore, he did cooperate with the investigation.

The data from the phone was needed.

Only idiots believe the "deflator" was a weight loss term.

[FRCDFED]

Since the judge has to rule "all or nothing" I believe it will be nothing. If the penalty imposed by Goodell wasn't so severe then I would think there was a possibility that it would be upheld.

[MagicHef]

I believe it was even acknowledged that Brady was told his phone wasn't needed.

The judge isn't allowed to rule on whether or not the investigation was legitimate or if Brady's suspension was deserved. He's only allowed to rule on whether or not Goodell acted appropriately in regards to the CBA. Since the NFLPA decided to agree to a CBA that makes Goodell judge, jury and executioner, they don't really have an argument that will hold up.

[Amnorix]

I can't imagine any scenario where the judge sides with the NFL considering the lack of evidence and the lack of precedent in such a matter. Previous equipment violations (which Brady's involvement hasn't even been proven) only resulted in a $25k fine.


The problem for Berman, Brady and the NFLPA is that the NFLPA gave the Commish the power to be judge, jury and executioner. It's all rather insane, but arbitration provisions and awards are granted EXTREME deference by the courts. Courts really want to empower arbitrators, not disempower them.

[FRCDFED]

Amnorix should've made it a poll just to see which side everyone is on without all the in-thread bickering.

[Amnorix]

If he decides with the Pats he's basically telling every team to go ahead and destroy evidence in the future and fail to cooperate. Ray Farmer should have flushed his phone.


He cooperated pretty massively actually. Made himself available for interviews and turned over tons of emails (which of course later became public). He destroyed his phone only after he told them he would never get his phone, and indeed they had no right (under the CBA or otherwise) to get his phone.

And the phone destruction thing happened AFTER the punishment was handed down, IIRC.

And yet you want to make this all about the phone destruction, which is odd, because that's never what it was about to begin with.

Side note that nobody has ever been suspended for failing to cooperate before, INCLUDING THE KICKER, GOSTKOWSKI, who refused to turn over his phone IN THIS SAME INVESTIGATION!!

[MagicHef]

The problem for Berman, Brady and the NFLPA is that the NFLPA gave the Commish the power to be judge, jury and executioner. It's all rather insane, but arbitration provisions and awards are granted EXTREME deference by the courts. Courts really want to empower arbitrators, not disempower them.

What are you expecting?

[Amnorix]

How many times does this need to be repeated in these threads... he wasn't punished for the balls he was punished for his lack of cooperation.


How many times does this need to be said that you are wrong -- the NFL has NEVER said that. NEVER made it clear that it was lack of cooperation that resulted in his suspension. Indeed, their lawyer said it was BOTH the deflation AND the failure to cooperate.

[Amnorix]

I can. The NFLPA negotiated the current CBA and agreed to give the commissioner the power he has. He used that power, the NFLPA is now trying to argue against the CBA they agreed to.

IMO, he'll throw it out, maintaining Brady's suspension.


He may at that. It will be interesting to see what language he uses. He could uphold the suspension while crucifying the NFL. That would be quite a bit of fun to read, if that's the way it goes down.

[Tombstone RJ]

if the judge pulls a stupid supreme court ruling and sides with Brady, Goodell can appeal. This is one simple reason why said judge is a complete idiot for hearing the case. Don't kid yourself, this judge is an idiot for even accepting the case.

[AustinChief]

The problem here is that our us vs them mentality will cause people to blame Brady or the Pats (who are cheaters of course) when the blame for ALL OF THIS resides with the NFL. This whole fiasco is a result of their ridiculous pandering to Peyton Manning and Brady in the first place. Then they did a slipshod job of "investigating" things. THEN they decided to issue a ruling based not on facts but on what would best play with the media.

This whole mess is on Goodell and the NFL.

[Tombstone RJ]

The problem here is that our us vs them mentality will cause people to blame Brady or the Pats (who are cheaters of course) when the blame for ALL OF THIS resides with the NFL. This whole fiasco is a result of their ridiculous pandering to Peyton Manning and Brady in the first place. Then they did a slipshod job of "investigating" things. THEN they decided to issue a ruling based not on facts but on what would best play with the media.

This whole mess is on Goodell and the NFL.

IF Brady had just cooperated and not destroyed evidence, I'M absolutely positive Goodell would have lowered the suspension to maybe 2 games. This situation rests on Brady's shoulders more than the furer's shoulders IMHO.

[ChiliConCarnage]

I'm not an official Unfrozen Caveman lawyer but I assume the ruling will uphold the NFL's decision.

The judge seemed to be trying to instill some doubt in the NFL from the coverage I've seen. That makes me assume they have the much stronger case and he was trying to coerce them into being more willing to negotiate a settlement.

[Amnorix]

What are you expecting?


I won't be surprised with either result. I think Berman HATES what/how the NFL has done what it has done, but the law is pretty strong for the NFL. But Berman is pretty pro-labor, and if he isn't going to throw out this arbitration ruling, then there practically is no arbitration ruling that CAN be thrown out.

I suspects he overturns the NFL, vacating the suspension, and relies primarily on fundamental fairness (refusal to allow Pash to testify). If he really wants to go hog-wild, he could go on and on about Goodell's obviously lack of neutrality, which he can argue (though I doubt case law supports) means he is entitled to less deference than an arbitrator might get in other situations.

You can trust that the opinion is largely written already, and that whoever loses will definitely appeal. If Brady wins, the NFL appeal has a reasonable chance of succeeding at the Second Circuit. If the NFL wins, Brady's appeal is VERY UNLIKELY to succeed at the Second Circuit.

Note that I wouldn't bet a nickel on which way Berman will go. I suspect he WANTS to rule for Brady, but he might not find a way to comfortably do so, given how slanted the law is in the NFL's favor.

[Amnorix]

I'm not an official Unfrozen Caveman lawyer but I assume the ruling will uphold the NFL's decision.

The judge seemed to be trying to instill some doubt in the NFL from the coverage I've seen. That makes me assume they have the much stronger case and he was trying to coerce them into being more willing to negotiate a settlement.

Hard to read tea leaves. I've seen federal judges (magistrates, typically) beat up one side because they were blind as to the weaknesses of their case. In other words, he was beating up the side with the weaker case.

But I've also seen what you're suggesting. Goes both ways, and generally the judge beats up on whoever is more unreasonably stubborn, in the judge's view.

[AustinChief]

IF Brady had just cooperated and not destroyed evidence, I'M absolutely positive Goodell would have lowered the suspension to maybe 2 games. This situation rests on Brady's shoulders more than the furer's shoulders IMHO.

There wouldn't even have been a situation if the NFL hadn't changed the rule on how footballs are handled... because Peyton Manning wanted it changed.

[Tombstone RJ]

I won't be surprised with either result. I think Berman HATES what/how the NFL has done what it has done, but the law is pretty strong for the NFL. But Berman is pretty pro-labor, and if he isn't going to throw out this arbitration ruling, then there practically is no arbitration ruling that CAN be thrown out.

I suspects he overturns the NFL, vacating the suspension, and relies primarily on fundamental fairness (refusal to allow Pash to testify). If he really wants to go hog-wild, he could go on and on about Goodell's obviously lack of neutrality, which he can argue (though I doubt case law supports) means he is entitled to less deference than an arbitrator might get in other situations.

You can trust that the opinion is largely written already, and that whoever loses will definitely appeal. If Brady wins, the NFL appeal has a reasonable chance of succeeding at the Second Circuit. If the NFL wins, Brady's appeal is VERY UNLIKELY to succeed at the Second Circuit.

Note that I wouldn't bet a nickel on which way Berman will go. I suspect he WANTS to rule for Brady, but he might not find a way to comfortably do so, given how slanted the law is in the NFL's favor.

If Berman does this, Goodell can appeal. If Goodell appeals it will take months to resolve. The question is, can Brady still play or are the suspensions upheld?

[Tombstone RJ]

There wouldn't even have been a situation if the NFL hadn't changed the rule on how footballs are handled... because Peyton Manning wanted it changed.

I agree, and if you look at the pats turnover ratio before and after this rule change, it's significant which tells me Brady has been doing this stuff for YEARRRRRS!

There's no one stat that affects wins and losses more than turnovers. The Broncos, KC and the Pats all play in outdoor stadiums, look at the Pats turnover ratio compared to the Broncos and KC's turnover ratios since the rule change.

[Amnorix]

If Berman does this, Goodell can appeal. If Goodell appeals it will take months to resolve. The question is, can Brady still play or are the suspensions upheld?


If Berman vacates the suspension, then it is gone. The NFL can then either appeal the ruling to the 2nd Circuit (which it is 99% likely to do), or follow some other course, such as no appeal, and move on (0.00000000000000001% chance of this) or try to fix the procedural mistakes and "do it again" in some fashion.

It would be pretty bright of them, I think, to turn to a neutral arbitrator (Tagliabue?) and have him handle it. Unlikely, however, given that the NFL is constantly engaged in proving they have the biggest dick, err, hammer, in town.

In this scenario, Brady will still be able to play until Berman's ruling is overturned or superceded in some fashion.

Worst case for Brady/Pats, is that the suspension is vacated, but then ends up only being delayed, and then gets imposed in December or in the playoffs or something. Nightmare result there.

[Tombstone RJ]

If Berman vacates the suspension, then it is gone. The NFL can then either appeal the ruling to the 2nd Circuit (which it is 99% likely to do), or follow some other course, such as no appeal, and move on (0.00000000000000001% chance of this) or try to fix the procedural mistakes and "do it again" in some fashion.

It would be pretty bright of them, I think, to turn to a neutral arbitrator (Tagliabue?) and have him handle it. Unlikely, however, given that the NFL is constantly engaged in proving they have the biggest dick, err, hammer, in town.

In this scenario, Brady will still be able to play until Berman's ruling is overturned or superceded in some fashion.

Worst case for Brady/Pats, is that the suspension is vacated, but then ends up only being delayed, and then gets imposed in December or in the playoffs or something. Nightmare result there.

Are you sure about this? I thought Goodell can simply uphold the suspension regardless how the court rules which is another reason that this dumbass judge should have never taken the case.

[Amnorix]

I agree, and if you look at the pats turnover ratio before and after this rule change, it's significant which tells me Brady has been doing this stuff for YEARRRRRS!


Except the stats you refer to aren't nearly as odd as that one article suggested, and, second, Jastrzemski is actually pretty new to handling the balls.

Plus all the evidence suggests that this whole inflation thing only blew up (pun intended) after the JEts game when the refs inflated the ball to 16 or whatever PSI.

There's no one stat that affects wins and losses more than turnovers. The Broncos, KC and the Pats all play in outdoor stadiums, look at the Pats turnover ratio compared to the Broncos and KC's turnover ratios since the rule change.

I've never seen a coach harsher on players who fumble. Ridley's fumble rate wasn't even that bad, but he was repeatedly benched for it, and then ridden out of town.

[Amnorix]

Are you sure about this? I thought Goodell can simply uphold the suspension regardless how the court rules which is another reason that this dumbass judge should have never taken the case.


Ugh. I deleted my post mocking you because you changed yours.

First, the judge can't NOT take the case. He doesn't get to just not take cases. Only the SCOTUS can do that.

Second, yes, I'm sure about this. Goodell could revisit the process and try to fix the procedure and possibly fix the issues that Berman cites, but if the penalty is vacated, then it's gone, and Goodell is sort of back to square one.
Or he can (and almost certainly will) appeal to the Second Circuit.

[Tombstone RJ]

Except the stats you refer to aren't nearly as odd as that one article suggested, and, second, Jastrzemski is actually pretty new to handling the balls.

Plus all the evidence suggests that this whole inflation thing only blew up (pun intended) after the JEts game when the refs inflated the ball to 16 or whatever PSI.



I've never seen a coach harsher on players who fumble. Ridley's fumble rate wasn't even that bad, but he was repeatedly benched for it, and then ridden out of town.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Fumble-Chart-1.png

[Tombstone RJ]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Fumble-Chart-4.png

[Tombstone RJ]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/NEW-Fumble-Chart-1.png

[Tombstone RJ]

Here's an article explaining some stuff, of course, a Pats fan refutes it and then another guy at the end of the article backs up the stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-triggers-stat-spat-as-analysts-attempt-to-solve-why-patriots-don-t-fumble-003107565-nfl.html

[Red Dawg]

That old battle axe Berman better stick to the law and the ruling of the Supreme Court in 2001 and rule for NFL. Brady should not be allowed to cry and whine his way onto the field. 20 other players are doing their time like men. So should he.

[Tombstone RJ]

Ugh. I deleted my post mocking you because you changed yours.

First, the judge can't NOT take the case. He doesn't get to just not take cases. Only the SCOTUS can do that.

Second, yes, I'm sure about this. Goodell could revisit the process and try to fix the procedure and possibly fix the issues that Berman cites, but if the penalty is vacated, then it's gone, and Goodell is sort of back to square one.
Or he can (and almost certainly will) appeal to the Second Circuit.

The case had been decided by an arbitrator so yes, my understanding is the judge could have said, in essence, the case has already been decided by an arbitrator.

Please note: First, he actually decided to take the case on. That's rare enough when dueling parties have previously contractually agreed to allow disputes to be handled by arbitration. But rather than punting the case immediately, as I and other legal analysts figured would happen, Berman has tolerated multiple briefings and hearings, with more to come.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13479971/fooled-judge-deflategate-case-nfl-win-end-new-england-patriots-tom-brady

[bdj23]

Tom Brady Sketch Artist Gets Second Chance In Court

https://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/brady1.jpg?w=620&h=349&crop=1

Looks like Joe Buck

[Bewbies]

Looks like Joe Buck

Here to hoping the judge tells Brady to Joe Buck himself.

[Amnorix]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/NEW-Fumble-Chart-1.png


So why aren't you suggesting that the Colts and Falcons are cheating, based on this chart?

[Tombstone RJ]

So why aren't you suggesting that the Colts and Falcons are cheating, based on this chart?

Those are dome teams you idiot.

[Amnorix]

That old battle axe Berman better stick to the law and the ruling of the Supreme Court in 2001 and rule for NFL. Brady should not be allowed to cry and whine his way onto the field. 20 other players are doing their time like men. So should he.


Are you still waiting for the trial that he will conduct afterwards??

[TLO]

I literally couldn't care less.

[Mr. Laz]

You know they will rule in favor of Brady and a Union.


rules don't apply to professional football players


Even murders are running at about 25% iirc

[JakeLV]

So why aren't you suggesting that the Colts and Falcons are cheating, based on this chart?

Indoor... home... teams.... You know? Temperature controlled?

[Just Passin' By]

IF Brady had just cooperated and not destroyed evidence, I'M absolutely positive Goodell would have lowered the suspension to maybe 2 games. This situation rests on Brady's shoulders more than the furer's shoulders IMHO.

Bullshit.

[Amnorix]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Fumble-Chart-4.png


This chart is completely worthless. It doesn't track fumbles, but rather fumbles LOST. Because the lucky bounce of who gets a fumble really matters for purposes of seeing whether the ball was monkeyed with. Yeah...no.

It would be good to know if that stat is just counting offensive plays (where the Patriots controlled the ball) versus special teams plays (where they do not), but we have no idea.

It also doesn't seem to factor in fumbles at home (where McNally and the needle supposed lived) versus the road (where he did not, and where the Patriots have less control over their environment. More on this in a subsequent post.

[Brock]

I don't see how the judge has any reason to interfere in this dispute.

[Dave Lane]

I can. The NFLPA negotiated the current CBA and agreed to give the commissioner the power he has. He used that power, the NFLPA is now trying to argue against the CBA they agreed to.

IMO, he'll throw it out, maintaining Brady's suspension.

If there is no proof of any guilt can he just use his power willy nilly?

[Amnorix]

Those are dome teams you idiot.


Right, because dome teams clearly fumble less at home. Oh wait, except they don't. (You idiot).


Teams generally fumble slightly more often at home than on the road because they get to run more plays at home than on the road. As for the cold weather in Foxborough playing a role, the following sample of home and road dome and bad-weather teams shows little rhyme or reason for home-road splits.

Home-road fumble splits for selected teams (2012-2014)

Team Conditions Home Fumbles Road Fumbles
Saints Dome 17 20
Falcons Dome 24 14
Colts Retractable Roof 36 21
Rams Dome 30 27
Browns Bad Weather 25 15
Bills Bad Weather 35 31
Packers Tundra 22 20
Patriots Bad Weather 21 20
NFL Average Varying 26.0 24.2
Football Outsiders

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

[Amnorix]

Another point re fumble stats:

Note One: Fumble totals are small.

The average offense fumbles 16.55 times per season, or just over once per game. Small numbers are statistically finicky in a number of ways. They are heavily distortion-prone, for example. The difference between the fourth-least fumble-prone team over the last three seasons (the Browns, with 41 fumbles) and the 20th (the Bears, with 50) is nine fumbles: an average of three per season. Imagine all of the factors that can affect a three-fumble-per-year swing—a third-string quarterback in the huddle, one or two extreme-weather games, a tough division, etc.—and you realize that you must treat the data gingerly.


So I can give you ONE good reason why the Patriots fumble less -- Tom Brady (other than 2008) basically never missed a snap, and he's amazingly elusive in the pocket. He rarely fumbles, and the Patriots are really good on the C-QB and QB-RB exchanges. The consistency of having him there alone help explain (partly) the low fumble rate.

Which is also reflected in Indy's good fumble rates in the chart above. It's less the DOME, and more the existence (and consistent ability to show up) of one PEYTON MANNING. Falcons and Ryan, and Saints/Brees, is similar. It also explains why the Jaguars, Vikings, and other great weather and/or Dome teams AREN'T on the list.

[Amnorix]

Wow, didn't know this:

The January study looks damning: It shows the Patriots as a far-fringe statistical outlier. But the Sharp study has several problems. One of them has already been hinted at: Using "plays per fumble" as a metric mathematically magnifies tiny changes in very volatile data. But there is a much simpler problem: The Sharp study eliminated dome teams before collecting the data!

Eliminating dome teams compensates for any impact weather might have on fumble tendencies. It also eliminates the Saints, probably the most Patriots-like team of the last decade in every way except climate. The Saints have been contenders with stable, high-quality coaching and quarterback play for most of the last six seasons. Not coincidentally, their fumble rates have been lower than the Patriots' rates over the last three years.

The Falcons, another team with stable quarterback play and coaching for several recent seasons, are also chopped off the back of any study that eliminates dome teams. Assuming Lucas Oil Stadium is considered a dome because of its retractable roof, some signature Peyton Manning seasons were also excluded from the mix.

Such omissions would make sense if domed stadiums had a major impact on fumble totals. That is not the case, as one of the earlier tables illustrated. The Saints, notorious for massive home-road splits, fumbled 17 times at home in the last three years, 20 times on the road. The Falcons fumbled 24 times at home, 14 times on the road. The Lions, who mix dome home games with annual trips to places like Chicago and Green Bay, fumbled 31 times at home in the last three years, 28 times on the road. The Rams, who are likely to deal with extreme heat, damp conditions or nerve-racking crowd noise in NFC West road games, fumbled 30 times at home, 27 times on the road in the last three seasons.

Weather has, at most, a tiny impact on fumble totals. Sack rates and the presence of a backup quarterback in the lineup have much greater impact. Any attempt to isolate Tom Brady's fumble tendencies that excludes Drew Brees, Matt Ryan and several seasons of Peyton Manning is going to include some massive built-in distortions.

[TEX]

So sick of Tom Brady and the Patriots...

[Amnorix]

Last one.

To get a sense of how all of these forces interact, compare the 2012 to 2014 Patriots to the 2012 to 2014 Bengals. The Patriots have had eight fewer fumbles than the Bengals in three seasons; the Bengals surrender 1.54 fumbles per 100 plays, near the middle of the pack and .35 fewer fumbles per 100 plays than the Patriots. Andy Dalton has started all 48 games in three years, though backups Bruce Gradkowski and Jason Campbell managed to squeeze in two fumbles in extremely limited playing time. Dalton is no Brady, but he holds on to the football. Bengals quarterbacks only suffered one fumble per seven sacks. The Bengals also protect Dalton well. He and his subs have suffered just 98 sacks in three seasons. Bengals quarterbacks only fumble 0.45 times per 100 plays, a lower rate than Brady and the Patriots.

The Bengals are a perennial playoff team that plays in a somewhat-cold-weather city in a cold-weather division. Their fumble rates are similar to the Patriots' rates because their quarterback is usually healthy and well protected. The eight-fumble difference in three years starts to shrink when you look at who is doing the fumbling.

The same thing happens when the Patriots are compared to the Ravens, who have an even lower fumble rate. It happens when the Patriots are compared to the Saints and Falcons, except that weather can be cited as a greater factor. It even happens in comparison to the Packers and Panthers, a pair of teams that have had to rely on backup quarterbacks in recent years but still have fumble rates comparable to the Patriots'. The Patriots' fumble rate is no outlier. It's part of a cluster of quality teams with stable quarterback situations. The Patriots just have more quality and stability than every other team of our generation.

[Tombstone RJ]

This chart is completely worthless. It doesn't track fumbles, but rather fumbles LOST. Because the lucky bounce of who gets a fumble really matters for purposes of seeing whether the ball was monkeyed with. Yeah...no.

It would be good to know if that stat is just counting offensive plays (where the Patriots controlled the ball) versus special teams plays (where they do not), but we have no idea.

It also doesn't seem to factor in fumbles at home (where McNally and the needle supposed lived) versus the road (where he did not, and where the Patriots have less control over their environment. More on this in a subsequent post.

wtf are you talking about? You have to fumble the ball to begin with in order to lose the ball by fumbling. The fact that the pats are the ONLY TEAM to play 50% of their games in Foxboro is enough evidence of something fishy going on.

[Tombstone RJ]

Right, because dome teams clearly fumble less at home. Oh wait, except they don't. (You idiot).




Home-road fumble splits for selected teams (2012-2014)

Team Conditions Home Fumbles Road Fumbles
Saints Dome 17 20
Falcons Dome 24 14
Colts Retractable Roof 36 21
Rams Dome 30 27
Browns Bad Weather 25 15
Bills Bad Weather 35 31
Packers Tundra 22 20
Patriots Bad Weather 21 20
NFL Average Varying 26.0 24.2
Football Outsiders

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

That's a two year sample size. TWO YEARS.

[Tombstone RJ]

Wow, didn't know this:

Where is the link for this quote?

[Tombstone RJ]

Last one.

Where are you getting this info. from?

[TEX]

Another point re fumble stats:




So I can give you ONE good reason why the Patriots fumble less -- Tom Brady (other than 2008) basically never missed a snap, and he's amazingly elusive in the pocket. He rarely fumbles, and the Patriots are really good on the C-QB and QB-RB exchanges. The consistency of having him there alone help explain (partly) the low fumble rate.

Which is also reflected in Indy's good fumble rates in the chart above. It's less the DOME, and more the existence (and consistent ability to show up) of one PEYTON MANNING. Falcons and Ryan, and Saints/Brees, is similar. It also explains why the Jaguars, Vikings, and other great weather and/or Dome teams AREN'T on the list.

:facepalm:

[Coochie liquor]

I'm in Judge Bermans fantasy league, and he just drafted Brady. A sign??

[TEX]

I'm in Judge Bermans fantasy league, and he just drafted Brady. A sign??

:clap: :LOL:

[MagicHef]

Teams generally fumble slightly more often at home than on the road because they get to run more plays at home than on the road.

Amnorix, can you read this sentence and tell me if it makes any sense to you?

[Amnorix]

Where is the link for this quote?

Where are you getting this info. from?


All the same source as the first quote, sorry.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mble-advantage



And yes, only two years, but the most RECENT two years. Not like they cherry-picked data and presetned it in misleading fashion, like the Patriots-are-cheaters-look-at-this-chart site did.

Counting special teams play fumbles?! WTF?

[Amnorix]

Amnorix, can you read this sentence and tell me if it makes any sense to you?


Nope, it doesn't make any sense to me.


EDIT: Maybe teams average more snaps in home games than road games? That might be true. I have no idea... I wouldn't think it would be enough snaps to be statistically significant, but who knows.

[Ming the Merciless]

So sick of Tom Brady and the Patriots...

Maybe you should create a fake 'scandal' and get them penalized so they have a harder time rapeing everyone...

Oh Wai...

[Red Dawg]

Tugging Brady has no case. He was treated just like every other player. Effing bullshit.

[Amnorix]

Tugging Brady has no case. He was treated just like every other player. Effing bullshit.


Bullshit.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for equipment violations.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for failure to cooperate in an investigation.


That right there is actually a huge part of my problem with this. The Commish engages in cowboy justice, doing whatever the fuq he wants to whoever the fuq he wants for whatever fuqqing reason he wants. It's absurd.

[MagicHef]

Nope, it doesn't make any sense to me.


EDIT: Maybe teams average more snaps in home games than road games? That might be true. I have no idea... I wouldn't think it would be enough snaps to be statistically significant, but who knows.

They may have more snaps at home, but this guy is saying that fumbles happen at a higher rate because there are more snaps. That makes no sense.

Did you notice that the sentence that makes no sense was a quote from one of your posts? Does it concern you that the people you are quoting in your defense apparently are numbskulls who don't understand the difference between rates and occurrences, a distinction that is crucial to the topic at hand?

[jspchief]

Bullshit.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for equipment violations.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for failure to cooperate in an investigation.


That right there is actually a huge part of my problem with this. The Commish engages in cowboy justice, doing whatever the fuq he wants to whoever the fuq he wants for whatever fuqqing reason he wants. It's absurd.You've turned into a huge douchebag. I pray that someone changes your name again so you can stomp off in another fit.

[Mr. Laz]

Tugging Brady has no case. He was treated just like every other player. Effing bullshit.

judges have sided with Unions on almost every case, they don't give a single shit about the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Remember that judge forcing that kid in Texas to marry his girlfriend?


Completely against the law but Judges just do whatever they feel like

[jspchief]

judges have sided with Unions on almost ever case, they don't give a single shit about the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Remember that judge forcing that kid to marry his girlfriend. Completely against the law but Judges just do whatever they feel like
Yep. This is this guy's ultimate chance at the spotlight. Don't be surprised if he uses it as a soapbox.

[Mr. Laz]

Bullshit.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for equipment violations.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for failure to cooperate in an investigation.


That right there is actually a huge part of my problem with this. The Commish engages in cowboy justice, doing whatever the fuq he wants to whoever the fuq he wants for whatever fuqqing reason he wants. It's absurd.

No more than the Douchbag Patriot Nation

do whatever they want, whenever want ... everyone can fuck off

Brady gutless coward
Front office covers his ass with bullshit lies
Entire fan base bleeds all over the place making up shit whenever it's convenience

Deflator name is from losing weight, complete bullshit
Brady doesn't know equipment managers, complete bullshit
Brady doesn't know what PSI is, total bullshit
Equipment managers wouldn't touch the footballs without specific approval from their QB

all this is more than enough circumstantial evidence to know Brady cheated


Aaron Hernandez was sent to jail for life on less


the judge will reverse the entire suspension ... i just hope karma is watching and Brady blows out his knee on the 1st snap of the season

[Mr. Flopnuts]

I can. The NFLPA negotiated the current CBA and agreed to give the commissioner the power he has. He used that power, the NFLPA is now trying to argue against the CBA they agreed to.

IMO, he'll throw it out, maintaining Brady's suspension.

And if he doesn't, the owners should rip up the CBA and negotiate something better suited for them since the players side doesn't feel the need to follow it. Look at Kam Chancellor in Seattle as exhibit B.

[Brock]

judges have sided with Unions on almost every case, they don't give a single shit about the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Remember that judge forcing that kid in Texas to marry his girlfriend?


Completely against the law but Judges just do whatever they feel like

This is the third time you've brought this up. The judge told the guy he could serve his sentence for punching his girlfriend's ex boyfriend, or he could marry her and they'd forget the whole thing. Both the "kid" and his girlfriend were happy about it. Quit being stupid.

[TLO]

This is like an Alex Smith thread, but in drag.

[Reerun_KC]

If Brady wins, the Goddell sympathizing Brady hating meltdowns will be priceless.

[ClevelandBronco]

Bullshit.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for equipment violations.

No player in NFL HISTORY was ever suspended for failure to cooperate in an investigation.


That right there is actually a huge part of my problem with this. The Commish engages in cowboy justice, doing whatever the fuq he wants to whoever the fuq he wants for whatever fuqqing reason he wants. It's absurd.

That's the double truth, Ruth.

[BucEyedPea]

Anyone claiming the CBA gives Goodell all this power to do what he did and blah, blah, blah.... didn't read Kessler's brief. Goodell violated the CBA in many places. As usual, the devil is in the details.

There was not even enough circumstantial evidence on Brady even—not when other multiple scenarios are possible to explain points and there's even evidence Brady insisted the rule be followed regarding psi minimums. BUT this case is on the process including whether Goodell followed the CBA himself or used arbitraries.

[Dave Lane]

And if he doesn't, the owners should rip up the CBA and negotiate something better suited for them since the players side doesn't feel the need to follow it. Look at Kam Chancellor in Seattle as exhibit B.

You think the commish should be able to suspend anyone for any reason with no evidence? Is that your position?

[Red Dawg]

You think the commish should be able to suspend anyone for any reason with no evidence? Is that your position?

No evidence? What a joke. The commish only needs reasonable suspicion and there was more than enough evidence to support that much at least for sure.

Brady is hiding something for sure and he deserves his suspension.

[MagicHef]

You think the commish should be able to suspend anyone for any reason with no evidence? Is that your position?

No, the level of proof needed to punish someone by the CBA is a preponderance of evidence. That's what the NFLPA agreed to. The case against Brady reached that level.

[BucEyedPea]

No, the level of proof needed to punish someone by the CBA is a preponderance of evidence. That's what the NFLPA agreed to. The case against Brady reached that level.

No it didn't. Not all lawyers even agree that it did. Another problem is that the Wells investigation was not independent and the judge saw that too. The Well's Report read like an advocacy paper for the NFL and was even edited by someone on NFL's staff. All signs point to lack of independence.

This court case is not about Brady's innocence or guilt but about the process.

[GloryDayz]

I think if Brady wins, CP should ban all current and future Pats fans without warning or explanation. The Pats are everything that's wrong with the current NFL, and knowing that few teams, especially the Chiefs, will stoop to their level, having gloating fans from a team with such low moral character should be means for dismissal.

I've never called for any sort of mass banning like that, but in this case it's obvious Brady is lying, so there's no reason to do our best with sending them back to their own reach-around blog to stroke one another with yet another moral infraction that will go unpunished.

And I'd be happy if the NFL chose to see all those holds they've magically missed over the past few years. There's a hold on every play, there's no denying that, the NFL would do itself a favor by seeing them all in Brady's first four games. So, don't make stuff up, that's immoral, but there's nothing wrong with focusing on the plight of the Divine for four games.

And the Pats four losses while they hand Brady four checks, and that might be karma in action...

I know, it won't ever happen....

[Pasta Little Brioni]

This chart is completely worthless. It doesn't track fumbles, but rather fumbles LOST. Because the lucky bounce of who gets a fumble really matters for purposes of seeing whether the ball was monkeyed with. Yeah...no.

It would be good to know if that stat is just counting offensive plays (where the Patriots controlled the ball) versus special teams plays (where they do not), but we have no idea.

It also doesn't seem to factor in fumbles at home (where McNally and the needle supposed lived) versus the road (where he did not, and where the Patriots have less control over their environment. More on this in a subsequent post.

You have become a joke of a poster. It's sad really. So fucking obvious your team has cheated for a decade and you just continue to make up bullshit excuses every day.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Anyone claiming the CBA gives Goodell all this power to do what he did and blah, blah, blah.... didn't read Kessler's brief. Goodell violated the CBA in many places. As usual, the devil is in the details.

There was not even enough circumstantial evidence on Brady even—not when other multiple scenarios are possible to explain points and there's even evidence Brady insisted the rule be followed regarding psi minimums. BUT this case is on the process including whether Goodell followed the CBA himself or used arbitraries.

Bullshit. Bandwagon trash.

[TEX]

You have become a joke of a poster. It's sad really. So ****ing obvious your team has cheated for a decade and you just continue to make up bullshit excuses every day.

This...
I used to respect his takes. Not anymore. Total Biased Patriot Hack now.

[GloryDayz]

I say ban them. Hell I don't say that about Donk fans, but this is different. That team, and their fans, need to be marginalized at every possible turn.

[jspchief]

Anyone claiming the CBA gives Goodell all this power to do what he did and blah, blah, blah.... didn't read Kessler's brief. Goodell violated the CBA in many places. As usual, the devil is in the details.

There was not even enough circumstantial evidence on Brady even—not when other multiple scenarios are possible to explain points and there's even evidence Brady insisted the rule be followed regarding psi minimums. BUT this case is on the process including whether Goodell followed the CBA himself or used arbitraries.
Go away, cunt

[BucEyedPea]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMOUB4YUcAAyC9J.png

[BucEyedPea]

Go away, ****

Guess I'll have to post more in here then.

[BucEyedPea]

And the Pats four losses while they hand Brady four checks, and that might be karma in action...



Jimmy Garoppolo played great in the preseason. He looks like he could handle the game should Brady still be suspended. It wouldn't be bad outcome if he won all four of the first games or even three. The haters would completely meltdown.

Even if the Judge sides with the NFL he could still deliver a blistering rebuke to the NFL.

[jspchief]

Guess I'll have to post more in here then.
I'm sure you're quite accustomed to not being wanted by now.

[CanadaKC]

Leave all the legal jargon out of it, and all the "Free Brady" idiots…and Brady is guilty as sin. Case closed.

[TEX]

Jimmy Garoppolo played great in the preseason. He looks like he could handle the game should Brady still be suspended. It wouldn't be bad outcome if he won all four of the first games or even three. The haters would completely meltdown.

Even if the Judge sides with the NFL he could still deliver a blistering rebuke to the NFL.

ROFL Because playing part of 3 PRESEASON games means he's ready for the regular season... I PRAY we get the chance to find out.

[Amnorix]

You've turned into a huge douchebag. I pray that someone changes your name again so you can stomp off in another fit.


I have? The post you're responding to had some basic facts. Sorry if posting facts about the railroad job here makes me a D-bag in your mind.

Look, the NFL ran a terrible process, and then imposed a punishment completely out of line with anything they had ever done before. It's all kinda ridiculous. And they did it to the best player my team has EVER had, or will ever have. You don't think you'd defend your guy too? Yeah, right.

[Amnorix]

Aaron Hernandez was sent to jail for life on less



errr...what?

[Amnorix]

This...
I used to respect his takes. Not anymore. Total Biased Patriot Hack now.


And if Judge Berman, a federal judgej in New York City, overturns Brady's suspension, is he a "total biased Patriot hack" too?

[TEX]

And if Judge Berman, a federal judgej in New York City, overturns Brady's suspension, is he a "total biased Patriot hack" too?

No, but you are regardless, as are most chowd heads on this issue. The more Brady fights it and all u goofs defend him, the worse all of you look. Its called having integrity and honor, both of which are not associated with your Super Bowl titles. Perhaps if that wasn't the case, you would understand. That's the true meaning of "The "Patriot Way."

[jspchief]

And if Judge Berman, a federal judgej in New York City, overturns Brady's suspension, is he a "total biased Patriot hack" too?
Is he supposed to be ruling on Brady's guilt or innocence? Didn't think so.

[Amnorix]

Is he supposed to be ruling on Brady's guilt or innocence? Didn't think so.


He is ruling on the same thing I have been discussing in this thread -- other than the whole fumble nonsense side discussion -- the validity of Brady's suspension.

[jspchief]

I have? The post you're responding to had some basic facts. Sorry if posting facts about the railroad job here makes me a D-bag in your mind.

Look, the NFL ran a terrible process, and then imposed a punishment completely out of line with anything they had ever done before. It's all kinda ridiculous. And they did it to the best player my team has EVER had, or will ever have. You don't think you'd defend your guy too? Yeah, right.
I could go on a long rant about all the ways you're being a douche on this topic, but you're a smart guy and already know.

Congratulations on becoming a caricature.

[Amnorix]

I could go on a long rant about all the ways you're being a douche on this topic, but you're a smart guy and already know.

Congratulations on becoming a caricature.


Imagine if the greatest player on your favorite team ever was having his reputation ruined over the most ridiculous of minor infractions, where the evidence that it happened was thin, and the evidence that HE knew about it was basically non-existent.

Imagine your reaction.

Did he know, assuming they did it (which I think is likely)? Maybe. But there isn't any actual EVIDENCE that he knew. And yet the NFL drops a major hammer on him, and basically brands him a cheater. It's pretty ridiculous.

[Katipan]

Imagine a world where the greatest player of your favorite team turned out to be such a spoiled douchebag that the public stopped caring about his golden aura.

[Chiefnj2]

Did he know, assuming they did it (which I think is likely)? Maybe. But there isn't any actual EVIDENCE that he knew. And yet the NFL drops a major hammer on him, and basically brands him a cheater. It's pretty ridiculous.

You think it is likely the ball "boys" altered the footballs, yet you think they did it on their own without any directives or feedback from Brady as to how he likes his footballs? What do you think "deflator" meant?

[Red Dawg]

And if Judge Berman, a federal judgej in New York City, overturns Brady's suspension, is he a "total biased Patriot hack" too?

No, he'll just be an idiot because the higher court will over turn his ruling.

Bottom line is this once again. Goodell was given the power by the owners to do everything he has done plain and simple. If this stupid judge ignores that then he is not thinking clearly. He may believe Brady 100% but that is not what he is asked to rule on. It's procedure in the appeals hearing. Brady got what the exact same treatment as other players but he is just a whiny bitch.

[Red Dawg]

You think it is likely the ball "boys" altered the footballs, yet you think they did it on their own without any directives or feedback from Brady as to how he likes his footballs? What do you think "deflator" meant?

Exactly. Pats fans just don't care about right and wrong. Unless there is a video of Brady doing it himself, he's not guilty.

Of course he had an idea of what they were doing. It's not reasonable to think otherwise.

[Amnorix]

You think it is likely the ball "boys" altered the footballs, yet you think they did it on their own without any directives or feedback from Brady as to how he likes his footballs? What do you think "deflator" meant?


It's entirely possible Brady said "as low as possible" or whatever, without saying "hey, needle the balls after the refs clear them".

In one scenario (where Brady knows) it's plausible deniability. In another (where he doesn't know), the ball boys go one step too far getting him what they think he wants. I think either possibility is very possible.

But everyone assumes the first, so Brady's reputation is trashed, even though he may honestly have never known or thought that they would needle the balls AFTER the refs approved them.

Whatever. I'm done arguing his innocence, or lack thereof. Nobody is changing their mind on that at this point.

[BucEyedPea]

ROFL Because playing part of 3 PRESEASON games means he's ready for the regular season... I PRAY we get the chance to find out.

No I know the preseason isn't the true test. Still, it's not a bad thing to see him play due to Brady's age.

[BucEyedPea]

Exactly. Pats fans just don't care about right and wrong. Unless there is a video of Brady doing it himself, he's not guilty.

Of course he had an idea of what they were doing. It's not reasonable to think otherwise.

Yeah, that's why Pat's fans defended Aaron Hernandez to the death.LMAO

[Garcia Bronco]

This is all bullshit and bluster. There is nothing that happens to the Patriot managed balls that Brady doesn't want. He's been cheating for years. McDaniels is a known cheater and so is BB. Regardless of what comes of this mess...that will be the story of the Patriots. Enjoy.

[GloryDayz]

Imagine if the greatest player on your favorite team ever was having his reputation ruined over the most ridiculous of minor infractions, where the evidence that it happened was thin, and the evidence that HE knew about it was basically non-existent.

Imagine your reaction.

Did he know, assuming they did it (which I think is likely)? Maybe. But there isn't any actual EVIDENCE that he knew. And yet the NFL drops a major hammer on him, and basically brands him a cheater. It's pretty ridiculous.

One has to wonder why you don't spend all your time on a Pats blog where you don't spend 99% of your time admitting that there was an infraction, then claiming that your God should be labeled "accurately" as a cheater.

Is the Pats blog that boring, or are you sent out to spread the lies and inaccuracies that the smallest amount fo common sense shows otherwise?

All I can say is that you (and all openly Pats fans) can thank your lucky stars that I'm not a Mod if they rule in favor of Tom. You'd at least have to start over from scratch on this board.

[TEX]

Imagine a world where the greatest player of your favorite team turned out to be such a spoiled douchebag that the public stopped caring about his golden aura.

:clap:

A "Spoiled - CHEATING Douchebag" who thinks he's ABOVE the rules, admits he probably didn't fully cooperate in an investigation, then wastes everyone's time trying to use his power to get away with cheating.

[Tombstone RJ]

All the same source as the first quote, sorry.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mble-advantage



And yes, only two years, but the most RECENT two years. Not like they cherry-picked data and presetned it in misleading fashion, like the Patriots-are-cheaters-look-at-this-chart site did.

Counting special teams play fumbles?! WTF?

This link does not go to the article you are quoting and anyone who uses bleacher report to back up their argument has already lost the argument. I'm guessing the moron who wrote this bleacher report article is a pats fan.

TWO YEARS IS BY DEFINITION CHERRY PICKING. The data I showed you is over 10+ years. Hey moron, the more data someone uses to prove a point, the stronger the evidence becomes.

[Reerun_KC]

ROFL Because playing part of 3 PRESEASON games means he's ready for the regular season... I PRAY we get the chance to find out.

That sounds about as stupid as our fanbase when it comes to Daniels.

[TEX]

That sounds about as stupid as our fanbase when it comes to Daniels.

I think not, even though Daniels has only started two regular season games, he's been in the league 3 X as long and has a greater body of work. No? Pay more attention to the last sentence. That's the main thing.

[Amnorix]

One has to wonder why you don't spend all your time on a Pats blog where you don't spend 99% of your time admitting that there was an infraction, then claiming that your God should be labeled "accurately" as a cheater.


:shrug: To torture you?


Is the Pats blog that boring, or are you sent out to spread the lies and inaccuracies that the smallest amount fo common sense shows otherwise?

To torture you.


All I can say is that you (and all openly Pats fans) can thank your lucky stars that I'm not a Mod if they rule in favor of Tom. You'd at least have to start over from scratch on this board.


That's probably why you're not a mod then, right?

[Amnorix]

Actually, FWIW, the real reason I came here -- over 12 years ago now -- was to engage in debates in what now is the DC forum. Back then it wasn't really a separate forum. I didn't love or hate the Chiefs, and this seemed like a lively board, and the political viewpoints were very different from mine, so here I landed.

I note that I am much less liberal than I was then, and also less active in the DC Forum. But I have no problem arguing with alot of people, and holding a minority position. That's really why I came here in the first place.

Much to your dismay, apparently.

But you're a n00b, so who cares about you. :p

[BucEyedPea]

I'm surprised to see you indulging in sweeping generalizations based on innuendo or whispering campaigns with no facts to back up Brady cheating for years. I can see McDaniels though.

This is all bullshit and bluster. There is nothing that happens to the Patriot managed balls that Brady doesn't want. He's been cheating for years. McDaniels is a known cheater and so is BB. Regardless of what comes of this mess...that will be the story of the Patriots. Enjoy.

Former Quarterback and QB coach Chris Simms claimed BB is a real stickler on the rules, knows them better than a lawyer and has stopped players from participating in anything that can be construed as cheating even if they just bet between themselves.

Simms worked briefly for Bill; says Bill is a stickler for rules and very prideful about his job and sticking to the rulebook. Says Bill does everything by the book since the camera stuff happened. Says a lot of other teams were doing it and that Bill really only did it just to get back at the Jets for doing it when they were told not to, hence the Mangini ratting him out stuff

-Says that what Bill did may not have been against the rules anyway. The memo was sent out not to film but the actual rule didn't totally say that Bill couldn't film where he did. Simms still says it was wrong for Belichick to ignore the memo.

-Calls Belichick brilliant

[GloryDayz]

Actually, FWIW, the real reason I came here -- over 12 years ago now -- was to engage in debates in what now is the DC forum. Back then it wasn't really a separate forum. I didn't love or hate the Chiefs, and this seemed like a lively board, and the political viewpoints were very different from mine, so here I landed.

I note that I am much less liberal than I was then, and also less active in the DC Forum. But I have no problem arguing with alot of people, and holding a minority position. That's really why I came here in the first place.

Much to your dismay, apparently.

But you're a n00b, so who cares about you. :p

:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:

[jspchief]

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.

Or if you're a pats fan, try to argue that since none of us actually saw the animal, it must be a unicorn.

[beach tribe]

Yeah, that's why Pat's fans defended Aaron Hernandez to the death.LMAO

lol. Wow.

[Red Dawg]

Berman is going to be a big pussy and let Brady off the hook. He won't have the guts to stand by the legalities of the case. Bunch of bullshit. Every suspended player should go whine and cry to get their pay checks back.

[Mr. Laz]

Leave all the legal jargon out of it, and all the "Free Brady" idiots…and Brady is guilty as sin. Case closed.

I almost be willing to bet that the Judge doesn't give a single shit whether Brady is guilty or not.

Doesn't care about the negotiated legal document(CBA) that the union is trying to cheat around either.

When the NFL and NFLPA negotiated the CBA you can be assured that the NFLPA got something in return for the commissioners extra power. Now the union is trying to use the legal system to take the power back without exchanging anything for it.


Legal system just pisses me off lately, judges getting involved instead of just following the law and making a judgement. douchebags.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Defending the Pats to death on a Chief board ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

[Red Dawg]

The Supreme Court already laid down the law in these matters 15 years ago. Now we get to watch Berman be a complete idiot and ignore that. Brady is the biggest whiny bitch in sports. Effing stupid.

[GloryDayz]

I still think this should happen to all Pats fans on this board.

http://i.imgur.com/YQy5Z5s.gif

[tk13]

Bob McNair probably just got himself taken off Kraft's Christmas card list.

http://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2015/09/bob-mcnair-on-tom-brady-deflategate-i-dont-think-j-j-would-destroy-his-cell-phone/

Texans owner Bob McNair didn’t mince words when asked about the ongoing Deflategate saga involving suspended New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady.

In an interview with SportsRadio 610 on Tuesday following an annual team luncheon, McNair was critical of how the situation has dragged out.

“I think (the league) could have handled it better,” McNair said. “The Patriots could have handled it better, Brady could have handled it better. What escalated the whole thing is, Brady and the Patriots were going to cooperate fully, and then when it came down to it, they didn’t. That’s what really upset the commissioner.”

Brady and the NFL are now embroiled in a messy legal battle where a federal judge is urging them to reach a settlement. No agreement has been reached, though.

McNair said he doesn’t think Texans star defensive end J.J. Watt would have destroyed his cell phone if he’d been in a similar situation, as Brady suspiciously did, rather than cooperate fully with NFL investigators.

“I think if it was J.J. Watt, I think he would have been cooperative and it wouldn’t be a question,” McNair said. “I don’t think J.J. would destroy his cell phone. The whole idea is that we want to make sure we have a competitive playing field that’s level for everybody. We don’t want people breaking the rules.

[RobBlake]

The Supreme Court already laid down the law in these matters 15 years ago. Now we get to watch Berman be a complete idiot and ignore that. Brady is the biggest whiny bitch in sports. Effing stupid.

Nothing better than patriot haters that whine lol

[stevieray]

Actually, FWIW, the real reason I came here -- over 12 years ago now -- was to engage in debates in what now is the DC forum. Back then it wasn't really a separate forum. I didn't love or hate the Chiefs, and this seemed like a lively board, and the political viewpoints were very different from mine, so here I landed.

I note that I am much less liberal than I was then, and also less active in the DC Forum. But I have no problem arguing with alot of people, and holding a minority position. That's really why I came here in the first place.

Much to your dismay, apparently.

But you're a n00b, so who cares about you. :p

:hmmm:

[Lex Luthor]

It's entirely possible Brady said "as low as possible" or whatever, without saying "hey, needle the balls after the refs clear them".

In one scenario (where Brady knows) it's plausible deniability. In another (where he doesn't know), the ball boys go one step too far getting him what they think he wants. I think either possibility is very possible.

But everyone assumes the first, so Brady's reputation is trashed, even though he may honestly have never known or thought that they would needle the balls AFTER the refs approved them.

Whatever. I'm done arguing his innocence, or lack thereof. Nobody is changing their mind on that at this point.

This argument would be more convincing if Tom Brady hadn't initially acted like he had no idea what it means to deflate a football. It was exactly like Hillary Clinton's response when asked if she had wiped her email server. She said "You mean with a cloth?"

:facepalm:

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Will be a total travesty if the suspension is reduced. Slap in the face to every NFL fan outside of that shithole.

[FlaChief58]

Will be a total travesty if the suspension is reduced. Slap in the face to every NFL fan outside of that shithole.

I'll be shocked if he gets more than a 1 game suspension because Pat's

[Dave Lane]

Will be a total travesty if the suspension is reduced. Slap in the face to every NFL fan outside of that shithole.

Why? You like people convicted without any proof of guilt? Is that your idea?

[BigCatDaddy]

Why? You like people convicted without any proof of guilt? Is that your idea?

Pretty much. There is a 76 page thread here where a lot of people would look like blow hard dumbasses on this.

[unlurking]

Why? You like people convicted without any proof of guilt? Is that your idea?
I don't really care either way, but come on. Let's not act like he's an innocent man sitting on death row. His employer is dissatisfied with his on duty performance and is reprimanding him for it.

[Red Dawg]

Nothing better than patriot haters that whine lol

I am not a Patriot hater, I just think with all the money on the line in games for players that their should be a level playing field. To many years have gone bye where the Pats are constantly in the news for not being on the level. Coaches, players and clearly owners all feel this way. If the owners actually wanted this issue squashed then Roger would have done just that. Settled and gave in but obviously they want the Pats to change their way of thinking and knock off their shady bullshit. The balls were deflated and Brady is hiding something. They deserve be hammered and punished and it will be a real in justice if Brady does not serve some type of suspension.

Why should he get out of his suspension when other players don't?

[Lex Luthor]

Why? You like people convicted without any proof of guilt? Is that your idea?
"Convicted"?

I didn't realize Brady was facing actual jail time and that he had been convicted of a crime where the standard of evidence is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I thought this was a case where an employer was suspending an employee for not cooperating with an internal investigation.

[TEX]

Why? You like people convicted without any proof of guilt? Is that your idea?

ROFL Are you serious? Dude admitted that he did NOT cooperate to the fullest extent with the investigation, and THAT is in part why the suspension is so severe. Its not just about cheating...Then there's the whole, "Whoops, I destroyed my relatively new cell phone" thing.

I'm all for due process, but when there is a clear admission by the person in question that he did not cooperate as much as he could have in an investigation, which directly leads to the lack of due process because circumstantial evidence must then be more heavily weighted, then I don't have a problem with it at all. This is nothing more than attempt by the Brady team to manipulate the system and use rules that are in place to seek justice, to be manipulated in ways that prevent it; while at the same time, get people to think along the same lines as you are now. THAT tactic is far more scary than what you're suggesting.

[oldandslow]

I don't really care either way, but come on. Let's not act like he's an innocent man sitting on death row. His employer is dissatisfied with his on duty performance and is reprimanding him for it.

...and that employee certainly has the right to take the employer to court if they step over the line...

Which Tom Brady is doing.

I hate the Pats, but to trust in the commissioner's office of this league is a fool's errand.

[oldandslow]

ROFL Are you serious? Dude admitted that he did NOT cooperate to the fullest extent with the investigation, and THAT is in part why the suspension is so severe. Its not just about cheating...Then there's the whole, "Whoops, I destroyed my relatively new cell phone" thing.

I'm all for due process, but when there is a clear admission by the person in question that he did not cooperate as much as he could have in an investigation, which directly leads to the lack of due process because circumstantial evidence must then be more heavily weighted, then I don't have a problem with it at all. This is nothing more than attempt by the Brady team to manipulate the system and use rules that are in place to seek justice, to be manipulated in ways that prevent it; While at the same time, get people to think along the same lines as you are now. THAT tactic is far more scary than what you're suggesting.

Let's pretend that Tom has phone call's on there to a mistress. Would you trust the league to keep that quiet? Hell, I would destroy mine as well.

[BigCatDaddy]

...and that employee certainly has the right to take the employer to court if they step over the line...

Which Tom Brady is doing.

I hate the Pats, but to trust in the commissioner's office of this league is a fool's errand.

Exactly. Let the process play itself out.

[Amnorix]

Suspension VACATED!

[kcjayhawks5]

Fuck the NFL

[ChiliConCarnage]

whoa haha

[GoChargers]

Cheatriots fans' tears will be extra delicious when the NFL appeals and wins.

[Marcellus]

It's what should have happened. It was anbullshit case and the penalty was massively overstepping the rules in the CBA

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Suspension VACATED!

Fuck you

[Mr. Laz]

Suspension VACATED!

Not the same as innocent at all.

It just mean another judge siding with the players union no matter what.


look through this thread, knew it was coming


worthless sack of shit judges don't give a fuck about rules or legal documents, they just want to be liked by people

[GoChargers]

Berman is going to be a big pussy and let Brady off the hook. He won't have the guts to stand by the legalities of the case. Bunch of bullshit. Every suspended player should go whine and cry to get their pay checks back.

Berman is a union stooge, just like the clown in Minnesota.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC

[Amnorix]

Cheatriots fans' tears will be extra delicious when the NFL appeals and wins.


:LOL: It really depends on what Berman's order says. Suffice to say that the NFL has lost, AGAIN, when it comes to player discipline, because Goodell is out of control/insane.

It isn't just Judge Doty in Minnesota. It isn't ANOTHER federal judge in New York, it's even his own immediate predecessor as Commission. Everyone who reviews what he does is like "WTF?!?"

[Mav]

Suspension VACATED!


Congrats.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

So they get away with blatant cheating again. The integrity of this game is long gone.

[jonzie04]

Holy shit, this wont end well.

[KCFalcon59]

Ha ha. Awesome.

[notorious]

Now the Pats fans will realize just how badly you can be fucked by the officiating.

[GoChargers]

:LOL: It really depends on what Berman's order says. Suffice to say that the NFL has lost, AGAIN, when it comes to player discipline, because Goodell is out of control/insane.

It isn't just Judge Doty in Minnesota. It isn't ANOTHER federal judge in New York, it's even his own immediate predecessor as Commission. Everyone who reviews what he does is like "WTF?!?"

Cool story, bro. Maybe the union should have done a better job of negotiating.

Was Goodell "out of control and insane" when he slapped you on the wrist for Spygate and went out partying with Kraft before the AFC title game?

[FlaChief58]

I'll be shocked if he gets more than a 1 game suspension because Pat's

Welp...

[GoChargers]

Now the Pats fans will realize just how badly you can be fucked by the officiating.

Brady will get every call as usual.

[penbrook]

Brady should of been suspended but 4 games was way too much. Maybe a game or two but this is Goodell's fault. They had a chance to meet before and come to a settlement but his fucking who said 4 games still!

[Red Dawg]

Effing bullshit. Berman is a complete jackass basicly telling the league that everyone has to follow the CBA but not Brady. He is special and can do whatever he wants.

Cheating piece of shit and I hope Rex Ryan takes his legs out.

[petegz28]

So you can cheat and get away with it as long as you take it to court....

[Mav]

So they get away with blatant cheating again. The integrity of this game is long gone.


The irony here is that deflating footballs intentionally gets you nothing, while Ray Farmer gets four games for texting.

And Josh Gordon got the season for having drinks on the plane after the season is over.

[Mr. Laz]

So you can cheat and get away with it as long as you take it to court....

it's not the first time, i believe the judges have rule in favor of the athletes in every case but one.


They truly don't give a single shit about the CBA.


League might as well tear it up and throw it away, means nothing

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Oh well. Everyone knows they are complete frauds and that's important too. What they have "accomplished" is meaningless.

[Mr. Laz]

The irony here is that deflating footballs intentionally gets you nothing, while Ray Farmer gets four games for texting.

Nobody gives a shit about Farmer, while everyone wants to suck Brady's dick

[Mav]

Nobody gives a shit about Farmer, while everyone wants to suck Brady's dick


True Story.

[ChiefGator]

Good.. hopefully this is seen as an indictment of Goodell's handling of this case more than anything else. I have no idea why they handled this case the way they did, but it was botched (most likely intentionally) from the beginning.

Was going to post this article earlier:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25288362/jay-feely-i-was-in-similar-situation-as-tom-brady-and-didnt-get-punished

Feely was in a very similar situation and was not investigated at all.

I'm still not going to give over my personal phone to my employer anytime they want to review my calls. Funk that.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

American legal system....how much can you pay to make it go away

[Bob Dole]

And in a sealed ruling, the Chiefs will lose to the Colts in the playoffs.

[jonzie04]

I wonder if its too late for Sean Smith to go to court. I'm sure theres some kind of funny statue or clause, or a misspelled word in there somewhere that some big wig lawyer can twist around to get him reduced as well. Or maybe something in the bylaws.... I actually have no idea what a statue, clause or a bylaw is, but i've been watching Suits and i imagine there might be some in there somewhere.

[Red Dawg]

Hide shit and don't cooperate and you get nothing?

If I was a suspended player I would be running to this douchebag to get me out of it as well. I would also sue the NFL for my lost pay.

What a double standard Berman has just handed down and the exact opposite of what the Supreme Court voted on. Moron.

[Marcellus]

Effing bullshit. Berman is a complete jackass basicly telling the league that everyone has to follow the CBA but not Brady. He is special and can do whatever he wants.

Cheating piece of shit and I hope Rex Ryan takes his legs out.

The penalty for equipment violations is clearly laid out in the CBA and was enforced per the CBA during last season.

$25,000 per violation.

If you think the CBA needs enforced the the suspension is bullshit. If you believe otherwise you are an idiot with an agenda and nothing more.

[Bwana]

Brady beats NFL: Federal judge tosses 4-game suspension in 'Deflategate'


A federal judge deflated "Deflategate" Thursday, erasing New England quarterback Tom Brady's four-game suspension for a controversy that the NFL claimed threatened football's integrity.

U.S. District Judge Richard M. Berman said NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell went too far in affirming punishment of the Super Bowl winning quarterback. Brady has insisted he played no role in a conspiracy to deflate footballs below the allowable limit at last season's AFC championship game.
The written decision frees Brady to prepare for the Sept. 10 season opener against the Pittsburgh Steelers.

The ruling was a surprise to some legal experts who believed Berman was merely pressuring the league to settle when he criticized its handling of the investigation and discipline over the last eight months.

The league brought the scandal to Berman's Manhattan courtroom immediately once Goodell upheld Brady's four-game suspension, blasting the quarterback for arranging the destruction of his cellphone and its nearly 10,000 messages just before he was interviewed for the NFL probe. The union countersued, said Brady did nothing wrong and asked the judge to nullify the suspension.

While the league investigation found it was "more probable than not" that two Patriots ball handling employees deliberately released air from Patriots game balls at January's 45-7 New England victory over the Indianapolis Colts, it cited no direct evidence that Brady knew about or authorized it.


Goodell, though, went beyond the initial investigation report, finding in late July as a result of testimony from Brady and others that the quarterback conspired with the ball handlers and tried to obstruct the league's probe, including by destroying his cellphone.

The commissioner said he concluded Brady "knew about, approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards" to ensure balls were deflated.

Berman attacked the league while questioning one of its lawyers at two hearings, citing a lack of proof against Brady and asking how Goodell settled on a four-game suspension instead of other discipline.

He warned the league that he had the authority to overturn its punishment of Brady if he found the NFL acted unfairly by refusing to deliver NFL Executive Vice President Jeff Pash as a witness even though he worked on the NFL investigation.

Berman's ruling does not necessarily end the dispute. The league can appeal.

Berman had repeatedly urged both sides to settle and tone down their rhetoric. At a hearing Monday attended by Brady and Goodell, the judge announced that both sides had "tried quite hard" to reach a deal in morning talks. But the case was left for him to decide.

As they negotiated, the sides attacked each other in court papers.
In one August court filing, the union said the four-game suspension displayed "a clearly biased agenda -- not an effort at fairness and consistency," and it criticized Goodell's ruling upholding the suspension as a "smear campaign," a "propaganda piece written for public consumption."

In its papers, the NFL said there was "ample support" in evidence for the commissioner to conclude Brady was involved in efforts by the Patriots equipment personnel to deflate footballs.

[BigCatDaddy]

LMAO. Love it

[Amnorix]

Fuck you


ROFL

I thought all my arguments about how the NFL did a shoddy job were just because I was a homer and had Brady's dick in my throat. Looks like a federal freaking judge agreed that their process was terrible.

40 page decision, apparently. Haven't seen it yet, but he obviously was tryign to make it thorough and bullet-proof it from appeal.

[BossChief]

But Sean Smith is still suspended?

Why did he not appeal again?

[Marcellus]

It's hilarious you guys are acting like this is the only time Goodell has gotten his ass handed to him over punishment and it's just the Patriots.

The ignorance around here is just barreling at times.

[Amnorix]

Not the same as innocent at all.


No, it isn't. There will never be a hearing or other way to determine true guilt or innocence. And everyone has made up their minds on that anyway.

It just mean another judge siding with the players union no matter what.

look through this thread, knew it was coming

worthless sack of shit judges don't give a fuck about rules or legal documents, they just want to be liked by people


That's kind of a joke, actually, but whatever.

You think Berman will be MORE liked in NEW YORK CITY because he ruled in favor of BRADY?!? WTF?

[ChiefGator]

But Sean Smith is still suspended?

Why did he not appeal again?

Honestly, I think he could have appealed to the league and gotten it reduced to two games. :: shrug ::

[Amnorix]

Berman is a union stooge, just like the clown in Minnesota.


Goodell is the stooge. He keeps going waaay overboard, and LOSING. And it's always for basically the same reason -- he keeps making shit up as he goes.

Federal judge Doty

Federal judge Berman

His own PREDECESSOR AS COMMISSION!! Tagliabue


All the same thing -- "WTF are you doing?!?"

[BigCatDaddy]

The penalty for equipment violations is clearly laid out in the CBA and was enforced per the CBA during last season.

$25,000 per violation.

If you think the CBA needs enforced the the suspension is bullshit. If you believe otherwise you are an idiot with an agenda and nothing more.

They were also pointing out the "generally aware" shit. Basically saying any player aware of a violation like a teammate using PEDs should also be suspeneded under that guideline.

[Amnorix]

Now the Pats fans will realize just how badly you can be fucked by the officiating.


Integrity of the NFL?!? :shrug:

[philfree]

I think Brady should have been made to give his phone text records to the judge. A would think that it would be real easy to only look at the texts to and from the numbers of the guys who handled the balls and deflated them. Brady's personal life would have to come into question. However I don't think that the judge was concerned about the cheating as much as he was the right of Goodell to suspend Brady.

[Marcellus]

interesting tidbit. What was the leauge hiding?

He warned the league that he had the authority to overturn its punishment of Brady if he found the NFL acted unfairly by refusing to deliver NFL Executive Vice President Jeff Pash as a witness even though he worked on the NFL investigation.

[Amnorix]

Nobody gives a shit about Farmer, while everyone wants to suck Brady's dick


Four games may or may not be overkill, but he ABSOLUTELY did it, and there was ABSOLUTELY a rule that applied to him.

The NFL rules regarding equipmetn violations don't even apply to players.

There is at least some doubt as to whether or not he did it.

And the cooperation thing is bullshit too. The phone is a red herring.

The two circumstances have absolutely nothing in common.

[ClevelandBronco]

Great news for the game and the league. Suck it, all you Goodell butt boys and everyone else who envies the Pats' success.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

It's hilarious you guys are acting like this is the only time Goodell has gotten his ass handed to him over punishment and it's just the Patriots.

The ignorance around here is just barreling at times.

Like you thinking the suspension was for an equipment violation?

[BigCatDaddy]

American legal system....how much can you pay to make it go away

Who has more money in this case?

[ChiefGator]

They were also pointing out the "generally aware" shit. Basically saying any player aware of a violation like a teammate using PEDs should also be suspeneded under that guideline.

Yep, the moment I read that line from the Wells Report, I assumed the league would at least reduce the penalty. That 'generally aware' nonsense is.. nonsense.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Who has more money in this case?

The league is cheap :)

[BossChief]

Honestly, I think he could have appealed to the league and gotten it reduced to two games. :: shrug ::

When he got his DUI, the penalty was only a fine...NO SUSPENSION. The rule change happened AFTER HE GOT HIS DUI...

[KCTitus]

Goodell is the stooge. He keeps going waaay overboard, and LOSING. And it's always for basically the same reason -- he keeps making shit up as he goes....

This is the biggest problem, IMO. NFL's new 'court' system that adjudicates players conduct above and beyond the actual legal system will lead to the ruination of this league. Power corrupts...absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

[Amnorix]

Hide shit and don't cooperate and you get nothing?


Real questions re: failure to cooperate:

You do know he turned over zillions of emails?

You do know that he made himself available to give evidence to Wells?

You know that the NFL has no right to his phone? And that they got the phones from EVERYONE associated with the Patriots (other than players) that could have texts or emails relating to deflation. Even Bill Belichick's phone was turned over.

You do know that the punishment was handed down BEFORE the NFL even knew that he destroyed the phone?

[SAUTO]

Brady should of been suspended but 4 games was way too much. Maybe a game or two but this is Goodell's fault. They had a chance to meet before and come to a settlement but his fucking who said 4 games still!

the max penalty is supposed to be a 25,000 fine...

[Ming the Merciless]

Good....this whole thing was lame from the beginning.

They won 45-7 , Scoring most of their points after the balls were corrected.

The nfl basically ignored science and rushed to punish, then punished Brady WAY too harshly.

I hope the pats go far this season,fuck all jealous haters

[KC_Connection]

So they get away with blatant cheating again. The integrity of this game is long gone.
Spygate, bugging rooms, deflating footballs, it's somehow never these cheaters' fault. LMAO

[SAUTO]

Effing bullshit. Berman is a complete jackass basicly telling the league that everyone has to follow the CBA but not Brady. He is special and can do whatever he wants.

Cheating piece of shit and I hope Rex Ryan takes his legs out.

again per the CBA the max penalty is a 25000 dollar fine.

goodell is the one who didnt follow the CBA

[Amnorix]

This is the biggest problem, IMO. NFL's new 'court' system that adjudicates players conduct above and beyond the actual legal system will lead to the ruination of this league. Power corrupts...absolute power corrupts, absolutely.


This. THIS. MF'ing THIS!

[Marcellus]

Like you thinking the suspension was for an equipment violation?

Let's play along for a minute.

What's the punishment history for not cooperating with an NFL investigation? You know there is a history there as well right? You know there was another NE player in this same investigation who told them he wouldn't give up his phone right?

You want to continue to try this?

[Reerun_KC]

The penalty for equipment violations is clearly laid out in the CBA and was enforced per the CBA during last season.

$25,000 per violation.

If you think the CBA needs enforced the the suspension is bullshit. If you believe otherwise you are an idiot with an agenda and nothing more.

Absolutely this...

[ChiefGator]

Hopefully the league just accepts the judgement and we can get back to football. This is a black eye on the league and only gets worse the more they push it, imo.

[Red Dawg]

again per the CBA the max penalty is a 25000 dollar fine.

goodell is the one who didnt follow the CBA

Max? No it's the minimum penalty.

[Amnorix]

Spygate, bugging rooms, deflating footballs, it's somehow never these cheaters' fault. LMAO


No evidence of that, none.

It's also kinda silly -- why wouldn't the Patriots bug hallways too? Peyton can be paranoid, that's cool, but seriously, you're calling them guilty of something they never did and for which there is literally no proof. Good lord.

[SAUTO]

Max? No it's the minimum penalty.

have you got a link to that?

[Reerun_KC]

Loving watching all the Goodell butt humpers cry like bitches... You guys get what you deserve for supporting that dickhole....

[Amnorix]

Hopefully the league just accepts the judgement and we can get back to football. This is a black eye on the league and only gets worse the more they push it, imo.


Zero chance of that I think. Goodell is on a power trip. The NFL isn't just going to let some player beat it. No F'ing way.

DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!? I'M THE FUCKING COMMISSIONER. I CAN DO WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT, HOW I WANT, TO ANY PLAYER. ARTICLE 46 BITCHES!!

It's asinine, but that is what it has become.

[Red Dawg]

Spygate, bugging rooms, deflating footballs, it's somehow never these cheaters' fault. LMAO

I know. They are never to blame and it's all bullshit.

Brady is a liar and this judge is an idiot.

[ChiefGator]

Spygate, bugging rooms, deflating footballs, it's somehow never these cheaters' fault. LMAO

No evidence of that, none.

It's also kinda silly -- why wouldn't the Patriots bug hallways too? Peyton can be paranoid, that's cool, but seriously, you're calling them guilty of something they never did and for which there is literally no proof. Good lord.

Well, as of right now, the Patriots have paid a pretty heft price.

However, I doubt Brady was video-taping, bugging rooms, and was 'most likely generally aware' of the footballs according to the actual investigation.

[Reerun_KC]

Max? No it's the minimum penalty.

Link?

[wazu]

I hope the NFL appeals.

[The Franchise]

Guess who's still a fucking cheater?

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Guess who's still a fucking cheater?

Thread

But but but but but but but/Asterix

[Reerun_KC]

Hopefully the league just accepts the judgement and we can get back to football. This is a black eye on the league and only gets worse the more they push it, imo.

The best thing that can come out of this would be Goodell losing his iron fist on the NFL and hopefully being replaced sooner rather than later.

His mark on the league is forever tarnished. Goodell should have an * by his tenure and be known forever and the commish that tarnished the league.

[Hootie]

congrats on another patriots win ...

[Marcellus]

It's pretty funny how the NFL gets accused of playing favorites to NE in previous years then this happens and the leauge gets pounded by the court, and now it's the federal court system playing favorites.

JFC who you plan to blame next?

It's obvious Goodell sucks at his job when it comes to player punishment. It's not complicated.

[Marcellus]

Guess who's still a ****ing cheater?

My guess is all 32 teams to some degree.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Put Asterix on the back of his jersey for four games and maybe like the poster here will go away like a bitch because of a name change.

[Hootie]

got Brady in the 3rd round in a 2 QB league last night ... beautiful

[KC_Connection]

Thread

But but but but but but but/Asterix

I hope these fans enjoy having the Patriots' accomplishments perceived much like Barry Bonds' HR record.

[Reerun_KC]

My guess is all 32 teams to some degree.

Not the good ol lunch pale hard working Chiefs.... They would never cheat...


:p

[Pasta Little Brioni]

My guess is all 32 teams to some degree.

But of course!!!

[ChiefGator]

The best thing that can come out of this would be Goodell losing his iron fist on the NFL and hopefully being replaced sooner rather than later.

His mark on the league is forever tarnished. Goodell should have an * by his tenure and be known forever and the commish that tarnished the league.

I do generally agree.

It actually HURTS the public view of the players and the league that months and months after a court handles a case, the league has its own punishment system. And I don't really mean on this case actually.. this at least had to do with the product on the field. There was a recent report that showed that NFL players actually get arrested and get in trouble with the law significantly LESS than the general population. But, drudging up everything and putting in on the front page of the sports sections gives everyone the reverse impression.

[SAUTO]

Link?

its been linked here a hundred times, at least, that the maximum penalty is 25000 dollars

[DaNewGuy]

I thought the NFL would
love this storyline, Pats start 0-4 then Brady comes back to
Hammer off 12 wins

[notorious]

Okay, judge says that Brady cheated, but since goddell went beyond the defined punishment he gets off scott free.

[GoChargers]

Goodell is the stooge. He keeps going waaay overboard, and LOSING. And it's always for basically the same reason -- he keeps making shit up as he goes.

Federal judge Doty

Federal judge Berman

His own PREDECESSOR AS COMMISSION!! Tagliabue


All the same thing -- "WTF are you doing?!?"

You're right about one thing, Goodell is a stooge... for Kraft. Kraft's known as the Senior Commish for a reason.

[Amnorix]

It's pretty funny how the NFL gets accused of playing favorites to NE in previous years then this happens and the leauge gets pounded by the court, and now it's the federal court system playing favorites.

JFC who you plan to blame next?

It's obvious Goodell sucks at his job when it comes to player punishment. It's not complicated.


This times eleventy billion. Reference tweet below posted when punishment was first handed down.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN_IEPWUEAAduhb.jpg

[Reerun_KC]

Okay, judge says that Brady cheated, but since this particular offense did not have a predefined punishment he gets off scott free.


He should of been fined the max of $25K and that should of been the end of it...

But Noooo! Goodell and his butt humping minions keep making a huge deal out of it...

Best thing that could of happened to the NFL is this... Brady should get his $25K fine and Goodell should lose his job, end of story.

The rest is just jealously driven agendas that have zero bearing on the game of football.

[Brock]

Has laz stopped crying yet

[Reerun_KC]

This times eleventy billion. Reference tweet below posted when punishment was first handed down.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN_IEPWUEAAduhb.jpg

Exactly the point...

[Amnorix]

You're right about one thing, Goodell is a stooge... for Kraft. Kraft's known as the Senior Commish for a reason.


:spock:


https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wowthats_um.jpg?w=720

[Chromatic]

Good.

[Amnorix]

Fuck you


ROFL

[MagicHef]

Wow, I'm genuinely surprised. I wonder when the appeal will happen.

[MMXcalibur]

I don't give a shit anymore.

It's over.
Thank Christ.

[Amnorix]

I don't give a shit anymore.

It's over.
Thank Christ.


I wish it were. NFL will appeal, or else it will be sent back and the entire process done again.

If you think for a second that the NFL will simply take its loss and go home, you're definitely wrong. People accuse the Patriots of being arrogant, but the NFL is insanely arrogant. It's a big part of the entire problem with their discipline procedures.

[Reerun_KC]

Goddell taking a beating on ESPN.

[Rain Man]

So it appears that this was all a ruse. Goodell suspended Brady so he could look tough and dispel the notion that he was playing favorites, knowing the whole time that the suspension wouldn't hold up. Savvy move by the conspirators.

[Amnorix]

Wow, I'm genuinely surprised. I wonder when the appeal will happen.


Notice of appeal will be filed by 4:00 p.m. today, I bet.

If the Second Circuit grants expedited process, it could all be resolved by later in the season, potentiallya ffecting the Patriots playoff run, or even playoff games. If not, figure next summer.

Unless, instead, the NFL goes back to the drawing board and re-does the suspension process. Depending on Berman's order, that is a possibility.

[Mr. Kotter]

I wish it were. NFL will appeal, or else it will be sent back and the entire process done again.

If you think for a second that the NFL will simply take its loss and go home, you're definitely wrong. People accuse the Patriots of being arrogant, but the NFL is insanely arrogant. It's a big part of the entire problem with their discipline procedures.

The NFL is a business. Funny how they aren't allowed to run themsleves as other businesses do.

:hmmm:

[GoChargers]

:spock:


https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wowthats_um.jpg?w=720

http://i.imgur.com/9cuaJVn.jpg

[DaneMcCloud]

Big shocker

:rolleyes:

Goodell should just let this go but knowing him, he won't. If the NFL appeals, I hope they lose again and again and again. But most importantly, the NFLPA has to stand up to the NFL during the next CBA negotiations so things like this don't even happen, again.

[Amnorix]

So Goodell was Kraft's "stooge" when he handed down an absurd 1st and 4th round pick forfeiture and $1 million fine for an equipment malfunction?

he was being Kraft's stooge when he handed down an absurd, and now vacated, four game suspension for the team's best player and star? The guy Kraft has referred to as his "fifth son"?

You're a fucking moron. GTFO with that ridiculous BS.

[The Franchise]

*

[Amnorix]

Big shocker

:rolleyes:

Goodell should just let this go but knowing him, he won't. If the NFL appeals, I hope they lose again and again and again. But most importantly, the NFLPA has to stand up to the NFL during the next CBA negotiations so things like this don't even happen, again.


yes. Can't happen until 2021, but NFL clearly needs a third party arbitrator. It's too bad, because if Goodell didn't overstep his bounds EVERY DAMN TIME, the system would work ok. But he just makes it up as he goes, and let's public opinion make the decision for him.

[bdj23]

So Goodell was Kraft's "stooge" when he handed down an absurd 1st and 4th round pick forfeiture and $1 million fine for an equipment malfunction?

he was being Kraft's stooge when he handed down an absurd, and now vacated, four game suspension for the team's best player and star? The guy Kraft has referred to as his "fifth son"?

You're a ****ing moron. GTFO with that ridiculous BS.

Don't you have your own board?

[WhawhaWhat]

*

36*, 38*, 39*, 49*

[ChiefGator]

The NFL is a business. Funny how they aren't allowed to run themsleves as other businesses do.

:hmmm:

That is a bit of simplification.

Actually, the Patriots are an independently run business and the NFL is now also a (no longer non-profit) business and a "cartel" of 32 independent businesses, each with their own interests.

The CBA is what is important.

[Amnorix]

Oh another federal judge bitch slapped the NFL in a discipline matter.

Federal Judge Barbara Jones, in the Ray Rice situation.

Three federal judges and Taglibue. When will they fucking learn?