Scout on 2013 draft "It was a disaster, everyone thought Fisher would be good"

[Quesadilla Joe]

Peter King had a nice breakdown of the 2013 draft in his most recent MMQB article. He also makes an argument that maybe Pioli wasn't so bad.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/09/21/nfl-week-2-seattle-seahawks-monday-morning-quarterback

It’s not altogether strange for the top of a draft to crap out. But so fast? That could be the lasting story of the 2013 first round. The first overall pick, tackle Eric Fisher, is on the bench with the Chiefs. Four players in the top half of the first round look like looming busts, and the bottom half of the round looks stronger than the top half already. Keep in mind that the 2013 class was not evaluated to be particularly strong. There wasn’t a no-doubt quarterback, and the skill positions and corners were below average. But who’d have thought it would look this bad 34 games later?

Surveying the carnage leads to one overriding conclusion: We hype drafts to a silly level of expectation. We overrate players just because of where they are picked. We can’t wait to see how they play before we rate success and failure. And then, a couple of years later, we look at a draft like the 2013 draft and say with some incredulity, W-w-w-what happened?

As one longtime scout told me Saturday when I showed him the results of the draft: “That draft is a disaster—a total riddle. You simply can’t predict how players will do in a different environment. Everyone thought Eric Fisher would be good. Everyone. I thought Jonathan Cooper would be good. Easy pick. There is a randomness to the draft that you can’t explain.”

I’m going to get to the lesson of why a volume of compensatory picks should be as valuable as first-round picks in a few moments. But first, learn a draft lesson this morning. The badness of the 2013 draft:

• There is not a star among the top dozen picks of the first round. Not close. Ziggy Ansah, maybe. But if the best player in the top 12 of a draft after 2.1 years is a guy averaging half a sack per start, that’s a terrible bit of testimony to the quality of a draft.

• The No. 1 overall pick, tackle Eric Fisher of the Chiefs, lost his left tackle job to the 74th pick of the 2012 draft, Donald Stephenson. And then, under cloudy circumstances, Fisher lost the right tackle job—either because of an ankle sprain or poor performance—to a tackle on the street, Jah Reid, signed just seven days before the season-opener. The Chiefs will have paid Fisher $17.7 million by the end of this season, and they’ve got to be having major buyer’s remorse for a guy who, according to Pro Football Focus, was the 34th-rated right tackle in the NFL his rookie year (among 36 who played at least eight games) and the 28th-rated left tackle in 2014.

• The No. 3 pick, defensive end Dion Jordan, is suspended for the season for violating the league’s substance-abuse program, his third substance suspension in three years. He has started one game and had three sacks.

• The No. 9 pick, cornerback Dee Milliner of the Jets, had a poor rookie year, tore his Achilles last year, and saw the Jets sign three free-agent cornerbacks this year to play above him … then needed wrist surgery in camp (his seventh football-related surgery of his life) and will be sidelined until at least midseason. So it’s not all his fault, certainly. But he hasn’t been a profitable pick for the Jets.

• The No. 16 pick, quarterback E.J. Manuel, is the third passer on the Buffalo depth chart after 14 underwhelming starts in his first two seasons.

Then there are the marginal starters: tackle Luke Joeckel of Jacksonville (second overall), defensive end Barkevious Mingo of Cleveland (sixth overall), guard Jonathan Cooper of Arizona (seventh overall), and cornerback D.J. Hayden of Oakland (12th overall). So in just 28 months, eight of the top 16 picks have raised major questions about their future. That is significantly more than the major questions in the second half of the first round. The last 16 picks, overall, are clearly better than the top 16. Compare for yourself:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2cs9sg5.png

If I were to rank the top quarter of that draft’s first round, I’d go this way:

1. Sheldon Richardson (13th overall).
2. Travis Frederick (31st).
3. Desmond Trufant (22nd).
4. Kyle Long (20th).
5. Xavier Rhodes (25th).
6. DeAndre Hopkins (27th).
7. Sharrif Floyd (23rd).
8. Ziggy Ansah (5th).

Quite an indictment of the scouting process in 2013, that six of the top eight players may have been picked from No. 20 and beyond. There are several messages here. The easy thing to say is that scouts stink, and the thought process of teams is flawed. What I would say is that scouting is an incredibly inexact science. Joeckel and Fisher have struggled with the outside speed of the pro game, though Joeckel, specifically, played against speed rushers on the outside of a spread system at Texas A&M. So how do you figure him struggling so mightily? I think it’s also the case that some years, and this one certainly appears to be one, are just not top-heavy. The strength of the draft looked to be on the outside of the offensive and defensive lines, and it’s been nothing like that.

Two other points need to be made.

In this draft-evaluation business, you’ve got to be careful with making absolute statements. For example, GM Scott Pioli was ridden out of Kansas City after four seasons, in early 2013. But from his four drafts come the guts of the current Chiefs defense that looks so good right now: Dontari Poe and Allen Bailey on the line, 2014 NFL sack leader Justin Houston (with the 70th pick in 2011) at outside linebacker, and Eric Berry in the defensive backfield (if he can continue his comeback from lymphoma). The left tackle, Stephenson, was a Pioli third-round pick in 2012. Pioli had his share of misses, and didn’t leave Andy Reid with a quarterback of the future. But his hits go to show you—and the team’s relative success since his dismissal—that the tar-and-feathering business in personnel evaluation can be pretty misleading.

Also, I’ve become convinced—and this started with the way Jimmy Johnson/Jerry Jones were wheeling and dealing when Johnson got to the Cowboys—that the number of picks in a draft is far more important than the location of the picks. With lots of low-round gems, Johnson proved that collecting lots of picks was the way to go since history says teams are bound to be wrong on even some of the seemingly surest things. Take the Ravens. They are the biggest believers in the compensatory pick system. That’s the lottery in which teams lose pricey free agents and collect picks between the third and seventh rounds in future drafts as compensation for the losses. In the past five drafts, the Ravens have had 15 compensatory picks and turned them into two key pieces of the offensive line—starting tackle Ricky Wagner and third guard John Urschel—and starting fullback Kyle Juszczyk and pass-rusher Pernell McPhee. Love this irony: McPhee could net the Ravens a pick at the end of the fourth round in 2016 after he signed a five-year, $39-million contract with the Bears last spring. That’s the kind of personnel discipline, knowing when to let good players leave because you trust you can train new players who cost much less, that consistently good teams have.

[jd1020]

Pretty unfair to say Fisher isn't good. Didn't he bulk up on muscle this offseason? He did the same thing last offseason and it made a remarkable difference!

[TimBone]

He always makes an argument that Pioli wasn't so bad. Ballwasher.

[MIAdragon]

Fuck off and fuck Pioli.

[MIAdragon]

Pretty unfair to say Fisher isn't good. Didn't he bulk up on muscle this offseason? He did the same thing last offseason and it made a remarkable difference!

He may be good at doing that just not football.

[Rausch]

Pioli and co weren't fired because they couldn't draft or evaluate talent...

[jd1020]

He may be good at doing that just not football.

But he never even has to touch the actual ball.

[notorious]

Even Peter King says that Fisher got demoted.

[the Talking Can]

The No. 1 overall pick, tackle Eric Fisher of the Chiefs, lost his left tackle job to the 74th pick of the 2012 draft, Donald Stephenson. And then, under cloudy circumstances, Fisher lost the right tackle job—because of an ankle sprain, or maybe poor performance—to a tackle off the street, Jah Reid, signed just seven days before the season-opener. The Chiefs will have paid Fisher $17.7 million by the end of this season, and they’ve got to be having major buyer’s remorse for a guy who, according to Pro Football Focus, was the 34th-rated right tackle in the NFL his rookie year (among 36 who played at least eight games) and the 28th-rated left tackle in 2014.


if you were wondering whether or not he's one of the most epic busts of a #1 pick

[OctoberFart]

It is pretty clear Fisher doesn't have the mentality to go with his draft position. He is happy to be in KC collecting a check and hopes it lasts long enough to collect retirement for life.

[notorious]

He always makes an argument that Pioli wasn't so bad. Ballwasher.


King picked the Chiefs to go 10-6 in 2009, Pioli's first year.


That's a good indicator of just how far King's tongue is up Pioli's ass.

[notorious]

It is pretty clear Fisher doesn't have the mentality to go with his draft position. He is happy to be in KC collecting a check and hopes it lasts long enough to collect retirement for life.

Not bad work if you can get it.

[KCUnited]

Versatile enough to play every position on the line and can come in off the bench.

[rabblerouser]

He always makes an argument that Pioli wasn't so bad. Ballwasher.

Yeah Peter King has some weird quasi-homo man crush on Pioli.

Fuck them both

[rabblerouser]

Versatile enough to play every position on the line and can come in off the bench.

There's probably a few of those that went undrafted.

[rabblerouser]

Pioli and co weren't fired because they couldn't draft or evaluate talent...

Oh I firmly believe that if it weren't for SOC and wearing black etc that Pioli would've stayed his contract length.

Remember, he signed an extension in the 2011-2012 offseason...

[notorious]

Oh I firmly believe that if it weren't for SOC and wearing black etc that Pioli would've stayed his contract length.

Remember, he signed an extension in the 2011-2012 offseason...

Agree 100%


And I bet he would have brought in an AIDS riddled Cheatriots-Way coach, too.

[KC native]

So where are the Fisher defenders?

huge fucking bust is bust.

[rabblerouser]

Agree 100%


And I bet he would have brought in an AIDS riddled Cheatriots-Way coach, too.

Josh McDaniels!!

:doh!:

[notorious]

Josh McDaniels!!

:doh!:

...to coach up (gulp) Matt Cassel.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Fuck King, Eric Berry was the most obvious choice where he was drafted and so was Houston. That's not skill

[L.A. Chieffan]

So where are the Fisher defenders?

huge fucking bust is bust.

You can call him a bust but that's missing the point. Who would you have drafted instead?

[notorious]

You can call him a bust but that's missing the point. Who would you have drafted instead?

That ship has sailed.

Nobody else could have been drafted in his place.


He sucks, and we got him because of horrible timing.

[Chiefnj2]

Fisher learned well from Albert. Both are masters at missing time due to injury.

[rabblerouser]

That ship has sailed.

Nobody else could have been drafted in his place.


He sucks, and we got him because of horrible timing.

Amazingly horrible timing...there was no one else to take.

[rabblerouser]

...to coach up (gulp) Matt Cassel.

'McDaniels is here to fix the Quarterback.'
**** King, Eric Berry was the most obvious choice where he was drafted and so was Houston. That's not skill

No shit. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Tyson Jackson at #3??

ROFL

is he even still in the league??

[Sassy Squatch]

'McDaniels is here to fix the Quarterback.'


No shit. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Tyson Jackson at #3??

ROFL

is he even still in the league??
Signed by Scooter in Atlanta. 5 years, 25 million. Lololololololol

[rabblerouser]

Signed by Scooter in Atlanta. 5 years, 25 million. Lololololololol

Bwahahahahaha awesome sauce

Next stop : Oakland

[BigMeatballDave]

Maybe Pioli wasn't so bad. LMAO

[mdchiefsfan]

How Kelce isn't on the list for redraft is beyond me.

[Three7s]

Why people continue to read anything King says is beyond me.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

Pretty unfair to say Fisher isn't good. Didn't he bulk up on muscle this offseason? He did the same thing last offseason and it made a remarkable difference!

Actually, Fisher didn't bulk up in 2014 as he was recovering from shoulder surgery. So no, the verdict remains on Fisher. This can be a blessing in disguise if he is actually better than what we have seen, then we are going to get a discount to retain him on his next contract which financially helps this team to pay a player big money during rebuilding years rather than now.

[Chief_For_Life58]

eh ima give fisher the rest of this year and hope he improves before i start wishing he dies

[rabblerouser]

Why people continue to read anything King says is beyond me.

This^

[The Franchise]

So let me get this straight....Pioli hit on the following players in 4 drafts.

Berry
Poe
Houston
Bailey
Stephenson

5. He hit on 5 fucking players in 4 fucking drafts.....and we're supposed to celebrate that shit? He had how many top 15 picks during his tenure? Fucking 3.

And I don't count Stephenson because that asshole passed on Wilson for him....and Stephenson is just NOW playing LT.

Pioli gets Bailey and Poe....and that's fucking it.

[rabblerouser]

So let me get this straight....Pioli hit on the following players in 4 drafts.

Berry
Poe
Houston
Bailey
Stephenson

5. He hit on 5 ****ing players in 4 ****ing drafts.....and we're supposed to celebrate that shit? He had how many top 15 picks during his tenure? ****ing 3.

And I don't count Stephenson because that asshole passed on Wilson for him....and Stephenson is just NOW playing LT.

Pioli gets Bailey and Poe....and that's ****ing it.
Even Poe was a no-brainer - he was the best DT available when Jerel Powe was the only one we had under contract.

He gets credit for Bailey. That's it.

[Bewbies]

If you want to see how NFL guys who suck at their jobs stay around, look no further. In an article about the 2013 draft the architect of the team who earned the #1 pick is praised for how well he set the team up.

I don't think there's anything more important to an NFL GM than a cozy relationship with a few highly read writers.

[ChiefsCountry]

Bailey-Poe-Richardson would have been a damn scary 3 front. Then throw in Houston and Hali. Hot damn.

[RunKC]

Dorsey did what everyone else would have done. It was a shit draft. Worst I've seen in several years. Not one of these players was worth the #1 overall pick.

No doubt Fisher is in hot water. Let's see he looks like when he gets back. If he plays well that's all we can really ask for.

I'm just glad we got one of the 5 best players in the draft in Kelce.

Knile Davis has been a great pick too for where he was selected. How many other teams did better than us in that draft?

[Hoover]

His defense of Fat Scott is just too much. Nobody questions his ability to draft, its was him inability to hire a head coach and run a team that did him in.

[The Franchise]

His defense of Fat Scott is just too much. Nobody questions his ability to draft, its was him inability to hire a head coach and run a team that did him in.

His drafting wasn't a strong point either.

[Chief_For_Life58]

wait why would u not give credit to pioli for houston

[suzzer99]

Actually, Fisher didn't bulk up in 2014 as he was recovering from shoulder surgery. So no, the verdict remains on Fisher. This can be a blessing in disguise if he is actually better than what we have seen, then we are going to get a discount to retain him on his next contract which financially helps this team to pay a player big money during rebuilding years rather than now.

You're delusional.

The signs weren't good, but I gave Fisher until this year to prove himself by taking a big step up. Instead he's taken a big step down. He's a bust.

[RealSNR]

You can call him a bust but that's missing the point. Who would you have drafted instead?

Why did we have to draft an OT? We had Albert and Winston. We manufactured a hole all so we could draft one of those fartfaces.

[suzzer99]

Further proof the Chiefs are one of the most snakebit teams in the league - we get 1.1 in the WOAT draft.

Even when we win a big game like beating undefeated GB a few years ago - it means we have to suffer through two years of one of the worst head coaches of all time.

SNAKE BIT

[RealSNR]

So let me get this straight....Pioli hit on the following players in 4 drafts.

Berry
Poe
Houston
Bailey
Stephenson

5. He hit on 5 fucking players in 4 fucking drafts.....and we're supposed to celebrate that shit? He had how many top 15 picks during his tenure? Fucking 3.

And I don't count Stephenson because that asshole passed on Wilson for him....and Stephenson is just NOW playing LT.

Pioli gets Bailey and Poe....and that's fucking it.
He hit on Jamaal Charles! /Falcons fans

[Saccopoo]

Even Poe was a no-brainer - he was the best DT available when Jerel Powe was the only one we had under contract.

He gets credit for Bailey. That's it.

Why does he get credit for Bailey?

Bailey led the Hurricanes in sacks (from the defensive tackle position) for three straight seasons and was considered the one of the best defensive players in that conference.

Bailey was not some diamond in the rough, small school unknown. Dude was a horse in college.

Fact is, when we picked Bailey, we really didn't have any five-techs on the roster other than Jackson and Bailey was basically the best guy on the board at that point - by a long ways IMO at the biggest position of need.

Sure, he gets credit for Bailey because he picked him, but it was the same pick that he did in 2009 when he selected Alex Magee in the third round. They had to have another potential five tech, all of the other potential players at that position were completely off the board when the Chiefs picked in the third round (after spending the first round pick on Jon Baldwin).

After JJ Watt, Corey Liugett and Cameron Heyward were picked in the first round, Allen Bailey was basically the next best option for a potential five tech pick in the 2011 draft. And the Chiefs literally had to have one out of that draft after Magee went bust. Actually, I'm surprised that they took Hudson in the second versus Bailey and that Bailey was still on the board in the third. I think it was more of a "Pioli got incredibly lucky" deal with Bailey than he was a genius for waiting him out until the third round. (Almost the same type of deal with Houston.)

I'd give him more credit for taking Hudson in the second than I would Bailey in the third.

[TEX]

You're delusional.

The signs weren't good, but I gave Fisher until this year to prove himself by taking a big step up. Instead he's taken a big step down. He's a bust.

I did too and feel the same way. In addition to a bust, he's a pussy.

[Pablo]

Why did we have to draft an OT? We had Albert and Winston. We manufactured a hole all so we could draft one of those fartfaces.Yeah, but Albert was oft injured and Winston said bad things about the fans. Fish is oft injured, but he sure does love him some KC baby!

[suzzer99]

Anyone who doesn't give Pioli credit for Houston is also delusional - 31 other GMs passed on him. Pioli sucked in many ways - but drafting Houston was his finest moment with the Chiefs.

[alpha_omega]

Yep, i'm in agreement....

FU PK and FU SP.

[sedated]

When a player is a bust, "look at the bust he drafted!"

When a player is good, "he was an obvious choice, the GM gets no credit for that"

[Saccopoo]

Anyone who doesn't give Pioli credit for Houston is also delusional - 31 other GMs passed on him. Pioli sucked in many ways - but drafting Houston was his finest moment with the Chiefs.

He got lucky.

Nobody could have envisioned Houston becoming the all-around player he developed into the past several years.

He was never asked to defend the run out of the 43 DE position he played at Georgia and that was a concern about his game going into the draft.

And nobody thought that he was going to be able to easily transition into a 34 OLB at the NFL level when he was a 280 lb. trunk heavy DE at the combine, especially from a man pass perspective.

His initial burst and pursuit were very good and due to that, he was considered a possible (but not given) late first round/early second round selection that downgraded after his poor decision to fire up weed right before the combine.

He was a bit of a tweener type prospect that had some question marks about his ability in a 34 as a full time OLB versus a situational pass rusher at best.

In the third round, with holes at the OLB position on the roster, it was a pretty easy dice to roll to select Houston at that point. (I remember that there were a number of guys here on CP who advocated taking him in the first.)

You can probably thank the Titans and Texans for taking Akeem Ayers and Brooks Reed respectively in the second round of the 2011 draft for Justin Houston as much or more than you can thank Scott Pioli for being the genius behind the Houston pick. (In fact, Reed is now with the Falcons.)

[notorious]

The draft has a lot of luck involved.

Being a paranoid, micro-managing piece of shit involves no luck.

[RealSNR]

Anyone who doesn't give Pioli credit for Houston is also delusional - 31 other GMs passed on him.

That is completely irrelevant.

[Snapplez]

Why did we have to draft an OT? We had Albert and Winston. We manufactured a hole all so we could draft one of those fartfaces.

This is one of the most hateworthy things of the Fisher pick. They completely created the need for his bruised vag

[Saccopoo]

The draft has a lot of luck involved.

Being a paranoid, micro-managing piece of shit involves no luck.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/79/9e/fd/799efd7b6cba8229c8e8b273e9e0c11a.jpg

[Rain Man]

I was driving yesterday and had the Miami-Jacksonville game on the radio, and they said something that made me laugh.

There was some pass play, and the announcers said, "A Dolphin is down and hurt at the line of scrimmage. It's Branden Albert."

As the trainers were working with Albert, they said, "He also went down last week with an injury, and of course he missed half of last season with an injury."

I like Albert and wasn't happy to see him go, but that guy created so much drama with his "injuries". It seemed like three or four times a year he'd go down and be screaming and flailing and you'd think he was dying, and then he'd be back in the game by the end of the series.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

You're delusional.

The signs weren't good, but I gave Fisher until this year to prove himself by taking a big step up. Instead he's taken a big step down. He's a bust.

We won 13 games with him at right tackle as a rookie. And just like you, I'm not going to form a complete opinion on him until this season plays out.

[Dave Lane]

Fuck off and fuck Pioli.

He left the QB cupboard bare. Fuck that guy.

[suzzer99]

We won 13 games with him at right tackle as a rookie. And just like you, I'm not going to form a complete opinion on him until this season plays out.

At this point he's a complete bust until he proves otherwise.

[Bob Dole]

Why, oh why do we have to keep reliving that horrible twist of fate? Finally get 1.1, nothing but crap.

Because Chiefs...

[Bob Dole]

He left the QB cupboard bare. **** that guy.

Bob Dole isn't convinced Aaron Murray isn't going to be a good QB. Not sure why everyone talks like we have nobody but Booger.

[suzzer99]

Why can't we ever stop Manning for one drive when we absolutely need to - when we were stopping him all game? Because... yeah

And not just the final drive. After we went up 14-0 I said to my buddy - "We absolutely need to stop him here. We've seen this movie before. He always gets a quick score back." Yup.

[DaneMcCloud]

Why can't we ever stop Manning for one drive when we absolutely need to - when we were stopping him all game? Because... yeah

And not just the final drive. After we went up 14-0 I said to my buddy - "We absolutely need to stop him here. We've seen this movie before. He always gets a quick score back." Yup.

I'd imagine because he's a future HOF QB with 70,000 yards passing playing a game that has its ruled skewed in favor of average QB's.

But hey, that's just me.

[suzzer99]

Great defenses can crush him. We have a good bordering on great defense.

He started picking on Fleming and we didn't do anything to adjust. He didn't even look at anyone else that final drive. I don't know where our safeties were but if they were playing some kind of soft zone that was really stupid - given there was plenty of time to dink and dunk and Peyton can't throw deep anymore.

[penchief]

Pioli and co weren't fired because they couldn't draft or evaluate talent...

2-14 speaks for itself. He was a terrible evaluator of talent. Just absolutely terrible. 2-14. So yeah, in a way, he was fired for being terrible at his job.

[Hammock Parties]

Peter King never met a Patriots tree asshole he didn't enjoy sucking off.

What a fat turd.

[Deberg_1990]

What a fat turd.

Not anymore. He found diet and exercise like you

[Deberg_1990]

2-14 speaks for itself. He was a terrible evaluator of talent. Just absolutely terrible. 2-14. So yeah, in a way, he was fired for being terrible at his job.

He found some decent talent.


His problems were he hitched his wagon to Cassel, he picked horrible head coaches and had no idea how to create a winning environment

[Hammock Parties]

Not anymore. He found diet and exercise like you

Looks like shit

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMSjfYQWoAAj_ED.jpg:large

[Chromatic]

He's pushing 60 for fucks sake. He looks fine.

[xztop123]

I just didnt like drafting a small school guy who wasnt physically well developed over Joekel who was proven.

[penchief]

He found some decent talent.


His problems were he hitched his wagon to Cassel, he picked horrible head coaches and had no idea how to create a winning environment

Any turd could stumble into as few as he did. Across the board, he was a terrible evaluator. I think we had this discussion earlier. He had four years to build a 2-14 team. Of those four years, we have Houston, Poe, Berry, Bailey, Stephenson, and Allen. That's it. No free agents, no undrafted rookies, no players traded for. Six draft picks in four years.

Houston was a first round talent picked in the third round. No special evaluation skills needed. Poe was a gamble so I guess you can give him that but I attribute that more to Romeo. Berry was a no-brainer but even still, not many safeties picked in the top five. And truth be known, As much as I like Berry I don't think he's had the impact of a top five pick. Stephenson and Allen have not shown anything to merit a 2nd and a 3rd.

Bailey, that's the one he deserves the most credit for. So I'll give him that. Thankfully he has blossomed under Reid and Sutton. Otherwise, who knows.

I think that record speaks for itself. He was a terrible evaluator. None of his picks still playing in the league have done anything more than what they did here and most have gotten worse or failed out of the league. I don't hate the guy, I just think he was a terrible GM in every way. Thank you Clark Hunt for Dorsey and Reid.

[suzzer99]

Looks like shit

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMSjfYQWoAAj_ED.jpg:large

Post yourself so we can compare.

[suzzer99]

Houston was a first round talent picked in the third round. No special evaluation skills needed.

This is just so wrong. Every other GM passed on him. So if the pick was that obvious - then every other GM is a bigger idiot than Pioli. Either way he deserves credit for bucking the trend and picking Houston.

It's ok, you can still hate him for being the turd he is. Doesn't mean you can't give a little credit when he made a great pick.

[alanm]

Remember when the Chiefs used to be able to plug and play on the OL? When whoever they drafted was more or less gold? Me either. :banghead:

[penchief]

This is just so wrong. Every other GM passed on him. So if the pick was that obvious - then every other GM is a bigger idiot than Pioli. Either way he deserves credit for bucking the trend and picking Houston.

It's ok, you can still hate him for being the turd he is. Doesn't mean you can't give a little credit when he made a great pick.

I gave him credit for Bailey. Houston dropped because he tested positive for pot at the combine. Giving him credit for picking Houston with the second of his two third-rounders is akin to saying Jerry Jones is a great evaluator of talent because he drafted Gregory in the second and signed Collins as a free-agent after he went undrafted.

IMO, picking Houston in the third had less to do with Pioli's talent evaluation skills and more to do with the fact he took a chance on Houston with the extra third-rounder he picked up in the Baldwin trade.

[salame]

I gave him credit for Bailey. Houston dropped because he tested positive for pot at the combine. Giving him credit for picking Houston with the second of his two third-rounders is akin to saying Jerry Jones is a great evaluator of talent because he drafted Gregory in the second and signed Collins as a free-agent after he went undrafted.

IMO, picking Houston in the third had less to do with Pioli's talent evaluation skills and more to do with the fact he took a chance on Houston with the extra third-rounder he picked up in the Baldwin trade.

THIS

[Saccopoo]

This is just so wrong. Every other GM passed on him. So if the pick was that obvious - then every other GM is a bigger idiot than Pioli. Either way he deserves credit for bucking the trend and picking Houston.

It's ok, you can still hate him for being the turd he is. Doesn't mean you can't give a little credit when he made a great pick.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=11746143&postcount=53

[DaneMcCloud]

Pioli was unadulterated garbage.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

[suzzer99]

You guys are still completely missing my point. What does that say about every other GM in the league if Pioli gets no credit for drafting Houston?

[Eleazar]

It's debatable if there is even ONE player in the top 15 of that draft who would be in the top 15 any other year.

But like the scout quoted says, sometimes the entire league has the same read on a player, and sometimes the entire league is wrong.

[GloucesterChief]

It's debatable if there is even ONE player in the top 15 of that draft who would be in the top 15 any other year.

But like the scout quoted says, sometimes the entire league has the same read on a player, and sometimes the entire league is wrong.

Kelce possibly.

[salame]

It's debatable if there is even ONE player in the top 15 of that draft who would be in the top 15 any other year.

But like the scout quoted says, sometimes the entire league has the same read on a player, and sometimes the entire league is wrong.

Fisher would have been 2nd round other years
Joeckel.............

[mcaj22]

Fat Scott gets credit for Poe and Stephenson, that's it. Berry, Houston, Bailey, where all highly scouted talents coming out of a college, even a monkey could have picked those guys.

[Eleazar]

Fisher would have been 2nd round other years
Joeckel.............

When you think of a #1 overall tackle, I'm thinking of someone who normally comes into the draft with a pedigree like Orlando Pace did, or like Bryant McKinnie did (even though he wasn't a 1.1), someone like that. A generational talent and not a project. But the league was at a consensus that these were the best two guys in that draft.

The next tackle, Lane Johnson (Phi #4 overall) already tested positive for PEDS and was suspended. This week he described his own play thus far this season as "pathetic".

The next one, DJ Fluker (SD #11), has been moved to guard.

The first tackle in the 2013 draft that seems to have worked out is the 5th one Justin Pugh (NYG, #19), and he was considered undersized in the run-up. There's no way you could have taken someone like that at #1.

There's some randomness to the draft that can't really be controlled.

[salame]

When you think of a #1 overall tackle, I'm thinking of someone who normally comes into the draft with a pedigree like Orlando Pace did, or like Bryant McKinnie did (even though he wasn't a 1.1), someone like that. A generational talent and not a project. But the league was at a consensus that these were the best two guys in that draft.

The next tackle, Lane Johnson (Phi #4 overall) already tested positive for PEDS and was suspended. This week he described his own play thus far this season as "pathetic".

The next one, DJ Fluker (SD #11), has been moved to guard.

The first tackle in the 2013 draft that seems to have worked out is the 5th one Justin Pugh (NYG, #19), and he was considered undersized in the run-up.

There's some randomness to the draft that can't really be controlled.

I thought the correct pick was joeckel. I'd have been wrong too lol

[chiefzilla1501]

According to Reid, Fisher is on track to start week 3. Jah Reid did not beat him out of a job. Peter king is full of shit. And it's amazing he's calling a pass rusher, a nose tackle, a safety and a few middling starters the guts of the franchise when the team lacked the heart, which I'd a QB and coaching staff.

[Saccopoo]

You guys are still completely missing my point. What does that say about every other GM in the league if Pioli gets no credit for drafting Houston?

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=11746143&postcount=53

[Eleazar]

I thought the correct pick was joeckel. I'd have been wrong too lol

Not that this really means much, but I lived in Jacksonville until just recently and saw more of their games than most people here have. I'd say his performance has been a lot like Fisher's. He's been hampered by injuries and hasn't really had a fair chance to develop yet, but when he's out there so far, he's -ok-.

But the fans there don't want him drawn and quartered. And I'd wager, Chiefs fans outside of CP understand that injuries happen and don't think Fisher is hiding under his bed or whatever. But maybe Chiefs fans are for some reason way, way less patient. Even though, I'd argue, the Chiefs and Jaguars are very comparable franchises in the 21st century.

The Jaguars have won 5 playoff games since we won our last one, but by and large that team has been buried in the silt for a decade, and people still seem to understand that it doesn't change overnight. And they did create a lot of excitement with Bortles. (Who I wish the Chiefs had, I think in a fair situation he'd turn into a franchise QB.)

[salame]

Not that this really means much, but I lived in Jacksonville until just recently and saw more of their games than most people here have. I'd say his performance has been a lot like Fisher's. He's been hampered by injuries and hasn't really had a fair chance to develop yet, but when he's out there so far, he's -ok-.

But the fans there don't want him drawn and quartered. And I'd wager, Chiefs fans outside of CP understand that injuries happen and don't think Fisher is hiding under his bed or whatever. But maybe Chiefs fans are for some reason way, way less patient. Even though, I'd argue, the Chiefs and Jaguars are very comparable franchises in the 21st century.

The Jaguars have won 5 playoff games since we won our last one, but by and large that team has been buried in the silt for a decade, and people still seem to understand that it doesn't change overnight. And they did create a lot of excitement with Bortles. (Who I wish the Chiefs had, I think in a fair situation he'd turn into a franchise QB.)

Tell a Chiefs fan Jacksonville has been more competitive and they'll laugh you under a rug and mention Matt Jones in a negative fashion

[Eleazar]

Tell a Chiefs fan Jacksonville has been more competitive and they'll laugh you under a rug and mention Matt Jones in a negative fashion

Really, if you look at both franchises since Jacksonville was founded, the Jaguars have 5 playoff wins, have appeared in an AFC championship game, were fairly good for about 10 years and have been pathetic for the last 10 or so years.

Pretty much the Chiefs' story since Marty arrived. Chiefs have more regular season wins, Jaguars have more postseason wins. Chiefs have more kicks in the balls when you thought they were turning the corner, Jaguars never seem to have hope. But the total misery index is about the same.

[Deberg_1990]

Not that this really means much, but I lived in Jacksonville until just recently and saw more of their games than most people here have. I'd say his performance has been a lot like Fisher's. He's been hampered by injuries and hasn't really had a fair chance to develop yet, but when he's out there so far, he's -ok-.

But the fans there don't want him drawn and quartered. And I'd wager, Chiefs fans outside of CP understand that injuries happen and don't think Fisher is hiding under his bed or whatever. But maybe Chiefs fans are for some reason way, way less patient. Even though, I'd argue, the Chiefs and Jaguars are very comparable franchises in the 21st century.

The Jaguars have won 5 playoff games since we won our last one, but by and large that team has been buried in the silt for a decade, and people still seem to understand that it doesn't change overnight. And they did create a lot of excitement with Bortles. (Who I wish the Chiefs had, I think in a fair situation he'd turn into a franchise QB.)

London Jaguars in 2020!

[Eleazar]

London Jaguars in 2020!

For the 5,000th time, the Jaguars have an ironclad lease which was recently extended and their owner just dumped $30 million out of his own pocket for stadium improvements. They aren't moving.

[Rain Man]

For the 5,000th time, the Jaguars have an ironclad lease which was recently extended and their owner just dumped $30 million out of his own pocket for stadium improvements. They aren't moving.

Maybe the entire city of Jacksonville will move. I could see that as a viable option, them being in Florida and all.

[Eleazar]

Maybe the entire city of Jacksonville will move. I could see that as a viable option, them being in Florida and all.

Hmm. Can you lash pontoons onto a trailer?

[penchief]

You guys are still completely missing my point. What does that say about every other GM in the league if Pioli gets no credit for drafting Houston?

The same thing it says about every GM that passed on Gregory in the first round and Collins for seven rounds. Everybody knew they were talented but didn't think they were worth the risk. To say that Pioli's evaluation skills should be viewed in a more positive light because he took a risk on a first round talent in the third round is completely missing the point.

It didn't take a special eye for talent to pull the trigger on Houston in the third round. It took someone willing to take a risk after he tested positive for pot at the combine. Every GM in the league knew he had a talent for rushing the passer. Pioli took a flyer on Houston with the free third rounder he picked up in the Baldwin trade down. Nothing special about what he did when it came to evaluating Houston's talent.

[Mav]

Signed by Scooter in Atlanta. 5 years, 25 million. Lololololololol


Except they are 2-0 and he's a starter.

[BryanBusby]

Except they are 2-0 and he's a starter.
And he's mediocre in Atlanta, too. The Chiefs would also be 2-0 if they could bank on Philly and Giants shitting themselves.

[Brock]

Except they are 2-0 and he's a starter.

He still isn't worth that and wouldn't have gotten that anywhere else.

[Rain Man]

Y'know, I'm looking at the 2009 draft, and it's becoming obvious that the draft class stinks any time the Chiefs get a top 3 pick. Here's the top half of the first round in 2009. It's ridiculously bad.

1 1 Detroit Lions Matthew Stafford† QB Georgia SEC
1 2 St. Louis Rams Jason Smith OT Baylor Big 12
1 3 Kansas City Chiefs Tyson Jackson DE LSU SEC
1 4 Seattle Seahawks Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest ACC
1 5 New York Jets Mark Sanchez QB USC Pac-10 from Cleveland [R1 - 1]
1 6 Cincinnati Bengals Andre Smith OT Alabama SEC
1 7 Oakland Raiders Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Maryland ACC
1 8 Jacksonville Jaguars Eugene Monroe OT Virginia ACC
1 9 Green Bay Packers B. J. Raji† DT Boston College ACC
1 10 San Francisco 49ers Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech Big 12
1 11 Buffalo Bills Aaron Maybin DE Penn State Big Ten
1 12 Denver Broncos Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia SEC
1 13 Washington Redskins Brian Orakpo† DE Texas Big 12
1 14 New Orleans Saints Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio State Big Ten
1 15 Houston Texans Brian Cushing† LB USC Pac-10
1 16 San Diego Chargers Larry English DE Northern Illinois MAC

[BryanBusby]

They were dumb for passing on Raji, although he slumped for awhile.

[BlackOp]

Thank all the defensive draft contributions to Crenell...as bad as he is at HC..he knows DL. I'm not sure who pounded on the table for Jackson though...rumor was NE wanted him. So fat Scott did what a hack GM does....

[mcaj22]

And he's mediocre in Atlanta, too. The Chiefs would also be 2-0 if they could bank on Philly and Giants shitting themselves.

aka we would be 2-0 if Matt Ryan was our QB

[BryanBusby]

aka we would be 2-0 if Matt Ryan was our QB
You have no idea how much I wanted Matt Ryan before the 08 draft.

[mcaj22]

if we drafted Matt Ryan we probably never have those god awful nightmare Fat Scott Patriots fraud tree years. What could have been.

[GloucesterChief]

They were dumb for passing on Raji, although he slumped for awhile.

Raiji, Cushing, or Orakpo would of been great.

[DaneMcCloud]

Raiji, Cushing, or Orakpo would of been great.

Matthews would have been even better, as would have Maclin

[Mav]

He still isn't worth that and wouldn't have gotten that anywhere else.


Not at all. Agreed

[Rain Man]

They were dumb for passing on Raji, although he slumped for awhile.

Thank all the defensive draft contributions to Crenell...as bad as he is at HC..he knows DL. I'm not sure who pounded on the table for Jackson though...rumor was NE wanted him. So fat Scott did what a hack GM does....

If I remember right, most of Chiefsplanet's discussions were between Aaron Curry and Mark Sanchez, with a few people promoting Raji.

The Tyson Jackson thing was perhaps the biggest curveball ever in a Chiefs draft. He wasn't even in the discussion until the day before the draft or so. I remember scoffing when I first heard it. There's no way they would reach down and take a guy who was not even in the top 20 on most boards, right? Right?

[CoMoChief]

Pretty unfair to say Fisher isn't good. Didn't he bulk up on muscle this offseason? He did the same thing last offseason and it made a remarkable difference!

WTF? LMAO

People really need to stop giving this guy excuses. He's a soft piece of garbage of a OT. The guy doesn't even need to be starting in this league. No toughness whatsoever. I fully believe he was dodging guys like Watt and Miller/Ware etc. Fully believe that 100% and the players know that too.

[CoMoChief]

Everything bad that's happened to this franchise over the last 6 yrs, I blame solely on Bernard Pollard.

If it weren't for his hit on Brady, Cassel never starts a game, never goes 10-6 w/ his time w/ the Pats and the Chiefs probably never trade for the guy. I mean talk about a trickle down effect.

Wonder what this franchise would look like today had Pollard not hit Brady low the way he did.

[Easy 6]

Really, if you look at both franchises since Jacksonville was founded, the Jaguars have 5 playoff wins, have appeared in an AFC championship game, were fairly good for about 10 years and have been pathetic for the last 10 or so years.

Pretty much the Chiefs' story since Marty arrived. Chiefs have more regular season wins, Jaguars have more postseason wins. Chiefs have more kicks in the balls when you thought they were turning the corner, Jaguars never seem to have hope. But the total misery index is about the same.

Well said.