Is this Legal??

[Amnorix]

If you go to the 1:30 mark of the video in the link below, you will see a sack by the Patriots on the Bills QB. The sack is the result of two players working in tandem. First, number 91, Jamie Collins, a LB who is standing up along the line and the guy who gets the sack. The other guy is 95, Chandler Jones, who is the one I want to focus on.

95 is down at the snap, basically opposite the left guard. Upon the snap, he drives into the center, but as he is doing so, he grabs the guard and holds on to him, pulling him into the center, and opening a gap for Collins, which the guard can't fill because Jones is holding on to him.

You can see the guard flapping his arms after the play saying he was held.

First, this seems like it should NOT be legal, but I don't think I've ever seen this called in my life. A defensive lineman "holding" an offensive lineman?

So yeah, yeah, another instance of Patriots cheating blah blah blah, but does anyone know is this is actually against the rules? Seems like it ought to be...

http://www.patriots.com/video/2015/09/23/belichick-breakdown-week-2-bills

[The Franchise]

I've never seen it before...but like you said....it should be called defensive holding.

[ChiliConCarnage]

This is what the niners did a lot with Justin Smith to free up Aldon.

There was a point where some people questioned whether Aldon Smith was that good because of it. Which was silly. Still, there was video where Justin would go forward, guard/tackle engage a bit, he grabs both jerseys and then Aldon would go flying around the edge for a freebie sack.

I found this article excerpt from 2013 with a quick search.

Justin does a very good job of getting engaged with lineman on the tackle/end stunt. He is able to grab their jersey and hold them while Aldon uses his speed to loop inside and get the sack. At times, Justin occupies both the guard and tackle giving Aldon a free run to the QB. This play has resulted in a good deal of sacks for Aldon but is not the sole reason for his success.

[Amnorix]

I've never seen it before...but like you said....it should be called defensive holding.


But is it an actual rule now? I don't think I've ever seen defensive holding on anyone other than an eligible receiver. On a GUARD? Absolutely not.

P.S., crap job by the guard to let Chandler gets his hands on him and KEEP his hands on him, completely neutralizing him. But still...

[kysirsoze]

Belichick could probably stand to button one more button on that shirt.

[ptlyon]

You know in your heart it's not legal, but given preference for so many years by the NFL, you think it might be.

Sad really.

[rabblerouser]

You know in your heart it's not legal, but given preference for so many years by the NFL, you think it might be.

Sad really.



This.

[Amnorix]

You know in your heart it's not legal, but given preference for so many years by the NFL, you think it might be.

Sad really.

This.


Well, except apparently the NIners used it all the time for Aldon Smith.

I know that I don't think it SHOULD BE legal. The question is IS IT LEGAL?

I have never in 30 years of watching football seen HOLDING AN OFFENSIVE GUARD called. Have you? Has anyone? Is there a rule against it?

[The Franchise]

A defensive player may not tackle or hold an opponent other than a runner. Otherwise, he may use his hands, arms, or body only:

(a) To defend or protect himself against an obstructing opponent.

Exception: An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent ONLY to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap clearly demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball. Within this five-yard zone, a defensive player may chuck an eligible player in front of him. A defensive player is allowed to maintain continuous and unbroken contact within the five-yard zone until a point when the receiver is even with the defender. The defensive player cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an eligible receiver in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Beyond this five-yard limitation, a defender may use his hands or arms ONLY to defend or protect himself against impending contact caused by a receiver. In such reaction, the defender may not contact a receiver who attempts to take a path to evade him.

(b) To push or pull opponent out of the way on line of scrimmage.

(c) In actual attempt to get at or tackle runner.

(d) To push or pull opponent out of the way in a legal attempt to recover a loose ball.

(e) During a legal block on an opponent who is not an eligible pass receiver.

[Quesadilla Joe]

But is it an actual rule now? I don't think I've ever seen defensive holding on anyone other than an eligible receiver. On a GUARD? Absolutely not.

P.S., crap job by the guard to let Chandler gets his hands on him and KEEP his hands on him, completely neutralizing him. But still...

The 90's Chiefs defensive line was notorious for holding, they did it so much offensive linemen had to put vaseline on their jerseys to keep from being held.

[The Franchise]

The 90's Chiefs defensive line did nothing but hold, they did it so much offensive linemen had to put vaseline on their jerseys to keep from being held.

ROFL

Don't ever quit being you.

[Red Dawg]

That is absolutely illegal. Not even in the realm of legal.

[Red Dawg]

Well, except apparently the NIners used it all the time for Aldon Smith.

I know that I don't think it SHOULD BE legal. The question is IS IT LEGAL?

I have never in 30 years of watching football seen HOLDING AN OFFENSIVE GUARD called. Have you? Has anyone? Is there a rule against it?

Really? 30 years? It's been called when caught. Holding is holding. A defensive lineman can't hold an offensive lineman from making a block. If that was legal everyone would do it every play.

[morphius]

It is illegal, and called defensive holding. They made a big deal about it a few years ago as a point of emphasis.

[jimidollar]

I do remember this being called in a game before. I don't remember the teams or exactly when though.

[notorious]

Depends on which team is doing it.

[Bob Dole]

It is legal just like clothe lining Hali is legal.

[temper11]

It is illegal but rarely called. It's why playing the offensive line is so difficult. I remember our coaches demonstrating this but emphasizing not to abuse it (do it too much) and thereby forcing officials to call it.

[digger]

The 90's Chiefs defensive line was notorious for holding, they did it so much offensive linemen had to put vaseline on their jerseys to keep from being held.
Boo this man....:mad:

[Valiant]

Illegal. But it should never be called. Offensive line hold to a tune 1000 to 1 on this.

If you let one guy do that to your 2, you need to block better.

[tooge]

In that particular play, it was flagrant and probably should have been called defensive holding. It generally doesn't occur quite like that.

[Amnorix]

Interesting. "Pull and shoot".

http://www.sdhsaa.com/Portals/0/PDFs/Officials/Football/ClassificationofHolding.pdf


Yeah, that probably should've been called. Can't imagine it gets much more flagrant. Interesting question, though, is whether any of the referees are in good position to identify that kind of foul on the interior of the line on the defensive side.

[Rain Man]

It is illegal, and called defensive holding. They made a big deal about it a few years ago as a point of emphasis.

Yeah, it seems like it mostly happens on running plays, but it's a legit call on passing plays, too.

I don't quite understand how you call it since defenders are allowed to use their hands anyway. Maybe it's the grabbing part that draws the call.

[Demonpenz]

Pulling guards used to get held all the time.

[Brock]

They're letting offensive linemen get away with a lot more than that.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

definitely not legal

[listopencil]

The 90's Chiefs defensive line was notorious for holding, they did it so much offensive linemen had to put Vaseline on their jerseys to keep from being held.

Nice.

[mdchiefsfan]

A defensive player may not tackle or hold an opponent other than a runner. Otherwise, he may use his hands, arms, or body only:

(a) To defend or protect himself against an obstructing opponent.

Exception: An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent ONLY to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap clearly demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball. Within this five-yard zone, a defensive player may chuck an eligible player in front of him. A defensive player is allowed to maintain continuous and unbroken contact within the five-yard zone until a point when the receiver is even with the defender. The defensive player cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an eligible receiver in a manner that restricts movement as the play develops. Beyond this five-yard limitation, a defender may use his hands or arms ONLY to defend or protect himself against impending contact caused by a receiver. In such reaction, the defender may not contact a receiver who attempts to take a path to evade him.

(b) To push or pull opponent out of the way on line of scrimmage.

(c) In actual attempt to get at or tackle runner.

(d) To push or pull opponent out of the way in a legal attempt to recover a loose ball.

(e) During a legal block on an opponent who is not an eligible pass receiver.

Interesting

[Mr. Flopnuts]

You know in your heart it's not legal, but given preference for so many years by the NFL, you think it might be.

Sad really.

It's football racism. #PatsPrivilege

[Mr. Flopnuts]

The 90's Chiefs defensive line was notorious for holding, they did it so much offensive linemen had to put vaseline on their jerseys to keep from being held.

ROFL holy shit! You unabashed homer!

[milkman]

I bet Knowmo has some real insight about the 90s, since he must be about 15 years old.

[cdcox]

Definitely illegal and have seen it called many times. Probably less frequently in recent years.

[RobBlake]

every single dlinemen tries to do this.. not just the pats.

[milkman]

In today's NFL, if it ain't a tackle, it ain't holding.

[patteeu]

This is a question for the premium content subforum.

[Bob Dole]

They're letting offensive linemen get away with a lot more than that.

That's why there is nearly 30 penalties a game?

[Brock]

That's why there is nearly 30 penalties a game?

There aren't nearly 30 penalties a game, unless 16 is closer to 30 than I think it is.