Should Terry Collins have relieved Harvey for Famila in the 9th?

[Deberg_1990]

Since, that's all anyone in the national media wants to talk about this morning.

Personally, I think he did the right thing and it wouldn't have mattered. The Royals would have found a way.

Thoughts?

[Silock]

He was right to send him back out, but once he allows a runner, he has to come out.

Familia never fared too well against us, though, so I'm not sure it would have mattered.

[Eleazar]

If it's a game on a Tuesday in July, you of course let Harvey try to get the complete game. If he doesn't close it out, it's not that big of a deal.

This is the world series. You're down 3-1. If something happens, your season is over. In an elimination game you go to the closer to start the 9th inning 100 times out of 100. To make the right call and then when challenged by the player to just fold up, that's pretty sad.

But the more egregious error was not going to Familia after he lets the first guy on base and brings the tying run to the plate. Even if - and Collins shouldn't have even done this, but - even if they send Harvey back out there, there is no question whatever that he comes out if anyone reaches base. You play it safe there down 3-1

Terrible decision, and I don't know how he can recover respect from his players after that. You're supposed to be leading the team, making the tough calls, and you let someone talk you out of it like that? Knowing your backs are against the wall? Knowing the way the Royals hit in the late innings and what's happened in the series so far?

[DaveNull]

Since, that's all anyone in the national media wants to talk about this morning.

Personally, I think he did the right thing and it wouldn't have mattered. The Royals would have found a way.

Thoughts?

He did the right thing. I was anxiously anticipating Familia coming in because we'd had his number throughout.

Let me media second guess that. It's a lot more satisfying than having them talk about a bum called strike or a close review.

Royals straight took this thing last night, there's no way around it.

[Silock]

I guess the real question is why not bring in DeGrom in extras?

[chiefzilla1501]

He did the right thing. I was anxiously anticipating Familia coming in because we'd had his number throughout.

Let me media second guess that. It's a lot more satisfying than having them talk about a bum called strike or a close review.

Royals straight took this thing last night, there's no way around it.

That's the key part for me. Why it wasn't an easy decision. You have a pitcher that was dominating the game. And in the bullpen you have a closer who had already blown a few saves.

If Yost had to choose in that situation between Harvey at 105 pitches or Holland, what would everyone here do?

[DaveNull]

Familia aint no Holland though.

[chiefzilla1501]

Familia aint no Holland though.

No. But he was struggling all series long. Sometimes a team just has your number. It reminds me of something like ten years ago when the Yankees decked byung Hyun Kim.

[Deberg_1990]

None of this probably matters anyways. The Mets were going to lose the series. Just a matter of when, not if.

Personally, I thought the Astros and Blue Jays were better than the Mets.

[Archie F. Swin]

Royals got a Championship, Harvey and Familia got JACK SHIT!!!

[Buehler445]

If it were me, I'd have told that puke to sit the fuck down.

But I can recognize why managers would put him back out there for 9. Hell, we did it with Cueto. But not after he walked a batter. That's just embarrassing.

[cmh6476]

If it's a game on a Tuesday in July, you of course let Harvey try to get the complete game. If he doesn't close it out, it's not that big of a deal.

This is the world series. You're down 3-1. If something happens, your season is over. In an elimination game you go to the closer to start the 9th inning 100 times out of 100. To make the right call and then when challenged by the player to just fold up, that's pretty sad.

But the more egregious error was not going to Familia after he lets the first guy on base and brings the tying run to the plate. Even if - and Collins shouldn't have even done this, but - even if they send Harvey back out there, there is no question whatever that he comes out if anyone reaches base. You play it safe there down 3-1

Terrible decision, and I don't know how he can recover respect from his players after that. You're supposed to be leading the team, making the tough calls, and you let someone talk you out of it like that? Knowing your backs are against the wall? Knowing the way the Royals hit in the late innings and what's happened in the series so far?

bingo

[cosmo20002]

Harvey was rolling. If he would have just sent him out there and those same events happened, no one would have really said anything.

But...Collins had made the decision to take Harvey out. Then he let Harvey talk him out of it. And that's why they both look like asses.

[siberian khatru]

Send him out, yank him after the walk.

Here's a question I haven't seen asked yet: Should Collins have pitched Syndergaard for a possible 2-3 innings after Niese rather than go to Reed?

[Hog Rider]

He pitched Cain the same way he did earlier, this time Cain didn't swing at the ball out of the zone. We had been striking out with only a pitch or two actually in the strike zone. Cain adjusted his approach and got the walk, which changed the outcome of the game.

[dirk digler]

Harvey was rolling. If he would have just sent him out there and those same events happened, no one would have really said anything.

But...Collins had made the decision to take Harvey out. Then he let Harvey talk him out of it. And that's why they both look like asses.

I tend to agree. I had no problem with Cueto going for his complete game so I see no issue with Harvey trying since he was pitching great. Also we hit Familia pretty good in previous games.

[BigMeatballDave]

That was an impossible situation for him.

If he sends Familia out and he blows it, he gets nailed for that decision.

It's a no-win.

[BigMeatballDave]

Sending Harvey back out was the right decision.

Well, if they had a Wade Davis, then that decision is made for you. :D

[Molitoth]

That was an impossible situation for him.

If he sends Familia out and he blows it, he gets nailed for that decision.

It's a no-win.

This.

[Eleazar]

I realize that we as Royals fans don't want to admit that the manager was stupid there because we don't want anything to detract from that win, but it's fine. We may have done just as well against Familia. We'd already beaten him twice this series. It took many, many wins to get to this point and you don't return to the Series by accident or get up 3-1 by accident. The Mets had many opportunities to put that game away and we wouldn't let them. When it came down to which team was going to pull ahead in extra innings, we not only got a run but we blew the game wide open. This team played a great series and was clearly better.

It's ok to admit Collins made a poor decision. He managed with his heart and not with his head. In an elimination game you go to the closer there every time.

[BWillie]

It was a horrible decision. I told my GF right away BEFORE they had Harvey come back in that only someone that lets emotions get in the way would bring Harvey in. And that he would be especially stupid if he allowed him to face Hosmer with a man on. And thats exactly what happened. I dont care what a guy has done all game. Any starting pitcher 100 pitches+ is worse than almost any decent reliever. It can be proven based on years and years of statistics.

In certain situations in non pivitol games during the middle of the year it would be much less egregious but this is the world series. Besides, what kind of backbone do you have if you cave in? I also don't like that Harvey was quoted as saying No way you are taking me out. I WANT This game. Its not about ego, or self accomplishments. Its about the W only

[Saul Good]

Familia is their hammer. You hand the ball to, him with a 2 run lead, and you take your chances.

[dirk digler]

So was it stupid for Ned to let Cueto go out and get his complete game in Game 2? IMHO you roll with the hot hand. :shrug:

[Lex Luthor]

So was it stupid for Ned to let Cueto go out and get his complete game in Game 2? IMHO you roll with the hot hand.

Ned was going to pull Cueto and have Davis close the game. He changed his mind when the Royals added a bunch of insurance runs in the bottom of the 8th.

[The Rick]

So was it stupid for Ned to let Cueto go out and get his complete game in Game 2? IMHO you roll with the hot hand. :shrug:
Not with a 7-1 lead. Totally different situations. Keeping Cueto out there gave the bullpen an extra night of rest.

[ChiefsCountry]

Captain Hindsight strikes again.

[Saul Good]

So was it stupid for Ned to let Cueto go out and get his complete game in Game 2? IMHO you roll with the hot hand. :shrug:

Cueto had a 6 run lead. He also wasn't coming off Tommy John surgery having already thrown 60 more innings than he had planned for the season.

[chiefzilla1501]

Familia is their hammer. You hand the ball to, him with a 2 run lead, and you take your chances.

Harvey is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Some might call him the best. Even if it was a worn out hammer, he wasn't any ordinary starter. It's not the first or last time a starter of that calibre demands the ball in the last inning. Guys like clemens and pedro did it all the time.

If Familia was the hammer all series, different story. But he already blew two saves.

[dirk digler]

Ned was going to pull Cueto and have Davis close the game. He changed his mind when the Royals added a bunch of insurance runs in the bottom of the 8th.

I remember that now, for some reason I was thinking the lead was 3-4 runs instead of 6 so my bad.

Still Harvey was dealing and we had hit Familia pretty good. I don't have a problem with it obviously :D

[HemiEd]

Terry Collins is paid to make a decision and he did, then let the player talk him out of it. He knew better and let the inmates run the asylum. He had the experience and knew he would regret it if it failed. Haha, :D it sucks to be him right now. But at least in New York he will be forgiven and nobody will every say anything about it.

[Eleazar]

Ned and Cueto weren't facing elimination with only a 2 run lead.

[chiefzilla1501]

Ned and Cueto weren't facing elimination with only a 2 run lead.

Ned had the option of a dominant closer anytime he wanted. Collins' option was a dominant closer who had already blown two saves in the world series. And for that matter, cueto pitched great, but Harvey is an mvp calibre pitcher. So in fairness, there are also reasons the comparison doesn't hold up that support Collins ' decision.

[Eleazar]

Ned had the option of a dominant closer anytime he wanted. Collins' option was a dominant closer who had already blown two saves in the world series. And for that matter, cueto pitched great, but Harvey is an mvp calibre pitcher. So in fairness, there are also reasons the comparison doesn't hold up that support Collins ' decision.

That is belied by the fact that Collins made the right decision and got talked out of it. He knew the right thing to do, but he was too weak to stand behind his decision. That's what leadership is, but when one of his players got in his face and refused to follow orders, he shrunk.

Familia saved 43 games this season and five more in the postseason. He's your closer. You go to the closer. You don't let some player cruise out there and put the tying run on base as part of an ego project.

If Collins does the right thing and Familia loses it, whatever. He put his closer in to do his job and he didn't do it. If he puts Familia in and the Mets win it, then Harvey can sulk if he wants to but the Mets have a tomorrow.

Instead he let the players overrule him and this is why there are managers. To make the right calls when emotion is involved.

[siberian khatru]

Hmm. Maybe I should change my opinion:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Matt Harvey has allowed a career*.440 OBP after throwing 100 pitches (highest among 135 qualified active pitchers): <a href="https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i">https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i</a></p>&mdash; Baseball Reference (@baseball_ref) <a href="https://twitter.com/baseball_ref/status/661219379061923840">November 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Old Dog]

He was right to send him back out, but once he allows a runner, he has to come out.


This

[BWillie]

Hmm. Maybe I should change my opinion:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Matt Harvey has allowed a career*.440 OBP after throwing 100 pitches (highest among 135 qualified active pitchers): <a href="https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i">https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i</a></p>&mdash; Baseball Reference (@baseball_ref) <a href="https://twitter.com/baseball_ref/status/661219379061923840">November 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And, this is the usual for any starting pitcher once they get to the 3rd time in the order, it even gets worse getting into the 4th time in the order. It's an epidemic in baseball to try to get the CG stat as often as managers try.

[B_Ambuehl]

As someone watching the game and rooting for the Royals my heart sunk a little when Harvey went back out cuz we hadn't done crap with him all night. I was hoping Familia would come in cuz we'd hit him pretty consistently.

[siberian khatru]

And, this is the usual for any starting pitcher once they get to the 3rd time in the order, it even gets worse getting into the 4th time in the order. It's an epidemic in baseball to try to get the CG stat as often as managers try.

Yes, but the point is Harvey was the WORST in baseball this year at that stage.

[siberian khatru]

BTW, Harvey threw 100+ pitches 15 times in the regular season.

[DaFace]

I didn't have an issue with letting Harvey come out in the 9th just to try and finish the game, but once Cain got on base, that should have been it. I was dumbfounded that they left Harvey in to face Hos in that situation.

[BWillie]

Yes, but the point is Harvey was the WORST in baseball this year at that stage.

Right, which makes the decision EVEN WORSE

[siberian khatru]

Right, which makes the decision EVEN WORSE

Yep

[chiefzilla1501]

Hmm. Maybe I should change my opinion:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Matt Harvey has allowed a career*.440 OBP after throwing 100 pitches (highest among 135 qualified active pitchers): <a href="https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i">https://t.co/LFkXv9My3i</a></p>&mdash; Baseball Reference (@baseball_ref) <a href="https://twitter.com/baseball_ref/status/661219379061923840">November 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You have to be really careful about statistics, though. Keep in mind 100+ games also includes 6 inning games where Harvey threw a ton of pitches because he didn't have his best stuff.

He had 12 games where he threw 100+ pitches. In 9 of those games, he went 7 or more innings. I'm only finding 1 game out of those 9 where he gave up an earned run in his last inning of pitching. And his record was 7-2 (with 1 of those games lost well before Harvey's last inning).

Maybe there's truth to the OPS argument. But I don't know there's definitive proof that at least in 2015 he was a liability at 100+ pitches.

[The Rick]

I didn't have an issue with letting Harvey come out in the 9th just to try and finish the game, but once Cain got on base, that should have been it. I was dumbfounded that they left Harvey in to face Hos in that situation.
This.

[King_Chief_Fan]

That is belied by the fact that Collins made the right decision and got talked out of it. He knew the right thing to do, but he was too weak to stand behind his decision. That's what leadership is, but when one of his players got in his face and refused to follow orders, he shrunk.

Familia saved 43 games this season and five more in the postseason. He's your closer. You go to the closer. You don't let some player cruise out there and put the tying run on base as part of an ego project.

If Collins does the right thing and Familia loses it, whatever. He put his closer in to do his job and he didn't do it. If he puts Familia in and the Mets win it, then Harvey can sulk if he wants to but the Mets have a tomorrow.

Instead he let the players overrule him and this is why there are managers. To make the right calls when emotion is involved.
yes:clap:

[BigRedChief]

He was right to send him back out, but once he allows a runner, he has to come out.

Familia never fared too well against us, though, so I'm not sure it would have mattered.We have this happen to us on occasion. A proven pitcher pitching will try to talk the manager into another inning. It rarely works but when it does, after the first base runner is on, they are out of there. Thats what should have happened last night.

[OnTheWarpath15]

The mistake wasn't letting Harvey go back out in the 9th, it was to let him pitch to Hosmer - a guy who was absolutely RAKING when runners were on base.

[Mike in SW-MO]

We were begging to get to the bullpen this year just like game 7 last year.

Was it wrong to leave Baumgarner in last year?

Whatever you do, it's only right if you win. Or the inverse corollary if you prefer.

[chiefzilla1501]

We were begging to get to the bullpen this year just like game 7 last year.

Was it wrong to leave Baumgarner in last year?

Whatever you do, it's only right if you win. Or the inverse corollary if you prefer.

Yup, that's the way I see it too.

The Mets lost the series largely because of their bullpen. So if their bullpen wasn't working and you have a starter who was dominating through 8, I think it was worth a shot to see if the starter could close it. The way the series was going, I think even Royals fans were a lot more nervous about Harvey on the mound even after a leadoff hit than they were about Familia. That's how good the Royals played against the Mets' best bullpen pitchers.