2016 HOF Ballot

[cmh6476]

Sweeney is a lock, amiright?


http://bbwaa.com/2015/11/2016-hof-ballot/

32 players on the ballot this year... Winner announced January 6, 2016...

They are:

Garret Anderson
Brad Ausmus
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Luis Castillo
Roger Clemens
David Eckstein
Jim Edmonds
Nomar Garciaparra
Troy Glaus
Ken Griffey Jr.
Mark Gruzielanek
Mike Hampton
Trevor Hoffman
Jason Kendall
Jeff Kent
Mike Lowell
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Mike Sweeney
Alan Trammell
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker
Randy Winn

[hometeam]

POLL

oh.. wait .. this is baseball.

no1curr

[Rain Man]

The only people I've heard of on that list have abnormally large heads and abnormally small testicles.

[J Diddy]

The only people I've heard of on that list have abnormally large heads and abnormally small testicles.Ken Griffey Jr?

[gblowfish]

Griffey, Martinez, Piazza.
All the Roiders can go inject themselves....

[KC_Connection]

Griffey, Martinez, Piazza.
All the Roiders can go inject themselves....
I'm sure those three never did anything, right? :)

[New World Order]

Mike Sweeney is the only hof on that list.

[suzzer99]

I'm sure those three never did anything, right? :)

Why would you think they did? They all had normal declines and injury rates and never looked huge.

[cosmo20002]

Sweeney is a lock, amiright?




Mike Sweeney is the only hof on that list.

Not really sure if being serious.

[cosmo20002]

The only people I've heard of on that list have abnormally large heads and abnormally small testicles.

How do you know? Not so much about the heads, but the other.

[KC_Connection]

Why would you think they did? They all had normal declines and injury rates and never looked huge.
I don't necessarily think they did, but I certainly don't rule it out for the simple fact that they were all top baseball players in an era where PED use was an epidemic.

You don't need to have big muscles or look huge to be a PED user. The many guys actually caught in baseball over the years have shown us that much.
,

[Infidel Goat]

I'm probably in the minority, but I would be willing to consider anyone who used steroids if they were only doing so when their usage wasn't actually prohibited by MLB.

I would not vote for anyone with a positive test after rules were in place to prohibit steroid use.

[Halfcan]

Griffey, Martinez, Piazza.
All the Roiders can go inject themselves....

1st I have ever heard roids and Griffey Junior spoke of.

He is a great guy, I got to meet him and have a long conversation with him once when he was in KC. He was not roided up.

Sure HOFer-one of the best players I have ever seen.

[Molitoth]

Ken Griffey Jr. Should be a lock.

[alpha_omega]

No love for McGriff...always liked the crimedog.

[penbrook]

Griffey is a lock! He played the game clean!!

[Halfcan]

No love for McGriff...always liked the crimedog.

If he did not come a few HR's short of 500 he would already be in there. Great player.

[Rain Man]

How do you know? Not so much about the heads, but the other.

Um...I think Dane told me. He's hooked into the celebrity scene.

[CoMoChief]

Griffey Jr would be the GOAT had it not been for his injury bug.

And it wouldn't even be close.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't necessarily think they did, but I certainly don't rule it out for the simple fact that they were all top baseball players in an era where PED use was an epidemic.

You don't need to have big muscles or look huge to be a PED user. The many guys actually caught in baseball over the years have shown us that much.
,

Griffey, jr. spent much of his latter career injured and still hit 600 home runs.

If he had used HGH or steroids at any point in his career to overcome injuries, he'd have 900 home runs.

[KC_Connection]

Griffey, jr. spent much of his latter career injured and still hit 600 home runs.

If he had used HGH or steroids at any point in his career to overcome injuries, he'd have 900 home runs.
A skeptic might suggest that all his injuries were indicative of steroid abuse.

[New World Order]

Griffey, jr. spent much of his latter career injured and still hit 600 home runs.

If he had used HGH or steroids at any point in his career to overcome injuries, he'd have 900 home runs.


If he took steroids he would have never played. The guy was injury prone as anyone.

[DaneMcCloud]

A skeptic might suggest that all his injuries were indicative of steroid abuse.

I completely and fully disagree.

If you look at his career numbers, games played, etc., there's no indication whatsoever of him using steroids. He was injured, missed significant time, came back healthy to play well, then got injured again, missed time, came back healthy and so on.

He wouldn't missed 70, 80, 90 games a season had he been on roid's.

[Halfcan]

If he took steroids he would have never played. The guy was injury prone as anyone.

I guess when a player goes all out on defense, runs into the wall and breaks his arm in half- that is considered injury prone. :shake:

[GloucesterChief]

Griffey, Edgar, and Hoffman should get in.

Piazza and Bagwell will get in eventually. There is a lot of above average on that list though.

[ROYC75]

Um...I think Dane told me. He's hooked into the celebrity scene.

Oh, I thought he was hooking the celebrity scene. Word has it they pay well for a bitch that will not talk.

[Infidel Goat]

1st I have ever heard roids and Griffey Junior spoke of.



I'd vote for him, but really? They covered him in the Simpsons with "nerve tonic."

http://media.giphy.com/media/KDW2VT8DOBfK8/giphy.gif

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/b/be/HatB_-_Ken_Griffey_Jr's_misfortune.png/revision/latest?cb=20100919202719

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Seriously, though. Someone make a poll.

[kccrow]

Alan Trammell deserves to be in the hall. After that I'd pick Griffey Jr. and Clemens.

[DaneMcCloud]

Alan Trammell deserves to be in the hall. After that I'd pick Griffey Jr. and Clemens.

Clemons? Fuck him. He was a steroid user.

Trammell over Griffey?

LMAO

[J Diddy]

Mike Sweeney is the only hof on that list.

This is the hof list not the disabled list.

[Eleazar]

Hoffman has to get in, at some point. Rivera will get in, Hoffman should get in.

[Great Expectations]

Junior is the only guy who'd get my vote on that list.

[Coach]

Surprised that Edgar Martinez isn't getting enough love.

[GloucesterChief]

Surprised that Edgar Martinez isn't getting enough love.

Played most of his career as a DH most likely.

[Coach]

Played most of his career as a DH most likely.

Yeah, but that shouldn't be a knock on him though. He was very good. His career line is .312/.418/.515/.933 and OPS+ of 147. His walk/strikeout ratio is very impressive.

And his overall WAR for Seattle is 2nd place in franchise history, with 68. 1st place? Griffey with 70.

[New World Order]

Surprised that Edgar Martinez isn't getting enough love.


How did the Mariners not win anything with Edgar Martinez, Griffey, Arod and Segui.

Unfucking real.

[GloucesterChief]

How did the Mariners not win anything with Edgar Martinez, Griffey, Arod and Segui.

Un****ing real.

The team got taken apart after 95.

That 95 team had: Randy Johnson, Tino Martinez, Griffey Jr, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Norm Charlton, and Jeff Nelson. Arod was a rookie and only had two playoff at bats.

[DaneMcCloud]

How did the Mariners not win anything with Edgar Martinez, Griffey, Arod and Segui.

Unfucking real.

Don't forget the Big Eunuch.

[tk13]

How did the Mariners not win anything with Edgar Martinez, Griffey, Arod and Segui.

Un****ing real.

What's funny is right after they lost Griffey, A-Rod and Randy Johnson, they won 116 games and fielded the greatest regular season team of the modern era.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Griffey
Bonds
Clemens

That should be the class.

[Molitoth]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4kasaxBLWgo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[cosmo20002]

Griffey
Bonds
Clemens

That should be the class.

Piazza should be in.

[tk13]

That's why it's a shame Bonds has this cloud over him. He would've been the best baseball player of his generation without them. Maybe he doesn't break the HR record... but he absolutely could've been a 500 HR/500 SB guy, if not more.

His strike zone recognition was unbelievable. The year he set the record with 232 walks, he had only 41 strikeouts. He only struck out 100 times in a season once, and that was his rookie year. During his prime years, you'd pitch around him and he could wait and wait... and you might only throw him one good strike in a game, and he would crush it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Piazza should be in.

Don't agree. He was an albatross behind the plate. Larry Walker actually put up more WAR over his career than Piazza, and having seen both of them play, Walker was the better ballplayer.

Piazza's right up there Jim Edmonds, Walker, and Tim Raines--Hall of the Very Good.

[cmh6476]

Seriously, though. Someone make a poll.

done, andmy votes for Sweeney and Jason kendall have been cast :clap:

[Eleazar]

People like Bonds and Clemens should have to wait for the veterans committee.

[duncan_idaho]

Don't agree. He was an albatross behind the plate. Larry Walker actually put up more WAR over his career than Piazza, and having seen both of them play, Walker was the better ballplayer.

Piazza's right up there Jim Edmonds, Walker, and Tim Raines--Hall of the Very Good.

When you look at other CF in the HoF, I think Edmonds has a pretty good case for admission. His defense + the HR + the overall offensive production.

I would vote for Bagwell, Griffey, Hoffman, Raines, and Trammell if I could vote (which I would be able to, this year, had I stayed at SN).

I would be casting a vote for Edmonds, Walker, and Piazza at some point in the future.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Apparently I'm in the minority here, but I see 13 Hall-of-Famers on this list.

Hall of Fame:

Bagwell - .297/.408/.540 career line is pretty dang impressive. Nine seasons with 30+ HR. Five seasons with 1.000+ OPS.

Bonds - This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Upstanding Citizens. Bonds is one of the most famous players of all time and clearly one of the greatest, steroids or not.

Clemens - See Bonds.

Griffey - Obvious choice. Anybody who watched the guy play realizes how great he was.

Hoffman - 601 saves. Had a 1.48 ERA in 1998, which was in the height of the steroids era.

Martinez - .312/.418/.515 career line. .933 OPS. 514 doubles. Hit over .300 ten times. Five seasons with 1.000 OPS, despite not being a huge home run hitter.

McGwire - See Bonds.

Piazza - Widely regarded as the greatest hitting catcher of all time. .308/.377/.545 line is hard to argue with.

Raines - The most underrated player on this list, in my opinion. I'm a sucker for great base-stealers, and this guy was one of the greatest ever. Fifth in MLB history with 808 SB. In 1983 he had 90 SB and was only caught 14 times. But he was also a very good and patient hitter, posting a career .294 AVG and .385 OBP. Had 1330 walks and only 966 strikeouts in his career. I don't understand how Tim Raines is not in the Hall of Fame.

Schilling - A prolific 20-year career with a 3.48 ERA and 1.14 WHIP despite playing through the height of the steroid era. Had three years with 300+ strikeouts and finished his career with more than 3000.

Sosa - See Bonds.

Wagner - One of the greatest closers of all time. 187 ERA+ was almost on Mariano Rivera level. Four seasons with sub-2.00 ERA despite playing through steroid era, including a 1.43 ERA in his final season, at age 38.

Walker - An absolutely tremendous hitter. .313/.400/.565 career line, including six seasons with a 1.000+ OPS. His .379 AVG in 1999 remains the highest AVG in an MLB season since George Brett's 1980 season.

[oldman]

Griffey, Hoffman, and Piazza. Barry Bonds should be considered the year after Pete Rose is inducted.

[BWillie]

Where is Ken Harvey on this list? He led the league in batting average for like six weeks.

[KC_Connection]

Walker should be a HOFer, but playing in Montreal and for a bad Colorado Rockies team essentially doomed his chances. He never got enough attention for how good a player he was.

[KC_Connection]

People like Bonds and Clemens should have to wait for the veterans committee.
The fact that neither of those two are actually in the HOF yet renders it little more than a joke at the moment.

[carcosa]

The fact that neither of those two are actually in the HOF yet renders it little more than a joke at the moment.

B-b-but they didn't play the game THE RIGHT WAY

[cosmo20002]

Walker should be a HOFer, but playing in Montreal and for a bad Colorado Rockies team essentially doomed his chances. He never got enough attention for how good a player he was.

But playing in Colorado is why he even has any chance at all. He put up huge numbers there. Playing in Colorado is like legal steroids for hitters.

[alnorth]

Since the poll asked who would be voted in (not who we think should be in), thats what I voted on. I'd vote at least 8, and possibly the full 10 names if the poll asked who I would vote for. (if the author of the poll was intending to ask who we would vote for, then he messed up and the poll results are invalid, because it simply says "who gets in?")

Anyway, I'm optimistically saying 3. Griffey Jr. is obviously a mortal lock. I also think Bagwell and Piazza could get in, now that a bunch of crusty inactive old writers have had their votes taken away this year.

[cmh6476]

Looks like I'm the only one who voted for Jason Kendall :(

[DJ's left nut]

Jim Edmonds isn't going to survive the first ballot - damn shame.

Some day people will stop holding CFers to the same offensive standards as corner OFers. When people look at a shortstops defense, they don't expect it to be as good as a 1bs, so why don't most CFers get a similar grading curve?

Edmonds will be the best CFer not in the HOF (and better than many that are) and he's not even going to see 2 ballots.

Incredible.

[Prison Bitch]

Edmonds had a Hall Of Very Good career. But always ask yourself this: "If I go to Cooperstown, will I spend any time at his plaque?" If the answer is no, then he's not very Fame-ous. If you're not a bit in awe of the name then you've answered the question.

[DJ's left nut]

Edmonds had a Hall Of Very Good career. But always ask yourself this: "Do I want to take a picture of his plaque or not?" If the answer is no, then he's not very Fame-ous. If you're not a bit in awe of the name then you've answered the question.

If you're a small hall guy, that's absolutely right.

In many respects, I view it similarly. That said, that's not how the BWAA does it. You're going to see a guy like Trevor Hoffman probably make it in - FFS, how does Trevor Hoffman make it in the HOF and Edmonds doesn't make the 2nd ballot?

I wouldn't have ultimately complained had he not made it in at all - but 8 GGs from CF to go with a .900 career OPS and nearly 400 HRs is a kind of all-around brilliance at a premier defensive position that maybe 20 guys in baseball history can make a claim to.

He didn't have a career that was quite long enough to make him a shoe-in, but he had a damn sight better career than Kirby fucking Puckett did. He was a more rounded, dynamic player than Andre Dawson and played key roles in more winners.

If precedent counts, Edmonds is a HOFer. At the very least, he doesn't deserve to get booted after a single year on the ballot along with guys like Mike Lowell and Mark Grudzielanek.

[Prison Bitch]

Because the typical fan doesn't follow the sport as closely as you do, that's why Trevor Hoffman is more "valued" by doofuses who turn on sports center to see him close out a game (which anyone could have).


I'd bet if you polled all 30 GM, they'd all start a team with Edmonds rather than Hoffman. By the way I was at the K when he made the David Howard catch. He got a standing O

[DrRyan]

It is pretty laughable that Griffey Jr is coming in at 81% of the vote here. He may come as close to unanimous as any player to date.

[kccrow]

Going with Griffey Jr, Piazza, and Hoffman. Raines was a close consideration.

[DJ's left nut]

Because the typical fan doesn't follow the sport as closely as you do, that's why Trevor Hoffman is more "valued" by doofuses who turn on sports center to see him close out a game (which anyone could have).


I'd bet if you polled all 30 GM, they'd all start a team with Edmonds rather than Hoffman. By the way I was at the K when he made the David Howard catch. He got a standing O

But that's the most frustrating part - shouldn't we hold the BWAA to a hell of a lot higher standard than 'the typical fan'?

These guys should know better.

I just don't get it.

[DJ's left nut]

I also don't buy that "I left him off because I could only vote for 10" bitching.

I went:

Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Edmonds
Griffey
Piazza
Raines
Schilling

I still only used 8 and that's without keeping Bonds or Clemens off and while including Schilling who I think is more borderline than Edmonds.

All you have to do is not get distracted by shiny objects (i.e. saves) and ignore guys who didn't actually play baseball (Edgar Martinez).

[Saul Good]

If Bagwell gets in before Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire, the HoF will have lost the tiny bit of credibility it may have had.

[kccrow]

Because the typical fan doesn't follow the sport as closely as you do, that's why Trevor Hoffman is more "valued" by doofuses who turn on sports center to see him close out a game (which anyone could have).


I'd bet if you polled all 30 GM, they'd all start a team with Edmonds rather than Hoffman. By the way I was at the K when he made the David Howard catch. He got a standing O

Excellent argument. If this were a poll for who should get in rather who we think will get in I'd lean very strongly towards Edmonds as one of those guys. Defense and on-base percentage matter, and Edmonds was excellent at both, plus he hit for power.

[Saul Good]

I went Piazza, Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens.

[DJ's left nut]

I went Piazza, Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, Clemens.

I want to vote for McGwire but ultimately I just don't think he'd have ever truly recovered from the lower body injuries he was dealing with in Oakland without some serious chemical help.

Without juice, he's Dale Murphy.

Without juice, Bonds is still a rich man's Andre Dawson and Clemens still puts Bob Feller's career to shame.

[KC_Connection]

If forced to pick just 10: Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Griffey, McGwire, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Walker.

Not sure why Clemens has 5 more votes than Bonds in this poll.

[DJ's left nut]

If forced to pick just 10: Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Griffey, McGwire, Mussina, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Walker.

Not sure why Clemens has 5 more votes than Bonds in this poll.

4321

[kcxiv]

If he took steroids he would have never played. The guy was injury prone as anyone.

The terrible astro turf they used to use killed his knees. If he hd played on grass whole different ballgame I think.

[blake5676]

Hoffman and Wagner don't do it for me. I have no argument/issue with Rivera getting in though. Outside him, closers are blah.

In my personal opinion, Raines is a no doubter. I have no idea how someone can look at his career and not say he's HOF worthy. Dude was a machine.

[DJ's left nut]

Career fWAR after his age 21 season:

Ken Griffey Jr: 63.3
Jim Edmonds: 64.5

For the 18 seasons from their age 22 to 40 seasons, Jim Edmonds was a better player than Griffey was.

3 seasons at the beginning of his career, when he got his 'the kid' nickname, was the difference between Griffey being the most highly supported player in HoF history and Jim Edmonds getting knocked off on the first fucking ballot.

Idiot jackasses.

[KC_Connection]

4321
Would have voted for Edmonds if not restricted to 10 (which is a nonsensical rule).

[KC Dan]

Griffey & Piazza

[DJ's left nut]

I'm going on a fucking hunger strike until the BBWAA apologizes for fucking over Jimmy Ballgame.

You'll always be a HoFer in my book, Hollywood...

[O.city]

So, Mike fucking Piazza made the HOF? Why?

Edmonds will always be HOF in my book. If he made it, his picture should be him with his dick in a hot dog bun, or maybe that was just a rumor.

[DaneMcCloud]

So, Mike fucking Piazza made the HOF? Why?

Because he played in New York and Los Angeles

[KC_Connection]

So, Mike ****ing Piazza made the HOF? Why?

Best hitting catcher ever. Why he made it on a ballot that continues to keep Bonds and Clemens out, I'm not sure, though.

[Pepe Silvia]

I don't think anyone on this list is worthy of the HOF./ Chris "Mad Dog" Russo.

[Prison Bitch]

Because he played in New York and Los Angeles

And he was the best hitter ever at his position. That cannot be ignored or downplayed. He was elite - and damn right he was FAMEous.


Griffey
Piazza
Bagwell
Mussina


Those 4 should be in. Edmonds + Raines are acceptable as well. But nobody else. And no way on Bonds or Clemens or Mac

[Prison Bitch]

But that's the most frustrating part - shouldn't we hold the BWAA to a hell of a lot higher standard than 'the typical fan'?

These guys should know better.

I just don't get it.

Actually you got me there. It is an expert decision so douche fans have no input here. I don't have any answers.

[chiefzilla1501]

Rock Raines should be in the HOF. If he's going to be docked because of his coke habit, that's just stupid.

Guy was an above average defensive player, one of the all-time best leadoff hitters and one of the best base stealers of all time.

[Coach]

Rock Raines should be in the HOF. If he's going to be docked because of his coke habit, that's just stupid.

Guy was an above average defensive player, one of the all-time best leadoff hitters and one of the best base stealers of all time.

I agree with that. He is 2nd (tied with Andre Dawson) in WAR under his time in Montreal.

I don't think all of it is from the coke habit, but I wonder some of that is due to playing in Montreal hurt his chances?

[chiefzilla1501]

And he was the best hitter ever at his position. That cannot be ignored or downplayed. He was elite - and damn right he was FAMEous.


Griffey
Piazza
Bagwell
Mussina


Those 4 should be in. Edmonds + Raines are acceptable as well. But nobody else. And no way on Bonds or Clemens or Mac

Raines should be third on that list.

Bagwell was a good hitter in a HR era playing below average defense at a throwaway position

Mussina was a good enough pitcher. But 270 wins over a long career makes the case much tougher.

[chiefzilla1501]

I agree with that. He is 2nd (tied with Andre Dawson) in WAR under his time in Montreal.

I don't think all of it is from the coke habit, but I wonder some of that is due to playing in Montreal hurt his chances?

Unfortunately, there's an obsession over HRs. I guess the argument is that he wasn't a power hitter and didn't manage 3,000+ hits.

But he's a totally different player than people are used to voting in of late. I think people forget what it was like to live in an era where guys like Raines were stealing 70+ bases a season.

[lewdog]

People really don't understand Piazza getting in?

Do you not understand position value and how that has fits into the equation?

[jonzie04]

The only people I've heard of on that list have abnormally large heads and abnormally small testicles.

ROFLROFLROFL

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Rock Raines should be in the HOF.

Absolutely. I cannot fathom how he's not already in. Amazing player.

[Deberg_1990]

Best hitting catcher ever. Why he made it on a ballot that continues to keep Bonds and Clemens out, I'm not sure, though.

did he use Roids like those two?

[DaneMcCloud]

People really don't understand Piazza getting in?

Do you not understand position value and how that has fits into the equation?

I was only half-joking. Piazza was a helluva a player but I truly wonder if he would have made it this early had he played in Milwaukee or KC.

Living in LA while hitting the Playboy Mansion every week and dating supermodels definitely raised his Q, as well as being with the Mets during the Subway series, along with regular appearances on Howard Stern (and on stage with Metallica) raised his profile greatly.

Add to that his family association with Tommy Lasorda and he was pretty hard to ignore.

[KC_Connection]

did he use Roids like those two?
I don't know, but many seem to think so.

[DaneMcCloud]

If anyone had told me 20 years ago that Mike Piazza would get into the HOF before Bonds, Clemens, Sosa or McGuire, I'd have said "You're crazy".

I think the BBWOA need an enema.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't know, but many seem to think so.

FWIW, he never had the demeanor or body or rep of anyone doing steroids.

The guy was a party animal off the field and a professional on the field.

Personally, I think it was jealousy that led to those bogus rumors.

[lewdog]

If anyone had told me 20 years ago that Mike Piazza would get into the HOF before Bonds, Clemens, Sosa or McGuire, I'd have said "You're crazy".

I think the BBWOA need an enema.

The HOF really is now a popularity contest more than anything.

[DaneMcCloud]

The HOF really is now a popularity contest more than anything.

Hence my LA & NY comment.

It sucks.

[Red Dawg]

The fact that it's not Clemons and Bonds is so effing stupid it's crazy.

What a joke the voters are.

[Red Dawg]

did he use Roids like those two?

Who fucking cares. They were never thrown out or even suspended. Their stats are all secure so what the fugg? Vote them in!

[Prison Bitch]

Who ****ing cares. They were never thrown out or even suspended. Their stats are all secure so what the fugg? Vote them in!

Nonsense.

[Prison Bitch]

Appreciating Jim Edmonds:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/appreciating-jim-edmonds/

[Eleazar]

I think they got it right with one exception, Hoffman should definitely get in.

I read that writers who haven't been active for ten years can no longer vote which explains why the roid boys got a slight increase in their votes but it appears unlikely they will get in which is awesome.

If you want to quibble about vote margins and who is a first ballot and not, I think Griffey is being overrated a bit by the fact that he was a likeable character and because he played in the steroid era but was never tainted by steroids.

People get into the hall too easily today but I think this year they got all the decisions right.

[DJ's left nut]

So, Mike fucking Piazza made the HOF? Why?

Edmonds will always be HOF in my book. If he made it, his picture should be him with his dick in a hot dog bun, or maybe that was just a rumor.

Piazza is a HoFer.

So he couldn't throw out baserunners - he played in an era where there weren't nearly as many basestealers anyway. Moreover, the rest of his defensive deficiencies are overstated. He was an average receiver and by most accounts a fine gamecaller. He did one thing poorly - throw guys out.

That's like punishing Ted Williams for not stealing bases.

Mike Piazza wasn't a 5-tool player but for several years he was among the single most dangerous hitters in baseball and managed to credibly play a position where NOBODY could hit worth a damn.

To me, the only absurdity was that he didn't make it on his first go. Piazza is one of the 10 best to ever play his position (arguably top 5). To me, that's a HoFer.

[DJ's left nut]

I think they got it right with one exception, Hoffman should definitely get in.

I read that writers who haven't been active for ten years can no longer vote which explains why the roid boys got a slight increase in their votes but it appears unlikely they will get in which is awesome.

If you want to quibble about vote margins and who is a first ballot and not, I think Griffey is being overrated a bit by the fact that he was a likeable character and because he played in the steroid era but was never tainted by steroids.

People get into the hall too easily today but I think this year they got all the decisions right.

Well that's just inaccurate.

Hoffman wasn't a better pitcher than Dan Quisenberry, he just played in an era where a stupid, arbtitrary stat came into vogue.

How any Royals fan could watch how important the 7th and 8th innings were over the last 2 years and conclude that the SV stat means much at all is completely beyond me.

Trevor Hoffman will be among the worst players in the HoF the moment he gets voted in.

[DJ's left nut]

Unfortunately, there's an obsession over HRs. I guess the argument is that he wasn't a power hitter and didn't manage 3,000+ hits.

But he's a totally different player than people are used to voting in of late. I think people forget what it was like to live in an era where guys like Raines were stealing 70+ bases a season.

The problem I have with Raines is that he wasn't a superlative defender.

The lack of power isn't really a big deal to me; some guys hit bombs, other guys get on base, steal bags and score runs when the guys that hit bombs drive them in. Offensively, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

But the fact that a power hitter can create a run on his own whereas an OBP/Speed guy needs a fair amount of help makes me need a little more defensively from the latter player. I go back and forth on Raines but ultimately the guy played a pretty easy defensive position and didn't play it particularly well.

I'll say this - if I could've had Raines speed and sub-par defense in LF or Lofton's slightly less speed but superb defense in CF, I'd take Lofton every time. Raines was a slightly better leadoff man, Lofton was the better overall player.

And Lofton also didn't see a second ballot.

Because the BWAA is full of fucking idiots that are going to put Trevor Hoffman and Jeff Bagwell in over guys who were far superior players.

[BlackHelicopters]

Who says Griffey is above reproach ?

[Garcia Bronco]

I say Bonds, Griffey, Garciaparra, Schilling, Clemens

[chiefzilla1501]

The problem I have with Raines is that he wasn't a superlative defender.

The lack of power isn't really a big deal to me; some guys hit bombs, other guys get on base, steal bags and score runs when the guys that hit bombs drive them in. Offensively, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

But the fact that a power hitter can create a run on his own whereas an OBP/Speed guy needs a fair amount of help makes me need a little more defensively from the latter player. I go back and forth on Raines but ultimately the guy played a pretty easy defensive position and didn't play it particularly well.

I'll say this - if I could've had Raines speed and sub-par defense in LF or Lofton's slightly less speed but superb defense in CF, I'd take Lofton every time. Raines was a slightly better leadoff man, Lofton was the better overall player.

And Lofton also didn't see a second ballot.

Because the BWAA is full of ****ing idiots that are going to put Trevor Hoffman and Jeff Bagwell in over guys who were far superior players.

Good point about Lofton. Didn't even think of him.

Lofton may have been a better all-around player (by the way, don't really agree that Raines was sub-par on defense. He was solid but unspectacular). But the reason Rock gets the nod over Lofton is: 1) he's been on the ballot longer; 2) Raines has a place in history as arguably the best leadoff hitter in history besides Henderson. Better power than Lofton, more than just a singles hitter (hit lots of doubles too), got on base a shit-ton, and one of the best baserunners in history -- he not only stole an elite # of bases, he was also one of the most efficient base stealers in the country. Think about this... he had a .413 OBP and when he stole 808 bases, he had an 85% chance of getting there successfully. That's almost as good as saying he had well over 1,000 doubles.

And that's a shame, because Ichiro is probably going to be a first ballot HOFer. But why? He stole half as many bases as Raines with a horrible steal efficiency, never walked, and only hit singles. Unbelievably overrated player. Which builds an even stronger case for Raines. Raines is ten times better than any leadoff hitter in today's game.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Well that's just inaccurate.

Hoffman wasn't a better pitcher than Dan Quisenberry, he just played in an era where a stupid, arbtitrary stat came into vogue.

How any Royals fan could watch how important the 7th and 8th innings were over the last 2 years and conclude that the SV stat means much at all is completely beyond me.

Trevor Hoffman will be among the worst players in the HoF the moment he gets voted in.

What's up with the Hoffman hate? So you're not impressed with saves? Look at the rest of his body of work:

1.058 WHIP - 8th in MLB history
7.0 H/9 - 7th in MLB history
9.4 K/9 - 8th in MLB history
141 ERA+ - 14th in MLB history

Why does a guy who's top 10 in multiple categories in the 100+year history of this game not get in the Hall of Fame?

[lewdog]

I don't get the Hoffman hate either. He's in on my ballot.

[DJ's left nut]

What's up with the Hoffman hate? So you're not impressed with saves? Look at the rest of his body of work:

1.058 WHIP - 8th in MLB history
7.0 H/9 - 7th in MLB history
9.4 K/9 - 8th in MLB history
141 ERA+ - 14th in MLB history

Why does a guy who's top 10 in multiple categories in the 100+year history of this game not get in the Hall of Fame?

Because he did it one inning at a time.

Explain to me how he's an appreciably better pitcher than Dan Quisenberry. Lee Smith. John Franco. Is Billy Wagner a HoFer as well now? Joe Nathan? Francisco Rodriguez?

Trevor Hoffman is nothing more than a pitcher who wasn't good enough to start so they put him in relief. He was fortunate to pitch in an era where he was never asked to do more than an inning at a time and never deployed situationally against tougher matchups. He wasn't a transcendant player. He never won a championship and he wasn't a particularly good post-season pitcher either.

He doesn't belong in the Hall.

[DJ's left nut]

I don't get the Hoffman hate either. He's in on my ballot.

How many 2-pitch pitchers with shitty stamina are you willing to put in, then?

Because again, guys like Wagner, Smith, Quisenberry, Flash Gordon, F-Rod, Joe Nathan and others have aggregate numbers that are just as strong, they just don't have the big SV number that Hoffman has. Jonathan Papelbon has been as effective a reliever as Hoffman to this point in his career and has also been a massive post-season pitcher - you excited about putting him in the HoF if he has another 5 good years?

You want to water down the Hall, putting specialty relievers in there is the fastest route to it. I'd imagine Jesse Orosco made more successful LOOGY appearances than anyone in baseball history - hey, he was the best specialty lefty in history, might as well throw him in there as well even though the only reason he was a lefty specialist is the fact that he wasn't good enough to get righties out.

[carcosa]

Sweeney got robbed!!!

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Because he did it one inning at a time.

Explain to me how he's an appreciably better pitcher than Dan Quisenberry. Lee Smith. John Franco. Is Billy Wagner a HoFer as well now? Joe Nathan? Francisco Rodriguez?

Trevor Hoffman is nothing more than a pitcher who wasn't good enough to start so they put him in relief. He was fortunate to pitch in an era where he was never asked to do more than an inning at a time and never deployed situationally against tougher matchups. He wasn't a transcendant player. He never won a championship and he wasn't a particularly good post-season pitcher either.

He doesn't belong in the Hall.

So no relief pitchers should be in the Hall of Fame?

[chiefzilla1501]

So no relief pitchers should be in the Hall of Fame?

Mariano Rivera is a surefire HOFer. Hoffman is a tough one for me. Relievers feel like punters to me. Closers are like kickers. Gotta be really, really good to crack the HOF.

[chiefzilla1501]

Here's what I think most people struggle with....
There are lots of non-HOF starters who probably would have been dominant closers. Pedro and Randy Johnson and King Felix would have been outrageous closers. The knock on closers is that you can often get away with 1 or 2 dominant pitches. Put many successful relievers as a starting pitcher and hitters are taking batting practice off you by the 3rd at bat.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Mariano Rivera is a surefire HOFer. Hoffman is a tough one for me. Relievers feel like punters to me. Closers are like kickers. Gotta be really, really good to crack the HOF.

I'm not sure Rivera and Hoffman/Wagner are as far apart as people seem to think they are. Rivera was on a much better team most of his career, so he got a lot more exposure than the other two. But if Rivera is a "surefire" Hall of Famer, it's tough for me to swallow that Hoffman and Wagner shouldn't even sniff the Hall. Most of their career numbers are pretty comparable.

[DJ's left nut]

So no relief pitchers should be in the Hall of Fame?

If they're truly transcendent, sure.

Some of the old school guys that were eating up multiple innings in fireman roles? Maybe - Sutter seems like a borderline candidate but defensible. Rivera is a no-doubter if for no other reason that a superlative post-season pedigree. Sure, he got more chances, but he was also nails when he was there. Hoffman wasn't even that good in his limited opportunities there. Besides, performance is what counts, hypothetical performance doesn't mean much. Saying that Hoffman could have been good in the playoffs with Mo's opportunities doesn't amount more than "X player could have been good had he not been injured".

Hoffman, OTOH, isn't transcendent. He was a nice reliever but again on par with dozens of other relievers that aren't anywhere near HoFers.

[DJ's left nut]

Here's what I think most people struggle with....
There are lots of non-HOF starters who probably would have been dominant closers. Pedro and Randy Johnson and King Felix would have been outrageous closers. The knock on closers is that you can often get away with 1 or 2 dominant pitches. Put many successful relievers as a starting pitcher and hitters are taking batting practice off you by the 3rd at bat.

If Terrance Gore played in an environment where 50 times/season he got a chance to pinch run and steal a base and then for 20 years he stole 40 bases a season doing nothing more than stealing that base, he still wouldn't be a damn hall of famer.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not sure Rivera and Hoffman/Wagner are as far apart as people seem to think they are. Rivera was on a much better team most of his career, so he got a lot more exposure than the other two. But if Rivera is a "surefire" Hall of Famer, it's tough for me to swallow that Hoffman and Wagner shouldn't even sniff the Hall. Most of their career numbers are pretty comparable.

I've always said Jeter was a borderline HOFer but moved way up the board because of his postseason accolades (almost identical hitting stats postseason vs. regular season, which is incredible). Mariano gets that same bump up.

But even if we're talking about Mariano being a borderline HOFer without the postseason stuff, he still edges Hoffman and Wagner. Edges Wagner because he was dominant much longer and was more consistent. Edges out Hoffman because Rivera was a dominant closer/pitcher, whereas Hoffman was just a dominant closer. Rivera as a closer is completely beyond reproach. Not a single flaw in his game.

Here's a great example of why that matters. One of the toughest relief and closer situations is bailing a team out in mid-inning. Just for perspective, Mariano threw well more than twice as many saves of 1+ innings of work than Hoffman. So Hoffman's job was basically to throw one clean inning on a blank slate. Mariano was very often asked to mop up bad situations AND close the deal.