Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

He straight up went the fuck off! I don't know if this happened this morning, or a couple of days ago but he lost his fucking shit over it! It was great. I'll try and track down something I can embed into this post. For those who saw it, did you laugh, or were you almost embarrassed for the guy?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WDvOndoDAvQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Kman34]

He straight up went the **** off! I don't know if this happened this morning, or a couple of days ago but he lost his ****ing shit over it! It was great. I'll try and track down something I can embed into this post. For those who saw it, did you laugh, or were you almost embarrassed for the guy?

A few details would be nice... what happened to make him blow his top???

[RealSNR]

A few details would be nice... what happened to make him blow his top???

McCoy had sex with his wife

[LoneWolf]

The other guys on the show were very uncomfortable. I was embarrassed for Herm.

[lewdog]

He was mad about Flop eating the whole sandwich!

[Discuss Thrower]

610 got a huge laugh out of it the other evening.

[siberian khatru]

McCoy had sex with his wife

That's the only explanation that makes sense. It was bizarre.

[Gonzo]

http://youtu.be/WDvOndoDAvQ

[Kman34]

http://youtu.be/WDvOndoDAvQ

Yeah.... Herm is pretty mad... He has a point but has to realize the world is a lot different than when he was a player...

[NewChief]

Herm is a goon. But that was hilariously awesome.

[TimBone]

http://youtu.be/WDvOndoDAvQ
Hahahahahaha...that was awesome. I was actually on board with everything he was saying...he went of the deep end towards the end, though.

[lewdog]

He's totally on point with what he said.

He just comes off a bit crazy on it though.

[Deberg_1990]

Herm is a clown. He's exactly where he needs to be instead of running another franchise into the ground.

[Mr. Laz]

Yeah.... Herm is pretty mad... He has a point but has to realize the world is a lot different than when he was a player...

different doesn't mean better

[kccrow]

Absolutely spot on. Love Herm. Would have loved to see him as a GM, definite eye for talent but didn't know how to coach it up.

[Discuss Thrower]

Absolutely spot on. Love Herm. Would have loved to see him as a GM, definite eye for talent but didn't know how to coach it up.

Careful, given the FO guys who got credit for the good players drafted under Herm's tenure are running the show in Cleveland..

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm is a clown. He's exactly where he needs to be instead of running another franchise into the ground.

Herm didn't run the franchise into the ground. It's hilarious that people actually think that.

[Mr. Flopnuts]

A few details would be nice... what happened to make him blow his top???

Sorry bud. I was going to get the video and get it posted, and got sidetracked. Thanks to Gonzo for making it easy for me. OP updated now.

[Yellow tux]

Loser coach. Would have been perfect as a loser college coach where he could treat players like kids and do his rah rah coachspeak

[srvy]

I can never tell if Herm is serious. It just seems to me he gets on a rant and it just snowball. I don't even think he knows whats going to come out. Its like a rapper Herm was Rappin.

[wazu]

What an ass.

[Iconic]

You know there's actually a lot of wisdom in what Herm said. 3:40 onward is nice. Basically find a bigger purpose than just yourself.

[TribalElder]

Holy shit herm went crackhead on them

[Rain Man]

Wow. Herm took a stand. And get out of his yard.

[Indian Chief]

Passionate, yes, but hardly crazy. I like it.

[Dayze]

The coverage of the NFL is like reality TV. From its broadcast, to storylines on ESPN And NFLN etc. add in social media, and it's one reason why the NFL is on its way to becoming a shit product. I think it's there already.

The national games, especially SNF blows ass IMO. (Off topic but I had to get that off my chest lol)

[Otter]

I would have used a Kim Kardashian (sp?) analogy and how the media focuses on the lowest common denominator. He had a point just very poorly executed delivery.</br></br>And screw Herm. He's a dumbass that dragged an entire team down to his level of stupidity.

[Discuss Thrower]

The coverage of the NFL is like reality TV. From its broadcast, to storylines on ESPN And NFLN etc. add in social media, and it's one reason why the NFL is on its way to becoming a shit product. I think it's there already.

The national games, especially SNF blows ass IMO. (Off topic but I had to get that off my chest lol)

College football is hands down a much better product from Week 1 to the Playoff championship.

NFL Football only matches that good level from the divisional playoff rounds on.. and even then..

[Dayze]

College football is hands down a much better product from Week 1 to the Playoff championship.

NFL Football only matches that good level from the divisional playoff rounds on.. and even then..

Yep. 100% agree

[Dylan]

According to Jeff Lane of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Chip Kelly called LeSean McCoy and McCoy hung up on him. Chip Kelly denies calling McCoy:



Philly Inquirer - According to sources, Chip Kelly tried to call McCoy this week, but once he identified himself, McCoy hung up
McCoy initially didn't want to go to the Bills. He found out about the trade from his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, by phone. McCoy was training in Miami at the time and after breaking down in tears, he resumed running a series of sprints, each one faster than the next.

Kelly lamented how the news of the trade was relayed to McCoy. An ESPN reporter broke the story before Kelly had an opportunity to tell the running back himself. Kelly eventually tried to reach McCoy, but the calls were never answered.

He tried again on Tuesday, according to sources with knowledge of the call. McCoy didn't recognize the number and answered. When Kelly identified himself, McCoy hung up. On Wednesday, McCoy said he stood by offseason comments he made about Kelly's not respecting stars and getting rid of all the "good black players."

"I know he was pissed, and he should be pissed, rightly so," Kelly said.
McCoy was also upset that it took so long for Lurie to call after the trade. Even before the 2014 season, when asked about his chances of suffering the same fate as DeSean Jackson, McCoy had referred to his close relationship with Lurie.

McCoy has said he loved being an Eagle. He grew up in Harrisburg. He was drafted and developed by the team. He became the franchise's all-time leader in rushing yards. He was the alpha dog of the locker room.
"A lot of my good friends are still on that team," McCoy said.


http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20151213_McCoy_a_better_fit_for_Eagles__and_not_just_on_the_field.html


PFT: Chip Kelly denies calling LeSean McCoy
After Sunday’s win over the Bills, Kelly denied that it happened. He didn’t deny the report within the context of a question about that specific topic; instead, he was asked whether the various questions about issues unrelated to the playing of the game created a distraction.

“[A] lot of it to me is tabloid journalism that they just tried to stir things up but it didn’t affect us,” Kelly said. “I mean, we were playing the Buffalo Bills and a really well coached team by Rex Ryan that has a lot of really good players. But when people want to make up false stories about me calling someone during the week and them hanging up on me, I just think people are trying to get Twitter hits and things like that and make themselves significant when stuff doesn’t happen.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/13/chip-kelly-denies-calling-lesean-mccoy/

Clip prior to the game, McCoy and Eagles owner Jeffery Lurie hugged midfield.

[HonestChieffan]

Herm sucked as coach. But he nailed this.

[Buehler445]

ROFL @ Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Fucking Cunt Edwards railing on motherfuckers for being a professional. Fuck that motherfucker. JFC. He should look in the mirror and realize that he's a professional analyst and he just lost his shit on national television.

Someone should point out to him that he was a fucking professional coach when he lost his shit and Hollered YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME at, albeit douchey NY media.

Someone should point out to him that he was a fucking professional coach when he was too damn dumb to realize you needed to score points and slung shit on the previous regime and their "circus offense".

Fuck this motherfucking pile of fucking shit and his "DON'T PUSH SEND shtick. Fuck him for grandstanding about professionalism when he doesn't goddamn know enough football to be a goddamned analyst without running a worthless assed dumbshit clown shtick.

But most importantly, fuck that motherfucker for taking a proud, professional franchise and turning it into a joke. The Pioli Reich was technically worse, but it didn't hurt as much because Herm already made the thing a joke. Just a fucking joke. For the first time in my life the Chiefs entered games with no chance to win. At all. FFS, he went and got a 5'8 undrafted WR and rand him out at QB and tried to run the read option. FOR MULTIPLE DRIVES.

This fucking cocksucking motherfucking bitch ass cunt killed my franchise. Fuck him.

/rant

[chiefzilla1501]

I would have used a Kim Kardashian (sp?) analogy and how the media focuses on the lowest common denominator. He had a point just very poorly executed delivery.</br></br>And screw Herm. He's a dumbass that dragged an entire team down to his level of stupidity.

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

[chiefzilla1501]

ROFL @ Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of ****ing **** Edwards railing on mother****ers for being a professional. **** that mother****er. JFC. He should look in the mirror and realize that he's a professional analyst and he just lost his shit on national television.

Someone should point out to him that he was a ****ing professional coach when he lost his shit and Hollered YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME at, albeit douchey NY media.

Someone should point out to him that he was a ****ing professional coach when he was too damn dumb to realize you needed to score points and slung shit on the previous regime and their "circus offense".

**** this mother****ing pile of ****ing shit and his "DON'T PUSH SEND shtick. **** him for grandstanding about professionalism when he doesn't goddamn know enough football to be a goddamned analyst without running a worthless assed dumbshit clown shtick.

But most importantly, **** that mother****er for taking a proud, professional franchise and turning it into a joke. The Pioli Reich was technically worse, but it didn't hurt as much because Herm already made the thing a joke. Just a ****ing joke. For the first time in my life the Chiefs entered games with no chance to win. At all. FFS, he went and got a 5'8 undrafted WR and rand him out at QB and tried to run the read option. FOR MULTIPLE DRIVES.

This ****ing cocksucking mother****ing bitch ass **** killed my franchise. **** him.

/rant

He killed this franchise?

Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

Unbelievable, the shit people believe around here

[DaNewGuy]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

True no one shot themselves in front of Herm. He has that going for him

[Strongside]

I mean, he wasn't wrong.

[Buehler445]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

Someone in the organization managed to draft some playmakers.

That doesn't mean Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards isn't a pile of fucking ass coach.

[Brock]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

He wasn't even an adequate gameday coach.

[Discuss Thrower]

Someone in the organization managed to draft some playmakers.

That doesn't mean Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards isn't a pile of fucking ass coach.

It surely doesn't look like it was Kuharich and Denny Thum anymore given how bad Cleveland is.

[chiefzilla1501]

Someone in the organization managed to draft some playmakers.

That doesn't mean Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards isn't a pile of ****ing ass coach.

I don't care how good or bad he was as a coach. He made bold moves that were badly needed. He handed over a franchise in terrific shape before Pioli ****ed it up. So the team was better because Herm was there. The poor gameday coaching... that's not something Herm left behind with the team.

[Buehler445]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

Made the team better?

2005 Vermiel 10-6
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 2-14

Come the fuck on man. You can bark about DVs guys getting old or whatever, but if he made it better he wouldn't have ended up 2-14. If he were so good at personnel, he could have put enough guys together in 3 fucking years that could win more than 2 goddamned games. FFS.

[Buehler445]

It surely doesn't look like it was Kuharich and Denny Thum anymore given how bad Cleveland is.

Who is saying they did a good job?

The team was total fuck. For every Jamaal Charles there were 20 fucking guys that didn't belong in the league. Remember when we'd cut a guy and never hear the name again? Now the NFL is full of ex-Chiefs.

Building a team isn't about hitting homeruns like Charles. They sure don't hurt, but you can't hit .050 but jack homers and expect to play major league ball.

The team was shit when we "built through the draft."

[chiefzilla1501]

Made the team better?

2005 Vermiel 10-6
2006 9-7
2007 4-12
2008 2-14

Come the **** on man. You can bark about DVs guys getting old or whatever, but if he made it better he wouldn't have ended up 2-14. If he were so good at personnel, he could have put enough guys together in 3 ****ing years that could win more than 2 goddamned games. FFS.

Right. That has nothing to do with Carl Peterson and DV criminally mismanaging the team so that the team was a sinking Titanic after DV left. Vermeil left the team ridiculously old, in horrendous salary cap shape, and with literally less than a handful of players under 30 who even belonged on an NFL roster.

[Buehler445]

Right. That has nothing to do with Carl Peterson and DV criminally mismanaging the team so that the team was a sinking Titanic after DV left. Vermeil left the team ridiculously old, in horrendous salary cap shape, and with literally less than a handful of players under 30 who even belonged on an NFL roster.

Yeah, and when Herm was done, there were like 8 good guys and probably 40 that didn't belong on a roster.

He didn't fucking make the team better. He was a shit personnel man. He was a shit coach. He is a shit analyst.

Fuck him.

[Buehler445]

I don't care how good or bad he was as a coach. He made bold moves that were badly needed. He handed over a franchise in terrific shape before Pioli ****ed it up. So the team was better because Herm was there. The poor gameday coaching... that's not something Herm left behind with the team.

Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kansas_City_Chiefs_season#Roster)

I bolded the guys that are worthy of an NFL roster. THAT, sir, is criminal mismanagement. Dorsey is building a hell of a lot deeper team that was (is) in cap hell and doing it with quality dudes.

If Herm was a great personnel guy he could have done better than this fucking horse fucking shit.

I'll say it again, for the first time in my life, we entered games that we had no chance to win. That shit is on Herm.


Chiefs Final Roster

IR
12 Brodie Croyle QB (IR) Injury
51 J. P. Darche LS (IR) Injury
59 Donnie Edwards OLB (IR) Injury
11 Damon Huard QB (IR) Injury
97 Brian Johnston DE (IR) Injury
31 Maurice Leggett CB (IR) Injury
90 Turk McBride DE (IR) Injury
21 Kolby Smith RB (IR) Injury

QB
8 Quinn Gray
4 Tyler Thigpen

RB
26 Jackie Battle
25 Jamaal Charles
42 Mike Cox FB
27 Larry Johnson

WR
82 Dwayne Bowe
83 Mark Bradley
89 Devard Darling
85 Will Franklin
14 Kevin Robinson KR/PR
80 Jeff Webb

TE
87 Brad Cottam
88 Tony Gonzalez
45 Michael Merritt

OL
76 Branden Albert T
71 Andrew Carnahan T
73 Adrian Jones G
77 Damion McIntosh T
64 Rudy Niswanger C
67 Barry Richardson T
74 Wade Smith G/C
75 Herb Taylor T
65 Tavares Washington G/T
54 Brian Waters G

DL
94 Jason Babin DE
70 Alfonso Boone DE/DT
72 Glenn Dorsey DT
95 Ron Edwards DT
92 Wallace Gilberry DE
91 Tamba Hali DE
69 Derek Lokey DT
96 Andy Studebaker DE
93 Tank Tyler DT

LB
50 Rocky Boiman OLB/ILB
57 Weston Dacus ILB
52 Curtis Gatewood OLB
56 Derrick Johnson ILB
55 Pat Thomas ILB
53 Demorrio Williams OLB

DB
39 Brandon Carr CB
35 Oliver Celestin SS
30 Ricardo Colclough CB
24 Brandon Flowers CB
34 David Macklin CB
47 Jon McGraw FS
38 DaJuan Morgan SS
44 Jarrad Page FS
49 Bernard Pollard SS
23 Patrick Surtain CB

ST
5 Connor Barth K
2 Dustin Colquitt P
48 Thomas Gafford LS

[Eleazar]

"shady" is the stupidest nickname ever, why do people use it like it's his first name?

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah, and when Herm was done, there were like 8 good guys and probably 40 that didn't belong on a roster.

He didn't ****ing make the team better. He was a shit personnel man. He was a shit coach. He is a shit analyst.

**** him.

If Pioli never took over, we'd have:
QB - a shit QB
RB - Charles, Jackie Battle
TE - Tony Gonzalez (pre-Herm)
WR - Dwayne Bowe / Shit #2 and #3 receivers
LT - Branden Albert
RT - Barry Richardson
LG - Brian Waters
C - Wade Smith
RG - Brian de la Puente

-------

Defense
DE - Tamba Hali
DE - Jason Babin / Gilberry (had a shot at Orakpo in the next draft)
DTs - Turk, Tank, Ron Edwards, Alfonso Boone
CB - Carr / Flowers
Safeties - Pollard / Page
LBs - DJ, shit, Donnie Edwards
K - Connor Barth
P - Colquitt
LS - Gafford

Almost all of these players were brought in during the Herm era. More importantly, most of these guys only got playing time because Herm demanded to Peterson to stop bringing in shitty band-aid veterans.

And he did all of this while completely unable to spend any money because of the disastrous cap situation we had. Can you imagine if we had this roster, actual free agent $'s to spend, and a QB?

[Buehler445]

If Pioli never took over, we'd have:
QB - a shit QB
RB - Charles, Jackie Battle
TE - Tony Gonzalez (pre-Herm)
WR - Dwayne Bowe / Shit #2 and #3 receivers
LT - Branden Albert
RT - Barry Richardson
LG - Brian Waters
C - Wade Smith
RG - Brian de la Puente

-------

Defense
DE - Tamba Hali
DE - Jason Babin / Gilberry (had a shot at Orakpo in the next draft)
DTs - Turk, Tank, Ron Edwards, Alfonso Boone
CB - Carr / Flowers
Safeties - Pollard / Page
LBs - DJ, shit, Donnie Edwards
K - Connor Barth
P - Colquitt
LS - Gafford

Almost all of these players were brought in during the Herm era. More importantly, most of these guys only got playing time because Herm demanded to Peterson to stop bringing in shitty band-aid veterans.

And he did all of this while completely unable to spend any money because of the disastrous cap situation we had. Can you imagine if we had this roster, actual free agent $'s to spend, and a QB?

Look at the 2008 Chiefs I posted. That was a shit team with shit depth. It wasn't a good team. It wasn't a good situation.

Yes, Pioli is the worst possible solution, but Herm was a fucking joke. He made the Chiefs a joke for the first time in my life. And he did so while telling everyone how smart he was. Fuck him.

[Dayze]

"shady" is the stupidest nickname ever, why do people use it like it's his first name?

Agree. Probably the same reason there are so many gay nicknames and how nearly every player has some retarded WWE signature celebratory move they do after they make routine plays, that the camera zooms in on instantaneously after the play.

[headsnap]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

Herm made me realize that there are actually better things to do on a Sunday afternoon than watching football...


don't know whether to curse him or thank him...

[chiefzilla1501]

Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kansas_City_Chiefs_season#Roster)

I bolded the guys that are worthy of an NFL roster. THAT, sir, is criminal mismanagement. Dorsey is building a hell of a lot deeper team that was (is) in cap hell and doing it with quality dudes.

If Herm was a great personnel guy he could have done better than this ****ing horse ****ing shit.

I'll say it again, for the first time in my life, we entered games that we had no chance to win. That shit is on Herm.


Chiefs Final Roster

IR
12 Brodie Croyle QB (IR) Injury
51 J. P. Darche LS (IR) Injury
59 Donnie Edwards OLB (IR) Injury
11 Damon Huard QB (IR) Injury
97 Brian Johnston DE (IR) Injury
31 Maurice Leggett CB (IR) Injury
90 Turk McBride DE (IR) Injury
21 Kolby Smith RB (IR) Injury

QB
8 Quinn Gray
4 Tyler Thigpen

RB
26 Jackie Battle
25 Jamaal Charles
42 Mike Cox FB
27 Larry Johnson

WR
82 Dwayne Bowe
83 Mark Bradley
89 Devard Darling
85 Will Franklin
14 Kevin Robinson KR/PR
80 Jeff Webb

TE
87 Brad Cottam
88 Tony Gonzalez
45 Michael Merritt

OL
76 Branden Albert T
71 Andrew Carnahan T
73 Adrian Jones G
77 Damion McIntosh T
64 Rudy Niswanger C
67 Barry Richardson T
74 Wade Smith G/C
75 Herb Taylor T
65 Tavares Washington G/T
54 Brian Waters G

DL
94 Jason Babin DE
70 Alfonso Boone DE/DT
72 Glenn Dorsey DT
95 Ron Edwards DT
92 Wallace Gilberry DE
91 Tamba Hali DE
69 Derek Lokey DT
96 Andy Studebaker DE
93 Tank Tyler DT

LB
50 Rocky Boiman OLB/ILB
57 Weston Dacus ILB
52 Curtis Gatewood OLB
56 Derrick Johnson ILB
55 Pat Thomas ILB
53 Demorrio Williams OLB

DB
39 Brandon Carr CB
35 Oliver Celestin SS
30 Ricardo Colclough CB
24 Brandon Flowers CB
34 David Macklin CB
47 Jon McGraw FS
38 DaJuan Morgan SS
44 Jarrad Page FS
49 Bernard Pollard SS
23 Patrick Surtain CB

ST
5 Connor Barth K
2 Dustin Colquitt P
48 Thomas Gafford LS

Pretty liberal use of the bold.
Wade Smith, De la Puenta, Barth, Gafford were legit starters
Page, Turk, Tank, Studebaker, Battle, Richardson played decently long NFL careers after they left KC
Ron Edwards, McGraw, and Alfonso Boone were adequate at the time
17 players acquired through the draft or free agency with about 10 of them being legit NFL starters in just 3 years? How unreasonable are your expectations?

The other thing you fail to mention is... how many of Vermeil's guys were still legit NFL players in 2008? DJ, Waters, Gonzalez, Tony Richardson, Surtain. FIVE. DJ was the only guy in that entire group who was under 30. So yeah, when you have to build a 53 man roster and you literally have 1 young guy and 4 old farts to work with and $0 to spend, how reasonable is it for any coach to turn that roster over in 3 years?

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm made me realize that there are actually better things to do on a Sunday afternoon than watching football...


don't know whether to curse him or thank him...

Herm took a huge risk by tearing the team completely apart. He cleaned up a really horrendous cap situation. He forced out a bunch of veterans and forced a much needed youth movement. And he did both of those things completely over Carl Peterson's head.

He inherited an unbelievable mess and set up an incredible situation or Pioli. So yeah... curse him for not being a good coach, but he deserves a ton of thanks for really bold and smart roster moves.

[DaNewGuy]

I forgot all about Battle he was nice

[milkman]

Carl Peterson and Dick Vermeil left this team in a shithole.

They just didn't start digging out of that shithole until John Dorsey showed up.

[chiefzilla1501]

Carl Peterson and Dick Vermeil left this team in a shithole.

They just didn't start digging out of that shithole until John Dorsey showed up.

When Pioli started, the team had a really good nucleus of young players, a really clean cap situation, and a #3 pick in the draft. If Dorsey took over in 2009, he could have dug the Chiefs pretty far out of the hole in one season.

[Buehler445]

Pretty liberal use of the bold.
Wade Smith, De la Puenta, Barth, Gafford were legit starters
Page, Turk, Tank, Studebaker, Battle, Richardson played decently long NFL careers after they left KC
Ron Edwards, McGraw, and Alfonso Boone were adequate at the time
17 players acquired through the draft or free agency with about 10 of them being legit NFL starters in just 3 years? How unreasonable are your expectations?

The other thing you fail to mention is... how many of Vermeil's guys were still legit NFL players in 2008? DJ, Waters, Gonzalez, Tony Richardson, Surtain. FIVE. DJ was the only guy in that entire group who was under 30. So yeah, when you have to build a 53 man roster and you literally have 1 young guy and 4 old farts to work with and $0 to spend, how reasonable is it for any coach to turn that roster over in 3 years?

My expectation is that you should have about 45 guys that are legit players. Dorsey can do it, why can't Herm? There are a shitton of guys getting jobs after chiefs now than back then.

And 5 guys? are you kidding me?

Colquitt is still with the Chiefs
LJ played until 2011. Probably would have played longer if your BFF wouldn't have killed him.
Jared Allen is still in the league
Jordan Black played until 2012
Weigman played until 2011
Chris Griffin played until 2010
Keyeron Fox played until 2012
Trent Green played until 2008
Todd Collins played until 2010
Boomer Grigsby played until 2008
Dante Hall played until 2008
Sammy Knight played until 2008.
Kawika Mitchell played until 2010 (and started and won a Super Bowl)
Benny Sapp played until 2011
Sims played until 2010
Gary Still played until 2008
Tynes played until 2012 (and won a Super Bowl) before he almost died
Jimmy Wilkerson played until 2011
Kris Wilson played until 2011


Kendrell Bell made it until 2007
Jason Dunn hung around until 2007
Eric Hicks played until 2007
Greg Wesley played until 2007

According to your metrics, Herm inherited 20 serviceable players and left with 17 (your number not mine)

Dude was shit. At everything. Just because Charles, Hali, Albert came around under his term doesn't mean he wasn't shit.

DV was shit and he gave us DJ and Colquitt.

Pioli was shit and we got Berry and Houston.

A couple good picks doesn't dismiss leaving the team a total shitfest.

EDIT: Link (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2005)

You can click on a player and view their career.

[Buehler445]

Pretty liberal use of the bold.
Wade Smith, De la Puenta, Barth, Gafford were legit starters
Page, Turk, Tank, Studebaker, Battle, Richardson played decently long NFL careers after they left KC
Ron Edwards, McGraw, and Alfonso Boone were adequate at the time
17 players acquired through the draft or free agency with about 10 of them being legit NFL starters in just 3 years? How unreasonable are your expectations?

The other thing you fail to mention is... how many of Vermeil's guys were still legit NFL players in 2008? DJ, Waters, Gonzalez, Tony Richardson, Surtain. FIVE. DJ was the only guy in that entire group who was under 30. So yeah, when you have to build a 53 man roster and you literally have 1 young guy and 4 old farts to work with and $0 to spend, how reasonable is it for any coach to turn that roster over in 3 years?

And since you made me look, here are your guys that are "good"


LINK (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2008)

Wade Smith Played until 2014. Legit.
De La Puenta I didn't find him on the roster on the link.
Barth Still in the league but was horrid. Nobody whined about him leaving
Gafford Still in the league. Legit.
Page played until 2011, but never stayed more than a year, marginal at best
Turk played until 2012. I had no idea. I thought he was done after he went back to Goonther. Legit.
Tank Out of the league after 2009. NOT legit
Studebaker played until 2014, probably legit player
Battle Legit.
Richardson played until 2013, probably a legit player
Ron Edwards Played until 2012, but played 0 snaps in 2011. Not sure he's all world.
McGraw played until 2011, barely snuck in there.
Boone Played until 2010, didn't make the 3 year window that you held DVs guys to.

Take out De Le Puenta, Barth, Tank, and Boone. that leaves Team Herm with 13 guys and Team DV with 20 dudes that played 3 years.

And DV was the one that sold out to win.

[thabear04]

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xft1/t50.2886-16/12352592_1539840939667896_1679585884_n.mp4

[chiefzilla1501]

My expectation is that you should have about 45 guys that are legit players. Dorsey can do it, why can't Herm? There are a shitton of guys getting jobs after chiefs now than back then.

And 5 guys? are you kidding me?

Colquitt is still with the Chiefs
LJ played until 2011. Probably would have played longer if your BFF wouldn't have killed him.
Jared Allen is still in the league
Jordan Black played until 2012
Weigman played until 2011
Chris Griffin played until 2010
Keyeron Fox played until 2012
Trent Green played until 2008
Todd Collins played until 2010
Boomer Grigsby played until 2008
Dante Hall played until 2008
Sammy Knight played until 2008.
Kawika Mitchell played until 2010 (and started and won a Super Bowl)
Benny Sapp played until 2011
Sims played until 2010
Gary Still played until 2008
Tynes played until 2012 (and won a Super Bowl) before he almost died
Jimmy Wilkerson played until 2011
Kris Wilson played until 2011


Kendrell Bell made it until 2007
Jason Dunn hung around until 2007
Eric Hicks played until 2007
Greg Wesley played until 2007

According to your metrics, Herm inherited 20 serviceable players and left with 17 (your number not mine)

Dude was shit. At everything. Just because Charles, Hali, Albert came around under his term doesn't mean he wasn't shit.

DV was shit and he gave us DJ and Colquitt.

Pioli was shit and we got Berry and Houston.

A couple good picks doesn't dismiss leaving the team a total shitfest.

EDIT: Link (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2005)

You can click on a player and view their career.

Your hate for Herm is blinding you to the fact that Herm inherited one of the worst team situations in our modern era. Almost every player was over 30, we were in salary cap hell for several years, and we had 3 players under 30 worth a damn. It wasn't just bad. It was a disaster. Stop playing it off as anything better than that.

We ended the Herm era with an almost immaculate cap. A core of 10 or so players well under 30 who ended up having excellent NFL careers. And by the way, even building almost entirely from scratch, I think you're forgetting that we made the playoffs in 2010 off of pretty much Herm's roster behind a terrible QB (minus Waters, Gonzalez, De la Puente, Page, Wade Smith, Babin, all of whom were upgrades over the players Pioli replaced them with). Had Dorsey taken over instead of Pioli... with one solid QB pickup, a good 2009 draft, and an effective spending of a lot of money we had in 2009... Not to mention not forcing a 3-4 when we had 4-3 personnel... we would have been a really good team.

[Buehler445]

Your hate for Herm is blinding you to the fact that Herm inherited one of the worst team situations in our modern era. Almost every player was over 30, we were in salary cap hell for several years, and we had 3 players under 30 worth a damn. It wasn't just bad. It was a disaster. Stop playing it off as anything better than that.

We ended the Herm era with an almost immaculate cap. A core of 10 or so players well under 30 who ended up having excellent NFL careers. And by the way, even building almost entirely from scratch, I think you're forgetting that we made the playoffs in 2010 off of pretty much Herm's roster behind a terrible QB (minus Waters, Gonzalez, De la Puente, Page, Wade Smith, Babin, all of whom were upgrades over the players Pioli replaced them with). Had Dorsey taken over instead of Pioli... with one solid QB pickup, a good 2009 draft, and an effective spending of a lot of money we had in 2009... Not to mention not forcing a 3-4 when we had 4-3 personnel... we would have been a really good team.

Hey man. The three year thing was your deal, not mine. I'm not saying it wasn't a cluster fuck when DV left.

What you are missing is that Herms team was just as horrible. Give a guy 3 years that's 21 base picks. Especially if they're high ones like Herm got because he was fucking horrible you should be able to pull a nucleus of decent talent. But 10 guys don't win. The 2 wins are evidence of that. If this team wasn't a total fucking tire fire it would have won far more than 2 games. I bet you can go through about any team and find a few guys that you can build around. But it takes something better than awful at every position on the field and Herm wasn't able to get that done in 3 years. Dorsey did it in 1. He wrecked the cap to do it but he put Together some guys that can play.

Herm drafted a few stars. So did Pioli and nobody besides the local Pats trash is clamoring to his defense. Herm was a fucking disaster. His team had less dudes that went on to play 3 years than DV did by your own count. And DV sold out to win. I'm not blinded by Herm hate anymore than you are blinded because you are enamored with a few stars he stumbled into despite being remarkably incompetent at every single aspect of his job as head coach. That is all despite the fact that crediting Herm with the acquisition of all those guys is beyond a stretch.

[chiefzilla1501]

And since you made me look, here are your guys that are "good"


LINK (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2008)

Wade Smith Played until 2014. Legit.
De La Puenta I didn't find him on the roster on the link.
Barth Still in the league but was horrid. Nobody whined about him leaving
Gafford Still in the league. Legit.
Page played until 2011, but never stayed more than a year, marginal at best
Turk played until 2012. I had no idea. I thought he was done after he went back to Goonther. Legit.
Tank Out of the league after 2009. NOT legit
Studebaker played until 2014, probably legit player
Battle Legit.
Richardson played until 2013, probably a legit player
Ron Edwards Played until 2012, but played 0 snaps in 2011. Not sure he's all world.
McGraw played until 2011, barely snuck in there.
Boone Played until 2010, didn't make the 3 year window that you held DVs guys to.

Take out De Le Puenta, Barth, Tank, and Boone. that leaves Team Herm with 13 guys and Team DV with 20 dudes that played 3 years.

And DV was the one that sold out to win.

DV had 20 expensive dudes who barely made it 3 years. Most of them miraculously made it well past 35, which is the only reason your argument at all works. And the majority of those guys were garbage by the year 2008.

Herm brought in 10 or so guys who had excellent careers, costed nothing, and most of whom are still relevant almost 10 years later. And he barely spent any money (except for Carl's dumbass moves). Pioli was gifted one hell of a roster situation. Meaning given the situation Herm was put in, he left the team in a really good place. Don't blame him for Pioli fucking it up.

[Buehler445]

DV had 20 expensive dudes who barely made it 3 years. Most of them miraculously made it well past 35, which is the only reason your argument at all works. And the majority of those guys were garbage by the year 2008.

Herm brought in 10 or so guys who had excellent careers, costed nothing, and most of whom are still relevant almost 10 years later. And he barely spent any money (except for Carl's dumbass moves). Pioli was gifted one hell of a roster situation. Meaning given the situation Herm was put in, he left the team in a really good place. Don't blame him for Pioli fucking it up.

Dude. No. That 3 year deal was your thing. Not mine. Don't whine to me when it doesn't fuckin work.

DV sold out to win. Herm was team building. If He was worth half a fuck at it he'd have way more guys that played 3 years than DV did. If you have 3 years and come up with 17 guys that are worthy of a roster spot (your number not mine) then you are terrible at building a team. That's not even fucking sustainable. It would take you 10 years to build a roster that was worth a fuck. Most player careers aren't 10 years. And don't give me any bottom 20 bullshit. Several of the guys you listed are bottom 20 players. Herms success rate is a 10 year plan. That's horrid.

Like I said. He got a few decent dudes. Almost every team has a few decent guys on it. That doesn't mean e did this franchise any good. You could have picked any personnel man and he could have found you a few decent players. Probably would have been able to do so without making the franchise a joke.

Herm made the franchise a joke. Not Pioli. He didn't do fuckall to fix it. But Herm made it a joke.

[FloridaMan88]

DV had 20 expensive dudes who barely made it 3 years. Most of them miraculously made it well past 35, which is the only reason your argument at all works. And the majority of those guys were garbage by the year 2008.

Herm brought in 10 or so guys who had excellent careers, costed nothing, and most of whom are still relevant almost 10 years later. And he barely spent any money (except for Carl's dumbass moves). Pioli was gifted one hell of a roster situation. Meaning given the situation Herm was put in, he left the team in a really good place. Don't blame him for Pioli ****ing it up.

Bullshit.

Thanks to Herm, the Chiefs QB situation was Broken Croyle and Thigpen. Far from "one hell of a roster situation" at the game's most important position.

Also the Glenn Dorsey bust at #5 overall goes on Herm's record as well.

[chiefzilla1501]

Hey man. The three year thing was your deal, not mine. I'm not saying it wasn't a cluster **** when DV left.

What you are missing is that Herms team was just as horrible. Give a guy 3 years that's 21 base picks. Especially if they're high ones like Herm got because he was ****ing horrible you should be able to pull a nucleus of decent talent. But 10 guys don't win. The 2 wins are evidence of that. If this team wasn't a total ****ing tire fire it would have won far more than 2 games. I bet you can go through about any team and find a few guys that you can build around. But it takes something better than awful at every position on the field and Herm wasn't able to get that done in 3 years. Dorsey did it in 1. He wrecked the cap to do it but he put Together some guys that can play.

Herm drafted a few stars. So did Pioli and nobody besides the local Pats trash is clamoring to his defense. Herm was a ****ing disaster. His team had less dudes that went on to play 3 years than DV did by your own count. And DV sold out to win. I'm not blinded by Herm hate anymore than you are blinded because you are enamored with a few stars he stumbled into despite being remarkably incompetent at every single aspect of his job as head coach. That is all despite the fact that crediting Herm with the acquisition of all those guys is beyond a stretch.

Herm inherited an old as shit roster in unbelievable cap hell, and left behind an immaculate cap situation and a core roster of 10 or so players who are still not just starting, but playing excellent even today.

Do you realize that Herm left Pioli with $57M in cap space in 2009? That is insane. And it's not a stretch to give Herm a lot of credit. It's widely known that he went over Peterson's head and demanded that he blow up the roster and push for a youth movement.

With 10-15 not just good, but mostly excellent players, $57M in cap space... there is no excuse for Pioli not to have built a kickass roster in 2009. I have never, ever, ever said Herm was a good coach. But JFC, to blame him for the piece of shit he was given and not acknowledge what a terrific situation the Chiefs were in by 2009.... some people will just hate for the sake of hating.

[chiefzilla1501]

Bullshit.

Thanks to Herm, the Chiefs QB situation was Broken Croyle and Thigpen. Far from "one hell of a roster situation" at the game's most important position.

Also the Glenn Dorsey bust at #5 overall goes on Herm's record as well.

That is unbelievably nitpicky to knock on the Dorsey pick. And he wasn't a bust.

The QB situation wasn't great. But he's the only damn person in Chiefs' history who had the guts to start a young QB even when Peterson was trying to shove Huard down his throat.

[Bowser]

Herm didn't drag this team down. The hate for the guy among Chiefs fans is seriously unreal. Romeo dragged a team down. Herm made the team better under his watch, even if he wasn't a great gameday coach.

What in the actual fuck.

I distinctly remember Herm at his press conference saying he wasn't going to change the offense Vermeil and Saunders had implemented, "because why would I want to change an offense that scores 30 plus every game? HAHAHAHA!!", only to watch him ride Larry Johnson straight into the ground with a 400+ carry season in 2006. He absolutely drug this team down, even if Vermeil left the pantry empty when he left and Peterson was past giving a fuck.

Herman Edwards was an AWFUL coach for the Chiefs. What he SHOULD HAVE done was take over for Peterson had Peterson left with Vermeil like it really should have gone down.

[Buehler445]

Herm inherited an old as shit roster in unbelievable cap hell, and left behind an immaculate cap situation and a core roster of 10 or so players who are still not just starting, but playing excellent even today.

Do you realize that Herm left Pioli with $57M in cap space in 2009? That is insane. And it's not a stretch to give Herm a lot of credit. It's widely known that he went over Peterson's head and demanded that he blow up the roster and push for a youth movement.

With 10-15 not just good, but mostly excellent players, $57M in cap space... there is no excuse for Pioli not to have built a kickass roster in 2009. I have never, ever, ever said Herm was a good coach. But JFC, to blame him for the piece of shit he was given and not acknowledge what a terrific situation the Chiefs were in by 2009.... some people will just hate for the sake of hating.

So you are going to say you acknowledge he is a shitacular coach, which WAS HIS FUCKING JOB and also was the basis of my rant. Then you are going to say that he said fuck winning and went out and got the bust guys he could and ended up with 10. In three fucking years? And you're going to make the argument that it was a job well done? Are you fucking kidding me with this shit?

Sure. I hate Herm. But you have done nothing here but reinforce it. Quite strongly.

JFC dude. Herm was horrible. At everything he ever did in KC. He was horrible at the Jets And now he's horrible at everything he is doing in Bristol.

Fuck Herm. Peterson could have went and got ANYBODY and thy could have done just as well. And probably could have coached a little too. Because you know. That's the fucking Job.

Moreover, if you're going to tell me he made the call on all the personnel moves LOL. Just LOL.

[Buehler445]

What in the actual fuck.

I distinctly remember Herm at his press conference saying he wasn't going to change the offense Vermeil and Saunders had implemented, "because why would I want to change an offense that scores 30 plus every game? HAHAHAHA!!", only to watch him ride Larry Johnson straight into the ground with a 400+ carry season in 2006. He absolutely drug this team down, even if Vermeil left the pantry empty when he left and Peterson was past giving a fuck.

Herman Edwards was an AWFUL coach for the Chiefs. What he SHOULD HAVE done was take over for Peterson had Peterson left with Vermeil like it really should have gone down.

Fuck taking over for Peterson. If zilla is going to give Herm credit for every guy that could play, that's 17 guys in 3 years. That's 5 and a half players a year that deserve a spot. Fuck that shit. KC picked up a few talented players and fielded team of complete shit otherwise. No thank you. Get Herm the fuck away from my team.

[chiefzilla1501]

What in the actual ****.

I distinctly remember Herm at his press conference saying he wasn't going to change the offense Vermeil and Saunders had implemented, "because why would I want to change an offense that scores 30 plus every game? HAHAHAHA!!", only to watch him ride Larry Johnson straight into the ground with a 400+ carry season in 2006. He absolutely drug this team down, even if Vermeil left the pantry empty when he left and Peterson was past giving a ****.

Herman Edwards was an AWFUL coach for the Chiefs. What he SHOULD HAVE done was take over for Peterson had Peterson left with Vermeil like it really should have gone down.

Like I said, Herm was a terrible X's and O's and game day coach.

But that is different from discussing the moves he made personnel-wise. He was 100% right to push for the rebuild. And he did it effectively. For as much shit as people give him, he left the team in a very good place when he left.

[Buehler445]

That is unbelievably nitpicky to knock on the Dorsey pick. And he wasn't a bust.

The QB situation wasn't great. But he's the only damn person in Chiefs' history who had the guts to start a young QB even when Peterson was trying to shove Huard down his throat.

Dorsey was shit here. Then he went to the 9ers and was middling. That's basically Ryan Sims. The whole DL was a fucking dumpster fire save for Herms first year when JA was still here.

For 5 overall that's a bust.

[TimBone]

I've never seen Buehler so passionate about something. I like it.

[Buehler445]

Like I said, Herm was a terrible X's and O's and game day coach.

But that is different from discussing the moves he made personnel-wise. He was 100% right to push for the rebuild. And he did it effectively. For as much shit as people give him, he left the team in a very good place when he left.

17 dudes that deserve a roster spot (your numbers) in three years at a whopping clip 5.6 players per year is not effective. And very likely at least some of those 17 dudes are in the personnel department. Not solely Herm.

He was right to cut some fat. But you don't have to win 2 motherfucking games to do it.

Herm was awful in every single aspect of his job.

[Buehler445]

I've never seen Buehler so passionate about something. I like it.

Fucking Herm man. I had no idea that he had any ball washers left. It is truely incredible.

[Bowser]

Like I said, Herm was a terrible X's and O's and game day coach.

But that is different from discussing the moves he made personnel-wise. He was 100% right to push for the rebuild. And he did it effectively. For as much shit as people give him, he left the team in a very good place when he left.

Haha, no he didn't. He had an eye for talent, but he fucking buried this team in futility. No free agents wanted to come play for him and his shit coaching philosophies, that was as much of a reason why Pissant Pioli had so much cap to use as Herm's "brilliant maneuvering" was.

Are you related to Herm or something? An old neighbor of his?

[FloridaMan88]

That is unbelievably nitpicky to knock on the Dorsey pick. And he wasn't a bust.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

It is "unbelievably nitpicky" to knock the Glenn Dorsey pick, which was a Ryan Sims-level bust with the 5th overall pick in the draft?

And yes Dorsey was a bust.

[chiefzilla1501]

17 dudes that deserve a roster spot (your numbers) in three years at a whopping clip 5.6 players per year is not effective. And very likely at least some of those 17 dudes are in the personnel department. Not solely Herm.

He was right to cut some fat. But you don't have to win 2 mother****ing games to do it.

Herm was awful in every single aspect of his job.

17 dudes. 10 or so of them excellent football players
-They spent almost no money to do that. In doing so they cleared up $57 million dollars in cap space in 2009. $57M. You do realize that's enough money to buy you 5 more superstars, right?
-They relied almost exclusively on draft picks. 2 out of 3 years they were picking in the 20's
-So you're advocating saving a few wins here and there? They could have started Huard, McIntosh, Surtain, Wesley, Woods. Kept Wiegmann and T-Rich around another year. So winning 6 games with that geriatric cast would make you feel better than winning 2 and in the process not seeing what we had in guys like Pollard, Page, Flowers, Albert, and Carr? Those guys started WAY earlier than most coaches would allow because we committed to a youth movement

In 2009, he had 17 dudes. He had the #3 pick. He had $57M to spend. He set this team up nicely to make a big move in 2009. And sorry, but that shit doesn't happen if you keep applying band-aids. I don't know how that's at all acceptable. Again, his inability to coach is irrelevant. That's not something he left behind after he left. What matters is the state of the roster.

[BryanBusby]

I think the Herm era would of looked different if they rebuilt the team right away over trying to scrape out wins with the remants of the DV era for 2 years.

Herm can easily identify talent, but just has no idea what a good offense entails of.

[chiefzilla1501]

Haha, no he didn't. He had an eye for talent, but he ****ing buried this team in futility. No free agents wanted to come play for him and his shit coaching philosophies, that was as much of a reason why Pissant Pioli had so much cap to use as Herm's "brilliant maneuvering" was.

Are you related to Herm or something? An old neighbor of his?

What? Where are you getting this "no free agents wanted to play" bullshit? That is completely made up. I haven't seen anything like that anywhere. We had expensive geriatric free agents on the roster. Herm cut a bunch of them. And he committed to starting Albert over McIntosh. Carr / Flowers over Surtain. Pollard / Page over Wesley / Woods. It wasn't "brilliant." But it was a ballsy move to commit to a youth movement. And it was absolutely the right call.

I have long been Herm's biggest defender even though I never wanted him to stay as the coach. Because there has never been a man more hated on CP than him. And the over-the-topness of all the hate is completely irrational.

[Bowser]

It is NOT irrational, you just defend him because of silly reasons that make sense to you. He sent this team into a nosedive that they are JUST NOW recovering from (2010 doesn't count as it was a complete mirage).

[FloridaMan88]

In addition to the Dorsey bust, don't forget the other pieces of Herm's defensive line of the future… Turk McBride and Tank Tyler.

Turk was out of the NFL in 2012 and Tank was out of the NFL in 2009.

Herm's defensive line of the future.

[Bowser]

Now, I will hand it to him for sticking with the young guys, but that wasn't a hard decision as the vets at the time sucked.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think the Herm era would of looked different if they rebuilt the team right away over trying to scrape out wins with the remants of the DV era for 2 years.

Herm can easily identify talent, but just has no idea what a good offense entails of.

I agree, though Herm was definitely pushing for the rebuild by year 2. He insisted on Croyle starting while Peterson pushed Huard down his throat.

I also believe the era would have looked much different if Herm was given one more year. I'm glad he didn't, because I knew he wasn't a coach that could take us deep into the playoffs. But with the roster he had in 2009 + #3 pick in the draft + $57M in cap space + a much better offensive system under Gailey, the team had a good chance of at least being respectable in 2009.

[chiefzilla1501]

Now, I will hand it to him for sticking with the young guys, but that wasn't a hard decision as the vets at the time sucked.

From everything we've heard in the media, Herm went over Peterson's head to do it. And he somehow managed to make Peterson completely irrelevant in 2008. It was a really bold move and he still takes a reputational hit for doing it. But it was absolutely the right move even if it led to a few immediate losses.

[chiefzilla1501]

It is NOT irrational, you just defend him because of silly reasons that make sense to you. He sent this team into a nosedive that they are JUST NOW recovering from (2010 doesn't count as it was a complete mirage).

No. I defend him from ridiculous statements like this. This team wasn't in a nosedive. We went from cap hell to $57M cap space (before cutting Gonzalez). We went from the oldest roster in football to the youngest, including 10 core players who could play for 10 years.

If you take the roster Herm left behind. Have a reasonably effective 2009 draft. Effectively use the $57M in cap space. Keep Gonzalez. Bring in a decent QB. And hire a decent head coach / OC / DC. That team could have been excellent by 2009.

The team spiraled backwards because Pioli squandered the $57M. And then completely mismanaged the team after that. Including forcing a 3-4, which set us back a few years.

[Buehler445]

17 dudes. 10 or so of them excellent football players
-They spent almost no money to do that. In doing so they cleared up $57 million dollars in cap space in 2009. $57M. You do realize that's enough money to buy you 5 more superstars, right?
-They relied almost exclusively on draft picks. 2 out of 3 years they were picking in the 20's
-So you're advocating saving a few wins here and there? They could have started Huard, McIntosh, Surtain, Wesley, Woods. Kept Wiegmann and T-Rich around another year. So winning 6 games with that geriatric cast would make you feel better than winning 2 and in the process not seeing what we had in guys like Pollard, Page, Flowers, Albert, and Carr? Those guys started WAY earlier than most coaches would allow because we committed to a youth movement

In 2009, he had 17 dudes. He had the #3 pick. He had $57M to spend. He set this team up nicely to make a big move in 2009. And sorry, but that shit doesn't happen if you keep applying band-aids. I don't know how that's at all acceptable. Again, his inability to coach is irrelevant. That's not something he left behind after he left. What matters is the state of the roster.

Still can't quit Herm huh?

I can go point by point with you.

1.) Lets start with your 10 excellent dudes. They are:
Charles
Bowe
Gonzo - Squirm had nothing to do with this.
Albert
Waters - Squirm had nothing to do with this.
Hali
Carr
Flowers
DJ - Squirm had nothing to do with this
Colquit - Squirm had nothing to do with this.

So Squrmin Herman motherfucking sack of cunt Edwards found 6 guys are long term guys and 17 that deserve a roster spot. In three years. In the draft and FA. That is truly horrific. I'm not going to do the math, but if he turned over 49 positions in 3 years and hit on MOTHERFUCKING 13 (your 17 less DV's 4) and leaving 17 total of players, that is 34% of the positions filled with someone that is not a shitstain. That is a fucking joke of "roster building." That is why the team was fucking horrible and won 2 games. If you're going to give all personnel credit to Herm, you gotta admit that in 3 whole years of control he managed to find 1/3 of a team. In 10 years we could have been competitive. Except the first 1/3 would have been old as fuck by then YAY HERM! Jesus fucking Christ.

2.) If he had all that money to spend, why the fuck didn't he try to go get somebody in 08 when after 4-12, you have to know there is some heat headed your way. Go get one guy that can help you win. Hell, sell out on getting a decent QB. Get good QB play save your job. Why didn't he? Because he couldn't get one. Why? Horrible.

3.) Fucking horseshit. He had 21 picks and turned over 49 spots. He brought in a shitton of FA. Granted, he didn't spend any money doing it, but he brought a fuckton of them in. Listen, because this is important....

THIS IS WHERE GOOD TEAMS ARE MADE. Good teams have 2 things - 1. QB. 2. Production from cheap players. Look at all the teams that are consistently good. They get production from cheap players. That's how Seattle won. That's how Pitt won. That's how NE won. It doesn't matter where they come from, but there is a cap. You have to get more productivity per dollar than they other guy. Herm did nothing of this. And this is where teams are truly built. In the cheap contracts. Herm Blew that shit hard.

3. I'm not advocating shit. I didn't propose any plan here. What I do know is that you don't have to go fucking 2-14 to turn shit around. The only team that has done it is Indy. Teams that win 2 games aren't good. They win 2 games because there is no talent. Not because they've been built by some fucking master. Seattle, San Fran, Arizona, New Orleans have all been turned around without taking a mediocre team and making it horrible. Teams that win 2 games 3 years into a rebuild do so because there is not enough talent to field a team. Which is a fucking joke. We weren't rebuilding, we were fucking horrible and it was under Herm's watch.

Nevermind the biggest fucking hole in your whole argument. You readily admit that he was a horrid coach. That was his fucking job, man.

The general responsibilities of a HC are pretty much:
1. Hire good staff - HORRIBLE
2. Team demeanor - HORRIBLE - His teams quit 2 straight years.
3. Team discipline/execution - HORRIBLE - Stupid penalties, can't run basic plays
4. Work with staff/gametime calls - HORRIBLE Games were a fucking joke.
5. Work with personnel department - HORRIBLE but somehow you're saying that 6 dudes that are good mean that he didn't wreck the fucking program. What a fucking joke.

[Buehler445]

I agree, though Herm was definitely pushing for the rebuild by year 2. He insisted on Croyle starting while Peterson pushed Huard down his throat.

I also believe the era would have looked much different if Herm was given one more year. I'm glad he didn't, because I knew he wasn't a coach that could take us deep into the playoffs. But with the roster he had in 2009 + #3 pick in the draft + $57M in cap space + a much better offensive system under Gailey, the team had a good chance of at least being respectable in 2009.

Better system? He had Thigpen running gimmicks and a zone read.

[Buehler445]

No. I defend him from ridiculous statements like this. This team wasn't in a nosedive. We went from cap hell to $57M cap space (before cutting Gonzalez). We went from the oldest roster in football to the youngest, including 10 core players who could play for 10 years.

If you take the roster Herm left behind. Have a reasonably effective 2009 draft. Effectively use the $57M in cap space. Keep Gonzalez. Bring in a decent QB. And hire a decent head coach / OC / DC. That team could have been excellent by 2009.

The team spiraled backwards because Pioli squandered the $57M. And then completely mismanaged the team after that. Including forcing a 3-4, which set us back a few years.

Pioli did indeed fistfuck the franchise. But it's not like he was given the keys to a ferrari. There were 17 motherfuckers that deserved a roster spot. That's not starters, that's roster spots. And Herm had 3 years to come up with good players and he brought to the table 13 that weren't a fucking joke. That is horrible, man. Really horrible.

[Buehler445]

Oh, and it should be noted that 14 losses was a franchise record. BUT DON'T HATE HERM. He found 6 guys that are above average. Nobody on the face of the planet could have ever achieved such a feat.

[FloridaMan88]

But with the roster he had in 2009 + #3 pick in the draft + $57M in cap space + a much better offensive system under Gailey, the team had a good chance of at least being respectable in 2009.

Yep another season of a Croyle/Thigpen QB situation= fail.

Another season of Herm's defensive line of the future = Dorsey, Tank, and Turk= fail.

Your cult-like admiration of Herm is clouding your judgement obviously.

[Buehler445]

Yep another season of a Croyle/Thigpen QB situation= fail.

Another season of Herm's defensive line of the future = Dorsey, Tank, and Turk= fail.

Your cult-like admiration of Herm is clouding your judgement obviously.

By 2009 he would have had 22.6 players that were worth a roster spot. That's almost an offense and a defense. We still would have lost in grand fashion, because 3 of those starters are K,P,LS and Herm was still coaching.

[FloridaMan88]

Oh, and it should be noted that 14 losses was a franchise record. BUT DON'T HATE HERM. He found 6 guys that are above average. Nobody on the face of the planet could have ever achieved such a feat.

Even Fat Scott managed to accomplish that.

[chiefzilla1501]

Still can't quit Herm huh?

I can go point by point with you.

1.) Lets start with your 10 excellent dudes. They are:


6 Excellent players
Charles, Albert, Bowe, Hali, Flowers, Carr

8 Starter calibre
Babin / Gilberry, Page, Pollard, Dorsey, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards / Boone, Barth (not sure where you're getting that he's been horrible)

Adequate:
Turk, Tank, Battle, Barry Richardson, Studebaker, McGraw

Ended up being good:
De la Puenta

Inherited
Waters, Gonzalez, DJ, Colquitt


2.) If he had all that money to spend, why the **** didn't he try to go get somebody in 08 when after 4-12, you have to know there is some heat headed your way. Go get one guy that can help you win. Hell, sell out on getting a decent QB. Get good QB play save your job. Why didn't he? Because he couldn't get one. Why? Horrible.
Well, I'm glad we had a coach who was looking out for the long-term instead of trying to save his job. I honestly don't know why trying to band-aid this team yet again was even an option.

3.) ****ing horseshit. He had 21 picks and turned over 49 spots. He brought in a shitton of FA. Granted, he didn't spend any money doing it, but he brought a ****ton of them in. Listen, because this is important....

THIS IS WHERE GOOD TEAMS ARE MADE. Good teams have 2 things - 1. QB. 2. Production from cheap players. Look at all the teams that are consistently good. They get production from cheap players. That's how Seattle won. That's how Pitt won. That's how NE won. It doesn't matter where they come from, but there is a cap. You have to get more productivity per dollar than they other guy. Herm did nothing of this. And this is where teams are truly built. In the cheap contracts. Herm Blew that shit hard.
Fair point here. Though I disagree on how easy that actually is. Of course he's not NE or Pitt or even Dorsey. Most teams aren't that successful in the scrap haul. He failed the QB decision but at least he chose going young over the mediocre veteran

3. I'm not advocating shit. I didn't propose any plan here. What I do know is that you don't have to go ****ing 2-14 to turn shit around. The only team that has done it is Indy. Teams that win 2 games aren't good. They win 2 games because there is no talent. Not because they've been built by some ****ing master. Seattle, San Fran, Arizona, New Orleans have all been turned around without taking a mediocre team and making it horrible. Teams that win 2 games 3 years into a rebuild do so because there is not enough talent to field a team. Which is a ****ing joke. We weren't rebuilding, we were ****ing horrible and it was under Herm's watch.
When you look at the actual roster, the talent wasn't terrible. We had 4 rookies starting in the secondary. We had a rookie LG starting at LT. And we had shit at QB. That'll do it to you.


Nevermind the biggest ****ing hole in your whole argument. You readily admit that he was a horrid coach. That was his ****ing job, man.
It's not a hole in my argument. The question was if Herm wrecked the team. When Herm left, his bad coaching left too. So all we're left with is his personnel decisions.

The general responsibilities of a HC are pretty much:
1. Hire good staff - HORRIBLE
2. Team demeanor - HORRIBLE - His teams quit 2 straight years.
3. Team discipline/execution - HORRIBLE - Stupid penalties, can't run basic plays
4. Work with staff/gametime calls - HORRIBLE Games were a ****ing joke.
5. Work with personnel department - HORRIBLE but somehow you're saying that 6 dudes that are good mean that he didn't wreck the ****ing program. What a ****ing joke.
Well, first, he wasn't a good HC. But he has been to 4 playoff games and won 2. So he's not nearly as bad as people say he is. I didn't like him because I thought he was a career 8-8 coach. But I'm mainly going to speak to point #5, because that's all I care about. He was not "horrible" at personnel. He wasn't elite but again, the roster was in much better shape after he left. As long as we shake the idea that winning meaningless games in 2008 should have even been in our vocabulary.

[New World Order]

Herm inherited Vermeil's awful drafts.

He didn't have much of a chance here.

[cdcox]

He killed this franchise?

Get the **** out of here with that shit.

Unbelievable, the shit people believe around here

9-7
4-12
2-14

Looks pretty dead to me.

[chiefzilla1501]

Let's assume Dorsey / Reid took over in 2009. Here's what it could have looked like

QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)
RB - Charles / Battle / Cox
OL - Albert / Waters / Wade Smith / De la Puenta / Barry Richardson
WR - Bowe / nobody
TE - Gonzalez

DL - Hali / Dorsey / Edwards / Turk
LB - DJ / Pat Thomas / Demorrio Williams
CB - Carr / Flowers
S - Page / Pollard

We had $57M to spend. Lots of draft picks. Assume we installed a better offense, defense. How far off were we? We direly needed a QB, pass rusher, 1 or 2 LBs, and some receivers. The rest of the roster wasn't nearly as bad as the 2-14 record indicates.

[cdcox]

My friends who are fans of other teams laughed when we hired him and I knew they were right. I had no come back at all.

[chiefzilla1501]

9-7
4-12
2-14

Looks pretty dead to me.

That roster Peterson/Vermeil left behind was a sinking ship no matter who was coaching the team. The 2-14 season was accelerated because we chose to clean up the cap and start a ton of rookies.

[chiefzilla1501]

My friends who are fans of other teams laughed when we hired him and I knew they were right. I had no come back at all.

There are a LOT of coaches who were a lot worse than Herm in NFL history. He gets laughed at because his mistakes were comically bad and memorable. But overall, he was a mediocre coach with a mediocre ceiling.

[cdcox]

There are a LOT of coaches who were a lot worse than Herm in NFL history. He gets laughed at because his mistakes were comically bad and memorable. But overall, he was a mediocre coach with a mediocre ceiling.

I want nothing to do with mediocre. If you want to defend mediocre, that's on you.

[TimBone]

Haley could take 22 guys off the street and win 2 games.

[TimBone]

Also, you guys are giving Herm credit for Charles. Not true. Just go to the Falcon's board, they'll tell you that was a Pioli pick.

[Baby Lee]

But most importantly, fuck that motherfucker for taking a proud, professional franchise and turning it into a joke.

ROFL ROFL - like saying the dude who was 8th to blow his load in your daughter's face in 'Bukkake Blitz 37' was the one who stole her 'honor'

[ThaVirus]

This was a good debate.

Good job, guys.

[HemiEd]

Ha, the same guy that had to be told by his wife that his Chiefs team had backed into the playoffs. Then he laid down for his friend Tony Dungy. I have zero respect for him, zero.

[Chiefnj2]

Herm was a pretty bad coach all around, but he did two good things:

1. He took a proverbial bullet for the organization in his last year when he knew his job was on the line and he decided to give all the young guys playing time. He traded wins for experience.

2. He's the only KC head coach to attempt to draft, develop and play his own QB.

[wazu]

ROFL ROFL - like saying the dude who was 8th to blow his load in your daughter's face in 'Bukkake Blitz 37' was the one who stole her 'honor'

ROFL

[chiefzilla1501]

I want nothing to do with mediocre. If you want to defend mediocre, that's on you.

I don't. I said from the beginning Herm should have never have been hired. Just as I said I wasn't a fan of the Reid hire. I'm not defending mediocre. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is that Herm is the most hated man on chiefsplanet. I frankly don't understand why vermeil gets a free pass considering he only made the playoffs once in 4 years and left the team a mess when he left.

[BigCatDaddy]

Herm sucked as a coach but excels at being a good human being.

[Buehler445]

6 Excellent players
Charles, Albert, Bowe, Hali, Flowers, Carr

It's a bit of a stretch to say Flowers and Carr were excellent. I'd say they were good starters but not excellent. Flowers and Carr didn't do a whole lot (except get paid) after we dumped the Tampon 2, which is very corner friendly. But I'll let that go.


8 Starter calibre
Babin / Gilberry, Page, Pollard, Dorsey, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards / Boone, Barth (not sure where you're getting that he's been horrible)

Babin and Gilberry never started to my knowledge. They're both pass rush specialists.

Page did fuckall after he left here. He's no starter.

Dorsey never started. And don't give me the, "HE'S A 4-3 PLAYMAKER" He went to SF as a rotational guy in their 3-4. Not a starter.

Alfonso Boone was never a starter to my knowledge.

Barth was horrible HERE. Nobody cried when we replaced him with Succup. He mindbogglingly went on to be decent.

Besides that your arguement is a joke. Just because they started for a 2-14 team doesn't mean they're starter quality. If there were that many "starters" this team doesn't go 2-14.


Adequate:
Turk, Tank, Battle, Barry Richardson, Studebaker, McGraw

Ended up being good:
De la Puenta

Inherited
Waters, Gonzalez, DJ, Colquitt

Tank and Turk were horrible. Tank didn't even last 2 years after he left here despite having elite size that you can't coach.


Well, I'm glad we had a coach who was looking out for the long-term instead of trying to save his job. I honestly don't know why trying to band-aid this team yet again was even an option.

Dude, if he was half a "team builder" he could have done a hell of a lot better than he did. His big FA guy? Ron Edwards. Where are the guys that fill out a roster and produce. Where are guys like Abdula, Ron Parker, Marcus Cooper (granted Manning like killed his career), Spencer Ware and Charcandrick West, Mike DeVito, Jaye Howard, Zombo, Jah Reid? Those guys aren't making money but also aren't a complete liability. There are no team killing deals with those guys. Not using expensive FA band-aids does not equate to 2 motherfucking wins.



Fair point here. Though I disagree on how easy that actually is. Of course he's not NE or Pitt or even Dorsey. Most teams aren't that successful in the scrap haul. He failed the QB decision but at least he chose going young over the mediocre veteran

I never said it was easy. I'm saying Herm failed miserably at the most important aspect of team building after finding a signal caller.


When you look at the actual roster, the talent wasn't terrible. We had 4 rookies starting in the secondary. We had a rookie LG starting at LT. And we had shit at QB. That'll do it to you.

No. No it does not. If there was talent, some plays would have been made. IIRC Reids first year we had a really young roster. We were playing 7 dudes that came off the waiver wire. If there was that much talent, they would have won some games. Maybe not 10, but they would have won more than 2. Young, dumb, uncoached (basically) talent can lose ballgames, but it can also win them. We didn't so much do that.


It's not a hole in my argument. The question was if Herm wrecked the team. When Herm left, his bad coaching left too. So all we're left with is his personnel decisions.

Which were shit. If he turned over 49 positions in 3 years and came up with 13 players (your 17 less the 4 holdovers) that is Bay of Pigs bad.

Well, first, he wasn't a good HC. But he has been to 4 playoff games and won 2. So he's not nearly as bad as people say he is. I didn't like him because I thought he was a career 8-8 coach. But I'm mainly going to speak to point #5, because that's all I care about. He was not "horrible" at personnel. He wasn't elite but again, the roster was in much better shape after he left. As long as we shake the idea that winning meaningless games in 2008 should have even been in our vocabulary.

Yeah, those playoff games he went to were with Dick Vermeils players and Bill Parcells players. Once it was left to him to build a team, he didn't sniff the playoffs.

He was horrible at personnel. He managed to pick up 6 dudes above average. In three years. After completely selling out to go find talent. That is a goddamned joke.

That roster Peterson/Vermeil left behind was a sinking ship no matter who was coaching the team. The 2-14 season was accelerated because we chose to clean up the cap and start a ton of rookies.

And yet, even after completely selling out to win in 05, there were more guys on that 05 team that played 3 years than after Herm dumped everybody and sold out to go find guys that could play.

DVs roster wasn't as bad as you remember and Herm's wasn't as good as you remember.

There are a LOT of coaches who were a lot worse than Herm in NFL history. He gets laughed at because his mistakes were comically bad and memorable. But overall, he was a mediocre coach with a mediocre ceiling.

No. He was mediocre when using Bill Parcells guys and Dick Vermeil's guys. He was a goddamned joke when left to his own devices.

Herm was a pretty bad coach all around, but he did two good things:

1. He took a proverbial bullet for the organization in his last year when he knew his job was on the line and he decided to give all the young guys playing time. He traded wins for experience.

2. He's the only KC head coach to attempt to draft, develop and play his own QB.

I'll say it again, playing young guys does not equate to going 2-14. Reid's team in 13 was one of the youngest in the league IIRC. Going 2-14 was failing to fill a whole pile of positions with dudes that have a pulse.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm was a pretty bad coach all around, but he did two good things:

1. He took a proverbial bullet for the organization in his last year when he knew his job was on the line and he decided to give all the young guys playing time. He traded wins for experience.

2. He's the only KC head coach to attempt to draft, develop and play his own QB.

This. Point number 1 can't be stressed enough.

[Buehler445]

ROFL ROFL - like saying the dude who was 8th to blow his load in your daughter's face in 'Bukkake Blitz 37' was the one who stole her 'honor'

Your point is well taken. But under Herm's tutelage was the first time in my lifetime that the Chiefs were wholly not competitive and entered games with absolutely no chance to win. And lets not forget that the division was a joke then save for some Marty chokejobs in SD. pulling up 2 wins with your guys in 2008 was not the same as it would have been in 1999 when the whole thing was a knock out drag out.

There was a remarkable lack of success prior to Herm, but they weren't a joke until Herm. So essentially the Bukkake Blitz was initiated by Herm.

[Buehler445]

This. Point number 1 can't be stressed enough.

Playing young dudes does not equate to 2-14. If he had built a decent team, which you are telling me is his ONLY redeeming quality, he'd have pulled probably 6-8 wins, especially with how horrible the division was at that time. Beat the Fade twice and take one from Donk at home, that's 3 wins. BUT NO. We have to give JaFatass Bustell a huge percentage of his wins and his only 4th quarter comeback by torching the DBs, which are the primary basis for your argument.

[ThaVirus]

I always like Jarrad Page. I have no idea why.

He was at least good for two games a year against Oakland.

[Buehler445]

I always like Jarrad Page. I have no idea why.

He was at least good for two games a year against Oakland.

Aaron Brooks probably sends him hate mail every Christmas.

[Simply Red]

He'll snap eventually and kill someone.

[Buehler445]

He'll snap eventually and kill someone.

Herm? Or Aaron Brooks? :D

[chiefzilla1501]

Playing young dudes does not equate to 2-14. If he had built a decent team, which you are telling me is his ONLY redeeming quality, he'd have pulled probably 6-8 wins, especially with how horrible the division was at that time. Beat the Fade twice and take one from Donk at home, that's 3 wins. BUT NO. We have to give JaFatass Bustell a huge percentage of his wins and his only 4th quarter comeback by torching the DBs, which are the primary basis for your argument.

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Herm is "an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

The line fits Herm so well, it's almost like Shakespeare had him in mind when he wrote it.

[Buehler445]

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

Your problem is that you think running a team with fuckall for talent out and winning is a step in the right direction. It's not. If Herm was had built a decent team they'd have won 6 or so. He didn't so they won 2. And this team was not a retreat QB away from 4 more wins. They were most of a team away, save 10 or so guys that were legit NFL talent. That's on Herm.

Moreover, the #3 you are touting as a great draft position. Teams with a lot of talent don't draft high. Do you know who does? Oakland. Detroit. St Louis. And they still suck. One high draft pick and then the top of each round doesn't "fix" things. I'd much rather have a team that has some NFL depth than a top 3 pick.

Your argument for finding an elite guy at the top of the draft is a joke too. Check out the 3-10 picks from that year.

3. Tyson Jackson - horrible
4. Aaron Curry - Somehow MORE horrible than Jackson. I don't know how.
5. Sanchize - Backup on a shit team. Yay.
6. Andre Smith - middling OT. You can find those far lower than top 10.
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey. Crap WR.
8. Eugene Monroe - Middling OT. Same shit 2 picks later.
9. Raji - has been anywhere from good to horrible.
10. Crabtree - middling WR

I'm glad we were a fucking joke to get a shot at those motherfuckers. Fuck that shit. Losing sucks. And getting top 5 pick is bad for everyone but fucking Indy (fuck Indy).

[FloridaMan88]

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

If your best argument for Herm is that he left the team in good shape in 2009, then using your logic does Fat Scott deserve the same credit for how he left the Chiefs in 2013? Six Pro Bowl players, flexibility in cap space, etc.?

The Chiefs went 11-5 and to the playoffs with the roster Fat Scott left... the Chiefs went 4-12 with the roster Herm left.

[chiefzilla1501]

Your problem is that you think running a team with ****all for talent out and winning is a step in the right direction. It's not. If Herm was had built a decent team they'd have won 6 or so. He didn't so they won 2. And this team was not a retreat QB away from 4 more wins. They were most of a team away, save 10 or so guys that were legit NFL talent. That's on Herm.

Moreover, the #3 you are touting as a great draft position. Teams with a lot of talent don't draft high. Do you know who does? Oakland. Detroit. St Louis. And they still suck. One high draft pick and then the top of each round doesn't "fix" things. I'd much rather have a team that has some NFL depth than a top 3 pick.

Your argument for finding an elite guy at the top of the draft is a joke too. Check out the 3-10 picks from that year.

3. Tyson Jackson - horrible
4. Aaron Curry - Somehow MORE horrible than Jackson. I don't know how.
5. Sanchize - Backup on a shit team. Yay.
6. Andre Smith - middling OT. You can find those far lower than top 10.
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey. Crap WR.
8. Eugene Monroe - Middling OT. Same shit 2 picks later.
9. Raji - has been anywhere from good to horrible.
10. Crabtree - middling WR

I'm glad we were a ****ing joke to get a shot at those mother****ers. **** that shit. Losing sucks. And getting top 5 pick is bad for everyone but ****ing Indy (**** Indy).

There is no benefit other than "feel good" to win 6 games over 2. Getting better draft position was one thing. We had $57M to spend because we chose not to band-aid. That would have put in position to draft Sanchez -- even if he's middling, it was a huge upgrade over Thigpen and also Cassel. It would have put us in position to make a run at several of top notch free agents like Peppers, Haynesworth, Vilma, Dansby, Asomugah. And we would have had multiple rounds to pull in maybe 1 or 2 more contributors.

Losing only sucks if you're not in a position to tank. For a team trying to rebuild and clean up their cap, it's a great thing.

[chiefzilla1501]

If your best argument for Herm is that he left the team in good shape in 2009, then using your logic does Fat Scott deserve the same credit for how he left the Chiefs in 2013? Six Pro Bowl players, flexibility in cap space, etc.?

The Chiefs went 11-5 and to the playoffs with the roster Fat Scott left... the Chiefs went 4-12 with the roster Herm left.

How are the situations even close to the same?

Herm inherited the oldest roster in football and a nightmarish cap hell situation.
Pioli inherited the youngest roster in football and a completely clean cap. Pioli had a completely blank slate and the flexibility to do whatever he wanted.

[ThaVirus]

Herm? Or Aaron Brooks? :D


Chiefzilla

[Buehler445]

How are the situations even close to the same?

Herm inherited the oldest roster in football and a nightmarish cap hell situation.
Pioli inherited the youngest roster in football and a completely clean cap. Pioli had a completely blank slate and the flexibility to do whatever he wanted.

He's not comparing what herm took over and what Pioli took over. He's comparing what Herm left and Pioli left.

[Buehler445]

There is no benefit other than "feel good" to win 6 games over 2. Getting better draft position was one thing. We had $57M to spend because we chose not to band-aid. That would have put in position to draft Sanchez -- even if he's middling, it was a huge upgrade over Thigpen and also Cassel. It would have put us in position to make a run at several of top notch free agents like Peppers, Haynesworth, Vilma, Dansby, Asomugah. And we would have had multiple rounds to pull in maybe 1 or 2 more contributors.

Losing only sucks if you're not in a position to tank. For a team trying to rebuild and clean up their cap, it's a great thing.

I'm not talking about finding band-aids for 6 feel gooders. I'm talking about building a damn team with some depth that can win 6 games. Just because a dude is a free agent doesn't mean he's washed up. Look at Abdulah, West, et al that I listed above. You can go find good value free agents. Herm didn't. The team he built was horrible. But you want to forget 3 years of complete fuckall because he went out and got 6 motherfucking guys.

No. Given 3 years almost any personnel man, including the Pioli Reich, was also fucking horrible, can go get a few guys that can play. It takes far more than hitting on a Jamaal Charles or Justin Houston to do a team some good.

Herm was horrible.

[Chiefnj2]

I'll say it again, playing young guys does not equate to going 2-14. Reid's team in 13 was one of the youngest in the league IIRC. Going 2-14 was failing to fill a whole pile of positions with dudes that have a pulse.

Starting 4 or 5 rookies, including starting two rookie CB's and LT that played guard in college was probably the difference between 2 wins and 5 wins. 99.9% of head coaches in that situation who are fighting for their jobs would have brought in a bunch of veterans in hopes of getting to 7 or 8 wins and thus showing "improvement". Most coaches would refuse to go with the "youth model" in their critical third year when year 2 was a mess.

[Simply Red]

This guy is dangerous.

[Buehler445]

Starting 4 or 5 rookies, including starting two rookie CB's and LT that played guard in college was probably the difference between 2 wins and 5 wins. 99.9% of head coaches in that situation who are fighting for their jobs would have brought in a bunch of veterans in hopes of getting to 7 or 8 wins and thus showing "improvement". Most coaches would refuse to go with the "youth model" in their critical third year when year 2 was a mess.

The only thing I disagree with is the LT and backend business. First, Albert played really well. I don't think you can point to him and say McIntosh would have won us more games. Maybe the backend you could, but the two corners were OK. DL (who had some vets), Nickel CB and every LB missed a bunch of damn tackles and couldn't fill a gap or cover a TE. Even DJ, who made a bunch of plays but was inconsistent, accounted for more losses than Carr, Flower, Pollard, and Page. The whole defense was a tire fire after JA left and Hali moved to the RDE spot. Was 2008 the 4 sack year?

But I too am glad he stuck to his guns and showed the world just how good the team HE built was. So all in all I guess I agree.

[chiefzilla1501]

He's not comparing what herm took over and what Pioli took over. He's comparing what Herm left and Pioli left.

Comparing what Herm and left and Pioli left is complete nonsense.

It's like trying to compare the guy who took over Enron post-crash to the guy who took over Apple post-Steve Jobs. Of course the guy who inherited a significantly better situation is going to leave behind a better team than the guy who inherited a complete mess.

[Buehler445]

Comparing what Herm and left and Pioli left is complete nonsense.

It's like trying to compare the guy who took over Enron post-crash to the guy who took over Apple post-Steve Jobs. Of course the guy who inherited a significantly better situation is going to leave behind a better team than the guy who inherited a complete mess.

Both teams were had fuckall for talent save a few dudes and some money to spend.

They were both horrible teams led by horrible personnel guys. Pioli just happened to piss in EVERYBODY'S Post Toasties while Herm was thought of as a good guy.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm not talking about finding band-aids for 6 feel gooders. I'm talking about building a damn team with some depth that can win 6 games. Just because a dude is a free agent doesn't mean he's washed up. Look at Abdulah, West, et al that I listed above. You can go find good value free agents. Herm didn't. The team he built was horrible. But you want to forget 3 years of complete ****all because he went out and got 6 mother****ing guys.

No. Given 3 years almost any personnel man, including the Pioli Reich, was also ****ing horrible, can go get a few guys that can play. It takes far more than hitting on a Jamaal Charles or Justin Houston to do a team some good.

Herm was horrible.

And again, I think you're overrating how easy it is to find players off the scrap heap. No, Herm hasn't done nearly as well as Dorsey in this department, but Dorsey is also doing it better than most GMs in the league. But you have to acknowledge that Dorsey's success is also largely dependent on taking a ton of swings and misses. For every success, there are a lot of expensive failures too like Vance Walker, Mays, Fasano, etc.... The big QB move Dorsey made makes sense for a team in 2013 that was desperate to start winning. Makes no sense for a team like the 2008 Chiefs who needed every last draft pick they could get to build the foundation.

First, please stop using the word "6." I've pointed out several times he brought in about 10 starting calibre players, with 5 or 6 of them being very good. And even using 10 uses the impossible standard that any GM is going to find you 50 starters on the roster. Guys like Babin, Gilberry, Ron Edwards, Wade Smith, Turk, Battle, Barry Richardson, Studebaker, McGraw are more than adequate roster guys. Throw in the 4 or 5 guys from the Vermeil regime... in 3 years spending barely any money on long-term guys and having shitty draft position 2 of those 3 years, we built out half a starting roster and filling half of a 53-man roster with legit roster players. That's not great, but it's certainly not "horrible" given the circumstances.

Sometimes the decision not to spend is just as powerful as the decision to spend. I complimented Dorsey for showing restraint in 2014 and got hammered by it. People gave me shit for praising Dorsey for not spending a shitload on Jairus Byrd, Desean Jackson, and for stockpiling comp picks. Similarly, Herm deserves a lot of credit for showing the same restraint including passing multiple times on a chance to bring in Chad Pennington.

[BigCatDaddy]

I'm a little disturbed at the passion and time invested over Herm's legacy.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'm a little disturbed at the passion and time invested over Herm's legacy.

But yet nobody bats an eye when people over-the-top rip on his legacy all the time. Completely at random. In ways we never did with actual ****-ups like Romeo.

[BigCatDaddy]

But yet nobody bats an eye when people over-the-top rip on his legacy all the time. Completely at random. In ways we never did with actual ****-ups like Romeo.

The common view of Herm was good scout/poor gameday coach. I wouldnt take any view point other than that too serious.

[FloridaMan88]

The common view of Herm was good scout/poor gameday coach. I wouldnt take any view point other than that too serious.

Herm was an overrated scout of talent.

Brodie Croyle, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Glenn Dorsey.

That is Herm's selected QBOTF and defensive line of the future that he absolutely bombed.

[chiefzilla1501]

The common view of Herm was good scout/poor gameday coach. I wouldnt take any view point other than that too serious.

Thanks. That is where I'm at.

[Buehler445]

And again, I think you're overrating how easy it is to find players off the scrap heap. No, Herm hasn't done nearly as well as Dorsey in this department, but Dorsey is also doing it better than most GMs in the league. But you have to acknowledge that Dorsey's success is also largely dependent on taking a ton of swings and misses. For every success, there are a lot of expensive failures too like Vance Walker, Mays, Fasano, etc.... The big QB move Dorsey made makes sense for a team in 2013 that was desperate to start winning. Makes no sense for a team like the 2008 Chiefs who needed every last draft pick they could get to build the foundation.

No, it's not easy. But you HAVE to get production out low income guys to have a decent team in a salary cap sport. Herm did not do that. Herm fucking sucked shit. His team that he built sucked shit. He did not do us any favors. He was horrible. You refuse to admit it.

The QB thing, I don't know why you're hung up on it. Herm had to do something. He blew a third rounder on a guy that was horrible. Won 0 NFL games ever. Dorsey spent 2 seconds on a guy that is servicable. Either one is very good, but to act like Herm did the better thing is just absurd.

First, please stop using the word "6." I've pointed out several times he brought in about 10 starting calibre players, with 5 or 6 of them being very good. And even using 10 uses the impossible standard that any GM is going to find you 50 starters on the roster. Guys like Babin, Gilberry, Ron Edwards, Wade Smith, Turk, Battle, Barry Richardson, Studebaker, McGraw are more than adequate roster guys. Throw in the 4 or 5 guys from the Vermeil regime... in 3 years spending barely any money on long-term guys and having shitty draft position 2 of those 3 years, we built out half a starting roster and filling half of a 53-man roster with legit roster players. That's not great, but it's certainly not "horrible" given the circumstances.

This must be where you and I disagree. The roster that he filled out was shit. He had dudes that flat out couldn't play at a lot of positions. We are looking at a competent personnel guy fill out the Chiefs in 3 years after an abysmal season. Look at the depth on the Chiefs team vs what it was in 08. It's not even funny. Herm hit on some guys. Whoo hoo. Any personnel guy can hit on some guys. Herm just filled the roster with complete hogshit outside of your 10 guys or whatever number you want to pick and say, "LOOK AT WHUT THE HERMZ DID, GUIZ". The team was shit.

Herm found a few guys, sure. But pointing to those guys as the basis for telling me I'm absurd for saying he wrecked the franchise is complete and utter shit. As as been pointed out, any football guy can come up with a few dudes, even the master of team trashing Pioli. Finding 6 guys that are good and a few more that belong on a roster does not excuse the complete and utter fuck-up he dragged this franchise through. Are ways good teams turn the roster over and the good teams don't go 2-14.

Sometimes the decision not to spend is just as powerful as the decision to spend. I complimented Dorsey for showing restraint in 2014 and got hammered by it. People gave me shit for praising Dorsey for not spending a shitload on Jairus Byrd, Desean Jackson, and for stockpiling comp picks. Similarly, Herm deserves a lot of credit for showing the same restraint including passing multiple times on a chance to bring in Chad Pennington.

Sure, not going out and over-spending on free agents is a good thing. I'm not saying he should have. You keep thinking I am, but I'm not. You can find FA's that have VALUE. Similar to a draft prospect, you can look at tape of a FA, and say I can work with that in my system. They don't have to be stars, but they have to outperform their contract. That is how good teams run FA's, save for Green Bay that never brings anybody in.

Herm fucking failed miserably at personnel because he could not bring in an FA that was worth a shit. Sure he ran 120 or whatever the number was off UDFA's through here and all that yielded....Dantrell Savage. Let's not pretend he didn't take a bunch of swings and whiffs. Like that goddamned UDFA WR that he wanted to run the option for him (fuck Herm. Seriously.).

Herm failed miserably at constructing a roster that could be competitive. You can whine about DV, despite the remarkably higher number of guys that went on to play 3 years than Herm had. You can whine about the cap, that he had 3 years to fix. You can whine about Herm being misunderstood and that the ENTIRE NFL was missing the boat on "good" players like Tank Tyler and Turk McBride. You can whine about having to turn the roster over, despite other teams doing it and not being a fucking joke. But the bottom line is this:

tl;dr Herm failed at building a roster that was even remotely close to competing. Fuck Herm.

[Buehler445]

But yet nobody bats an eye when people over-the-top rip on his legacy all the time. Completely at random. In ways we never did with actual ****-ups like Romeo.

Romeo was a puppet of the Pioli Reich. I have many many Pioli rants on this website. But you keep bringing up Romeo. Romeo wasn't the problem Pioli was. In quite the similar vein Herm was the problem because Herm was fucking horrible and made the franchise a completely uncompetitive fucking joke.

I even said in my initial post that you think is absurd that Pioli was technically worse. But it didn't matter nearly as much because Herm had already made the fucking franchise a joke. A motherfucking joke. Our Chiefs. A joke.

[FloridaMan88]

Herm set the Chiefs franchise back 10 years.

For someone on this board to still defend him is disgraceful.

[Buehler445]

Herm was an overrated scout of talent.

Brodie Croyle, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Glenn Dorsey.

That is Herm's selected QBOTF and defensive line of the future that he absolutely bombed.

This. If here were a good talent evaluator he'd have compiled enough talent to win far more than 2 games after 3 years of building a team. He found 6 good players and a handful of average dudes and left like 40 spots filled with complete shit.

If he could evaluate talent, he'd have been able to find some cheap guys to fill some of those holes.

[Buehler445]

I'm a little disturbed at the passion and time invested over Herm's legacy.

It is appalling to me that anyone would call his time here anything other than catastrophic.

[FloridaMan88]

This. If here were a good talent evaluator he'd have compiled enough talent to win far more than 2 games after 3 years of building a team. He found 6 good players and a handful of average dudes and left like 40 spots filled with complete shit.

If he could evaluate talent, he'd have been able to find some cheap guys to fill some of those holes.

Really Herm had two good draft picks... Charles and Tamba. And with both of these players Herm had no clue how to maximize their potential.

After Charles and Tamba, Herm's next "successes" were Bernard Pollard (a journeyman player who has bounced around to multiple teams in his career), Dwayne Bowe (a few good seasons, otherwise an underachieving player), Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers and Branden Albert who all eventually became expendable/not worth big contracts to retain.

That isn't a great draft track record... especially when you look back at the 2008 draft when Herm had TWELVE freaking draft picks, including 2 first rounders and three third rounders.

[Buehler445]

Really Herm had two good draft picks... Charles and Tamba. And with both of these players Herm had no clue how to maximize their potential.

After Charles and Tamba, Herm's next "successes" were Bernard Pollard (a journeyman player who has bounced around to multiple teams in his career), Dwayne Bowe (a few good seasons, otherwise an underachieving player), Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers and Branden Albert who all eventually became expendable/not worth big contracts to retain.

That isn't a great draft track record... especially when you look back at the 2008 draft when Herm had TWELVE freaking draft picks, including 2 first rounders and three third rounders.

It also bears noting that zilla insists that Herm demanded to go young. Yet he stuck with LJ after he fucking killed him for EVERY SINGLE SNAP until he got hurt and couldn't go anymore and they went went from 3 YPC to 5YPC when Charles stepped on the field with the same shitacular talent.

Herm the great talent evaluator couldn't get Charles on the field to even spell LJ for a few snaps during his vaunted youth movement.

Herm was a fucking joke.

[chiefzilla1501]

Really Herm had two good draft picks... Charles and Tamba. And with both of these players Herm had no clue how to maximize their potential.

After Charles and Tamba, Herm's next "successes" were Bernard Pollard (a journeyman player who has bounced around to multiple teams in his career), Dwayne Bowe (a few good seasons, otherwise an underachieving player), Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers and Branden Albert who all eventually became expendable/not worth big contracts to retain.

That isn't a great draft track record... especially when you look back at the 2008 draft when Herm had TWELVE freaking draft picks, including 2 first rounders and three third rounders.

So now we're not giving credit for draft picks that became too good that they wanted an expensive second contract? That sounds reasonable.

[chiefzilla1501]

It also bears noting that zilla insists that Herm demanded to go young. Yet he stuck with LJ after he ****ing killed him for EVERY SINGLE SNAP until he got hurt and couldn't go anymore and they went went from 3 YPC to 5YPC when Charles stepped on the field with the same shitacular talent.

Herm the great talent evaluator couldn't get Charles on the field to even spell LJ for a few snaps during his vaunted youth movement.

Herm was a ****ing joke.

So you bring up one example where they didn't start a rookie over a pro bowl, 27 year old RB as your example of not committing to a youth movement? Herm also went with Tony Gonzalez and Brian Waters. But that's a small blip compared to all the veterans that were slashed.

[Buehler445]

Really Herm had two good draft picks... Charles and Tamba. And with both of these players Herm had no clue how to maximize their potential.

After Charles and Tamba, Herm's next "successes" were Bernard Pollard (a journeyman player who has bounced around to multiple teams in his career), Dwayne Bowe (a few good seasons, otherwise an underachieving player), Brandon Carr, Brandon Flowers and Branden Albert who all eventually became expendable/not worth big contracts to retain.

That isn't a great draft track record... especially when you look back at the 2008 draft when Herm had TWELVE freaking draft picks, including 2 first rounders and three third rounders.

That's a little harsh. I'd probably call all those guys good draft picks. Even conceding those, the rest of the team is just a giant heap of hot garbage. That is inexcusable for the guy whose ONLY redeeming qualities were personnel. Even if you want to point to his mediocre drafting and call it "good".

[Buehler445]

So you bring up one example where they didn't start a rookie over a pro bowl, 27 year old RB as your example of not committing to a youth movement? Herm also went with Tony Gonzalez and Brian Waters. But that's a small blip compared to all the veterans that were slashed.

If he were so good at personnel could he not look at practice and say, "This little firecracker can run. Let's get him 8 of LJ's carries because he is running at 3 YPC".

Just because you run a huge number of young guys out there doesn't mean you know WTF you are doing.

But I wrote a goddamned novel 3 posts above and you choose to fight me on this?

EDIT: It was like 6 posts sorry.

[BigCatDaddy]

Herm was an overrated scout of talent.

Brodie Croyle, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Glenn Dorsey.

That is Herm's selected QBOTF and defensive line of the future that he absolutely bombed.

Im not going to hash this but he also had some nice hits early and late in drafts. Over rated is a generic term but he was at least above average regarding talent evaluation for a HC.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm set the Chiefs franchise back 10 years.

For someone on this board to still defend him is disgraceful.

10 years? What a fucking joke.

Look at the roster I showed above which is what Herm left behind. A strong 2009 offseason where we draft Sanchez (average, but still a mile better than what we had). $57M to bring in 3 or 4 bonafide quality starters. And hitting on 1 or 2 other draft picks, and that team is very competitive in 2009 for a legit coach, which Herm was not. If Reid and Dorsey joined forces in 2009, they could have easily turned that team into a decent team by year 1.

[FloridaMan88]

So now we're not giving credit for draft picks that became too good that they wanted an expensive second contract? That sounds reasonable.

Wrong.

They were not good enough to justify expensive second contracts.

[Buehler445]

Im not going to hash this but he also had some nice hits early and late in drafts. Over rated is a generic term but he was at least above average regarding talent evaluation for a HC.

No he absolutely was not. If he were a good talent evaluator, he could have found some guys to fill the 30 or 40 holes that his decent picks didn't fill.

Talent evaluation does not stop at the draft. In a salary capped sport you have to find production at lower cost than the competitors. That's why everyone looks at the draft as the answer, but certainly equally as importantly is the free agent market. In order to be a good talent evaluator, you have to find guys at low cost that can produce.

Herm absolutely under no circumstances did that. He fielded an absolute shit roster save a few guys he managed to find. So now he is a good talent evaluator? GTFO He was a shit coach. He was a shit personnel guy. He was a shit manager. He is a shit analyst.

[Buehler445]

10 years? What a fucking joke.

Look at the roster I showed above which is what Herm left behind. A strong 2009 offseason where we draft Sanchez (average, but still a mile better than what we had). $57M to bring in 3 or 4 bonafide quality starters. And hitting on 1 or 2 other draft picks, and that team is very competitive in 2009 for a legit coach, which Herm was not. If Reid and Dorsey joined forces in 2009, they could have easily turned that team into a decent team by year 1.

You are hung up on the idea that a few guys will TURN IT ALL AROUND. It doesn't. You can have 22 good guys on O and D and 3 good specialists, but you still won't be good. It takes good ST guys (Which Herm was just abysmal at) as well as some depth because most of the players aren't playing every snap.

Herm wasn't even close to getting a decent roster composed.

[FloridaMan88]

Im not going to hash this but he also had some nice hits early and late in draft

Not anymore than Vermeil/Peterson did.

For all of the shit that is spoken about regarding the Chiefs draft record under Vermeil/Peterson, they still found some productive guys in the later rounds of the draft.

Monty Beisel, Derrick Blaylock, Scott Fujita, Jared Allen, Dustin Colquitt... all guys that were drafted 3rd round and lower by Vermeil/Peterson.

[chiefzilla1501]

No, it's not easy. But you HAVE to get production out low income guys to have a decent team in a salary cap sport. Herm did not do that. Herm ****ing sucked shit. His team that he built sucked shit. He did not do us any favors. He was horrible. You refuse to admit it.

The QB thing, I don't know why you're hung up on it. Herm had to do something. He blew a third rounder on a guy that was horrible. Won 0 NFL games ever. Dorsey spent 2 seconds on a guy that is servicable. Either one is very good, but to act like Herm did the better thing is just absurd.
I didn't say Herm did the better thing. I said that when Dorsey took over, there was an urgency to win now When Herm took over, there was an urgency to tear apart and rebuild. An Alex Smith like trade probably didn't make sense during the Herm years in way it did when Dorsey took over.

This must be where you and I disagree. The roster that he filled out was shit. He had dudes that flat out couldn't play at a lot of positions. We are looking at a competent personnel guy fill out the Chiefs in 3 years after an abysmal season. Look at the depth on the Chiefs team vs what it was in 08. It's not even funny. Herm hit on some guys. Whoo hoo. Any personnel guy can hit on some guys. Herm just filled the roster with complete hogshit outside of your 10 guys or whatever number you want to pick and say, "LOOK AT WHUT THE HERMZ DID, GUIZ". The team was shit.

Herm found a few guys, sure. But pointing to those guys as the basis for telling me I'm absurd for saying he wrecked the franchise is complete and utter shit. As as been pointed out, any football guy can come up with a few dudes, even the master of team trashing Pioli. Finding 6 guys that are good and a few more that belong on a roster does not excuse the complete and utter ****-up he dragged this franchise through. Are ways good teams turn the roster over and the good teams don't go 2-14.
Did Herm do an amazing job? No. But wreck is an absurd word. Wreck implies that he left Pioli with a mess. He inherited a mess and left a really good situation for Pioli.

Sure, not going out and over-spending on free agents is a good thing. I'm not saying he should have. You keep thinking I am, but I'm not. You can find FA's that have VALUE. Similar to a draft prospect, you can look at tape of a FA, and say I can work with that in my system. They don't have to be stars, but they have to outperform their contract. That is how good teams run FA's, save for Green Bay that never brings anybody in.

Herm ****ing failed miserably at personnel because he could not bring in an FA that was worth a shit. Sure he ran 120 or whatever the number was off UDFA's through here and all that yielded....Dantrell Savage. Let's not pretend he didn't take a bunch of swings and whiffs. Like that goddamned UDFA WR that he wanted to run the option for him (**** Herm. Seriously.).

Herm failed miserably at constructing a roster that could be competitive. You can whine about DV, despite the remarkably higher number of guys that went on to play 3 years than Herm had. You can whine about the cap, that he had 3 years to fix. You can whine about Herm being misunderstood and that the ENTIRE NFL was missing the boat on "good" players like Tank Tyler and Turk McBride. You can whine about having to turn the roster over, despite other teams doing it and not being a ****ing joke. But the bottom line is this:

tl;dr Herm failed at building a roster that was even remotely close to competing. **** Herm.

Most GMs can hide blemishes on the roster by making a few big FA moves over 3 years, but also sprinkling in a ton of small moves. While adding Howard, Parker, etc... is brilliant, we also spent a shitload on Vance Walker, Fasano, etc.... So overall, we spent a lot of money on these stopgap small moves in total. I agree that we didn't do great from the FA haul. But it's also unfair to compare him to, say, Pioli who inherited $57M in cap space. $57M allows you a lot of wiggle room to fuck up on guys like Winston and Boss and Breaston.

So because Herm had no cap room to work with by 2008, how many of these small moves did we hold off on making that could have hidden a few of our blemishes? Given Carl Peterson's history of trying to put lipstick on a pig (arguably, probably the only reason we signed Huard to that ridiculous contract), I think we're really undermining how radical a direction it was for Herm to say enough with this band-aid bullshit, let's do a true rebuild. Over the many years in Kansas City, it is one of the only times we made the bold move to commit to a rebuild of this size.

[BigRichard]

The argument is still going? :shake:

[Buehler445]

I didn't say Herm did the better thing. I said that when Dorsey took over, there was an urgency to win now When Herm took over, there was an urgency to tear apart and rebuild. An Alex Smith like trade probably didn't make sense during the Herm years in way it did when Dorsey took over.

So Herm was horrible. Got it. And finding a QB when you don't have one always makes sense.


Did Herm do an amazing job? No. But wreck is an absurd word. Wreck implies that he left Pioli with a mess. He inherited a mess and left a really good situation for Pioli.

WTF? Really good position? I think there were 42 new guys on the 53 man roster in Pioli's first year. Yay. He had some cap money to work with BUT THERE WAS NO TALENT. That is a fucking wreck.



Most GMs can hide blemishes on the roster by making a few big FA moves over 3 years, but also sprinkling in a ton of small moves. While adding Howard, Parker, etc... is brilliant, we also spent a shitload on Vance Walker, Fasano, etc.... So overall, we spent a lot of money on these stopgap small moves in total. I agree that we didn't do great from the FA haul. But it's also unfair to compare him to, say, Pioli who inherited $57M in cap space. $57M allows you a lot of wiggle room to fuck up on guys like Winston and Boss and Breaston.

So because Herm had no cap room to work with by 2008, how many of these small moves did we hold off on making that could have hidden a few of our blemishes? Given Carl Peterson's history of trying to put lipstick on a pig (arguably, probably the only reason we signed Huard to that ridiculous contract), I think we're really undermining how radical a direction it was for Herm to say enough with this band-aid bullshit, let's do a true rebuild. Over the many years in Kansas City, it is one of the only times we made the bold move to commit to a rebuild of this size.

I'm not going to go through and find guys they should have signed. But if he were a good personnel man he would have found someone that could play. That's the bottom line. They find guys that can play.

Your problem is you drank the Herm Koolaid about rebuilds. Good teams don't need to suck awful shit to turnover their roster. Even with tremendous cap restrictions, that the Chiefs faced this season, Dorsey still managed to make this team better than last years team.

Teams that go all in and get early picks aren't rebuilding they just blow nutsack. Teams are built through the depth and bottom half of the roster not a couple elite guys. It goes back to finding production for value of the cap. By 2008 Herm had enough cap to go find some dudes that can play. And again, they don't have to be expensive ones. Good talent evaluators find guys that outplay their contract.

He did fucking none of that. He found a small number of guys that could play and huge number of guys that couldn't. He wrecked the fucking franchise. He took over a contender and transformed it into a 2 win fucking team. So what he got a few guys that could play. The team was total fucking trash. Because he wrecked it.

[Buehler445]

The argument is still going? :shake:

Zilla just said that Herm left the team in a "really good position"

By wrecking the fucking franchise.

[chiefzilla1501]

WTF? Really good position? I think there were 42 new guys on the 53 man roster in Pioli's first year. Yay. He had some cap money to work with BUT THERE WAS NO TALENT. That is a ****ing wreck.

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009:

QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)
RB - Charles / Battle / Cox
OL - Albert / Waters / Wade Smith / De la Puenta / Barry Richardson
WR - Bowe / nobody
TE - Gonzalez

DL - Hali / Dorsey / Edwards / Turk
LB - DJ / Pat Thomas / Demorrio Williams
CB - Carr / Flowers
S - Page / Pollard

K - Barth
P - Colquitt

Imaging bring in Haynesworth or Peppers. Vilma and/or Dansby. We had $57M to spend. Are you telling me this isn't the nucleus for a potentially pretty good team, even behind an average QB? That roster above is not a terrible one to inherit. Throw in the #3 pick in every round.

He took over a contender and transformed it into a 2 win ****ing team. So what he got a few guys that could play. The team was total ****ing trash. Because he wrecked it.
He didn't coach the contender to a playoff win in 2006. As I've said before, he wasn't a good game day coach. But that is total garbage to say he turned a contender into a 2-win team. That contender needed to be blown up. And make no mistake. It needed to be blown up. Not band-aided. Not fixed. It had to be blown up, and it took a bold decision to do it. And it should have saved us 3-5 years of painful rebuilding disguised as mediocrity but Pioli completely fumbled on it

[beach tribe]

Right. That has nothing to do with Carl Peterson and DV criminally mismanaging the team so that the team was a sinking Titanic after DV left. Vermeil left the team ridiculously old, in horrendous salary cap shape, and with literally less than a handful of players under 30 who even belonged on an NFL roster.
Pioli did the exact same thing to Dorsey. He left him with NOTHING other than the home runs.

The roster was pure shit.

He shit canned a massive number of players and they were never heard from again.
Then he identified enough enough quality players to fill out the roster and immediately start winning football games.

Herm was a joke.

[chiefzilla1501]

Pioli did the exact same thing to Dorsey. He left him with NOTHING other than the home runs.

The roster was pure shit.

He shit canned a massive number of players and they were never heard from again.
Then he identified enough enough quality players to fill out the roster and immediately start winning football games.

Herm was a joke.

The difference is that Herm left pioli with an immaculate salary cap situation and a young roster. It was something to build upon. Vermeil left Herm with a roster that had to be blown up no matter who was coaching. It was not a roster to build off of.

Dorsey didn't inherit a mess. The cap situation wasn't great but it wasn't dire. There was just a talent drain. Very big difference.

[Buehler445]

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009:

QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)
RB - Charles / Battle / Cox
OL - Albert / Waters / Wade Smith / De la Puenta / Barry Richardson
WR - Bowe / nobody
TE - Gonzalez

DL - Hali / Dorsey / Edwards / Turk
LB - DJ / Pat Thomas / Demorrio Williams
CB - Carr / Flowers
S - Page / Pollard

K - Barth
P - Colquitt

Imaging bring in Haynesworth or Peppers. Vilma and/or Dansby. We had $57M to spend. Are you telling me this isn't the nucleus for a potentially pretty good team, even behind an average QB? That roster above is not a terrible one to inherit. Throw in the #3 pick in every round.


He didn't coach the contender to a playoff win in 2006. As I've said before, he wasn't a good game day coach. But that is total garbage to say he turned a contender into a 2-win team. That contender needed to be blown up. And make no mistake. It needed to be blown up. Not band-aided. Not fixed. It had to be blown up, and it took a bold decision to do it. And it should have saved us 3-5 years of painful rebuilding disguised as mediocrity but Pioli completely fumbled on it

Yeah. You don't just win with average starters. The rest of the team was a fire fire. Throwing a couple big name players at it doesn't change the fact that 10 or so guys that play significant snaps on offense defense and ST can't play. Go get some FA with your 57 M and you'll still have a team with no depth because Herm was a shit talent evaluator. For every Pollard you have to account for all the no name motherfuckers he whiffed on. Just as you are bringing up about Dorsey. It takes more than 25 guys to make a team that's worth a fuck. Especially if you're hangin your hat on players of Barry Rochardson caliber as the good guys.

Bottom line is this. If he were a good talent evaluator 3 years is enough time to get enough decent players in there to not stink it up to the tune of 14 losses.

[Iconic]

Thread successfully derailed.

[Buehler445]

Thread successfully derailed.

Yeah. Sorry. My fault. But I can't let shit go like Herm ballwashing. I just can't do it.

[Iconic]

Yeah. Sorry. My fault. But I can't let shit go like Herm ballwashing. I just can't do it.

You both are very passionate about this. I can respect that.

[Sully]

Herm brought back the white on whites... for a fucking home game.


Fuck Herm.

[FloridaMan88]

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009: QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)

Herm was already wed to his QBOTF Broken Croyle.

You remember Broken Croyle, the QB that talent evaluator extraordinaire Herm handpicked to be the Chiefs QBOTF.

[Buehler445]

Herm was already wed to his QBOTF Broken Croyle.

You remember Broken Croyle, the QB that talent evaluator extraordinaire Herm handpicked to be the Chiefs QBOTF.

That won 0 NFL games. Ever.

[Buehler445]

Herm brought back the white on whites... for a fucking home game.


Fuck Herm.

That was Herm? WTF? JFC. :cuss:

[chiefzilla1501]

Yeah. You don't just win with average starters. The rest of the team was a fire fire. Throwing a couple big name players at it doesn't change the fact that 10 or so guys that play significant snaps on offense defense and ST can't play. Go get some FA with your 57 M and you'll still have a team with no depth because Herm was a shit talent evaluator. For every Pollard you have to account for all the no name mother****ers he whiffed on. Just as you are bringing up about Dorsey. It takes more than 25 guys to make a team that's worth a ****. Especially if you're hangin your hat on players of Barry Rochardson caliber as the good guys.

Bottom line is this. If he were a good talent evaluator 3 years is enough time to get enough decent players in there to not stink it up to the tune of 14 losses.

So we all acknowledge that the Chiefs brought in about 9 guys who could start: Albert, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Pollard, Barth, Page. 9 guys and 1 kicker in 3 years, with the majority of them being very good players at really difficult positions? That's a decent young haul for 3 years, especially considering we picked from #23 and #20 the first 2 years.

So we drafted well. We didn't bring in many good FAs because we weren't actively looking because of our cap situation. So from a personnel standpoint, the big knock is that he didn't pull in a lot of talent from the scrap heap. Fair point. But it's also not necessarily something that gets pinned on your coach very often.

Again, with a fair cap situation, we would have had more ability to bring in cheap free agents to fill in gaps. Had we gone after the FA market, we could have easily brought in maybe 4 or 5 starters in those 3 years. But we didn't do pursue those markets. So while I agree the free agent haul wasn't great, you can't compare that to a regime like Pioli's or Dorsey's that was actively looking to bring in free agents and spend money. Actually, an even bigger knock on Pioli is that for whatever dumb reason, he decided to sit on a bunch of money in 2009.

[Predarat]

Hahah wow. You play to win the game and shut up and hand the ball to the refs! DntTwit

[Buehler445]

So we all acknowledge that the Chiefs brought in about 9 guys who could start: Albert, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Pollard, Barth, Page. 9 guys and 1 kicker in 3 years, with the majority of them being very good players at really difficult positions? That's a decent young haul for 3 years, especially considering we picked from #23 and #20 the first 2 years.

So we drafted well. We didn't bring in many good FAs because we weren't actively looking because of our cap situation. So from a personnel standpoint, the big knock is that he didn't pull in a lot of talent from the scrap heap. Fair point. But it's also not necessarily something that gets pinned on your coach very often.

Again, with a fair cap situation, we would have had more ability to bring in cheap free agents to fill in gaps. Had we gone after the FA market, we could have easily brought in maybe 4 or 5 starters in those 3 years. But we didn't do pursue those markets. So while I agree the free agent haul wasn't great, you can't compare that to a regime like Pioli's or Dorsey's that was actively looking to bring in free agents and spend money. Actually, an even bigger knock on Pioli is that for whatever dumb reason, he decided to sit on a bunch of money in 2009.

Eh I don't know if I'd call 9 guys and a kicker that was horrible the one year we are talking about but went on to be decent a job well done. You are still buying the impact player crap. It takes a team to win. You can have 2 great corners and 2 great safeties but if your nickel guy can't cover my grandma, you haven't got shit. I'd call 9 guys and a kicker coupled with a truckload of rat shit a shitterrible offseason.

And Herm definitely could have found some cheap FA. Look at Spencer Ware. His cap hit is $360,000. Chris Conley's cap hit is $712,434. Link (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/) So whatever preconceived notion that you have that FA have to be expensive is incorrect. Again, the important thing is getting guys that outplay their salary.

Herm didn't not get FAs because they were too expensive. He didn't get FAs because he was bad at talent evaluation, which again, you have admitted was his ONLY redeeming quality.

Herm was horrible.

[Marcellus]

At the 2010 Chiefs kickoff luncheon I sat at the table with Tamba Hali. He told us when Herm was coach they never game planned on defense. He just told them to go play. he said they did more game planning at Penn State than when Herm was coach.

[mcaj22]

Pretty sure that year between Herm/Fat Scott we did PULL in talent off the scrap heap. Wade Smith was already on the team and Fat Scott cut him before giving him a chance. Same with Jason Babin, Brian De La Puente, Connor Barth.

There were some starting caliber players at the end of the roster and Fat Scott never even bothered to evaluate them. That's the difference today, Dorsey will evaluate those guys and we are seeing the results on Sunday right in front of our eyes.

But yea we could have won with that rookie class and the starters we ended up cutting for nothing because our GM at the time had an ego the size of the solar system.

[suzzer99]

Tamba also said Herm's conditioning program was shit. Don't think he liked Herm very much.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

The main thing I take from this thread is that there are people out there with a ton of free time.

[Chiefnj2]

He handed over a franchise in terrific shape .

If they were in "terrific" shape they would have won more than a handful of games.

Also, I think leaving a team in good or bad shape is overrated because if you have a GM/coaching change, they are going to build their own system with their own players.

[Bowser]

I like how chiefzilla acknowledges how Herm was never a good X's or O's kind of coach right off the bat, but goes on for over a hundred posts to defend how he didn't bring the team down.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

NFL has Herm come in regularly to talk to rookies about making good decisions in life especially as they are vulnerable to make bad ones as their fame status grows. Frustrates him despite his annual talk a lot of them go off and do dumb things both personally and financially that puts them in the focus of the media and him being a proud African American, it really ticks him off to see the Josh Gordons, the Aldon Smiths, Ray Rice, etc.

I for one am glad Reid is our head coach because he is so good at fostering the idea of the team, rather than allowing players making it about themselves

[Bowser]

Herm brought back the white on whites... for a fucking home game.


Fuck Herm.

All of this. Herm breaks out the tampon look for the home opener, and Trent Green promptly gets his brain spun around 360 degrees in his skullcase. The hell with that guy.

[chiefzilla1501]

Eh I don't know if I'd call 9 guys and a kicker that was horrible the one year we are talking about but went on to be decent a job well done. You are still buying the impact player crap. It takes a team to win. You can have 2 great corners and 2 great safeties but if your nickel guy can't cover my grandma, you haven't got shit. I'd call 9 guys and a kicker coupled with a truckload of rat shit a shitterrible offseason.

And Herm definitely could have found some cheap FA. Look at Spencer Ware. His cap hit is $360,000. Chris Conley's cap hit is $712,434. Link (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/) So whatever preconceived notion that you have that FA have to be expensive is incorrect. Again, the important thing is getting guys that outplay their salary.

Herm didn't not get FAs because they were too expensive. He didn't get FAs because he was bad at talent evaluation, which again, you have admitted was his ONLY redeeming quality.

Herm was horrible.

I don't have a preconceived notion that all free agency is expensive. But you can't rule out that if the Chiefs spent on long-term free agents, they could have easily added to those 17 - 25 contributors. It also allows you to buy lots of small contributors. Fasano, Schwartz, Vickerson, Branch, etc.... these guys were cheap, but they're not that cheap for a team trying to clean their cap up.

I don't think Herm was great at talent evaluation. Much credit goes to Kuharich and the scouts. But (LJ aside) he generally put the right guys over the field, insisted on a youth movement (right thing to do), and yes the decision to blow up the roster was absolutely correct and it was extremely ballsy.

My point all along is and always has been: there are a lot worse coaches than Herm, but I never wanted his 9-7 ceiling. But he made bold moves during the rebuild most coaches wouldn't, and they put the team in a good situation in 2009. You may not agree with the talent that was on there. But it was smart to show massive restrain in free agency vs. band-aiding. It was smart to clean the roster up from lots of bad contracts. It was smart to get your young guys out there early to sink or swim. Any reasonable GM should have taken that 2009 roster and immediately turned them into at least an 8-8 team. I truly believe that.

[chiefzilla1501]

I like how chiefzilla acknowledges how Herm was never a good X's or O's kind of coach right off the bat, but goes on for over a hundred posts to defend how he didn't bring the team down.

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

[chiefzilla1501]

If they were in "terrific" shape they would have won more than a handful of games.

Also, I think leaving a team in good or bad shape is overrated because if you have a GM/coaching change, they are going to build their own system with their own players.

Then leaving behind a roster that isn't tied down to a bunch of overpriced veterans on uncuttable contracts, and giving the new GM $57M in monopoly to spend is terrific shape for a regime transition.

[FloridaMan88]

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

Yes it is a waste of years.

The players who had to play under Herm's incompetence don't get those years back on their careers.

[Bowser]

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

https://media.riffsy.com/images/802d648b6ebbfe351455c3cb5e5f7fc0/raw

[Buehler445]

I don't have a preconceived notion that all free agency is expensive. But you can't rule out that if the Chiefs spent on long-term free agents, they could have easily added to those 17 - 25 contributors. It also allows you to buy lots of small contributors. Fasano, Schwartz, Vickerson, Branch, etc.... these guys were cheap, but they're not that cheap for a team trying to clean their cap up.

I don't think Herm was great at talent evaluation. Much credit goes to Kuharich and the scouts. But (LJ aside) he generally put the right guys over the field, insisted on a youth movement (right thing to do), and yes the decision to blow up the roster was absolutely correct and it was extremely ballsy.

My point all along is and always has been: there are a lot worse coaches than Herm, but I never wanted his 9-7 ceiling. But he made bold moves during the rebuild most coaches wouldn't, and they put the team in a good situation in 2009. You may not agree with the talent that was on there. But it was smart to show massive restrain in free agency vs. band-aiding. It was smart to clean the roster up from lots of bad contracts. It was smart to get your young guys out there early to sink or swim. Any reasonable GM should have taken that 2009 roster and immediately turned them into at least an 8-8 team. I truly believe that.

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.

[lewdog]

Holy shit, this argument is still going today for pages and pages!

Who knew Herm did the dirty with Buehler's wife!?!?

[tk13]

Well this is an impressively long argument. I actually do think Herm and Kuharich had some real nice hits in the draft. And he somehow won the struggle with Carl to make this team younger. We weren't quite the salary cap disaster that this thread paints it as... but Herm did turn the roster over and make it younger.

Herm probably took over a team in better shape than Vermeil did, even though we didn't draft very well under Vermeil... both him and Carl were basically going for it. Carl should not have survived to see another coach. When Vermeil took over we were really in a bad cap situation... all kinds of dead money from Dan Williams, Carlton Gray, etc. Vermeil even said if he knew what terrible shape this franchise was in, he probably wouldn't have taken the job. Him and Saunders cleaned a lot of that mess out and built a great offense on the cheap. Obviously not the same with the defense. But when Herm took over we were just getting old.

Although I've always said I think both DV and Herm were undercut by Carl... especially by forcing Gunther on both of them. Wasted 5 years trying to relive the glory days, and as soon as both coaches were fired Gunther chucked them both right under the bus. Real nice work.

[Buehler445]

Holy shit, this argument is still going today for pages and pages!

Who knew Herm did the dirty with Buehler's wife!?!?

Not the wife. Although she hates him probably more than I do. Herm fucked my soul for the game. He killed a shitton of interest in the game because we were a fucking joke. Dudes show up to arrowhead whip that pussy for a half and get a chance to rest the starters. Pioli went ahead and pissed on the grave of my fandom but for the first time in my life the Chiefs entered games with no chance to win or even be competitive.

Herm took a franchise you could root for and have a chance at doing something and turned it into a fucking joke. And somehow miraculously parlayed that into an analyst career. One in which he's constantly a fucking clown schtick. And then berates mitherfucker a for not being professional.

Fuck Herm.

[chiefzilla1501]

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.
He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.
Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.
No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

[WhiteWhale]

Herm was a guy who scapegoated everyone around him and always spotlighted himself.

When Herm left KC they were one of the least talented teams in the league. He had enough time. I can't believe people here are still defending him.

I don't want to hear about the 2008 draft, which was one of the deepest pools of talent to come around... AND he had bonus picks because of the Allen trade. Even a semi-competent guy nets 2-3 quality players with a dozen picks that year. Charles had a first round grade from a lot of teams. He fell into our lap.

[Buehler445]

He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You said he was a junk coach, but he brought in good guys so he was a pass. I finally get you to see that the roster wasn't talented and now he's a good coach again? No he was a good coach because Waters was still there and he hadn't killed LJ yet. Until he did, but whatever, you said he was bad at coaching, so cool I guess.


Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

I didn't say he took a playoff squad and turned them into 2-14 (even though he did). I never said Vermeil was bad. You started the comparisons to Vermeil. I merely discovered that he had far more guys that played 3 additional years than Herm did.

What I said was he took a proud competitive franchise and turned it into a joke. If you don't think the Thigpistol and the D that yielded 4 fucking sacks is not a joke, then you have a very serious sense of humor.

And you're going to put 08 on Vermeil? There weren't even any of his dudes left. They were all Herm's dudes. And they had some money so don't run that cap shit at me again.


No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

Yes. Yes they do. Remember the Steelers being OLD AS FUCK. Then they built a defense. Then they drafted Ben. Then they won Super Bowls. Then they got old as fuck again. Now their defense isn't stellar but they're all over the Super Bowl radar because Ben rapes faces. Never even got close to 2-14.

Remember how old the Cheatriots were after Moss and company left? They got real young real fast and didn't shit the fucking bed.

Hell even the Ravens who were old as fuck are currently 4-9. And Flacco died. And Suggs Died. And Steve Smith died. But still they're not even done and they still managed twice as many wins as Herm's boys.

Remember when Harbitch made the 9ers young? They went....oh that's right. They never sucked shit. And they were a true tire fire. And you can't run the "But they haz QB." shit at me.

Remember when the Giants were old after they won a super bowl? They were old as fuck. Where was their 2 win year?

Bottom line: YOU DON'T HAVE TO SUCK TO TURN IT AROUND.

[CoMoChief]

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

LOL what?

Regardless if you're in a "rebuilding mode", your ultimate goal as a franchise is to (every season) compete to win for a SB. Herm's teams never did that outside of backing into the playoffs in 2006. That team was a fraud standing on it's last legs from an old previous aging regime, only to completely implode in the playoffs. If you're not good enough to make the post-season dance, then at least you see progress in the team from season to season. Under Herm there was literally no progression.

Even though Herm landed a handful of good draft picks (Hali, Bowe, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Albert) his teams collectively got worse and worse each year. And that's not even remotely debatable.

[chiefzilla1501]

LOL what?

Regardless if you're in a "rebuilding mode", your ultimate goal as a franchise is to (every season) compete to win for a SB. Herm's teams never did that outside of backing into the playoffs in 2006. That team was a fraud standing on it's last legs from an old previous aging regime, only to completely implode in the playoffs. If you're not good enough to make the post-season dance, then at least you see progress in the team from season to season. Under Herm there was literally no progression.

Even though Herm landed a handful of good draft picks (Hali, Bowe, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Albert) his teams collectively got worse and worse each year. And that's not even remotely debatable.

It is seriously astounding to me that people on here can't see that the team post vermeil needed to be blown up.

That team had to get worse to get better.

[Buehler445]

It is seriously astounding to me that people on here can't see that the team post vermeil needed to be blown up.

That team had to get worse to get better.

Where in the actual fuck did I ever say that we could just roll on with Vermeil's guys?

FFS every coaching or GM change comes with significant turnover. It was going to happen anyway. And yes, the cap wasn't spectacular.

But to sit here and defend Herm for that abortion he ran out there is a fucking joke. 2-14 is never acceptable. If 2-14 happens it means there was a system wide disaster. It happened with Herm and it happened with Pioli. Just a fucking massive catastrophe.

[chiefzilla1501]

Where in the actual **** did I ever say that we could just roll on with Vermeil's guys?

FFS every coaching or GM change comes with significant turnover. It was going to happen anyway. And yes, the cap wasn't spectacular.

But to sit here and defend Herm for that abortion he ran out there is a ****ing joke. 2-14 is never acceptable. If 2-14 happens it means there was a system wide disaster. It happened with Herm and it happened with Pioli. Just a ****ing massive catastrophe.

No, this wasn't any usual turnover. This was Dan Snyder like cap mismanagement.

Again, we had the NFL's oldest roster. By a mile. We had the worst pipeline of young players due to being the worst drafting team in the vermeil years. By a mile. And we made the problem worse because we kept borrowing future money to try to force a run in 2005. You can't compare this to an ordinary transition.

There are two things that could have salvaged respectability. We should have blown it up in 2006. And you seem to think we should have spent in 2008 to start building the roster - - fair point but I completely disagree.

[Buehler445]

No, this wasn't any usual turnover. This was Dan Snyder like cap mismanagement.

Again, we had the NFL's oldest roster. By a mile. We had the worst pipeline of young players due to being the worst drafting team in the vermeil years. By a mile. And we made the problem worse because we kept borrowing future money to try to force a run in 2005. You can't compare this to an ordinary transition.

There are two things that could have salvaged respectability. We should have blown it up in 2006. And you seem to think we should have spent in 2008 to start building the roster - - fair point but I completely disagree.

I didn't make any assertion that we should have done anything. All I've ever said is that Herm made the team a joke and that it is completely unacceptable. But you're cool with it.

So go Herm I guess?

You can think that 2-14 was a job well done. I'll keep thinking that he wrecked the fucking franchise.

[chiefzilla1501]

I didn't make any assertion that we should have done anything. All I've ever said is that Herm made the team a joke and that it is completely unacceptable. But you're cool with it.

So go Herm I guess?

You can think that 2-14 was a job well done. I'll keep thinking that he wrecked the ****ing franchise.

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

[Rausch]

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

Herm would have made a great GM/Draft room guy.

He was a terrible game day HC...

[FloridaMan88]

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

Fat Scott left a 2-14 team with significant salary cap space and the #1 overall pick for Dorsey/Reid.

Using your logic with Herm, do you give the same praise to Fat Scott's legacy?

[Buehler445]

We are obviously not going to change each others' minds, so I'll quit after this. But the product on the field in 07 and 08 was a complete and utter fucking catastrophe. And under no circumstances is that product anywhere near acceptable. Ever. And that's on Herm. You can sling shit at Vermeil all you want, but you say Herm did good with the personnel and if he had got dudes that can play, the product is infinitely better.

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

The objective of moving on from bad contracts should never ever end in the product on the field. Ever. The product was so bad on the field because he failed miserably to get dudes that could play. Then he doubled down on the fail by not being able coach his way out of a wet paper bag. That was a fucking abortion. And he did it to my team.

And you keep touting the #3 pick as an accomplishment. It's not. It is a quantification of precisely how shitty we were. Go back and look at the top 10 I posted. There was nothing special about 3-10. The best is Raji and he's been anywhere from good to ineffective. And whoo hoo. $57M. No one single FA class is going to turn that around. So he didn't spend any money. He also wrecked the fucking franchise.

Pioli was a fuckstick, but he was not handed the keys to a ferrari.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

No wins are meaningless. I'll tell you again. Good teams don't draft high. You don't need good draft picks to get good talent. You need a good talent elevator which Herm was not. Even if we hit on every draft pick and spent the $57M all on good FA (which never happens to anyone, much less Herm) this still wasn't going to be a good team.

Developing young talent? Fuck that shit. They should have just held self guided practice. Those guys had no discipline, the worst technique in football. So yay, they got some snaps. They also got their heads caved in by guys that were actually talented and knew how to play the game.

Moreover the lockerroom was a cesspool because Herm had killed any will to win with those guys. So, no, I don't view those wins that he fucked off due to absolute incompetence as meaningless. He wrecked the fucking franchise.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

No the 3 years is on Herm. You try to prop him up by saying the 9-7 season was a point to how good he can be, he has to eat shit for the criminal negligence with which executed his job duties. Many other teams get from old to young without completely abandoning seasons from training camp. You can justify it whatever way you want, but Squirmin Herman motherfucking sack of cunt Edwards failed tremendously at every single aspect of his job duties, including personnel.

Fuck Herm.

[chiefzilla1501]

Fat Scott left a 2-14 team with significant salary cap space and the #1 overall pick for Dorsey/Reid.

Using your logic with Herm, do you give the same praise to Fat Scott's legacy?

No. Pioli inherited a really damn good situation. He had an immaculate cap situation where Herm was given a giant credit card bill. He had a young roster to work with which has developmental upside, but also are easier to cut and move around. And he had four years and two top ten picks to do it. Sure, he had plenty of roster gaps to fill, but he had nothing whatsoever standing in his way from doing it.

Pioli had a significantly cleaner situation and one more year to build the team. At least Herm took a bad situation and left it clean. Pioli took a clean situation and barely advanced the puck while racking up some debt along the way.

[chiefzilla1501]

We are obviously not going to change each others' minds, so I'll quit after this. But the product on the field in 07 and 08 was a complete and utter ****ing catastrophe. And under no circumstances is that product anywhere near acceptable. Ever. And that's on Herm. You can sling shit at Vermeil all you want, but you say Herm did good with the personnel and if he had got dudes that can play, the product is infinitely better.



The objective of moving on from bad contracts should never ever end in the product on the field. Ever. The product was so bad on the field because he failed miserably to get dudes that could play. Then he doubled down on the fail by not being able coach his way out of a wet paper bag. That was a ****ing abortion. And he did it to my team.

And you keep touting the #3 pick as an accomplishment. It's not. It is a quantification of precisely how shitty we were. Go back and look at the top 10 I posted. There was nothing special about 3-10. The best is Raji and he's been anywhere from good to ineffective. And whoo hoo. $57M. No one single FA class is going to turn that around. So he didn't spend any money. He also wrecked the ****ing franchise.

Pioli was a ****stick, but he was not handed the keys to a ferrari.



No wins are meaningless. I'll tell you again. Good teams don't draft high. You don't need good draft picks to get good talent. You need a good talent elevator which Herm was not. Even if we hit on every draft pick and spent the $57M all on good FA (which never happens to anyone, much less Herm) this still wasn't going to be a good team.

Developing young talent? **** that shit. They should have just held self guided practice. Those guys had no discipline, the worst technique in football. So yay, they got some snaps. They also got their heads caved in by guys that were actually talented and knew how to play the game.

Moreover the lockerroom was a cesspool because Herm had killed any will to win with those guys. So, no, I don't view those wins that he ****ed off due to absolute incompetence as meaningless. He wrecked the ****ing franchise.



No the 3 years is on Herm. You try to prop him up by saying the 9-7 season was a point to how good he can be, he has to eat shit for the criminal negligence with which executed his job duties. Many other teams get from old to young without completely abandoning seasons from training camp. You can justify it whatever way you want, but Squirmin Herman mother****ing sack of **** Edwards failed tremendously at every single aspect of his job duties, including personnel.

**** Herm.

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

[FloridaMan88]

At least Herm took a bad situation and left it clean. Pioli took a clean situation and barely advanced the puck while racking up some debt along the way.

Herm didn't make it clean.

He saddled the next regime with a terrible QB situation that led to Matt Cassel.

He also saddled the next regime with a defensive line full of draft busts.

[2112]

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

Herm took a top 5 offense in 2005 (that he said he wouldnt mess with) and turned it into a carbon copy garbage predictable offense that the Jets had. the Jets won despite Herm. any drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

How anybody can defend that guy after that Indy playoff game is beyond me. he was a fraud that got exposed and now hes out of football.

[OctoberFart]

Shady spent the offseason partying in Vegas and inviting young girls in Buffalo to parties. He is a turd.

[FloridaMan88]

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

Losing to get high draft picks doesn't mean anything if you can't capitalize on those high draft picks.

Herm picked Glenn Dorsey... a.k.a. Ryan Sims the sequel with the 5th overall pick.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm took a top 5 offense in 2005 (that he said he wouldnt mess with) and turned it into a carbon copy garbage predictable offense that the Jets had. the Jets won despite Herm. any drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

How anybody can defend that guy after that Indy playoff game is beyond me. he was a fraud that got exposed and now hes out of football.

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

[bishop_74]

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Ofp_kHXs--/19e2en1mflkshjpg.jpg

[FloridaMan88]

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

So why are you making such an effort to come to the defense of a .500/mediocre coach (using your words)?

Also Herm's career coaching record is 56-78... making him far from a ".500" head coach.

[chiefzilla1501]

So why are you making such an effort to come to the defense of a .500/mediocre coach (using your words)?

Also Herm's career coaching record is 56-78... making him far from a ".500" head coach.

Because most of the reason people hate the guy is because he is scapegoated for another coach's failures.

He wasn't a good coach but he wasn't terrible. And he didn't wreck the ship, he inherited a ship that was going to get wrecked no matter who took over. I don't defend mediocre which is why I wasn't a fan of the Reid hire. But mediocre is different from terrible.

[TLO]

The main thing I take from this thread is that there are people out there with a ton of free time.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[FloridaMan88]

Because most of the reason people hate the guy is because he is scapegoated for another coach's failures.

He wasn't a good coach but he wasn't terrible. And he didn't wreck the ship, he inherited a ship that was going to get wrecked no matter who took over. I don't defend mediocre which is why I wasn't a fan of the Reid hire. But mediocre is different from terrible.

Herm has a worse career winning % as a head coach than Rich Kotite, who is generally regarded as a terrible HC.

[chiefzilla1501]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Ofp_kHXs--/19e2en1mflkshjpg.jpg

Look at the roster I've shown above.

A GM who wasn't a doofus would have drafted Sanchez at number 3. Would have stuck with a 4-3 and used the 57m in cap space to make a big play for Julius peppers, Haynesworth, and either dansby or Vilma. Kept Gonzalez. And with ljs contract, we would have made the switch from LJ to Charles.

Even with a doofus of a coach, that would have easily have been a. 500 team. 2009 could have been a huge year if pioli didn't completely whiff.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm has a worse career winning % as a head coach than Rich Kotite, who is generally regarded as a terrible HC.

He also has four playoff appearances and two wins. I don't care how talented your team is (and it's not like the Jets were crazy talented), that is not easy to do.

[Frosty]

200+ posts on Herman ****ing Edwards? :facepalm:

Thread Tools > Ignore this thread

[Bowser]

200+ posts on Herman ****ing Edwards? :facepalm:

Thread Tools > Ignore this thread

It's amazing. I think chiefzilla is literally the one person I've met either on here or in real life that feels in any capacity that Herman fucking Edwards was a positive for this franchise. The excuses he makes for him are laughable. For fuck's sake, we've got a Jets fan on here agreeing with all the rest of us, but he still just keeps on with his narrative.

[chiefzilla1501]

It's amazing. I think chiefzilla is literally the one person I've met either on here or in real life that feels in any capacity that Herman ****ing Edwards was a positive for this franchise. The excuses he makes for him are laughable. For ****'s sake, we've got a Jets fan on here agreeing with all the rest of us, but he still just keeps on with his narrative.

There are plenty of people who believe that Herm was okay to good from a personnel standpoint.

And I agree with most of the criticisms of his coaching. Except when people use the word "horrible."

Of course people are going to disagree with me. For some reason, Herm gets an insane amount of criticism and chiefsplanet and fans in general love to live in extremes. People are either 100% terrible or they're Gods. There's nothing in-between. So for you to say Herm did nothing at all positive for the Chiefs, I'll use the word again: that's "ridiculous."

[cooper barrett]

My expectation is that you should have about 45 guys that are legit players. Dorsey can do it, why can't Herm? There are a shitton of guys getting jobs after chiefs now than back then.

And 5 guys? are you kidding me?


Jared Allen is still in the league

Cough, didn't Allen ride off into the sunset , or lack thereof, on his horse when he retired?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjfYY0K5vG4

[KCBOSS1]

I absolutely love everything he had to say and how he said it. I love that He didn't give the F10 answer. I would never want him back as our coach, but I just like him... he's real. I'm old school and I could not agree with him more.

[Cornstock]

Regardless of his coaching ability, his point here is spot on. This is a team game, and the media, for the sake of ratings, have provided a platform for players to detract from the product. One could argue that this drama adds to the product, but I don't buy that.

In defense of Herm, he took over a team in a terrible position roster and salary cap-wise. To make a political analogy that will most likely be over most of CP's head, just because Herbert Hoover presided over the Great Depression doesn't mean he caused it.

[Eleazar]

who the hell says "Shady"?

[Lzen]

Regardless of his coaching ability, his point here is spot on. This is a team game, and the media, for the sake of ratings, have provided a platform for players to detract from the product. One could argue that this drama adds to the product, but I don't buy that.

In defense of Herm, he took over a team in a terrible position roster and salary cap-wise. To make a political analogy that will most likely be over most of CP's head, just because Herbert Hoover presided over the Great Depression doesn't mean he caused it.

I agree with Herm's point here. He was spot on, as you said.

As for his coaching, he is terrible. I would never want him anywhere near the Chiefs again. Well, maybe in the scouting department. The guy does seem to have a good eye for talent. But that's it. He was in way over his head as a NFL head coach.

[TimBone]

To make a political analogy that will most likely be over most of CP's head, just because Herbert Hoover presided over the Great Depression doesn't mean he caused it.

lol.....why would you think that would be over most of our heads?

[Buehler445]

You all realize The OP was 2 years ago, right?

Cooper bumped it when I referenced this thread when Zilla still refuses to put down the Herm banner.

[Rausch]

You all realize The OP was 2 years ago, right?

Cooper bumped it when I referenced this thread when Zilla still refuses to put down the Herm banner.

I think you're missing the point.

[Rasputin]

I don't think they understand that you play to win the game. Hello, you play to win the game.

[Lzen]

You all realize The OP was 2 years ago, right?

Cooper bumped it when I referenced this thread when Zilla still refuses to put down the Herm banner.

Yeah, I figured out that it was from 2 years ago. So what?

[Cornstock]

lol.....why would you think that would be over most of our heads?

The lot, as a whole, don't strike me as history buffs. But I know several of y'all are.

[Reerun_KC]

Herm is aids


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[saphojunkie]

Great bump. Really worthwhile. Cooper Barrett needs to die in a fire.

[SAUTO]

Great bump. Really worthwhile. Cooper Barrett needs to die in a fire.

He sucks

[JakeF]

Huh, what does this thread have to do with anything?

[Marcellus]

He sucks

Definitely a mult. He knows way too much history about posters etc..This bump is a great example.