Pete Rose ban from baseball remains in place

[luv]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14365554/pete-rose-remains-banned-major-league-baseball-per-commissioner-rob-manfred-decision?ex_cid=sportscenterFB&sf16975609=1

The lifetime ban of Major League Baseball career hits leader Pete Rose remains in place, as commissioner Rob Manfred has chosen to keep Rose's banishment in place for gambling on baseball.

MLB said in a statement that Manfred contacted Rose on Monday to inform him of the decision.

Rose and Manfred met in MLB's offices in Manhattan in September, and the commissioner had said he would make a decision on Rose by the end of 2015.

Rose, who was banned from baseball in 1989 after the league's investigation into his gambling, applied for reinstatement for a second time in March. Manfred took over as MLB commissioner in January.

For almost 15 years after being banned, Rose denied he bet on baseball. In 2004, he changed his tune, saying he did so only when managing the Cincinnati Reds.

An Outside the Lines report earlier this year produced documentation from one of Rose's former associates that cataloged his bets in 1986, when he was still playing. Rose's attorney said at the time that his client wouldn't comment as he was in the process of reinstatement, and Rose has not commented on the matter since.

Sources told Quinn it was extremely unlikely all along, even before the Outside the Lines report, that Rose would be reinstated. MLB officials had no sense that Rose had "reconfigured" his life.

Rose passed Ty Cobb as career hits leader with No. 4,192 on Sept. 11, 1985, and he finished his career with 4,256 hits. Rose played for the Reds from 1963 to 1978 and 1984 to 1986, acting as both a player and a manager from 1984 to 1986 and continuing as just a manager until 1989.

He first applied for reinstatement in September 1997 and met with then-commissioner Bud Selig in November 2002, but Selig never ruled on Rose's application.

The continued punishment means Rose cannot be considered for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[RealSNR]

Is that why he mysteriously disappeared from the broadcasting coverage table on FS1?

[chiefzilla1501]

No issue with this. Anyone's who looked into what actually happened knows this wasn't as innocent as saying he bet on the Reds to win. He also chose not to bet on games he thought they would lose. He fucked with the integrity of the game.

[Spott]

Living in Vegas and spending 4-5 days a week in the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino is probably not the best way to convince MLB that you are over your gambling habits.

[BlackHelicopters]

Rose. Who has the energy anymore?

[WhawhaWhat]

This message from MLB brought to you by DraftKings.

[Lex Luthor]

Is that why he mysteriously disappeared from the broadcasting coverage table on FS1?

No. He had a prior commitment to attend an event. I think it was at a casino, but I'm not sure about that part.

[RealSNR]

No. He had a prior commitment to attend an event. I think it was at a casino, but I'm not sure about that part.

It was a Neil Diamond concert! Honestly!

[alpha_omega]

Well deserved.

[Just Passin' By]

Rose belongs in the HOF
Shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF
Bonds belongs in the HOF
Clemens belongs in the HOF

[Lprechaun]

First off, he deserves to be in as a player. Put up a plaque if you want to say as a manager he bet on baseball.
Second, the Baseball Hall Of Fame isnt part of the MLB, how the hell does the MLB get to decide who the hall chooses to put in there.
I dont think this is an asterisk thing even, he was one of the best if not the best player to ever play the game and its a travesty to fans and him to not be honored as such.

[Rain Man]

The most frustrating part for Pete Rose is that he's got a $25,000 bet with Vegas that he'll be reinstated.

[Bugeater]

I wish they would reinstate him just so he stops being a story every year.

[Eleazar]

For gamblers or roid users, it should be either never or posthumous election only

[Red Dawg]

So stupid. Players use steroids and cheat constantly doing so but lose no pay and can still play but Rose is out for life after a few bets? MLB being idiots.

[chiefzilla1501]

Rose belongs in the HOF
Shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF
Bonds belongs in the HOF
Clemens belongs in the HOF

As long as you acknowledge that the first 2 are, in fact, guilty of a serious baseball crime. Despite what the media sob stories will tell you, they were dfinitely guilty.

[Mr. Laz]

Commish only decides about allowing Rose to get a job in the MLB.

Rose shouldn't work in the MLB ever

The HoF should put Rose on the next ballot and let people vote.

2 separate issues

[tk13]

Is that why he mysteriously disappeared from the broadcasting coverage table on FS1?

No he left to go do an event in Las Vegas. Right or wrong, I think those are the kind of things that aren't helping his case. He left the World Series behind to go work Vegas. Just doesn't look great.

[TLO]

This message from MLB brought to you by DraftKings.

LMAO

[Oxford]

Rose belongs in the HOF
Shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF
Bonds belongs in the HOF
Clemens belongs in the HOF

Only if the BBWAA says he belongs. Only if the current members of the HOF sign off on the deal. And not before!

[NoGodsNoReids]

Who cares? Just let the guy in. He never bet against his team. He's one of the best hitters of all time. Just let him in. If it were steroids I'd be less sympathetic, but come on.

[Alex Smith 4Ever]

I don't know about Rose, but Barry Bonds absolutely deserves to be in the hall of fame. How can you have a hall of fame when the best player of all time isn't included? Just put an asterisk on his plaque that Barry was accused of using PEDs in a federal investigation but it was never proven and the case was dropped because of a lack of evidence.

[ChiliConCarnage]

That's fine with me. He knew the rules and broke them.

[LoneWolf]

Rose belongs in the HOF--Agree
Shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF--Disagree
Bonds belongs in the HOF--Disagree
Clemens belongs in the HOF--Disagree

Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame as a player. It has never been proven that he threw a game because of gambling. The others messed with the integrity of the game by either throwing games for financial gain or enhancing their performance through the use of PEDs.

[LoneWolf]

I don't know about Rose, but Barry Bonds absolutely deserves to be in the hall of fame. How can you have a hall of fame when the best player of all time isn't included? Just put an asterisk on his plaque that Barry was accused of using PEDs in a federal investigation but it was never proven and the case was dropped because of a lack of evidence.

Willie Mays is already in the Hall of Fame.

[Just Passin' By]

Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame as a player. It has never been proven that he threw a game because of gambling. The others messed with the integrity of the game by either throwing games for financial gain or enhancing their performance through the use of PEDs.

Clemens denies ever taking any PEDs, never failed a test, and was cleared in court. If an accusation is all it takes, you can take out just about every MLB candidate who's played since about 1990.

Willie Mays is already in the Hall of Fame.

While true, the poster mentioned the best player of all time, not Willie Mays. Fortunately for your argument, the best player of all time, Babe Ruth, is also in the Hall of Fame.

[LoneWolf]

Clemens denies ever taking any PEDs, never failed a test, and was cleared in court. If an accusation is all it takes, you can take out just about every MLB candidate who's played since about 1990.



While true, the poster mentioned the best player of all time, not Willie Mays. Fortunately for your argument, the best player of all time, Babe Ruth, is also in the Hall of Fame.

Well, accusations by several people and then the pesky steroids and DNA found on a syringe saved by his former trainer.

[chiefzilla1501]

Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame as a player. It has never been proven that he threw a game because of gambling. The others messed with the integrity of the game by either throwing games for financial gain or enhancing their performance through the use of PEDs.

It has been proven that Rose selectively gambled on games. That means that he sent a strong signal to bookies when he chose not to bet on games. There's a lot of pretty weighty implications here. You might send your worst relievers out in those games. In fact, there's a lot of evidence that Rose often bet games based on who was starting that night.

[Just Passin' By]

Well, accusations by several people and then the pesky steroids and DNA found on a syringe saved by his former trainer.

Again, he won in court and never failed a test, so all you've got is accusations. If you keep Clemens out, you've got to keep everyone out.

[NoGodsNoReids]

While true, the poster mentioned the best player of all time, not Willie Mays. Fortunately for your argument, the best player of all time, Babe Ruth, is also in the Hall of Fame.

Cracks me up when people think Ruth was the GOAT. He played in a time where you could be competitive as a player even if you were drunk on the diamond. Players from that time period where pitches never broke 88 MPH wouldn't even make it in the minors today.

Willie Mayes is absolutely the GOAT.

[NoGodsNoReids]

It has been proven that Rose selectively gambled on games. That means that he sent a strong signal to bookies when he chose not to bet on games. There's a lot of pretty weighty implications here. You might send your worst relievers out in those games. In fact, there's a lot of evidence that Rose often bet games based on who was starting that night.

But has it been proven he threw any games or bet against his team? No? Okay, then my feelings stay the same.

[gblowfish]

I don't know about Rose, but Barry Bonds absolutely deserves to be in the hall of fame. How can you have a hall of fame when the best player of all time isn't included? Just put an asterisk on his plaque that Barry was accused of using PEDs in a federal investigation but it was never proven and the case was dropped because of a lack of evidence.

I'd agree to this if they affix his plaque to the wall with hypodermic needles.

[Just Passin' By]

Cracks me up when people think Ruth was the GOAT. He played in a time where you could be competitive as a player even if you were drunk on the diamond. Players from that time period where pitches never broke 88 MPH wouldn't even make it in the minors today.

Willie Mayes is absolutely the GOAT.

Cracks me up when anyone claims Ruth isn't the GOAT, so we're on even footing here.

[Alex Smith 4Ever]

Barry Bonds is the GOAT. He dominated an era where everyone, even the pitchers, were pumped full of steroids and shattering records. There will never be a player like that again as long as there is drug testing in the sport.

[Garcia Bronco]

Baseball has been on drugs or alcohol since the 1930s. I always laugh when people talk about keeping people in or out based on steroid use. Understand...the game of baseball has been taking PEDs long before steroids.That means Hank Arron...Babe Ruth...Jackie Robinson and so on...they all took something.

[cosmo20002]

I don't know about Rose, but Barry Bonds absolutely deserves to be in the hall of fame. How can you have a hall of fame when the best player of all time isn't included? Just put an asterisk on his plaque that Barry was accused of using PEDs in a federal investigation but it was never proven and the case was dropped because of a lack of evidence.

He ain't close to being the best player of all time. EDIT: Misread, I was talking about Rose here.

Also, MLB doesn't decide who is in the HOF or on the ballot. The HOF runs the HOF.
Among their other rules for being elected, one rule they have is that if you're currently on MLB's banned list, you're ineligible for election. Technically, that is what is keeping him off the ballot. The HOF could put him on the ballot tomorrow if they wanted.

[KC_Connection]

Willie Mays is already in the Hall of Fame.
Willie Mays used PEDs. In your eyes, that should be enough to take him out of there, no?

[threebag]

he should be in

[eDave]

Living in Vegas and spending 4-5 days a week in the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino is probably not the best way to convince MLB that you are over your gambling habits.

They touched on this on ESPN. He's not showing that he is not a risk to shame the game again.

Keep him out. What a tragedy. Dude was good.

[KC_Connection]

He ain't close to being the best player of all time.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=

Couldn't be close, though. LMAO

[cosmo20002]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=

Couldn't be close, though. LMAO

Not exactly sure what your comment means, but he's tied with Jeff Bagwell for 35th in fWar. I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Bagwell is close to being the greatest of all time.

[luv]

So, retired players aren't allowed to gamble either?

[KC_Connection]

Not exactly sure what your comment means, but he's tied with Jeff Bagwell for 35th in fWar. I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Bagwell is close to being the greatest of all time.
You quoted a post claiming Barry Bonds was the GOAT, not Pete Rose.

[kcxiv]

So stupid. Players use steroids and cheat constantly doing so but lose no pay and can still play but Rose is out for life after a few bets? MLB being idiots.

Yep, this right there. Thats worse then betting on your team to win. Then they will say, well he denied it for so long. Well, Of course. I would have done the same! lol

I love me some baseball, but this life time ban bullshit is ****ing stupid. They sure wanted him at the fucking All Star game in Cincy this year though.

[KC_Connection]

So, retired players aren't allowed to gamble either?
It's probably not the best idea to continue gambling on baseball when you've been banned from baseball for gambling. Pete Rose dug his own grave here.

[BWillie]

I disagree in principal that Pete Rose should be barred from the HOF (I'm a big supporter of gambling and rights to do so) but after watching this bufoon in Postseason Coverage on Fox I'm not even bothered. He's such an arrogant assclown.

[cosmo20002]

You quoted a post claiming Barry Bonds was the GOAT, not Pete Rose.

Shit...yeah, I was thinking of Rose.
Yes, Bonds would be up there.

[Rain Man]

I disagree in principal that Pete Rose should be barred from the HOF (I'm a big supporter of gambling and rights to do so) but after watching this bufoon in Postseason Coverage on Fox I'm not even bothered. He's such an arrogant assclown.

If the athletes can gamble on their own games, then non-athletes would have nothing to gamble on.

[cosmo20002]

Yep, this right there. Thats worse then betting on your team to win. Then they will say, well he denied it for so long. Well, Of course. I would have done the same! lol

I love me some baseball, but this life time ban bullshit is ****ing stupid. They sure wanted him at the ****ing All Star game in Cincy this year though.

I would guess that MLB didn't really care if he was at the AS game. They have made a couple exceptions to Rose over the years in similar situations. I think it is mostly just to appease fans and avoid a big stink over when these things come up when teams honor their players.
I think the main thing is that they don't want him employed by MLB or MLB teams.

[cosmo20002]

I disagree in principal that Pete Rose should be barred from the HOF (I'm a big supporter of gambling and rights to do so) but after watching this bufoon in Postseason Coverage on Fox I'm not even bothered. He's such an arrogant assclown.

I actually kind of liked him on Fox and I've always thought he was a dick. I thought he was more of a goofball than arrogant and his "fights/arguments" with Frank Thomas were kind of funny. He also picked KC to beat Toronto in 6 and beat the Mets in 5!

https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/pete.png?w=650

[Deberg_1990]

I agree that Rose a huge prick, but Aren't there other known pricks in the Hall like Ty Cobb?

[NoGodsNoReids]

I agree that Rose a huge prick, but Aren't there other known pricks in the Hall like Ty Cobb?

Ty Cobb is allegedly the biggest of dicks.

[mlyonsd]

Good.

[Toby Waller]

Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth.

they were all self important thugs who got away with everything including assault.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yep, this right there. Thats worse then betting on your team to win. Then they will say, well he denied it for so long. Well, Of course. I would have done the same! lol

I love me some baseball, but this life time ban bullshit is ****ing stupid. They sure wanted him at the ****ing All Star game in Cincy this year though.

Choosing not to bet on certain games is the reason most people in the know have no sympathy. I actually have less sympathy for people who try to lose games than I do people who might cheat to gain a competitive edge.

[HonestChieffan]

Good. Pete is a taint.

[DaneMcCloud]

Rose belongs in the HOF
Shoeless Joe belongs in the HOF
Bonds belongs in the HOF
Clemens belongs in the HOF

Yep.

There's a BIG difference between a Hall of Fame player and a Hall of Fame "citizen".

Pete Rose is a Hall of Fame player, period. He should have been inducted as a player as soon as he was eligible.

The rest is the rest.

[cosmo20002]

Yep.

There's a BIG difference between a Hall of Fame player and a Hall of Fame "citizen".

Pete Rose is a Hall of Fame player, period. He should have been inducted as a player as soon as he was eligible.

The rest is the rest.

He's never been eligible.

[A Salt Weapon]

He's never been eligible.

Lol, funny response.

[A Salt Weapon]

But he should be in the HOF without a doubt.

[cosmo20002]

Lol, funny response.

Well, he hasn't.
The HOF has made the decision to make him ineligible, not MLB.

[New World Order]

Cosmo pissed.

[Lex Luthor]

Who cares? Just let the guy in. He never bet against his team. He's one of the best hitters of all time. Just let him in. If it were steroids I'd be less sympathetic, but come on.

No. This goes to the integrity of the game, and MLB is completely justified in banning him forever.

The part you're missing is that when a major league manager bets on games involving his team, it affects the integrity of the game even if he never bets against his team. Here's just one example: Let's say Rose bet $10,000 on his team to win Saturday's game. His closer gets a save on Thursday. Friday night's game is close, and Rose could easily decide not to use his closer on Friday because he wants to save him for the big money game on Saturday. He's not doing everything he can to win on Friday because he has a big bet on Saturday's game.

Plus, how the **** do you know he never bet against his team? Because HE says so? You're taking his word for it, even though he lied his ass off for nearly 30 years about the whole thing.

Rose's biggest problem is that he's an arrogant asshole who thinks the rules don't apply to him. Fuck him.

[New World Order]

The most frustrating part for Pete Rose is that he's got a $25,000 bet with Vegas that he'll be reinstated.


LMAO

[Lex Luthor]

Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame as a player. It has never been proven that he threw a game because of gambling. The others messed with the integrity of the game by either throwing games for financial gain or enhancing their performance through the use of PEDs.
Rose is not even close to being the best player of all time. Rose had great longevity. He was a singles hitter. He's the same player as Rod Carew and about 50 other guys who hit .300 with no power. The only difference is that Pete Rose lasted longer.

[Lex Luthor]

So, retired players aren't allowed to gamble either?
Not when they are actively managing an MLB team.

[luv]

Not when they are actively managing an MLB team.
I meant in general. They can't gamble when they are no longer active in baseball, playing or otherwise?

[Lex Luthor]

I meant in general. They can't gamble when they are no longer active in baseball, playing or otherwise?
I think it's probably not a big deal for most former players.

But when you've been given a lifetime ban for gambling and lying your ass off about it for 30 years, it's not a good look. The only reason he finally admitted it a few years ago was to sell more copies of his book.

[Red Dawg]

Does anyone really give a shit what Rose did 30 years ago? Let him in and stop acting baseball players are some elite group of nuns that do no wrong. It's stupid how the old farts writing about baseball treat the stupid HOF like only choir boys are in it.

[duncan_idaho]

No. This goes to the integrity of the game, and MLB is completely justified in banning him forever.



The part you're missing is that when a major league manager bets on games involving his team, it affects the integrity of the game even if he never bets against his team. Here's just one example: Let's say Rose bet $10,000 on his team to win Saturday's game. His closer gets a save on Thursday. Friday night's game is close, and Rose could easily decide not to use his closer on Friday because he wants to save him for the big money game on Saturday. He's not doing everything he can to win on Friday because he has a big bet on Saturday's game.



Plus, how the **** do you know he never bet against his team? Because HE says so? You're taking his word for it, even though he lied his ass off for nearly 30 years about the whole thing.



Rose's biggest problem is that he's an arrogant asshole who thinks the rules don't apply to him. Fuck him.


Agreed.

Pete Rose can fuck right off.

[A Salt Weapon]

Well, he hasn't.
The HOF has made the decision to make him ineligible, not MLB.

I know, I just found the way you quoted and replied funny. It was a compliment, I was actually pissed when I realized it was you I was laughing at. I fucking hate you as a person but you're still funny as shit sometimes.
Merry Christmas to you.

[fan4ever]

I think more than any major sport, baseball is about statistics...HR's, RBI's, batting averages, etc. PED's and the like make it so players like Bonds could extend their careers, thus enhancing their stats. It clouds the picture on which players were the greatest...and stats are really the only way you could compare the players of yester-year with today's players...faulty comparison or not.

[Mr. Laz]

Apparently Pete Rose lied again to the commish.

(paraphrase) Commish asked him if he was still betting on baseball and Rose said "No".

later in meeting he spoke up and said that he need to amend what he said and went on to say that he's not betting on baseball "illegally" but he was now betting legally.


:shake:

holy crap, Rose is an idiot ... he just can't stop.

[Rain Man]

Does anyone really give a shit what Rose did 30 years ago? Let him in and stop acting baseball players are some elite group of nuns that do no wrong. It's stupid how the old farts writing about baseball treat the stupid HOF like only choir boys are in it.

I would think that the policy is not so much about punishing Pete Rose at this point, and is more about keeping a bright line drawn to keep current and future players from crossing it.

[Bufkin]

Pete Rose is so incredibly overrated. He played 20+ years and racked up a shit ton of base hits to get the hit record. That's great and all, but to even mentioned his name in the "GOAT" discussion is pretty embarrassing.

[Mr. Laz]

Does anyone really give a shit what Rose did 30 years ago? Let him in and stop acting baseball players are some elite group of nuns that do no wrong. It's stupid how the old farts writing about baseball treat the stupid HOF like only choir boys are in it.
30 years ago?

Rose lied about still betting on baseball yesterday to the MLB Commissioner.

btw Commissioner didn't and doesn't rule on the HOF only being able to work in the MLB

[Rain Man]

Pete Rose is so incredibly overrated. He played 20+ years and racked up a shit ton of base hits to get the hit record. That's great and all, but to even mentioned his name in the "GOAT" discussion is pretty embarrassing.

A friend of mine who is a big baseball fan despises Rose. But he despises him for a funny reason.

Apparently any time Rose made the third out while in the field, he would just throw the ball down and head into the dugout, leaving some ballboy or ballgirl to run out and pick up the ball. It was mildly annoying when he was in the infield, but when he has playing outfield he would do it as well, making somebody run into the outfield to pick it up. My pal thought that was inexcusably rude.

[Red Dawg]

30 years ago?

Rose lied about still betting on baseball yesterday to the MLB Commissioner.

btw Commissioner didn't and doesn't rule on the HOF only being able to work in the MLB

That has nothing to do with the HOF. They just have to put him on the ballot and vote him in. MLB does not control who's on the ballot as they are separate entities. People think the MLB Commish not lifting his ban keeps him out of the HOF but it doesn't. The Commish made that clear in his statement.

[Red Dawg]

No. This goes to the integrity of the game, and MLB is completely justified in banning him forever.

The part you're missing is that when a major league manager bets on games involving his team, it affects the integrity of the game even if he never bets against his team. Here's just one example: Let's say Rose bet $10,000 on his team to win Saturday's game. His closer gets a save on Thursday. Friday night's game is close, and Rose could easily decide not to use his closer on Friday because he wants to save him for the big money game on Saturday. He's not doing everything he can to win on Friday because he has a big bet on Saturday's game.

Plus, how the **** do you know he never bet against his team? Because HE says so? You're taking his word for it, even though he lied his ass off for nearly 30 years about the whole thing.

Rose's biggest problem is that he's an arrogant asshole who thinks the rules don't apply to him. **** him.

Integrity? You must be joking. Steroid use never got anyone banned in any sport but somehow betting is worse? Those guys in baseball don't even lose any money and still go on with their careers like nothing ever happened so how the hell is what Rose did 30 plus years ago so unforgivable when those guys are cheating like hell? Makes no sense at all.

[DaneMcCloud]

Integrity? You must be joking. Steroid use never got anyone banned in any sport but somehow betting is worse? Those guys in baseball don't even lose any money and still go on with their careers like nothing ever happened so how the hell is what Rose did 30 plus years ago so unforgivable when those guys are cheating like hell? Makes no sense at all.

You don't make any sense.

Gambling on baseball has been illegal since the 1920's. There is a sign in every clubhouse stating that it is illegal. Gambling nearly destroyed the sport. Each commissioner has made the correct decision in upholding the ban.

Rose is a well known liar. He lied to each commissioner and lied to everyone that's ever questioned his gambling. Worst of all, he bet on baseball games, including those he managed.

For decades, Rose has lied and continues to lie to this day. He does not deserve to be reinstated by MLB and no writer will ever vote for him, period.

He's scum.

[chiefzilla1501]

Integrity? You must be joking. Steroid use never got anyone banned in any sport but somehow betting is worse? Those guys in baseball don't even lose any money and still go on with their careers like nothing ever happened so how the hell is what Rose did 30 plus years ago so unforgivable when those guys are cheating like hell? Makes no sense at all.

The difference to me is that cheating to win is basically overcompetitive people trying to find ways to win. Every sport has cheating small and big, so it feels a little excusable because the line can feel fuzzy. Do we get as worked up if they used ephedra vs steroids?

Cheating to lose is an absolute sports sin. I don't think rose cheated to lose. But I would guess he didn't always put his team in the best position to win in games he didn't bet on.

[KChiefs1]

I would think that the policy is not so much about punishing Pete Rose at this point, and is more about keeping a bright line drawn to keep current and future players from crossing it.


Do you think it's possible for gamblers now to influence players to throw a game?

[Rain Man]

Do you think it's possible for gamblers now to influence players to throw a game?

Gamblers or gambling?

I guess the answer is yes to both.

We saw an NBA ref changing games due to his gambling a few years back, and I remain shocked that it wasn't a bigger deal. I think it would be a massive hit to the integrity of any sport if the participants were gambling on outcomes.

As far as gamblers, I never thought about it, but I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been threats to athletes by gamblers. A guy like Tom Brady will have protection, but if someone shady threatens a dime back or a journeyman center, they can turn a game. I wonder if that's happened before.

[chiefzilla1501]

Gamblers or gambling?

I guess the answer is yes to both.

We saw an NBA ref changing games due to his gambling a few years back, and I remain shocked that it wasn't a bigger deal. I think it would be a massive hit to the integrity of any sport if the participants were gambling on outcomes.

As far as gamblers, I never thought about it, but I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been threats to athletes by gamblers. A guy like Tom Brady will have protection, but if someone shady threatens a dime back or a journeyman center, they can turn a game. I wonder if that's happened before.

Which is why there should be zero tolerance. Scary, in a world where the NFL is enabling gambling in ways we can't possibly monitor.

[Indian Chief]

Gamblers or gambling?

I guess the answer is yes to both.

We saw an NBA ref changing games due to his gambling a few years back, and I remain shocked that it wasn't a bigger deal. I think it would be a massive hit to the integrity of any sport if the participants were gambling on outcomes.

As far as gamblers, I never thought about it, but I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been threats to athletes by gamblers. A guy like Tom Brady will have protection, but if someone shady threatens a dime back or a journeyman center, they can turn a game. I wonder if that's happened before.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I will add that money is the driving factor in all of this. The players, even journeymen, make so much money that it is almost impossible to pay them off. To truly affect the outcome of a game, you have to get to a guy big enough to influence what happens. Those guys tend to make truckloads of money already. In addition, government, regulatory agencies, and the sports books themselves keep such an eagle eye on every move of the line that inconsistencies are easy to spot.

So is it impossible that it would happen now? No, but the ability to influence has been severely diminished over the years. As Rain Man said, you could threaten a player but the likelihood of that is slim.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

I dont think this is an asterisk thing even, he was one of the best if not the best player to ever play the game and its a travesty to fans and him to not be honored as such.

WTF???? You think Pete Rose might be the best baseball player of all time????

[Lex Luthor]

First off, he deserves to be in as a player. Put up a plaque if you want to say as a manager he bet on baseball.
Second, the Baseball Hall Of Fame isnt part of the MLB, how the hell does the MLB get to decide who the hall chooses to put in there.
I dont think this is an asterisk thing even, he was one of the best if not the best player to ever play the game and its a travesty to fans and him to not be honored as such.

You obviously never watched the great Reds teams of the 1970s. Rose wasn't even close to being the best player on his team. Johnny Bench was better. Joe Morgan was better. Tony Perez was arguably better. Pete Rose hit a lot of singles and hustled. That is not GOAT material.

[cosmo20002]

Integrity? You must be joking. Steroid use never got anyone banned in any sport but somehow betting is worse? Those guys in baseball don't even lose any money and still go on with their careers like nothing ever happened so how the hell is what Rose did 30 plus years ago so unforgivable when those guys are cheating like hell? Makes no sense at all.
Gambling on games you're involved in is worse than steroids. Maybe the only thing worse is just outright bribes to fix the game.

[Bufkin]

Gambling on games you're involved in is worse than steroids. Maybe the only thing worse is just outright bribes to fix the game.
I think fucking children is worse too. You forgot that Cosmo.

[Toby Waller]

Which is why there should be zero tolerance. Scary, in a world where the NFL is enabling gambling in ways we can't possibly monitor.

enabling it? it freaking promotes it at every turn.

lines here,odds there,fantasy this,pickem that.

[Toby Waller]

You obviously never watched the great Reds teams of the 1970s. Rose wasn't even close to being the best player on his team. Johnny Bench was better. Joe Morgan was better. Tony Perez was arguably better. Pete Rose hit a lot of singles and hustled. That is not GOAT material.

Pete Rose is a good tv name. Bench, Concepción is not.

[kccrow]

First off, he deserves to be in as a player. Put up a plaque if you want to say as a manager he bet on baseball.
Second, the Baseball Hall Of Fame isnt part of the MLB, how the hell does the MLB get to decide who the hall chooses to put in there.
I dont think this is an asterisk thing even, he was one of the best if not the best player to ever play the game and its a travesty to fans and him to not be honored as such.

This.

That's really all there is to it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Gambling on games you're involved in is worse than steroids. Maybe the only thing worse is just outright bribes to fix the game.

Yup. Now, I will say this. If Pete Rose gambled on the reds in a way where he was truly trying to win every single game, I'd feel a little more neutral on this. But I still stick to a zero tolerance rule because there shouldn't be any shadow of a doubt. But he didn't. He bet selectively. One that implies there were games he was trying less hard to win. Two, it basically gave insider trading to bookies to bet on the reds. They knew Pete would throw in his best lineup, starters, would even use his best bullpen on that day.

What's worse? There are some that speculate that he killed careers. Mario Soto is an interesting example. Rose might have killed Sotos career. Brilliant pitcher that rose continually pitched on three days rest and then his arm was never the same. Hmmm... Could it be that Sotos bizarre usage might have been due to rose's gambling addiction?

[Lex Luthor]

This.

That's really all there is to it.

All you have proven is that you know nothing about baseball.

[OctoberFart]

Rose gambled as a player so he should be banned.

[Rain Man]

Yup. Now, I will say this. If Pete Rose gambled on the reds in a way where he was truly trying to win every single game, I'd feel a little more neutral on this. But I still stick to a zero tolerance rule because there shouldn't be any shadow of a doubt. But he didn't. He bet selectively. One that implies there were games he was trying less hard to win. Two, it basically gave insider trading to bookies to bet on the reds. They knew Pete would throw in his best lineup, starters, would even use his best bullpen on that day.

What's worse? There are some that speculate that he killed careers. Mario Soto is an interesting example. Rose might have killed Sotos career. Brilliant pitcher that rose continually pitched on three days rest and then his arm was never the same. Hmmm... Could it be that Sotos bizarre usage might have been due to rose's gambling addiction?

Good point on the insider trading thing with bookies. I hadn't thought about that.

The thing with Rose is that he was betting on events that he could partially control. As mentioned earlier in the thread, he could make decisions that weren't in the long-term best interest of the team to cover his bets in the short term. Does anyone think that wouldn't enter his mind in a close game?

[BWillie]

Apparently Pete Rose lied again to the commish.

(paraphrase) Commish asked him if he was still betting on baseball and Rose said "No".

later in meeting he spoke up and said that he need to amend what he said and went on to say that he's not betting on baseball "illegally" but he was now betting legally.


:shake:

holy crap, Rose is an idiot ... he just can't stop.

Pete Rose betting on baseball, gambling on anything AFTER his career as a player and manager shouldn't matter AT ALL. He is free to do whatever he wants at that point. Of course he's going to lie to the commish if he still gambles, because he knew what they would say.

[chiefzilla1501]

Good point on the insider trading thing with bookies. I hadn't thought about that.

The thing with Rose is that he was betting on events that he could partially control. As mentioned earlier in the thread, he could make decisions that weren't in the long-term best interest of the team to cover his bets in the short term. Does anyone think that wouldn't enter his mind in a close game?

What's scariest to me is how often he pitched pitchers on three day rest. It wasn't just Soto. So he was blowing his pitchers ' arms out. Seems just like dumb management. But it's absolutely possible he was putting his players at risk to satisfy bets. Soto threw on three days rest in half of his starts in 1985. His career basically went downhill the next year. Which is ironic, since rose showed a pattern of NOT betting on Soto after that year. He never bet on Soto or Tim gullivson when they started.

[Hydrae]

What's scariest to me is how often he pitched pitchers on three day rest. It wasn't just Soto. So he was blowing his pitchers ' arms out. Seems just like dumb management. But it's absolutely possible he was putting his players at risk to satisfy bets. Soto threw on three days rest in half of his starts in 1985. His career basically went downhill the next year. Which is ironic, since rose showed a pattern of NOT betting on Soto after that year. He never bet on Soto or Tim gullivson when they started.

Hang on. How do you know he never bet on a game that Soto started? I thought there was no way to know which games he bet on. I mean, I keep reading that right here in this thread.

Personally, I think he deserves to be in the HOF for his play on the field. Put up a large sign explaining why what he did was bad, etc. But he does hold an all-time record (no matter how some want to downplay that) and was actually quite an inspiration to young kids during his playing years simply due to his Charlie Hustle personality that showed those kids to give their all, every time.

Just my humble opinion.

[chiefzilla1501]

Hang on. How do you know he never bet on a game that Soto started? I thought there was no way to know which games he bet on. I mean, I keep reading that right here in this thread.

Personally, I think he deserves to be in the HOF for his play on the field. Put up a large sign explaining why what he did was bad, etc. But he does hold an all-time record (no matter how some want to downplay that) and was actually quite an inspiration to young kids during his playing years simply due to his Charlie Hustle personality that showed those kids to give their all, every time.

Just my humble opinion.

They have a book of Pete rose's bets that confirm what games he bet on. It confirms that he never bet on the reds to lose. But again, very shady that there were games where he didn't bet anything.

I really don't care about the morality aspect. I think there are much bigger reasons for that to justify a zero tolerance policy on betting on games you play in.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

WTF???? You think Pete Rose might be the best baseball player of all time????

Am I the only one who is astonished by this? Rose does not even sniff the conversation of best players of all time. I don't even know if he's in the top 100 players of all time.

[Brock]

Am I the only one who is astonished by this? Rose does not even sniff the conversation of best players of all time. I don't even know if he's in the top 100 players of all time.

Sporting news has him at 25, and he was listed on the all century team.

[lewdog]

Am I the only one who is astonished by this? Rose does not even sniff the conversation of best players of all time. I don't even know if he's in the top 100 players of all time.

Not in the top 100?

What?!

[Lex Luthor]

Pete Rose betting on baseball, gambling on anything AFTER his career as a player and manager shouldn't matter AT ALL. He is free to do whatever he wants at that point. Of course he's going to lie to the commish if he still gambles, because he knew what they would say.
That's your opinion.

My opinion is that he lied his ass off for 30 years, and he continues to lie his ass off whenever he thinks it might benefit him. You don't suspend a guy for that, but you can damn well consider it when he begs you to rescind his LIFETIME ban.

[kccrow]

All you have proven is that you know nothing about baseball.

So, Pete Rose is not, legitimately, one of the greatest players to ever play the game, if not the best?

I don't dismiss that Rose bet on baseball. However, I do not believe, and no evidence has ever been produced to show, he bet against the Reds. I know what baseball's concocted rules are. You're not supposed to bet on baseball games that you are involved in. To me, that's bullshit. And yes, I do believe there is a difference between betting on baseball, betting on your own team, and betting against your team. And really, what indication is there to show Pete likely bet against his team? His 1985 All-Star appearance? The fact he helped lift the Reds out of the shitter following the collapse of the Big Red Machine?

I know what the Baseball Writers rules are an what the Veteran's Committee's rules are. In fact, I know too that they enacted these rules as Rose became eligible for the Hall under the watch of each of those groups.

Pete Rose may have bet on baseball, but he's one of the best players the game has ever seen and likely ever will see. It's a fucking shame that people are so hung up on betting, in a world where cheating in sports is now the norm, that they can't see how great he actually was.

Oh, and by the way, you should read his book where he "lies his ass off."

[DaneMcCloud]

This.

That's really all there is to it.

LMAO

No, not even close.

BTW, you have some of the worst takes I've ever seen, regardless of the sport.

Just shut the fuck up already.

[chiefzilla1501]

So, Pete Rose is not, legitimately, one of the greatest players to ever play the game, if not the best?

I don't dismiss that Rose bet on baseball. However, I do not believe, and no evidence has ever been produced to show, he bet against the Reds. I know what baseball's concocted rules are. You're not supposed to bet on baseball games that you are involved in. To me, that's bullshit. And yes, I do believe there is a difference between betting on baseball, betting on your own team, and betting against your team. And really, what indication is there to show Pete likely bet against his team? His 1985 All-Star appearance? The fact he helped lift the Reds out of the shitter following the collapse of the Big Red Machine?

I know what the Baseball Writers rules are an what the Veteran's Committee's rules are. In fact, I know too that they enacted these rules as Rose became eligible for the Hall under the watch of each of those groups.

Pete Rose may have bet on baseball, but he's one of the best players the game has ever seen and likely ever will see. It's a ****ing shame that people are so hung up on betting, in a world where cheating in sports is now the norm, that they can't see how great he actually was.

Oh, and by the way, you should read his book where he "lies his ass off."

Got a lot of hits because he played a million years. Average defense. Average base stealer. Below average power. But he's #1? Mays had the same exact average, stole twice as many bases, and hit over 400 HRs more than Rose. Good grief. Borderline top 25 is about right. But in the conversation for GOAT? Huh?

And again, he didn't bet on every game. Which means there were many games he didn't bet to win. The idea that he's innocent because he only bet to win is a load of horseshit.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Got a lot of hits because he played a million years. Average defense. Average base stealer. Below average power. But he's #1?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this. Sure, he got a ton of hits. But was he really an all-time great? His 162-game averages, per Baseball Reference:

.303 AVG
.375 OBP
.409 SLG
.784 OPS
7 HR
60 RBI
9 SB

Those are good numbers. Far from great. Do we really think a guy with a .784 OPS is one of the greatest players ever?

[Rain Man]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this. Sure, he got a ton of hits. But was he really an all-time great? His 162-game averages, per Baseball Reference:

.303 AVG
.375 OBP
.409 SLG
.784 OPS
7 HR
60 RBI
9 SB

Those are good numbers. Far from great. Do we really think a guy with a .784 OPS is one of the greatest players ever?

I could probably do that if I watched my diet.

[cosmo20002]

I think ****ing children is worse too. You forgot that Cosmo.

Well, I was limiting my examples to things directly related to the sport.
But, if a player is caught doing that during a game, I would recalibrate my rankings. Or even not during a game.

[Toby Waller]

http://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/rose.gif?w=1000

[Toby Waller]

http://www.dealerknows.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/pete-slides.gif

[lewdog]

No way he's anywhere close to number 1. He's in the top 100 though, somewhere between 50-100 I would say. But yes, he was blessed with a long career but 4k+ hits is pretty awesome, long career or not.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Players with higher OPS in their Royals careers than Pete Rose had with any one team:

Danny Tartabull
Mike Sweeney
George Brett
Carlos Beltran
Willie Aikens
Raul Ibanez
John Mayberry
Jermaine Dye
Hal McRae
Darrell Porter
Billy Butler
Wally Joyner
(tie) Jose Offerman

[Lex Luthor]

Players with higher OPS in their Royals careers than Pete Rose had with any one team:

Danny Tartabull
Mike Sweeney
George Brett
Carlos Beltran
Willie Aikens
Raul Ibanez
John Mayberry
Jermaine Dye
Hal McRae
Darrell Porter
Billy Butler
Wally Joyner
(tie) Jose Offerman

Further evidence that kccrow needs to find some other player to idolize. Claiming that Pete Rose is anywhere close to being the greatest of all-time is a fucking joke.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

Sure, Pete Rose had a million hits cause he played a million games. But let's look at some more measurable averaged statistics and see how he ranks.

Batting average: 172nd all time
On base percentage: 212th all time
OPS+: 416th all time
OPS: 566th all time
Slugging percentage: 870th all time

Is it really that asinine to claim that he's not in the top 100 players of all time?

[kccrow]

Got a lot of hits because he played a million years. Average defense. Average base stealer. Below average power. But he's #1? Mays had the same exact average, stole twice as many bases, and hit over 400 HRs more than Rose. Good grief. Borderline top 25 is about right. But in the conversation for GOAT? Huh?

And again, he didn't bet on every game. Which means there were many games he didn't bet to win. The idea that he's innocent because he only bet to win is a load of horseshit.

Further evidence that kccrow needs to find some other player to idolize. Claiming that Pete Rose is anywhere close to being the greatest of all-time is a fucking joke.

Sure, Pete Rose had a million hits cause he played a million games. But let's look at some more measurable averaged statistics and see how he ranks.

Batting average: 172nd all time
On base percentage: 212th all time
OPS+: 416th all time
OPS: 566th all time
Slugging percentage: 870th all time

Is it really that asinine to claim that he's not in the top 100 players of all time?

I can get on board with all of this. I don't idolize Pete Rose, but he played at a consistently good to high level for a good portion of his career. I know I over-spoke with the greatest of all time comment, but that doesn't mean he's not a top-100 all-time player.

He had a consistently solid WAR, and ranks 65th all-time on that list. He played at an All-Star level in WAR 1/3 of his career and above average for most of it. A big problem with Rose's career is he should have retired 8 years sooner than he did. He should have, at minimum, retired after the 1982 season, and had he done so there wouldn't be an issue with him being in the HOF. You could see the wheels falling off at that time. But you cannot overlook his stretch from 1965-1981. He led the league in hits 5 times, finished 2nd another 5 times, and never finished worse than 9th. He led the league in doubles 5 times, and finished in the top three 11 times. He had two Gold Gloves.

There's more to going to the HOF than just hitting the baseball. Had he been left to the OF for his career rather than getting moved around everywhere, his fielding stats would likely be close to some of the best of all-time. He was great in the LF, but only spent about 1/3 of his career there because Sparky Anderson. There's no doubt he probably would have had more Gold Gloves had he stayed there.

He's very comparable to a guy like Derek Jeter. Very solid player in most every category, very durable, and had longevity, but was never a big-time slugger... just Mr. Reliable. That's probably the fairest comparison I can make, statistically and otherwise. SI actually wrote an interesting article on that comparison several years ago, probably damn near a decade ago by now.

I will say to be careful using career average stats when comparing players and dig a little deeper. Willie Mays has a very strong argument as GOAT, but his career batting average of .302 is ranked 188th and his career OBP of .384 is ranked 142nd. We can all bend stats to fit our prerogative. Take OPS, for example. OPS is a singular statistic meant to measure power. Taken with all other batting stats, it can be meaningful. On its own, what can you really say about OPS? Take the following example and tell me who is the better hitter in your mind?

1B---2B---3B---HR---HITS----AB----BA----OPS
20---10---04---01----35----100---0.350--0.560
15---03---01---08----27----100---0.270--0.560

Had you only seen the OPS number, you'd say they are equal. I bet most of you didn't say, "well I'd take either one." I bet you had a favorite because of other statistics. Statistics can be misleading. Four players share the MLB record for OPS with 1 career at bat. Take it all into context.

The fact remains that Pete Rose is a HOF worthy baseball player. The only deciding factor for anyone is whether you think his betting should prohibit him from getting in or not. If you agree with him being prohibited for betting, then no amount of statistical evidence or otherwise will convince you. The HOF has taken that exact stance; it doesn't matter what Pete did on the field because he bet on baseball.

[kccrow]

LMAO

No, not even close.

BTW, you have some of the worst takes I've ever seen, regardless of the sport.

Just shut the fuck up already.

Worthless contributors like yourself should be banned permanently. The only time you ever have anything to say is when you are trying to sound like an internet tough guy. You, much like Clay and several others around here, provide little if anything to any conversation besides smart-ass comments and inane drivel. You really should join the likes of Inmen et al.

I've never seen you post a singular intellectual comment in all the years I've been here. You provide no contradictory evidence to validly support any claim you make. I'm a reasonable person that would normally take contradictory perspectives into account and adjust my own when I'm wrong. You, however, are incapable of doing such a thing. You don't have the intellect to contribute in a meaningful way to any conversation, instead waiting on others to do it for you.

You're trash that needs to be taken out.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

I will say to be careful using career average stats when comparing players and dig a little deeper. Willie Mays has a very strong argument as GOAT, but his career batting average of .302 is ranked 188th and his career OBP of .384 is ranked 142nd. We can all bend stats to fit our prerogative. Take OPS, for example. OPS is a singular statistic meant to measure power. Taken with all other batting stats, it can be meaningful.


Well, no. It's on-base PLUS slugging. As in, two things combined. So it's not a singular statistic.

Even if it was, though, I think a hitter would need to have some power to be considered amongst the all-time great players. Do we really think a guy who has hundreds of guys ahead of him in AVG, OBP, OPS, and SLG is in the discussion for the greatest ever just cause he played for 40 years and got a bunch of singles?

Let's compare Rose with some guys who would actually be reasonable candidates in that discussion:

Rose:
AVG: 172nd all time
OBP: 212th all time
OPS+: 416th all time
OPS: 566th all time
SLG: 870th all time

Ruth:
AVG: 9th all time
OBP: 2nd all time
OPS+: 1st all time
OPS: 1st all time
SLG: 1st all time

Williams:
AVG: 8th all time
OBP: 1st all time
OPS+: 2nd all time
OPS: 2nd all time
SLG: 2nd all time

Bonds:
AVG: 227th all time
OBP: 6th all time
OPS+: 3rd all time
OPS: 4th all time
SLG: 5th all time

Do you see the difference?

[chiefzilla1501]

I can get on board with all of this. I don't idolize Pete Rose, but he played at a consistently good to high level for a good portion of his career. I know I over-spoke with the greatest of all time comment, but that doesn't mean he's not a top-100 all-time player.

He had a consistently solid WAR, and ranks 65th all-time on that list. He played at an All-Star level in WAR 1/3 of his career and above average for most of it. A big problem with Rose's career is he should have retired 8 years sooner than he did. He should have, at minimum, retired after the 1982 season, and had he done so there wouldn't be an issue with him being in the HOF. You could see the wheels falling off at that time. But you cannot overlook his stretch from 1965-1981. He led the league in hits 5 times, finished 2nd another 5 times, and never finished worse than 9th. He led the league in doubles 5 times, and finished in the top three 11 times. He had two Gold Gloves.

There's more to going to the HOF than just hitting the baseball. Had he been left to the OF for his career rather than getting moved around everywhere, his fielding stats would likely be close to some of the best of all-time. He was great in the LF, but only spent about 1/3 of his career there because Sparky Anderson. There's no doubt he probably would have had more Gold Gloves had he stayed there.

He's very comparable to a guy like Derek Jeter. Very solid player in most every category, very durable, and had longevity, but was never a big-time slugger... just Mr. Reliable. That's probably the fairest comparison I can make, statistically and otherwise. SI actually wrote an interesting article on that comparison several years ago, probably damn near a decade ago by now.

I will say to be careful using career average stats when comparing players and dig a little deeper. Willie Mays has a very strong argument as GOAT, but his career batting average of .302 is ranked 188th and his career OBP of .384 is ranked 142nd. We can all bend stats to fit our prerogative. Take OPS, for example. OPS is a singular statistic meant to measure power. Taken with all other batting stats, it can be meaningful. On its own, what can you really say about OPS? Take the following example and tell me who is the better hitter in your mind?

1B---2B---3B---HR---HITS----AB----BA----OPS
20---10---04---01----35----100---0.350--0.560
15---03---01---08----27----100---0.270--0.560

Had you only seen the OPS number, you'd say they are equal. I bet most of you didn't say, "well I'd take either one." I bet you had a favorite because of other statistics. Statistics can be misleading. Four players share the MLB record for OPS with 1 career at bat. Take it all into context.

The fact remains that Pete Rose is a HOF worthy baseball player. The only deciding factor for anyone is whether you think his betting should prohibit him from getting in or not. If you agree with him being prohibited for betting, then no amount of statistical evidence or otherwise will convince you. The HOF has taken that exact stance; it doesn't matter what Pete did on the field because he bet on baseball.

As long as you admit the overrating this is more rational.

I haven't considered who's in my top 25 but I'd imagine he's borderline there assuming we are taking steroids into account. Jeter is a great comparison because Jeter probably belongs just ahead of rose. And I wouldn't consider Jeter to be even close to the top.

[Lex Luthor]

A big problem with Rose's career is he should have retired 8 years sooner than he did. He should have, at minimum, retired after the 1982 season, and had he done so there wouldn't be an issue with him being in the HOF.

I'd agree with that. He would have had 3,869 hits with a .308 batting average, and he wouldn't have had the taint of gambling.

I don't think this would have made him a top 100 player because of all of the reasons already discussed in this thread, but he would have been an easy Hall of Famer.

[kccrow]

Well, no. It's on-base PLUS slugging. As in, two things combined. So it's not a singular statistic.

Even if it was, though, I think a hitter would need to have some power to be considered amongst the all-time great players. Do we really think a guy who has hundreds of guys ahead of him in AVG, OBP, OPS, and SLG is in the discussion for the greatest ever just cause he played for 40 years and got a bunch of singles?

Let's compare Rose with some guys who would actually be reasonable candidates in that discussion:

Rose:
AVG: 172nd all time
OBP: 212th all time
OPS+: 416th all time
OPS: 566th all time
SLG: 870th all time

Ruth:
AVG: 9th all time
OBP: 2nd all time
OPS+: 1st all time
OPS: 1st all time
SLG: 1st all time

Williams:
AVG: 8th all time
OBP: 1st all time
OPS+: 2nd all time
OPS: 2nd all time
SLG: 2nd all time

Bonds:
AVG: 227th all time
OBP: 6th all time
OPS+: 3rd all time
OPS: 4th all time
SLG: 5th all time

Do you see the difference?

I meant to say SLG, not OPS, and based my entire point on it and also calculated SLG. Oops, shit happens.

Yes, I see the difference. Except for Bonds, of course. If Ruth is a cheater then Bonds is also most definitely a cheater.

Point stands that I did retract my statement made in overreaction and stated him as a top 100 player. Even though there are statistics to argue whatever you want, he was a very good player in his prime. Rose will forever be tainted by his final years - years of betting to go along with below average play. I have a question for more players than just Rose and wonder your opinion. Do you fault a player for playing too long and declining, or do you recognize how good he was for most of his career? An example would be Ken Griffey Jr, lets say, but I think he has the resume to be in the Hall anyhow.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

I meant to say SLG, not OPS, and based my entire point on it and also calculated SLG. Oops, shit happens.

Yes, I see the difference. Except for Bonds, of course. If Ruth is a cheater then Bonds is also most definitely a cheater.

Point stands that I did retract my statement made in overreaction and stated him as a top 100 player. Even though there are statistics to argue whatever you want, he was a very good player in his prime. Rose will forever be tainted by his final years - years of betting to go along with below average play. I have a question for more players than just Rose and wonder your opinion. Do you fault a player for playing too long and declining, or do you recognize how good he was for most of his career? An example would be Ken Griffey Jr, lets say, but I think he has the resume to be in the Hall anyhow.

I don't fault him for playing too long, but it did two things:

1) Allowed him to break the hits record and amass some huge career numbers in multiple counting categories

while at the same time

2) Making his averages (AVG, OBP, OPS, etc.) lower.

He was a very good player, of course, but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the true greats.

[chiefzilla1501]

I meant to say SLG, not OPS, and based my entire point on it and also calculated SLG. Oops, shit happens.

Yes, I see the difference. Except for Bonds, of course. If Ruth is a cheater then Bonds is also most definitely a cheater.

Point stands that I did retract my statement made in overreaction and stated him as a top 100 player. Even though there are statistics to argue whatever you want, he was a very good player in his prime. Rose will forever be tainted by his final years - years of betting to go along with below average play. I have a question for more players than just Rose and wonder your opinion. Do you fault a player for playing too long and declining, or do you recognize how good he was for most of his career? An example would be Ken Griffey Jr, lets say, but I think he has the resume to be in the Hall anyhow.

To some degree, yes. Arguably Griffey in his early years was making a case for GOAT. Pete Rose was a good player for his generation but not comparable to the greats even in his peak. So that's the big difference there.

Pete without gambling is a clear first ballot HOF'er.