View Full Version : Chiefs Pre A-22 Re-Watch Thoughts
Sorter
01-17-2016, 08:49 PM
* The Chiefs got absolutely cunt-punted by "d-slant" (or dragon for you WC nazis) throughout this game, whether they were throwing it hot or as called. What's fucking crazy is that the Chiefs didn't get raped on most of the other WCO concepts (again, this is from memory and before I've re-watched it).
* Fucking Edelman is a freak. Don't really have anything else to say. The Gaines matchup might have been interesting but you're needing a prime A. Winfield to lock that fuck down (IMO).
*I won't know this until I re-watch but I didn't see much of the man/double concepts (slice/fist/thumbs) Ryan/Williams are known for. I did see 'thumbs" at one point with Branch (IIRC) walked out on an "X" (can't remember if it was Gronk/Edelman). I'll have to re-watch.
Like most have bitched about, this was a winnable game until Knile Davis showed up. The biggest kick in the nuts for that has to be Ware (if he was told he couldn't go and felt he could, he's going to feel responsible. If he felt he couldn't and didn't, he'll still feel responsible. That's just the way humans work).
Can't really blame Alex Smith before re-watching but the first half stats aren't hopeful. Disappointed the Chiefs didn't use more end-around/jet-sweep concepts coupled with inside zone like they did last year.
Rasputin
01-17-2016, 09:06 PM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
Sorter
01-17-2016, 09:13 PM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
As much as I bitch about Alex, I personally do not give fuck about him throwing high in the endzone inside the hashes. If that's picked, you're likely completely fucked.
Again, I didn't think Alex played poorly on my first watch. That fucker got put in some shitty situations and did quite a bit.
Buehler445
01-17-2016, 09:17 PM
* The Chiefs got absolutely cunt-punted by "d-slant" (or dragon for you WC nazis) throughout this game, whether they were throwing it hot or as called. What's fucking crazy is that the Chiefs didn't get raped on most of the other WCO concepts (again, this is from memory and before I've re-watched it).
* Fucking Edelman is a freak. Don't really have anything else to say. The Gaines matchup might have been interesting but you're needing a prime A. Winfield to lock that fuck down (IMO).
*I won't know this until I re-watch but I didn't see much of the man/double concepts (slice/fist/thumbs) Ryan/Williams are known for. I did see 'thumbs" at one point with Branch (IIRC) walked out on an "X" (can't remember if it was Gronk/Edelman). I'll have to re-watch.
Like most have bitched about, this was a winnable game until Knile Davis showed up. The biggest kick in the nuts for that has to be Ware (if he was told he couldn't go and felt he could, he's going to feel responsible. If he felt he couldn't and didn't, he'll still feel responsible. That's just the way humans work).
Can't really blame Alex Smith before re-watching but the first half stats aren't hopeful. Disappointed the Chiefs didn't use more end-around/jet-sweep concepts coupled with inside zone like they did last year.
I'd be interested in your analysis. Thanks. Alex isn't without blame, but he's low on the list.
Frustrating.
jspchief
01-17-2016, 09:18 PM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
Patriots get Gronk in single coverage on the edge of the EZ, Chiefs get Kelce surrounded by 4 defenders in the middle of the EZ.
That sums up the difference in coaching.
Sorter
01-17-2016, 09:22 PM
I'd be interested in your analysis. Thanks. Alex isn't without blame, but he's low on the list.
Frustrating.
Do you remember when the Pats first lined up Gronk as the X from the left hash inside the Chiefs 30 and had him run a hitch?
The optimist side said "Nice job Berry, you handled Gronk on your own".
The fucking pessimist side said "Well, that reaction was interesting. Bet they fuck us on that later."
Buehler445
01-17-2016, 09:23 PM
Do you remember when the Pats first lined up Gronk as the X from the left hash inside the Chiefs 30 and had him run a hitch?
The optimist side said "Nice job Berry, you handled Gronk on your own".
The fucking pessimist side said "Well, that reaction was interesting. Bet they fuck us on that later."
ROFL Yep.
redfan
01-17-2016, 09:24 PM
DAvis killed the game for the CHiefs.
Sorter
01-17-2016, 09:30 PM
ROFL Yep.
What's really fucking irritating about it is that the Chiefs have a similar player in Kelce (and Harris) and can similarly fuck with teams (whether that's through the original alignment, motion out of the backfield or across the formation.
I've hyped on it before but NE and Arizona are the best teams in the NFL at using motion and alignments to dick teams over and over.
It blows my mind that I can likely pull A22 from the past 2 years and get maybe 30 plays out of an entire fucking season where Kelce is used like that.
Buehler445
01-17-2016, 09:34 PM
What's really fucking irritating about it is that the Chiefs have a similar player in Kelce (and Harris) and can similarly fuck with teams (whether that's through the original alignment, motion out of the backfield or across the formation.
I've hyped on it before but NE and Arizona are the best teams in the NFL at using motion and alignments to dick teams over and over.
It blows my mind that I can likely pull A22 from the past 2 years and get maybe 30 plays out of an entire fucking season where Kelce is used like that.
But we have the vaunted triple TE formation!
Mr. Laz
01-17-2016, 09:37 PM
I was screaming Edelman to anyone that would listen before the game.
Sutton's plan was to play normal defense and just lock Ron Parker on Edelman
a gawd dam safety on the patriots best weapon
when that didn't work Sutton's adjustment was switching to Branch, another safety.
:cuss:
Sutton is a douche
DaneMcCloud
01-17-2016, 09:39 PM
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
Shut the fuck up. You're just an annoying fucktard that likes to bitch about everything.
While I'm extremely unhappy with the results yesterday, this Chiefs team won 11 straight games and pulled themselves out of what was likely a 5-11 season at best.
Dorsey's signings revealed a lot of depth on this roster, especially at RB. Sorenson held his own and the drafting of rookies Peters, Morse, Conley and even DJ Alexander and Ramik Wilson paid dividends, not to mention the signings of free agents Spencer Ware, Charcandrick West and others.
This team will continue to ascend AND compete for the conference championship in 2016 while your boyfriend Geno Smith fights to make a roster.
DaneMcCloud
01-17-2016, 09:41 PM
I was screaming Edelman to anyone that would listen before the game.
Sutton is a douche
Yeah, he should have put either Fleming or Cooper on Edelman.
:rolleyes:
stevieray
01-17-2016, 09:52 PM
pfftt..
Edleman can't play, he's white.
/CP
RunKC
01-17-2016, 10:00 PM
I think a big part of us ditching the jet sweep was bc of injuries. Maclin, DAT and Wilson were either out or had nagging injuries
Mr. Laz
01-17-2016, 10:00 PM
Yeah, he should have put either Fleming or Cooper on Edelman.
:rolleyes:
He had no idea what to do but play his normal defense with someone chasing Edelman around.
1. if his scheme options are that limited then HE IS LIMITED as a coach
2. if he didn't have such a hard-on for safeties he would have had more cover options with cornerbacks.
roll your eyes at someone else homerboy
Geez, you've gone from hardcore bitchmeister to hardcore homer ... evidently you have nothing in-between. Can't discuss anything, not open to anything.
Does this character issue occur everywhere in your life or just football?
Sorter
01-17-2016, 10:10 PM
I think a big part of us ditching the jet sweep was bc of injuries. Maclin, DAT and Wilson were either out or had nagging injuries
Could likely get a few similar results with Hammond.
DaneMcCloud
01-17-2016, 10:14 PM
He had no idea what to do but play his normal defense with someone chasing Edelman around.
1. if his scheme options are that limited then HE IS LIMITED as a coach
2. if he didn't have such a hard-on for safeties he would have had more comkver options with cornerbacks.
roll your eyes at someone else homerboy
Geez, you've gone from hardcore bitchmeister to hardcore homer ... evidently you have nothing in-between. Can't discuss anything, not open to anything.
Does this character issue occur everywhere in your life or just football?
You've hated Sutton since Game One 2013. You've repeatedly stated it so many times that I can't even count.
Yet most people will agree that the defense is why the Chiefs won 12 games this year, despite losing Hali and Houston, why they won 9 games last year, despite losing Eric Berry and 11 games in 2013, despite losing Houston and Hali.
But yeah, it's all Sutton's fault. He can't adapt. He can't coach.
:rolleyes:
Chief Northman
01-17-2016, 10:16 PM
I pretty much agree with all of Sorter's observations in this thread. Knowing that Maclin was pretty much useless, you would think they would be more creative with at least trying to free up Travis Kelce. The looks remained the same with so many bunch formations. Why not flank Kelce out as a wide receiver, especially around the goal line or in short yardage situations? For the sake of your run/pass balance I thought we would see jet sweep, but Wilson's hamstring injury probably took that out of the plan.
On the defensive side of the ball one thing I think that may have been underrated is that Derrick Johnson was a non-factor. Think of where Johnson makes his most impact plays: usually in the run game and in short yardage. The Patriots were always getting healthy yardage on first down. With Derrick Johnson always dropping in coverage,you are essentially getting him to do what he does worst. Production on first and second down meant Brady was worry free on third down in regards to pass rush.
Chiefnj2
01-17-2016, 11:01 PM
Edelman had a negative PFF grade. You must have watched a different game.
Yes, I'm being facetious.
Shawny2X4
01-17-2016, 11:10 PM
Edelman had a negative PFF grade. You must have watched a different game.
Yes, I'm being facetious.
Are you serious?! I've heard that site is up-and-down, but that does it. How can you take anything from them seriously? Edelman shredded us all night and completely changed the dynamic of New England's offense.
Shawny2X4
01-17-2016, 11:12 PM
* ****ing Edelman is a freak. Don't really have anything else to say. The Gaines matchup might have been interesting but you're needing a prime A. Winfield to lock that **** down (IMO).
*I won't know this until I re-watch but I didn't see much of the man/double concepts (slice/fist/thumbs) Ryan/Williams are known for. I did see 'thumbs" at one point with Branch (IIRC) walked out on an "X" (can't remember if it was Gronk/Edelman). I'll have to re-watch.
I think Gaines would have helped out a bunch. With the personal available, what adjustments would you have made to stop Edelman and Gronk?
RINGLEADER
01-17-2016, 11:32 PM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
I mentioned this -- maybe others did too -- but I just get the sense in those situations that Smith values the sure 3 for a FG > than the risk of really sticking it in there and trying for 7. I don't think he's mis-firing, I think he's doing exactly what he is trying to do by making sure that absolutely no one will catch the ball.
Sorter
01-17-2016, 11:58 PM
* ****ing Edelman is a freak. Don't really have anything else to say. The Gaines matchup might have been interesting but you're needing a prime A. Winfield to lock that **** down (IMO).
*I won't know this until I re-watch but I didn't see much of the man/double concepts (slice/fist/thumbs) Ryan/Williams are known for. I did see 'thumbs" at one point with Branch (IIRC) walked out on an "X" (can't remember if it was Gronk/Edelman). I'll have to re-watch.
I think Gaines would have helped out a bunch. With the personal available, what adjustments would you have made to stop Edelman and Gronk?
Personally, I'd have called designed traps (thumbs/slice) for the #1 weak (primarily Edelman) out of 2X2/2X3 sets on 3rd down. Just from memory, it seemed like the Patriots burned us with slant-flat (which is their #1 concept out of empty (if they think they're going to have to throw hot). Now this, can fuck you up big time on the 3W side due to numbers but depending on your alignment and the offensive alignment, there's potential for forcing the throw to the 2 WR side. You have to have an understanding of that team's pass pro "rules" and how they decide who/when to throw hot.
Your other option that's feasible (IMO), is having Peters follow Edelman all day but as far as I can recall, Peters hasn't had any snaps in the slot.
Shawny2X4
01-18-2016, 12:20 AM
Personally, I'd have called designed traps (thumbs/slice) for the #1 weak (primarily Edelman) out of 2X2/2X3 sets on 3rd down. Just from memory, it seemed like the Patriots burned us with slant-flat (which is their #1 concept out of empty (if they think they're going to have to throw hot). Now this, can **** you up big time on the 3W side due to numbers but depending on your alignment and the offensive alignment, there's potential for forcing the throw to the 2 WR side. You have to have an understanding of that team's pass pro "rules" and how they decide who/when to throw hot.
Your other option that's feasible (IMO), is having Peters follow Edelman all day but as far as I can recall, Peters hasn't had any snaps in the slot.
Wow. I should read more on how the WCO works.
Going into this one, I knew Sutton wasn't going to move Smith and Peters from the outside and into the slot, even though that's where NE usually lines up its top receivers. Maybe Nelson in the slot because he's more agile, but that's alot to ask of him. With Branch in coverage, I think he should have been crowding the line more to disrupt timing. He was never going to be able to keep up with any of those guys.
Ragged Robin
01-18-2016, 12:27 AM
What's really ****ing irritating about it is that the Chiefs have a similar player in Kelce (and Harris) and can similarly **** with teams (whether that's through the original alignment, motion out of the backfield or across the formation.
I've hyped on it before but NE and Arizona are the best teams in the NFL at using motion and alignments to dick teams over and over.
It blows my mind that I can likely pull A22 from the past 2 years and get maybe 30 plays out of an entire ****ing season where Kelce is used like that.
Speaking of that Gronk TD, I don't know why the backshoulder pass isn't part of the offense anymore. They use to hit those with McCluster and Bowe AT LEAST once a week in 2013 but we haven't really seen it at all since.
Just Passin' By
01-18-2016, 12:36 AM
Some numbers regarding the Patriots offense from the game, to compare with your viewing of the A-22 (info supplied via Jeff Howe's Twitter feed) and possibly look at from a Chiefs perspective:
Brady's average time of release to Gronk was 1.88 seconds. It took 3.4 seconds for his 32-yarder and the last 7 throws were sub-2.0 seconds.
Brady's average time of release to Edelman was 2.24 seconds. Take out an early scramble (5.8 seconds), and it was 2.0 seconds.
From the snap to the release, Brady's average throw last night took 2.16 seconds.
Brady was 21 of 27 for 177 yards and 2 TDs when throwing within 2 seconds of the snap.
Brady was 6 of 8 for 80 yards when targeting Peters. Edelman caught 4 for 38 in that matchup.
Edelman also beat Branch twice for 15 yards, Ford once for 11, Parker once for 13, Smith once for 14 and Johnson once for 9.
Cannon yielded 2 pressures. Everyone else was perfect.
He's got some stuff regarding the Patriots defense as well, if you want to check that out.
https://twitter.com/jeffphowe
Aspengc8
01-18-2016, 07:48 AM
There were 3 potential INT's that were dropped IIRC. yes, pats dropped a few passes but 3 dropped picks and the davis fumble are huge. No Houston has hurt their 4 man rush which they rely heavily on as well.
I was actually hoping they would put Peters in the slot on Julian.
Amnorix
01-18-2016, 08:42 AM
Some numbers regarding the Patriots offense from the game, to compare with your viewing of the A-22 (info supplied via Jeff Howe's Twitter feed) and possibly look at from a Chiefs perspective:
Brady's average time of release to Gronk was 1.88 seconds. It took 3.4 seconds for his 32-yarder and the last 7 throws were sub-2.0 seconds.
Brady's average time of release to Edelman was 2.24 seconds. Take out an early scramble (5.8 seconds), and it was 2.0 seconds.
From the snap to the release, Brady's average throw last night took 2.16 seconds.
Brady was 21 of 27 for 177 yards and 2 TDs when throwing within 2 seconds of the snap.
Brady was 6 of 8 for 80 yards when targeting Peters. Edelman caught 4 for 38 in that matchup.
Edelman also beat Branch twice for 15 yards, Ford once for 11, Parker once for 13, Smith once for 14 and Johnson once for 9.
Cannon yielded 2 pressures. Everyone else was perfect.
He's got some stuff regarding the Patriots defense as well, if you want to check that out.
https://twitter.com/jeffphowe
This pretty much explains the lack fo a Chiefs pass rush right there.
And the Chiefs aren't the only good front 7 the Pats did this to. When healthy earlier in the year, they did it to the Jets and Bills as well.
threebag
01-18-2016, 09:29 AM
the CHIEFS played good enough football to win. the D looked a little off. we let some easy picks drop, they recovered a fumble. the turnover decided the game as far as i am concerned. the O ate the clock, too much at the end poor managment of the clock. it was a great season the players did a lot of growing in the system. i look forward to next year i think we really make some noise. Andy needs to let go of the playcalling for sure.
BossChief
01-18-2016, 09:37 AM
I think KC put their jet sweeps on tape in every game. I doubt they would have worked well against such a well coached and well prepared team.
BossChief
01-18-2016, 09:39 AM
the CHIEFS played good enough football to win. the D looked a little off. we let some easy picks drop, they recovered a fumble. the turnover decided the game as far as i am concerned. the O ate the clock, too much at the end poor managment of the clock. it was a great season the players did a lot of growing in the system. i look forward to next year i think we really make some noise. Andy needs to let go of the playcalling for sure.
If Pederson doesn't bring Childress (as reported, he won't be bringing any coaches with him) with him to Philly and Andy promotes him, Childress needs to be either calling plays or have significant input into playcalling.
MahiMike
01-18-2016, 09:56 AM
Patriots get Gronk in single coverage on the edge of the EZ, Chiefs get Kelce surrounded by 4 defenders in the middle of the EZ.
That sums up the difference in available players.
fixed.
the Talking Can
01-18-2016, 09:58 AM
first 3rd down of the game, i think, was 3rd and 9 or 10
we ended up with dee ford dropping back and attempting to cover edelman...first down
game over...schematically can you allow that to happen when you know that's where they're going with the ball?
chiefzilla1501
01-18-2016, 10:09 AM
I think the moral of the story is when Brady has all his receivers + Gronk healthy, they're an unstoppable force. Because they have so many damn receiver options and a QB who is insanely good at finding open receivers in a split second. To our credit, we're probably the closest there is to beating it. If Edelman was beating us a bit, I'm surprised we didn't at least see what we have in Nelson. I noticed him playing some snaps vs. Houston. Don't think we can rely on Gaines to stay healthy. Dorsey needs to improve our speed in the secondary this offseason.
I was a little surprised that receivers were getting open off 10 yards of cushion. We seemed to do that a lot on Saturday but I can't completely remember.
BossChief
01-18-2016, 10:15 AM
first 3rd down of the game, i think, was 3rd and 9 or 10
we ended up with dee ford dropping back and attempting to cover edelman...first down
game over...schematically can you allow that to happen when you know that's where they're going with the ball?
The thing that kinda pisses me off is Sutton had to know Brady was gonna be getting the ball out quickly in this one, and was unprepared for it in the game.
The cover guys gave free releases all game
The DL weren't getting their arms up to try to bat passes or interrupt throwing lanes
Our mighty interior DL did absolutely nothing against replacement level OLmen.
Just very disappointing that we had that much talent on the DL and didn't do a damn thing with it at all, just let them get neutralized.
Buehler445
01-18-2016, 10:17 AM
I think the moral of the story is when Brady has all his receivers + Gronk healthy, they're an unstoppable force. Because they have so many damn receiver options and a QB who is insanely good at finding open receivers in a split second. To our credit, we're probably the closest there is to beating it. If Edelman was beating us a bit, I'm surprised we didn't at least see what we have in Nelson. I noticed him playing some snaps vs. Houston. Don't think we can rely on Gaines to stay healthy. Dorsey needs to improve our speed in the secondary this offseason.
I was a little surprised that receivers were getting open off 10 yards of cushion. We seemed to do that a lot on Saturday but I can't completely remember.
That's pretty close to the way I saw it. I know there was at least 1 first down achieved due to soft coverage.
Quite frankly, I don't know how many additional personnel we should add to the defense. This defense ended up being pretty damned good. I know there are FA and retirements that need to be retained or replaced, buy I don't know that going out and spending big personnel capital on more CB's is the answer. This D was pretty goddamned good. The marginal cost to improve the D would be higher than the marginal cost to improve the offense, IMO, primarily at WR and OL.
chiefzilla1501
01-18-2016, 10:21 AM
That's pretty close to the way I saw it. I know there was at least 1 first down achieved due to soft coverage.
Quite frankly, I don't know how many additional personnel we should add to the defense. This defense ended up being pretty damned good. I know there are FA and retirements that need to be retained or replaced, buy I don't know that going out and spending big personnel capital on more CB's is the answer. This D was pretty goddamned good. The marginal cost to improve the D would be higher than the marginal cost to improve the offense, IMO, primarily at WR and OL.
Yeah, I don't think we need to go and replace anyone in the secondary necessarily. We just need some kind of a speed option to play the nickel besides Gaines. Dorsey's been terrific finding d-backs in the trash pile or the later rounds in the draft.
Red Dawg
01-18-2016, 10:25 AM
Patriots get Gronk in single coverage on the edge of the EZ, Chiefs get Kelce surrounded by 4 defenders in the middle of the EZ.
That sums up the difference in coaching.
We can't do that with Gronk. If we do then he would throw it to Edeman, Danny or the other guy. They have the diversity to make it tough on you and we don't. We don't have the players that win the one on one battles like they do. They can stick two on Kelce and still cover us up. We can't stick two in Gronks face and do the same.
KCSLC2008
01-18-2016, 10:36 AM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
If it were 4th and goal, I would agree, but it wasn't.
It was 3rd and goal and an INT takes away three points. I want the 7, and maybe a different guy should have been targeted given the coverage, but a pick does no one any favors.
In fact, I was happy that on the near pick in the 4th Quarter that he didn't take a sack, throw it away, or run out of bounds short of the marker. That would be plain stupid. He was still trying to get the first, which I can't say he did in the Arizona game last year.
KCSLC2008
01-18-2016, 10:40 AM
If Pederson doesn't bring Childress (as reported, he won't be bringing any coaches with him) with him to Philly and Andy promotes him, Childress needs to be either calling plays or have significant input into playcalling.
Fixed it for you.
Chief Northman
01-18-2016, 10:56 AM
This pretty much explains the lack fo a Chiefs pass rush right there.
And the Chiefs aren't the only good front 7 the Pats did this to. When healthy earlier in the year, they did it to the Jets and Bills as well.
And the common link is the defensive tree here:
Old Jets: Rex Ryan, Mike Pettine, Bob Sutton. You can argue Bowles has his own system, but Belichick continues to torment his AFC east coaching fraternity wherever they end up......
I am not sure why the Chiefs did not employ more press coverage given the fact the throws were coming out so quick.
On the opposite side of the ball, I am not sure why the Chiefs would not adopt a similar strategy and provide Smith with a quick, rhythm passing attack: suspect O-line, poor deep-ball completion percentage..... but yet we have backs that can catch the ball well, and a big target in Kelce and excellent route runner in Maclin (who was injured I know). Add a target or two and a true slot receiver, and Alex Smith's already efficient performances could improve that much more - plus this team can run the ball more effectively than NE.
threebag
01-18-2016, 11:03 AM
the best part is we have put a good product on the field. we have a chance to really improve some depth and fix the 2-3 needs we have. i like the way we look going into next year so far. pretty happy they made this season great to watch. lot of charater guys and good people on this team. Dorsey is doing a hell of a job
cdcox
01-18-2016, 11:09 AM
That's pretty close to the way I saw it. I know there was at least 1 first down achieved due to soft coverage.
Quite frankly, I don't know how many additional personnel we should add to the defense. This defense ended up being pretty damned good. I know there are FA and retirements that need to be retained or replaced, buy I don't know that going out and spending big personnel capital on more CB's is the answer. This D was pretty goddamned good. The marginal cost to improve the D would be higher than the marginal cost to improve the offense, IMO, primarily at WR and OL.
At some point your roster becomes generically good enough and you need to add pieces specifically to beat the best team in the conference. I think we are there and additional press corners are the pieces to add to beat Brady and Co.
Amnorix
01-18-2016, 01:23 PM
And the common link is the defensive tree here:
Old Jets: Rex Ryan, Mike Pettine, Bob Sutton. You can argue Bowles has his own system, but Belichick continues to torment his AFC east coaching fraternity wherever they end up......
Rex has in the past given the Patriots tremendous trouble in various games. Sometimes the Pats croak him, but when he had those Ravens teams, and the early Jets teams, they really stifled Brady and Co.
I am not sure why the Chiefs did not employ more press coverage given the fact the throws were coming out so quick.
Agreed. The best defensive approach to stopping the Patriots in my view is:
1. ignore the run. Pats suck at it.
2. man/press defense on WRs. No free releases.
3. Bash Gronk with a LB/DL if you see him in your area, before he releases into the pattern, at which point you should double team him if possible.
4. blow up Edelman on crossing patterns if within the five yard chuck area to get him worried and encourage T-Rex arms.
5. Force the Patriots to go over hte top to beat you. They kinda suck at that most of the time.
The Pats struggle more with press coverage than most other things, and sometimes get called for picks/rubs on offense when trying to free up from that.
On the opposite side of the ball, I am not sure why the Chiefs would not adopt a similar strategy and provide Smith with a quick, rhythm passing attack: suspect O-line, poor deep-ball completion percentage..... but yet we have backs that can catch the ball well, and a big target in Kelce and excellent route runner in Maclin (who was injured I know). Add a target or two and a true slot receiver, and Alex Smith's already efficient performances could improve that much more - plus this team can run the ball more effectively than NE.
I think Alex can be mini-Brady. He is a good decision-maker, highly accruate, and has very quick releases.
I will say this -- Brady and the Pats have run essentially teh SAME offensive system for 15 years. They are setting records with it, and winning more games than ANY NFL team has ever won in history. If it was as easy to stop as what I said before, somebody would have done it already. If it was as easy to copy/emulate as it seems, others would have done that too.
Also, note that the Patriots offense is EXTREMELY complex. Many players (especially WRs) suck at picking it up, and therefore get washed out. The route trees, and need to be on the same page as Brady, is CRITICAL, and that takes years to develop. At this point, Brady has had Gronk, Edelman and Amendola for 3+ years EACH, and that makes the offense ridiculous WHEN they are healthy.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 09:14 AM
For what it's worth:
Kerry J. Byrne @footballfacts 22m22 minutes ago
The #TomBrady @Patriots 4-1 when attempting 50+ passes in playoffs. All other QBs in @NFL history 3-28.
philfree
01-19-2016, 09:33 AM
I don't have all 22 and the schemes can be discussed over and over but if we don't fumble the ball away the game truly goes down to the wire. We were driving the ball before the half and driving the ball after the half. We were running the ball well against them too. If we don't fumble we start to wear out their D. Instead the fumble totally put the onus on our D. A lot of other things happened that could have mattered but it was the fumble that made the difference.
CoMoChief
01-19-2016, 09:55 AM
I don't have all 22 and the schemes can be discussed over and over but if we don't fumble the ball away the game truly goes down to the wire. We were driving the ball before the half and driving the ball after the half. We were running the ball well against them too. If we don't fumble we start to wear out their D. Instead the fumble totally put the onus on our D. A lot of other things happened that could have mattered but it was the fumble that made the difference.
That and never touching Brady. Sutton not being able to defend a measly quick slant route.
It was a limping Chiefs team going to to take on this generation's best QB, at their house where they rarely lose. Chiefs were going to have to play damn near perfect football, and they had to get to Brady to force him into bad throws and win the turnover battle.
Instead the Chiefs never touched Brady and they had a crucial fumble. The fumble practically killed any momentum the Chiefs had leading up to that point, considering they were driving downfield looking to score. Up to that point we were running the ball pretty well on them, and could have continued pounding the rock at them, tiring out their defense a little.
No excuse for the clock mgmt fiasco. None whatsoever. As the QB/field general during a 2min offense you always have a few default plays up your sleeve for whenever you have to hurry to the line for a play. Instead there appeared to be no sense of urgency as we huddled up and took our sweet ass time. That's total 100% incompetence on both Reid and Smith. Above all else you have to fucking pay attention in the game and know what's at stake, how much time is left etc. I still can't believe it really...now we all know what Philly fans were talking about.
Guess they can build on this and hopefully improve next season. Childress is a more accomplished OC than Pederson. Hope he can make a difference. Hope we go vertical a lot more. Really tired of going sideline to sideline in the passing game. Or passing it at the LOS and not to the 1st down sticks. Hopefully Charles is back 100% and DJ ad Berry are signed. Need more WR help....god why is that always the case year in and year out? Outside of Maclin we really have nobody. Need more than just Kelce.
Bowser
01-19-2016, 10:01 AM
For what it's worth:
Kerry J. Byrne @footballfacts 22m22 minutes ago
The #TomBrady @Patriots 4-1 when attempting 50+ passes in playoffs. All other QBs in @NFL history 3-28.
That is insane
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 10:18 AM
That and never touching Brady. Sutton not being able to defend a measly quick slant route.
Those aren't measly quick slants. The Patriots WRs run option routes based on the defender's leverage. If the defender's leverage is inside, they go outside. If the leverage is outside, they come inside.
If this shit was easy to defend, the Patriots wouldn't be top 3 in offense year after year after year...
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 10:21 AM
That is insane
That Brady guy is pretty good! :D
But seriously, it's partly game plan specific. NO NFL team in history, I don't think, ever went into a game saying "fuck it, we aren't even going to try to run". You heard idiot Dan Fouts say it during the second quarter. Something like "so far, the Patriots have run 21 plays and 20 were passes iwth only one run. They can't sustain that".
Of course they can you fucking moron. This isn't the 80s. The Patriots, when healthy, dont' give a shit about "run to set up the pass" or any of that crap. They know a run play will get them 2 yarsd or so on average, and a pass will get them more. Far more. Some pass plays are really just runs, in terms of risk and design.
But that is what ties into the 50+ pass record Brady has. No other team in NFL history thought "we will throw 50 times and WIN". Other NFL teams throw 50 times ONLY when they are behind and desperate.
ModSocks
01-19-2016, 10:43 AM
Patriots did a great job of creating the matchups they wanted. I noticed on several occasions that they moved both Gronk and Edelman around to create 1v1 matchups with Tyvon Branch. I thought it was pretty apparent that their goal was to draw a safety, particularly Branch, into single coverage and exploit that mismatch.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 10:46 AM
Patriots did a great job of creating the matchups they wanted. I noticed on several occasions that they moved both Gronk and Edelman around to create 1v1 matchups with Tyvon Branch. I thought it was pretty apparent that their goal was to draw a safety, particularly Branch, into single coverage and exploit that mismatch.
They are excellent at that. The reason Brady can throw it in 2 seconds or less is because he already knows, pre-snap, where he is going to throw the ball.
Just Passin' By
01-19-2016, 10:47 AM
That is insane
"The Patriots are 15-7 (.682) when Brady passes the ball 50 or more times, including the postseason. Every other team in modern NFL history (since 1960) has combined to go 100-386-6 (.209) in this situation. The Brady Patriots have singularly won 13 percent of all the 50-attempt victories during the past 55 years of professional football. Lamonica, by the way, never attempted 50 passes in a game.
Victory in these bombing campaigns is difficult for two reasons: First, it’s usually a sign of desperation. Most NFL teams tend to pass the ball that often only when they’re down big. Second, desperate quarterbacks tend to throw interceptions, sometimes multiple. And teams simply don’t win when they throw interceptions.
Brady and the Patriots, however, are utterly unique in their ability to win these games: Brady is the career leader in 50-attempt games (22), 50-attempt wins (15) and 50-attempt winning percentage (.682).
Nobody else is close.
Peyton Manning is second with 17 50-attempt games, and he’s just 4-13 (.235) in those contests."
Aaron Rogers has never had to do this, not even once.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/2015/09/byrne_why_tom_brady_is_nfls_best_ever_gunslinger
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/brady-the-50-pass-per-game-gunslinger.1123848/
Bowser
01-19-2016, 10:50 AM
Patriots did a great job of creating the matchups they wanted. I noticed on several occasions that they moved both Gronk and Edelman around to create 1v1 matchups with Tyvon Branch. I thought it was pretty apparent that their goal was to draw a safety, particularly Branch, into single coverage and exploit that mismatch.
And that was the frustrating part of the game for me personally - Sutton either never recognized what they were doing, or just flat never adjusted his scheme accordingly.
Frankly that's two playoff games in two tries with us where he has shit the bed.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 10:59 AM
And that was the frustrating part of the game for me personally - Sutton either never recognized what they were doing, or just flat never adjusted his scheme accordingly.
Frankly that's two playoff games in two tries with us where he has shit the bed.
Hard to double everyone. Amendola is also a threat.
If I were a defensive team, however, I would COMPLETELY sell out to stop Edelman/Gronk. Let the Pats try to run if they want. Let Amendola and the no-names beat us. BUT NO WAY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WILL IT BE THOSE TWO.
But if it were easy to stop, I'm sure someone would have done it by now.
philfree
01-19-2016, 10:59 AM
I really thought our down three linemen would be a difference in this game but we didn't come out with three down. We came with two down and we played a lot of two down it seemed. The best way to stop Brady is to get in his face right up the middle. I saw that as a scheme mistake.
Brock
01-19-2016, 11:12 AM
I really thought our down three linemen would be a difference in this game but we didn't come out with three down. We came with two down and we played a lot of two down it seemed. The best way to stop Brady is to get in his face right up the middle. I saw that as a scheme mistake.
That doesn't work when he gets rid of the ball in 2 seconds. You have to hope he'll make a mistake, and he did. They just didn't capitalize on them.
philfree
01-19-2016, 11:18 AM
That doesn't work when he gets rid of the ball in 2 seconds. You have to hope he'll make a mistake, and he did. They just didn't capitalize on them.
Yeah that's tough to deal with but if we get in his face a little maybe we clog the passing lanes and his vision a little. On the first 1st down they got we had two down linemen and as the play unfolded the passing lane down the middle is wide open.
ModSocks
01-19-2016, 11:20 AM
Yeah that's tough to deal with but if we get in his face a little maybe we clog the passing lanes and his vision a little. On the first 1st down they got we had two down linemen and as the play unfolded the passing lane down the middle is wide open.
Brock is right, it wouldn't have mattered. The Pass Rush simply wasn't going to get there considering how quickly he was releasing the ball. The Chiefs opened the game with blitzes and they simply couldn't get to him.
The Chiefs failed to do what got them there; take the football away. They had chances but they couldn't hold onto the ball.
philfree
01-19-2016, 11:35 AM
Brock is right, it wouldn't have mattered. The Pass Rush simply wasn't going to get there considering how quickly he was releasing the ball. The Chiefs opened the game with blitzes and they simply couldn't get to him.
The Chiefs failed to do what got them there; take the football away. They had chances but they couldn't hold onto the ball.
Like I said getting the ball out that quick is tough to deal with. As far as blitzs I hadn't mentioned anything about blitzs. And yes we left a pick or two on the field so that didn't help. Our turnover when it happened was huge.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 03:03 PM
JFC
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZG9zy4UYAABRku.jpg
listopencil
01-19-2016, 03:24 PM
JFC
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZG9zy4UYAABRku.jpg
Now watch BB run it against us 50 times as we play pass D for 60 minutes, that fucker.
temper11
01-19-2016, 03:46 PM
Don't remember who but a poster in the GDT said on fourth and goal that Alex would throw over the heads back of the end-zone and sure enough that's what happened. That is typical for Alex Smith he needs give guys a chance instead of worry of throwing an INT so much.
Win games by outscoring your opponent by scoring touchdowns and not settling on field goals, but that's what Chiefs do.
According to metrics by Dick Vermeil, 70% chance of winning the game if you are +1 in turn-over margin. +1.
http://media.610sports.com/a/112619259/01-18-6a-chiefs-pats-dick-vermeil-shout-it-out.htm?pageid=491426
Smith's care with the football is underrated on this board.
"Yeah, he's careful with the football but...", "Sure, he doesn't throw INTs but..." +1 turn-over margin gives you a 70% chance of winning the football game. Not yards per throw, not number of TD passes by the QB, not number of TDs to wide receivers... turn-overs. Turn-overs, turn-overs, turn-overs.
Chief Northman
01-19-2016, 03:49 PM
Now watch BB run it against us 50 times as we play pass D for 60 minutes, that ****er.
This is not a "hate Denver" troll post (but know that I do hate those motherfuckers):
If the Pats pass 50+ times against Denver, I know one thing: Von Miller will take a liberty or two on Tom Brady. I would not put it past him to stick his helmet right in his back late and deal with the repercussions later. This sounds bush league, but if you want to contain a non-stop NE passing attack? Hurt Brady. Beat him up Giants-style, and it may mean taking a flag or two to intimidate.
Denver has the opportunity to learn from the KC game. I expect a lot of press man, and for Phillips to dial up the heat. Talib, Harris, Roby can arguably buy more time for the Denver pass rush than Peters, Smith, Parker could for the Chiefs.
Unlike most, I think Denver has a great shot to get to the Superbowl.
Discuss Thrower
01-19-2016, 03:51 PM
According to metrics by Dick Vermeil, 70% chance of winning the game if you are +1 in turn-over margin. +1.
http://media.610sports.com/a/112619259/01-18-6a-chiefs-pats-dick-vermeil-shout-it-out.htm?pageid=491426
Smith's care with the football is underrated on this board.
"Yeah, he's careful with the football but...", "Sure, he doesn't throw INTs but..." +1 turn-over margin gives you a 70% chance of winning the football game. Not yards per throw, not number of TD passes by the QB, not number of TDs to wide receivers... turn-overs. Turn-overs, turn-overs, turn-overs.
Turnovers are more than 50% a product of sheer luck.
http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/10/how-random-are-turnovers/
temper11
01-19-2016, 03:58 PM
Turnovers are more than 50% a product of sheer luck.
http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/10/how-random-are-turnovers/
Then Smith is the luckiest son of a bitch I've ever seen.
jspchief
01-19-2016, 04:34 PM
According to metrics by Dick Vermeil, 70% chance of winning the game if you are +1 in turn-over margin. +1.
http://media.610sports.com/a/112619259/01-18-6a-chiefs-pats-dick-vermeil-shout-it-out.htm?pageid=491426
Smith's care with the football is underrated on this board.
"Yeah, he's careful with the football but...", "Sure, he doesn't throw INTs but..." +1 turn-over margin gives you a 70% chance of winning the football game. Not yards per throw, not number of TD passes by the QB, not number of TDs to wide receivers... turn-overs. Turn-overs, turn-overs, turn-overs.
I think everyone appreciates Smith's ball security. But it's not an all or nothing proposition. You can take care of the ball and be a threat (Brady). You can also be extremely turnover averse and still hamper your team's ability to win games. Going 3 and out all game with zero turnovers isn't going to win you many games, even if you end up +1 in turnover margin. Throwing the ball away on 4th down to avoid an interception is not going to win games.
Smith has to find a balance (he has at times this season) between protecting the ball, and knowing when the situation demands taking risks.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 04:39 PM
I think everyone appreciates Smith's ball security. But it's not an all or nothing proposition. You can take care of the ball and be a threat (Brady). You can also be extremely turnover averse and still hamper your team's ability to win games. Going 3 and out all game with zero turnovers isn't going to win you many games, even if you end up +1 in turnover margin. Throwing the ball away on 4th down to avoid an interception is not going to win games.
Smith has to find a balance (he has at times this season) between protecting the ball, and knowing when the situation demands taking risks.
Agreed. Aaron Rodgers' stunningly poor come-from-behind record is evidence of that, I think. As you fall behind, your risk/reward profile changes. If you're losing by, whatever, 17, in the second half, then you MUST start scoring, and if you give up a pick tryign to do that, then oh well, you lose by 24 instead of 17, so what.
Rodgers is SO turnover adverse I'm not sure he can alter his DNA to deal with that. Unless it's a hail mary at the very end, he ain't risking a pick.
Discuss Thrower
01-19-2016, 04:45 PM
Agreed. Aaron Rodgers' stunningly poor come-from-behind record is evidence of that, I think. As you fall behind, your risk/reward profile changes. If you're losing by, whatever, 17, in the second half, then you MUST start scoring, and if you give up a pick tryign to do that, then oh well, you lose by 24 instead of 17, so what.
Rodgers is SO turnover adverse I'm not sure he can alter his DNA to deal with that. Unless it's a hail mary at the very end, he ain't risking a pick.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A.Rodgers last 3 playoff losses, he led a game-tying drive in final 6mins of 4thQ.. Each game, after tying game-he never touched ball again</p>— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/689128101645803520">January 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Nightfyre
01-19-2016, 04:49 PM
I don't understand why we didn't play more man-press. It's like Sutton abandoned everything that worked for us all year to try some zone-blitz concepts. At least, that was my big takeaway from the defensive side of the ball. Also, Brady had no problem with identifying exactly where to put the ball when we blitzed. Almost like he knew what plays we were going to run...
temper11
01-19-2016, 04:51 PM
Agreed. Aaron Rodgers' stunningly poor come-from-behind record is evidence of that, I think. As you fall behind, your risk/reward profile changes. If you're losing by, whatever, 17, in the second half, then you MUST start scoring, and if you give up a pick tryign to do that, then oh well, you lose by 24 instead of 17, so what.
Rodgers is SO turnover adverse I'm not sure he can alter his DNA to deal with that. Unless it's a hail mary at the very end, he ain't risking a pick.
I think you meant Smith there in your last sentence. Assuming so, I disagree. I think he has taken more calculated risks. Look at the crazy scramble throw to Avant that resulted in a first down. Another scramble throw on a later drive - to save the drive - that was nearly intercepted. Smith is taking more risks and has this season especially with the addition of a receiver he trusts. I still think people brush off his league best interception ratio though, given how important turn-overs are to winning the game... People mention it, but only in a "yeah, but..." kind of a way. Like it's something they have to mention for legal reasons and not as an actual stat that holds much meaning.
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 04:55 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A.Rodgers last 3 playoff losses, he led a game-tying drive in final 6mins of 4thQ.. Each game, after tying game-he never touched ball again</p>— Ben Fennell (@BenFennell_NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/689128101645803520">January 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
My memory is that there is some stat like "down 10 or more points in the fourth quarter, Rodgers has NEVER won a game". I don't remember the exact stat, and it may have changed since I saw it, but the stat was STUNNING.
temper11
01-19-2016, 04:57 PM
My memory is that there is some stat like "down 10 or more points in the fourth quarter, Rodgers has NEVER won a game". I don't remember the exact stat, and it may have changed since I saw it, but the stat was STUNNING.
My apologies. I didn't think you were talking about Rodgers before, probably because I too am shocked that he had such a poor record coming from behind.
chiefzilla1501
01-19-2016, 05:00 PM
Agreed. Aaron Rodgers' stunningly poor come-from-behind record is evidence of that, I think. As you fall behind, your risk/reward profile changes. If you're losing by, whatever, 17, in the second half, then you MUST start scoring, and if you give up a pick tryign to do that, then oh well, you lose by 24 instead of 17, so what.
Rodgers is SO turnover adverse I'm not sure he can alter his DNA to deal with that. Unless it's a hail mary at the very end, he ain't risking a pick.
IF your QB can flip the switch and take over in the 4Q. I agree. I love the game manager mentality. But you have to have a great killer instinct to be able to make plays when they matter. And that's why I really hate the game manager approach for Smith. Smith is outrageously good at keeping games within a TD. Even when they're down by a few scores he always finds a way to keep the game within 7. But closing those games out is a different story. He hasn't been great at that at all. It's pretty amazing looking over 3 years how many times our defense has bailed us out in close games. That's not an approach I want to see week in week out.
I'll give Smith the benefit of the doubt against NE that maybe his lack of weapons made it impossible to attack. Because I like the way he approached a lot of the second half of this season.
Brock
01-19-2016, 05:03 PM
My memory is that there is some stat like "down 10 or more points in the fourth quarter, Rodgers has NEVER won a game". I don't remember the exact stat, and it may have changed since I saw it, but the stat was STUNNING.
He won 1 this year down 20-0 at half though
Amnorix
01-19-2016, 05:07 PM
He won 1 this year down 20-0 at half though
Right. I don't even know what the stat is anymore. And maybe he is gaining perspective on that. Obviously he is a GREAT QB. But that is one flaw (strange to think of not wanting to throw an INT as a "flaw) that he had that was seemingly preventing him from coming back from behind in some situations. Maybe he's better at that now, I dunno.
Rain Man
01-19-2016, 05:19 PM
Agreed. Aaron Rodgers' stunningly poor come-from-behind record is evidence of that, I think. As you fall behind, your risk/reward profile changes. If you're losing by, whatever, 17, in the second half, then you MUST start scoring, and if you give up a pick tryign to do that, then oh well, you lose by 24 instead of 17, so what.
Well put.
Rodgers is SO turnover adverse I'm not sure he can alter his DNA to deal with that. Unless it's a hail mary at the very end, he ain't risking a pick.
But most of the time it's apparently going to be a touchdown.
OctoberFart
01-19-2016, 05:22 PM
* ****ing Edelman is a freak. Don't really have anything else to say. The Gaines matchup might have been interesting but you're needing a prime A. Winfield to lock that **** down (IMO).
*I won't know this until I re-watch but I didn't see much of the man/double concepts (slice/fist/thumbs) Ryan/Williams are known for. I did see 'thumbs" at one point with Branch (IIRC) walked out on an "X" (can't remember if it was Gronk/Edelman). I'll have to re-watch.
I think Gaines would have helped out a bunch. With the personal available, what adjustments would you have made to stop Edelman and Gronk?
I saw #55 on Edelman. LOL
Buehler445
01-19-2016, 08:16 PM
Right. I don't even know what the stat is anymore. And maybe he is gaining perspective on that. Obviously he is a GREAT QB. But that is one flaw (strange to think of not wanting to throw an INT as a "flaw) that he had that was seemingly preventing him from coming back from behind in some situations. Maybe he's better at that now, I dunno.
I think them having largely a shit defense while he's been there has been a factor in that statistic.
Buehler445
01-19-2016, 08:17 PM
I saw #55 on Edelman. LOL
Yeaaaaaah. That was a brilliant idea.
Squalor2
01-19-2016, 11:06 PM
JFC
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZG9zy4UYAABRku.jpg
as an observer, you are posting a shiton less than you used to. i think you and your ilk recognize the entropic failure of the pats
Squalor2
01-19-2016, 11:19 PM
Well shit.
But most of the time it's apparently going to be a touchdown.
fyp
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