Any commercial brokers on here?

[Rain Man]

Quick question if you don't mind.

My company has office space in downtown Denver, and we’ve been working a deal with our current landlord to move to a different space in the building. We agreed on a rate and they put the lease together. This landlord offers good pricing, but they’re very hard to deal with and we don’t find them very trustworthy.

Anyway, they sent over the lease, and it contains an expense stop for 2012 (when we first moved into the building). We expected the expense stop to be for 2016 since that’s when our new lease starts. Is it standard to keep the expense stop at the initial lease setting when a tenant is renewing? Or does it usually get updated to a date related to the new lease? How much of a battling point is this? And does it make a difference that we’re moving to a different space in the building?

Any advice would be appreciated. Good advice will be rewarded with a picture of an adorable kitten.

[Chiefshrink]

Everything is negotiable regardless. I would think especially here in Denver where the cost of living is astronomically high and real estate is back on the rise (key here)]that the expense stop would have a higher number to your point for 2016. Not a lower number from 2012. Maybe it's an oversight but then again to your point maybe it has something to do with your new digs according to their calculations. Larger digs or smaller digs?

Everything is negotiable is the field you play on and don't take no if you feel it is really unfair especially if you check around first with your other tenants if they will talk to you about their contracts which is what I would do if I were you prior to talking with them so that your negotiating position is well armed. However, they may feel they dont have to play ball(renegotiate) and are willing to lose your business knowing they can fill your space immediately because of demand and you really have no leverage at all. It's the cost of doing business aspect so I would think that number should be higher.

Kinda of like the salary cap in the NFL. It only goes higher as time goes on.

[Dave Lane]

Quick question if you don't mind.

My company has office space in downtown Denver, and we’ve been working a deal with our current landlord to move to a different space in the building. We agreed on a rate and they put the lease together. This landlord offers good pricing, but they’re very hard to deal with and we don’t find them very trustworthy.

Anyway, they sent over the lease, and it contains an expense stop for 2012 (when we first moved into the building). We expected the expense stop to be for 2016 since that’s when our new lease starts. Is it standard to keep the expense stop at the initial lease setting when a tenant is renewing? Or does it usually get updated to a date related to the new lease? How much of a battling point is this? And does it make a difference that we’re moving to a different space in the building?

Any advice would be appreciated. Good advice will be rewarded with a picture of an adorable kitten.

If you are leasing a new space the stop should be based on 2016. Or at least 2015 since 2016 technically is unknown at this point. It maybe they just left the date in from the previous lease. Request they update the lease to read 2016 and failing that demand it be 2015. Have they hit you for stop payments before at your current space?

[Rain Man]

Everything is negotiable regardless. I would think especially here in Denver where the cost of living is astronomically high and real estate is back on the rise (key here)]that the expense stop would have a higher number to your point for 2016. Not a lower number from 2012. Maybe it's an oversight but then again to your point maybe it has something to do with your new digs according to their calculations. Larger digs or smaller digs?

Everything is negotiable is the field you play on and don't take no if you feel it is really unfair especially if you check around first with your other tenants if they will talk to you about their contracts which is what I would do if I were you prior to talking with them so that your negotiating position is well armed. However, they may feel they dont have to play ball(renegotiate) and are willing to lose your business knowing they can fill your space immediately because of demand and you really have no leverage at all. It's the cost of doing business aspect so I would think that number should be higher.

Kinda of like the salary cap in the NFL. It only goes higher as time goes on.

Yeah, the thing is that a 2012 expense stop means that we're covering four years of inflation right from the start. Essentially, it means that the landlord is paying utilities, cleaning, taxes, etc. at 2012 levels and we're responsible for the difference. That seems like a really bad deal on our part and doesn't seem like it's standard practice.

I love the building, but I can't stand the landlord. They're sneaky and petty and try to nickel and dime us, but they're also apparently not bright enough to do research since their base rates are under the market considerably. So they keep ripping us off, but even so it's still a good deal. I don't even know how to react to that. Do I fight the corruption or do I let them win and think they're taking advantage of me when I'm really the one winning? It's a bizarre situation.

Oh, and here's a kitten for you.

http://tabbycatsrockmyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/adorable-kitten.bmp

[Rain Man]

If you are leasing a new space the stop should be based on 2016. Or at least 2015 since 2016 technically is unknown at this point. It maybe they just left the date in from the previous lease. Request they update the lease to read 2016 and failing that demand it be 2015. Have they hit you for stop payments before at your current space?

Yeah, we have a payment every year, but it's been small. It was only a few hundred dollars last year. In our previous building, it ended up being several thousand in our last year of the lease, so I'm really sensitive about it.

It seems to me that it should be 2016 base year, but a commercial broker friend of mine just wrote back and said, "Yeah, not surprising that they do that, and probably not worth battling over."

I'm completely confused now. It just seems wrong, but I don't want to fight over it if it's not going to be a big deal.

Here's your kitten:

http://kittentoob.toobnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2015/05/those-eyes.jpg

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Yeah, the thing is that a 2012 expense stop means that we're covering four years of inflation right from the start. Essentially, it means that the landlord is paying utilities, cleaning, taxes, etc. at 2012 levels and we're responsible for the difference. That seems like a really bad deal on our part and doesn't seem like it's standard practice.

I love the building, but I can't stand the landlord. They're sneaky and petty and try to nickel and dime us, but they're also apparently not bright enough to do research since their base rates are under the market considerably. So they keep ripping us off, but even so it's still a good deal. I don't even know how to react to that. Do I fight the corruption or do I let them win and think they're taking advantage of me when I'm really the one winning? It's a bizarre situation.

Oh, and here's a kitten for you.

http://tabbycatsrockmyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/adorable-kitten.bmp

If you feel like you are winning in the overall picture. Let it go. Get a good nights sleep.

[Dave Lane]

Yeah, we have a payment every year, but it's been small. It was only a few hundred dollars last year. In our previous building, it ended up being several thousand in our last year of the lease, so I'm really sensitive about it.

It seems to me that it should be 2016 base year, but a commercial broker friend of mine just wrote back and said, "Yeah, not surprising that they do that, and probably not worth battling over."

I'm completely confused now. It just seems wrong, but I don't want to fight over it if it's not going to be a big deal.

Here's your kitten:

http://kittentoob.toobnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2015/05/those-eyes.jpg

I've found it never hurts to ask. Worse case they refuse to update the date. If they are worried it may screw up they deal I'm pretty confident they will back down. I do all the time. If no one asks then they don't get an update.

[Rain Man]

If you feel like you are winning in the overall picture. Let it go. Get a good nights sleep.


Yeah, that's kind of where I'm reluctantly landing. I've been in the building for four years and like it, and the price is good. It just annoys the heck out of me that they keep lying to me, and seem to think that they're pulling the wool over my eyes. I have no idea how they don't understand market rates, but commercial brokers tend to boycott them because they're so hard to deal with, so maybe they don't get data.

Here's a kitten for you:

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9700000/Adorable-lil-Kittens-cute-kittens-9781745-500-375.jpg

[Rain Man]

I've found it never hurts to ask. Worse case they refuse to update the date. If they are worried it may screw up they deal I'm pretty confident they will back down. I do all the time. If no one asks then they don't get an update.

Yeah, we went back to them about it, and they said they'd just recalculate to a higher rate. They also sprung on us that they're going to "continue to hold" our deposit when the new space should have a lower deposit. The deposit thing isn't a huge deal financially, but it was a knife planted square in my back after some other negotiations.

The situation is alien to how we negotiate with our vendors and customers. We have a "look out for me and I'll look out for you" relationship with our key people where we all do what's fair while still making a profit. It's really nice and we all tend to trust each other. These guys are exactly the opposite, and it sure damages the relationship.

I figure I'll sign the lease and over the next five years I'll get asked about the building by at least one potential tenant, and I won't pull any punches. They'll make a couple of thousand dollars off of me and never know that it cost them much more than that.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/84/c7/2d/84c72dc6285517fda801ad3184755c0b.jpg

[JoeyChuckles]

I'm here for the kittens.

[Rain Man]

I'm here for the kittens.

You have to earn the kitten. But I can give you an adorable manta ray for your effort.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/21/c4/01/21c401919251f4609880161f076551cb.jpg

[Chiefshrink]

Yeah, the thing is that a 2012 expense stop means that we're covering four years of inflation right from the start. Essentially, it means that the landlord is paying utilities, cleaning, taxes, etc. at 2012 levels and we're responsible for the difference. That seems like a really bad deal on our part and doesn't seem like it's standard practice.

I love the building, but I can't stand the landlord. They're sneaky and petty and try to nickel and dime us, but they're also apparently not bright enough to do research since their base rates are under the market considerably. So they keep ripping us off, but even so it's still a good deal. I don't even know how to react to that. Do I fight the corruption or do I let them win and think they're taking advantage of me when I'm really the one winning? It's a bizarre situation.

Oh, and here's a kitten for you.

http://tabbycatsrockmyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/adorable-kitten.bmp

Well then you have answered your own question then in my eyes. If you feel you are getting a good deal but feel nickel and dimed to death then you have to crunch the numbers on the nickel and dime stuff and is it worth it still. They may realize they gave you too good of a deal back then because the market wasn't that hot so maybe they are trying to make it up somewhat by being petty and sneaky with the nickel and diming. Combine that with your nuances about $$ in general and dealing with people and then you will have your final answer. I really don't think this is about $$ at all with you specifically. With you this is about fairness and what is right and more importantly who you are giving your $$ to and the lack of professionalism dealing with seedy greedy nickel and dimers that drives you up the wall.

Often times you pay some kind of price for a good deal. Are you still willing to pay the price that often does not involve $$ is the question for you in my mind.

[Rain Man]

Well then you have answered your own question then in my eyes. If you feel you are getting a good deal but feel nickel and dimed to death then you have to crunch the numbers on the nickel and dime stuff and is it worth it still. They may realize they gave you too good of a deal back then because the market wasn't that hot so maybe they are trying to make it up somewhat by being petty and sneaky with the nickel and diming. Combine that with your nuances about $$ in general and dealing with people and then you will have your final answer. I really don't think this is about $$ at all with you specifically. With you this is about fairness and what is right and more importantly who you are giving your $$ to and the lack of professionalism dealing with seedy greedy nickel and dimers that drive you up the wall.

Often times you pay some kind of price for a good deal. Are you still willing to pay the price that often does not involve $$ is the question for you in my mind.

You are exactly right on the bold part. I can crunch the numbers and sign the deal, but I really bristle at not being treated honestly. And from a pride standpoint, I want to tell them that they're not really fooling me or trapping me into a deal, but if I do, I'll end up paying a higher rent in another building.

Here's a therapy kitten for your service:

http://media.theindychannel.com/photo/2014/11/14/Kitten_Therapy__Group_invites_strangers__2247590002_9588465_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

[Chiefshrink]

You are exactly right on the bold part. I can crunch the numbers and sign the deal, but I really bristle at not being treated honestly. And from a pride standpoint, I want to tell them that they're not really fooling me or trapping me into a deal, but if I do, I'll end up paying a higher rent in another building.

Here's a therapy kitten for your service:

http://media.theindychannel.com/photo/2014/11/14/Kitten_Therapy__Group_invites_strangers__2247590002_9588465_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

Have you given them any indication that you do not like them in general ? I guess what I am asking is do they know already you are pissed ?

[Rain Man]

Have you given them any indication that you do not like them in general ? I guess what I am asking is do they know already you are pissed ?

I don't think they do. I try to remain diplomatic. But when the guy told me on Friday that "they had decided to hold my deposit", I suspect that he could tell by my glower and flared nostrils that I was not happy. I don't know if openly being mad is a good strategy with these people or not. Most times, it's not, but they're not the normal people that I deal with.

[-King-]

Move your office to a park. People are happier working outdoors. A happy employee is a productive employee.

[Chiefshrink]

I don't think they do. I try to remain diplomatic. But when the guy told me on Friday that "they had decided to hold my deposit", I suspect that he could tell by my glower and flared nostrils that I was not happy. I don't know if openly being mad is a good strategy with these people or not. Most times, it's not, but they're not the normal people that I deal with.

And they are holding your deposit because.......

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I don't think they do. I try to remain diplomatic. But when the guy told me on Friday that "they had decided to hold my deposit", I suspect that he could tell by my glower and flared nostrils that I was not happy. I don't know if openly being mad is a good strategy with these people or not. Most times, it's not, but they're not the normal people that I deal with.

sometimes those type people are like big bullies , when you punch them in the face they quit being assholes. But it's normally best to keep a good business like approach. Look at the bottom dollar and if you're winning then that's all that matters. Think Trump.

[srvy]

Its a new lease I would demand the 2012 date to be released.

[Rain Man]

And they are holding your deposit because.......

"They want to manage their risk." They're doing some buildout on the proposed new space, which is built into our lease. It involves hard costs on their part, which I understand, but they first asked me to provide a personal guarantee, which I basically laughed at. Then they asked me to pay several months of rent up front, and I said that wasn't part of the deal we agreed to. So then they delivered the lease for me to sign, and it said they were holding my initial deposit even though that had never been discussed. I would owe them a deposit on the new space, but it would be smaller than the past deposit that they "decided to hold".

It's garbage like that that annoys me. We agreed on a base deal and I keep finding little bombs in the documents where they're screwing me over for more money that wasn't in the deal. And when I politely tell them it wasn't part of the deal, they say, "Well, it is now."

They initially even changed the space. We'd picked an office and agreed on a price, and when they delivered the proposal it was for a different space that was far less desirable. I had to say no and walk away before they folded and put the original space back on the table. They keep doing stuff like that, and it's just sleazy. It's not normal negotiating because they keep trying to blindside us and sneak stuff into documents.

I'm the customer and I want to walk away and tell them to fornicate themselves with a crystal toilet plunger. But the bottom line is that they're still offering me a cheap overall price for a very nice building, and that's the part where I keep having to separate my disdain for them from the product. Everyone in the building says the same thing about them - terrible people to deal with, but a great building at a good price that barely makes it worth the hassle.

[Rain Man]

sometimes those type people are like big bullies , when you punch them in the face they quit being assholes. But it's normally best to keep a good business like approach. Look at the bottom dollar and if you're winning then that's all that matters. Think Trump.

Oh, good point. I'll sign the lease, then not pay rent and declare bankruptcy after transferring all of the assets to a different corporation.

But yeah, I understand what you're saying.

Have a Trump kitten.

http://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2015/10/trump.jpg

[Rain Man]

Its a new lease I would demand the 2012 date to be released.

I guess I can threaten to walk away again. That seems to make them back down. I really wish I had a better option, though, like perhaps a reasonable discussion.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Rain, look at the big picture . If you are coming out good then move forward and quit worrying. I've seen so many times people that micro manage the little stuff and stress out over it all and at the end of the day it made no REAL difference. You can make 50 decisions that save you $100 and one decision that will make you $1000.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

LOL at the Trump kitty !

[srvy]

I guess I can threaten to walk away again. That seems to make them back down. I really wish I had a better option, though, like perhaps a reasonable discussion.

Well either way you moving to a new space whats a floor or two vs a few blocks or miles.

[Chiefshrink]

"They want to manage their risk." They're doing some buildout on the proposed new space, which is built into our lease. It involves hard costs on their part, which I understand, but they first asked me to provide a personal guarantee, which I basically laughed at. Then they asked me to pay several months of rent up front, and I said that wasn't part of the deal we agreed to. So then they delivered the lease for me to sign, and it said they were holding my initial deposit even though that had never been discussed. I would owe them a deposit on the new space, but it would be smaller than the past deposit that they "decided to hold".

It's garbage like that that annoys me. We agreed on a base deal and I keep finding little bombs in the documents where they're screwing me over for more money that wasn't in the deal. And when I politely tell them it wasn't part of the deal, they say, "Well, it is now."

They initially even changed the space. We'd picked an office and agreed on a price, and when they delivered the proposal it was for a different space that was far less desirable. I had to say no and walk away before they folded and put the original space back on the table. They keep doing stuff like that, and it's just sleazy. It's not normal negotiating because they keep trying to blindside us and sneak stuff into documents.

I'm the customer and I want to walk away and tell them to fornicate themselves with a crystal toilet plunger. But the bottom line is that they're still offering me a cheap overall price for a very nice building, and that's the part where I keep having to separate my disdain for them from the product. Everyone in the building says the same thing about them - terrible people to deal with, but a great building at a good price that barely makes it worth the hassle.

WOW !!:eek:

What is in bold is the fact they told on themselves in a lot of ways. They have folded once they will fold again. They like you as a tenant. If they didn't they wouldn't have folded. They are just doing the typical 'how far can we push this guy and continue to get $$ until he say's no" routine. Bullying as Hog put it. There is so much that is so illegal but they also know they can get away with it because most tenants know getting a lawyer is far too expensive in the long run.

Now with that being said, you my friend have all the leverage. Why ? Do you know how hard it is to find good consistent paying tenants that don't raise a peep ?? If I were in your shoes and knew I had the leverage I either put up with it and swallow my pride because you are getting a good deal or......

you can be totally candid/honest with them and tell them, "look we really like your building and like doing business here at this location and you gave us a really fair deal in the beginning but understand since then....l(list off all the complaints) and the common theme of those complaints which is they are always are moving the goal posts and their yes doesn't mean yes and their no doesn't mean no and you can't do business like this. And because of this you are in the process of looking elsewhere because of their lack of professionalism and integrity.

Now with all that being said, you are telling the truth and getting your feelings out on the table being true to maintaining your dignity, however, it's up to you whether you want to bluff with this statement or follow through. But dollars to donuts they will straighten up to some degree and quit pestering you for more $$ if you politely put your foot down on their neck as you force them to either start being professional with integrity or lose a great paying tenant. Bottom line: You are sending a clear message and they know it.

You have the leverage whether you realize it or not and they have folded once before and I assure you they will fold again.

[Iowanian]

I could call the for you and do the dirty word work. I have an excellent vernacular with which I am certain they are unfamiliar.

Also, I would hire a couple of hobos to poop in their yard...and maybe on their cars.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

You are coming out ahead, so it's all good.

[BlackHelicopters]

Is this the NSFW pussy thread?

[Fire Me Boy!]

I have no useful advice, but I've voted with you on many a candy and think our generally mutual exceptional taste in chocolate and candy should be rewarded. Can I have a kitten?

[Amnorix]

Yeah, the thing is that a 2012 expense stop means that we're covering four years of inflation right from the start. Essentially, it means that the landlord is paying utilities, cleaning, taxes, etc. at 2012 levels and we're responsible for the difference. That seems like a really bad deal on our part and doesn't seem like it's standard practice.

I love the building, but I can't stand the landlord. They're sneaky and petty and try to nickel and dime us, but they're also apparently not bright enough to do research since their base rates are under the market considerably. So they keep ripping us off, but even so it's still a good deal. I don't even know how to react to that. Do I fight the corruption or do I let them win and think they're taking advantage of me when I'm really the one winning? It's a bizarre situation.

Oh, and here's a kitten for you.

http://tabbycatsrockmyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/adorable-kitten.bmp


Yeah, that's a dick move. If it's a brand new lease, then you should be treated as a new tenant. Remember that they save considerable costs by not incurring any landlord improvements to get the space ready for a new tenant, and they obviously won't have any downtime with the space unoccupied.

I'd go to war over having the base year be the latest year. It's absolutely what a new tenant would get.

If you need a fresh coat of paint or new carpets, NOW is the time to argue for them.

Oh, and a lease option renewal without a currently fixed rent, or a rent that you can calculate (based on CPI or whatever) is completely worthless. It's a promise to talk later, and nothing more. Some people think they're valuable, but they are only valuable if they actually force someone to do something, instead of being so loosey-goosey they're worthless.

[Amnorix]

I guess I can threaten to walk away again. That seems to make them back down. I really wish I had a better option, though, like perhaps a reasonable discussion.


I can honestly tell you that some people are just dicks. Some people are just sleazebags. And too many people are both.

Unfortunately, I have to deal with this shit all the time.

[Amnorix]

WOW !!:eek:

What is in bold is the fact they told on themselves in a lot of ways. They have folded once they will fold again. They like you as a tenant. If they didn't they wouldn't have folded. They are just doing the typical 'how far can we push this guy and continue to get $$ until he say's no" routine. Bullying as Hog put it. There is so much that is so illegal but they also know they can get away with it because most tenants know getting a lawyer is far too expensive in the long run.

Now with that being said, you my friend have all the leverage. Why ? Do you know how hard it is to find good consistent paying tenants that don't raise a peep ?? If I were in your shoes and knew I had the leverage I either put up with it and swallow my pride because you are getting a good deal or......

you can be totally candid/honest with them and tell them, "look we really like your building and like doing business here at this location and you gave us a really fair deal in the beginning but understand since then....l(list off all the complaints) and the common theme of those complaints which is they are always are moving the goal posts and their yes doesn't mean yes and their no doesn't mean no and you can't do business like this. And because of this you are in the process of looking elsewhere because of their lack of professionalism and integrity.

Now with all that being said, you are telling the truth and getting your feelings out on the table being true to maintaining your dignity, however, it's up to you whether you want to bluff with this statement or follow through. But dollars to donuts they will straighten up to some degree and quit pestering you for more $$ if you politely put your foot down on their neck as you force them to either start being professional with integrity or lose a great paying tenant. Bottom line: You are sending a clear message and they know it.

You have the leverage whether you realize it or not and they have folded once before and I assure you they will fold again.



Jesus, I've never agreed with Chiefshrink so much in one thread. Actually, I may have agreed with him more in this one thread than with all his prior posts combined. :eek:

[Rain Man]

So I'm running the numbers, and I could move across the street to a very similar place, but it would cost me $15,000 a year more. I can fight them tooth and nail, and while every month's delay will cost me $2,500 due to some lease issues, I could possibly beat them down enough to make it worthwhile on a five-year lease. But that might cause one of my employees to have an aneurysm since she's responsible for planning the move.

Decisions, decisions. But yeah, I might just go the passive aggressive route of getting this stupid deal done and then spending the next five years with a goal of talking one prospective tenant out of signing with them, just for revenge.

[luv]

http://tabbycatsrockmyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/adorable-kitten.bmp

/thread

[Rain Man]

Yeah, that's a dick move. If it's a brand new lease, then you should be treated as a new tenant. Remember that they save considerable costs by not incurring any landlord improvements to get the space ready for a new tenant, and they obviously won't have any downtime with the space unoccupied.

I'd go to war over having the base year be the latest year. It's absolutely what a new tenant would get.

If you need a fresh coat of paint or new carpets, NOW is the time to argue for them.

Oh, and a lease option renewal without a currently fixed rent, or a rent that you can calculate (based on CPI or whatever) is completely worthless. It's a promise to talk later, and nothing more. Some people think they're valuable, but they are only valuable if they actually force someone to do something, instead of being so loosey-goosey they're worthless.

It actually gets a bit more complicated with the whole story, but it continues to work in our favor.

The whole story is that we approached the landlord a year ago and asked about downsizing. Half our company telecommutes now, so we have too much space and rent is expensive. Our win-win was that we would extend our lease that's expiring next year if they would get us out of the larger space and into smaller space. I wasn't surprised when they turned us down, because while it helped us a lot, they were banking that they could get us into a lease anyway and not lose the higher price that we're currently paying. I wasn't happy, but it wasn't unreasonable on their part to say no, so I didn't hold it against them.

Now enter another bigger tenant on a different floor. They're expanding and they want our space. So now the landlord can fill our space immediately and also extend our lease in a smaller space (that's still bigger than the expanding tenant's current space). Total win-win-win scenario here, good for everybody. But the building is now trying to turn it into a win-lose-lose so they can maximize revenue.

So both we and the other tenant have been wanting to move fast, because they need space and we save $2,500 every month if we move to a smaller space. For whatever reason, the building is moving at a glacial pace on this, and then they keep surprising us with weird costs and fees. I think they're trying to pressure us because they know that moving quickly is in our best interest.

We've decided that we're likely going to war, though. We have a lot of leverage, because if we sit in our current lease, they can't lock in the other tenant, and the other tenant is getting pretty ticked off. There's far more pressure on them than us, because I can just ride out my lease and cost them two tenants if I want to be ruthless about it.

So it's a risk management game. Every month of delay costs us $2,500 but if we can get them to the proper base rate it'll save us roughly $18,000 over five years. It's a risk, but I think we can force their hand, and frankly I'm in a foul enough mood to give it a try.

[Dragonocho]

I saw this solved on the Sopranos. Park a big yacht outside the building and blast music til they settle.

[Amnorix]

It actually gets a bit more complicated with the whole story, but it continues to work in our favor.

The whole story is that we approached the landlord a year ago and asked about downsizing. Half our company telecommutes now, so we have too much space and rent is expensive. Our win-win was that we would extend our lease that's expiring next year if they would get us out of the larger space and into smaller space. I wasn't surprised when they turned us down, because while it helped us a lot, they were banking that they could get us into a lease anyway and not lose the higher price that we're currently paying. I wasn't happy, but it wasn't unreasonable on their part to say no, so I didn't hold it against them.

Now enter another bigger tenant on a different floor. They're expanding and they want our space. So now the landlord can fill our space immediately and also extend our lease in a smaller space (that's still bigger than the expanding tenant's current space). Total win-win-win scenario here, good for everybody. But the building is now trying to turn it into a win-lose-lose so they can maximize revenue.

So both we and the other tenant have been wanting to move fast, because they need space and we save $2,500 every month if we move to a smaller space. For whatever reason, the building is moving at a glacial pace on this, and then they keep surprising us with weird costs and fees. I think they're trying to pressure us because they know that moving quickly is in our best interest.

We've decided that we're likely going to war, though. We have a lot of leverage, because if we sit in our current lease, they can't lock in the other tenant, and the other tenant is getting pretty ticked off. There's far more pressure on them than us, because I can just ride out my lease and cost them two tenants if I want to be ruthless about it.

So it's a risk management game. Every month of delay costs us $2,500 but if we can get them to the proper base rate it'll save us roughly $18,000 over five years. It's a risk, but I think we can force their hand, and frankly I'm in a foul enough mood to give it a try.



This can go for commercial negotiating too.

http://i.imgur.com/HEXg8Pc.jpg

[Amnorix]

More seriously, sounds like you have some real leverage here. Sounds like you just tell them you're moving to the smaller space for the agreed-upon rent, need the deposit to be based on the new, smaller, space, and that the base year is 2016, and it's all good. Otherwise you will ride out the lease and move on.

Your leverage isn't just you leaving, it's them risking TWO tenants, because the other tenant wants your space.


Though there is some risk on your side. Delay costs you $2,500/month, and then $15,000/year more if you move across the street.

Good luck with however you manage it!!

[Chiefshrink]

So both we and the other tenant have been wanting to move fast, because they need space and we save $2,500 every month if we move to a smaller space. For whatever reason, the building is moving at a glacial pace on this, and then they keep surprising us with weird costs and fees. I think they're trying to pressure us because they know that moving quickly is in our best interest.

We've decided that we're likely going to war, though. We have a lot of leverage, because if we sit in our current lease, they can't lock in the other tenant, and the other tenant is getting pretty ticked off. There's far more pressure on them than us, because I can just ride out my lease and cost them two tenants if I want to be ruthless about it.

It's a risk, but I think we can force their hand, and frankly I'm in a foul enough mood to give it a try.

Now that you mentioned all the details here, all day long everyday I would set on my original lease 'unless' of course they want to negotiate a new lease at a current proper base rate as you say. Wait it out for sure and call them on their cards by saying, "Hey, you don't have to do all this nickel and diming to pressure me to move if you just renegotiate a fair new contract because otherwise I will continue to set here on the original because I can afford it and I don't think you can afford to lose 2 tenants can you???:thumb: Say it casually but matter of fact and I assure you they will respect you even more and will not pester you again after they give you a new deal. Because you are nobody to be messed with any longer because you have exposed them and beat them at their own game. In certain scenarios it's okay to show your cards to push them to the table much quicker especially when you are holding damn near a royal flush and they have a pair a 2s' reminding them that they only have a pair of 2s'. This is what I would do.