Quarterbackery: Round 4, Heat 6

[Rain Man]

Okay, this is the bottom heat. The loser here is out of the tourney.

Tampa Bay

Trent Dilfer - 5 (Scales up to 6 years)
Vinny Testaverde - 5 (Scales up to 6 years)
Doug Williams - 5 (Scales up to 6 years)
Josh Freeman - 4 (Scales up to 5 years)
Brad Johnson - 3 (Scales up to 4 years)
Steve Deberg - 3 (Scales up to 4 years)
Jeff Garcia - 2 (Scales up to 3 years)
Craig Erickson - 2 (Scales up to 3 years)
Jameis Winston - 1 (and current starter)
Josh McCown - 1
Mike Glennon - 1
Bruce Gradkowski - 1
Chris Simms - 1
Brian Griese - 1
Shaun King - 1
Steve Young - 1
Jack Thompson - 1
Gary Huff - 1
Steve Spurrier - 1

The Buccaneers produced 4 pro bowlers (scales up to 5 in 50 years), one each by Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Garcia, and Jameis Winston.

Washington

Joe Theisman - 8 seasons
Billy Kilmer - 7
Mark Rypien - 5
Sonny Jurgenson - 5 (led team for 7 seasons, but only 5 since 1966)
Jason Campbell - 3
Patrick Ramsey - 3
Gus Frerotte - 3
Kirk Cousins - 2 (and current starter)
Robert Griffin - 2
Mark Brunell - 2
Brad Johnson - 2
Jay Schroeder - 2
Rex Grossman - 1
Donovan McNabb - 1
Tony Banks - 1
Trent Green - 1
Heath Shuler - 1
Doug Williams - 1

The Redskins produced 12 pro bowlers, led by Sonny Jurgensen with 3.

Kansas City

Len Dawson - 8 (led team for 12 seasons, but only 8 since 1966)
Bill Kenney - 7
Trent Green - 5
Mike Livingston - 5
Matt Cassel - 4
Steve Deberg - 4
Alex Smith - 3 (and current starter)
Elvis Grbac - 3
Damon Huard - 2
Steve Bono - 2
Joe Montana - 2
Steve Fuller - 2
Tyler Thigpen - 1
Rich Gannon - 1
Dave Krieg - 1

The Chiefs produced 14 pro bowlers during this span, led by Len Dawson with 5.

Cleveland

Brian Sipe - 8
Bernie Kosar - 7
Frank Ryan - 5 (led team for 6 seasons, buy only 5 in 1963 or later)
Tim Couch - 4
Mike Phipps - 4
Bill Nelson - 4
Vinny Testaverde - 3
Colt McCoy - 2
Derek Anderson - 2
Josh McCown - 1 (and current starter)
Bobby Hoyer - 1
Jason Campbell - 1
Brandon Weeden - 1
Brady Quinn - 1
Charlie Frye - 1
Trent Dilfer - 1
Jeff Garcia - 1
Kelly Holcomb - 1
Mike Tomczak - 1
Paul McDonald - 1

Cleveland produced 7 pro bowlers in that period, led by Frank Ryan with 3.

Chicago

Jay Cutler - 7 seasons (current starter)
Jim McMahon - 6
Jim Harbaugh - 4
Erik Kramer - 3
Bob Avellini - 3
Bobby Douglass - 3
Jack Concannon - 3
Kyle Orton - 2
Jim Miller - 2
Mike Tomczak - 2
Vince Evans - 2
Gary Huff - 2
Rex Grossman - 1
Brian Griese - 1
Chad Hutchinson - 1
Kordell Stewart - 1
Cade McNown - 1
Shane Matthews - 1
Dave Krieg - 1
Steve Walsh - 1
Mike Phipps - 1
Virgil Carter - 1
Rudy Bukich - 1 (led for 2 seasons, one before 1966)

The Bears quarterbacks produced one pro bowl, led by Jim McMahon with one.*

[Rain Man]

Okay, even the most diehard fan should pick KC here. They've got a Hall of Famer at the top of the list and Trent Green further down. Those may be the best two QB careers in this whole heat.

I was torn between Chicago and Tampa at the bottom, but probably have to go with Tampa. Cutler+McMahon > Dilfer+Testeverde+.6*Doug Williams.

[TLO]

Great googily moogily there's some poor QB play in this heat.

[Tombstone RJ]

Can you break down how KC has 14 pro bowls with Dawson only having 5 of those probowls? Smith has, what, 2? Green maybe has 1?

[Marmatag]

Cleveland is the ultimate shit show.

Washington has had the best in this group. The high points are equivalent if you go back into the 60s for each team, but after that, the Redskins have had a pretty decent signal caller in every decade, and they have the rings to show for it.

The Chiefs would be a pretty close second, however they have that tendency to get guys on the downslope of their career.

[wazu]

Can you break down how KC has 14 pro bowls with Dawson only having 5 of those probowls? Smith has, what, 2? Green maybe has 1?

Pretty sure Green has more than one. You're also forgetting Joe Montana and Matt "Pro Bowl" Cassel.

[Rain Man]

Okay, who wants to argue that Washington is better than Kansas City? It's an insane comparison.

8 years of Len Dawson versus 8 years of Joe Theisman - KC wins huge. Dawson is a Hall of Famer who really deserved it.

5 years of Trent Green versus 5 years of Sonny Jurgenson. Probably a draw.

7 years of Bill Kenney versus 7 years of Billy Kilmer. Probably a draw, but maybe a slight advantage to Washington.

What else does Washington offer? Rypien, Kirk Cousins, a good year of RGIII, and a few wind-down years by guys way past their prime.

What else does Kansas City offer? Two years of Montana. Check and mate. Add in three years of Alex Smith, 4 years of Deberg, and another good year here and there.


I think the Chiefs win the battle on the low end of the roster, and Dawson blows away Washington's best. This is no contest.

[Rain Man]

Can you break down how KC has 14 pro bowls with Dawson only having 5 of those probowls? Smith has, what, 2? Green maybe has 1?


Len Dawson had 5 pro bowls from 1966 on, and 2 before 1966 that I didn't count.

Mike Livingston had 1 pro bowl in 1969, when he kept the wheels on KC's Super Bowl season as a third string rookie when Dawson and Jackie Lee both were hurt.

Bill Kenney had 1 pro bowl in 1983 when he threw for over 4,000 yards. At the time, only three QBs had had 4,000 yard seasons: Dan Fouts, Joe Namath, and Brian Sipe.

Joe Montana had 1 pro bowl in 1993 when he led the Chiefs to the AFC championship game with a 4th down game-winning TD over the Steelers and a come from behind win over the league juggernaut Oilers.

Steve Bono made 1 pro bowl in 1995 when he and Derrick Thomas led the Chiefs to a 13-3 record despite the presence of Paul Hackett.

Elvis Grbac made 1 pro bowl in 2000 with a 4,000 yard season.

Trent Green made 2 pro bowls running one of the best offenses in NFL history, logging 2 4,000+ yard seasons.

Matt Cassel made 1 pro bowl in 2010, presumably because every other quarterback on earth was eaten by ligers.

Alex Smith made 1 pro bowl in 2013 after leading the Chiefs in a huge turnaround from 2-14 to 11-5.

[Al Bundy]

The only reason I didn't vote Tampa last was because Winston is already better than any QB the Bears have had in the last 50 years.

[Rain Man]

The only reason I didn't vote Tampa last was because Winston is already better than any QB the Bears have had in the last 50 years.

It was probably a mistake on their part to trade Steve Young.

[Al Bundy]

It was probably a mistake on their part to trade Steve Young.

That was Ray Perkins.. he was a fuckstick and is the worst head coach in the history of the Buccaneers.

[Rain Man]

That was Ray Perkins.. he was a ****stick and is the worst head coach in the history of the Buccaneers.

How would you rank the TB quarterbacks? In fairness, Young was pretty raw with the Bucs, but it still hurts.

I haven't seen Winston, so I'll hold him out, but I would probably rank the top three as:

Brad Johnson
Steve Deberg
Vinny Testaverde

Maybe Doug Williams was better, or Josh Freeman. I was surprised at Josh Freeman's fast departure and Mike Glennon's fast fall, because they seemed to have potential based on what I saw in highlights and the occasional game.

[Al Bundy]

How would you rank the TB quarterbacks? In fairness, Young was pretty raw with the Bucs, but it still hurts.

I haven't seen Winston, so I'll hold him out, but I would probably rank the top three as:

Brad Johnson
Steve Deberg
Vinny Testaverde

Maybe Doug Williams was better, or Josh Freeman. I was surprised at Josh Freeman's fast departure and Mike Glennon's fast fall, because they seemed to have potential based on what I saw in highlights and the occasional game.
I would rank them in this order
Brad Johnson
Jameis Winston
Doug Williams
Vinny Testaverde
Steve Deberg
Josh Freeman
Steve Young (he wasn't good with the Bucs, but I blame that on Leeman Bennett being clueless)
Trent Dilfer
Mike Glennon
Craig Erickson
the rest is complete crap.

[Rain Man]

I would rank them in this order
Brad Johnson
Jameis Winston
Doug Williams
Vinny Testaverde
Steve Deberg
Josh Freeman
Steve Young (he wasn't good with the Bucs, but I blame that on Leeman Bennett being clueless)
Trent Dilfer
Mike Glennon
Craig Erickson
the rest is complete crap.

Admittedly, I don't remember the differences between the Williams and Testaverde eras.

I liked Brad Johnson for both the Buccaneers and Vikings. But overall, it appears that we agree that it's a cringeworthy list. (And yet the Buccaneers have a Super Bowl win in the last 15 years. Sigh.)

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Washington.

Because fuck trying to prop-up KC's pathetic history with the position.

KC; you get the shit vote.

[Rain Man]

It's insane to vote for Washington in this thread, no matter how good your tastes in candy are. Washington hasn't put any player up who's close to Len Dawson's production and talent, and the same is probably true for Trent Green. KC is clearly better.

[Al Bundy]

It's insane to vote for Washington in this thread, no matter how good your tastes in candy are. Washington hasn't put any player up who's close to Len Dawson's production and talent, and the same is probably true for Trent Green. KC is clearly better.

I voted for the Chiefs because Len Dawson and Trent Green are far better than anything the Redskins have trotted out.

[Rain Man]

I voted for the Chiefs because Len Dawson and Trent Green are far better than anything the Redskins have trotted out.

You are a wise and thoughtful man.

[Gadzooks]

Mark Rypien won a SB. Do you know who his backup was at the time?
Stan "the man" Humphries. That's who. Enough said.:harumph:
https://media.giphy.com/media/qlwnHTKCPeak0/giphy.gif

[Rain Man]

Mark Rypien won a SB. Do you know who his backup was at the time?


Wow. I had no idea that Rypien was that good.

[Gadzooks]

Wow. I had no idea that Rypien was that good.

I know what you're doing but it's true. Rypien is underrated in a similar way to Ken Anderson. Sure he's not as good a player as Anderson was in his prime, and neither was Montana during his KC stint, but he suffered from a lack of charisma in the same way Anderson did.
He had prototypical size, decent stats and was able to beat the vaunted Bills defense in SB 26 AND won the MVP.

KC has Dawson. Anything after that is homerism. Theismann and Rypien are better than any combo from the Chiefs.

[Rain Man]

I know what you're doing but it's true. Rypien is underrated in a similar way to Ken Anderson. Sure he's not as good a player as Anderson was in his prime, and neither was Montana during his KC stint, but he suffered from a lack of charisma in the same way Anderson did.
He had prototypical size, decent stats and was able to beat the vaunted Bills defense in SB 26 AND won the MVP.

KC has Dawson. Anything after that is homerism. Theismann and Rypien are better than any combo from the Chiefs.

Dawson is woefully underrated. When he retired, he had one of the best career QB ratings in league history, and even today with massive inflation in the terrible circus that the league has become, he's in the top 35. Check this out.

http://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating-2014/

Look past the fact that anyone who can throw a watermelon has a high rating these days, and look at the best QBs from the 1960s and 1970s back when quarterbacks were real men. The top QBs through the 1970s were:

Roger Staubach
Sonny Jurgensen
Len Dawson
Ken Anderson
Bart Starr
Fran Tarkenton

Dawson is one of the best QBs in NFL history.

Now look at the list again and find Trent Green ranked #17 of all time, tied with Brett Favre.

The Chiefs have had two great QBs. If you want to count Jurgensen as great too, that's fine. But Jurgensen << Dawson and Theisman <<<<< Green.

[vailpass]

Dawson is woefully underrated. When he retired, he had one of the best career QB ratings in league history, and even today with massive inflation in the terrible circus that the league has become, he's in the top 35. Check this out.

http://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating-2014/

Look past the fact that anyone who can throw a watermelon has a high rating these days, and look at the best QBs from the 1960s and 1970s back when quarterbacks were real men. The top QBs through the 1970s were:

Roger Staubach
Sonny Jurgensen
Len Dawson
Ken Anderson
Bart Starr
Fran Tarkenton

Dawson is one of the best QBs in NFL history.

Now look at the list again and find Trent Green ranked #17 of all time, tied with Brett Favre.

The Chiefs have had two great QBs. If you want to count Jurgensen as great too, that's fine. But Jurgensen << Dawson and Theisman <<<<< Green.

Tent=Favre? Trent was nice but I'm not sure about that one.

[Rain Man]

Tent=Favre? Trent was nice but I'm not sure about that one.

Favre played longer at the same level and never got injured, so I'll give him that. Favre was even the QB of the #1 offense in the NFL once in terms of points, even though his offenses never led the league in terms of yards.

On the other hand, Trent was the QB of the #1 offense in the NFL twice in terms of points, and in two other years he was the QB of the #1 offense in terms of yards.

But I've got nothing against Favre. He was a fine QB, even if his offenses couldn't match Trent's production.

[vailpass]

Favre played longer at the same level and never got injured, so I'll give him that. Favre was even the QB of the #1 offense in the NFL once in terms of points, even though his offenses never led the league in terms of yards.

On the other hand, Trent was the QB of the #1 offense in the NFL twice in terms of points, and in two other years he was the QB of the #1 offense in terms of yards.

But I've got nothing against Favre. He was a fine QB, even if his offenses couldn't match Trent's production.

Fair enough. Even excluding SB win i see Brett as more prolific but that's just mho.

[Rain Man]

Fair enough. Even excluding SB win i see Brett as more prolific but that's just mho.

Over the course of their career, I think Favre is the winner. I'll admit that.

[Gadzooks]

Dawson is woefully underrated. When he retired, he had one of the best career QB ratings in league history, and even today with massive inflation in the terrible circus that the league has become, he's in the top 35. Check this out.

http://www.profootballhof.com/all-time-passer-rating-2014/

Look past the fact that anyone who can throw a watermelon has a high rating these days, and look at the best QBs from the 1960s and 1970s back when quarterbacks were real men. The top QBs through the 1970s were:

Roger Staubach
Sonny Jurgensen
Len Dawson
Ken Anderson
Bart Starr
Fran Tarkenton

Dawson is one of the best QBs in NFL history.

Now look at the list again and find Trent Green ranked #17 of all time, tied with Brett Favre.

The Chiefs have had two great QBs. If you want to count Jurgensen as great too, that's fine. But Jurgensen << Dawson and Theisman <<<<< Green.

Okay, You've admitted Sonny Jurgenson as a great QB from the 60-70's, plus Joe Thiesmann and Mark Rypien vs. Len Dawson, Trent Green and who?

According to your link, Jeff Garcia is a better QB than Dan Marino.

I believe the Chargers are out of the race in Quarterbackery despite Rivers being #4 on the list and having almost 0 pass protection for the past 2 years.

At this point you're pushing a Chiefs agenda and I completely understand, I made this post/thread Chargers-centric by mentioning both Rivers and Humphries.

The results of this poll will indicate the leanings of the KC fans. If they feel good about their current direction at QB they'll ignore the fact the WAS has had the better QBs. If they feel bad WAS will win.

Facts will not help you in your agenda. Feelings are what homers base their choices on. You should post a clip of puppies and kittens. That may get the Chiefs over the top.

[Rain Man]

Okay, You've admitted Sonny Jurgenson as a great QB from the 60-70's, plus Joe Thiesmann and Mark Rypien vs. Len Dawson, Trent Green and who?

According to your link, Jeff Garcia is a better QB than Dan Marino.

I believe the Chargers are out of the race in Quarterbackery despite Rivers being #4 on the list and having almost 0 pass protection for the past 2 years.

At this point you're pushing a Chiefs agenda and I completely understand, I made this post/thread Chargers-centric by mentioning both Rivers and Humphries.

The results of this poll will indicate the leanings of the KC fans. If they feel good about their current direction at QB they'll ignore the fact the WAS has had the better QBs. If they feel bad WAS will win.

Facts will not help you in your agenda. Feelings are what homers base their choices on. You should post a clip of puppies and kittens. That may get the Chiefs over the top.

I'm not pushing a Chiefs agenda at all, and in fact I'm interested to see how it turns out. They're going to be far from the top of the list, but in fairness they shouldn't be near the bottom. If they end up in the bottom half dozen, I think it'll reflect a couple of things:

- a tougher grading curve for Chiefs QBs than for other teams' QBs.
- possibly a bias toward the more recent end of the 50-year period, which is understandable. The Chiefs' all-time great QB was at the early end, and I bet that hurts their cause.

I'll be interested to see where the Chargers end up. All in all, I think you may actually have the best 50-year history in the AFC West, and should be easily in the top half. In a completely objective ranking, the Chargers might even sneak into the top ten.

[Gadzooks]

I'm not pushing a Chiefs agenda at all, and in fact I'm interested to see how it turns out. They're going to be far from the top of the list, but in fairness they shouldn't be near the bottom. If they end up in the bottom half dozen, I think it'll reflect a couple of things:

- a tougher grading curve for Chiefs QBs than for other teams' QBs.
- possibly a bias toward the more recent end of the 50-year period, which is understandable. The Chiefs' all-time great QB was at the early end, and I bet that hurts their cause.

I'll be interested to see where the Chargers end up. All in all, I think you may actually have the best 50-year history in the AFC West, and should be easily in the top half. In a completely objective ranking, the Chargers might even sneak into the top ten.

I thought the Chargers were knocked out in the first round by Pittsburgh (after KC defeated the mighty Jaguars), and I've boycotted the threads until very recently. Good luck with your findings and I will try to be more cooperative with your efforts in the future.