Attorneys are crooks

[Holladay]

I had my G-moms' trust amended to add one more trustee. They had to add one name and another signature line to the old trust. They charged me 2 hours billing at $195/hr (Att time) and $75/hr (Legal Asst time). Thus a total of $270 for 2 hours.

They had the original doc so not create a brand new doc, just add the name.

Man I am in the wrong business. My assistant could have done that in 3 min?

I am disputing the charges. I haven't paid yet. Jees, no wonder I shouldn't use an attorney for my up coming divorce (cross thread ref)

[wazu]

Your dispute will require a $270 deposit for consideration.

[DaFace]

Hate to tell you this, but those rates are pretty reasonable for lawyers.

[lewdog]

That's absolutely normal. Get an advanced degree that costs a lot of money and people will pay you for it.

[Simply Red]

Hate to tell you this, but those rates are pretty reasonable for lawyers.

this

[DaneMcCloud]

Hate to tell you this, but those rates are pretty reasonable for lawyers.

That's cheap.

My entertainment lawyer is $575 an hour.

Hell, my CPA is $250 an hour.

[Mr. Laz]

Lawyers,Doctors,Dentists,Politicians

The worse things go for you, the more money they make.


They all get paid regardless of the job they do.

[Bugeater]

Your math doesn't add up. 2hrs @ $195/hr + $75 asst fee should be $465. If they only billed you for $270 I'd stfu and pay it.

But yeah, they're not cheap. We're spending around $3000 up front to set our trust up, but we won't be charged for any changes we make in the future.

[ClevelandBronco]

That's cheap.

My entertainment lawyer is $575 an hour.

Hell, my CPA is $250 an hour.

Good strategy to pay those folks enough to make embezzling from you unattractive.

[DaneMcCloud]

Good strategy to pay those folks enough to make embezzling from you unattractive.

LMAO

[ClevelandBronco]

Your math doesn't add up. 2hrs @ $195/hr + $75 asst fee should be $465. If they only billed you for $270 I'd stfu and pay it.

But yeah, they're not cheap. We're spending around $3000 up front to set our trust up, but we won't be charged for any changes we make in the future.

If I were you I'd call with daily changes.

[TinyEvel]

That's cheap.

My entertainment lawyer is $575 an hour.

Hell, my CPA is $250 an hour.

I'll do it for $525 per hour

[GloryDayz]

Well if you ever need to add another name, tell that kid that it's too late to get in on the action.

[ChiefsCountry]

32 year old ChiefsCountry would tell 18 year old ChiefsCountry to be a lawyer.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'll do it for $525 per hour

Hired!

[DaFace]

32 year old ChiefsCountry would tell 18 year old ChiefsCountry to be a lawyer.

Eh, it's lucrative once you're established, but there's been a pretty big surplus of lawyers coming out of school in the past decade. Unless you're lucky, you're looking at shit pay and long hours as you work your way up the totem pole.

It's a pretty solid way of ensuring that EVENTUALLY you'll be wealthy if you can make it through the shitty parts.

[DaneMcCloud]

Eh, it's lucrative once you're established, but there's been a pretty big surplus of lawyers coming out of school in the past decade. Unless you're lucky, you're looking at shit pay and long hours as you work your way up the totem pole.

It's a pretty solid way of ensuring that EVENTUALLY you'll be wealthy if you can make it through the shitty parts.

It depends on the area of law.

All of my entertainment lawyer friends that I came up with in the late 90's are VP's all over town, from Disney to Universal and everything in between.

Also, also the real estate lawyers are ridiculously successful.

[alpha_omega]

32 year old ChiefsCountry would tell 18 year old ChiefsCountry to be a lawyer.

Never too late. Well, maybe not never, but it's still doable

[Bugeater]

If I were you I'd call with daily changes.
That's a solid idea. I'm going to call him right now!

[DaneMcCloud]

That's a solid idea. I'm going to call him right now!

We set up our trust in 2008, just before our first was born. We were told that small changes, like the addition of more children or the changing of potential guardians could be done at no charge.

Four years later, we had another child and one change to potential guardianship.

The bill was $375 dollars.

[Buehler445]

You aren't getting the D.

I can give you some cases of some people that got the D but it isn't you.

[DaFace]

It depends on the area of law.

All of my entertainment lawyer friends that I came up with in the late 90's are VP's all over town, from Disney to Universal and everything in between.

Also, also the real estate lawyers are ridiculously successful.

Past decade = 2006-2016. The bubble really seemed to hit around 2005-2010.

http://www.economicmodeling.com/2011/06/22/new-lawyers-glutting-the-market-in-all-but-3-states/

[DaneMcCloud]

Past decade = 2006-2016. The bubble really seemed to hit around 2005-2010.

I still believe that niche law is more lucrative than being an ambulance chaser or working for the DA.

[go bo]

I still believe that niche law is more lucrative than being an ambulance chaser or working for the DA.

absolutely!!!

well, depending on the niche, i suppose...:hmmm:

[Holladay]

Just sucks, my G-mom is on her death bed..99yrs old. I don't have to pay it, her trust will and she has the money, but just seems crazy.

Nice inputs. I am in the financial world and can land some stupid numbers as well. But not just 2 typed lines.

[BlackHelicopters]

Dentists, in particular, are a rip off.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

So it was really 1HR + fee. Which I'm assuming is the minimum increment the will charge.

Did they have to file it with the court as well?

[displacedinMN]

I emailed mine and the answer cost me 175.

[vailpass]

Have your assistant do it and see how much you're willing to pay when you find out it wasn't done correctly.

[Amnorix]

Eh, it's lucrative once you're established, but there's been a pretty big surplus of lawyers coming out of school in the past decade. Unless you're lucky, you're looking at shit pay and long hours as you work your way up the totem pole.

It's a pretty solid way of ensuring that EVENTUALLY you'll be wealthy if you can make it through the shitty parts.


Categorically incorrect due to MASSIVE oversupply by law schools. WAY too many kids think this and are smart and "willing to do the work", but there isn't enough work to be done.

So they have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of debt, have given up an addition three years of work, but are making mediocre salaries in far too many cases.

Note this is a bit of a generalization. If you went to Harvard Law, you should be good. if you got TOP grades at a good law school, you should be all set. If you got middling grades at a middling law school, or whatever, you could easily be seriously fucked.

[vailpass]

Categorically incorrect due to MASSIVE oversupply by law schools. WAY too many kids think this and are smart and "willing to do the work", but there isn't enough work to be done.

So they have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of debt, have given up an addition three years of work, but are making mediocre salaries in far too many cases.

Note this is a bit of a generalization. If you went to Harvard Law, you should be good. if you got TOP grades at a good law school, you should be all set. If you got middling grades at a middling law school, or whatever, you could easily be seriously ****ed.

^^^
I know a metric shit ton of people with law degrees; half of them don't pratice.

[ChiefaRoo]

Lawyers? Don't talk to them unless you want to learn about the partial hour billing policy. They will stick you and then listen when you explain your blood to them and then bill you again.

[Amnorix]

I had my G-moms' trust amended to add one more trustee. They had to add one name and another signature line to the old trust. They charged me 2 hours billing at $195/hr (Att time) and $75/hr (Legal Asst time). Thus a total of $270 for 2 hours.

They had the original doc so not create a brand new doc, just add the name.

Man I am in the wrong business. My assistant could have done that in 3 min?

I am disputing the charges. I haven't paid yet. Jees, no wonder I shouldn't use an attorney for my up coming divorce (cross thread ref)


Don't use a lawyer and pray you get it right, or fuck it up, and pay thousands and have family members at each other's throats for the rest of their lives.

Up to you.

I see this shit all the time. I clean up more fucking messes by people who think they can save a few bucks and then end up with a multiple thousands dollar problem.

[Amnorix]

^^^
I know a metric shit ton of people with law degrees; half of them don't pratice.

Yes. Between the stress of the job and other issues, and/or the limited market, many many lawyers have degrees that are slightly better than wallpaper.

Not that a law degree can't help open another avenue for your career, but it's a damn expensive one to get, and unnecessary in too many instances.

[Amnorix]

Lawyers? Don't talk to them unless you want to learn about the partial hour billing policy. They will stick you and then listen when you explain your blood to them and then bill you again.


We sell our time. I can't sell pens, or paper, or a new tire. We sell our time, which gets you our legal and business knowledge and experience.

Or don't. And take the risk of fucking it all up and having a bigger/worse problem. It's up to you.

[ptlyon]

Kill all the lawyers. (sorry if Q)

[O.city]

Dentists, in particular, are a rip off.

Correct.

Apparently everything is our fault

[ChiefaRoo]

We sell our time. I can't sell pens, or paper, or a new tire. We sell our time, which gets you our legal and business knowledge and experience.

Or don't. And take the risk of ****ing it all up and having a bigger/worse problem. It's up to you.

You're profession is full of mental masturbation, it slow walks legal answers and is not very efficient. It's the only private sector profession I can think of where lack of efficiency makes you more money.

You're probably charging some poor bastard right now while your on the Planet. "Umm I researched that property statute Joe, the answer is maybe" "Here's your bill for $500"

[Amnorix]

Kill all the lawyers. (sorry if Q)


The full quote by Shakespeare is actually that you should kill all the lawyers first if you want to ensure chaos and tyranny.


It'd be like some famous writer saying "if you want to watch a nuclear power plant meltdown, kill all the engineers!" and people turning that into a "yeah, even [that famous guy] said we should kill all the engineers!!"

[Amnorix]

You're profession is full of mental masturbation, it slow walks legal answers and is not very efficient. It's the only private sector profession I can think of where lack of efficiency makes you more money.

You're probably charging some poor bastard right now while your on the Planet.

Simple, then don't use lawyers. There's literally nothing you can't do yourself, from writing a will to defending your drunk driving charge to handling a divorce to buying real estate (though you'd have to pay for the bank's lawyer if you're using a bank to get a mortgage).

Good luck!

[ChiefaRoo]

Simple, then don't use lawyers. There's literally nothing you can't do yourself, from writing a will to defending your drunk driving charge to handling a divorce to buying real estate (though you'd have to pay for the bank's lawyer if you're using a bank to get a mortgage).

Good luck!

Go to your safe space Chowda. Go frivolously bill some old lady. You'll feel better

[vailpass]

Simple, then don't use lawyers. There's literally nothing you can't do yourself, from writing a will to defending your drunk driving charge to handling a divorce to buying real estate (though you'd have to pay for the bank's lawyer if you're using a bank to get a mortgage).

Good luck!

Uh, no.

[ptlyon]

The full quote by Shakespeare is actually that you should kill all the lawyers first if you want to ensure chaos and tyranny.


It'd be like some famous writer saying "if you want to watch a nuclear power plant meltdown, kill all the engineers!" and people turning that into a "yeah, even [that famous guy] said we should kill all the engineers!!"

What I was quoting was on TV somewhere, that's all I remember. I think it was a woman who was reciting a poem she wrote, but don't really remember. Meant it as satire.

But thanks for the lesson :thumb:

[Amnorix]

My best dumbass client crying poor story:

We negotiated the sale of this guy's business. He owned it and it made good money but he was reaching retirement age and wanted to slow down. Nice guy but cheap fuck.

He was selling to a friend who had the same business in antoher city. They weren't competitors, and had known each other for years. The guy would buy it from him, and my guy would continue on as president, with less pressure/stress.

Part of the deal included an earn-out, which (in VERY simple terms) is a way of sharing future profits if the business does better than expected (or perhaps as good as the seller expects, but better than the buyer fears). We negotiated the earn-out hard. They are complicated, and you want very specific metrics and easily proven numbers, because they often lead to lawsuits down the road. There's a famous quote by a Delaware judge that "Earn-outs all too often transform current disagreements over price into future litigation over outcome."

Meanwhile our guy is BITCHING ENDLESSLY over the time/cost of the deal. "He's a great guy and a great friend. We should be doing this on a handshake." etc. etc. etc. When the final bill comes the moaning and groaning over the bill was ridiculous.

Two or three years later they are in dispute over the earn-out. We speak with the buyer's lawyer and they basically immediately cave. The buyer didn't look at the agreement to refresh his memory and was clearly dead meat. The dick was trying to fuck our guy. Best part is that THE AMOUNT IN DISPUTE EXCEEDED OUR ENTIRE LEGAL BILL FOR THE TRANSACTION.

So basically we saved our dumbass client from himself.

And that is the kind of shit we deal with all the damn time. Either that or people coming to us to save their ass NOW because they didn't hire a lawyer THEN so it's all fucked up, and they will STILL cry over legal fees.

Soooo tiresome.

[DJ's left nut]

32 year old ChiefsCountry would tell 18 year old ChiefsCountry to be a lawyer.

35 year old DJ would tell 18 yr old DJ to go into medicine.

Too many attorneys, not enough distinction and simply not enough 'good' clients for the supply.

And when there aren't good clients to be had, you'll take on bad clients to keep the lights on. In the alternative, you become a boutique practice so you can get yourself a handful of large national clients that pay their bills (that's pretty much the only way an attorney gets to retire anymore).

Or you get on at a big firm, work away your 20s and early 30s to make partner. If you manage it, you're set for life. If you don't, you're starting all over again with an uphill climb ahead of you.

I got lucky and pulled off the boutique firm with some large national clients route but I'm only ever a few bad outcomes or just flat-ass bad luck away from losing everything we've spent a decade building. It's a stressful gig.

[scho63]

My escort charges me $400 an hour. You got off cheap

[Amnorix]

35 year old DJ would tell 18 yr old DJ to go into medicine.

Too many attorneys, not enough distinction and simply not enough 'good' clients for the supply.

And when there aren't good clients to be had, you'll take on bad clients to keep the lights on. In the alternative, you become a boutique practice so you can get yourself a handful of large national clients that pay their bills (that's pretty much the only way an attorney gets to retire anymore).

Or you get on at a big firm, work away your 20s and early 30s to make partner. If you manage it, you're set for life. If you don't, you're starting all over again with an uphill climb ahead of you.

I got lucky and pulled off the boutique firm with some large national clients route but I'm only ever a few bad outcomes or just flat-ass bad luck away from losing everything we've spent a decade building. It's a stressful gig.


Yeah.

Here's the other thing that is happening due to oversupply of lawyers -- alot of truly awful lawyering. Bad cases, and bad lawyers. I had a dentist client get sued for the most ridiculous thing you ever saw. No lawyer should ever have taken the case, bu the probably got paid some kind of flat fee plus contingency and so he sued my guy for something that was truly absurd. Disgusting.

[O.city]

Yeah.

Here's the other thing that is happening due to oversupply of lawyers -- alot of truly awful lawyering. Bad cases, and bad lawyers. I had a dentist client get sued for the most ridiculous thing you ever saw. No lawyer should ever have taken the case, bu the probably got paid some kind of flat fee plus contingency and so he sued my guy for something that was truly absurd. Disgusting.

I can't imagine he won though?

[DJ's left nut]

I had my G-moms' trust amended to add one more trustee. They had to add one name and another signature line to the old trust. They charged me 2 hours billing at $195/hr (Att time) and $75/hr (Legal Asst time). Thus a total of $270 for 2 hours.

They had the original doc so not create a brand new doc, just add the name.

Man I am in the wrong business. My assistant could have done that in 3 min?

I am disputing the charges. I haven't paid yet. Jees, no wonder I shouldn't use an attorney for my up coming divorce (cross thread ref)

Oh, as to this bit of idiotic bitching, the reason you got charged a whopping $270 dollars (jesus...less than it costs to patch a muffler) is you can hold that lawyers balls to the bandsaw in 10 years if your grandma dies and shit goes sideways with the document.

The $270 you paid is essentially insurance. Had you done it yourself or had your assistant do it and they did it poorly, you'd be up shits creek with a dead grandma an no way to actually do anything to fix the problem. Once the person dies, that trust is generally locked into place.

But with the lawyer now on the hook, if it goes bad, there's always a malpractice action and his malpractice insurance will end up stepping in for him.

That's the problem with anything related to wills and trusts - there's no way to know where it may go wrong and by the time you find out, the person's already dead and the damage is done; there's no way to mitigate. So when a lawyer does it for you, he isn't going to just 'change a line' because if the folks that originally drafted it fucked something up, he was still the last set of eyes to see it so he'd be responsible for any fuckups of the prior attorney. As a consequence, he had to review that entire document and make sure everything in it was in order.

Because any cunt that will bitch about a $270 bill for amending a legally binding document is the same kind of cunt that will blame that second attorney for the first attorneys fuckup. "You only had to change one line!" would turn into "Well why didn't you review the whole thing and tell me it was wrong?!" the moment things go sideways.

[ChiefaRoo]

Escort = Lawyer in many many ways.

[ptlyon]

My escort charges me $400 an hour. You got off cheap

Does that include nachos?

[Amnorix]

I can't imagine he won though?


He did not. My poor client however had to spend time, money and emotional agitation over it all.

And I can't begin to tell you how bad the case was. It was just awful. Two squabbling women employees who hate each other, so he fires the one who has less experience, less pay, less training, and worked for him for a shorter period of time than the other woman, and ends up getting sued for racial discrimination.

The terminated employee was white, the dentist was white, and the other employee that he did not fire was Hispanic, so the argument was that the firing was racially motivated (reverse discrimination if you will). They probably hoped for a quick hit of af ew thousand bucks, but my guy was not going to pay no matter what. Ended up paying far more to defend than a quick settlement would have been.

Big f'n problem in our legal system.

[Fire Me Boy!]

My escort charges me $400 an hour. You got off cheap

You're getting robbed. I know a lady who'll do it all for $50 and some nachos.

[Mr. Kotter]

Yup. Pretty much...

[Fire Me Boy!]

Does that include nachos?

:cuss:

[Amnorix]

Yup. Pretty much...



You know what lawyers don't get? Lifetime jobs, 12 weeks of vacation a year, another 50 days off during the year, nearly every night off, every weekend off without fail, automatic seniority pay increases, automatic inflation pay increases, a pension for the rest of their life when they retire, and 6 hour work days.



[sits back to watch head explode]

[ptlyon]

:cuss:

ROFL

[ptlyon]

You know what lawyers don't get? Lifetime jobs, 12 weeks of vacation a year, another 50 days off during the year, nearly every night off, every weekend off without fail, automatic seniority pay increases, automatic inflation pay increases, a pension for the rest of their life when they retire, and 6 hour work days.



[sits back to watch head explode]

That's your choice

[Amnorix]

That's your choice


Yes. More importantly a significant portion of what I posted isn't true for teachers, though many think it is.

[Mr. Kotter]

You know what lawyers don't get? Lifetime jobs, 12 weeks of vacation a year, another 50 days off during the year, nearly every night off, every weekend off without fail, automatic seniority pay increases, automatic inflation pay increases, a pension for the rest of their life when they retire, and 6 hour work days.



[sits back to watch head explode]

Yeah, yeah...there are definite trade-offs, but I have several friends who are lawyers and I got NOTHING on them; except I can sleep at night. :)

[DaneMcCloud]

Note this is a bit of a generalization. If you went to Harvard Law, you should be good. if you got TOP grades at a good law school, you should be all set. If you got middling grades at a middling law school, or whatever, you could easily be seriously fucked.

All of the lawyers that I know personally are extremely passionate about their jobs but I concede that it's different because most, if not all, are "failed" musicians that practice law because of their personal connection to music and protection of composers, artists, etc.

I'm sure it would be quite different without that kind of passion.

That said, I do know a few people that received their law degrees but opted not to take the bar and never became lawyers but have told me that they're glad they went to law school because it helped further their careers in Silicon Valley tech.

[ChiefsCountry]

Eh, it's lucrative once you're established, but there's been a pretty big surplus of lawyers coming out of school in the past decade. Unless you're lucky, you're looking at shit pay and long hours as you work your way up the totem pole.

It's a pretty solid way of ensuring that EVENTUALLY you'll be wealthy if you can make it through the shitty parts.

Never too late. Well, maybe not never, but it's still doable

I had/still have some really good connections in the field. Potentially getting a job I think I would have been fine. Lot of the grunt work shit would have been expected.

I just read contracts and agreements all day. Drawing them up and knowing the legal reasoning I know I could really get into. Real estate and contract law is what I would have gotten into. It's something I enjoy now and wish my younger self would have considered it. I was too focused then on business management and marketing.

[Holladay]

A lot of good advice with different options. I will pay the bill. Just seems funny. The original trust document cost $500. That was 20 yrs ago though. Small town attorney, friend of the family.

[cosmo20002]

I had my G-moms' trust amended to add one more trustee. They had to add one name and another signature line to the old trust. They charged me 2 hours billing at $195/hr (Att time) and $75/hr (Legal Asst time). Thus a total of $270 for 2 hours.

They had the original doc so not create a brand new doc, just add the name.

Man I am in the wrong business. My assistant could have done that in 3 min?

I am disputing the charges. I haven't paid yet. Jees, no wonder I shouldn't use an attorney for my up coming divorce (cross thread ref)

I read all the posts in the thread and many are just justifying the hourly rate and avoiding the issue.

If what you describe is true--and there is no minimum charge you agreed to in writing--you were overcharged and you should question the bill.
Just because 195/hour and 75/hour might be a reasonable rate, that doesn't mean each of them actually spent an hour (two hours total) on what is--at the very most--a 30-minute total task.

This attorney probably is in the office 9 hours a day yet generates 18 hours of billing a day for him and another 18 for the assistant.

[DaFace]

I read all the posts in the thread and many are just justifying the hourly rate and avoiding the issue.

If what you describe is true--and there is no minimum charge you agreed to in writing--you were overcharged and you should question the bill.
Just because 195/hour and 75/hour might be a reasonable rate, that doesn't mean each of them actually spent an hour (two hours total) on what is--at the very most--a 30-minute total task.

This attorney probably is in the office 9 hours a day yet generates 18 hours of billing a day for him and another 18 for the assistant.

I wouldn't blame him for asking about the number of hours billed, but your assumption that it was a complete ripoff is almost undoubtedly untrue. Most lawyers try to hit around 2,000 billable hours per year, which is right in line with the number of hours in a typical 40-hour work schedule. In fact, most lawyers I've known work insane hours, so that would indicate that they're actually billing quite a bit LESS time than they actually spend on the job.

In this particular case, I think it's important to recognize that there was a reason the lawyer was hired in the first place. Presumably the lawyer wasn't involved for the manual labor of typing a name on a piece of paper, so there was likely time involved in reviewing the existing document to make sure that everything was in good shape and that adding an extra name wouldn't require more extensive revisions. Would that take an hour of the lawyer's time and an hour of an assistant? Perhaps not, but I don't think we can definitely say that. Legal stuff is complicated and takes time. That's why we have lawyers.

[DJ's left nut]

I wouldn't blame him for asking about the number of hours billed, but your assumption that it was a complete ripoff is almost undoubtedly untrue. Most lawyers try to hit around 2,000 billable hours per year, which is right in line with the number of hours in a typical 40-hour work schedule. In fact, most lawyers I've known work insane hours, so that would indicate that they're actually billing quite a bit LESS time than they actually spend on the job.

In this particular case, I think it's important to recognize that there was a reason the lawyer was hired in the first place. Presumably the lawyer wasn't involved for the manual labor of typing a name on a piece of paper, so there was likely time involved in reviewing the existing document to make sure that everything was in good shape and that adding an extra name wouldn't require more extensive revisions. Would that take an hour of the lawyer's time and an hour of an assistant? Perhaps not, but I don't think we can definitely say that. Legal stuff is complicated and takes time. That's why we have lawyers.

Cosmo, as ever, knows fuck-all about what he's running his mouth about yet is ever strident in offering his 'wisdom'.

The average lawyer works 3 hours for every 2 he bills. General research is not billable towards a specific file, nor are efforts to bring you up to a level that would put you par with an average attorney in that field. If you're extremely efficient, you can manage 3 billable hours for every 4. For the average attorney, if you're expected to bill 2,000-2,300 hours in a given year (pretty standard stuff), you're probably checking in around 3,000 hours in the office

Besides, I'm also willing to bet there was some discussion as to the attorneys fee structure but again, dipshit Cosmo just automatically assumes that someone that failed to listen to or understand what they were told were probably ripped off and being cheated instead.

Because...Cosmo.

[cosmo20002]

I wouldn't blame him for asking about the number of hours billed, but your assumption that it was a complete ripoff is almost undoubtedly untrue. Most lawyers try to hit around 2,000 billable hours per year, which is right in line with the number of hours in a typical 40-hour work schedule. In fact, most lawyers I've known work insane hours, so that would indicate that they're actually billing quite a bit LESS time than they actually spend on the job.

In this particular case, I think it's important to recognize that there was a reason the lawyer was hired in the first place. Presumably the lawyer wasn't involved for the manual labor of typing a name on a piece of paper, so there was likely time involved in reviewing the existing document to make sure that everything was in good shape and that adding an extra name wouldn't require more extensive revisions. Would that take an hour of the lawyer's time and an hour of an assistant? Perhaps not, but I don't think we can definitely say that. Legal stuff is complicated and takes time. That's why we have lawyers.

All of that is fine and dandy. I didn't question his lawyer's rate or the value of a lawyer in general. I'm only questioning the billing of 2 hours for a 15-minute task that could be done by a competent secretary. "Legal stuff" can be complicated, but this wasn't. Two hours for that--assuming the poster described it accurately--is outrageous.

[scho63]

Escort = Lawyer in many many ways.

You get screwed by both but the escorts are betting looking! :D

Does that include nachos?

They cost extra!

[cosmo20002]

Cosmo, as ever, knows ****-all about what he's running his mouth about yet is ever strident in offering his 'wisdom'.

The average lawyer works 3 hours for every 2 he bills. General research is not billable towards a specific file, nor are efforts to bring you up to a level that would put you par with an average attorney in that field. If you're extremely efficient, you can manage 3 billable hours for every 4. For the average attorney, if you're expected to bill 2,000-2,300 hours in a given year (pretty standard stuff), you're probably checking in around 3,000 hours in the office

Besides, I'm also willing to bet there was some discussion as to the attorneys fee structure but again, dipshit Cosmo just automatically assumes that someone that failed to listen to or understand what they were told were probably ripped off and being cheated instead.

Because...Cosmo.

Blah blah...the guy billed two hours for a 15-minute task. 30 if we're really, really generous.

What you've written above is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. In my post, I allowed for the possibility that there was a written agreement as to fees and a minimum for any work done.
You know no more than I do about the situation, asshole. However, my take that the guy was overcharged is a lot more reasonable.

[cosmo20002]

Besides, I'm also willing to bet there was some discussion as to the attorneys fee structure but again, dipshit Cosmo just automatically assumes that someone that failed to listen to or understand what they were told were probably ripped off and being cheated instead.

Because...Cosmo.

Also, fuckface, if there was a "fee structure" that included a flat or minimum fee for this kind of work, the attorney shouldn't have billed it as "2 hours."
You bill for "two hours," you better have spent at least 2 hours on it. Otherwise, you're looking at an ethics violation, but I'm sure you already knew that. Or probably not.

[Buehler445]

Categorically incorrect due to MASSIVE oversupply by law schools. WAY too many kids think this and are smart and "willing to do the work", but there isn't enough work to be done.

So they have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of debt, have given up an addition three years of work, but are making mediocre salaries in far too many cases.

Note this is a bit of a generalization. If you went to Harvard Law, you should be good. if you got TOP grades at a good law school, you should be all set. If you got middling grades at a middling law school, or whatever, you could easily be seriously fucked.

35 year old DJ would tell 18 yr old DJ to go into medicine.

Too many attorneys, not enough distinction and simply not enough 'good' clients for the supply.

And when there aren't good clients to be had, you'll take on bad clients to keep the lights on. In the alternative, you become a boutique practice so you can get yourself a handful of large national clients that pay their bills (that's pretty much the only way an attorney gets to retire anymore).

Or you get on at a big firm, work away your 20s and early 30s to make partner. If you manage it, you're set for life. If you don't, you're starting all over again with an uphill climb ahead of you.

I got lucky and pulled off the boutique firm with some large national clients route but I'm only ever a few bad outcomes or just flat-ass bad luck away from losing everything we've spent a decade building. It's a stressful gig.

If you guys know any decent lawyers that are struggling, tell them to pass the Kansas Board and come out to Western Kansas. It is flat fucking impossible to find a decent lawyer out here. My parents have a pretty simple A-B trust.

1. The lawyer that wrote it got disbarred (Seriously)
2. Some other motherfucker said they'd do it and set up an ILIT. Then decided fuck it I'm not driving out there. I have no idea if she was any good, but fuck her.
3. They had to find a different lawyer for my grandparent's trust since they had it written by Lawyer 1. So they found this guy that everybody recommended. He had mailed it in years ago. He's probably 65, and has real trouble hiding the fact that he doesn't want to do anything. Acted like we were bothering him EVERY step of the way. Several errors on the documents that a simple proof read would have caught.
4. I think they might have found someone in Topeka that actually sounds like a professional.

EVERYBODY out here has to have a trust, LLCs, Corps, whatever, and it's damn impossible to find somebody to help you out. I've been looking for awhile to consult on some potential liability exposures I have, and haven't found anyone that's even worth asking.

All the lawyers out here are 1. crap or 2. ancient. There has to be incredible opportunities to buy out established businesses or even hang your shingle if you are decent out here. Same with accountants. There just aren't any.

I think there are still income tax wiavers if you move out here to take a professional job.

[DJ's left nut]

Blah blah...the guy billed two hours for a 15-minute task. 30 if we're really, really generous.

What you've written above is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. In my post, I allowed for the possibility that there was a written agreement as to fees and a minimum for any work done.
You know no more than I do about the situation, asshole. However, my take that the guy was overcharged is a lot more reasonable.

And your take is ignorant and based on...well, nothing really.

Again, that attorney had to in essence review that entire trust agreement. You know precisely what about the trust agreement again? Like - anything? Was it a page long? 20 pages long? Pour-over trust? Revocable, irrevocable? Self-settled? Testamentary? Is it designed to avoid probate? Provide gifts to those that aren't presently old enough or considered competent to accept them? Is it a simple shield against creditors designed to lapse when she passes but keep any limited income that may be coming in from being subject to execution? Hell, is it a straight up asset-protection trust to keep her from spending all her money on the home shopping network as she loses her faculties. Why is an additional trustee being added? Will that person stand to get any sort of devise upon the beneficiary's demise (wait...who's our beneficiary again)? Will an existing trustee challenge it? What's the new allocation of responsibilities between the existing trustees and the new one?

There are literally dozens of different kinds of trusts each with several different kinds of purposes and each with their very own sets of hazards and pitfalls that an unsuspecting attorney could fall into if he rubber stamps one. And when our dear hero here walked into the office, it sure doesn't seem like the attorney knew any of this either so of course he had to apprise himself of those facts and circumstances as well.

I reiterate - you know precisely dick about what you're running your yap about and yet leave it to you to insist that some poor groundling must be getting the run-around. An attorney absolutely cannot just slap a new name on a document and move along because he will be held to be in the shoes of the FORMER attorney if anything is wrong with it.

By all means, Matlock - take up his case. You run into a courthouse and tell them that it's unreasonable for an attorney to charge a single hour for anything. Estate/trust law in pretty much every state in the union is complicated as shit these days so no, a lawyer can't dick around with something like that and just throw in a simple copy/paste job.

[luv]

If it's really as simple as you put it, in the case of the attorney I work for, chances are they would have done it for nearly no charge....IF it was a document they prepared in the first place. If the attorney you took the trust to was not the attorney who originally drafted it, then he probably took some time to review the provisions to make sure that any new requirements were included. There are statutes (in Missouri anyway) that state there are certain items to be included and certain language to use to ensure against disputes by family members, etc.

As for the paralegal, again, it depends on if it's the same attorney that originally created the document. Was it a Word document that they had on hand? Did any of it have to be retyped? Surely, the paralegal did not just hand write the changes.

[vailpass]

I read all the posts in the thread and many are just justifying the hourly rate and avoiding the issue.

If what you describe is true--and there is no minimum charge you agreed to in writing--you were overcharged and you should question the bill.
Just because 195/hour and 75/hour might be a reasonable rate, that doesn't mean each of them actually spent an hour (two hours total) on what is--at the very most--a 30-minute total task.

This attorney probably is in the office 9 hours a day yet generates 18 hours of billing a day for him and another 18 for the assistant.

Shut your cock holster and slink back to DC. You know jack and shit about this subject.

[DJ's left nut]

Also, fuckface, if there was a "fee structure" that included a flat or minimum fee for this kind of work, the attorney shouldn't have billed it as "2 hours."
You bill for "two hours," you better have spent at least 2 hours on it. Otherwise, you're looking at an ethics violation, but I'm sure you already knew that. Or probably not.

Wow - doubling down on stupid, eh?

First, he didn't bill it as 2 hours; he billed it as an hour for him and an hour for his secretary. Second, the vast majority of course will allow a minimum bill of a single hour for any person directly involved in the case (i.e. 1 hour for me, 1 for my secretary) if for no other reason than a court recognizes that any time spent on that job is time that pulled you away from other jobs.

Moreover, all states allow incremental billing for partial hours. Most states favor 10ths of an hour but many allow quarters. Most small practitioners won't bother with quarters but some do and it's generally allowed (especially for small amounts). So it's very possible for an attorney who uses unit/incremental billing to end up spending less than an hour on a file but because of unit billing, they can bill an hour and not get anywhere near an ethics violation. Like it, don't like it, I don't really care - but you're again wildly ignorant as to what is allowed.

You. Do. Not. Know. What. You're. Talking. About.

At all. Not even a little bit.

[DaneMcCloud]

Moreover, all states allow incremental billing for partial hours. Most states favor 10ths of an hour but many allow quarters. Most small practitioners won't bother with quarters but some do and it's generally allowed (especially for small amounts). So it's very possible for an attorney who uses unit/incremental billing to end up spending less than an hour on a file but because of unit billing, they can bill an hour and not get anywhere near an ethics violation.

This is actually really great information!

I just checked my last Entertainment Attorney bill and my lawyer billed in 10th's of an hour and greatly detailed the billing (actual phone conference was .80 hours, but only .30 was legal-related, 1.6 hours for review and email, etc.).

[cosmo20002]

And your take is ignorant and based on...well, nothing really.

Again, that attorney had to in essence review that entire trust agreement. You know precisely what about the trust agreement again? Like - anything? Was it a page long? 20 pages long? Pour-over trust? Revocable, irrevocable? Self-settled? Testamentary? Is it designed to avoid probate? Provide gifts to those that aren't presently old enough or considered competent to accept them? Is it a simple shield against creditors designed to lapse when she passes but keep any limited income that may be coming in from being subject to execution? Hell, is it a straight up asset-protection trust to keep her from spending all her money on the home shopping network as she loses her faculties. Why is an additional trustee being added? Will that person stand to get any sort of devise upon the beneficiary's demise (wait...who's our beneficiary again)? Will an existing trustee challenge it? What's the new allocation of responsibilities between the existing trustees and the new one?

There are literally dozens of different kinds of trusts each with several different kinds of purposes and each with their very own sets of hazards and pitfalls that an unsuspecting attorney could fall into if he rubber stamps one. And when our deer hero here walked into the office, it sure doesn't seem like the attorney knew any of this either so of course he had to apprise himself of those facts and circumstances as well.

I reiterate - you know precisely dick about what you're running your yap about and yet leave it to you to insist that some poor groundling must be getting the run-around. An attorney absolutely cannot just slap a new name on a document and move along because he will be held to be in the shoes of the FORMER attorney if anything is wrong with it.

By all means, Matlock - take up his case. You run into a courthouse and tell them that it's unreasonable for an attorney to charge a single hour for anything. Estate/trust law in pretty much every state in the union is complicated as shit these days so no, a lawyer can't dick around with something like that and just throw in a simple copy/paste job.

LAMOAssumes facts not in evidence
The name of a trustee was added. He's not writing the ****ing thing from scratch, gathering information, and devising an estate plan. Pretty much none of what you wrote is relevant to simply adding a trustee, and you surely must know that. You're just blathering on for some reason. If the OP wants to let us in on a bunch of facts he didn't mention before, then he is free to do so.

[cosmo20002]

Shut your cock holster and slink back to DC. You know jack and shit about this subject.

You know jack and shit about what I know about.

[DJ's left nut]

LAMOAssumes facts not in evidence
The name of a trustee was added. He's not writing the fucking thing from scratch, gathering information, and devising an estate plan. Pretty much none of what you wrote is relevant to simply adding a trustee, and you surely must know that. You're just blathering on for some reason.

Some of it is; some of it won't be.

Adding a trustee and what it will take to do so (as well as what it will take to review the document that you're about to put your name one) is absolutely dependent on those questions.

'Simply adding a trustee' is a different process depending on the type of trust and it's purpose because that will determine the responbilities of the trustee and in fact whether that person is even qualified to be a trustee. As for the estate plan, it could absolutely be relevant if you're adding a person that may take as part of the estate later; the rules change again. And what goes into the review of that trust is wildly different based on same.

If you don't know any of that information (really all of it), you could end up unintentionally forcing a trustee to surrender a gift. It's not terribly likely, but again, malpractice exposure means you'd damn sure better know for sure. So there's more review.

And you know NONE of this, yet have had no problem telling OP that he's clearly being ripped off.

Because you're a fuckwit.

[DJ's left nut]

You know jack and shit about what I know about.

You know jack and shit about this, of that I am certain.

Your own words have made it clear.

[cosmo20002]

Wow - doubling down on stupid, eh?

First, he didn't bill it as 2 hours; he billed it as an hour for him and an hour for his secretary. Second, the vast majority of course will allow a minimum bill of a single hour for any person directly involved in the case (i.e. 1 hour for me, 1 for my secretary) if for no other reason than a court recognizes that any time spent on that job is time that pulled you away from other jobs.

Moreover, all states allow incremental billing for partial hours. Most states favor 10ths of an hour but many allow quarters. Most small practitioners won't bother with quarters but some do and it's generally allowed (especially for small amounts). So it's very possible for an attorney who uses unit/incremental billing to end up spending less than an hour on a file but because of unit billing, they can bill an hour and not get anywhere near an ethics violation. Like it, don't like it, I don't really care - but you're again wildly ignorant as to what is allowed.

You. Do. Not. Know. What. You're. Talking. About.

At all. Not even a little bit.

Yeah---that's two fucking hours.
And, don't take it out of the context of what I said--if he's billing a minimum fee or a flat rate, he wouldn't be billing "2 hours."
And it is not ok to state, "all work will be billed as one hour minimum," take 15 minutes doing it, then bill for "1 hour."
You are full of shit.

[Amnorix]

All of the lawyers that I know personally are extremely passionate about their jobs but I concede that it's different because most, if not all, are "failed" musicians that practice law because of their personal connection to music and protection of composers, artists, etc.

I'm sure it would be quite different without that kind of passion.

That said, I do know a few people that received their law degrees but opted not to take the bar and never became lawyers but have told me that they're glad they went to law school because it helped further their careers in Silicon Valley tech.


I suspect that by and large you're speaking with attorneys that have actually succeeded, and aren't really in a position to see/notice the many that wash out.

From a 2014 article:

Lawyers have been struggling for a while now, but it's gotten even worse: Half of lawyers are now starting at a salary of less than $62,000 a year, according to the National Association for Law Placement.

To make matters worse, the student debt that law school grads are carrying is climbing. Half carried more than $141,000 in student debt in 2012, according to a study from the New America Foundation. That's up more than $50,000 from a decade ago, and climbing faster than the debt loads tied other professions.


http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/

[DaneMcCloud]

I suspect that by and large you're speaking with attorneys that have actually succeeded, and aren't really in a position to see/notice the many that wash out.

Yeah, for sure. As I mentioned earlier, I concede the fact that the lawyers I know in the entertainment business are extremely passionate about it and do very well. As a matter of fact, of those lawyers that were either lawyers when I met them or in law school while working in the business, all are either partners in yuge firms or VP's all over town.

Also, I might add that I had an assistant that graduated from UCLA with some dopey degree that could never focus on the task at hand. After inadvertently making her cry during her annual review, I suggested she go to law school.

She now has a successful Family Practice firm in San Francisco.

[Amnorix]

This is actually really great information!

I just checked my last Entertainment Attorney bill and my lawyer billed in 10th's of an hour and greatly detailed the billing (actual phone conference was .80 hours, but only .30 was legal-related, 1.6 hours for review and email, etc.).


I practiced in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts at several firms and always did 10ths. I can't tell you how much I love tracking my life in six minute increments.

[DJ's left nut]

Yeah---that's two fucking hours.
And, don't take it out of the context of what I said--if he's billing a minimum fee or a flat rate, he wouldn't be billing "2 hours."
And it is not ok to state, "all work will be billed as one hour minimum," take 15 minutes doing it, then bill for "1 hour."
You are full of shit.

Um....yes, that's exactly what it's okay to do.

Shit, your mechanic can charge you a minimum 1 hour rate, why again couldn't an attorney?

Now I wouldn't recommend doing it if you don't tell the person that's what you're going to do, but if any kind of conversation has been had (and I'm betting it was), you can absolutely set a minimum amount.

Hell, I have a few courts we practice in that will award us a minimum flat amount of attorneys fees if we ask for them or not. 2 of our larger counties have a minimum rate of $300 regardless of what kind of time we have in it. I've had a judge double our requested amount before because he decided we could've actually asked for more in our fees memorandum.

You continue to speak in absolutes in an area where you have precisely zero idea what you're talking about.

[cosmo20002]

Some of it is; some of it won't be.

Adding a trustee and what it will take to do so (as well as what it will take to review the document that you're about to put your name one) is absolutely dependent on those questions.

'Simply adding a trustee' is a different process depending on the type of trust and it's purpose because that will determine the responbilities of the trustee and in fact whether that person is even qualified to be a trustee. As for the estate plan, it could absolutely be relevant if you're adding a person that may take as part of the estate later; the rules change again. And what goes into the review of that trust is wildly different based on same.

If you don't know any of that information (really all of it), you could end up unintentionally forcing a trustee to surrender a gift. It's not terribly likely, but again, malpractice exposure means you'd damn sure better know for sure. So there's more review.

And you know NONE of this, yet have had no problem telling OP that he's clearly being ripped off.

Because you're a ****wit.

I said he should question it, asshole.
And you had no problem telling him the charges were fine, without any more information that I had.

[DJ's left nut]

I practiced in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts at several firms and always did 10ths. I can't tell you how much I love tracking my life in six minute increments.

I was going to mention that.

I had a professor in my first year make that exact point - nothing will make you devalue your life and hate your profession that breaking your days into 6 minute increments.

And it isn't just the time you spend at the office. If you go home and spend the evening with your kid you know what you could have billed and again, all in 6 minute blocks.

Just a horrid way of doing things but it's one that's being phased out a bit with technology. When we're in an hourly case, we open our file-management software and ensure it's open when we're working it. If we're not working the file, we close it. It tracks that stuff to the minute.

But for some ignorant half-wit like Cosmo to walk in here prattling on about ethics violations as though you HAVE to do that is just the height of ridiculousness.

[cosmo20002]

Um....yes, that's exactly what it's okay to do.

Shit, your mechanic can charge you a minimum 1 hour rate, why again couldn't an attorney?

Now I wouldn't recommend doing it if you don't tell the person that's what you're going to do, but if any kind of conversation has been had (and I'm betting it was), you can absolutely set a minimum amount.

Hell, I have a few courts we practice in that will award us a minimum flat amount of attorneys fees if we ask for them or not. 2 of our larger counties have a minimum rate of $300 regardless of what kind of time we have in it. I've had a judge double our requested amount before because he decided we could've actually asked for more in our fees memorandum.

You continue to speak in absolutes in an area where you have precisely zero idea what you're talking about.

JFC...I'm done...I've fucking allowed for that.
But billing for more time than what was spent...yeah, the state bar tends not to like that. And that's also how you get attorneys who have billed for twice the hours than they actually worked in a day...which I mentioned in my first post, and you freaked out about it.

[DaneMcCloud]

I practiced in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts at several firms and always did 10ths. I can't tell you how much I love tracking my life in six minute increments.

LMAO

[DJ's left nut]

I said he should question it, asshole.
And you had no problem telling him the charges were fine, without any more information that I had.

"You were overcharged...." Your words, turbo.

And yeah, I said the charges were fine. Because I'm absolutely positive that if he did any kind of fee challenge on a trust instrument over being billed an hour for a lawyer and another hour for his secretary, he'd lose. If he so much as said "I reviewed the trust instrument and had my secretary prepare and assemble copies", a judge might not like it, but at a single hour he's not going to deem it abusive.

The only thing that would change it is if he had a specific fee arrangement for something else but he very clearly didn't based on how he first addressed it in the OP.

It's amazing to me that our resident DC red-ass can start a dick measuring contest in an arena where he literally has ZERO relevant experience or training and then somehow double down on his fucking idiocy.

[ChiefsCountry]

Same with accountants. There just aren't any.


Advice I got back in high school from the local Chevy dealer in my hometown, if you don't what to do in college - get a degree in accounting/finance. Every body pays taxes, every business needs a bookkeeper, and every town has a bank.

[Rain Man]

Billing for an hour is a money loser by the time you take into account the cost of invoicing and putting it in your books. It's not even worth doing.

[GloryDayz]

Don't use a lawyer and pray you get it right, or fuck it up, and pay thousands and have family members at each other's throats for the rest of their lives.

Up to you.

I see this shit all the time. I clean up more fucking messes by people who think they can save a few bucks and then end up with a multiple thousands dollar problem.

Maybe that's what needs to get fixed. Perhaps it's time that judges (lawyers) not be so fucking stupid about everything and all but require a person of their ilk to be paid massive sums to do something that's as conceptually as basic and a will or a trust. Much like it being time to simplify tax code so we don't all have to hire CPAs to do our taxes, it might be time to make sure that when I write down that I want all my money to go to new-dog when I die, that it goes to new-dog. It seems like a bit of a racket, don't ya think?

And I have nothing much against lawyers, I really don't, I just think certain simple things shouldn't require them "or else."

That and I still believe that the SCOTUS shouldn't require lawyers. Perhaps because of the other beliefs I've stated, I think that's the one court that decides "right vs. wrong" and constitutionality. The constitution is so easy that an immigrant can understand it (supposedly), and right vs. wrong sure as hell isn't something you learn in law school - quite the opposite in some cases IMO.

[Amnorix]

Maybe that's what needs to get fixed. Perhaps it's time that judges (lawyers) not be so fucking stupid about everything and all but require a person of their ilk to be paid massive sums to do something that's as conceptually as basic and a will or a trust.


The problem isn't lawyers, it's humans being humans.

Much like it being time to simplify tax code so we don't all have to hire CPAs to do our taxes, it might be time to make sure that when I write down that I want all my money to go to new-dog when I die, that it goes to new-dog. It seems like a bit of a racket, don't ya think?

Taxes I agree, because government is so heavily involved. Look, if you have a straight will with nobody likely to fight it, or not enough money for anyone to bother fighting over, then yeah, you can do it without a will.

Once you get enough money involved, just because someone is probably going to want a piece of that pie (human's fault, not lawyers) then you might want to lawyer up and make sure it passes muster.

And I have nothing much against lawyers, I really don't, I just think certain simple things shouldn't require them "or else."

That and I still believe that the SCOTUS shouldn't require lawyers. Perhaps because of the other beliefs I've stated, I think that's the one court that decides "right vs. wrong" and constitutionality. The constitution is so easy that an immigrant can understand it (supposedly), and right vs. wrong sure as hell isn't something you learn in law school - quite the opposite in some cases IMO.

SCOTUS doesn't require lawyers. It's not in the Constitution, and there have been non-lawyers. Justice Jackson never got a law degree, as I recall, and he was an excellent justice.

These days, though, good luck getting ANY federal judge appointed without a law degree. Senate would bounce them automatically.

[luv]

Maybe that's what needs to get fixed. Perhaps it's time that judges (lawyers) not be so ****ing stupid about everything and all but require a person of their ilk to be paid massive sums to do something that's as conceptually as basic and a will or a trust. Much like it being time to simplify tax code so we don't all have to hire CPAs to do our taxes, it might be time to make sure that when I write down that I want all my money to go to new-dog when I die, that it goes to new-dog. It seems like a bit of a racket, don't ya think?

And I have nothing much against lawyers, I really don't, I just think certain simple things shouldn't require them "or else."


You probably have more than money. Personal property, real estate, stocks, etc? And, speaking of those assets, are you sure you don't need to record a deed of some kind? Are there items you can simply POD or TOD? Do you need a Springing Durable Power of Attorney or a Medical Directive as well? What happens if you and your dog die at the same time?

[bdj23]

I used to date a chick who was an attorney.

Literally the craziest broad I've ever met. I think it lasted 3 weeks tops. Despite her being loaded and a demon in the sack.

/adds nothing

[Mr. Laz]

People who make nothing,develop nothing,contribute nothing, yet make more money than people that are actually worth something.


'murica

[GloryDayz]

You probably have more than money. Personal property, real estate, stocks, etc? And, speaking of those assets, are you sure you don't need to record a deed of some kind? Are there items you can simply POD or TOD? Do you need a Springing Durable Power of Attorney or a Medical Directive as well? What happens if you and your dog die at the same time?

Deed - Why should it take a lawyer?

POD/TOD - should be able to be covered with a hand-written note. And in 2016 a simple electronic template should be fine. At least enough to not suffer the fear of "or else" from lawyers.

SPOT - Already got a durable..

MD - Got it...

Dog - I'll always have a dog!

[SAUTO]

I'm looking for a probate lawyer in kck. Anyone got any suggestions?