Will our drafts get better, post Dorsey and Ballard?

[Eleazar]

Simple question.

[DJ's left nut]

Nope. Especially not post-Dorsey and Ballard.

If we're extremely lucky, they won't get appreciably worse, but that is likely being optimistic.

[kgrund]

Hope, but IMO not likely.

[Bowser]

There is really no way to tell at this point in time, but I voted no.

[O.city]

Nope. Especially not post-Dorsey and Ballard.

If we're extremely lucky, they won't get appreciably worse, but that is likely being optimistic.

See this is where the firing get weird to me. As good as they've been drafting, there had to be more than we're hearing to fire Dorsey

[Rain Man]

Per my draft analysis a few weeks ago, the Chiefs had the most productive drafts in the NFL during the Dorsey era. It will be almost impossible to match that, much less beat it. If I was to put odds down, I'd say a 1 in 32 chance of having the #1 ranking, so about a 3% chance that future drafts are equal or better.

I had to vote for the Broncos cheating option, by the way. I had no choice.

[DaneMcCloud]

Stay the same.

While many people are running around, screaming that the sky is falling, the most important factor, the coaching staff, is still in place.

Many, if not all, of Dorsey's draft picks were highly athletic, "High Ceiling, Low Floor" football players. Few had an instant impact. Most needed to be coached up for at least one full year (if not more), which has caused many Chiefsplanet member to groan ad nauseam.

The blueprint for their previous success is in place.

There's no reason to believe that Veach or whomever won't continue with the plan that's firmly entrenched.

[Buckweath]

Per my draft analysis a few weeks ago, the Chiefs had the most productive drafts in the NFL during the Dorsey era. It will be almost impossible to match that, much less beat it. If I was to put odds down, I'd say a 1 in 32 chance of having the #1 ranking, so about a 3% chance that future drafts are equal or better.

I had to vote for the Broncos cheating option, by the way. I had no choice.

Yeah I just don't get it how some fans don't seem to see that Dorsey has had stellar drafts considering the picks that he had. We have had huge production from our drafts.

I could be led to believe that Veach could do the same because there is a lot more to drafting than the GM but how can you even ask the question if our drafts will get better when they have been stellar.

It can only get worse but hopefully stays the same.

[chiefzilla1501]

Every single first and second round pick Dorsey drafted is starting. For a playoff roster. Picking mostly with low round picks.

That is an insanely good track record.

[penbrook]

Every single first and second round pick Dorsey drafted is starting. For a playoff roster. Picking mostly with low round picks.

That is an insanely good track record.

Jones isn't and same with dee ford.

[chiefzilla1501]

There have been several interviews where Dorsey gave clues to what he thinks about. He drafted fisher because he saw the trend that with qbs with quick releases, teams were looking for fast speed rushers. He wanted a guy with reach and quick feet to divert a rusher long enough. He drafted dee ford because he wanted that version of a speed rusher. He went on a DL binge because he and Sutton recognized that the Ryan scheme had to be tweaked to allow DL to do more inside rush.

While Pioli forced fitted everything into one specific scheme, Dorsey continually adapted the personnel to fit a scheme of the future. That's a big loss for kc and not an easy one to replace.

[DaneMcCloud]

Every single first and second round pick Dorsey drafted is starting. For a playoff roster. Picking mostly with low round picks.

That is an insanely good track record.

2013: Eric Fisher, who was awful. No 2nd round pick.
2014: Dee Ford, who didn't start until 2016. No 2nd round pick
2015: Marcus Peters, Mitch Morse (as a 2nd round center, he was expected to start immediately)
2016: No 1st round pick, 2nd rounder was a rotational player.

[chiefzilla1501]

Jones isn't and same with dee ford.

Jones will start this year. If Ford isn't a starter he will play starter minutes. Think we're talking semantics here. All his first and second rounders are major contributors.

[chiefzilla1501]

2013: Eric Fisher, who was awful. No 2nd round pick.
2014: Dee Ford, who didn't start until 2016. No 2nd round pick
2015: Marcus Peters, Mitch Morse (as a 2nd round center, he was expected to start immediately)
2016: No 1st round pick, 2nd rounder was a rotational player.

Who cares when they started? Who cares if they have the official tag of starter. Apart from fisher, who is fine, all of these players are very good to outstanding. Is anyone really going to look at the above list and say it's anything short of outstanding?

[DaneMcCloud]

There have been several interviews where Dorsey gave clues to what he thinks about. He drafted fisher because he saw the trend that with qbs with quick releases, teams were looking for fast speed rushers. He wanted a guy with reach and quick feet to divert a rusher long enough.

Absolutely false.

Dorsey drafted Fisher with the hope that he'd begin to reach his ceiling by Year 3 or Year 4. They didn't trust Branden Albert to stay healthy and didn't want to pay him $9 million a year.

Fisher sucked ass at right tackle and really didn't begin to make strides as a left tackle until late 2015. Dorsey extended him, which was the correct move but let's not confuse Eric Fisher with other left tackles taken in the Top 10 like Anthony Munoz, Willie Roaf, Jonathan Ogden, etc.

[ModSocks]

We'll be lucky if we stay the same. The new GM will come in with possibly a new philosophy, a new opinion on positional value, a new opinion on risk vs reward and a new opinion on character assessment.

While Dorsey would take a swing on a Marcus Peters or Tyreek Hill, the new GM may have a different opinion on their risk.

It's a completely different guy. It could result in completely different drafts.

[DaneMcCloud]

Who cares when they started? Who cares if they have the official tag of starter.

Moving the goalposts?

Every single first and second round pick Dorsey drafted is starting.

Your premise is incorrect. The Chiefs didn't have a 2nd round pick in 2013 or 2014 and didn't have a 1st round pick in 2016.

Dee Ford didn't start until his 3rd season, and that was due to Houston's lingering injury. It's pretty well known that Chris Ballard did all of the legwork on Marcus Peters.

Your comment is bullshit.

[Best22]

Jones isn't and same with dee ford.

Did you watch the Chiefs last year? Dee Ford is a starter.

Dee Ford and Justin Houston are our starting OLB. Hali and Zombo are backups

[DaneMcCloud]

We'll be lucky if we stay the same. The new GM will come in with possibly a new philosophy, a new opinion on positional value, a new opinion on risk vs reward and a new opinion on character assessment.

Why would the Chiefs hire the guy you've described?

That makes zero sense.

They'll be looking for a seamless transition, not front office overhaul.

[O.city]

Moving the goalposts?



Your premise is incorrect. The Chiefs didn't have a 2nd round pick in 2013 or 2014 and didn't have a 1st round pick in 2016.

Dee Ford didn't start until his 3rd season, and that was due to Houston's lingering injury. It's pretty well known that Chris Ballard did all of the legwork on Marcus Peters.

Your comment is bullshit.

Every 1st or 2nd rounder Dorsey has drafted is a big contributor. I don't see where he stated otherwise

[chiefzilla1501]

Absolutely false.

Dorsey drafted Fisher with the hope that he'd begin to reach his ceiling by Year 3 or Year 4. They didn't trust Branden Albert to stay healthy and didn't want to pay him $9 million a year.

Fisher sucked ass at right tackle and really didn't begin to make strides as a left tackle until late 2015. Dorsey extended him, which was the correct move but let's not confuse Eric Fisher with other left tackles taken in the Top 10 like Anthony Munoz, Willie Roaf, Jonathan Ogden, etc.

What? Who's comparing fisher to those guys. I'm talking about Dorseys thought process. He brought in Vance walker to give an inside rush... That didn't work, but the thought process eventually led him to Chris Jones.

[ModSocks]

Why would the Chiefs hire the guy you've described?

That makes zero sense.

Because no two guys are the same?

I mean look no further than Pioli vs Dorsey. Both are Hunt hires and both came highly regarded. The results couldn't be more different. There's simply no guarantee that they'll just pick up where they left off.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

As long as the coaching staff remains and Veach is hired, I would say about the same.

Every team hits and misses on some draft picks. Not every team develops their picks on the field as well as others. That is where I am hoping we will be fine, as Reid and his staff have remained stable.

[DaneMcCloud]

Because no two guys are the same?

I mean look no further than Pioli vs Dorsey. Both are Hunt hires and both came highly regarded. The results couldn't be more different. There's simply no guarantee that they'll just pick up where they left off.

Veach has already been described at the #3 in the organization behind Dorsey & Ballard, so I don't think there will be a fundamental shift in philosophy once he's hired.

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article158607959.html#navlink=Lead


Part of this is Veach’s own reputation. He has been, basically, the front office’s No. 3 personnel man. So this would be a jump. But personnel folks around the league are unanimous in their praise. The Bills made him a candidate for their own GM opening recently.

Veach spent six years with Andy Reid in Philadelphia before coming to Kansas City, where he’s been an important part of building one of the league’s best and deepest rosters. He also played college ball with quarterbacks coach Matt Nagy.

[KChiefs1]

Only if Direckshun is running the draft room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chiefzilla1501]

Moving the goalposts?



Your premise is incorrect. The Chiefs didn't have a 2nd round pick in 2013 or 2014 and didn't have a 1st round pick in 2016.

Dee Ford didn't start until his 3rd season, and that was due to Houston's lingering injury. It's pretty well known that Chris Ballard did all of the legwork on Marcus Peters.

Your comment is bullshit.

You are doing a lot of gymnastics to not give a guy credit.

Claiming a pick wasn't good because he took a few years to develop is bullshit.
Not giving credit to the gm for pulling the trigger on a controversial pick like Peters is bullshit
Not crediting Dorsey for the Jones pick even though he was borderline DROY last year is bullshit

It's simple. 5 picks. Fisher is debatable. The rest as of today are terrific. 4 out of 5 picks weren't even in the top 15. That's outstanding.

[DaneMcCloud]

Every 1st or 2nd rounder Dorsey has drafted is a big contributor. I don't see where he stated otherwise

Fisher was forced into playing his first and second season. He certainly wasn't ready.

Dee Ford didn't see any meaningful snaps until his third season.

Yeah, Mitch Morse started his rookie season at Center! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Dorsey did a fine job but some of you people are painting him as guy that made every correct decision, made no wrong decisions and is essentially, irreplaceable.

No one is irreplaceable.

[Direckshun]

Only if Direckshun is running the draft room.

Put Direckshun's Head on the Chopping Block

[RunKC]

-the entire coaching staff is the same
-the entire regional scouts are the same
-Mike Borgonzi is still here
-Brett Veach is still here

I think they can keep the ship sailing okay, but there is no doubt that we will take some sort of small step back. I think those guys off the barrel bin like Abdullah, Mitchell, Parker, etc were products of Ballard, Dorsey and Lewis.

We were going to be in this situation anyway. Veach wasn't going to be here in 2018, so either way you were losing 2/3 of your top guys.

[DaneMcCloud]

You are doing a lot of gymnastics to not give a guy credit.

No, you're moving the goalposts, again, because you're a cornered little bitch.

[Direckshun]

Fisher was forced into playing his first and second season. He certainly wasn't ready.

Dee Ford didn't see any meaningful snaps until his third season.

Yeah, Mitch Morse started his rookie season at Center! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Dorsey did a fine job but some of you people are painting him as guy that made every correct decision and made no wrong decisions.

Your tune has changed, somewhat. Dorsey was an outstanding GM by all accounts.

But his drafting and handling of Russell in the 3rd in 2016 was a disaster, yet I remember you calling it a "boss move." Now you're listing as one of Dorsey's biggest errors -- I'm glad you found religion on this but it's a telling change in tune.

Dorsey had plenty of bad to go along with his good.

But what do I want my GMs to do? What's most important to me?

50% of my evaluation of them is how well they draft
40% of my evaluation of them is how well they handle FA
8% of my evaluation of them is how well they manage the salary cap
2% of them is cosmetic shit like how well do they get along with folks

Dorsey was an A, a B-, an F, on those first three, respectively. The last one I know is important inside the building but to me as a fan I just don't care.

Pioli, however, was a D+, an F, and a C+. While being a gigantic steaming pile of shit in the process.

[chiefzilla1501]

Fisher was forced into playing his first and second season. He certainly wasn't ready.

Dee Ford didn't see any meaningful snaps until his third season.

Yeah, Mitch Morse started his rookie season at Center! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Dorsey did a fine job but some of you people are painting him as guy that made every correct decision, made no wrong decisions and is essentially, irreplaceable.

No one is irreplaceable.

No one is saying he's irreplaceable. But he set a very high bar especially when it comes to the draft. I sure hope when a player starts or contributes isn't the bar we set or else mahomes is already a bust.

[penbrook]

Fisher has been my most improved player. He is a top 5-10 LT

[DaneMcCloud]

Your tune has changed, somewhat. Dorsey was an outstanding GM by all accounts.

No, I'm pointing out the fallacy of his post.

Dorsey was a fine GM but it was a collaborative effort and every pick didn't have an instant impact.

That's revisionist history.

[DaneMcCloud]

Fisher has been my most improved player. He is a top 5-10 LT

Top 10, maybe.

Top 5? Not yet.

[Direckshun]

No, I'm pointing out the fallacy of his post.

Dorsey was a fine GM but it was a collaborative effort and every pick didn't have an instant impact.

That's revisionist history.

I'd call being a Top 5 GM a bit more impressive than "fine."

Your assessment of him, as I've already pointed out, has downgraded almost immediately after he was released. So who's the revisionist now?

The odds that we're replacing him with a Top 5 GM are very low. I think it's possible that we had two Top 5 GMs in the building with Ballard. But three is just very, very unlikely.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'd call being a Top 5 GM a bit more impressive than "fine."

Your assessment of him, as I've already pointed out, has downgraded almost immediately after he was released. So who's the revisionist now?

Bullshit.

I've praised Dorsey's drafts and criticized his awful free agency moves. But let's not pretend that his drafts didn't come with an element of risk due to his continual drafting of athletes with high ceilings, not finished football players.

Pull your head out of your ass, Voyager.

Also, they don't need a "Top 5 GM" when they have the second best coaching staff in the NFL.

[chiefzilla1501]

No, you're moving the goalposts, again, because you're a cornered little bitch.

ROFL
The goalposts are exactly the same. The point was that all 5 are major contributors. And all 5 will probably start in 2017. The only one on the fence is dee ford, a guy who had over 10 sacks last season.

I'm not cornered. Considering everyone here is arguing with you, not me.

[Buckweath]

Bullshit.

I've praised Dorsey's drafts and criticized his awful free agency moves. But let's not pretend that his drafts didn't come with an element of risk due to his continual drafting of athletes with high ceilings, not finished football players.

Pull your head out of your ass, Voyager.

Also, they don't need a "Top 5 GM" when they have the second best coaching staff in the NFL.

What are Dorsey's awful free agent moves?

Maclin was certainly not awful. Chiefs needed a top WR in the worst way and he was paid market value. I just think he might have been too injury prone but that's it. It was still the right move to sign him at the time because that team was devoid of any talent at WR and you can't just ignore that and not do anything when you have a roster ready to compete.

And I think no one will deny he made some great free agent moves: Schwartz, Mitchell, Branch, Parker.

Anyways, Dorsey was not big on pricey free agents. Logan looks nice but we have to see.

[O.city]

Fisher was forced into playing his first and second season. He certainly wasn't ready.

Dee Ford didn't see any meaningful snaps until his third season.

Yeah, Mitch Morse started his rookie season at Center! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Dorsey did a fine job but some of you people are painting him as guy that made every correct decision, made no wrong decisions and is essentially, irreplaceable.

No one is irreplaceable.


I don't think he said immediate starter?

[Hoover]

I'm a Dorsey fan. And I'll continue to follow his career. While he wasn't perfect, I really thought he was excellent. As expected, this move and his career has been debated backwards and forwards. I think there is a sizable chunk of the puzzle that has been left untouched, Clark Hunt.

To make a move like letting Dforsey go early, endicates a couple of things. One, Clark knows excatly what he wants in a front office guy. He's now seen first hand how Pioli operated and now Dorsey. Clearly Clark wasn't satisfied and I give him credit for being comfortable making a move a rest of the world says you should not make. During the past four seasons not only have the Chiefs turned around as a team, but Clark has really came into his own. It's obvious he likes the management structure, how the HC and the GM answer to him separately.

I guess all the talk about Reid and Dorsey, just bugs me because I think what we are seeing is the Chiefs becoming Clark's team. I'm really interested to see who he picks.

[JakeF]

Our contracts, big free agent signings and our salary cap might get better.

I doubt our scrap heap signings will get any better.

The life's blood of every NFL team is the draft and ours will almost assuredly not be as good now.

[threebag]

Too many factors other than just it was Dorsey and/or Ballard. Seems short sided.

[DaneMcCloud]

What are Dorsey's awful free agent moves?

Anyways, Dorsey was not big on pricey free agents. Logan looks nice but we have to see.

LMAO

This is has discussed a million times. If Dorsey's free agency contracts weren't bad, how did he pile up $73 million in accumulated Dead Cap Space?

JFC.

[DaneMcCloud]

I'm really interested to see who he picks.

If he chooses anyone other than Veach, he's blowing up the entire front office.

That doesn't seem like a wise move.

[Eleazar]

Our contracts, big free agent signings and our salary cap might get better.

I doubt our scrap heap signings will get any better.

The life's blood of every NFL team is the draft and ours will almost assuredly not be as good now.

Drafting well and making those diamond in the rough signings are more important than cap space, IMO. The influx of talent is a prerequisite to retaining talent.

[NJChiefsFan]

Dorsey had Ballard and Veach to work with. Now Veach will potentially be working with the 4th and 5th best guys in the organization. I wouldn't be thrilled if we fired Reid and had has number 3, 4, and 5 guy running the team.

Losing Dorsey and Ballard will, in all likelyhood, be a step back with our roster. Odds of Veach and 2 guys equally filling the Dorsey/Ballard/Veach roles is asking a lot.

[DaneMcCloud]

Losing Dorsey and Ballard will, in all likelyhood, be a step back with our roster. Odds of Veach and 2 guys equally filling the Dorsey/Ballard/Veach roles is asking a lot.

No offense but only if you think Dorsey was a unicorn and scouting is magic.

Teams turn around their fortunes very quickly these days.

[cdcox]

Drafts will be worse but there will be more ties. Clark will be happy.

[BlackOp]

No offense but only if you think Dorsey was a unicorn and scouting is magic.

Teams turn around their fortunes very quickly these days.

I do think Dorsey is a unicorn...and will replicate what he did here with his next team. He loves what he does...

Any GM can get lucky here and there. His consistency showed it wasn't luck...they had like five quality safeties in 2015.

Chunt can go hang himself with his BS corporate tie persona....dude's a Goldman-Sachs indoctrinated phony. I can see through his helmet-hair attempt to appear as generic as possible.

[Eleazar]

Drafts will be worse but there will be more ties. Clark will be happy.

Ties are the new candy wrappers

[BossChief]

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens over the next couple years and what direction the new GM decides to go.

Lots of prime contracts are coming due and tough decisions will need to be made to move on from some of the best players to ever put on a Chiefs jersey.

[Eleazar]

Only 3 voters out of 62 feel that this will be good for our ability to identify and draft talent into the organization.

A pretty bad prognosis when you consider that this is how franchises are built.

Apart from candy wrappers and ties, I mean.

[DaneMcCloud]

I do think Dorsey is a unicorn...and will replicate what he did here with his next team. He loves what he does...

Then I guess Jon Robinson (Tennessee) and Jason Licht (Tampa Bay) are Unicorns, too.

[DaneMcCloud]

Only 3 voters out of 62 feel that this will be good for our ability to identify and draft talent into the organization.

Except for the fact that Chiefsplanet has a long running history of being wrong about major Chiefs decisions.

[cdcox]

Except for the fact that Chiefsplanet has a long running history of being wrong about major Chiefs decisions.

I believe it is the Chiefs with the long running history of being wrong about major Chiefs decisions.

[CoMoChief]

There's really no way to tell at this point. Sucks that Ballard isn't still in KC though. He would have been the obvious replacement.

One thing I do know, is Reid had some fairly deep rosters in Philly over the years. You can't win as many games as he did without drafting well.

[NWTF]

Simple question.

Simple answer.

Probably not

[Coogs]

Short term, we have a pretty good team in place. If the Mahomes pick turns out to be a home run... which I think it will... then the drafts can stay centered around filling the potential holes on the horizon/building around Mahomes. No reason at this point to think the draft has to go in reverse IMO.