Years removed, what are your opinions of our former HCs?

[Direckshun]

Herm Edwards
Todd Haley
Romeo Crennel

Have your opinions of these guys changed at all now that they can no longer hurt us?

What is your general take on each of these guys?

[milkman]

Who the fuck cares?

[RippedmyFlesh]

All 3 were dumpster fires.

[Buehler445]

FUCK SQUIRMIN HERMAN MOTHERFUCKING SACK OF CUNT EDWARDS

Seriously, fuck that fuck guy.

The rest, meh. Pioli was the big bad. They weren't doing shit saddled to that fuckfest.

[Easy 6]

Herm was an absolutely awful gameday tactician, but gets credit for the youth movement

Haley was a good motivator with a, shall we say, passionate side... but wasnt quite ready for prime time

Romeo barely even registers with me, his one season was one to forget

[RealSNR]

Romeo was necessary to rid us of PatriotAIDS. We needed his suck to get all of that shit out off our team.

Without him, we don't go 2-14, and Pioli is still the general manager. For that matter, another 7-9 season very likely would have brought about another year of Matt Cassel.

[Best22]

Herm Edwards
Todd Haley
Romeo Crennel

Have your opinions of these guys changed at all now that they can no longer hurt us?

What is your general take on each of these guys?

Who cares? We have Andy Reid and the future is bright

[stevieray]

who?

[Deberg_1990]

They all three sucked.

Edwards was probably the best of all three of them. At least he had some success with the Jets and one season here with Vermeil leftovers

[FlaChief58]

May they all suck big black peni with Beelzebub in Hell forever

[DaneMcCloud]

Gunther - Joke

Vermeil - Fucking Joke

Edwards - BIG Fucking Joke

Haley - BIGGER Fucking Joke

Crennel - BIGGEST Fucking Joke

[TimeForWasp]

I liked Haley, but am glad we have Reid now.

[Hammock Parties]

Mediocre
Garbage
Garbage

I just lol'd when we hired Romeo Crennel...abysmal HC.

[Kyle DeLexus]

I still think Haley will make a great HC one day. He was put in a shitty situation with a shitty environment. Herm and Romeo were not good HCs. Both would be elite coordinators but just not HC material.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

JETStink
JETStink
JETStink

[ClevelandBronco]

No team should ever admit that it hired Romeo Crennel as head coach. Doesn't matter if there's proof on film. Deny, deny, deny.

[DaneMcCloud]

I liked Haley, but am glad we have Reid now.

Haley was a cuck.

Like, seriously.

And he fucking sucks.

[Bowser]

Herm Edwards
Todd Haley
Romeo Crennel

Have your opinions of these guys changed at all now that they can no longer hurt us?

What is your general take on each of these guys?

Not worth a fuck, any of them. Herm should never have been a coach. His place was in the front office, head of scouting or maybe a GM type, not as a head coach. Romeo was completely out of his depth and a pity hire by dipshit Pioli since nobody worth a damn likely wanted to come work for him. Haley kind of intrigues me as a head coach prospect, but he was doomed to failure with an egomaniac like Pioli looming over him.

Don't miss them, like at all.

[Hammock Parties]

I still think Herm was just Tony Dungy without a HOF QB.

He got fucked by Carl.

[Bowser]

Haley was a cuck.

Like, seriously.

And he fucking sucks.

At least his wife was a smokeshow

[hometeam]

Herm Edwards - Good DB coach, that's about it
Todd Haley - Moron
Romeo Crennel - Clueless moron

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

They all suck !

[DaFace]

Crennel had no business being a head coach. Herm was an idiot. Haley I think could have been successful with someone other than Cassel to build around.

[chiefzilla1501]

Haley's temperamental stuff is a big nothingburger. Especially in light of all the stories about how Pioli treated him. It's amazing that the Cardinals, Cowboys, and Steelers have nothing bad to say about his attitude. People acted like he was being put in his place by Big Ben. They ended up becoming very close and Big Ben was coached up really nicely. I'm not sure what Haley's place is. He is outstanding coaching up players. But his playcalling lacks imagination and while he's not a bad game manager, his situational playcalling leaves a lot to be desired. I think he'd end up being a good coach but his playcalling would hold him back.

[Mephistopheles Janx]

Herm - Awful pro coach... probably would have slayed in college
Haley - Will always believe that had he been in a better situation (no Pioli/Cassel) he could have succeeded as a HC
Romeo - Don't understand how he is still employed

[Rain Man]

I think history will view the triad as follows:

Romeo Crennel - History will not remember Crennel. Any references will be to "that time when we had several head coaches who all sucked", and only the top 3 percent of fans will be able to name him without prompting.

Todd Haley - Will probably be largely forgotten, but I think history will generally remember him as a guy with potential how got shafted by bad management in all aspects of the game. He'll be remembered more as a victim of Pioli than anything else.

Herm Edwards - History will treat him better than he deserves. Future historians will look at the drafts in his era and the collapse of talent when he came in, and they'll say that he was a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. They won't remember the nightmarish disaster of his actual coaching and everything about the way he ran the team.

[Buehler445]

Not worth a fuck, any of them. Herm should never have been a coach. His place was in the front office, head of scouting or maybe a GM type, not as a head coach. Romeo was completely out of his depth and a pity hire by dipshit Pioli since nobody worth a damn likely wanted to come work for him. Haley kind of intrigues me as a head coach prospect, but he was doomed to failure with an egomaniac like Pioli looming over him.

Don't miss them, like at all.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards was just as fucking horrible at personnel as he was at coaching.

Sure, he picked up a couple guys that were good, but on the whole, Vermiel, with a strapped cap, had more guys on his final roster that played 3 more years than Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

I'm not shitting.

Someone here argued with me for like a week about it and other than a couple nice players his teams were fucking hot garbage. Fucking horribad. Dorsey could do better with nothing but UDFA's than Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards did with top 5 picks and top 5 position on the waiver wire.

Fuck that fucking piece of fuck shit that is Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

Horrible at coaching
Horrible at personnel
Horrible at analysis.

In short he has been a fucking fraud at every fucking thing he has touched since that goddamned game he returned a fumble at NYG.

FUCK Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

I still think Herm was just Tony Dungy without a HOF QB.

He got fucked by Carl.

Wrong-o Dungy put together a world class D in Tampa all by himself. Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards talked about putting together a tough Defense like they (read: Dungy) did in Tampa while putting out the softest fucking team I've ever fucking seen ever.

FUCK Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

[Buehler445]

Herm - Awful pro coach... probably would have slayed in college
Haley - Will always believe that had he been in a better situation (no Pioli/Cassel) he could have succeeded as a HC
Romeo - Don't understand how he is still employed

I honestly don't think Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards could bamboozle 19 year old kids that he wasn't a fraud. He's a total clownshow.

[Eleazar]

All trash

[dilligaf]

Herm...couldn't stand him then, even less so now.

Haley...I always kinda liked him. His teams seemed to play hard. Too bad all he had was Casshole.

Romeo...that season has been erased from my memory.

[Mephistopheles Janx]

I honestly don't think Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards could bamboozle 19 year old kids that he wasn't a fraud. He's a total clownshow.

See... he has that whole Southern Baptist Mississippi Tent Revival preacher thing going on. I think that kids would have eaten his shit up especially coming from the guy responsible for The Miracle at the Meadowlands.

The talent his mouth and charisma alone could have made up for the flaws in his coaching to the point where he was successful more often than not.

I get it though.

[penbrook]

Haley benched Bowe and DJ and got the best out of them.

[DaneMcCloud]

Haley benched Bowe and DJ and got the best out of them.

Maybe we'll get lucky and the Mods will bench you

[oaklandhater]

Gunther - Joke

Vermeil - ****ing Joke

Edwards - BIG ****ing Joke

Haley - BIGGER ****ing Joke

Crennel - BIGGEST ****ing Joke

2003 was/is the best chiefs team ever Vermeil was not a joke WTF

[Buehler445]

See... he has that whole Southern Baptist Mississippi Tent Revival preacher thing going on. I think that kids would have eaten his shit up especially coming from the guy responsible for The Miracle at the Meadowlands.

The talent his mouth and charisma alone could have made up for the flaws in his coaching to the point where he was successful more often than not.

I get it though.

I think that would get the bodies in the building, but the 16th possession in a row they:
Run the ball off LG
Run the ball of LG
Some shit pass
Punt

Even the dumbest of the kids would be all :spock:

[oaklandhater]

Haley got saddled with a shit GM in Scott and was never going to have success with Cassell he never got a fair ride here.

[oaklandhater]

It still blows my mind that we traded for such a shit coach in Herm Edwards the love he got on CP always blew my mind there were people here that wanted to keep him after Peterson was fired.

Herm years were dumpster years.

[Buehler445]

It still blows my mind that we traded for such a shit coach in Herm Edwards the love he got on CP always blew my mind there were people here that wanted to keep him after Peterson was fired.

Herm years were dumpster years.

I don't recall anyone wanting to keep him. I recall frustration while he was "evaluated" after Scott Franchise Killer Pioli was hired.

[notorious]

Crennel had no business being a head coach. Herm was an idiot. Haley I think could have been successful with someone other than Cassel to build around.

.

[New World Order]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b5-iJUuPWis" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oaklandhater]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/b5-iJUuPWis" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I will never forgot the jets fans who made accounts on here to rub it in our face we traded for this ass clown.

[oaklandhater]

The only good thing Herm ever did was drafting the 2008 draft class.

[jaa1025]

Herm built a decent roster except the QB position. Below average coach.

Haley will be a better coach the 2nd time around IMO. Not sure how much of the funk belongs to him and how much belongs to Pioli. I love his offense. Bad QB situation, toxic work environment doomed him in KC.

Crennel was trash as a HC.

[Buehler445]

Herm built a decent roster except the QB position. Below average coach.

Haley will be a better coach the 2nd time around IMO. Not sure how much of the funk belongs to him and how much belongs to Pioli. I love his offense. Bad QB situation, toxic work environment doomed him in KC.

Crennel was trash as a HC.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards' roster was complete and utter fucking rat shit save like 8 guys.

Turk McBride was one of the best players on that roster. Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards was a terrible personnel man. I wish people would actually go back and look at the rosters he built.

[Rain Man]

Anyone remember Crennel's inspiring team motto that he put up on the wall?

"Eliminate bad football."

It was so inspiring. Something like that is going to really motivate players to greatness.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/10/25/eliminate-bad-football-sign-eliminated-by-chiefs-play-good-football-sign-now.html

[oaklandhater]

Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards' roster was complete and utter ****ing rat shit save like 8 guys.

Turk McBride was one of the best players on that roster. Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards was a terrible personnel man. I wish people would actually go back and look at the rosters he built.

he gets a pass on here for a'lot of people

cause of Albert Carr/Flowers and Charles.


Some forget Dorsey was a huge bust.

[Deberg_1990]

Haley will be a better coach the 2nd time around IMO.



When will that be? It's been 6 years now. I thought he might get another shot someday, but now I'm not so sure? You never hear his name mentioned anymore for HC openings

[displacedinMN]

Herm won only because of other people talents. Best first half coach ever. Worst second half coach ever.

Todd-would never have won if it had not been for Crennel and Weis as coordinators.

Crennel-should not have been head coach.

All three just allow us to appreciate Andy and Marty.

[oaklandhater]

When will that be? It's been 6 years now. I thought he might get another shot someday, but now I'm not so sure? You never hear his name mentioned anymore for HC openings

you have to think Hunt Blackballed him.


Hunt/Pioli

HATED/HATE him.

[Buehler445]

The only good thing Herm ever did was drafting the 2008 draft class.

No.

1.5 Glenn Dorsey - Fucking bust. Fucking God Fucking Awful Motherfucking Shit fucking pick.
1.15 Brandon Albert - Good Pick
2.35 Brandon Flowers - Good Pick
3.73 Jamaal Charles - Great Pick
3.76 Brad Cottam - Fucking Bust
3.82 DuJuan Morgan - Fucking Bust
4.105 Will Franklin - LOL I had forgot about this fucking guy. Fucking Bust
5.140 Brandon Carr - Good pick (probably) He did well on a fucking 2 win team but has done fuckall since.
6.170 Barry Richardson - Horribad
6.182 Kevin Robinson - Horribad
7. 210 Brian Johnson - Horribad
7. 239 Mike Merritt - Horribad

AND THIS IS HIS BEST DRAFT BY A FUCKING MILE

And Consider what we gave up: Jared Allen was a BAMF for a very long time, probably as long as Albert and Jamaal were.

Jesus. Given all those picks, a competent GM could have come up with better than:
1 great player - Who Fucking Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards wouldn't even play until Johnson died.
3. Solid players,
1 JAG (That you wasted a fucking 1.5 on.
7 fucking worthless sacks of fucking meat

That is fucking abysmal.

[BlackHelicopters]

I root for TB now.

[chiefzilla1501]

The only good thing Herm ever did was drafting the 2008 draft class.

Vermeil left behind a sinking ship. If Carl Peterson had his way, he would have band-aided the team for 5 more years. It would have left us with no cap space by end of year 5, a bunch of dead weight contracts that left us no cap flexibility. We would have been below average with no room to improve by 2009.

Herm had the balls to go over Peterson's head and wrecking ball the team. Including benching veterans and cutting their dead weight contracts loose. We went from the worst cap situation and the oldest team in the league to the best cap situation and the youngest team in the league. We would have walked into 2009 with a foundational roster, the #3 pick, and $32M+ in cap space (that's practically over $50M+ in today's cap). Tons of cap flexibility. Easy to cut players. Pioli inherited an outstanding situation and he completely duffed it. When you look at our 2009 roster, a great draft and aggressive/effective offseason would have put us a QB away from actually being halfway decent.

[KChiefs1]

I liked Hank & Marty.

[ping2000]

Herm thought offense was a disease that needed to be cured.

[kccrow]

Gunther - Joke
Vermeil - Solid but not tough enough
Edwards - Joke
Haley - Solid with shit to work with. Undetermined
Crennel - Joke

[jspchief]

Herm came in and did the dirty work that needed to be done. He gutted a roster that needed to be gutted. I don't hold any particular ill will towards him. For how long did fans complain about the Chiefs only caring about butts in the seats? Edwards broke that trend with a scorched earth attack on a has-been roster.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Easy 6]

Herm thought offense was a disease that needed to be cured.

LMAO it doesnt get any more succinct or perfect

[Easy 6]

Herm came in and did the dirty work that needed to be done. He gutted a roster that needed to be gutted. I don't hold any particular ill will towards him. For how long did fans complain about the Chiefs only caring about butts in the seats? Edwards broke that trend with a scorched earth attack on a has-been roster.

Wont disagree with a word of that

[big nasty kcnut]

Still hate them.

[oaklandhater]

No.

1.5 Glenn Dorsey - ****ing bust. ****ing God ****ing Awful Mother****ing Shit ****ing pick.
1.15 Brandon Albert - Good Pick
2.35 Brandon Flowers - Good Pick
3.73 Jamaal Charles - Great Pick
3.76 Brad Cottam - ****ing Bust
3.82 DuJuan Morgan - ****ing Bust
4.105 Will Franklin - LOL I had forgot about this ****ing guy. ****ing Bust
5.140 Brandon Carr - Good pick (probably) He did well on a ****ing 2 win team but has done ****all since.
6.170 Barry Richardson - Horribad
6.182 Kevin Robinson - Horribad
7. 210 Brian Johnson - Horribad
7. 239 Mike Merritt - Horribad

AND THIS IS HIS BEST DRAFT BY A ****ING MILE

And Consider what we gave up: Jared Allen was a BAMF for a very long time, probably as long as Albert and Jamaal were.

Jesus. Given all those picks, a competent GM could have come up with better than:
1 great player - Who ****ing Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards wouldn't even play until Johnson died.
3. Solid players,
1 JAG (That you wasted a ****ing 1.5 on.
7 ****ing worthless sacks of ****ing meat

That is ****ing abysmal.


You can hate on the dorsey pick but at the time he was drafted CP loved it and most of the Media thought he was the safest pick in the draft.

[TinyEvel]

Saw Herm at the Ritz Carlton in Lake Tahoe about three years ago, could've walked up to him and said something but after a couple of minutes of thinking while we both waited in line for coffee, I had nothing to say.

[chiefzilla1501]

Herm thought offense was a disease that needed to be cured.

What's interesting about Herm is, much as people remember him for being stubborn about R2P2... he pushed some ideas that were innovative on offense.
Peterson pushed Huard. Herm wanted a strong armed QB in Huard.
Peterson historically brought in broke-dick retread QBs. Herm insisted on developing a QB through the draft (went over Peterson's head to insist on starting Croyle).
Peterson's OC hire was Solari. Herm hired outside of Peterson's cigar club and let Gailey run an aggressive pass first pistol offense (it wasn't a terrible idea given our severe personnel limitations).

Croyle was a swing and a miss but developing a QB in the draft was the right idea. The pistol was a gimmick, but it was creative and it could have evolved into a spread which would have been ahead of its time. And given Herm's history, he probably would have drafted Sanchez in 2009 which despite his limitations would have been a major upgrade over Thigpen. Consider Jamaal just starting to shine by end of 2008 and the $32M in cap space... they actually could have built a semi-decent offense by 2009. I never wanted Herm past 2009 because he will never build a deep playoff team. But I think he was a year or 2 away from having a team that would have been respectable.

[Hammock Parties]

Saw Herm at the Ritz Carlton in Lake Tahoe about three years ago, could've walked up to him and said something but after a couple of minutes of thinking while we both waited in line for coffee, I had nothing to say.

If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Voyager thread

[milkman]

Wrong-o Dungy put together a world class D in Tampa all by himself. Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talked about putting together a tough Defense like they (read: Dungy) did in Tampa while putting out the softest ****ing team I've ever ****ing seen ever.

**** Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards.

Tony Dungy didn't build that Buc defense, John McKay and Monte Kiffen did.

The only difference between Dungy and Herman fucking Edwards was the the talent that was put on the field for them.

Dungy was a mediocre, soft bitch who road coattails, and he has no business in the HoF.

[Demonpenz]

Hailey gave us that bounce gif

[Easy 6]

Hailey gave us that bounce gif

One of the best gifs ever, his glee is contagious

[Frazod]

The only one I hate is Vermeil. How do you squander that offense? Fucking tool. If we'd merely had a bad defense during the Green/Holmes years we'd have won at least one Super Bowl. Instead we had that fuck Robinson and the detards and couldn't win a single playoff game. Way to build half a team, you fucking crying fuck. It's like losing a race when you have the fastest car and the best driver but forget to put gas in it.

:#

[Buehler445]

Vermeil left behind a sinking ship. If Carl Peterson had his way, he would have band-aided the team for 5 more years. It would have left us with no cap space by end of year 5, a bunch of dead weight contracts that left us no cap flexibility. We would have been below average with no room to improve by 2009.

Herm had the balls to go over Peterson's head and wrecking ball the team. Including benching veterans and cutting their dead weight contracts loose. We went from the worst cap situation and the oldest team in the league to the best cap situation and the youngest team in the league. We would have walked into 2009 with a foundational roster, the #3 pick, and $32M+ in cap space (that's practically over $50M+ in today's cap). Tons of cap flexibility. Easy to cut players. Pioli inherited an outstanding situation and he completely duffed it. When you look at our 2009 roster, a great draft and aggressive/effective offseason would have put us a QB away from actually being halfway decent.

I'll agree with the first paragraph, but you are still way the fucking fuck off on the second about this being a good roster to step into. It was fucking terrifucking bad at all but a few starters with piss and fucking shit as depth. Fucking horrible roster. And yay! He sold productive fucking assets and wasted all but like 6 of those picks/assets on fuck. YAY we wasted ALL THE FUCKING ASSETS FROM OUR TEAM. FUCKING YAY.

Yeah, it may have been a reasonable direction to go in but it sure would have been nice if he would have been worth half a squirt of fucking duck shit at personnel and not fucked off EVERY FUCKING ASSET WE FUCKING HAD.

He convinced Carl to blow it up. So fucking what. There were guys all over the league that would have convinced him to do the same thing and would have done a better job of not fucking wasting every fucking asset we had. Probably not me, but for sure you, Dane, Hamas, OTWP, DeezNuts, DJLN, all would have been way fucking better at his job than he was.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards was fucking shit at everything related to football after he returned that goddamned fumble at NYG. Completely fucking worthless.

I am not interested in rehashing all this bullshit you insist on spewing. We've been through it all, and I went through every arbitrary metric you came up with in this thread.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=296702

Herm came in and did the dirty work that needed to be done. He gutted a roster that needed to be gutted. I don't hold any particular ill will towards him. For how long did fans complain about the Chiefs only caring about butts in the seats? Edwards broke that trend with a scorched earth attack on a has-been roster.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Who gives a fuck that he sold every available asset and was such a fucking horrid personnel man, we got virtually nothing in return.

When he came, we had a playoff team. When he left we were a fucking joke. There are people on this site that could have done a better job at every aspect of football he touched.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards is a motherfucking fraud.

You can hate on the dorsey pick but at the time he was drafted CP loved it and most of the Media thought he was the safest pick in the draft.

This fucking board and the media thought Bobby Fucking Sippio was good. Doesn't fucking matter what we all thought. It matters that he was a motherfucking bust and Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt fucking picked him.

I'm giving Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards credit for drafting Jamaal, when I know for a fact he was too motherfucking stupid to know what he had because he didn't give him a single fucking carry until LJ fucking died.

What's interesting about Herm is, much as people remember him for being stubborn about R2P2... he pushed some ideas that were innovative on offense.
Peterson pushed Huard. Herm wanted a strong armed QB in Huard.
Peterson historically brought in broke-dick retread QBs. Herm insisted on developing a QB through the draft (went over Peterson's head to insist on starting Croyle).
Peterson's OC hire was Solari. Herm hired outside of Peterson's cigar club and let Gailey run an aggressive pass first pistol offense (it wasn't a terrible idea given our severe personnel limitations).

Croyle was a swing and a miss but developing a QB in the draft was the right idea. The pistol was a gimmick, but it was creative and it could have evolved into a spread which would have been ahead of its time. And given Herm's history, he probably would have drafted Sanchez in 2009 which despite his limitations would have been a major upgrade over Thigpen. Consider Jamaal just starting to shine by end of 2008 and the $32M in cap space... they actually could have built a semi-decent offense by 2009. I never wanted Herm past 2009 because he will never build a deep playoff team. But I think he was a year or 2 away from having a team that would have been respectable.

Croyle sucked. Gailey hated it here because Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards was goddamned incompetent at every aspect of his fucking job. But if you want to give him credit for the ideas, fine.

He whiffed on all the personnel and did a fuck job of implementing his ideas. Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards is a fucking fraud.

Tony Dungy didn't build that Buc defense, John McKay and Monte Kiffen did.

The only difference between Dungy and Herman fucking Edwards was the the talent that was put on the field for them.

Dungy was a mediocre, soft bitch who road coattails, and he has no business in the HoF.

That could be. I thought Dungy had more control over personnel but it makes sense what you're saying. At least Dungy had the two fucking braincells to rub together to get and keep the right people, in this case Kiffin, I presume McKay hired him?

Maybe Dungy and Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards are closer than I thought.

Right with you though. Dungy is no HOFer. And it's criminal some of the defenses he rolled out there with the Colts being a "defensive guy".

[Buehler445]

The only one I hate is Vermeil. How do you squander that offense? Fucking tool. If we'd merely had a bad defense during the Green/Holmes years we'd have won at least one Super Bowl. Instead we had that fuck Robinson and the detards and couldn't win a single playoff game. Way to build half a team, you fucking crying fuck. It's like losing a race when you have the fastest car and the best driver but forget to put gas in it.

:#

Better than Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. He brought the gas, he just put in in the drivers seat and lit it, torching the car and driver.

Fucking fraud that arrogant bigtiming motherfucker he is.

[Skyy God]

EbolaAIDS.

[TrebMaxx]

Fuck Herm and Crennel, they sucked. I think Haley might have done better if the front office didn't suck so much and limited what he could do.

[chiefzilla1501]

I'll agree with the first paragraph, but you are still way the ****ing **** off on the second about this being a good roster to step into. It was ****ing terri****ing bad at all but a few starters with piss and ****ing shit as depth. ****ing horrible roster. And yay! He sold productive ****ing assets and wasted all but like 6 of those picks/assets on ****. YAY we wasted ALL THE ****ING ASSETS FROM OUR TEAM. ****ING YAY.


Vermeil left Herm with nothing. A bunch of 30+ year olds on really bad, expensive, cap-killing, dead weight contracts. And 5 years of really, really bad drafts so less than a handful of nobodies under 25 worth a damn. We went from the worst cap situation by a mile, to the #1 cap situation ($32M - that's practically $50M+ in today's NFL). We went from the oldest to by far the youngest. And we had the #3 pick in the 2009 draft.

Defense:
-DL - Hali-Dorsey-Ron Edwards-Gilberry/Babin
-LB: Demorrio Williams-Donnie Edwards-DJ
-CB: Carr - Flowers
-Safety: Page - Pollard

Offense:
-OL - Albert-Waters-Niswanger-Wade Smith-Barry Richardson
-RB - Jamaal Charles - LJ
-WR - Bowe + bunch of brokedicks
-QB - Shit [Let's assume we draft Sanchez]
-TE - Tony Gonzalez

Add a receiver, 1-2 DL and 1-2 OL, and a LB or 2 and that's a solid enough roster. With the #3 pick, $32M in cap space, and an immaculate cap situation in 2010 & beyond, that wouldn't have been hard to do. And he did this all in just 3 drafts. And do you have a quote of Gailey saying he hated it in KC? The pistol was Gailey's idea, but Herm allowed him to. If Herm was stubborn about R2P2, why would he let his OC run that offense?


Yeah, it may have been a reasonable direction to go in but it sure would have been nice if he would have been worth half a squirt of ****ing duck shit at personnel and not ****ed off EVERY ****ING ASSET WE ****ING HAD.

He convinced Carl to blow it up. So ****ing what. There were guys all over the league that would have convinced him to do the same thing and would have done a better job of not ****ing wasting every ****ing asset we had. Probably not me, but for sure you, Dane, Hamas, OTWP, DeezNuts, DJLN, all would have been way ****ing better at his job than he was.

You think lots of coaches would have gone over their boss's head to blow this thing up? You think lots of coaches would throw themselves on the sword (tank games and get blamed for being a losing coach) in order to look out for the team's long-term interest? Hunt quickly fired Peterson. He was hesitant to fire Herm. Hunt knew Herm fell on his sword for the good of the team and it seemed like he felt awful about it.

Most coaches would have been afraid to rebel against their GM. And most would gladly band-aid the team to get a few wins vs. having to rebuild. There was only one thing to do it. Blow the team up, use the draft to find a QB, aggressive youth movement. Herm wanted it, Peterson did not.

[CaliforniaChief]

Gunther - Joke

Vermeil - Fucking Joke

Edwards - BIG Fucking Joke

Haley - BIGGER Fucking Joke

Crennel - BIGGEST Fucking Joke

It was a process.

[Buehler445]

Vermeil left Herm with nothing. A bunch of 30+ year olds on really bad, expensive, cap-killing, dead weight contracts. And 5 years of really, really bad drafts so less than a handful of nobodies under 25 worth a damn. We went from the worst cap situation by a mile, to the #1 cap situation ($32M - that's practically $50M+ in today's NFL). We went from the oldest to by far the youngest. And we had the #3 pick in the 2009 draft.

Defense:
-DL - Hali-Dorsey-Ron Edwards-Gilberry/Babin
-LB: Demorrio Williams-Donnie Edwards-DJ
-CB: Carr - Flowers
-Safety: Page - Pollard

Offense:
-OL - Albert-Waters-Niswanger-Wade Smith-Barry Richardson
-RB - Jamaal Charles - LJ
-WR - Bowe + bunch of brokedicks
-QB - Shit [Let's assume we draft Sanchez]
-TE - Tony Gonzalez

Add a receiver, 1-2 DL and 1-2 OL, and a LB or 2 and that's a solid enough roster. With the #3 pick, $32M in cap space, and an immaculate cap situation in 2010 & beyond, that wouldn't have been hard to do. And he did this all in just 3 drafts. And do you have a quote of Gailey saying he hated it in KC? The pistol was Gailey's idea, but Herm allowed him to. If Herm was stubborn about R2P2, why would he let his OC run that offense?




You think lots of coaches would have gone over their boss's head to blow this thing up? You think lots of coaches would throw themselves on the sword (tank games and get blamed for being a losing coach) in order to look out for the team's long-term interest? Hunt quickly fired Peterson. He was hesitant to fire Herm. Hunt knew Herm fell on his sword for the good of the team and it seemed like he felt awful about it.

Most coaches would have been afraid to rebel against their GM. And most would gladly band-aid the team to get a few wins vs. having to rebuild. There was only one thing to do it. Blow the team up, use the draft to find a QB, aggressive youth movement. Herm wanted it, Peterson did not.

Half those fucking guys are fucking trash!

Besides. In that thread I linked, I outlined that goddamned Vermiel that you hate so much had MORE GUYS play 3 years in the league than Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

You're fucking off base now just like you were fucking off base then.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards fucking wrecked the franchise because he is a fraud, grandstanding, know nothing piece of fucking shit.

[chiefzilla1501]

Half those ****ing guys are ****ing trash!

Besides. In that thread I linked, I outlined that goddamned Vermiel that you hate so much had MORE GUYS play 3 years in the league than Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards.

You're ****ing off base now just like you were ****ing off base then.

Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards ****ing wrecked the franchise because he is a fraud, grandstanding, know nothing piece of ****ing shit.

Because Vermeil spent a bajillion dollars on those players in their primes, and then spent a bajillion more until our cap ballooned and exploded. Including an aggressive trade for a veteran QB. Herm inherited the worst cap situation in the NFL, the oldest team in the NFL, and zero cap flexibility because of all the restructured/dead weight contracts Vermeil brought in his last 2 years to try to weasel out a playoff run. Do you realize how many pro bowlers retired within 1-2 years of Herm becoming head coach? Do you realize how many shitty deadweight contracts like Wesley and Woods and Surtain that were passed on for players past their primes?

[Buehler445]

Because Vermeil spent a bajillion dollars on those players in their primes, and then spent a bajillion more until our cap ballooned and exploded. Including an aggressive trade for a veteran QB. Herm inherited the worst cap situation in the NFL, the oldest team in the NFL, and zero cap flexibility because of all the restructured/dead weight contracts Vermeil brought in his last 2 years to try to weasel out a playoff run. Do you realize how many pro bowlers retired within 1-2 years of Herm becoming head coach? Do you realize how many shitty deadweight contracts like Wesley and Woods and Surtain that were passed on for players past their primes?

Dude. Go back through that thread I posted. Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards fucking wrecked the fucking franchise because he is pure shit.

Since you won't do it, you just keep repeating the same wrong fucking shit, here are the players that played 3 more years (YOUR metric) after DV and Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. Most of those guys aren't big dollar guys.

My expectation is that you should have about 45 guys that are legit players. Dorsey can do it, why can't Herm? There are a shitton of guys getting jobs after chiefs now than back then.

And 5 guys? are you kidding me?

Colquitt is still with the Chiefs
LJ played until 2011. Probably would have played longer if your BFF wouldn't have killed him.
Jared Allen is still in the league
Jordan Black played until 2012
Weigman played until 2011
Chris Griffin played until 2010
Keyeron Fox played until 2012
Trent Green played until 2008
Todd Collins played until 2010
Boomer Grigsby played until 2008
Dante Hall played until 2008
Sammy Knight played until 2008.
Kawika Mitchell played until 2010 (and started and won a Super Bowl)
Benny Sapp played until 2011
Sims played until 2010
Gary Still played until 2008
Tynes played until 2012 (and won a Super Bowl) before he almost died
Jimmy Wilkerson played until 2011
Kris Wilson played until 2011


Kendrell Bell made it until 2007
Jason Dunn hung around until 2007
Eric Hicks played until 2007
Greg Wesley played until 2007

According to your metrics, Herm inherited 20 serviceable players and left with 17 (your number not mine)

Dude was shit. At everything. Just because Charles, Hali, Albert came around under his term doesn't mean he wasn't shit.

DV was shit and he gave us DJ and Colquitt.

Pioli was shit and we got Berry and Houston.

A couple good picks doesn't dismiss leaving the team a total shitfest.

EDIT: Link (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2005)

You can click on a player and view their career.

And since you made me look, here are your guys that are "good"


LINK (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/roster/2008)

Wade Smith Played until 2014. Legit.
De La Puenta I didn't find him on the roster on the link.
Barth Still in the league but was horrid. Nobody whined about him leaving
Gafford Still in the league. Legit.
Page played until 2011, but never stayed more than a year, marginal at best
Turk played until 2012. I had no idea. I thought he was done after he went back to Goonther. Legit.
Tank Out of the league after 2009. NOT legit
Studebaker played until 2014, probably legit player
Battle Legit.
Richardson played until 2013, probably a legit player
Ron Edwards Played until 2012, but played 0 snaps in 2011. Not sure he's all world.
McGraw played until 2011, barely snuck in there.
Boone Played until 2010, didn't make the 3 year window that you held DVs guys to.

Take out De Le Puenta, Barth, Tank, and Boone. that leaves Team Herm with 13 guys and Team DV with 20 dudes that played 3 years.

And DV was the one that sold out to win.

The big thing is that DV's list isn't good. You're right there, but the fact that Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards' is far fucking worse AFTER A YOUTH MOVEMENT is fucking criminal mismanagement. And yet, you still fly his fucking banner.

Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards wrecked the fucking franchise.

[Reerun_KC]

Buehler_445 won the internet. It's like reading poetry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cooper barrett]

I would just like top read a sentence that didn't have 20 sets of "****" in it

[T-post Tom]

I've met Herm. Very genuine and personable. I like his old school approach to the game and his passion. He did a lot nice things for KC. I think he was the only coach to have the annual football camp for kids. That said, he didn't have a good record as Chiefs' HC. Don't know all the reasons for that, but his qualities as a human being outweigh his win/loss record during his brief stay as Chiefs' HC. At least for me.

"A coach's main job is to make sure a team is prepared," Pro Bowl guard Brian Waters, one of the Chiefs' few veterans, said shortly before the team ended its season. "There is no doubt that this team has been well prepared every week. Herm and the coaches can't go onto the field and make plays. That's up to the players, and that's just something we haven't done this year. In no way do I think Herm is responsible for our record."

[chiefzilla1501]

Dude. Go back through that thread I posted. Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards ****ing wrecked the ****ing franchise because he is pure shit.

Since you won't do it, you just keep repeating the same wrong ****ing shit, here are the players that played 3 more years (YOUR metric) after DV and Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards. Most of those guys aren't big dollar guys.

I'm not going to answer because it's not the point. Most of those guys you listed were back of the roster shit sandwiches or career special teamers. But if you play by the same rules Vermeil had 22 (drafted/dumpster signings) in 5 years, Herm had 21 in 3 years.

But back to the main point. It's not apples to apples. Vermeil is a better coach, Dorsey is better at personnel. Duh. But put Vermeil in Herm's situation. Vermeil chose to win now and aggressively trade for 2 proven QBs, Herm chose to build through the draft. Vermeil went after first wave free agents, Herm went mostly after 2nd/3rd wave (and made about 5 less "huge splash" moves than Vermeil). Vermeil carried over a lot of Gunther's roster, Herm purged it - only 5 legit carryovers by 2009.

Put a proven legit QB on Herm's 2008 roster. Add 5 high priced free agents to the starting roster I showed you. Holdover 10 more young depth guys. Yeah, that makes a very, very big difference and it also gets you close to the 45 you demanded. But Herm didn't do that. He chose restraint. And in doing so, by 2009 he got rid of a ton of shitty contracts, opened up $32M+ in cap space, and a very young roster. Peterson would have never have done that. In 2009, we'd be a 7-9 team in a shitty cap situation with a bunch of old farts if he had this way.

[Iconic]

Haley was ****ing awful some of you suffer from a warped version of stockholm syndrome.

[Buehler445]

I'm not going to answer because it's not the point. Most of those guys you listed were back of the roster shit sandwiches or career special teamers. But if you play by the same rules Vermeil had 22 (drafted/dumpster signings) in 5 years, Herm had 21 in 3 years.

Not sure what you're getting at. I was following the rules that you set out in the other thread when you asserted that Herm was a "great" personnel man.

Whatever your definition is now to support your ridiculous assessment, the fact that Herm is even in the same ballpark as DV is still abysmal because if he dumps everybody and drafts or dumpster dives 80% of the roster and only 21 can stick in the league - mostly as scrubs - is horrible horrible management. Just abysmal.

But back to the main point. It's not apples to apples. Vermeil is a better coach, Dorsey is better at personnel. Duh. But put Vermeil in Herm's situation. Vermeil chose to win now and aggressively trade for 2 proven QBs, Herm chose to build through the draft. Vermeil went after first wave free agents, Herm went mostly after 2nd/3rd wave (and made about 5 less "huge splash" moves than Vermeil). Vermeil carried over a lot of Gunther's roster, Herm purged it - only 5 legit carryovers by 2009.

I don't even know what you're getting at. Herm decided to blow the thing - sucked horribly at it- so he gets a pass? What the fuck man?

DV at his age wasn't rebuilding anything. Carl knew it. Lamar knew it. We all knew it. And there were only 5 carry overs because Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards dumped everyone that could play.

So what? Herm decided to build through the draft. Lots of guys thought the same thing and were horrible at it.

Put a proven legit QB on Herm's 2008 roster. Add 5 high priced free agents to the starting roster I showed you. Holdover 10 more young depth guys. Yeah, that makes a very, very big difference and it also gets you close to the 45 you demanded. But Herm didn't do that. He chose restraint. And in doing so, by 2009 he got rid of a ton of shitty contracts, opened up $32M+ in cap space, and a very young roster. Peterson would have never have done that. In 2009, we'd be a 7-9 team in a shitty cap situation with a bunch of old farts if he had this way.

LOL no. Herms 2008 roster was garbage.

Dorsey? Scrub
Ron Edwards? Scrub
Donnie Edwards? Mostly dead.
Demorrio Williams? Scrub
Page? Scrub
Pollard? Scrub
Wade Smith? Scrub
Barry Richardson? Scrub
LJ? Done.

Those guys are all scrubs. Not starters. I know that because hose guys didn't do shit in the league. After getting starter reps on film if they could do anything someone would have given them a shot.

So your assertion, like all the other ones you've abandoned is off base. You can't put a roster together of scrubs, 5 FA, and a QB and be any good.

[RunKC]

I hope Andy stays for another 7-10 years and then has someone He believes in taking over.

At this juncture, I wouldn't mind entertaining Britt Reid as a potential replacement one day. After what we've been through, we need to appreciate Andy.

[Danguardace]

Herm Edwards - AIDS
Todd Haley - HIV
Romeo Crennel - Ass Cancer

[Shaid]

Herm...couldn't stand him then, even less so now.

Haley...I always kinda liked him. His teams seemed to play hard. Too bad all he had was Casshole.

Romeo...that season has been erased from my memory.

This is where I am. I still believe Haley could have done something if he wasn't handcuffed with his QB/GM situation.

[Buehler445]

I hope Andy stays for another 7-10 years and then has someone He believes in taking over.

At this juncture, I wouldn't mind entertaining Britt Reid as a potential replacement one day. After what we've been through, we need to appreciate Andy.

Agreed.

Reid takes some heat and deserves to. But he's worlds better than what we've had.

And maybe the approach we share isn't right. Simple truth is those 3 guys have no business running a team and it's criminal our ownership/management was too dumb to figure it out. The correct answer is to hold ownership to a higher standard, but given where we've been I'll take Reid.

[Molitoth]

While I'm not convinced Todd Haley makes a good NFL head coach, he is def a personality I'd want on my team in some sort of role. I think he's done a fine job in Arizona and Pitt, but with KC he was hamstrung by a dickhead GM and forced a shitty QB in which he wanted nothing to do with. Starting Palko seemed to be a big middle finger to Scott Pioli. Dressing and looking like a bum seemed to be a big middle finger to Scott Pioli. Anyone who gives the big middle finger to Scott Pioli is cool with me. **** that guy. Was it a good hire? No. Scott Pioli wanted a "yes" man and Todd wasn't that guy. Oil and water.

Cheers to Todd Haley.



Sperm Edwards offense of RRPP was absolutely terrible to watch. The thing with Herm is that he came out and said he had to tear it all down in order to start over with our OLD ass personnel. He drafted a bunch of young players and let them play, setting up some really great talent to be wasted in the following years by Scott Pioli.

Romeo Crennel was such a butt**** hire. He was the dumbest coach I've ever heard in a press conf and had zero control over any of the team. Arguably The worst season in professional sports history.

[gblowfish]

Herm Edwards: Got one team to the playoffs and got smoked. I think he's a good man, and I think he's better as an analyst and broadcaster than a head coach. I think he's in a comfortable place now, and he seems happy. He would make an OK defensive backs coach, but I woudn't hire him as a DC or a HC.

Todd Haley: Got one team to the playoffs and got smoked. I think he's a despicable person. You can tell that by the story of how he trashed his rental house in Pittsburgh. I know he was a bold face liar from my personal experience with him. I think he's a good OC, but he does not have the character to be a HC. Trust him as far as I could throw his golf clubs.

Romeo Crennel: Biggest win was knocking off Green Bay to end their perfect season. Otherwise his teams were Ass. He was HC during the Belcher disaster. Undeniably a fabulous DC. He's had success as a DC everywhere he's gone. Not so much as a HC. Didn't deal well with the media. He's kind of a grandfather figure to players, but he just doesn't have the skill set to succeed as a HC. The whole putting up signs saying "Eliminate Bad Football" was emblematic of his rudderless style as HC. Gunther was the same way. Fabulous DC, Peter Principle to kick him up to HC.

[chiefzilla1501]

Not sure what you're getting at. I was following the rules that you set out in the other thread when you asserted that Herm was a "great" personnel man.

Whatever your definition is now to support your ridiculous assessment, the fact that Herm is even in the same ballpark as DV is still abysmal because if he dumps everybody and drafts or dumpster dives 80% of the roster and only 21 can stick in the league - mostly as scrubs - is horrible horrible management. Just abysmal.



I don't even know what you're getting at. Herm decided to blow the thing - sucked horribly at it- so he gets a pass? What the **** man?

DV at his age wasn't rebuilding anything. Carl knew it. Lamar knew it. We all knew it. And there were only 5 carry overs because Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards dumped everyone that could play.

So what? Herm decided to build through the draft. Lots of guys thought the same thing and were horrible at it.



LOL no. Herms 2008 roster was garbage.

Dorsey? Scrub
Ron Edwards? Scrub
Donnie Edwards? Mostly dead.
Demorrio Williams? Scrub
Page? Scrub
Pollard? Scrub
Wade Smith? Scrub
Barry Richardson? Scrub
LJ? Done.

Those guys are all scrubs. Not starters. I know that because hose guys didn't do shit in the league. After getting starter reps on film if they could do anything someone would have given them a shot.

So your assertion, like all the other ones you've abandoned is off base. You can't put a roster together of scrubs, 5 FA, and a QB and be any good.

Those are insane standards. We're not talking about a super bowl contender. We're talking about a team competitive in 2009. Vermeil always had 10 starters or so you call "scrubs" much much worse than a Wade Smith or pollard.

A legit qb would have been a huge upgrade with gonzo, bowe, Jamaal as pro bowl caliber weapons. The defense was a few pieces away from being respectable. This roster with a good offseason in 2009 would have been at least a contender for 8-8.

[Simply Red]

Vermeil wasn't too bad at strategy - offensively - but we all regret the Emo Chiefs' yrs.

[King_Chief_Fan]

They were promoted above their ability,
They are decent coordinators,

[Dave Lane]

I liked Haley, but am glad we have Reid now.

This is the correct answer.

Herm hideous worst Chiefs coach ever and not close.
Haley saddled with a crazy GM who knows but liked aggressive approach
Romeo wow, not a bad coach but may as well been a wooden Indian

[WhiteWhale]

The only one I hate is Vermeil. How do you squander that offense? ****ing tool. If we'd merely had a bad defense during the Green/Holmes years we'd have won at least one Super Bowl. Instead we had that **** Robinson and the detards and couldn't win a single playoff game. Way to build half a team, you ****ing crying ****. It's like losing a race when you have the fastest car and the best driver but forget to put gas in it.

:#

I think people forget how bad the personnel was on the defensive side.

Who was KC's best defender prior to drafting Jared Allen?

Eric Hicks? Greg Wesley?

Every time a RB broke through the line you knew KC's DB's would take shit angles and turn a 15 yard gain into a 70 yard TD run.

Pollard was the goddamn king of terrible angles.

[Titty Meat]

Vermiel was burnt out after 03' he was alright, Crennel is the worst coach in franchise history, Haley was a golfer who wasn't respected by his players. Herm was a shit coach but probably not as bad as his record. He walked into an obvious rebuild.

[Buehler445]

Those are insane standards. We're not talking about a super bowl contender. We're talking about a team competitive in 2009. Vermeil always had 10 starters or so you call "scrubs" much much worse than a Wade Smith or pollard.

A legit qb would have been a huge upgrade with gonzo, bowe, Jamaal as pro bowl caliber weapons. The defense was a few pieces away from being respectable. This roster with a good offseason in 2009 would have been at least a contender for 8-8.

If you can't see how one of the worst OL in the league would field a competitive team with a rookie QB and a terrible defense is competitive I have no idea what to tell you.

Look man. I get it. Herm blew it up and tried to build through the draft. That's what you wanted to do. He picked guys that had some upside and you were excited to watch them develop.

But you have to look at this thing objectively. He was bad at it. Terrible in fact. You have to quit giving the guy a pass because you saw potential. Those guys are trash. Herm wrecked the franchise.

[Rausch]

When will that be?

Never.

He's a dick and his players mostly (outside of Warner and Fitz) hate him.

[Bowser]

2003 was/is the best chiefs team ever Vermeil was not a joke WTF

https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/haha-no-gif-2.gif

Not even close. Not even close at all. As all-world and high scoring and exciting those offenses were to watch, and they were, those defenses were equally as terribad. How in the hell do you let Greg Robinson and those slap dicks keep trotting out there week after week knowing there was literally no lead that was safe while they were allowed to keep doing what they did? Horrible. Inexcusable.

Now, if you want to put that '03 offense together with the '95 defense, then you've got something. But you can't, so you don't.

[chiefzilla1501]

If you can't see how one of the worst OL in the league would field a competitive team with a rookie QB and a terrible defense is competitive I have no idea what to tell you.

Look man. I get it. Herm blew it up and tried to build through the draft. That's what you wanted to do. He picked guys that had some upside and you were excited to watch them develop.

But you have to look at this thing objectively. He was bad at it. Terrible in fact. You have to quit giving the guy a pass because you saw potential. Those guys are trash. Herm wrecked the franchise.

The Chiefs had two paths after Herm's first season. Peterson's band-aid approach or Herm's "rip the band-aid off" approach. Even if you think Herm's roster was a failure, his failure would have been miles better than Peterson's success. Because 3 years into the rebuild, Herm's team was in a position to sprint while Peterson's cap would have been on life support. And for what? A more acceptable 7-9 season? I was tired of mediocre wave 2 free agents starting over 22 year olds because they were safer. I'm still tired of our long line of retread QBs. I was tired of being sold in to 8-8 as being acceptable because at least we didn't suck.

And no, I don't care if all young guys develop. You want young players in a rebuild because you can easily cut them. It was to clean the team's messy finances to put ourselves in a position to spend on wave 1 free agents. And I certainly have no delusions about how many players you can bring in by relying almost entirely on the draft and scrap haul guys instead of taking the easy free agent route.

I don't understand how a team that went from oldest to youngest, worst cap situation to best cap situation ($32M+), and that was sitting on the #3 pick is in any way a wrecked franchise.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Um, because it's a good 'ol boys club..

Also, Andy Reid is the best coach this franchise has ever had.

[Ming the Merciless]

among the lessons learned...some of these guys were great coordinators but shitty HC's..so its clear that being a HC is much more difficult

Haley - great offensive coordinator
Crenell was good DC from what I recall

[PAChiefsGuy]

Haley - Bad
Romeo - Bad
Herm - Average
Vermeil - Good

I don't get all the Vermeil hate. He was a hell of HC especially with the offense... He rebuilt the team and the players loved him. We caught him at the end of his career which was unfortunate but if we got him when he was younger I can almost grantee he'd gotten us at least to the SB.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Dick and Marty boring and even more boringer. Andy Reid is the only shimmer of light.

[Buehler445]

They were promoted above their ability,
They are decent coordinators,

Squirmin Sherman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards was never a coordinator. Ever. And I'm certain he's bad at that too.

The Chiefs had two paths after Herm's first season. Peterson's band-aid approach or Herm's "rip the band-aid off" approach. Even if you think Herm's roster was a failure, his failure would have been miles better than Peterson's success. Because 3 years into the rebuild, Herm's team was in a position to sprint while Peterson's cap would have been on life support. And for what? A more acceptable 7-9 season? I was tired of mediocre wave 2 free agents starting over 22 year olds because they were safer. I'm still tired of our long line of retread QBs. I was tired of being sold in to 8-8 as being acceptable because at least we didn't suck.

And no, I don't care if all young guys develop. You want young players in a rebuild because you can easily cut them. It was to clean the team's messy finances to put ourselves in a position to spend on wave 1 free agents. And I certainly have no delusions about how many players you can bring in by relying almost entirely on the draft and scrap haul guys instead of taking the easy free agent route.

I don't understand how a team that went from oldest to youngest, worst cap situation to best cap situation ($32M+), and that was sitting on the #3 pick is in any way a wrecked franchise.

You can think that if you want but you're wrong. Absolutely wrong. Like wrong wrong.

Best example is our own chiefs. We went out and went from tire fire to playoffs in 2013. And it took cap to do it. So the last couple years we've been in cap hell. So what do the chiefs do? They make some cap casualties. But they didn't throw their hands up and say FUCK THIS WE ARE WHACKING EVERYBODY. It doesn't have to be binary. That piece of football garbage chose nuke. He sucked terribly at it. He has to own it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Herm was absolutely clueless on game day, and his short-sighted reliance on LJ ruined a damned good back with the most insane workload in NFL history. He was a system coach and a motivational charlatan. Those guys never work unless they are propped up by someone else's talent.

Haley was and is unprepared to be an NFL HC. He's decent enough as an OC, but let's not act like he has somehow fixed Ben Roethlisberger or made him better. Ben's line became one of the best in the NFL while adding the best RB in the game and a top-3 WR. Those teams should put up far, far more points than they do. They have the best skill position talent in the NFL. And he didn't do anything to fix Dwayne Bowe, who was excellent his first two years here.

Romeo was Patriots inbreeding, just like 99% of what Pioli did. Rich Kotite has been the go-to joke for bad NFL coaches for over 20 years, but Crennel is far, far worse. Crennel is one of the worst coaches/managers in the history of professional sports.

[Boon]

Sperm, Haley, Romeo were never cut out to be head coaches. They did their best as assistants and coordinators.

[chiefzilla1501]

Squirmin Sherman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards was never a coordinator. Ever. And I'm certain he's bad at that too.



You can think that if you want but you're wrong. Absolutely wrong. Like wrong wrong.

Best example is our own chiefs. We went out and went from tire fire to playoffs in 2013. And it took cap to do it. So the last couple years we've been in cap hell. So what do the chiefs do? They make some cap casualties. But they didn't throw their hands up and say **** THIS WE ARE WHACKING EVERYBODY. It doesn't have to be binary. That piece of football garbage chose nuke. He sucked terribly at it. He has to own it.

Our situation in 2013 isn't even REMOTELY close to the situation in 2006. C'mon. There was only one way for the Chiefs to do 2006. They had to blow it up. Period.

The Chiefs situation was bad in 2003. And then for the next 3 years they drunkenly spent on credit. Backloading contracts, restructuring huge contracts to backload.

Dorsey didn't inherit the worst cap in football. Pioli kept a great and gave Dorsey $21M in space in 2013 and he spent a ton of it. Dorsey didn't inherit the oldest team in football, Herm did. Dorsey was not stuck with a lot of terrible guaranteed contracts, Herm was. And if Herm traded in 2006 for a franchise QB, the way Dorsey did, sorry but that would have been the dumbest possible move the Chiefs could have made.

If Herm tried to limp the team along in 2007, THAT would have wrecked the franchise. Thankfully he didn't.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Andy Reid will see this franchise to a Lombardi SuperBowl win and I care not about the rest of your silly inquisition..

[Eleazar]

Herm Edwards was completely clueless. Romeo and Haley were fit to be coordinators at least. It's amazing that Edwards ever rose above a position coach.

[Buehler445]

Our situation in 2013 isn't even REMOTELY close to the situation in 2006. C'mon. There was only one way for the Chiefs to do 2006. They had to blow it up. Period.

The Chiefs situation was bad in 2003. And then for the next 3 years they drunkenly spent on credit. Backloading contracts, restructuring huge contracts to backload.

Dorsey didn't inherit the worst cap in football. Pioli kept a great and gave Dorsey $21M in space in 2013 and he spent a ton of it. Dorsey didn't inherit the oldest team in football, Herm did. Dorsey was not stuck with a lot of terrible guaranteed contracts, Herm was. And if Herm traded in 2006 for a franchise QB, the way Dorsey did, sorry but that would have been the dumbest possible move the Chiefs could have made.

If Herm tried to limp the team along in 2007, THAT would have wrecked the franchise. Thankfully he didn't.

Of course they aren't the same. You know that I know better than that. But after Dorsey fired both barrels to try to get the Franchise back to non-joke status it is bad NOW. we have the worst cap in the league. And we aren't the oldest roster in football but we have a whole fucking mess of underproducing assets (hopefully ones like Houston turn that around) and a lot of bad contracts.

Fortunately the guys up front now aren't bumbling fucking idiots like your boy and can get productivity out of lower paid guys.

Like everything else in this discussion you missed the point. What I was getting at (and explicitly stated) that it isn't binary. The only 2 options weren't more of the same or nuke it from orbit. It never is. Maybe it's trade prime LJ for picks you can leverage to a QB. Maybe it's trade prime Gonzo. Maybe it's aging Roaf, maybe it's JA. Or whatever. It isn't ever binary.

Yeah. It wasn't great. But it's not great now and we seem to be getting by without mortgaging the future or nuking it from orbit.

Look. Herm chose his path. He then biffed it worse than Scott Tolzien did Sunday. He has to wear it. That's just the breaks man.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Herm was brilliant with players. Herm was brilliant with players because he played a position. He was an over glorified position coach.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I don't know how anyone can say the Allen trade wasn't a huge win for Carl/Kuharich. He got several years of very good LT play at below market value and arguably the best back in franchise history for one year of a guy that was another DUI from a year-long suspension. If you want to blame Carl for the deterioration of Allen, you also have to remember that Jared was incredibly immature and irresponsible at that time. It's too bad that Cottam was made of papier-mache. He could have been a good player.

[Buehler445]

I don't know how anyone can say the Allen trade wasn't a huge win for Carl/Kuharich. He got several years of very good LT play at below market value and arguably the best back in franchise history for one year of a guy that was another DUI from a year-long suspension. If you want to blame Carl for the deterioration of Allen, you also have to remember that Jared was incredibly immature and irresponsible at that time. It's too bad that Cottam was made of papier-mache. He could have been a good player.

Nobody said the JA trade was a bad one. But Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards biffed a fucking mountain of picks/UDFA/FA. Looking at his final roster there is no way to conclude anything different.

[Eleazar]

I don't know how anyone can say the Allen trade wasn't a huge win for Carl/Kuharich. He got several years of very good LT play at below market value and arguably the best back in franchise history for one year of a guy that was another DUI from a year-long suspension. If you want to blame Carl for the deterioration of Allen, you also have to remember that Jared was incredibly immature and irresponsible at that time. It's too bad that Cottam was made of papier-mache. He could have been a good player.

The Jared Allen trade was a win on the day it was made, and a win of epic proportions in hindsight.

[chiefzilla1501]

Of course they aren't the same. You know that I know better than that. But after Dorsey fired both barrels to try to get the Franchise back to non-joke status it is bad NOW. we have the worst cap in the league. And we aren't the oldest roster in football but we have a whole ****ing mess of underproducing assets (hopefully ones like Houston turn that around) and a lot of bad contracts.

Fortunately the guys up front now aren't bumbling ****ing idiots like your boy and can get productivity out of lower paid guys.

Like everything else in this discussion you missed the point. What I was getting at (and explicitly stated) that it isn't binary. The only 2 options weren't more of the same or nuke it from orbit. It never is. Maybe it's trade prime LJ for picks you can leverage to a QB. Maybe it's trade prime Gonzo. Maybe it's aging Roaf, maybe it's JA. Or whatever. It isn't ever binary.

Yeah. It wasn't great. But it's not great now and we seem to be getting by without mortgaging the future or nuking it from orbit.

Look. Herm chose his path. He then biffed it worse than Scott Tolzien did Sunday. He has to wear it. That's just the breaks man.

The decision was as binary as you're going to get. The right decision was to blow the team up in 2006. Period. There is no comparison whatsoever today vs. 2006. 2006 was our messy 2017 cap situation times 100. And many coaches wouldn't have the balls to do it. It would have taken an elite GM to shovel us out in a few years any other way.

Was our execution perfect? No. Nobody said it was. Did anyone say Herm/Kuharich were exec of the year? No. Maybe there was a trade or 2 they could have made. A draft pick they missed, a contract they shouldn't sign. But the strategy was right, it was our most aggressive commitment to a rebuild in history, and our personnel decisions were effective enough and even if they were bad... so what? I'd rather be a few players short than have a mediocre, declining roster completely strapped for cash. And it's a lot more forgivable when you're doing it with pocket change, where Vermeil was cutting blank checks. What was Vermeil's legacy? He had 2 extra years, inherited a clean situation, had 5 years of drunk free agent spending, and he left behind 1 playoff loss, a declining roster, and a lot of dead bodies to clean up. And yet Herm takes the brunt of the blame for Vermeil's mistakes. The cap situation and roster age did a complete 180 under Herm, which is what he set out to do. Maybe one of the biggest 180s in NFL history. The positive of that far outweighs the negative of biffing a few personnel moves.

[Buehler445]

The decision was as binary as you're going to get. The right decision was to blow the team up in 2006. Period. There is no comparison whatsoever today vs. 2006. 2006 was our messy 2017 cap situation times 100. And many coaches wouldn't have the balls to do it. It would have taken an elite GM to shovel us out in a few years any other way.

Was our execution perfect? No. Nobody said it was. Did anyone say Herm/Kuharich were exec of the year? No. Maybe there was a trade or 2 they could have made. A draft pick they missed, a contract they shouldn't sign. But the strategy was right, it was our most aggressive commitment to a rebuild in history, and our personnel decisions were effective enough and even if they were bad... so what? I'd rather be a few players short than have a mediocre, declining roster completely strapped for cash. And it's a lot more forgivable when you're doing it with pocket change, where Vermeil was cutting blank checks. What was Vermeil's legacy? He had 2 extra years, inherited a clean situation, had 5 years of drunk free agent spending, and he left behind 1 playoff loss, a declining roster, and a lot of dead bodies to clean up. And yet Herm takes the brunt of the blame for Vermeil's mistakes. The cap situation and roster age did a complete 180 under Herm, which is what he set out to do. Maybe one of the biggest 180s in NFL history. The positive of that far outweighs the negative of biffing a few personnel moves.

If that is what you truly believe, you are helpless.

Getting rid of some of the bad contracts was absolutely necessary. But dumping anybody that had ever even seen a football and operating for multiple years WAAAAY below the salary cap and far below what the salary floor is now is stupid. Hell, there was talk then that they put the floor in BECAUSE Squirm went all stupid in not paying fuckers.

Look. That approach doesn't work. When was the last time a team dumped everybody and it worked out. Colts? Sure they got Luck, but they then killed him and are sucking balls again.

Faid? Maybe, but they didn't absolutely dump everybody. They just finally got rid of their dumbass contracts and drafted some good players. And right there is the key. You have to get good players.

Look, I don't know if you're dense or what, but it ABSOLUTELY takes an elite GM to build a good team, no matter what the situation. If you don't get that, then...man.

And what's this shit about A FEW bad personnel decisions. ALMOST HALF THE TEAM DIDN'T PLAY ANOTHER SNAP. Jesus fuck man. This team was pure and utter shit. And Herm was at the helm. I don't care how much you want to blame on DV (who, coincidentally was not a fraud). HERM DID IT. The franchise was wrecked on his watch.

[MahiMike]

Vermiel still our best coach ever. All the guys in the OP suck.

[chiefzilla1501]

Vermiel still our best coach ever. All the guys in the OP suck.

Vermeil made one single playoff game. And he not only asked for the moon, he saddled us with debt to spend on players. And what did we get from it? One playoff loss in 5 years. Reid has been here 5 years and has a playoff win and 2 extra playoff appearances. How is Vermeil even close to Reid at this point?

[chiefzilla1501]

If that is what you truly believe, you are helpless.

Getting rid of some of the bad contracts was absolutely necessary. But dumping anybody that had ever even seen a football and operating for multiple years WAAAAY below the salary cap and far below what the salary floor is now is stupid. Hell, there was talk then that they put the floor in BECAUSE Squirm went all stupid in not paying ****ers.

Look. That approach doesn't work. When was the last time a team dumped everybody and it worked out. Colts? Sure they got Luck, but they then killed him and are sucking balls again.

Faid? Maybe, but they didn't absolutely dump everybody. They just finally got rid of their dumbass contracts and drafted some good players. And right there is the key. You have to get good players.

Look, I don't know if you're dense or what, but it ABSOLUTELY takes an elite GM to build a good team, no matter what the situation. If you don't get that, then...man.

And what's this shit about A FEW bad personnel decisions. ALMOST HALF THE TEAM DIDN'T PLAY ANOTHER SNAP. Jesus **** man. This team was pure and utter shit. And Herm was at the helm. I don't care how much you want to blame on DV (who, coincidentally was not a fraud). HERM DID IT. The franchise was wrecked on his watch.

If the Chiefs didn't blow that team up it would have taken a few extra years to rebuild. Period.

Our 2006 cap situation wasn't some ordinary cap problem, much as you make it out to be. It was a disaster of Dan Snyder proportions. I don't know if I'm more amazed at your shrugging off how much Vermeil ****ed us, or that you've transferred all of that blame to an irrational hatred for Herm Edwards. We were already in salary cap hell and Vermeil chose to sign Bell, Knight, Surtain, Carlos Hall to mega contracts all the while restructuring Green and company to extremely cap killing backloaded deals. So you think Herm wrecked the franchise because he didn't get a few extra players, but you don't see any issue with what Vermeil did in 2005. Interesting. Because our actions in 2005 was easily the most destructive in our team's history.

[Reerun_KC]

After DV til Reid were the dark ages. Not one fuck is give about anything during that time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Herm Edwards was a shit coach because he wanted to be BFF's with his players. He was a good coach in a specific strata, but yeah, he was HORRIBLE as a head coach and history accurately reflects that..

[Buehler445]

If the Chiefs didn't blow that team up it would have taken a few extra years to rebuild. Period.

Our 2006 cap situation wasn't some ordinary cap problem, much as you make it out to be. It was a disaster of Dan Snyder proportions. I don't know if I'm more amazed at your shrugging off how much Vermeil ****ed us, or that you've transferred all of that blame to an irrational hatred for Herm Edwards. We were already in salary cap hell and Vermeil chose to sign Bell, Knight, Surtain, Carlos Hall to mega contracts all the while restructuring Green and company to extremely cap killing backloaded deals. So you think Herm wrecked the franchise because he didn't get a few extra players, but you don't see any issue with what Vermeil did in 2005. Interesting. Because our actions in 2005 was easily the most destructive in our team's history.

I never said I liked what DV did, I just merely said he wasn't a fraud like your butt buddy. Those contracts were bad and needed to be dumped. And they were going to have to work through the dead money, but FFS, to think that 2-14 and a joke of a motherfucking franchise is the only way is just motherfucking asinine.

I honestly don't know what to tell you if you can't look at the actions of Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards and think it is anything but wrecking the fucking franchise.

There were seriously like 20 dudes that could fucking play. Not well, but belonged on a football field.

I really don't know what to tell you man.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Talk about idiots. Anybody ever google these coaches and the shit tree they come from..

[chiefzilla1501]

I never said I liked what DV did, I just merely said he wasn't a fraud like your butt buddy. Those contracts were bad and needed to be dumped. And they were going to have to work through the dead money, but FFS, to think that 2-14 and a joke of a mother****ing franchise is the only way is just mother****ing asinine.

I honestly don't know what to tell you if you can't look at the actions of Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards and think it is anything but wrecking the ****ing franchise.

There were seriously like 20 dudes that could ****ing play. Not well, but belonged on a football field.

I really don't know what to tell you man.

The way most gms find the other 33 dudes is holdovers from the last guys roster and by bringing in a ton of experienced veteran free agents. Dorsey and veech have spoiled us into thinking we can find 4 or 5 studs in every draft and find quality players out of other teams cuts. Even with Dorsey, do you realize how many free agents he brought in in 2013? 12, most at decent $s. Herm had about half over three years let alone 1 year. Dorsey had 10 3-year holdovers, herm had 7 (2 there only because of dead money). So right off the bat Dorsey had 20+ decent roster guys without even touching the draft/ufa/dumpster pile.

If you were to strip free agency for 2 - 3 years, how many gms are going to find 20 good players? I think you're understating how difficult it is. We could have traded for a QB that would have instantly made us much better. We could have thrown in 5 to 10 veteran free agents. But we didn't. And I'm glad we didn't. They would have made the rebuild more tolerable but would have set us back for no good reason at all.

[Best22]

Vermiel still our best coach ever. All the guys in the OP suck.

Stram, Schottenheimer, and Reid were all far better coaches for KC.

[Buehler445]

The way most gms find the other 33 dudes is holdovers from the last guys roster and by bringing in a ton of experienced veteran free agents. Dorsey and veech have spoiled us into thinking we can find 4 or 5 studs in every draft and find quality players out of other teams cuts. Even with Dorsey, do you realize how many free agents he brought in in 2013? 12, most at decent $s. Herm had about half over three years let alone 1 year. Dorsey had 10 3-year holdovers, herm had 7 (2 there only because of dead money). So right off the bat Dorsey had 20+ decent roster guys without even touching the draft/ufa/dumpster pile.

If you were to strip free agency for 2 - 3 years, how many gms are going to find 20 good players? I think you're understating how difficult it is. We could have traded for a QB that would have instantly made us much better. We could have thrown in 5 to 10 veteran free agents. But we didn't. And I'm glad we didn't. They would have made the rebuild more tolerable but would have set us back for no good reason at all.

You keep saying shit like this as if Herm wrecking the fucking franchise DIDN'T. It absolutely did. The team was terrible.

You keep saying FA is a bad thing. It isn't . Not all FA have to be Patrick Surtain type contracts. He could have picked up some cheap Terrance Mitchell type contracts.

Sure, he piled up a bunch of cap space, but FFS you can't use it all in one year anyway. No FA class has ever been that good. So he essentially wasted it. That's OUTSIDE of him wasting it because the team was a joke.

Teams can heal their cap situation without being absolute fucking jokes.

We've just never done it because we've had jackasses running the franchise since you and I were born. But just because it is different than what has been doesn't mean it is good.

Herm fucked up bad.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Schottenheimer was a prototypcial coach that you could only hope that you had back in the late 80's early nineties.. Schott was great because he was a good man, also an excellent coach because he was a leader and his men loved him.

Andy Reid is blessed in that his abilities as a coach cannot be measured. If you've ever had the opportunity to have had someone like that in your life you'll just nod and agree with me.

[chiefzilla1501]

You keep saying shit like this as if Herm wrecking the ****ing franchise DIDN'T. It absolutely did. The team was terrible.

You keep saying FA is a bad thing. It isn't . Not all FA have to be Patrick Surtain type contracts. He could have picked up some cheap Terrance Mitchell type contracts.

Sure, he piled up a bunch of cap space, but FFS you can't use it all in one year anyway. No FA class has ever been that good. So he essentially wasted it. That's OUTSIDE of him wasting it because the team was a joke.

Teams can heal their cap situation without being absolute ****ing jokes.

We've just never done it because we've had jackasses running the franchise since you and I were born. But just because it is different than what has been doesn't mean it is good.

Herm ****ed up bad.

I am not ignoring that. I am pointing out how unrealistic your expectations are for how many players you can bring in using only draft/UFAs. Nobody is saying Herm/Kuharich were outstanding. We have to prove he was above a dumpster fire, which is easy. 20 players using only that route is not a **** up by any stretch, especially considering that he drafted high positional value players, not safe low positional value guys. (LT, #1 WR, 2 CBs, DE).

You want to pad the roster numbers? Add 5-10 special teamers (even though that's stupid for a rebuild). Bring in a career backup QB. A bunch of low potential but stable depth guys. Go the Pioli route and use your top picks on safe OL and role players and gadget players. Hell, trading for a veteran QB like Pennington would have instantly boosted our credibility and stolen a few wins. But what's the point of any of that in a rebuild?

Those are easy opportunities to pad your roster. But for what? So we win 4 games instead of 2 and feel better about ourselves?

[Pueblo Chieftan]

I am not ignoring that. I am pointing out how unrealistic your expectations are for how many players you can bring in using only draft/UFAs. Nobody is saying Herm/Kuharich were outstanding. We have to prove he was above a dumpster fire, which is easy. 20 players using only that route is not a **** up by any stretch, especially considering that he drafted high positional value players, not safe low positional value guys. (LT, #1 WR, 2 CBs, DE).

You want to pad the roster numbers? Add 5-10 special teamers (even though that's stupid for a rebuild). Bring in a career backup QB. A bunch of low potential but stable depth guys. Go the Pioli route and use your top picks on safe OL and role players and gadget players. Hell, trading for a veteran QB like Pennington would have instantly boosted our credibility and stolen a few wins. But what's the point of any of that in a rebuild?

Those are easy opportunities to pad your roster. But for what? So we win 4 games instead of 2 and feel better about ourselves?

Howdy Chief,

Just wondering if you're even old enough to really know what the **** you're talking about. Or, are you just reading stuff egregiously spouting generalities in which you have no real working knowledge?

[chiefzilla1501]

Howdy Chief,

Just wondering if you're even old enough to really know what the **** you're talking about. Or, are you just reading stuff egregiously spouting generalities in which you have no real working knowledge?

Based on your question, I would ask you the same. Or is your opinion completely informed by following the crowd? I guess it's more grown-up to throw wild exaggerations like calling Herm the worst coach of all time, but childish of me to call him an average at best flawed coach who did some things that deserve credit.

[Pueblo Chieftan]

Based on your question, I would ask you the same. Or is your opinion completely informed by following the crowd? I guess it's more grown-up to throw wild exaggerations like calling Herm the worst coach of all time, but childish of me to call him an average at best flawed coach who did some things that deserve credit.

So, the absense of success equates to winning..

[chiefzilla1501]

So, the absense of success equates to winning..

Is short-term winning the only measure of success?

I'd rather lose today to set ourselves to win 12 games 3 years from now than win 7 games for the next 5 years. Sometimes success is about recognizing that good isn't good enough, and that to be great you have to make bolder moves even if it's more painful in the short term.

I also recognize that not all situations are alike. An executive who works at Apple is going to have a much easier time winning than an executive who starts at Yahoo. That doesn't make one more successful than the other.

[WhiteWhale]

I am not ignoring that. I am pointing out how unrealistic your expectations are for how many players you can bring in using only draft/UFAs. Nobody is saying Herm/Kuharich were outstanding. We have to prove he was above a dumpster fire, which is easy. 20 players using only that route is not a **** up by any stretch, especially considering that he drafted high positional value players, not safe low positional value guys. (LT, #1 WR, 2 CBs, DE).

You want to pad the roster numbers? Add 5-10 special teamers (even though that's stupid for a rebuild). Bring in a career backup QB. A bunch of low potential but stable depth guys. Go the Pioli route and use your top picks on safe OL and role players and gadget players. Hell, trading for a veteran QB like Pennington would have instantly boosted our credibility and stolen a few wins. But what's the point of any of that in a rebuild?

Those are easy opportunities to pad your roster. But for what? So we win 4 games instead of 2 and feel better about ourselves?

Doing the bare minimum to improve the roster isn't 'rebuilding'. Every team has draft picks and UFA's.

Doing so while telling fans how bad the team is going to be is just sandbagging a half assed effort.

The best thing Herm got credit for was entirely due to Carl Peterson burning the Jared Allen bridge and piling up picks in an incredibly deep draft. A blind chimp with a dartboard could have snagged 3-4 good players with the 12 or whatever picks KC had.

[el borracho]

Herm was a terrible head coach whose offensive strategy made Marty teams look progressive. And people want to give him credit for starting a rebuild? I might credit Herm with recognition of the problem, but in no way was Herm the right choice to correct the problem. I might recognize that someone needs dental work; that does not make me an oral surgeon. Herm Edwards as your head coach is like going to India to have several dental implant surgeries.

Haley at least was an intriguing possibility. Haley had some success as a coordinator and appeared to have potential. Obviously, that potential never materialized but, then again, what can anyone do with Matt Cassel as your QB? Any normal franchise would have cut Cassel and given Haley a shot with a different QB, but this was Pioli's Chiefs so of course we fired Haley and kept our inept QB.

Crennel was possibly the least inspiring choice for head coach that the Chiefs could have selected and yet there he was. His defensive scheme was dated and he wholeheartedly endorsed Matt Cassel as his QB. I guess the combination of Pioli as GM and Cassel as QB really limits the number (and caliber) of candidates. I would call it career suicide but, really, the NFL had passed Crennel by at that point. I don't blame the guy for collecting a paycheck on the way out the door, but I am sure no one else in the league had Crennel on their short list of Head Coach candidates. He was the worst head coach the Chiefs have had in probably 30 years and that includes Gunther.

[WhiteWhale]

Herm was a terrible head coach whose offensive strategy made Marty teams look progressive. And people want to give him credit for starting a rebuild? I might credit Herm with recognition of the problem, but in no way was Herm the right choice to correct the problem. I might recognize that someone needs dental work; that does not make me an oral surgeon. Herm Edwards as your head coach is like going to India to have several dental implant surgeries.

Haley at least was an intriguing possibility. Haley had some success as a coordinator and appeared to have potential. Obviously, that potential never materialized but, then again, what can anyone do with Matt Cassel as your QB? Any normal franchise would have cut Cassel and given Haley a shot with a different QB, but this was Pioli's Chiefs so of course we fired Haley and kept our inept QB.

Crennel was possibly the least inspiring choice for head coach that the Chiefs could have selected and yet there he was. His defensive scheme was dated and he wholeheartedly endorsed Matt Cassel as his QB. I guess the combination of Pioli as GM and Cassel as QB really limits the number (and caliber) of candidates. I would call it career suicide but, really, the NFL had passed Crennel by at that point. I don't blame the guy for collecting a paycheck on the way out the door, but I am sure no one else in the league had Crennel on their short list of Head Coach candidates. He was the worst head coach the Chiefs have had in probably 30 years and that includes Gunther.

Romeo was a terrible head coach, just as he was before he was in KC.

The NFL has not 'passed him by'. Hes' a solid DC. He's done a decent job in Houston.

He's not really what I'd call a 'top tier' DC. Not the kind that schemes a good defense to an elite defense, but teams aren't worse off having him.

[chiefzilla1501]

Doing the bare minimum to improve the roster isn't 'rebuilding'. Every team has draft picks and UFA's.

Doing so while telling fans how bad the team is going to be is just sandbagging a half assed effort.

The best thing Herm got credit for was entirely due to Carl Peterson burning the Jared Allen bridge and piling up picks in an incredibly deep draft. A blind chimp with a dartboard could have snagged 3-4 good players with the 12 or whatever picks KC had.

The half ass thing to do would have been to trade for a veteran QB (like we've done almost every time for the past 30 years) and to bandaid the roster with a bunch of middling free agents. And it's exactly what Peterson pushed for. It's a "save your ass" strategy because it wins you just enough games not to get fired and it puts butts in seats.

What Herm did was bold. He played rookies over proven veterans. He's the only HC in 30 years to try to start a rookie QB. He went for high risk, high positional value players/playmakers in the draft that landed us a LT, 2 CBs, DE, and #1 WR. These are exactly the things CP has complained we don't do enough of. Yeah, we could have brought in more proven players with a safe strategy. Maybe he should have drafted more first round Guards and Nickel backs. Whether you acknowledge it or not, the effort wasn't fruitless. It was extremely successful at cleaning up a bad financial situation very quickly and there are lots of ways that could have been sabotaged.

[chiefzilla1501]

Romeo was a terrible head coach, just as he was before he was in KC.

The NFL has not 'passed him by'. Hes' a solid DC. He's done a decent job in Houston.

He's not really what I'd call a 'top tier' DC. Not the kind that schemes a good defense to an elite defense, but teams aren't worse off having him.

Now, Romeo is by every definition a terrible coach. As a head coach, he literally brought nothing of value. Good positions coach, okay coordinator, totally unequipped to be a head coach.

[MahiMike]

Vermeil made one single playoff game. And he not only asked for the moon, he saddled us with debt to spend on players. And what did we get from it? One playoff loss in 5 years. Reid has been here 5 years and has a playoff win and 2 extra playoff appearances. How is Vermeil even close to Reid at this point?

Best offense in history is all. .

[MahiMike]

Stram, Schottenheimer, and Reid were all far better coaches for KC.

Stram would be 8-8 in this era. Marty invented marty ball and was never gonna win a title. Reid has a chance to surpass vermiel this year but has 200% talent on defense than vermiel ever had.

[chiefzilla1501]

Stram would be 8-8 in this era. Marty invented marty ball and was never gonna win a title. Reid has a chance to surpass vermiel this year but has 200% talent on defense than vermiel ever had.

Reid surpassed Vermeil a long time ago. I like Vermeil - it was a fun era, but you have to look at the actual results. 1 playoff loss in 5 years and he left behind a sinking Titanic. In 5 years, Reid's already tripled Vermeil and won a playoff game where Vermeil won 1. And unlike Vermeil, he didn't mortgage the future to the point of life support to get there. How could Vermeil possibly be in front of Reid?

[chiefzilla1501]

Stram would be 8-8 in this era. Marty invented marty ball and was never gonna win a title. Reid has a chance to surpass vermiel this year but has 200% talent on defense than vermiel ever had.

But let's not forget that that lack of talent was because of poor talent evaluation, not because he wasn't given the resources. He spent a shitload on that defense to bring in talent that never worked.

[Easy 6]

Reid surpassed Vermeil a long time ago. I like Vermeil - it was a fun era, but you have to look at the actual results. 1 playoff loss in 5 years and he left behind a sinking Titanic. In 5 years, Reid's already tripled Vermeil and won a playoff game where Vermeil won 1. And unlike Vermeil, he didn't mortgage the future to the point of life support to get there. How could Vermeil possibly be in front of Reid?

Yup

Reid > Vermeil and it isnt even close

We played with half a team under Crying Dick

[Buehler445]

The half ass thing to do would have been to trade for a veteran QB (like we've done almost every time for the past 30 years) and to bandaid the roster with a bunch of middling free agents. And it's exactly what Peterson pushed for. It's a "save your ass" strategy because it wins you just enough games not to get fired and it puts butts in seats.

What Herm did was bold. He played rookies over proven veterans. He's the only HC in 30 years to try to start a rookie QB. He went for high risk, high positional value players/playmakers in the draft that landed us a LT, 2 CBs, DE, and #1 WR. These are exactly the things CP has complained we don't do enough of. Yeah, we could have brought in more proven players with a safe strategy. Maybe he should have drafted more first round Guards and Nickel backs. Whether you acknowledge it or not, the effort wasn't fruitless. It was extremely successful at cleaning up a bad financial situation very quickly and there are lots of ways that could have been sabotaged.

Right. He did all that. I acknowledge that. But he was still fuckin horrible and the end result was turning the fucking Franchise into a motherfucking joke.

And you bag on DV for being bad at bringing in defensive guys. At least DV had 2 of 3 phases that were competent. The team Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards built that you are all proud of was abysmal in all 3.

[chiefzilla1501]

Right. He did all that. I acknowledge that. But he was still ****in horrible and the end result was turning the ****ing Franchise into a mother****ing joke.

And you bag on DV for being bad at bringing in defensive guys. At least DV had 2 of 3 phases that were competent. The team Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards built that you are all proud of was abysmal in all 3.

I am not bagging on Vermeil. I liked Vermeil better than Herm. But to make one last run he mortgaged our future again and again until the roster was on life support by the time he left. That's fine, but when he gets almost no blame for the post-Vermeil years and Herm gets the brunt of that blame, that's when the hate for Herm & apologies for Vermeil get nuts.

You know how Vermeil built his offense? He inherited 3 pro bowlers, traded for a pro bowl QB and LT, then brought in proven veterans at C, RB, WR. You know how Dorsey approached year 1? He brought in 10 major free agents and made an aggressive trade for a proven QB. You don't seem to acknowledge anything because if you did, you'd understand that not trading for a QB and not spending in free agency are two HUGE crutches that Herm didn't have. If you understood why we didn't make big moves in free agency, then you wouldn't completely undermine the accomplishment of flipping the cap by $50M and reversing our average age by 10 years... I can understand if you think we underachieved in the draft/UFA. But the idea that these moves were so bad that we were a trainwreck despite our gigantic turnaround in cap situation, roster age, and having the #3 pick in the draft? It's just so over the top.

[KChiefs1]

I'll just leave this here. Go Marty!

http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/20226-2/

STATE YOUR CASE:
MARTY SCHOTTENHEIMER DESERVES A HOF LOOK
by
RICK GOSSELIN

The road to Canton is paved with victories and championships for coaches.

Bill Belichick has plenty of both. In his 17 seasons with the Patriots, he has won 201 games and five championships. Tom Brady has been the quarterback for 235 of Belichick’s 272 games in New England. Brady has been at the helm for 183 of those victories, all five championships and has been invited to 12 Pro Bowls in his 16 seasons as a starter.

Belichick’s career has benefitted from the stability and mastery of the quarterback position by Brady. Find a Hall-of-Fame coach, and you’ll generally find a Hall-of-Fame quarterback. You play the hand you’ve been dealt as a football coach, and Belichick has played this hand very well.

But few coaches in NFL history have played the hand they’ve been dealt as masterfully as Marty Schottenheimer. He coached for 21 seasons and won 200 games. He suffered only two losing seasons in his career, taking 13 teams to the playoffs and winning division titles with eight of them.

But Schottenheimer never won a championship – so his name never comes up in any Hall-of-Fame discussions.

Schottenheimer deserves better because his success came despite a lack of stability at the quarterback position. He had 11 different starting quarterbacks in his 21 seasons, and a total of 21 different quarterbacks started games for him in his career. Belichick has had only five quarterbacks start games in his 17 seasons at New England.

Schottenheimer took teams to the playoffs with Steve DeBerg and Dave Krieg at the helm. He achieved the top playoff seeds in the AFC with Bernie Kosar, Steve Bono and Elvis Grbac at quarterback.

Schottenheimer did have Joe Montana for two seasons – but it was at the tail end of Montana’s career. He was 37 years old when Schottenheimer got him in Kansas City, and Montana promptly took the Chiefs to the AFC title game that season. Schottenheimer also fielded playoff teams with a young Bernie Kosar, a young Drew Brees and a young Philip Rivers.

In 1984, with the Cleveland Browns struggling along at 1-7, Art Modell fired Sam Rutigliano and replaced him with Schottenehimer, his defensive coordinator. Schottenheimer finished out the year 4-4 and, inside of two seasons, had the Browns in the AFC title game.

In 1988, injuries forced the Browns to start four different quarterbacks. Schottenheimer still squeezed out 10 victories and a playoff berth — but was fired by Modell at season’s end.

Schottenheimer was quickly snapped up by the Kansas City Chiefs. Kansas City had enjoyed only two winning seasons in the previous 15 years and was coming off a 4-11-1 season in 1988. With a 35-year-old DeBerg at quarterback, Schottenheimer coaxed an 8-7-1 season out of the Chiefs in 1989 – the first of nine consecutive winning seasons for Kansas City. Schottenheimer wound up winning more games (93) than any NFL coach in the 1990s.

Schottenheimer stepped away from the Chiefs after the 1998 season and spent two years away from the sideline before resurfacing in Washington as head coach of the Redskins in 2001. Washington opened the season 0-5 but rallied for a .500 finish with Tony Banks at quarterback, even pushing for a playoff spot in December. But Redskins’ owner Dan Snyder fired Schottenheimer at season’s end.

Schottenheimer was quickly snapped up by San Diego and posted a 47-33 record in his four seasons there. In his final season in 2006, Schottenheimer guided the Chargers to a 14-2 finish for the top seed in the AFC playoffs. But he was fired at season’s end after a home playoff loss in the divisional round.

Schottenheimer coached 327 games in the NFL and never had the same starting quarterback for more than four consecutive seasons. The quarterback who started the most games for him was Brees with 58. Kosar was next with 47. Schottenheimer also went into games with Paul McDonald, Gary Danielson, Jeff Christensen, Mike Pagel, Don Strock, Steve Pelluer, Mark Vlassic, Jeff George and Doug Flutie as his starter.

Despite the variety and often-times mediocrity at the quarterback position, Schottenheimer won 61.3 percent of his career games and finished in double figures in victories 11 times in his 21 seasons. He reached conference title games three times, twice with the Browns and once with the Chiefs. The most heart-breaking loss was “The Drive” engineered by John Elway in the 1986 AFC championship game.

But a lack of championships translates into a lack of attention from Canton. There are 20 coaches enshrined in the Hall of Fame, and 17 won championships. The other three all reached Super Bowls. That’s missing from Schottenheimer’s resume. But it’s the only thing missing from what otherwise was a Hall-of-Fame coaching career.

[Reerun_KC]

5-13 will probably keep Marty out.





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[Buehler445]

Shotty is better than Dungy bar fucking none. He needs to be in if Dungy is in.

[Oh Snap]

I completely forgot about crennel. Those were some dark days. Schottenhiemer was good in the regular season, cunningham sucked, vermiel gave us a fun offense to watch with a terrible defense that was not fun to watch...that vaunted career day defense... herm sucked. Halely sucked a little less, and crennel was a dumpster fire.

Which is why im thankful we have Ried. Our worst season under him has been 9-7. I dont undersrand why some fans want him gone. We havent ever had this type of team since atleast schottenhiemer. We have one of the best records of any team since ried came here.