Chiefs run game success keyed by athletic OL

[Quesadilla Joe]

FYI: Brandon Thorn (the author) is kind of obsessed with OL play.

The Kansas City Chiefs offense leads the NFL in rushing yards per game through three weeks (162), and their rookie running back Kareem Hunt leads the NFL in rushing by over 100 yards (401), with second place belonging to fellow rookie RB Dalvin Cook (288).

The Chiefs offensive line is one of the more underrated units in the league, led by right tackle Mitchell Schwartz and center Mitch Morse. Left tackle Eric Fisher has steadily improved his technique in pass protection since being drafted in 2013, improving his punch timing and pass set, allowing his athleticism to shine.

The Chiefs offensive line is an athletic group, highlighted by its heavy use of outside zone to create lateral displacement of the defense and pulling offensive linemen to get them out in space.

In Week 3, the Chiefs ran 25 times for 189 yards against their division-rival San Diego Chargers, with RB Kareem Hunt carrying the ball 17 times for 172 yards and a touchdown. Hunt’s success in the game primarily came running to the right side behind 2016 All-Pro Schwartz:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/K4DPw8a56W">pic.twitter.com/K4DPw8a56W</a></p>&mdash; Jim Jeff (@CowboysGifs) <a href="https://twitter.com/CowboysGifs/status/912872240118513664">September 27, 2017</a></blockquote>
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The Chiefs had massive success on the ground despite missing Morse, a rising star. Filling in for him was key backup Zach Fulton, a fourth-year player who started 35 games for the interior OL since entering the league in 2014.

Outside zone is a staple of the Chiefs’ run game, which is predicated on creating lateral displacement of the defense. Offensive linemen are tasked with working laterally on combo or solo blocks to either hook/reach and seal inside, or take the DL where they want to go and push them past their assigned gaps. This creates a series of cutback lanes and alleys for the runner to make entry. Decisiveness, vision and burst are required from the runner to make the correct read on either a bounce, bang or bend read.

The first offensive snap of the game for the Chiefs have them in 12 personnel running outside zone to the left. The frontside of the blocking scheme are unable to hook and seal their assignment, so Hunt quickly deciphers his reads and “bends” back to the backside B gap. Notice how the Chiefs OL is able to get the Chargers defensive front moving laterally, creating a huge alley for Hunt on the backside:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/WAURCUADPP">https://t.co/WAURCUADPP</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thorn (@BTNFL86) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912699566931058688">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Morse is often used as a puller due to his elite athleticism, play speed and use of angles in space to get smaller/quicker defenders blocked. Having a backup center in Fulton who has similar traits (albeit on a lesser level) allows for the scheme to remain in tact despite injuries.

The Chiefs come out in 11 personnel with the strong side of the formation to the boundary side of the field. To the field side there is a B gap bubble, meaning no DL, and a LB responsible for filling the opening. Kansas City pulls Fulton here with RG Laurent Duvernay-Tardif pinning the shaded NT. This creates a huge hole in the play side B gap, with RT Schwartz kicking out DE Melvin Ingram:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/YXU887iodr">https://t.co/YXU887iodr</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thorn (@BTNFL86) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912703786451218432">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Fulton is unable to close the gap between himself and the LB in space the way Morse typically does, but does enough to force the LB to get flat-footed, allowing Hunt an alley up the hash. Hunt again demonstrates decisiveness and quickness to get through the hole, and does a nice job running behind his pads to finish the run strong for a 20-yard gain.

The Chiefs’ blocking schemes are diverse, consisting of a wide-range of misdirection and deception that put LBs in positions that make them wrong even when they are making the correct reads. With the running game off to a fast start, the Chiefs begin to incorporate their run-pass option (RPO) looks, putting tremendous stress on the second level of the defense:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/PsUb33BOYH">https://t.co/PsUb33BOYH</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thorn (@BTNFL86) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912707591754588161">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote>
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The frontside LG/C double team the 2i technique at the snap, with QB Alex Smith reading the LB Jatavis Brown at the mesh point. Once Brown opens his hips to the run, Smith keeps the ball and knows the backside slant route by WR Tyreek Hill will be open. The result is a 17-yard gain on second-and-5. This is a great example of the Chiefs using early run success to open up the playbook and put the offense in a position to dictate terms to the defense.

The B gap bubble on the right side of the formation was an area the Chiefs attacked on Sunday, repeatedly pulling an interior OL in the opening to create a massive opening for Hunt to run through. Here the Chiefs run power to the right, with the C/RG blocking down and the LG/TE wrapping around in the hole as lead blockers.

Schwartz is tasked with kicking out the frontside DE, and does an excellent job adjusting inside, with good inside hand placement to gain leverage, control and sustain. Schwartz brings his hips, drives his feet, and seals off the edge. Hunt follows the pulling backside OG/TE and gets skinny through the hole for another 11-yard gain to the B gap bubble:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/2f2FdkAKN7">https://t.co/2f2FdkAKN7</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thorn (@BTNFL86) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912713215213133824">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote>
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The Chargers defense failed to adjust to the Chiefs relentless assault on the B gap bubble on the right side of the formation, and here we have the Chiefs for the third time gaining significant yardage to the soft spot of the defense.

The Chiefs pull Fisher here to kick-out Ingram off the edge with motion-man WR Albert Wilson joining forces with Fisher to create an alley. RT Schwartz is aligned in a wide-split pre-snap in order to pull Ingram further outside of the formation to ease Fisher’s kick-out block.

Schwartz raises his pad level at the snap and freezes Ingram before releasing inside to the second level for the seal block on the scraping LB’s pursuit. Fisher gets a clean kick-out block on Ingram, and RG Duvernay-Tardif shows very good hand placement to strain and seal the 2i technique inside. Fulton works to the second level and is slightly early in his initial strike at the point of attack, but gets enough of the weak side LB to spring Hunt. This creates another beautiful alley in the B gap bubble, and Hunt again breaks the initial tackle for a gain of 20 yards on 1st down:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr"><a href="https://t.co/L7glLdRYNY">https://t.co/L7glLdRYNY</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Thorn (@BTNFL86) <a href="https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912718721134637056">September 26, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Credit coach Andy Reid and offensive line coach Andy Heck for marrying their scheme and personnel to take advantage of the linemen’s athleticism and play speed through multiple concepts predicated on misdirection, deception and fundamentally sound blocking. This weekend will provide perhaps be their toughest test to date, facing off against a revitalized Washington Redskins defensive front that handled the vaunted Raiders offensive line in Week 3.

The Chiefs run a more wide-open blocking scheme with more skill-position speed than the Raiders possess, so expect the Redskins to be tested more on the perimeter, forcing the second and third levels of the defense to play with tremendous discipline in their run fits in order to secure a victory.


https://www.fanragsports.com/chiefs-run-game-success-keyed-by-athletic-ol/

[threebag]

Yeah I credit Hunt for the run game more than the OL. OL has problems with penalties and execution.

[Trivers]

Yeah I credit Hunt for the run game more than the OL. OL has problems with penalties and execution.

Spoken like a true fan. :rolleyes:

[Hydrae]

Man those were fun to watch. Hunt is good (very, very good) but would not get anywhere without being kept clean through the LOS.

[Hammock Parties]

Homers blaming the OL need to can it.

https://i.imgur.com/iZ5YcdE.jpg

[Direckshun]

QJ: you gotta clean up the OP.

You've cut and paste the same story like three times in the OP.

[Quesadilla Joe]

QJ: you gotta clean up the OP.

You've cut and paste the same story like three times in the OP.

Damn. My bad...

Edit: It's fixed.

[threebag]

Yeah let's not act like the OL has stalled any drives.

[DJ's left nut]

Jesus - this offense is just clever as hell. Every time I'm able to go through those GIF breakdowns like this or what Nick Jacobs, Baldinger or MNChieffan do, you can find all kinds of creative wrinkles that just makes you wonder how the hell anyone ever gets a stop in the NFL.

That little quick slant to start the 2nd half to Hill looked basic as all get out, but look at what that RPO action does to drag the LBs down. How do you defend that play? If they bail, Smith hands it off and Hunt has a MASSIVE hole up the middle.

Reid/Nagy impress the hell out of me, man. Those guys have built one hellacious offensive system. Yeah, it takes skill and talent to make it work but can you imagine giving the keys to this ferrari to Herm Edwards? Ron Rivera? At least 2/3 of the staff in the league wouldn't have been able to come up with the stuff these guys have developed.

We have one hell of a staff.

[O.city]

Jesus - this offense is just clever as hell. Every time I'm able to go through those GIF breakdowns like this or what Nick Jacobs, Baldinger or MNChieffan do, you can find all kinds of creative wrinkles that just makes you wonder how the hell anyone ever gets a stop in the NFL.

That little quick slant to start the 2nd half to Hill looked basic as all get out, but look at what that RPO action does to drag the LBs down. How do you defend that play? If they bail, Smith hands it off and Hunt has a MASSIVE hole up the middle.

Reid/Nagy impress the hell out of me, man. Those guys have built one hellacious offensive system. Yeah, it takes skill and talent to make it work but can you imagine giving the keys to this ferrari to Herm Edwards? Ron Rivera? At least 2/3 of the staff in the league wouldn't have been able to come up with the stuff these guys have developed.

We have one hell of a staff.

So that begs the question of how they tend to get bogged down at times?

[DJ's left nut]

So that begs the question of how they tend to get bogged down at times?

I've made my position on that known.

I think Reid's just slow-playing. He's checking through, so to speak; a rope a dope. He's running plays designed to set up plays in the 3rd/4th quarter. Or plays designed to expose tells/weaknesses later on.

They talk about attacking that B gap, I think he was running plays in the 2nd quarter to test out where they might have a weakness and I'm betting part of that process exposed those flaws in the Chargers run-fit.

I don't think Reid has any inclination towards just keeping the hammer down for 4 quarters and never has. We've seen it over and over and over again. If they're falling behind, he may let it hang out. But if he can move pieces around and not show his hand while figuring out what the opponent has to work with, he'll do that until he feels like he has/needs an advantage.

I very much doubt that for a quarter or two every week he just forgets that he's one of the brightest offensive minds in the history of the league. He does it on purpose. Besides, there's only so much clever you can show play after play before the defense has a chance to get a feel for and diagnose it. I think he understands that and tries to avoid letting the offense get too predictable, perhaps at the expense of allowing it to stagnate at times.

[O.city]

I've made my position on that known.

I think Reid's just slow-playing. He's checking through, so to speak; a rope a dope. He's running plays designed to set up plays in the 3rd/4th quarter. Or plays designed to expose tells/weaknesses later on.

They talk about attacking that B gap, I think he was running plays in the 2nd quarter to test out where they might have a weakness and I'm betting part of that process exposed those flaws in the Chargers run-fit.

I don't think Reid has any inclination towards just keeping the hammer down for 4 quarters and never has. We've seen it over and over and over again. If they're falling behind, he may let it hang out. But if he can move pieces around and not show his hand while figuring out what the opponent has to work with, he'll do that until he feels like he has/needs an advantage.

I very much doubt that for a quarter or two every week he just forgets that he's one of the brightest offensive minds in the history of the league. He does it on purpose. Besides, there's only so much clever you can show play after play before the defense has a chance to get a feel for and diagnose it. I think he understands that and tries to avoid letting the offense get too predictable, perhaps at the expense of allowing it to stagnate at times.

Maybe

But it seems it would be damn hard to figure all that out during a game while in the sidelines. But he does seem to be a savant so I'd imagine it's easy for him.

It could very well be some of this though, paired with a conservative qb. I'm really interested to see what it's like in the next few years with Mahomes.

[The Franchise]

Yeah let's not act like the OL has stalled any drives.

Sure, then let's not act like our running game is all on Hunt and not partially because of the job our offensive line is doing.

[DJ's left nut]

Maybe

But it seems it would be damn hard to figure all that out during a game while in the sidelines. But he does seem to be a savant so I'd imagine it's easy for him.

It could very well be some of this though, paired with a conservative qb. I'm really interested to see what it's like in the next few years with Mahomes.

Well he has Chilly in the press-box and Nagy with those little tablets that can get the coaches tape in damn near real-time.

And I suspect he has an idea what he's going to see before he tries it based on film study. He just runs the plays to confirm.

[Beef Supreme]

I've made my position on that known.

I think Reid's just slow-playing. He's checking through, so to speak; a rope a dope. He's running plays designed to set up plays in the 3rd/4th quarter. Or plays designed to expose tells/weaknesses later on.

They talk about attacking that B gap, I think he was running plays in the 2nd quarter to test out where they might have a weakness and I'm betting part of that process exposed those flaws in the Chargers run-fit.

I don't think Reid has any inclination towards just keeping the hammer down for 4 quarters and never has. We've seen it over and over and over again. If they're falling behind, he may let it hang out. But if he can move pieces around and not show his hand while figuring out what the opponent has to work with, he'll do that until he feels like he has/needs an advantage.

I very much doubt that for a quarter or two every week he just forgets that he's one of the brightest offensive minds in the history of the league. He does it on purpose. Besides, there's only so much clever you can show play after play before the defense has a chance to get a feel for and diagnose it. I think he understands that and tries to avoid letting the offense get too predictable, perhaps at the expense of allowing it to stagnate at times.

Or ...they are just monkeys throwing darts at a board and get lucky every now and then. I've heard it both ways.

[DJ's left nut]

Or ...they are just monkeys throwing darts at a board and get lucky every now and then. I've heard it both ways.

You can tell luck from skill by it's duration.

Andy's been ahead of the offensive curve for a very long time now.

[O.city]

Whatever it is, it works .

Hell I can't remember how many games they've played like that Sunday game where they've been up a score or so and it never felt like they were really in a situation they were controlling.

It's happened too much to be a coincidence

[thegame214]

Remember this on game days when you read how bad the OL is that " keeps getting Alex sacked."

[KChiefs1]

Penalties are the OL's biggest problem.

[Best22]

Remember this on game days when you read how bad the OL is that " keeps getting Alex sacked."

Run blocking is not the same as pass protection

Opening lanes for Hunt is different from keeping Smith clean

[Reerun_KC]

Remember this on game days when you read how bad the OL is that " keeps getting Alex sacked."



Alex doesn't get sacked. He just strategically sets up the punters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DJ's left nut]

Run blocking is not the same as pass protection

Opening lanes for Hunt is different from keeping Smith clean

The Chiefs O-Line is pretty good in pass pro; was among the best in football last year.

But sometimes guys get beat - happens to all lines. They really struggled pitching up switches and stunts last week. I don't recall them having that issue in the past so maybe it was just a weird day.

I also noticed that the Chiefs were running plays that took a little longer to develop - looking downfield more. Smith flat out missed one of them (had Conley wide the hell open and just didn't let it go) but from what I saw many of them just didn't come together.

If they want to continue to try to open up the playbook and push downfield, the OL will have to clean up those protection calls/switches. And when they get time, Smith needs to not missfire on the throw to Hill or just outright miss the open receiver to Conley. Lots of areas needed to improve in the passing game last week across the board.

[penbrook]

Remember this on game days when you read how bad the OL is that " keeps getting Alex sacked."

Let’s look up the stats when it comes to pass blocking. I bet we are near the bottom

[The Franchise]

The Chiefs O-Line is pretty good in pass pro; was among the best in football last year.

But sometimes guys get beat - happens to all lines. They really struggled pitching up switches and stunts last week. I don't recall them having that issue in the past so maybe it was just a weird day.

I also noticed that the Chiefs were running plays that took a little longer to develop - looking downfield more. Smith flat out missed one of them (had Conley wide the hell open and just didn't let it go) but from what I saw many of them just didn't come together.

If they want to continue to try to open up the playbook and push downfield, the OL will have to clean up those protection calls/switches. And when they get time, Smith needs to not missfire on the throw to Hill or just outright miss the open receiver to Conley. Lots of areas needed to improve in the passing game last week across the board.

I think part of that was Morse was gone and the fact that we were going up against Ingram and Bosa. They're one of the best duos in the league.

[Chief Pagan]

QJ: you gotta clean up the OP.

You've cut and paste the same story like three times in the OP.

Having the longish OP inside of spoiler tags is appreciated.

[RealSNR]

Let’s look up the stats when it comes to pass blocking. I bet we are near the bottom


What's your solution, then?

Witzmann is the weak link, except when he's not. Sometimes it's Schwartz. Fisher has had a few switch misses where guys blew right past him.

And that's just my idiot fan perspective. There's a coaching/play design thing that goes far deeper than I can even hope to guess at.

[milkman]

Someone needs to break down film on pass protection in that Charger game.

They (the Chargers) were getting very creative with their stunts and blitzes and the Chiefs weren't picking them up.

[milkman]

Yeah I credit Hunt for the run game more than the OL. OL has problems with penalties and execution.

You are a fucking moron.

[threebag]

Over a quarter of his rush yards have come after contact.

[milkman]

Over a quarter of his rush yards have come after contact.

Which means that 3/4 quarters of those yards came before contact.

[threebag]

Doesn't mean the OL is stellar old man. Especially if they have difficulty picking up blitz packages as in your previous post. The penalties are the killers 8 penalties

[DJ's left nut]

Someone needs to break down film on pass protection in that Charger game.

They (the Chargers) were getting very creative with their stunts and blitzes and the Chiefs weren't picking them up.

Chadiha has said it a few times and I absolutely believe it - sacks aren't usually a result of a player just whuping another player, they're a result of confusion on the line.

Sometimes Houston just throws a guy out of the way and kills someone. But more often than not, it's a twist or a stunt that leaves a guard or tackle blocking nobody and somebody comes through free.

We saw that several times against SD and it absolutely wrecked plays.

Now as was mentioned - not a lot of teams have a combination of guys like Bosa and Ingram that both have the agility and explosion to make those fast twists and free up, but teams that do look like they may continue giving us trouble. They really weren't doing a good job with those and to my eyes it was actually Schwartz that seemed to be having the most trouble.

[JakeF]

You don't often see plays where the left OT is used for a kickout block outside the right OT.

[The Franchise]

Chadiha has said it a few times and I absolutely believe it - sacks aren't usually a result of a player just whuping another player, they're a result of confusion on the line.

Sometimes Houston just throws a guy out of the way and kills someone. But more often than not, it's a twist or a stunt that leaves a guard or tackle blocking nobody and somebody comes through free.

We saw that several times against SD and it absolutely wrecked plays.

Now as was mentioned - not a lot of teams have a combination of guys like Bosa and Ingram that both have the agility and explosion to make those fast twists and free up, but teams that do look like they may continue giving us trouble. They really weren't doing a good job with those and to my eyes it was actually Schwartz that seemed to be having the most trouble.

Kelce allowed one sack. He did a horrible job of picking up Ingram.

[Sandy Vagina]

Let’s look up the stats when it comes to pass blocking. I bet we are near the bottom

yep. 2nd worst in the League, no surprise.

To be more fair to the OL, it doesn't seem like the HC and QB often have a good plan (hot reads) for what appears to be.. and ends up being.. an aggressive pass rush incoming on pre-snap.

They are still not very good though. Plenty of times, Smith takes a 3 step drop and gets the ball out to his first target just as the hits are upon him (or as near as can be w/o making legal contact just after the throw).

That's not a lot of time from the pass pro that gets masked by a quick hitter. Many times, if he has to pull down the ball on that 3 step, quick hitter.. (say a CB surprising jumps the route), then it's over. No more time to look elsewhere. It's protect ball and eat sack, or be crushed.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

You are delusional, Butt Cheeks

[Sandy Vagina]

You are delusional, Butt Cheeks

What a typical, and profound way to add legit discussion to the topic. Be proud, good sir. You have clearly given all you had in this post. :thumb:

[penbrook]

Reerun will like this. Alex Smith is #1 in passer rating with 132.7

Second best is Brady with 121.5

[Hammock Parties]

Reerun will like this. Alex Smith is #1 in passer rating with 132.7

Second best is Brady with 121.5

Flawed and outdated metric.

https://i.imgur.com/GYgGo35.jpg

[penbrook]

Flawed and outdated metric.

https://i.imgur.com/GYgGo35.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/NFL/posts/10155598366041263:0

[kccrow]

yep. 2nd worst in the League, no surprise.

To be more fair to the OL, it doesn't seem like the HC and QB often have a good plan (hot reads) for what appears to be.. and ends up being.. an aggressive pass rush incoming on pre-snap.

They are still not very good though. Plenty of times, Smith takes a 3 step drop and gets the ball out to his first target just as the hits are upon him (or as near as can be w/o making legal contact just after the throw).

That's not a lot of time from the pass pro that gets masked by a quick hitter. Many times, if he has to pull down the ball on that 3 step, quick hitter.. (say a CB surprising jumps the route), then it's over. No more time to look elsewhere. It's protect ball and eat sack, or be crushed.

You do understand the concept that pressure gets there faster on a 3-step, quick hitter than on a 5 or 7-step drop right? I mean, the laws of physics kind of dictate that...
I mean, if a DE only has to go 3 yards versus 5 or 7 yards, and he covers 1.5 yards per second, then you'd think the QB should have 2 or less seconds to get the ball out on a 3-step versus 3-4 seconds on a deeper drop...

[threebag]

Flawed and outdated metric.

https://i.imgur.com/GYgGo35.jpg

:o)

[Sandy Vagina]

You do understand the concept that pressure gets there faster on a 3-step, quick hitter than on a 5 or 7-step drop right? I mean, the laws of physics kind of dictate that...
I mean, if a DE only has to go 3 yards versus 5 or 7 yards, and he covers 1.5 yards per second, then you'd think the QB should have 2 or less seconds to get the ball out on a 3-step versus 3-4 seconds on a deeper drop...

So in your world, a 3 step drop has no correlation with trying to get the pass out quickly to avoid standing deeper in the edge rushers arc, and waiting to allow deeper routes to materialize.

That's fantastic. :facepalm:

[NJChiefsFan]

yep. 2nd worst in the League, no surprise.

To be more fair to the OL, it doesn't seem like the HC and QB often have a good plan (hot reads) for what appears to be.. and ends up being.. an aggressive pass rush incoming on pre-snap.

They are still not very good though. Plenty of times, Smith takes a 3 step drop and gets the ball out to his first target just as the hits are upon him (or as near as can be w/o making legal contact just after the throw).

That's not a lot of time from the pass pro that gets masked by a quick hitter. Many times, if he has to pull down the ball on that 3 step, quick hitter.. (say a CB surprising jumps the route), then it's over. No more time to look elsewhere. It's protect ball and eat sack, or be crushed.

The Oline has struggled with blitzes and has been pretty good otherwise from my perspective, although I haven't really been watching the games over again.

Alex has not played well against blitzes, while playing well otherwise. Before the blitz even comes it seems like he is resigned to taking the sack.

Flawed and outdated metric.

https://i.imgur.com/GYgGo35.jpg

Didn't QBR rate Rivers very highly on Sunday? Not sure that should be used as some smoking gun either.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

Someone needs to break down film on pass protection in that Charger game.

They (the Chargers) were getting very creative with their stunts and blitzes and the Chiefs weren't picking them up.

They were pretty impressive. I think Philly and the Chargers gave us their all and we still held up pretty well, pretty good sign going forward

[threebag]

The Oline has struggled with blitzes and has been pretty good otherwise from my perspective, although I haven't really been watching the games over again.

Alex has not played well against blitzes, while playing well otherwise. Before the blitz even comes it seems like he is resigned to taking the sack.



Didn't QBR rate Rivers very highly on Sunday? Not sure that should be used as some smoking gun either.

Actually I think Alex is Number 1 against the blitz

[penbrook]

Actually I think Alex is Number 1 against the blitz

We need stats for this. I think he is near the top idk about #1 though

[Sandy Vagina]

We need stats for this. I think he is near the top idk about #1 though

first thing I googled was

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2017/9/11/16288060/four-stats-that-help-tell-the-story-of-the-kansas-city-chiefs-beating-the-patriots
Alex Smith had a 124 rating against the blitz which is outstanding. The Patriots blitzed him 10 times and Alex went 8/10 for 179 yards and three touchdowns against that.

[penbrook]

first thing I googled was

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2017/9/11/16288060/four-stats-that-help-tell-the-story-of-the-kansas-city-chiefs-beating-the-patriots

Anything to see through the first 3 games not just 1 game?

[threebag]

We need stats for this. I think he is near the top idk about #1 though

Even near the top fits the true narrative rather than some bullshit fiction

[milkman]

Even near the top fits the true narrative rather than some bullshit fiction

Alex Smith is captain checkdown, so he is going to a do well against the blitz.

But there's this myth that Alex is a smart QB, and that simply is not true.

He rarely makes any adjustments or gets to a hot read.

He either checks downs, throws the ball away, or takes the sack.

[threebag]

You might want to go break down some OL tape

[milkman]

No, you should.

Go back to the first two games and watch how much more effective this team is at picking up blitzes and stunts with Morse than they are with Fulton.

But even with a smarter, quicker and more athletic center they can't cover for Alex's shortcomings.

[threebag]

Someone needs to break down film on pass protection in that Charger game.

They (the Chargers) were getting very creative with their stunts and blitzes and the Chiefs weren't picking them up.

No shit... No other runningback on the team would be close to Hunt if they were getting the carries. You think Ware or West would put up these numbers? If you do then kick rocks milkdud.

[Hammock Parties]

Didn't QBR rate Rivers very highly on Sunday? Not sure that should be used as some smoking gun either.

Rivers had a shit rating.

QBR has it's flaws but it's a far better metric than traditional NFL QB Rating, which can award a high rating even if the QB plays a shitty game, just because he doesn't turn the ball over.

[Bob Dole]

Rivers had a shit rating.

QBR has it's flaws but it's a far better metric than traditional NFL QB Rating, which can award a high rating even if the QB plays a shitty game, just because he doesn't turn the ball over.

Rivers had a better rating than Smith. QBR is shit, like most of the stats you idiots trot out.

W's are what counts.

[penbrook]

Terrell Davis saying Alex Smith is a MVP candidate so far this season

https://youtu.be/EuTG1SVPS4Y

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Terrell Davis saying Alex Smith is a MVP candidate so far this season

https://youtu.be/EuTG1SVPS4Y

:o)

[penbrook]

:o)

He’s a HOF. He knows more than anyone on CP

[threebag]

I think he was pointing it out for clay/:o) to look at



Then the midgets

[ThaVirus]

He’s a HOF. He knows more than anyone on CP

He's a former NFL RB.

His brain is scrambled like an egg.

[Pitt Gorilla]

No, you should.

Go back to the first two games and watch how much more effective this team is at picking up blitzes and stunts with Morse than they are with Fulton.

But even with a smarter, quicker and more athletic center they can't cover for Alex's shortcomings.man, I remember how much Chief Fan HATED the Morse pick.

[Hammock Parties]

The Chiefs were the 14th ranked pass blocking OL last year. 5.7% sack rate.

https://i.imgur.com/lcXvAyc.jpg

They didn't go to total trash overnight, and double their sack rate, just because of Bryan Witzmann.

Smith has terrible pocket presence, has ALWAYS been a dude who takes too many sacks, and this year with the pressure on him to hold the ball and look downfield so he can perform a miracle metamorphosis at age 33, a lot of those plays he'd just run and chuck it out of bounds are turning into sacks.

Before last season, Smith's average sack rate was 8.63. That would have ranked 29th last season. Even in his BEST seasons (2012 and 2015), his sack rate ranked 33rd and 35th.

And in the latter half of 2012, when Kaepernick took over, the 49ers sack rate PLUMMETED to 6.8% from 9.9%.

Alex Smith, did, does and will always take a lot of sacks.

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/9/16/16318674/eagles-numbers-chiefs-game-preview-stats-philadelphia-kansas-city-alex-smith-sacks-torrey-smith-kc

Out of 155 qualified passers, Smith ranks 109th in career sack percentage. He ranks 26th out of 28 active quarterbacks.

[Lzen]

Rivers had a shit rating.

QBR has it's flaws but it's a far better metric than traditional NFL QB Rating, which can award a high rating even if the QB plays a shitty game, just because he doesn't turn the ball over.

ROFL

[Lzen]

The Chiefs were the 14th ranked pass blocking OL last year. 5.7% sack rate.

https://i.imgur.com/lcXvAyc.jpg

They didn't go to total trash overnight, and double their sack rate, just because of Bryan Witzmann.

Smith has terrible pocket presence, has ALWAYS been a dude who takes too many sacks, and this year with the pressure on him to hold the ball and look downfield so he can perform a miracle metamorphosis at age 33, a lot of those plays he'd just run and chuck it out of bounds are turning into sacks.

Before last season, Smith's average sack rate was 8.63. That would have ranked 29th last season. Even in his BEST seasons (2012 and 2015), his sack rate ranked 33rd and 35th.

And in the latter half of 2012, when Kaepernick took over, the 49ers sack rate PLUMMETED to 6.8% from 9.9%.

Alex Smith, did, does and will always take a lot of sacks.

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/9/16/16318674/eagles-numbers-chiefs-game-preview-stats-philadelphia-kansas-city-alex-smith-sacks-torrey-smith-kc

Now this is a metric that I can buy into. I have complained about this with Smith. This is also part of the reason he doesn't throw man picks. But you gotta take some chances if you're gonna get anywhere in this league.

[threebag]

Which means that 3/4 quarters of those yards came before contact.

So Ware would have over 300 yards behind this line before contact?

[RealSNR]

So Ware would have over 300 yards behind this line before contact?

Well, if those are the stats we're operating under, then yes.

I think he'd still be top of the league in rushing yards if that were the case, if not top 5.

Hunt is REALLY good, but this OL is responsible for opening up those huge runs just as much as they're responsible when they miss blocks or get confused in their assignments of who to block. And unlike previous years (2013 and 2014, namely) they rarely EVER get outright manhandled in the run game.

Just look for an OL breakdown from Seth Keysor or somebody like that when he's reviewing Duvernay-Tardif. My lord, when that guy is on the move, he can freakin roadgrade.

He's absolutely our best offensive lineman. And I haven't gotten a chance to see Oakland play all that much, but he just might be the best offensive lineman in the entire division. He's totally knocking on the door of the Pro Bowl.

When's the last time that happened? A Chiefs OL going to the Pro Bowl? Probably Brian Waters in the death throes of the Vermeil offense when Herm was coach. It's even possible he did it during Haley, but I'm not sure.

[Sandy Vagina]

14th ranked pass blocking in 2016 is a good step forward for the OL.. who previously finished 28th for 2015... 28th for 2014.. and 20th in 2013.

Just as we can admit Smith takes more sacks instead of forcing INTs... he also gets rid of the ball very quickly (#1 in 2016, IIRC), and has evaded sacks with his mobility, as well. This all should do fine in balancing out the eating of sacks.. and provides a pretty realistic number as is.. for where the OL pass pro is.

so, the only surprise in seeing that the pass pro THIS year is ranked #31? is that with the outlier game of NE in week 1.. I'd have expected a better ranking. For the last two weeks, dead last sounds about right though.

[DJ's left nut]

Well, if those are the stats we're operating under, then yes.

I think he'd still be top of the league in rushing yards if that were the case, if not top 5.

Hunt is REALLY good, but this OL is responsible for opening up those huge runs just as much as they're responsible when they miss blocks or get confused in their assignments of who to block. And unlike previous years (2013 and 2014, namely) they rarely EVER get outright manhandled in the run game.

Just look for an OL breakdown from Seth Keysor or somebody like that when he's reviewing Duvernay-Tardif. My lord, when that guy is on the move, he can freakin roadgrade.

He's absolutely our best offensive lineman. And I haven't gotten a chance to see Oakland play all that much, but he just might be the best offensive lineman in the entire division. He's totally knocking on the door of the Pro Bowl.

When's the last time that happened? A Chiefs OL going to the Pro Bowl? Probably Brian Waters in the death throes of the Vermeil offense when Herm was coach. It's even possible he did it during Haley, but I'm not sure.

I distinctly recall the LDT contract as justification for firing Dorsey...

The number of people that were looking to re-write history on John Dorsey is just mind-numbing to me. Veach had better be damn good because I think we lost one of the best personnel men and general managers in the game, if not the absolute best.

[RealSNR]

14th ranked pass blocking in 2016 is a good step forward for the OL.. who previously finished 28th for 2015... 28th for 2014.. and 20th in 2013.

Just as we can admit Smith takes more sacks instead of forcing INTs... he also gets rid of the ball very quickly (#1 in 2016, IIRC), and has evaded sacks with his mobility, as well. This all should do fine in balancing out the eating of sacks.. and provides a pretty realistic number as is.. for where the OL pass pro is.

so, the only surprise in seeing that the pass pro THIS year is ranked #31? is that with the outlier game of NE in week 1.. I'd have expected a better ranking. For the last two weeks, dead last sounds about right though.

It will improve. I know Witzmann is an easy scapegoat, but in reality he's getting the job done in protection for the most part, and when he's not, it's because the defense we're facing does a good job keeping things off-balance and hard to guess for protection schemes. Those are the same blitzes that have made Schwartz screw up a bunch, too.

I know nobody wants to hear this because it's an excuse, but not all NFL teams have had to play defensive lines like Philly and San Diego both in the first three weeks.

Philly is a top 3 DL in the NFC. It's right up there with Seattle and the Rams. San Diego did an incredible job being unpredictable. They've got a great defensive coordinator (whoever it is).

Wait until we get a nice soft team like the Raiders. Yeah, Khalil Mack will get some sacks, but they probably aren't going to get as many overload sacks where our guys are just caught out of position.

[Sandy Vagina]

^ very encouraged about the OL with posts like this, SNR. I hope you are right.

Each week, a new test, and test results to better make an opinion of them. :)

[threebag]

I love the Canadian Dr.

Witzmann and Schwartz with the sacks and penalties rob some of the good things.

I don't think Ware would be anywhere close to the yards Hunt has put up.

I know Ware and West held the stable down but it's nice to have a horse back. I was worried going into the season about our run game. Not now, just hope he has the gas in the tank to make it.

It also needs mentioned they did well against two of the best DL in the NFL

[O.city]

https://twitter.com/jamesalight/status/837442819841216513

This is old and maybe has been posted before but it's cool to hear from a dcoord

[Sandy Vagina]

I love the Canadian Dr.

Witzmann and Schwartz with the sacks and penalties rob some of the good things.

I don't think Ware would be anywhere close to the yards Hunt has put up.

I know Ware and West held the stable down but it's nice to have a horse back. I was worried going into the season about our run game. Not now, just hope he has the gas in the tank to make it.

It also needs mentioned they did well against two of the best DL in the NFL

Yeah, those are the two OL on my grumpy face list right now. :grr:

A true http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/rickf73/forums/tiphat2.gif to the ability and efforts of Hunt. Going into the year, I was (and am) a Spencer Ware fan.. but if anyone had told me Hunt should be the true RB1, I'd have laughed. Crow is really not so bad with teriyaki sauce.

[O.city]

https://twitter.com/jamesalight/status/837442819841216513

This is old and maybe has been posted before but it's cool to hear from a dcoord

Kind of goes against all we hear from some here about blitzing and bringing more guys

Good qbs eat that shit up. Gotta be able to get there with 4

[penbrook]

Brady leads all QBs in fantasy points. Smitty is #2!!

[kccrow]

So in your world, a 3 step drop has no correlation with trying to get the pass out quickly to avoid standing deeper in the edge rushers arc, and waiting to allow deeper routes to materialize.

That's fantastic. :facepalm:

The 3-step drop has EVERYTHING to do with getting the pass out quickly. That's the point. Re-read your original post.

[Sandy Vagina]

The 3-step drop has EVERYTHING to do with getting the pass out quickly. That's the point. Re-read your original post.

We seem to have a disconnect in expressing our thoughts on this. I'll try this.

In my football playing and watching experience, if your QB is getting hit or about to get hit as soon as his back-foot plants on a 3 step drop.. then one or more of the OL has greatly failed at their job.

If you disagree with this sentiment, then we can just agree to disagree, and avoid the whole cursing and insulting of each other. :thumb:

[Chiefshrink]

but would not get anywhere without being kept clean through the LOS.

I respectfully disagree. I have seen KH more often than not create his own holes and is very difficult to bring down once he gets going.

[Chiefshrink]

Andy's been ahead of the offensive curve for a very long time now.

I agree with this statement. However, I have a theory as to why his play calling goes to crap after getting a decent lead like last week which frustrated me to no end. This is just a theory but how do you get up 14 points or any significant lead(with great play calling) and then just fall off the table(horrible play calling) like that which seems to happen quite a bit with Reid. My theory is that once Reid gets a decent lead he let's guys like Pederson and now Nagy who he has mentored and mentors now call plays on their own allowing them to cut their teeth "play calling" and then after the game gets a little to close for comfort he takes it back.

Just a theory.:shrug:

[Chiefshrink]

Well let's hope our OL is even more athletic than ever because the "Native Americans" looked pretty good against one of the "supposed" top OL's in the league.:hmmm:

[threebag]

It should be a good watch our OL vs their DL. Hopefully Schwartz bring his A game

[milkman]

No shit... No other runningback on the team would be close to Hunt if they were getting the carries. You think Ware or West would put up these numbers? If you do then kick rocks milkdud.

So, your argument then, is that because Hunt uses his vision and burst to find and get through holes, the OL isn't doing it's job well enough?

[threebag]

No I am saying he helps mask their deficiencies. No way would Ware or West be anywhere close. He is a greater RB than the OL as a unit by far. Probably wouldn't be reading a fluff piece with Ware or West starting.


Probably be doom and gloom like other positions on the team

[milkman]

No I am saying he helps mask their deficiencies. No way would Ware or West be anywhere close. He is a greater RB than the OL as a unit by far. Probably wouldn't be reading a fluff piece with Ware or West starting.


Probably be doom and gloom like other positions on the team

So, what, in your estimation, is this line's deficiencies?

[RINGLEADER]

It should be a good watch our OL vs their DL. Hopefully Schwartz bring his A game

On the crawl at the bottom of the screen on NFL Network right now it says Eric Fisher did not practice because of a back issue.

[Chiefshrink]

No I am saying he helps mask their deficiencies. No way would Ware or West be anywhere close. He is a greater RB than the OL as a unit by far. Probably wouldn't be reading a fluff piece with Ware or West starting.


Probably be doom and gloom like other positions on the team

BINGO !!

[Chiefshrink]

So, what, in your estimation, is this line's deficiencies?

With this present o-line would you rather have Larry Johnson or Kareem Hunt as your bell cow back?

Deficiencies? Our o-line cannot dominate in the run game like they could between 2002-2005. They are mediocre at best IMHO at this point. During those years teams would stack 8-9 in the box and it wouldn't matter we could still easily run.

My point being that LJ's knock on him in college as he was coming out for the draft was that as soon as he faced a good run defense he disappeared just like he did once that elite o-line of 02-05 began to dissipate. LJ couldn't open up a hole even if you gave him a "backhoe". LJ refused to "work" as a RB. Either the o-line created a red carpet for him or he was done. All KH needs is just a "welcome mat" on the porch:D and this is "three bag's point.

So the next question is what would KH's numbers be at this point IF he had the 02-05 elite o-line in front of him ? Throw in Jamaal Charles as well because he did not have good rushing o-lines in front of him either.

I can clearly see KH opens up his own holes when they are barely or not even there and this is 'most of the time' from my own "football eyes" perspective IMHO.

At this point our o-line rush blocking is mediocre at best. I will give them a C.

Pass blocking has been a pleasant surprise and I will give them a B+ at this point.

[Hammock Parties]

LJ couldn't open up a hole even if you gave him a "backhoe". LJ refused to "work" as a RB. Either the o-line created a red carpet for him or he was done.

This isn't true.

LJ was good at making people miss and dragging defenders for extra yardage 2004-2006. There's plenty of footage out there.

After the injury in 2007 he certainly appeared to lose some ability in this respect but prior, he was an elite RB in almost every way (sans pass blocking).

Hunt is even better at creating and shedding minor contact but to suggest he is masking the OL's deficiencies is ignorant. On both of his long TD runs the OL opened up gaping holes.

[kccrow]

We seem to have a disconnect in expressing our thoughts on this. I'll try this.

In my football playing and watching experience, if your QB is getting hit or about to get hit as soon as his back-foot plants on a 3 step drop.. then one or more of the OL has greatly failed at their job.

If you disagree with this sentiment, then we can just agree to disagree, and avoid the whole cursing and insulting of each other. :thumb:

I don't think I have called you any names yet :D

On 3-step drops, there is usually only one or two reads and a checkdown. The reads are always "grouped" and the QB will always only look to one side of the field that he determines with his pre-snap match-up reads. There might be a post/corner, a whip/slant/hitch, and then a check middle or at the hash to a TE or RB. The QB will bring his progression down, corner to whip to check or however it's set up. The pass rush is going to get there quick. Line usually gives up a yard on the snap and the QB is only dropping about 4 yards deep (tall QB might get 5 yards deep) so the net ends up 3-4 yards. The quarterback takes one big explosive step away from center and then catches himself and balances for the throw with a couple chop steps. The line isn't failing necessarily, they just aren't going to always completely stall a defensive front across the board and 3 yards isn't much to work with. The QB has to get that ball out in 2 seconds or less and defensive lineman will tend to be near the QB. Nature of the beast.

I guess what I'm saying is that you seeing bodies around Alex on 3-step drops should be expected and it isn't that the line is failing. If Alex is getting smashed every time he 3-steps, then yeah I'd say someone is failing.

[milkman]

With this present o-line would you rather have Larry Johnson or Kareem Hunt as your bell cow back?

Deficiencies? Our o-line cannot dominate in the run game like they could between 2002-2005. They are mediocre at best IMHO at this point. During those years teams would stack 8-9 in the box and it wouldn't matter we could still easily run.

My point being that LJ's knock on him in college as he was coming out for the draft was that as soon as he faced a good run defense he disappeared just like he did once that elite o-line of 02-05 began to dissipate. LJ couldn't open up a hole even if you gave him a "backhoe". LJ refused to "work" as a RB. Either the o-line created a red carpet for him or he was done. All KH needs is just a "welcome mat" on the porch:D and this is "three bag's point.

So the next question is what would KH's numbers be at this point IF he had the 02-05 elite o-line in front of him ? Throw in Jamaal Charles as well because he did not have good rushing o-lines in front of him either.

I can clearly see KH opens up his own holes when they are barely or not even there and this is 'most of the time' from my own "football eyes" perspective IMHO.

At this point our o-line rush blocking is mediocre at best. I will give them a C.

Pass blocking has been a pleasant surprise and I will give them a B+ at this point.

I'll get back to you after I hear from threebag on this.

[Rausch]

So, what, in your estimation, is this line's deficiencies?

The ability to show aggression and maul-block in the running game.

We can use athleticism to trick people but we can't straight up blow people off the line of scrimmage.

It seems we want our guys to be versatile, athletic, and malleable but we don't have a single DOMINANT guy on the line.

We desperately need that guy (like Hudson was) that sets the tone...

[Rausch]

With this present o-line would you rather have Larry Johnson or Kareem Hunt as your bell cow back?

Hunt.

Hunt has incredible balance and doesn't go down with "woo-hits" because he's never square and you never get a solid hip or shoulder shot.

LJ was a monster but you can't lower your shoulder and take on the NFL and expect a long career.

Behind any O line...