What's wrong with Sutton's Defense?

[Couch-Potato]

So I'll be the best to tell you I'm not the best X's and O's guy, especially on defense, and I've been reading a lot of people hating on Sutton's Defense...Not to mention watching Peter's throw a fit on the sideline...can someone explain to me what the issue is?

[petegz28]

Personally I get tired of watching a 3 man rush on 3rd and long. It almost cost us the Redskins game as Cousins took off several times. I've always been a fan of make the QB act fast. 3 man rush usually means QB has time to survey the field and wait for someone to come open. 5 blockers on 3 rushers usually isn't a winning equation.

3rd & 8 or so and I would like to see more blitzing. Make the QB have to get rid of the ball quick so the WR's don't have time to get down field past the markers.

[penbrook]

We play a lot of man which means we give up a lot of long balls but still have a top 5 defense in terms of completion percentage allowed

[Reerun_KC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/ed20e4e3c636b50a1675010db6ec3fdd.jpg

[DaneMcCloud]

Nothing

[staylor26]

Nothing

This.

People are so ****ing clueless it’s unbelievable LMAO

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

It isn't sexy but it gets the job done.

[TrebMaxx]

5-0 wrong is so right.

[petegz28]

Nothing

This.

People are so ****ing clueless it’s unbelievable LMAO

It isn't sexy but it gets the job done.

5-0 wrong is so right.

I don't ever want to see our best pass rusher 30+ yards down field defending the pass. Inexcusable.

[Dinny Bossa Nova]

5-0 wrong is so right.

If 5-0 is wroooooong, I don't wanna be right.

Dinny

[jimidollar]

The way I see it there is only one major problem. We're missing some guys.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't ever want to see our best pass rusher 30+ yards down field defending the pass. Inexcusable.

Dumb AF, as usual

[petegz28]

The way I see it there is only one major problem. We're missing some guys.

Ford not being in hurts...I think....maybe...possibly

Berry not being in hurts...period

[petegz28]

Dumb AF, as usual

Yeah, put your best rusher on Antonio Brown 50 yards down field.....good call, Dane

[threebag]

Missing Eric Berry

[Chief Pote]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/ed20e4e3c636b50a1675010db6ec3fdd.jpg

Oh come on, please explain or stop.

[Sandy Vagina]

The end game results always ease my frustrations, but man yes.. there are times that I am ashamed of the way they play. I'm a huge believer in the trenches being incredibly important. The offense struggling behind a bad OL, sure I get that. There is too much DL talent for them to eat this much shit on run defense though.

Have to have an answer better than Zombo for the other brokedick OLB spot, right? Why not give KPass a shot to earn his draft cred? Also seems like there is a constant disregard from the officials for KC's pass rush... which can negate a lot of my bitching, lol.

Overall, the defense somehow gets it done..and when they don't, the offense can now carry the rest.. so.. no major gripes.. but it's so often an embarrassment through much of the game. Just too much talent to excuse.

[petegz28]

The end game results always ease my frustrations, but man yes.. there are times that I am ashamed of the way they play. I'm a huge believer in the trenches being incredibly important. The offense struggling behind a bad OL, sure I get that. There is too much DL talent for them to eat this much shit on run defense though.

Have to have an answer better than Zombo for the other brokedick OLB spot, right? Why not give KPass a shot to earn his draft cred? Also seems like there is a constant disregard from the officials for KC's pass rush... which can negate a lot of my bitching, lol.

Overall, the defense somehow gets it done..and when they don't, the offense can now carry the rest.. so.. no major gripes.. but it's so often an embarrassment through much of the game. Just too much talent to excuse.

I was really hoping we would have picked up Wade Phillips when he was available. Dude always brings a mean defense. Wish Sutton took a few pages out of the playbook more often.

[threebag]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171010/ed20e4e3c636b50a1675010db6ec3fdd.jpg

Romper Room fodder

[DaneMcCloud]

Yeah, put your best rusher on Antonio Brown 50 yards down field.....good call, Dane

So that’s what is wrong this season?

:facepalm:

You’re a dumbass, clueless blowhard.

[DaneMcCloud]

I was really hoping we would have picked up Wade Phillips when he was available. Dude always brings a mean defense. Wish Sutton took a few pages out of the playbook more often.

I wish you’d stop posting.

Not everyone gets their wish.

[Sandy Vagina]

I was really hoping we would have picked up Wade Phillips when he was available. Dude always brings a mean defense. Wish Sutton took a few pages out of the playbook more often.

I don't necessarily want to replace Bob, but I would approve of a much more nasty, aggressive rush.

[petegz28]

So that’s what is wrong this season?

:facepalm:

You’re a dumbass, clueless blowhard.

He looked all-world covering Vernon Davis 30 yards down field too....clueless

[TLO]

I think it's missing Dee Ford and Eric Berry. That's pretty much it.

[O.city]

They just don't care about giving up yards. It doesn't matter. Pressure and turnovers and good red zone d

It's not my favorite way but it works

[petegz28]

I wish you’d stop posting.

Not everyone gets their wish.

I wish you'd quit being a dick, too. But, as you said, not everyone gets their wish.

[DaneMcCloud]

I don't necessarily want to replace Bob, but I would approve of a much more nasty, aggressive rush.

I’m sure you would, you dumb fucking cunt.

It would be SO MUCH better to rush players and expose a secondary that’s missing Eric Berry and Steve Nelson, especially when Dee Ford, Tamba Hali and Dari Nicolas are on the sidelines.

:rolleyes:

Frank Zombo for the win!

[DaneMcCloud]

I wish you'd quit being a dick, too. But, as you said, not everyone gets their wish.

How original, Goober

[DaneMcCloud]

He looked all-world covering Vernon Davis 30 yards down field too....clueless

Who won the game, Triple Chin?

[petegz28]

I don't necessarily want to replace Bob, but I would approve of a much more nasty, aggressive rush.

I just always liked that pressure defense we had back in the day. This defense reminds me more of a RAC defense than a nasty Gunther defense or even a Wade defense.

You watch Denver when they had Wade and even still now, 3rd and long and the heat is coming. You don't have time to sit back and wait for guys to come open.

I like our corners but a pass rush more often would help them out and increase the turnovers, I believe.

[petegz28]

Who won the game, Triple Chin?

Because Doctson(sp?) dropped a TD pass....

[BryanBusby]

Who won the game, Triple Chin?
Hey, pete lived next door to a High School Defensive coordinator. That makes him much smarter about Defenses.

[DaneMcCloud]

Because Doctson(sp?) dropped a TD pass....

You’re a worthless fucking cunt.

Your cunt has a cunt that has a cunt.

Because you’re a fucking whiny moron.

[petegz28]

You’re a worthless ****ing ****.

Your **** has a **** that has a ****.

Danerage in full effect.....ROFL

[Rain Man]

In the NFL, I think a big key to success is surprising people or at least being something that they don't have experience against. I think Sutton may be cutting the edge on that.

For the past X years, the theme has been to get quicker and quicker pass rushers, with the goal of messing up the quarterback. Offenses have concentrated on getting quarterbacks who can think fast and get rid of the ball fast. Everyone tries to do that.

Sutton is kind of doing the opposite. He's forcing the quarterbacks to slow down and think, and they're not used to it. Their playing style is focused on finding the holes in coverage quickly, which can lead to big gains. Sutton is not giving them those holes in coverage, and has extra defenders to keep the gains small. It's unorthodox, but it seems to work. The team is 5-0, and if you take away several garbage time touchdowns the defense might be top ten in points yielded.

[Sandy Vagina]

I just always liked that pressure defense we had back in the day. This defense reminds me more of a RAC defense than a nasty Gunther defense or even a Wade defense.

You watch Denver when they had Wade and even still now, 3rd and long and the heat is coming. You don't have time to sit back and wait for guys to come open.

I like our corners but a pass rush more often would help them out and increase the turnovers, I believe.

I agree. Will take what we can get, but in an ideal world, Bob turns up the heat more often.

He does every now and then.. and the team is winning, so meh.. not something to pound the table over.

[DaneMcCloud]

Danerage in full effect.....ROFL

Rage? Uh, no.

Any regular of CP knows that your vagina competes with the Grand Canyon for the largest gash in America.

[petegz28]

You’re a worthless ****ing ****.

Your **** has a **** that has a ****.

Because you’re a ****ing whiny moron.

Rage? Uh, no.

Any regular of CP knows that your vagina competes with the Grand Canyon for the largest gash in America.

Ain't no rage, like Danerage!!!

[Reerun_KC]

Oh come on, please explain or stop.



Sure. Wife is a hospice nurse. I help her / volunteer with her at nursing homes. Elderly folks like bingo, blankets, pudding cups and Matlock.


Sutton reminds me of some of her patients. He's our little pudding cup of joy.

[DaneMcCloud]

Ain't no rage, like Danerage!!!

Pointing out your epic dumbassery has never been easier

Thanks, Pete

[RunKC]

The only thing "wrong" about last night was the secondary giving up inexcusable deep catches three times.

It was 39-20 with just over 3 minutes left in the game. Wasn't anywhere near as bad as it looked.

[tk13]

It's funny because when he first got here it felt like Sutton was not great at making adjustments. He'd play man coverage one on one and rush the passer a lot. Didn't adjust, just said this is the way we're playing and try to beat us. Which some QBs did.

Now he's completely flipped and is playing very safe, bend but don't break defense. Dropping everyone in coverage a lot and trying to prevent the big play... which they did probably give up too many times last night.

[BryanBusby]

The only thing "wrong" about last night was the secondary giving up inexcusable deep catches three times.

It was 39-20 with just over 3 minutes left in the game. Wasn't anywhere near as bad as it looked.
The Texans have good receivers and Watson had plenty of time to wait for them to get open with the massive holds allowed.

I'm more concerned about the number of decent run gains up the gut.

[O.city]

The chiefs have had a fourth quarter 2 score lead in 4 of their 5 wins this far

That's cool

[cooper barrett]

If 5-0 is wroooooong, I don't wanna be right.

Dinny

Your "math" is never right:D:D:D:D

[MahiMike]

I'm surprised kpass hasn't been in yet.

[BryanBusby]

I'm surprised kpass hasn't been in yet.
Why? The dude is a major project.

[notorious]

They are doing okay, I just wish they were more aggressive like Denver.

It's frustrating to watch us sit back and react all game.

[Reerun_KC]

They are doing okay, I just wish they were more aggressive like Denver.

It's frustrating to watch us sit back and react all game.



Reminds me of the Dave Alford days.

[T-post Tom]

So I'll be the best to tell you I'm not the best X's and O's guy, especially on defense, and I've been reading a lot of people hating on Sutton's Defense...Not to mention watching Peter's throw a fit on the sideline...can someone explain to me what the issue is?

Guess Justin Houston trailing Antonio Gates might be one place to start. :) Actually, can't complain much about 5-0. I would like to see more blitzing and less Justin Houston in pass coverage. Can't help but wonder what Marcus Peters would say...

[Sorter]

I don't ever want to see our best pass rusher 30+ yards down field defending the pass. Inexcusable.

This is inevitable to occur at least a few times in any 3-4 base teams.

It’s not inexcusable.

[Hammock Parties]

Frank Zombo is our starting OLB and you wonder why the defense struggles sometimes?

[Sorter]

I encourage people to research constraint theory.

[chiefzilla1501]

I know I'm a Homer for this defense, but I still think we have a formula that frustrates the hell out of good qbs. I loved Collinsworth talking about his conversation with Sutton. Sutton said that there are so many quick strike offenses out there that blitzes almost do you no good. I don't love the way the defense is playing right now. But I also feel that Murray will improve and the secondary will improve immensely once Nelson is back.

My biggest complaint is we have to get better stopping the deep pass. Qbs seem to be challenging our CBs and we're not getting badly beat, but we seem to get beat by 50/50 balls. And of course, we've seen Sutton make adjustments through lots of injuries. But he seems to really struggle when we don't have two solid corners out there. If we ever have to throw Gaines or below as our #2, we'll be in trouble.

[ThaVirus]

In the NFL, I think a big key to success is surprising people or at least being something that they don't have experience against. I think Sutton may be cutting the edge on that.

For the past X years, the theme has been to get quicker and quicker pass rushers, with the goal of messing up the quarterback. Offenses have concentrated on getting quarterbacks who can think fast and get rid of the ball fast. Everyone tries to do that.

Sutton is kind of doing the opposite. He's forcing the quarterbacks to slow down and think, and they're not used to it. Their playing style is focused on finding the holes in coverage quickly, which can lead to big gains. Sutton is not giving them those holes in coverage, and has extra defenders to keep the gains small. It's unorthodox, but it seems to work. The team is 5-0, and if you take away several garbage time touchdowns the defense might be top ten in points yielded.

im sure that internal clock is going haywire on these QBs while they're playing us

[O.city]

I encourage people to research constraint theory.

So what's the limiting factor here? What are they assuming it is by playing this way? If that makes sense

[cooper barrett]

Maybe when Hali gets back we will have a pass rush again. Updates anyone?

I sure remember going crazy when DT and Neil Smith would maim quarterbacks. Yes the good old days....

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/26/8a/c6/268ac6bc9bba100f4b13e20a9b6a73cf--rush-hour-derrick-thomas.jpg

[Chief Pote]

Sure. Wife is a hospice nurse. I help her / volunteer with her at nursing homes. Elderly folks like bingo, blankets, pudding cups and Matlock.


Sutton reminds me of some of her patients. He's our little pudding cup of joy.

:clap:. ROFL

Alright, good response. Carry on.

[chiefzilla1501]

In the NFL, I think a big key to success is surprising people or at least being something that they don't have experience against. I think Sutton may be cutting the edge on that.

For the past X years, the theme has been to get quicker and quicker pass rushers, with the goal of messing up the quarterback. Offenses have concentrated on getting quarterbacks who can think fast and get rid of the ball fast. Everyone tries to do that.

Sutton is kind of doing the opposite. He's forcing the quarterbacks to slow down and think, and they're not used to it. Their playing style is focused on finding the holes in coverage quickly, which can lead to big gains. Sutton is not giving them those holes in coverage, and has extra defenders to keep the gains small. It's unorthodox, but it seems to work. The team is 5-0, and if you take away several garbage time touchdowns the defense might be top ten in points yielded.

The one thing that makes me a little more comfortable losing Dorsey for Veach is that we may have brilliant coaches who know exactly what they're looking for. I hope that's more on the coaches than it was Dorsey because we would be in good shape.

I remember several years ago, Dorsey mentioned they made a big mistake in year 1. They tried to build a clone of the Rex Ryan defense which required big lunch pail guys like Mike Devito who could bounce between multiple techniques including 0 tech. That kind of defense allowed you to bounce around from 3-4 to 4-3. But Dorsey commented that they recognized that the NFL was changing and that their DEs needed to be quicker. That was his explanation for picking up Vance Walker - a bust, but the strategy was right. He also picked up both Ford and Eric Fisher because he recognized the trend of getting to the QB very quickly.

I agree. They seem to be on the cutting edge. Something hasn't completely clicked yet this year but I just have this feeling by season's end they're going to figure this out.

[MahiMike]

On the hail Mary's last night and the pass to Pryor, shows we are vulnerable vs tall receivers.

[OldSchool]

Missing the star and defensive leader, Eric Berry. I'd like to think that they would play a bit more disciplined in the secondary if Berry was still on the field. DJ, the best ILB, is also significantly slower now.

[Red Dawg]

Bell coming to town. Must kick his ass all game.

[DaneMcCloud]

On the hail Mary's last night and the pass to Pryor, shows we are vulnerable vs tall receivers.

Good fucking god

You’re vulnerable to being an utter dipshit at all times

[CoMoChief]

Losing Berry hurts the secondary tremendously. You simply can't lose a player like that and expect to be just as good on defense or not skip a beat. Secondary is hurting for depth. Hope Nelson is able to contribute right away but who knows. Anything to get Gaines off the field.

I wish the defense would blitz more....esp last night against an inaccurate inexperienced QB. Not getting to the QB has been an issue at times. That leads to QB's making big plays. If anything that's my biggest concern about the D. They're a bend don't break defense that gives up stats in between the 20s but have success keeping teams out of the endzone which is most important stat of any D at the end of the day, ppg allowed. If not for some garbage time TD's their stat line would look better.

[KChiefs1]

We aren't the 85 Bears but they aren't bad. I don't like bend but don't break defenses but it's working.

[Buzz]

I wasn't old enough to remember when the Chiefs won the Super Bowl but this team is the most well balanced that I can recall. Peters needs to settle down, he's becoming a detriment and I can't say that I like it.

[BWillie]

The only thing "wrong" about last night was the secondary giving up inexcusable deep catches three times.

It was 39-20 with just over 3 minutes left in the game. Wasn't anywhere near as bad as it looked.

Dude, Watson just heaved 3 hail mary passes straight into the air. The last drive we weren't even trying. Sometimes the other team gets an amazinf flukey catch. In this case they had many and Watson could have thrown multiple picks. It is a game of inches

[DTLB58]

Watson. Other than that, Look they almost shut them out in the 1st half. They will be okay.

[Direckshun]

Sutton has reportedly remarked that in the NFL in 2017, QBs are getting the ball out so fast it's a waste of resources to send a heavy rush.

Hard to argue with the results. I don't care about Watson piling up garbage time stats.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

It has nothing to do with Eric Berry. Sorensen has answered the call very well

[OldSchool]

Sutton has reportedly remarked that in the NFL in 2017, QBs are getting the ball out so fast it's a waste of resources to send a heavy rush.

Hard to argue with the results. I don't care about Watson piling up garbage time stats.

It really is. But I'd still like 4 every play if possible. Hard to cover receivers for 5+ seconds on every single passing down.

[BryanBusby]

It has nothing to do with Eric Berry. Sorensen has answered the call very well
Sorensen has been out of position at a good clip and helped allow big gains.

He's made some plays, but lets not pretend he's been anything but a drastic downgrade from Berry.

[OldSchool]

It has nothing to do with Eric Berry. Sorensen has answered the call very well

Not really. He's been pretty average. There were a few plays that I can think of, just against the Texans, where Berry would have easily made the stop for 2-3 yards at most but Sorensen either flat out whiffed or allowed 2-3 yards after contact.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

Berry may be better in the run game but Sorensen has been great in pass coverage. Hopkins had virtually nothing to show for in that first half.

[threebag]

I love what Dirty Dan brings when he brings it

[Oh Snap]

Personally I get tired of watching a 3 man rush on 3rd and long. It almost cost us the Redskins game as Cousins took off several times. I've always been a fan of make the QB act fast. 3 man rush usually means QB has time to survey the field and wait for someone to come open. 5 blockers on 3 rushers usually isn't a winning equation.

3rd & 8 or so and I would like to see more blitzing. Make the QB have to get rid of the ball quick so the WR's don't have time to get down field past the markers.

Yea but we play man and drop an extra man in pass coverage. It makes it harder for QBs to pass on us due to coverage.

[ChiefsFanatic]

So I'll be the best to tell you I'm not the best X's and O's guy, especially on defense, and I've been reading a lot of people hating on Sutton's Defense...Not to mention watching Peter's throw a fit on the sideline...can someone explain to me what the issue is?My initial thought was that Peters was upset that the defensive backs were kinda getting hung out to dry by being forced to cover wide receivers for an extended period of time in the scramble drill. But after a second viewing, I am not sure what he was pissed about.

Some of the angry posters on this thread, and on Chiefsplanet as a whole, don't allow opinions, that don't match their own, to get by them without a hate filled cry for attention in the form of a verbal attack, instead of a thoughtful discourse, and it's sad.

When I think back to the genesis of this board, in 2000, and compare that to where it is now, it is disappointing to see how the evolution of the "internet tough guy" has wrecked this place.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

My initial thought was that Peters was upset that the defensive backs were kinda getting hung out to dry by being forced to cover wide receivers for an extended period of time in the scramble drill. But after a second viewing, I am not sure what he was pissed about.

Some of the angry posters on this thread, and on Chiefsplanet as a whole, don't allow opinions, that don't match their own, to get by them without a hate filled cry for attention in the form of a verbal attack, instead of a thoughtful discourse, and it's sad.

When I think back to the genesis of this board, in 2000, and compare that to where it is now, it is disappointing to see how the evolution of the "internet tough guy" has wrecked this place.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Oh shut the fuck up

[Mav]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that Eric Berry is out, Tamba Hali, dadi, dee are all out. That kind of makes a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CoMoChief]

Berry may be better in the run game but Sorensen has been great in pass coverage. Hopkins had virtually nothing to show for in that first half.

ROFL:shake:

[tmax63]

They were facing a rookie QB with some of the best wheels in the league. One time while JPL(?) was spying him and went after him, he sidestepped him and gained 15 yards rushing. DW got lucky on 3-4 long throws that were within 8" of being knocked down or intercepted but he didn't beat the Chiefs running.
I see a different story this week with a big statue for a QB in Pitt.

[Aspengc8]

With the injuries they have on defense right now, its a better gameplan to force QB's to throw into coverage, rather than blitz and pray that they don't pick it up. Chiefs have made a living on defense by getting pressure with only rushing 4, and until either Hali or Ford comes back, its not going to happen consistently. Blitzing one extra and knowing that you are getting 1v1's with Houston/hali/ford is a lot better than blitzing 2 extra to get the same amount of pressure due to lack of talent.

[Sandy Vagina]

Sorensen has been out of position at a good clip and helped allow big gains.

He's made some plays, but lets not pretend he's been anything but a drastic downgrade from Berry.

Very true, imo. He gives it his all.. doesn't suck.. but he's still a marginal starter/good backup.. from what I'm seeing of him.

[kccrow]

I don't know that Sutton is playing the brand of D he wants to play, but he's playing the kind he needs to play. Sutton is playing to the personnel he has available, to put it simply.

He went into the season with, essentially, two pass rushers. He had to be careful with how many snaps he was sending them balls out after the QB. Now, he's down to one pass rusher. So, think about that shit for a minute. How many snaps do you want Houston on the bench because he's going all out every snap trying to rush the passer? I don't want him out very often because he's the team's best run defender. Sutton has been routinely saving him for the 4th quarter and bringing more heat then.

If/when the Chiefs have at least 3 horses that can legitimately rush the passer, I'm sure we'll see Sutton open up the gates a bit more. Until then he's going to sit on the pass with multiple DB sets and hope he can get one of his DTs home on a rush, which has been holding teams down enough to get Ws.

[notorious]

I think that talent carries the scheme and makes it better than what is really is.


I can't think of another team that has this many studs on the line and at OLB that gets this little of pressure. The is scheme taking them out of opportunities.


If it keeps points off the board, so be it, I just don't like it.

[O.city]

I think that talent carries the scheme and makes it better than what is really is.


I can't think of another team that has this many studs on the line and at OLB that gets this little of pressure. The is scheme taking them out of opportunities.


If it keeps points off the board, so be it, I just don't like it.

They're also 8th Right now with 14 sacks

But I'd like to see more aggression as well

[notorious]

They're also 8th Right now with 14 sacks

But I'd like to see more aggression as well

I'll admit, it's probably a perception thing for me. I think they should get more pressure even though they are doing okay.

[Marcellus]

The chiefs have had a fourth quarter 2 score lead in 4 of their 5 wins this far

That's cool

I am fairly certain that in Sutton's history here our 2nd half defense has been very very good. We have given up some garbage time points this season but we rarely give up more than 10 points in the 2nd half.

I do think as the season progresses you will start to see more aggressive play on defense but not likely until later in games. And that will also depend on whether we have a big lead or not.

[notorious]

I am fairly certain that in Sutton's history here our 2nd half defense has been very very good. We have given up some garbage time points this season but we rarely give up more than 10 points in the 2nd half.

I do think as the season progresses you will start to see more aggressive play on defense but not likely until later in games. And that will also depend on whether we have a big lead or not.

I agree with this. Why show off the goods if the game is already wrapped up?


Perhaps they are lulling the opposition to sleep, and when the games really matter they are going to unleash hell.

Here's to hoping.

[Rasputin]

I think missing Eric Berry is a big part of it because of his leadership on the field general.

[Direckshun]

I agree with this. Why show off the goods if the game is already wrapped up?

Perhaps they are lulling the opposition to sleep, and when the games really matter they are going to unleash hell.

Here's to hoping.

This is exactly the case.

I guarantee you Sutton called off the dogs in the 4th quarter.

There's just no point to playing otherwise.

[Iczer]

On the hail Mary's last night and the pass to Pryor, shows we are vulnerable vs tall receivers.

The Pryor touchdown only shows we're vulnerable to no calls on offensive PI.

[O.city]

I am fairly certain that in Sutton's history here our 2nd half defense has been very very good. We have given up some garbage time points this season but we rarely give up more than 10 points in the 2nd half.

I do think as the season progresses you will start to see more aggressive play on defense but not likely until later in games. And that will also depend on whether we have a big lead or not.

Iirc, they were one of the better 2nd half defensive teams last year.

Sutton gets a lot of unwarranted hate here imo.

[kccrow]

Sutton has reportedly remarked that in the NFL in 2017, QBs are getting the ball out so fast it's a waste of resources to send a heavy rush.

Hard to argue with the results. I don't care about Watson piling up garbage time stats.

I do tend to agree, but I do want to remark that I feel the current NFL is set up for a 4 man front to thrive more so than a 3 man front. The days of sending 5 out of a 3 man front seem to be a thing of the past as teams rush less. Having 4 guys that are quick off the snap and can get to the QB though, that can be tough. I see quite a bit more consistent pressure from these types of teams.

I feel like a 4 man front with quicker, penetrating defensive tackles, while still running mostly a nickle defense is kind of where its at using hybrid safety/linebacker type

[Marcellus]

Iirc, they were one of the better 2nd half defensive teams last year.

Sutton gets a lot of unwarranted hate here imo.

Thats why if we go into half with a lead or within a score I like our chances.

We really really need to get over the playoff hump but we are 26-4 over our last 30 regular season games.

Its remarkably consistent.


We just need to get over that damn playoff hurdle. :cuss:

[Molitoth]

I'd just ask for a little less predictability.

[Rasputin]

Peters wouldn't be acting as much of an Asshat on or off the field with Eric Berry back there.

[Direckshun]

I do tend to agree, but I do want to remark that I feel the current NFL is set up for a 4 man front to thrive more so than a 3 man front. The days of sending 5 out of a 3 man front seem to be a thing of the past as teams rush less. Having 4 guys that are quick off the snap and can get to the QB though, that can be tough. I see quite a bit more consistent pressure from these types of teams.

I feel like a 4 man front with quicker, penetrating defensive tackles, while still running mostly a nickle defense is kind of where its at using hybrid safety/linebacker type

We have the personnel for this, actually. We could do it if we wanted to.

Ford/Hali - Jones - Bailey - Houston

[Rausch]

I do tend to agree, but I do want to remark that I feel the current NFL is set up for a 4 man front to thrive more so than a 3 man front.

I couldn't disagree more.

This is a passing league and if for no other reason the 3-4 is more malleable when it comes to coverages and bringing pressure.

Most 4-3 DE's are completely useless in coverage and often one dimensional (pure pass rushers) and often weak vs. the run.

Ask yourself: for 2 downs what do the best defenses in the NFL run?...

[Easy 6]

It isn't flashy, but at 5-0 it can be called very effective

Nothing is wrong with Bad Bobs defense

[Rausch]

Peters wouldn't be acting as much of an Asshat on or off the field with Eric Berry back there.

I don't want him to mentor my kids - I want him to play corner and win games.

[Rausch]

It isn't flashy, but at 5-0 it can be called very effective

Nothing is wrong with Bad Bobs defense

It's not as sexy on AM highlights but Sutton has done some bizarre shit this year. He's moving Houston around, DL around, mixing up what he does game to game.

This isn't a one aspect thing with us - the whole team is playing very good right now and the coaching is the best I've seen in KC, frankly, ever...

[kccrow]

We have the personnel for this, actually. We could do it if we wanted to.

Ford/Hali - Jones - Bailey - Houston

Sutton does do alot of 2 lineman type of things (or so I recall), but he still asks his down guys to 2-gap and he still has 2 guys standing up. I think it's more of an advantage to 1-gap inside with your edge guys coming out of a 3-point, to try and generate that quick pressure that is needed in today's game, than to do it the way Sutton does.

Either way, so far Sutton's scheme has been moderately successful so I'm not going to really bash him and I have explained that I feel Sutton is being a little conservative given he's down a few horses.

[kccrow]

I couldn't disagree more.

This is a passing league and if for no other reason the 3-4 is more malleable when it comes to coverages and bringing pressure.

Most 4-3 DE's are completely useless in coverage and often one dimensional (pure pass rushers) and often weak vs. the run.

Ask yourself: for 2 downs what do the best defenses in the NFL run?...

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.
Most of the best run defenses in the NFL are 4-3 teams.

The top 10 right now:

1. Denver (3-4 hybrid)
2. Miami (4-3)
3. Philadelphia (4-3)
4. Tampa Bay (4-3)
5. Washington (3-4)
6. Atlanta (4-3)
7. Detroit (4-3)
8. Cleveland (4-3)
9. Carolina (4-3)
10. Minnesota (4-3)

11a and b are even 4-3.


It gets a bit more balanced in terms of sacks, but still favors the 4-3.

The top 10 in the NFL right now in sacks:

1. Jacksonville (4-3)
2. Cincinnati (4-3)
3. Carolina (4-3)
3. Los Angeles C (4-3)
3. Pittsburgh (3-4)
6. Dallas (4-3)
7. Los Angeles R (3-4)
8. Kansas City (3-4)
9. Chicago (3-4)
9. Detroit (4-3)
9. San Francisco (4-3)

So, do tell, what would you choose? And to answer you, I'd choose an aggressive, 4-3, one-gap scheme.

[Rausch]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.
Most of the best run defenses in the NFL are 4-3 teams.

The top 10 right now:

1. Denver (3-4 hybrid)
2. Miami (4-3)
3. Philadelphia (4-3)
4. Tampa Bay (4-3)
5. Washington (3-4)
6. Atlanta (4-3)
7. Detroit (4-3)
8. Cleveland (4-3)
9. Carolina (4-3)
10. Minnesota (4-3)

11a and b are even 4-3.


It gets a bit more balanced in terms of sacks, but still favors the 4-3.

The top 10 in the NFL right now in sacks:

1. Jacksonville (4-3)
2. Cincinnati (4-3)
3. Carolina (4-3)
3. Los Angeles C (4-3)
3. Pittsburgh (3-4)
6. Dallas (4-3)
7. Los Angeles R (3-4)
8. Kansas City (3-4)
9. Chicago (3-4)
9. Detroit (4-3)
9. San Francisco (4-3)

So, do tell, what would you choose? And to answer you, I'd choose an aggressive, 4-3, one-gap scheme.

I see you didn't list the best pass defenses in that, which was my point. Then again arguing after 5 games is a bit premature.

The 3-4 gives you versatility. Since this is a passing league, and it allows for more adaptability in that aspect, I'd argue it's better.

This may be a Ford/Chevy, Mac/PC, Rep/Dem argument. It still depends on talent...

[kccrow]

I see you didn't list the best pass defenses in that, which was my point. Then again arguing after 5 games is a bit premature.

The 3-4 gives you versatility. Since this is a passing league, and it allows for more adaptability in that aspect, I'd argue it's better.

This may be a Ford/Chevy, Mac/PC, Rep/Dem argument. It still depends on talent...

Seriously?

You said for two downs. I'd assume, you mean teams that can force teams into 3rd and long where just about any defense can pin it's ears back and rush.

I showed you then, the best rush defenses (which you argued shouldn't be 4-3 teams and they are) because a good rushing defense tends to help set up that 3rd and long.

So, for your pleasure, here are the best passing D's right now:

1. Pittsburgh (3-4)
2. Cincinnati (4-3)
3. Denver (3-4)
4. Chicago (3-4)
5. Jacksonville (4-3)
6. Washington (4-3)
7. Atlanta (4-3)
8. Miami (4-3)
9. Los Angeles C (4-3)
10. Carolina (4-3)

I don't recall exactly what every team ran last season, but I'm fairly confident that the top 10 in passing D was a 50/50 split based on what I remember as were the top 10 in sacks. Rushing D, I think its 70/30 in favor of 4-3.

So, if I can likely have a better run D while posting at least the same results in the passing game, I'm still going with a 4-3.

You're wrong about rushing defense and you're wrong about a 3-4 being better against the pass.

[kcxiv]

Suttons' defenses arent fun to watch, but they are effective though. Like he said, qb's get the ball out so fast, its not worth blitzing them. (though, ik would have liked to see him blitz a rookie more then he did). Its worked. He's kept teams in check for the most part. Houston got lucky with basically 2 hail mary's.

anyways, lets also not forget we are down 3 fucking starters on the defense as well.

[RunKC]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/917823644356743168/video/1

This is the perfect example of Bob Sutton'a defense. He is purposely lining up to stop the pass and not the run. It's a big mismatch in general and I hope we don't do that this weekend.

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

He looked all-world covering Vernon Davis 30 yards down field too....clueless

Not picking sides here, but you are taking the worst examples of this defense and not the defense in totality. When Houston drops into coverage this is usually a zone blitz, usually a backer or strong safety blitzing. The secondary coverage would either be man (cover 1) or zone. Usually Cover 1. Houston would have 1 on 1 responsibility, usually on the TE, or in zone, if the receiver in his area runs a vert, he may have to chase. However, this defense is designed for quick pressure and to dictate a quick throw. In the examples of this not working we didn't get quick pressure which creates the problem. This defense has been run many times ending in a bad pass, interception or sack and it isn't exposed for it's weakness. If they pick up the rushers this defense is in trouble. However, it has worked many times as well.

[JakeF]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/917823644356743168/video/1

This is the perfect example of Bob Sutton'a defense. He is purposely lining up to stop the pass and not the run. It's a big mismatch in general and I hope we don't do that this weekend.We are paying a lot for pass rushers in a defense that doesn't usually rush the passer.

Should we be paying Justin Houston 22m a year in THIS defensive? Shouldn't we go out and find a great coverage OLB for 6-8m a year instead?

[Ragged Robin]

they're soft as hell, that's what's wrong

[Rausch]

You're wrong about rushing defense and you're wrong about a 3-4 being better against the pass.

I never commented on rush defense - that was your point.

And so far this year (5 games) my argument is getting it's ass kicked on pass defense.

I would argue over the long haul this would be different but - you win.

[RunKC]

We are paying a lot for pass rushers in a defense that doesn't usually rush the passer.

Should we be paying Justin Houston 22m a year in THIS defensive? Shouldn't we go out and find a great coverage OLB for 6-8m a year instead?

He still has 5.5 sacks in 5 games. He's worth the money

[Titty Meat]

Sad how much football talk has fallen on this board. This thread is pathetic.

[Easy 6]

Sad how much football talk has fallen on this board. This thread is pathetic.

Several people that I usually enjoy reading are down on Suttons D, its hard to figure

Why argue with positive results?

Berry is out, and there is no one explosive at OLB across from Houston at the moment

So Bad Bob has decided that instead of trying to turn Zombo into a pass rusher, or young Murray into a veteran stud leader... he is going to flood the backfield, and make QBs thread a needle for 60 minutes

Sutton has adjusted to his current personnel, and with a 5-0 record... its clearly working

[MahiMike]

Good ****ing god

You’re vulnerable to being an utter dipshit at all times

And you're vulnerable to being the asshole we all know you just have to be.

[kccrow]

I never commented on rush defense - that was your point.

And so far this year (5 games) my argument is getting it's ass kicked on pass defense.

I would argue over the long haul this would be different but - you win.

It's not really about winning so much, it's just what I've seen and I'm showing you that the stats are largely indicative of what I've seen.

Here's a link to pressures by defenses: https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-team-defensive-hurries/2016/

Kind of an interesting tell. Most of the top teams the past couple of years were 4-3 Ds. However, KC did lead the NFL in 2015.

[Sandy Vagina]

Several people that I usually enjoy reading are down on Suttons D, its hard to figure

Why argue with positive results?

Berry is out, and there is no one explosive at OLB across from Houston at the moment

So Bad Bob has decided that instead of trying to turn Zombo into a pass rusher, or young Murray into a veteran stud leader... he is going to flood the backfield, and make QBs thread a needle for 60 minutes

Sutton has adjusted to his current personnel, and with a 5-0 record... its clearly working

aw man.. You sure that this is where you want to go on this? "Win record, and why argue with positive results?" With respect.. you feel where I'm kinda getting at with this?

https://media.giphy.com/media/yc8uWSV6R9oBy/giphy.gif

[Danguardace]

We have played Brady, Wentz, Rivers, Cousins and Watson.

And are 5-0 take out 3 Garbage Time scores (2 Watson and 1 Wentz), a clear push off (Pryor) and some home calls for Brady which put the ball at the 1 Yard line a couple of times I'm happy with the Defense as a whole. Hopefully it will get better when guys return Nelson and Hali in particular.

[Chiefnj2]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/917823644356743168/video/1

This is the perfect example of Bob Sutton'a defense. He is purposely lining up to stop the pass and not the run. It's a big mismatch in general and I hope we don't do that this weekend.

Looks like KC's DL got moved.

[Aspengc8]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/917823644356743168/video/1

This is the perfect example of Bob Sutton'a defense. He is purposely lining up to stop the pass and not the run. It's a big mismatch in general and I hope we don't do that this weekend.

What was the down & distance? It's more of a box count issue than a 'stop the pass' issue. Offense wins hat count, 7 v 6.. pretty basic.


Looks like KC's DL got moved.

doesnt matter, they needed an extra guy in the box if they really wanted to stop the run. Asking bailey to two gap in that alignment is dumb.

[Red Dawg]

We are paying a lot for pass rushers in a defense that doesn't usually rush the passer.

Should we be paying Justin Houston 22m a year in THIS defensive? Shouldn't we go out and find a great coverage OLB for 6-8m a year instead?

With what money? We have none hence why Dorsey was canned. He was forced to cut Maclin so we could sign Mahomes.

Money matters building a roster just like drafting. Dorsey only got one of those pieces right.

[PAChiefsGuy]

With what money? We have none hence why Dorsey was canned. He was forced to cut Maclin so we could sign Mahomes.

Money matters building a roster just like drafting. Dorsey only got one of those pieces right.

Dorsey did a great job as a GM. We are 5-0 and Maclin has done nothing with the Ravens. Dorsey was fired because of politics. No GM or HC is perfect, all of them make mistakes.

[milkman]

It's not really about winning so much, it's just what I've seen and I'm showing you that the stats are largely indicative of what I've seen.

Here's a link to pressures by defenses: https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-team-defensive-hurries/2016/

Kind of an interesting tell. Most of the top teams the past couple of years were 4-3 Ds. However, KC did lead the NFL in 2015.

The problem with this argument is that the Chiefs are rarely in their base 34.

Sutton runs subpackages what seems like 70% of defensive snaps.

Back in the day, when ESPN's Matchup show was watchable, Ron Jaworski used to always say that running the ball moves the chains, passing the ball wins the games.

Sutton seems to believe that philosophy.

His alignments are not really set up to stop the run.

But, on the other side, until Watson started throwing up prayers and jump balls from around the middle of the third quarter until the end of the game, he was struggling to have any success in the passing game.

There were more than just 3 jump balls.

He had a lot of prayers answered.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Yup. A ton of fluke completions in that game.

[kccrow]

The problem with this argument is that the Chiefs are rarely in their base 34.

Sutton runs subpackages what seems like 70% of defensive snaps.

Back in the day, when ESPN's Matchup show was watchable, Ron Jaworski used to always say that running the ball moves the chains, passing the ball wins the games.

Sutton seems to believe that philosophy.

His alignments are not really set up to stop the run.

But, on the other side, until Watson started throwing up prayers and jump balls from around the middle of the third quarter until the end of the game, he was struggling to have any success in the passing game.

There were more than just 3 jump balls.

He had a lot of prayers answered.

That's kind of how this all started and is the basis for my belief that, the way Sutton plays defense, the Chiefs are better off moving to a 4-3, one-gap scheme with the 3rd linebacker being that hybrid safety/linebacker type (Sorensen fits that bill).

This would be far more effective from a consistent pressure perspective in my mind. I'd rather see Houston with his hand in the dirt rushing every play than playing this masquerade crap with 5 guys, 3 of whom are 2-gapping and not getting consistent pressure and the other 2 not being ideally suited to cover in the passing game. I think you get better pressure and better run defense from a 4-3 while having equally good coverage in today's game.

Either way, I'm not really bitching about Sutton who I think is doing a good job at using the pieces he has and all of this doesn't mean I think KC is going to up and change schemes.

[booger]

Other teams are doing the same thing the last couple weeks I’ve seen with the 3 man rush. Plus I don’t think some take into account how much coverage responsibilities the OLBs have with the amount of man coverage the team plays. Maybe not that exciting but it’s effective

[booger]

I think a lot of it is just attitude and building a mentality to be able to stop the run better than last year (obviously sucked) in the nickel, dime, and sub packages. I think they relied on a healthy Poe last year and it bit them hard. If he’s healthy you have a stout nt who is also a good rusher. But that player wasn’t the same after the back surgery. Now with Logan he has a guy that has impressed in the pass rush along with strong against the run like he was known for. There’s been more multiple fronts and personnel groupings this year as well. There’s been just like the base but with Sorensen instead of Wilson/Ragland without the nickel back and a 3 man front. There’s been 2 ILB nickel sets with Sorensen at S and KPL and DJ together. Or DJ and Ragland. And the dime KPL has spelled DJ as the lone LB. that’s good to get those guys the reps with them being new and it’s only going to help them long term. Definitely ready for another body to step in the rotation at OLB though