Solar Power in the Midwest

[BWillie]

No I'm not talking about Jorge Soler, but the use of buying solar panels from a company, having them put on your roof.

I talked to a local company today who came to my home, and indicated I was a great candidate for the panels and to save money. I have a large roof space, my home faces the right direction, no trees blocking the sunlight...and I already have a super high energy bill.

Has anyone taken the plunge? The company seems to have mixed reviews. The salesman seemed nice and ready to help, but aren't they all.

It appeared my cost to purchase the panels was about $32,000 but minus a $9,500 or so tax credit puts my actual cost at about $22,500. You can get this financed, at a pretty bad rate of 5.5%. I would most likely pay half of it up front and just finance the rest but even at the $22,500 that would be a payment of about 9-10 years at $244 a month.

If I buy the panels, they will do their own energy audit free of charge and will take action on whatever is needed. Will actually seal up my windows, insulate as needed etc. They assure me they can save me 20% on my utility bill FOR SURE just from the energy audit alone and not even because of the solar panels, but that it is likely upwards to 30-40% since my bills are so high. Then on top of that the soler panel energy is "sold back" (lack of a better word) and I get a credit from Westar on my bill.

What does the planet think about soler in the midwest? I see it everywhere in Arizona & Nevada...much less in Kansas/Missouri..

Curious to see if it makes sense if I'm going to sell my house in 5 yrs and what kind of resale value it does to my house. Worried the panels could become obsolete or degrade over time as well.

[Rausch]

In the midwest it's fucking stupid.

It makes sense in Nevada or New Mexico but here it's just stupid.

[BWillie]

In the midwest it's ****ing stupid.

It makes sense in Nevada or New Mexico but here it's just stupid.

How do you know this? Have you reviewed the potential savings vs cost somewhere? Do you have experience with solar panels no working as planned?

They indicated Missouri/Kansas was a Top 10 state for solar power (but yes salesman can embellish)

[Perineum Ripper]

I heard that if you make more energy than you use that electric companies will buy that power from you. Don’t know if that is true or not. I know a few people here have solar so they would be able to tell you better than I

[Rausch]

How do you know this? Have you reviewed the potential savings vs cost somewhere? Do you have experience with solar panels no working as planned?

Have you considered the unpredictability of the climate and how few months you actually have of return?

If you can afford this to supplement your bills that's fine, but as an actual alternative to standard energy it's not possible. It's not political, it's just not possible...

[ptlyon]

Have better success putting up a wind turbine

[BWillie]

Have you considered the unpredictability of the climate and how few months you actually have of return?

If you can afford this to supplement your bills that's fine, but as an actual alternative to standard energy it's not possible. It's not political, it's just not possible...

I just care about after 5 years, if the cost of the solar panels will be less than the savings of my bill & possible increased resale value of my home. I don't even mind paying 10k or even it all at a lump sum if I need to as long as I will see savings.

[Hoover]

1. I'd never do it if I had to finance it.
2. I think it makes your house look like shit.
3. What happens if I have a problem with my roof, then what?
4. This company would be out of business if there wasn't incentives for people to buy their shit.
5. Talk to your electric provider? Are there incentives you can recieve from them?

[Red Beans]

We did it, and live 30 miles south of Joplin. After rebates were applied to my financing, my loan is $60 less than my averaged electric bill was. The most we have paid as our electric bill was $66 in July. This was before Empire district raised rates in September 2016. And our place isn't exactly optimum for our array, but it's still been cost effective. I would do it again, 10 times out of 10.

[BWillie]

We did it, and live 30 miles south of Joplin. After rebates were applied to my financing, my loan is $60 less than my averaged electric bill was. The most we have paid as our electric bill was $66 in July. This was before Empire district raised rates in September 2016. And our place isn't exactly optimum for our array, but it's still been cost effective. I would do it again, 10 times out of 10.

Thank you. Looking at mainly people who have already done this and seen if the have had adequate cost savings. Or I suppose anyone that knows the industry.

[Spott]

How do you know this? Have you reviewed the potential savings vs cost somewhere? Do you have experience with solar panels no working as planned?

They indicated Missouri/Kansas was a Top 10 state for solar power (but yes salesman can embellish)

I see them used quite extensively in Vermont and upstate NY where it is much colder and perpetually overcast, so I see no reason why they couldn’t be used in Missouri or Kansas.

[Buehler445]

In the old days the panels couldn’t take Hail. I THINK there have been improvements but I don’t know anything.

See what the salesman says about Hail. Make sure your insurance covers them if they get broke to fuck with Hail.

[Donger]

I heard that if you make more energy than you use that electric companies will buy that power from you. Don’t know if that is true or not. I know a few people here have solar so they would be able to tell you better than I

It's called net metering:

https://www.energysage.com/solar/101/net-metering-for-home-solar-panels/

[Rausch]

In the old days the panels couldn’t take Hail. I THINK there have been improvements but I don’t know anything.

No. The more efficient panels are less hail resistant.

See what the salesman says about Hail. Make sure your insurance covers them if they get broke to **** with Hail.

They aren't meant for the midwest - plain and simple.

[rockymtnchief]

https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

I'm not sure how they compare in price, but you wouldn't have to worry once the time came to re-roof your house.

[BigBeauford]

My next question is what impact this has on my home value.

[ptlyon]

My next question is what impact this has on my home value.

Drops like a rock because you look like a tin foil geek

[BigBeauford]

Drops like a rock because you look like a tin foil geek

I think he lives in my neck of the woods (Western Shawnee), and that setup doesnt seem to jive with the areas' cookie-cutterness.

[BWillie]

My next question is what impact this has on my home value.

In my case, all the panels would go on the back of my home. So it would not even be visible from the front.

I'm going to ask my mom who is a real estate agent if it increases the resale value. I supposed it depends who you talk to. Kind of like a swimming pool. I would hate to have a swimming pool, but alot of people would pay more.

I think solar panels on roofs looks kind of cool myself, and I would be much more inclined to buy a home if they had a paid off solar panel system than not.

[Perineum Ripper]

It's called net metering:

https://www.energysage.com/solar/101/net-metering-for-home-solar-panels/

Awesome. Thank you good sir

[BWillie]

https://www.tesla.com/solarroof

I'm not sure how they compare in price, but you wouldn't have to worry once the time came to re-roof your house.

Tesla is actually one reason I do not want to do it. Because I feel like better technology could be out soon that could enable you to completely ween yourself off from KCPL or Westar completely. But right now Tesla for powering your entire home doesn't quite seem cost effective, unless you consider 30 years+ you will for sure stay in your home.

[Donger]

Awesome. Thank you good sir

Sure. I do recall that some utilities do charge you to put your power on their grid, for obvious reasons.

[BWillie]

No. The more efficient panels are less hail resistant.



They aren't meant for the midwest - plain and simple.

The salesman said he would let me take a baseball and throw it at some they have as hard as I can.

I imagine they are less efficient, but more durable panels designed for the midwest. He said they withstand hail no problem, but if I did it I would certainly ensure that my homeowner's insurance knows about it. I would imagine the panels on the roof would also help your roof not wear as quickly too.

[LoneWolf]

First question I would ask is why are your energy bills “super high” currently. What does “super high” mean anyway?

[BWillie]

First question I would ask is why are your energy bills “super high” currently. What does “super high” mean anyway?

$450 in July and August.
$140 best it gets in November.

Combination of drafty windows, lack of alot of insulation I would imagine, and lots of computers, TV, appliance use.

House was built in 2001.

[rockymtnchief]

$450 in July and August.
$140 best it gets in November.

Combination of drafty windows, lack of alot of insulation I would imagine, and lots of computers, TV, appliance use.

House was built in 2001.

Damn, you might look at more insulation first. When it hits -20 here, my power/gas bill is around $150. That's with 2200' sq feet and built in 2001. It's been in the 20's and 30's here lately and my last bill was around $80.

[LoneWolf]

$450 in July and August.
$140 best it gets in November.

Combination of drafty windows, lack of alot of insulation I would imagine, and lots of computers, TV, appliance use.

House was built in 2001.

Fix the drafty windows and upgrade your insulation. I have a 3,400 sq. ft. home and my bill averages $120 in the winter and $225 in the summer. Seems stupid to spend $20k to $30k to install solar without fixing the root cause first. Take care of the root cause first and see what that does to your bill.

[Rausch]

The salesman said he would let me take a baseball and throw it at some they have as hard as I can.

I imagine they are less efficient, but more durable panels designed for the midwest. He said they withstand hail no problem, but if I did it I would certainly ensure that my homeowner's insurance knows about it. I would imagine the panels on the roof would also help your roof not wear as quickly too.

I know I'm not an expert and will defer to better men but my friend in Nevada has 15 year old panels and stated those were ONLY for the desert climate.

The guy that sold him his (back then) stated that it wasn't possible to gain a return in the midwest.

15 years is a long time and I'm sure a lot has changed. Just be sure you've done your due diligence...

[Donger]

$450 in July and August.
$140 best it gets in November.

Combination of drafty windows, lack of alot of insulation I would imagine, and lots of computers, TV, appliance use.

House was built in 2001.

1) Where do you live?

2) How many kWh do you use a month in each season?

[BWillie]

Fix the drafty windows and upgrade your insulation. I have a 3,400 sq. ft. home and my bill averages $120 in the winter and $225 in the summer. Seems stupid to spend $20k to $30k to install solar without fixing the root cause first. Take care of the root cause first and see what that does to your bill.

New windows, new insulation, vinyl siding would probably be even more, no?

[ptlyon]

New windows, new insulation, vinyl siding would probably be even more, no?

Not even close, unless you have 100 windows

[Bewbies]

If I were going to do that the first thing I would look at was where I'm losing energy currently. There are a lot of savings to be had updating your windows, insulation, appliances etc to lower electrical usage.

Once you've done that I'd look at solar. But not before. And personally I'd lean toward a solar roof from Tesla when my roof needed to be replaced. Then it's kind of a 2 for 1.

[LoneWolf]

New windows, new insulation, vinyl siding would probably be even more, no?

Nope, and why would you put vinyl siding on your house. Do you want your house to look like you live in a plastic Barbie mansion?

[BWillie]

1) Where do you live?

2) How many kWh do you use a month in each season?

Live in Shawnee, KS.

Jul 16 3249 kWh
Aug 16 2964
Sept 16 2484
Oct 16 1772
Nov 16 1267
Dec 16 1004
Jan 17 1251
Feb 17 801
Mar 17 765
Apr 17 905
May 17 1146
Jun 17 1918
Jul 17 2172
Aug 17 2206
Sept 17 2080
Oct 17 2048
Nov 17 904

[BWillie]

Nope, and why would you put vinyl siding on your house. Do you want your house to look like you live in a plastic Barbie mansion?

I have regular siding at my rentals, and it is a nightmare. Dry rot like a mother ****er. Have to paint every 5 years. Expensive as **** to maintain. Not efficient at all.

Have siding on my house I live in also, but with areas that are a stucco blend and it's also in much better shape.

[BWillie]

Nope, and why would you put vinyl siding on your house. Do you want your house to look like you live in a plastic Barbie mansion?

I got a quote at my rental house in Olathe for new windows & vinyl siding on the house, it was $24,000. It's just a boring 4 bedroom, 3 bath sublevel house.

Do you know a company that is inexpensive and good around the area?

If I were going to do that the first thing I would look at was where I'm losing energy currently. There are a lot of savings to be had updating your windows, insulation, appliances etc to lower electrical usage.

Once you've done that I'd look at solar. But not before. And personally I'd lean toward a solar roof from Tesla when my roof needed to be replaced. Then it's kind of a 2 for 1.

Yeah, I'm an idiot and already got a new roof 3 weeks ago.

[Donger]

Live in Shawnee, KS.

Jul 16 3249 kWh
Aug 16 2964
Sept 16 2484
Oct 16 1772
Nov 16 1267
Dec 16 1004
Jan 17 1251
Feb 17 801
Mar 17 765
Apr 17 905
May 17 1146
Jun 17 1918
Jul 17 2172
Aug 17 2206
Sept 17 2080
Oct 17 2048
Nov 17 904

How old is your A/C and when was the last time you had it serviced?

Oh, and what are your daytime and overnight cooling setpoints?

[ptlyon]

Live in Shawnee, KS.

Jul 16 3249 kWh
Aug 16 2964
Sept 16 2484
Oct 16 1772
Nov 16 1267
Dec 16 1004
Jan 17 1251
Feb 17 801
Mar 17 765
Apr 17 905
May 17 1146
Jun 17 1918
Jul 17 2172
Aug 17 2206
Sept 17 2080
Oct 17 2048
Nov 17 904

I can tell by the looks of that the wife fires up the sybian more during the summer when you're golfing

[LoneWolf]

I have regular siding at my rentals, and it is a nightmare. Dry rot like a mother fucker. Have to paint every 5 years. Expensive as fuck to maintain. Not efficient at all.

Have siding on my house I live in two with areas that are a stucco blend.

Holy fuck dude. Use Hardie board siding and a high quality paint and caulking. The siding will not rot and you won’t need to paint for 10 years.

[LoneWolf]

I got a quote at my rental house in Olathe for new windows & vinyl siding on the house, it was $24,000. It's just a boring 4 bedroom, 3 bath sublevel house.

Do you know a company that is inexpensive and good around the area?

I’ve got a good friend who is a contractor in your area. Let me reach out to him and see if he has any recommendations.

[Donger]

I can tell by the looks of that the wife fires up the sybian more during the summer when you're golfing

LMAO

[MTG#10]

I have a friend who is a solar salesman in Springfield. He's bounced around to three different companies now (better offers). He admitted to me its not cost effective at all unless you have the money to pay for them upfront and plan on living in your home at least 20 years. This was after a few beers and long after he tried and failed with his sales-pitch on me.

[TambaBerry]

What company did you talk with?

[TambaBerry]

Bwillie I know a lot about the solar industry. Any questions you have I'll give you the honest truth. First thing you need to ask is what type of panels they are putting on your house. Feel free to pm me or I'll try to keep up in this thread.

[BWillie]

How old is your A/C and when was the last time you had it serviced?

Oh, and what are your daytime and overnight cooling setpoints?

AC unit is 1.5 years old. I keep it at 72-73 in the summer. 70 in the winter. Due to scheduling, can't really change what it's at during different times of the day.

I have a friend who is a solar salesman in Springfield. He's bounced around to three different companies now (better offers). He admitted to me its not cost effective at all unless you have the money to pay for them upfront and plan on living in your home at least 20 years. This was after a few beers and long after he tried and failed with his sales-pitch on me.

Rut roh.

[BWillie]

Bwillie I know a lot about the solar industry. Any questions you have I'll give you the honest truth. First thing you need to ask is what type of panels they are putting on your house. Feel free to pm me or I'll try to keep up in this thread.

Hey, thanks. I'll ask them and send you a PM when I find out. Check your rep about what company.

[TambaBerry]

Get type of panels and what inverter they are using.

[Donger]

AC unit is 1.5 years old. I keep it at 72-73 in the summer. 70 in the winter. Due to scheduling, can't really change what it's at during different times of the day.



Rut roh.

How much do you pay per kWh? Does your utility have tiered summer rates based on consumption?

[TambaBerry]

Basically if your panels are built in USA, Germany, south Korea or Taiwan they are good quality panels that with stand up to baseball size hail. If they're built in China run.

[Iowanian]

I know people who have been doing this for a few years and are glad they did. I'd consider it and have a large, unobstructed south facing roof. My issue is I have geothermal heat and hot water and already have a high electric of $200.


It sounds to me like you should check with your energy provider for rebates for home improvements. You might get decent money for insulation and windows even if yiu don't go solar.

[aturnis]

In the old days the panels couldn’t take Hail. I THINK there have been improvements but I don’t know anything.

See what the salesman says about Hail. Make sure your insurance covers them if they get broke to fuck with Hail.

Hail isn't going to affect the panels at all. They are a hell of a lot stronger than you'd think.

https://youtu.be/LQHEqyVMI88

[aturnis]

No. The more efficient panels are less hail resistant.



They aren't meant for the midwest - plain and simple.

Efficiency has ZERO to do with durability. The durability is determined by the glass and frame if there is one. It's 90% glass though.

Glass tech has come a LONG way since the first IPhone. Many installers walk all over them as they install the array. I think a local company installing quite a bit in the last 4-5 years has only a small handful of broken panels(less than 15?) over that time. Mostly from handling and sometimes if you step on it JUST right.

[Red Beans]

It's called net metering:

https://www.energysage.com/solar/101/net-metering-for-home-solar-panels/

Its very enjoyable to watch the meter run backward.

[aturnis]

I know people who have been doing this for a few years and are glad they did. I'd consider it and have a large, unobstructed south facing roof. My issue is I have geothermal heat and hot water and already have a high electric of $200.


It sounds to me like you should check with your energy provider for rebates for home improvements. You might get decent money for insulation and windows even if yiu don't go solar.Are you still in Iowa? Where?

Would you lose a preferred rate for the geo electricity if you got solar?

[notorious]

I am thinking about putting a decent sized wind turbine out at our farm. Anyone have experience with them?

[Buehler445]

I am thinking about putting a decent sized wind turbine out at our farm. Anyone have experience with them?

Friend of mine bought a refurbished one from California when they changed the regs and had to take them down out there.

I don't know any numbers, but I think it was an albatross.

Are you talking a household one?

[Rausch]

Efficiency has ZERO to do with durability. The durability is determined by the glass and frame if there is one. It's 90% glass though.

...

[B_Ambuehl]

Live in Shawnee, KS.

Jul 16 3249 kWh
Aug 16 2964
Sept 16 2484
Oct 16 1772
Nov 16 1267
Dec 16 1004
Jan 17 1251
Feb 17 801
Mar 17 765
Apr 17 905
May 17 1146
Jun 17 1918
Jul 17 2172
Aug 17 2206
Sept 17 2080
Oct 17 2048
Nov 17 904

You can get an idea how good your setup will be just based on how many panels were included in the package they offered you. Here's the avg sun hours per day for springfield, MO area:

Jan: 3.81
Feb: 4.12
Mar: 4.92
Apr: 5.49
May: 5.4
Jun: 5.73
Jul: 5.88
Aug: 6.06
Sep: 5.61
Oct: 4.85
Nov: 4.11
Dec: 3.61

Shawnee, KS should be about the same sunwise. What you do is take the average sun hours per day x the wattage of each panel to determine how much electric each panel generates per day. The biggest home panels produce about .3 kw per hour (300 watts) and most of them are around .25 (250 watts). In january you used 1251 Kwh of electricity, or 41.7 kwh per day and say you get 3.8 average hours of light. So each 300 watt panel would produce 1.14 kwh per day. To fully cover your January electric bill you'd need 36.5 panels.

In August you used 2200 kwh and get 6 sun hours. So that's 73kwh per day. To fully cover your August electric you'd need about 40 300 watt panels.

I'm guessing the package they quoted you on isn't nearly that big, but if you can find out the wattage of each panel you can use that little formula to get a pretty accurate figure into what you might save.

[B_Ambuehl]

Another way to do it is just take the average for the entire year. You're in zone 4 which gives an avg of 4.5 sun hours per day. Your average electric usage is 79.2 kwh/day. I'm guessing they're probably quoting you a standard 10kwh system, which produces 10kwh per sun hour. So you'll probably cover a little more than half that on average (10kw system x 4.5 sun hours = 45 kwh per day).

Looks like shawnee has pretty cheap electricity rates around .07 cents per kw hour. So you'll save about $3.15 per day x 30 days = $94.50/month

But a $244/month finance payment...meh...my back of the napkin math here doesn't make it look like a feasible investment. It really only makes sense economically when electric rates are sky high in places like CA.

[Mike in SW-MO]

Good summary Ambuehl.

Keep in mind you need to know how your utility handles power back into the system. Or are you going to use large battery backup to store power not used for later use.

If you are selling back to the power company, you buy at retail rate and sell at wholesale, usually. Affects your payback rate.

[Over Yonder]

Good summary Ambuehl.

Keep in mind you need to know how your utility handles power back into the system. Or are you going to use large battery backup to store power not used for later use.

If you are selling back to the power company, you buy at retail rate and sell at wholesale, usually. Affects your payback rate.

My wife's mother and step father have panels here in Northern Mo. and this is what they told me about how it works for them here also.

[Iowanian]

Are you still in Iowa? Where?

Would you lose a preferred rate for the geo electricity if you got solar?

I'm in God's country, Southern Iowa.

By preferred rate I assume you're talking about the heat rate from an REC? I'm in the country but not on an REC at my home so I don't get any break on that.

One thing to keep in mind is that the rate they buy back the power on the metering is at a much lower rate per kw than what they're selling.

I do have geothermal, but I'm not sure I'd do it again. It works well for us, but the cost was significantly higher than traditional options. I was kind of screwed on my tax credit and didn't get the $8500 I was promised so it's not as cool fiscally as it might have been.

If the numbers worked, I'd definitely consider solar on the farm.