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pugsnotdrugs19
01-25-2018, 11:23 PM
NOTICE: This article is roughly 4 years old, but the writer (Joe Bussell, @NFLosophy) reposted it today via Twitter because it remains just as relevant if not more. Especially for the Chiefs. Great little read.

Article: https://nflphilosophy.com/qb-purgatory/

I'll spoiler the article below and highlight some key points.

The Alternative Route
QB Purgatory
Posted on November 22, 2013 by Joe Bussell

What if I told you that having a bad quarterback was better than having an above average quarterback? Would you believe it?

Of course you wouldn’t. A team that has Andy Dalton as their starting QB is better off than a team that has Chad Henne starting for them, obviously. Right?

Well, not really.

When looking at the big picture, the complexities of having a mediocre quarterback can actually be more detrimental to a team than having a quarterback that they are sure isn’t the answer.

This is what I call QB Purgatory – the area a team resides in when it has a quarterback who is good enough to win them games but doesn’t have that upper echelon of talent to be able to lift his team to Super Bowl contention level. It’s not really QB heaven (Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Manning) and it’s not really QB hell (Henne/Gabbert). It’s right in the middle, hence QB purgatory.

I’m not here to tell you who is in QB purgatory and who isn’t. I’m simply here to explain what QB purgatory is and why it is so dreadful. From there, I’ll let you draw your own conclusions on which teams and quarterbacks are suffering from being stuck in purgatory.

Defining the Realms

There are some quarterbacks that are elevated by the talent around them and there are others who are so good that they elevate the entire team with their exceptional skills and leadership. The quarterback position is the most influential position in the sport and can act as a levitating force or an anchor for the rest of the team. Every team wants the quarterback who can support a team through tough stretches or piles of injuries, and in the end can take his team to a Super Bowl and win it.

The ultimate goal of every NFL organization is to win the Super Bowl. The preamble to that is having a quarterback who can both get you there and win it solely on his arm if necessary. These are the quarterbacks who can put a team on their throwing shoulder and carry them. They are rare and often come with the “franchise” label attached. This is QB heaven.

At the very bottom, in QB hell, are the teams that know – not think – that their current quarterbacks are not capable of taking them to the Super Bowl. These are quarterbacks that are so bad that the organization is very clear that they will be addressing the position with the utmost priority – usually a top 5 pick.

Everyone else is in QB purgatory. They’re hovering in that middle life that seems never ending (there’s a reason for that) and it’s filled with 8-8 seasons, just missing the playoffs, or maybe even a 9 or 10 win season that gets the team into the playoffs. Getting to the playoffs is a positive but it’s not winning the Super Bowl.

Why It’s So Hard To Escape QB Purgatory

Teams and organizations want to believe they have their answer at quarterback. It’s really a burning desire to believe that the quarterback problem is solved. The hope that a quarterback can be “the guy” can leave teams so disillusioned by the positives that they refuse to acknowledge the fact that their quarterback just isn’t good enough to win the big one. This is why playoff appearances can actually be detrimental to the future success of the franchise. The team is even further disillusioned and therefore further entrenched in QB purgatory.

It’s much like being in a bad romantic relationship. You know it’s not good for you but you’re so afraid of the consequences of letting the other person go. It all comes back to the same concerns. “What if I can’t find anyone better? What if he/she turns out to be much better than I gave him/her credit for? What if I miss out?”

In the same way, teams latch onto the hope that guys like Matt Schaub are good enough to take an otherwise talented team to the game in February and come out holding the Lombardi Trophy. The problem is that he might actually be what’s holding that otherwise talented team back from getting there with his mediocre play.

Players like Schaub are good enough to get teams to 8-8, 9-7, or even 10 wins because they’re solid, not great. And when they’re surrounded with good talent and coaching, teams can get a false-positive reading on their signal caller. That leads them to, “We were so close. If he only progresses a little more then we’ll get there. We can do this.” All of a sudden, another year is burned in QB purgatory.

But what if a team like Tampa Bay or St. Louis became aware they were in QB purgatory and decided to make a concerted effort to escape? Let’s pretend for a second that the Buccaneers or the Rams realized that Josh Freeman or Sam Bradford wasn’t the answer at quarterback and wanted to move on. Now they’re in search of a new quarterback that is able to carry a team.

They’re not going to find their guy in free agency. Franchise quarterbacks never come available on the open market because teams simply don’t let them go when they have one. Peyton’s release from Indianapolis was the perfect storm of events where an organization was able to move directly from one franchise quarterback to another. Drew Brees was considered damaged goods while the Chargers had Philip Rivers waiting for his chance, and that’s why he was able to leave San Diego. Brees was so damaged even the Dolphins were weary of signing him. Their poking and prodding of Brees’ injured throwing shoulder led to a feeling of being unappreciated, and ultimately, to his signing with the Saints. It’s a once a decade occurrence that a potential franchise quarterback hits the open market.

That leaves the draft. Tampa and St. Louis are left to draft their savior at the QB position that will lift them from purgatory into QB heaven. There’s just one problem. Freeman and Bradford were good enough to win 7 games each last season. Because of their decent records, the Bucs and Rams drafted 13th and 16th, respectively, in this year’s draft. By that time, the top-echelon, franchise saving quarterbacks are taken. Drafting in the teens isn’t an effective way to find a franchise quarterback. In the last 20 years, outside of Tom Brady, only Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Joe Flacco have been drafted after pick 11 and won a Super Bowl. Even then, Brees had to go to another team to do it and Rodgers sat for 3 years behind a hall of famer.

The problem is that having a mediocre quarterback actually helps keep a team in QB purgatory by continuing to win just enough games to push them out of prime drafting positions for quarterbacks. Teams then resign to accepting the current QB is the best option and choose to pass on all of the quarterbacks all together. Then, winning a few games feeds the hope of the organization with near playoff misses or even a playoff win.

Even now, the Texans seem to be trying to move on from Matt Schaub. They’ve inserted undrafted backup Case Keenum as the starter and the team’s offense has looked markedly improved. Now the question arises: Is Case Keenum the guy? And the only correct answer is: I don’t know. On a scale from 1 to 10, if Schaub were a 4 and Keenum is a 6, then comparatively Keenum’s 6 might actually appear as an 8. And we’re back to square one, evaluating a quarterback who might be good enough, but we need to wait another year and see.

Another year in QB purgatory. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

The Investment

Once a team has a guy who they believe can be the guy, they’ll give him a year or 2 to prove himself, hoping that he progresses as anticipated. By the time they’ve figured out that he isn’t the savior they had hoped for, they’ve already invested 3 or 4 years into him. When quarterbacks don’t work out, coaching and personnel staffs rarely survive. And the process starts all over again.

Sometimes teams even decide to trade for a quarterback when they don’t have the answer in house. In 2007, the Falcons traded Matt Schaub to the Texans for a pair of 2nd round picks. Schaub was then signed to a new deal for 6 years and $48 million. In 2012, the Texans were still so confident in Schaub that they signed him to a contract extension – 5 years, $66.15 million, with $29.15 guaranteed. Less than 2 years later, the Texans appear ready to move on.

Matt Schaub helped make the Texans relevant in the AFC South after having a rough stretch as an expansion team. He was good enough to lift them out of QB hell but seven years later and with nearly $100 million invested in him, Schaub is watching an undrafted rookie start in his place because he can’t get them to the next level.

Sadly, there are similar stories across the league. Robert Griffin III and Colin Kaepernick looked like the answer last season but seem to have significantly regressed this season. Matt Ryan just signed a new contract for top 5 quarterback money but hasn’t really answered any of the questions that many had of him to this point. Before Joe Flacco got hot last season, I would have placed him squarely in QB purgatory. He won a Super Bowl and got top quarterback money, but has not looked like the same QB that was lighting up defenses last January. Tony Romo’s playoff and primetime struggles are well documented and he was still rewarded a 6-year, $108 million extension this offseason.

The Chicago Bears and Tennessee Titans have injured quarterbacks that they will need to make a decision on this offseason. That decision could determine whether those teams face an extended stay in QB purgatory or if they repent of their sins and ascend into QB heaven. They may even need to go through QB hell to get to QB heaven.

The Alternative

With so much time and money invested in quarterbacks with major concerns about their ability to take their team to the highest level, QB hell doesn’t seem like such a bad place, does it?

The Jaguars are well aware that Chad Henne and Blaine Gabbert are not the future at quarterback in Jacksonville. Instead of signing Gabbert to a major extension and investing a few more failed years into him, the Jags will likely select a quarterback with a top 3 pick and move on.

No fuss. No fighting. There is really nothing to figure out. They know what they need and they’re in a position to get it.

Meanwhile, a team like the Buccaneers finally decided to move on from Josh Freeman after 4 years and they’re now evaluating Mike Glennon. Glennon has looked good as a rookie in the 7 games he’s played. But is he the answer at quarterback or is he just another average quarterback that will hold the Bucs in purgatory for another few years? Tampa may find themselves drafting in the top 5 this May and I have to believe that if that’s where they draft they’ll take a quarterback. However, if they win another few games they’ll fall to the 10-15 range and may be stuck with no viable options to draft that highly at quarterback.

Salvation

The Jaguars are the front runners in the Teddy Bridgewater (or insert your favorite QB here) sweepstakes simply because they are in the deepest depths of QB hell. The Raiders were supposed to be in QB hell. Then Terrelle Pryor looked good for a few games. Then he didn’t. Then Matt McGloin looked good for a game. And, well… we’ll see where that takes them.

The only way to extract oneself from QB purgatory is to find the quarterback good enough to elevate a team out of it. Some teams get lucky and draft a quarterback in the 3rd round that appears to be the franchise quarterback. Other teams will draft themselves out of it via a top 5 pick. Still, others will wallow in their QB purgatory without even being aware of the problem.

Some teams have built themselves a terrific roster around an otherwise average quarterback (Kansas City) and it may be enough to elevate them to a Super Bowl run, but the odds appear stacked against them. Sometimes the sum of all parts is enough to get a team to the Super Bowl and win it, but it takes a solid quarterback to get hot to really push them to Lombardi Trophy winners (Baltimore).

The only true way to escape QB purgatory is to find the right quarterback. Sometimes teams may want to release that anchor of an average quarterback so they can get to QB heaven after a brief trip through QB hell. It’s better down there.

Bill Walsh once described Steve Deberg as, “Just good enough to get you beat.” He understood QB purgatory.

Nickhead
01-25-2018, 11:58 PM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/e71108f7f2b864b41ee229e66a677da1/tumblr_o3amo7VcTe1tnjtx4o3_540.gif

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 12:01 AM
Ghost written by 'Hamas'

dj56dt58
01-26-2018, 06:33 AM
The smart teams move up to get a franchise qb even when they are good, ala GB and Rogers. The Chiefs did this which honestly surprise me, but when you make a move like that, you get a franchise qb to develop while you have great players around him, it makes the process a lot easier

Red Dawg
01-26-2018, 06:54 AM
Same as it's been for over 20 years. No longer is defense and a running game good enough. Without a stud QB that can put a team on his back you are done. It's that simple 9 out of 10 years.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 06:54 AM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.

We just watched our mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of Tennessee in the first half of playoffs... just as we watched the same mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of the Colts in 2013 playoffs.

We then saw a HC do what he does... and playmaking pro receivers for KC.. do what they do.

Figure the rest out. Get a clue. Or don't **** it doesn't matter anymore. Time for the new blood to step in and see what he's got.

Chiefnj2
01-26-2018, 07:17 AM
Foles beat Ryan.
Keenum beat Brees.
Bortles beat Roethlisberger

And you can even argue Mariota beat Smith.

It's a team game. People will realize it by week 5 when Mahomes isn't carrying the team on his back.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 07:22 AM
Foles beat Ryan.
Keenum beat Brees.
Bortles beat Roethlisberger

And you can even argue Mariota beat Smith.

It's a team game. People will realize it by week 5 when Mahomes isn't carrying the team on his back.

And two of those three games featured middling/below average rising above their talent and imitating a franchise QB, though.

Which one of those guys is in the Super Bowl?

The guy who did a franchise QB imitation for a week.

Sure, it's a team game...and Nick Foles dropped tree-fitty and three touchdowns on dat ass.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 07:24 AM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.
.

What's more of a fantasy?

A turd smoker like Alex Smith winning a Super Bowl?

Or a guy with top end talent like Mahomes actually having a chance?

I'll hang up and neg rep.

Chiefnj2
01-26-2018, 07:38 AM
And two of those three games featured middling/below average rising above their talent and imitating a franchise QB, though.

Which one of those guys is in the Super Bowl?

The guy who did a franchise QB imitation for a week.

Sure, it's a team game...and Nick Foles dropped tree-fitty and three touchdowns on dat ass.

The guy who is in the Super Bowl is the guy with the best head coach in the history of the league. One of the greatest QB's in the history of the game and a team full of players who stepped up. Receivers made tough catches instead of dropping the ball. DB's tackled. When a star player went down with injury the coaching staff didn't panic and had a backup plan.

Dayze
01-26-2018, 08:01 AM
What's more of a fantasy?

A turd smoker like Alex Smith winning a Super Bowl?

Or a guy with top end talent like Mahomes actually having a chance?

I'll hang up and neg rep.

LMAO

Dayze
01-26-2018, 08:01 AM
most fans in KC don't even realize they've been in purgatory for 30 years.

bowener
01-26-2018, 08:03 AM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.

We just watched our mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of Tennessee in the first half of playoffs... just as we watched the same mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of the Colts in 2013 playoffs.

We then saw a HC do what he does... and playmaking pro receivers for KC.. do what they do.

Figure the rest out. Get a clue. Or don't **** it doesn't matter anymore. Time for the new blood to step in and see what he's got.

God dammit! I typed out a response to this fucking post, and it fucking crashed.

To sum up what I said before:

Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Montana will carry a fucking team to victory. Smith cannot do it. Coaching mistakes happen, hubris will happen, injuries happen, flukey fucking TDs happen. Brady gets it done. He threw for 138 yards in the 4th quarter last week because it had to be done to win the fucking game. He has had 53 game winning drives, 42 of which are from behind. Manning has 56/45. Alex Smith has 23/19. All of those include playoffs.

Yes, our coaches will go full retard, but a better QB overcomes that. The entire Chiefs team knows Smith won't win the game for them. Smith knows he won't. Watch his melancholy ass on the sideline in a close game and tell me that man inspires you to play through pain to win a game. Then watch Brady in a close game.

It fucking sucks for teams like the Chiefs. The fans know what is coming. As soon as Mariota threw a TD to himself every fan watching knew what was coming; a loss. There is no way in hell any of the QBs I listed lose that game if you kept everything else exactly the same.

edit:
To clarify: I do not disagree with your fair assessment of the Chiefs coaching staff. They are fucking stupid 20% of the time, and usually when they can't afford to be stupid.

notorious
01-26-2018, 08:11 AM
Yep. The current QB/coach combination exacerbates each other’s issues instead of balance them.

Reid needs a QB that cancels out his timely idiotic decisions. Alex multiplied the implications of said decisions. He’s just not built for Reid when it comes to crunch time.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 08:12 AM
Yes, our coaches will go full retard, but a better QB overcomes that. Watch Brady in a close game.

It ****ing sucks for teams like the Chiefs. The fans know what is coming.

edit:
To clarify: I do not disagree with your fair assessment of the Chiefs coaching staff. They are ****ing stupid 20% of the time, and usually when they can't afford to be stupid.

What you're saying is not wrong.. it's more in why you are saying it.

Maybe the young-gun with the golden arm can get that "NFL respect" (hype/favor)... we'll see.

I do watch Brady. His receivers actually make great and critical catches for him. He doesn't get OL holding penalties to keep him down. He get the refs to back him even when he himself fails.

Absolutely, he has confidence. Why wouldn't he?

Good luck with Mahomes, bro. May the NFL deem him as a badly needed QBotF that they can also prop up.

notorious
01-26-2018, 08:14 AM
Good luck with Mahomes, bro. May the NFL deem him as a badly needed QBotF that they can also prop up.


This is more important than a lot of people realize.

penchief
01-26-2018, 08:18 AM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.

We just watched our mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of Tennessee in the first half of playoffs... just as we watched the same mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of the Colts in 2013 playoffs.

We then saw a HC do what he does... and playmaking pro receivers for KC.. do what they do.

Figure the rest out. Get a clue. Or don't **** it doesn't matter anymore. Time for the new blood to step in and see what he's got.

You're missing the part about being able to elevate your team. Smith is JAG. When everything is on script he is competent to good. When the shit hits the fan he shits the bed. Smith needs those around him to prop him up. Mahomes has already proven he makes those around him better.

You are trying to rationalize a position that is delusional.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 08:24 AM
You're missing the part about being able to elevate your team. Smith is JAG. When everything is on script he is competent to good. When the shit hits the fan he shits the bed. Smith needs those around him to prop him up. Mahomes has already proven he makes those around him better.

You are trying to rationalize a position that is delusional.

No missing it. Just not buying that load of horseshit. That's something small children say about superheroes.

If Albert Wilson times his jump and makes the catch, he was elevated by his QB. If Dwayne Bowe taps his second foot in, his QB elevated him too. If that backup TE Charles makes an easy catch, maybe that sparks what should be more points and a win. TE3 elevation from the QB!

It's all bullshit, kid. Brady's guys make the big time catches they need to... and it makes him look like the superhero... Alex's guys fail in the clutch.. and that makes him the loser that can't elevate his team.

Seriously. SO ****ing stupid. The NFL just sits back and laughs at all the knuckleheads that jerk it to their QB superheros.

SAGA45
01-26-2018, 08:26 AM
Alter this article slightly to apply to head coaches, specifically Andy Reid and the head of the nail would be struck.

penchief
01-26-2018, 08:30 AM
No missing it. Just not buying that load of horseshit. That's something small children say about superheroes.

If Albert Wilson times his jump and makes the catch, he was elevated by his QB. If Dwayne Bowe taps his second foot in, his QB elevated him too. If that backup TE Charles makes an easy catch, maybe that sparks what should be more points and a win. TE3 elevation from the QB!

It's all bullshit, kid. Brady's guys make the big time catches they need to... and it makes him look like the superhero... Alex's guys fail in the clutch.. and that makes him the loser that can't elevate his team.

Seriously. SO ****ing stupid. The NFL just sits back and laughs at all the knuckleheads that jerk it to their QB superheros.

It's not horseshit. There is a reason your superhero has never gotten it done. He can't overcome adversity in crunch time. Time and time again, he has shown this. For you to not see it just proves you are delusional.

There are a half dozen examples in the Broncos game where Mahomes made plays that Smith is incapable of making. You know it and I know it. A few of them on third and long. Mahomes doesn't give up on plays the way Smith does. Smith's duck and run in the Titans game in crunch time epitomizes Alex's career.

Alex can thank Andy for his next contract because he will never again look as good as he has in KC.

RunKC
01-26-2018, 09:05 AM
No missing it. Just not buying that load of horseshit. That's something small children say about superheroes.

If Albert Wilson times his jump and makes the catch, he was elevated by his QB. If Dwayne Bowe taps his second foot in, his QB elevated him too. If that backup TE Charles makes an easy catch, maybe that sparks what should be more points and a win. TE3 elevation from the QB!

It's all bullshit, kid. Brady's guys make the big time catches they need to... and it makes him look like the superhero... Alex's guys fail in the clutch.. and that makes him the loser that can't elevate his team.

Seriously. SO ****ing stupid. The NFL just sits back and laughs at all the knuckleheads that jerk it to their QB superheros.

Patrick Mahomes had 3 drops in the first half, an errant snap ruining a drive and 1 drop in the 2nd half and he still made plays leading backups to win against a Denver team with roughly half of their starters still playing.

Thereís always excuses with Alex from you guys. You must be a big excuse machine in your own life.

jd1020
01-26-2018, 09:24 AM
Brady is being made to look like a superhero by his receivers...

Outside of a past his prime Randy Moss I really can't think of a WR off the top of my head who was a stud prior to teaming up with Brady.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 09:44 AM
Patrick Mahomes had 3 drops in the first half

He had two drops on the first TWO PLAYS.

Third play: 50-yard gain.

He also had a dropped TD pass but we still won. ZOUNDS!

The Franchise
01-26-2018, 09:49 AM
Everyone. But. Alex.

KCrockaholic
01-26-2018, 09:52 AM
He had two drops on the first TWO PLAYS.

Third play: 50-yard gain.

He also had a dropped TD pass but we still won. ZOUNDS!

I just liked that in his first ever NFL game he led a comeback drive...After sitting on the bench the whole half and thinking he was done for the day.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 10:17 AM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.

We just watched our mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of Tennessee in the first half of playoffs... just as we watched the same mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of the Colts in 2013 playoffs.

We then saw a HC do what he does... and playmaking pro receivers for KC.. do what they do.

Figure the rest out. Get a clue. Or don't **** it doesn't matter anymore. Time for the new blood to step in and see what he's got.

And my rebuttal, as always, would be that Alex has been good on script for years now. Once the 2nd half comes and he's just gotta make plays, it's a whole different player usually. Especially in the last 2 years it would seem.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 10:21 AM
Foles beat Ryan.
Keenum beat Brees.
Bortles beat Roethlisberger

And you can even argue Mariota beat Smith.

It's a team game. People will realize it by week 5 when Mahomes isn't carrying the team on his back.

And like Clay already pointed out, it's a little different if said middling QB plays like a stud for a day. Joe Flacco has never been a really good or elite QB, but for that one playoff run he looked like one of the best QBs of all time. Foles was as good as possible last Sunday. Bortles played the game of his life vs, PIT. Brees led as clutch of a game winning drive as you will see against the Vikings only to see one of the flukiest plays in NFL history occur on the final drive.

It's not like these guys were carried by their teams to win those playoff games. They played really, really well, and a lot of that was probably related to being elevated by their teammates in crucial moments.

Easy 6
01-26-2018, 10:39 AM
I just liked that in his first ever NFL game he led a comeback drive...After sitting on the bench the whole half and thinking he was done for the day.

That performance bodes so well for our future

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 10:43 AM
The difference between a QB's vaunted success in the eyes of some fans, Pugs, =

those other receivers made the crucial plays that were there.. so it means the QB did his job... which in your eyes = QB forgiveness for a loss.

For KC, those receivers did not make the crucial plays that were there... so it means that the QB did not do his job... which in your eyes = QB condemnation for a loss.

RunKC
01-26-2018, 10:57 AM
Alex pussies out on 3rd/13 and 3rd/9. But it’s not his fault!!!

penchief
01-26-2018, 11:03 AM
The difference between a QB's vaunted success in the eyes of some fans, Pugs, =

those other receivers made the crucial plays that were there.. so it means the QB did his job... which in your eyes = QB forgiveness for a loss.

For KC, those receivers did not make the crucial plays that were there... so it means that the QB did not do his job... which in your eyes = QB condemnation for a loss.

Again, you are delusional. You are rationalizing your inability to see the forest through the trees.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 11:31 AM
The difference between a QB's vaunted success in the eyes of some fans, Pugs, =

those other receivers made the crucial plays that were there.. so it means the QB did his job... which in your eyes = QB forgiveness for a loss.

For KC, those receivers did not make the crucial plays that were there... so it means that the QB did not do his job... which in your eyes = QB condemnation for a loss.

Ridiculous. This isn't some one game sample size. Smith has always struggled to put the team on his back, it doesn't matter if there was a dropped pass or not.

His play was largely elevated in 2017 due to the supporting cast and schemes in which were used. This has been the story for several years now with Alex.

You keep pointing out the WRs making plays for their QB on other teams as if the quality of the throw means nothing. That go ahead TD Brady threw to Amendola last week could not have been placed anymore perfectly.

Maybe if Smith had just a little more gas in that arm, or a little better arc/placement, Albert Wilson is able to haul in that final pass.

GoChargers
01-26-2018, 11:33 AM
I do watch Brady. His receivers actually make great and critical catches for him. He doesn't get OL holding penalties to keep him down. He get the refs to back him even when he himself fails.

Other than Gronk, his receivers would be nobodies without him making them look good. Nobody even heard of Chris Hogan when he was on the Bills. Edelman was drafted in the seventh round. Cooks was a product of Brees before he was a product of Brady.

Brady doesn't usually make his O-line look far worse than it really is by panicking and running into sacks. I remember him doing it once or twice against the Jaguars and it stood out because it was a rare event. Alex does it several times per game.

Alex would still be a loser in the playoffs even if he got the reffing that the Patriots get.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 11:34 AM
Maybe if Smith had just a little more gas in that arm, or a little better arc/placement, Albert Wilson is able to haul in that final pass.

Throwing downfield to small guys is hard!

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56f75ba820c647e52fdad7e9/589f489e440243c9bf313ab1/589f4963b3db2b394536e4bb/1486834224199/Mahomes+-+Baylor+TD+%232.gif

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 11:38 AM
This is more important than a lot of people realize.

Are people SERIOUSLY pinning a lifetime of fandom paying off because the league finally cheats the game in our favor because we drafted a martketable QB?

Do you also go on blind dates secretly hoping your buddy prepaid a whore?

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 11:42 AM
Do you also go on blind dates secretly hoping your buddy prepaid a whore?

Prepaying whores? That's exactly what we did with those dumbass extensions to Cassel and Smith, when they had proven NOTHING.

At least in this case we're getting our QB on the cheap and letting him PROVE he's worth a big deal.

So you should be very excited!!!

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 11:43 AM
Sandy -- I'll tell you exactly how I view QB play in the NFL.

32 teams, 32 rosters.

I believe that Alex Smith, middle of the road type of talent, game manager... can potentially win the Super Bowl with a top 3 overall roster. I would argue that he has probably had that with the 2011 49ers, 2012 49ers, and 2015 Chiefs. All were failures, but under the right circumstances I believe a QB of his caliber can get it done with that type of team. The Jaguars would probably offer that in 2018.

I believe that an elite QB, say Rodgers, Brees to just name a couple.. can win the Super Bowl with a top 15 roster. Doesn't mean that they will, but it goes back to the idea that there is so much more room for error with said star QB. The clutch guy, the guy who can take things over when all else isn't perfect.

Seeing things from that perspective makes the game manager/purgatory route seem so senseless and ignorant. Why should a franchise continually try to accomplish their goal the hard way? It's stupid.

Whether Mahomes is one of those top flight guys remains to be seen but we know undoubtedly that Smith is not, and so... experiment over. No more time for Alexcuses.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 11:51 AM
I stopped reading at the 2011 49ers as top 3 point.

You have gone full Claynus level on Smith, so there's no point in discussing this.

I got 5 years of somewhat worthy fun with Smith in KC. Now you get hopefully 10+ with your boy Pat.

All is fine with that... what's done is done, and looking forward to what is ahead. Hopefully, we can all agree on this much.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 11:56 AM
I stopped reading at the 2011 49ers as top 3 point.


That team was good enough to go to, and win, the Super Bowl. They had a historically elite defense, on par with the Bucs or Ravens, and a very good running game, and great special teams.

But...

https://i.imgur.com/RxzRYVs.gif

The Franchise
01-26-2018, 11:59 AM
That team was good enough to go to, and win, the Super Bowl. They had a historically elite defense, on par with the Bucs or Ravens, and a very good running game, and great special teams.

But...

https://i.imgur.com/RxzRYVs.gif

But Kyle Williams fumbled the ball!11!!11!11

The Franchise
01-26-2018, 12:00 PM
I stopped reading at the 2011 49ers as top 3 point.

You have gone full Claynus level on Smith, so there's no point in discussing this.

I got 5 years of somewhat worthy fun with Smith in KC. Now you get hopefully 10+ with your boy Pat.

All is fine with that... what's done is done, and looking forward to what is ahead. Hopefully, we can all agree on this much.

Hopefully you're fucking gone.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 12:02 PM
I stopped reading at the 2011 49ers as top 3 point.

You have gone full Claynus level on Smith, so there's no point in discussing this.

I got 5 years of somewhat worthy fun with Smith in KC. Now you get hopefully 10+ with your boy Pat.

All is fine with that... what's done is done, and looking forward to what is ahead. Hopefully, we can all agree on this much.

What wasn't true about the post? Can a strong argument not be made that they had a top 3 roster? Hell, I would say top two.

Mile High Mania
01-26-2018, 12:02 PM
Rivers, Stafford, Ryan, Smith, Carr, Dalton, Flacco (fluke/oddity), Cutler, Palmer...

Those are 9 QBs that define QB Purgatory for me. They've been around a while and with guys like Flacco and Ryan, they may make it to a SB one... possibly win one, but that's all they've got. And, they'll be "good enough" to keep them employed for that team for a while.

Cam Newton is a fringe option for me here. He could very well be the 10th QB on that list, but I'm not ready to put him there yet.

We all know who the badasses are... and if you're not on that list or the purgatory list, you're either just a career spare (Foles, McCown, etc) that can have some good moments, an unproven commodity (Mahommes, Mariotta, Jameison) or just a collection of guys (all the rest).

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 12:07 PM
I actually think Stafford could be an elite guy, but he's never had a very good roster around him. His 2011 team was pretty good, aside from that it's been below average.

Rivers is in a similar situation IMO and Carr is a hard read because I don't think he is as good as his 2016 self or as bad as his 2017 self.

Mile High Mania
01-26-2018, 12:10 PM
I actually think Stafford could be an elite guy, but he's never had a very good roster around him. His 2011 team was pretty good, aside from that it's been below average.

Rivers is in a similar situation IMO and Carr is a hard read because I don't think he is as good as his 2016 self or as bad as his 2017 self.

Yeah, but I think you're giving those guys a pass to some degree with the comment. Carr could in deed be a fringe guy, in the manner that I described Newton.

Rivers and Stafford, at times, have had great talent around them... but what makes the elite guys elite? It's a combination of incredible play and leadership. Early on, Rivers was a douche and while he's matured a lot and quite honestly, I'd take him in Denver in a heartbeat...

But, overall, those guys should have done something big in the playoffs and somewhat consistently over the last decade.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 12:16 PM
Yeah, but I think you're giving those guys a pass to some degree with the comment. Carr could in deed be a fringe guy, in the manner that I described Newton.

Rivers and Stafford, at times, have had great talent around them... but what makes the elite guys elite? It's a combination of incredible play and leadership. Early on, Rivers was a douche and while he's matured a lot and quite honestly, I'd take him in Denver in a heartbeat...

But, overall, those guys should have done something big in the playoffs and somewhat consistently over the last decade.

I don't know, I guess I just view Rivers and Stafford as very good quarterbacks, not elite but certainly above purgatory in my mind..

Purgatory to me is Smith, Flacco (typically), Dalton, and Mariota on the AFC side. Just good enough that you aren't moving on, but also just good enough to have to pay big cap dollars for a short playoff run.

I think Carr will wind up as either the really good (Rivers type), or a purgatory guy. Gruden might help.

Frosty
01-26-2018, 12:42 PM
While I agree with the general sentiment of the article, it obviously takes more than just an elite QB to be a consistent SB winner. Despite being around forever, Rodgers and Brees have as many SB wins (and appearances) as Flacco. Manning and Big Ben both have 3 appearances with two wins but each have a win that you could argue they weren't really a factor for.

Part of the problem is that once your QB gets paid, you are hamstrung from putting a complete team around them, like Seattle is going through now. In this day and age, you better get your SB win while your QB is on his rookie contract or have a QB willing to play below market/cheat the cap like Brady. That's why wasting another year of Mahome's rookie contract is stupid.

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 12:53 PM
Prepaying whores? That's exactly what we did with those dumbass extensions to Cassel and Smith, when they had proven NOTHING.

At least in this case we're getting our QB on the cheap and letting him PROVE he's worth a big deal.

So you should be very excited!!!

Dipshit, I'm not talking about the gamble of a new QB on the hope of increased production or ability. I'm talking about picking your QB based on the hope that the league will bend the results in his favor to promote him.

SAUTO
01-26-2018, 12:56 PM
I think you people are ****ing stupid with all your bullshit fantasies.

We just watched our mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of Tennessee in the first half of playoffs... just as we watched the same mediocre, purgatory QB kick the ass of the Colts in 2013 playoffs.

We then saw a HC do what he does... and playmaking pro receivers for KC.. do what they do.

Figure the rest out. Get a clue. Or don't **** it doesn't matter anymore. Time for the new blood to step in and see what he's got.
Its been shown the play calling didn't change, the decisions on the field did.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 01:01 PM
I'm talking about picking your QB based on the hope that the league will bend the results in his favor to promote him.

Yes, but you used a poor analogy to communicate your "point."

Reerun_KC
01-26-2018, 01:03 PM
Are people SERIOUSLY pinning a lifetime of fandom paying off because the league finally cheats the game in our favor because we drafted a martketable QB?

Do you also go on blind dates secretly hoping your buddy prepaid a whore?



You know, not really sure. But I bet we will have a clearer picture once the 1000s of other posters weigh in on this with their conservative thoughts.

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 01:07 PM
Yes, but you used a poor analogy to communicate your "point."

In both instances you are entering what is ostensibly a situation based on merit and assessment of your qualities and abilities, hoping that the entire enterprise has been skewed artificially in your favor.

notorious
01-26-2018, 01:33 PM
Are people SERIOUSLY pinning a lifetime of fandom paying off because the league finally cheats the game in our favor because we drafted a martketable QB?

Do you also go on blind dates secretly hoping your buddy prepaid a whore?

Simple question: Can you name one sport in which the stars donít get breaks?

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 01:42 PM
Simple question: Can you name one sport in which the stars donít get breaks?

Too many variables to know either way for certain.

But there's still a difference between accepting that there may be instances where, despite every effort to be fair, the refs let their imperfections affect their judgment, and basing your fandom on hopes that the entire enterprise is rigged in your favor.

Like I've said forever, and no one answers.

For those who are only interested in QBs chucking it long, why not just focus all your fandom on the QB skills competition?

And for those who are only interested in a sporting competition rigged in your favor with predetermined outcomes, why not just focus your fandom on WWE?

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 01:58 PM
For those who are only interested in QBs chucking it long

Which is literally no one.

There are critical elements in Alex's ENTIRE GAME which are lacking, not just deep passing.

Mahomes fills a lot of those voids.

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 02:02 PM
Hit dogs holler!!

ROFL ROFL

AssEaterChief
01-26-2018, 03:13 PM
I wonder what Bill Walsh would say about ASS11Ö.

Funny, I found this old article (2010) actually comparing Alex Smith to Deberg...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/473108-is-alex-smith-the-next-steve-deberg-well-so-far-hes-been-worse

jd1020
01-26-2018, 03:28 PM
Simple question: Can you name one sport in which the stars don’t get breaks?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIGDmlDVEAA9FF7.jpg

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 03:48 PM
I wonder what Bill Walsh would say about ASS11….

Funny, I found this old article (2010) actually comparing Alex Smith to Deberg...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/473108-is-alex-smith-the-next-steve-deberg-well-so-far-hes-been-worse

Can tell you what Joe Montana thought of Alex...


Montana further explained Smith's previous struggles before Harbaugh’s arrival:

At one point, one of the guys down at the 49ers gave me some video and said, "will you watch Alex?" And I watched about five minutes and I called him back and go, "Well, your offense sucks! You've put this poor guy in a terrible situation. You guys are in third-and-long all the time, and there’s nobody even on the screen that I can even see half the time. So what’s the guy going to do? There’s no place to dump the ball… "

Again, Montana makes an excellent point. A quarterback needs a solid supporting cast to be successful, and for the longest take, Smith only had subpar targets like Antonio Bryant and Arnaz Battle. Conversely, elite quarterbacks like Peyton Manning have had an array of reliable targets like Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.

Montana went on to say that Smith has more support now than ever, and it’s
apparent in how he plays more confidently:

It’s not often that a quarterback earns praise from a legendary quarterback like Joe Montana, but for Alex Smith, it should mean a lot. Montana added, "I think the turnaround has been great, and it’s fun to watch him again."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1412943-alex-smith-what-does-the-great-joe-montana-think-of-the-49ers-quarterback


Montana on Alex smith: "I love Alex. I really thought he should still be in SF but it is what it is. #Chiefs #49ers
1:23 p.m. Wed, Jan 22
https://mobile.twitter.com/bobfescoe/statuses/426102816877203456?screen_name=bobfescoe


3rd best win % over the last several years. Remember that, ya fat son of a bitch!!!!!

http://cdn.moviestillsdb.com/sm/ee8fbbc1dc129a6ef3b9f828d12c1c32/the-last-boy-scout.jpg

jd1020
01-26-2018, 03:51 PM
3rd best win % over the last several years. Remember that, ya fat son of a bitch!!!!!

I may be wrong but I dont believe that will boast his resume enough to make it into the HoF.

Dayze
01-26-2018, 03:52 PM
everyone knows year 13 is when everything starts to come together.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 03:53 PM
I may be wrong but I dont believe that will boast his resume enough to make it into the HoF.

Nobody really gives a shit about the HOF anymore. It's just a glorified pat on the head and kick in the ass to retirement... whoooopity-doo.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 04:03 PM
Nobody really gives a shit about the HOF anymore. It's just a glorified pat on the head and kick in the ass to retirement... whoooopity-doo.

Yeah... that's not true at all.

Can't believe you waste so much energy trying to spin the reality of Alex's physical limitations. Not even he would care this much about his player perception.

jd1020
01-26-2018, 04:21 PM
Nobody really gives a shit about the HOF anymore. It's just a glorified pat on the head and kick in the ass to retirement... whoooopity-doo.

Another Alexcuse?

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 04:24 PM
3rd best win % over the last several years. Remember that, ya fat son of a bitch!!!!!


He's Jake Plummer II.

Sucked shit early in his career, found some success once things stabilized under a real head coach, still never won shit.

But at least Plummer got to an AFCCG.

So that's what you get. A poor man's Jake Plummer.

Jake with Denver: .722 win percentage, 197 YPG, 1.31 TD/G, 1-3 in the playoffs

Alex with Chiefs: .657 win percentage, 230 YPG, 1.34 TD/G, 1-4 in the playoffs.

ROFL

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 04:38 PM
Better that than to be some internet geek nearing 200k posts.. and scrounging for Taco Bell coupons... and obsessed in talking about that 100+ million dollar man though, amirite?

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 04:45 PM
Better that than to be some internet geek nearing 200k posts.. and scrounging for Taco Bell coupons... and obsessed in talking about that 100+ million dollar man though, amirite?

There it is. The money line again.

So weird.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 04:48 PM
There it is. The money line again.

So weird.

Oh, just go with it, lol. The fact that people (like you, it seems) get indignant about me bringing up his money.. suggests that there is indeed a nerve struck.

Claynus wants to ROFL at Smith's situation? maybe what he should be doing is really ROFL at his own instead.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 04:50 PM
Oh, just go with it, lol. The fact that people (like you, it seems) get indignant about me bringing up his money.. suggests that there is indeed a nerve struck.

Claynus wants to ROFL at Smith's situation? maybe what he should be doing is really ROFL at his own instead.

It only 'strikes a nerve' because it makes no sense.

Sandy Vagina
01-26-2018, 05:30 PM
It only 'strikes a nerve' because it makes no sense.

Well, that's just bizarre that a fellow as intelligent like yourself can't wrap your mind around it.

Hammock Parties
01-26-2018, 05:41 PM
Better that than to be some internet geek nearing 200k posts.. and scrounging for Taco Bell coupons... and obsessed in talking about that 100+ million dollar man though, amirite?

When you have absolutely no facts worth a shit to refute an obvious truth, just attack personally, right?

Fucking Alexian scum.

I can't wait to see you banned.

By the way, I'm eating Thai food tonight. With an exquisite wine pairing. I think I've eaten Taco Bell once in the last year.

Blow me.

pugsnotdrugs19
01-26-2018, 05:45 PM
Well, that's just bizarre that a fellow as intelligent like yourself can't wrap your mind around it.

Who the fuck can? Most grown men don't give two fucks if a professional athlete is financially stable, much less loaded with millions. Ain't my money. I don't count it. I don't spend it. Oh, and you don't either.

But you know what does have an effect on me? When the QB doesn't play well enough to push my favorite team to victory.

penchief
01-26-2018, 06:05 PM
Well, that's just bizarre that a fellow as intelligent like yourself can't wrap your mind around it.

The thing that is bizarre is that you would think it relevant to inject Smith's fortune into a debate about his on field performance. This says more about you than it does Smith or anyone else involved in this debate.

It clearly shows that your infatuation with Smith goes beyond his role as a football player. It's obvious that Alex Smith is your personal hero. But dude, please, you're starting to come off as a psycho.

That said, Smith is a good dude, a competent quarterback, and a multi-millionaire. But that is all he is. He's not a top tier quarterback because he chokes under pressure. And he certainly isn't worthy of hero worship. It's creepy, man. Just creepy.

Easy 6
01-26-2018, 06:29 PM
everyone knows year 13 is when everything starts to come together.

LMAO

GoChargers
01-26-2018, 06:38 PM
Nobody really gives a shit about the HOF anymore. It's just a glorified pat on the head and kick in the ass to retirement... whoooopity-doo.

Yeah, yeah. The Hall of Fame doesn't matter because the only way Alex ever gets in is if he buys a ticket. Evaluating QB play doesn't matter because every other player on the roster didn't play perfectly at all times. The playoffs don't matter because Alex game-manages his way to regular season wins.

It's just cringeworthy. How are you not embarrassed to click "Submit Reply" after you type out this drivel?

RippedmyFlesh
01-26-2018, 07:07 PM
Dipshit, I'm not talking about the gamble of a new QB on the hope of increased production or ability. I'm talking about picking your QB based on the hope that the league will bend the results in his favor to promote him.

This shows you know nothing about sports. Ask any nba fan if calls are slanted towards star players. Good pitchers get the balls just off home plate and nobodies or jags don't. Happens in football too. Smith is a jag and not getting calls. Mahomes could be special and will get calls if he is.

Baby Lee
01-26-2018, 07:44 PM
This shows you know nothing about sports. Ask any nba fan if calls are slanted towards star players. Good pitchers get the balls just off home plate and nobodies or jags don't. Happens in football too. Smith is a jag and not getting calls. Mahomes could be special and will get calls if he is.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to maintain your sense of dignity while rooting for the existence and benefit of a rigged contest.

beach tribe
01-26-2018, 10:15 PM
What you're saying is not wrong.. it's more in why you are saying it.

Maybe the young-gun with the golden arm can get that "NFL respect" (hype/favor)... we'll see.

I do watch Brady. His receivers actually make great and critical catches for him. He doesn't get OL holding penalties to keep him down. He get the refs to back him even when he himself fails.

Absolutely, he has confidence. Why wouldn't he?

Good luck with Mahomes, bro. May the NFL deem him as a badly needed QBotF that they can also prop up.

Brady has 53 game winning drives, like the man said.
Alex has 23.

I'm sure it was everyone else not stepping up that made those numbers no glaringly lopsided.

beach tribe
01-26-2018, 10:19 PM
There it is. The money line again.

So weird.

It's so gay.

It's like he finds Alex more attractive because he's wealthy.

RippedmyFlesh
01-27-2018, 12:32 AM
Whatever you have to tell yourself to maintain your sense of dignity while rooting for the existence and benefit of a rigged contest.

Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
Dipshit, I'm not talking about the gamble of a new QB on the hope of increased production or ability. I'm talking about picking your QB based on the hope that the league will bend the results in his favor to promote him.

So is it rigged or not?

Baby Lee
01-27-2018, 12:51 AM
So is it rigged or not?

Already answered

Too many variables to know either way for certain.

. . . accepting that there may be instances where, despite every effort to be fair, the refs let their imperfections affect their judgment

Are you confusing the fact that you are hoping that the game is rigged so Patrick might benefit if they rig it in his favor with me thinking that the game actually is rigged?

RippedmyFlesh
01-27-2018, 12:58 AM
Already answered



Are you confusing the fact that you are hoping that the game is rigged so Patrick might benefit if they rig it in his favor with me thinking that the game actually is rigged?

Being rigged is stretching it. I don't believe there is some grand scheme. Superstars getting calls doesn't mean it's rigged it's just what happens in sports. There are people here that swear things aren't rigged but know stars get calls their way.

Baby Lee
01-27-2018, 01:04 AM
Being rigged is stretching it. I don't believe there is some grand scheme. Superstars getting calls doesn't mean it's rigged it's just what happens in sports. There are people here that swear things aren't rigged but know stars get calls their way.

If you [the royal you] believe that stars get the calls, then the game is rigged. That is, unless there is some part of the rulebook I'm unaware of that states that stars get the calls.

ANd I just have trouble empathizing with someone who is actually invested in the outcome of a rigged game. That's what the WWE is for, if you're into it.

RippedmyFlesh
01-27-2018, 01:09 AM
If you [the royal you] believe that stars get the calls, then the game is rigged. That is, unless there is some part of the rulebook I'm unaware of that states that stars get the calls.

ANd I just have trouble empathizing with someone who is actually invested in the outcome of a rigged game. That's what the WWE is for, if you're into it.

Lebron james doesn't get calls his way? tom brady doesn't get calls his way?
I'm done you just don't get it.

Chris Meck
01-27-2018, 12:34 PM
back to the OP-I've been saying for years that at any point in time, I figure that there are five guys on the planet that can play NFL QB at an elite level. That's it. If you don't have one of those five guys, you'd better be trying to find one. Otherwise it takes a perfect storm to win ONE SB. However, if you have one of those five guys the window is open for as long as you do. Just a shorter version of the longer article.

Easy 6
01-27-2018, 03:25 PM
There is ONE way to escape purgatory, but it takes balls of steel because it comes with great risk

But if GM X really loves some kid in the draft, nothing is stopping him from mortgaging his top picks in current and future drafts in order to move up