Are We Headed For Vermeil 2.0?

[petegz28]

The way Mahomes can sling the ball shows promise for some high scoring offense. That being said, is the defense going to be able to cut it this season?

One thing that bailed out the defense to a degree the last few seasons was that Smith rarely turned the ball over. Even in a 3 & out situation, MVP usually kicked the ball deep enough to control field position.

Mahomes is neither Green nor Smith. I think he will put up the points Green did but obviously is going to have more turnovers than Smith did. Which is okay. But the defense can't be what it has been.

The defense and Bob Sutton are going to have to learn how to help out when those turnovers happen as they are probably going to happen more than they are used too given the nature of Mahomes. We know there are going to be some great passing plays. We also know that gunslingers will usually throw a few more INT's as well trying to make plays happen. Again, that is okay.

The Sutton defense of "bend but don't break" may have to take a page out of the Denver defense and start really getting after the QB and actually shutting down offenses before they get into FG range, etc.

If our defense is anything like has been during the Sutton era, we could be heading toward Vermeil 2.0 where you're going to have to hope 49 points is enough to win.

[O.city]

Well, they brought in a shit load of new starters on D, so I think the front office agrees?

[petegz28]

Well, they brought in a shit load of new starters on D, so I think the front office agrees?

I'm more worried about Sutton more than the players.

[O.city]

I'm more worried about Sutton more than the players.

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?

[SuperChief]

I thought Pete was just "DC loony." Apparently it carries over into football takes. That's unfortunate. Get well soon!

[petegz28]

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.

Sutton's defenses over the last few years have taken on a pattern of playing soft. I am just a bit concerned that in all the defensive issues, the coach of the defense is not being looked at as part of the problem.

We cannot continue playing a 3 man rush, playing CB's 10 yards off on 3rd and medium, consistently giving up 3rd and long and then claiming victory because after a 7 minute drive we held the other team to a FG.

That hasn't really worked well.

[Baby Lee]

When I'm pessimistic, I estimate we're entering the era of the Culpepper Vikings or the Stafford Lions.

When I'm cautiously hopeful, I estimate we're entering McNabb 2.0

When I daydream, I daydream we're charting new territory.

[O.city]

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.

Sutton's defenses over the last few years have taken on a pattern of playing soft. I am just a bit concerned that in all the defensive issues, the coach of the defense is not being looked at as part of the problem.

We cannot continue playing a 3 man rush, playing CB's 10 yards off on 3rd and medium, consistently giving up 3rd and long and then claiming victory because after a 7 minute drive we held the other team to a FG.

That hasn't really worked well.

If we go by the statistics, they've had really good defenses. If we go by Pete's feelings, maybe not.


The 14,15,16 defenses were pretty damn good.

[petegz28]

When I'm pessimistic, I estimate we're entering the era of the Culpepper Vikings or the Stafford Lions.

When I'm cautiously hopeful, I estimate we're entering McNabb 2.0

When I daydream, I daydream we're charting new territory.

Let's hope it's this...I think our offense is going to tear shit up. I just would like to see our defense improve.

[Eleazar]

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?

Because the entire thing is built on the team riding their luck with turnovers, and that doesn't work consistently against great teams.

[Baby Lee]

If we go by the statistics, they've had really good defenses. If we go by Pete's feelings, maybe not.


The 14,15,16 defenses were pretty damn good.

Why does the D get to enjoy regular season metrics to get the label of 'pretty damn good,' but the O gets the playoff metrics of a 'complete waste of time and talent?'

[O.city]

They gave up 22 points in a playoff game and lost. Gave up 18 to the Steelers at home, lost. 27 on the road in New England. Lost.

[KCUnited]

This is starting to look similar to a TrINT like season.

[loochy]

No, it's not Vermiel 2.0

They're actually TRYING to address defensive problems

and the overall talent level is much higher

Will the D be great? No. But it won't be Bartee and Warfield back there either.
Posted via Mobile Device

[O.city]

Because the entire thing is built on the team riding their luck with turnovers, and that doesn't work consistently against great teams.

Actually, it kind of does. Against great teams, unless you have a great defense, it's tough to consistently get stops without turnovers.

[petegz28]

They gave up 22 points in a playoff game and lost. Gave up 18 to the Steelers at home, lost. 27 on the road in New England. Lost.

I never said the offense was without blame. But the fact is the offense put the defense in great position twice in the playoffs and they choked.

And the Steelers game, yeah 18 points. What was the average ToP for the Steelers that game?

[O.city]

Why does the D get to enjoy regular season metrics to get the label of 'pretty damn good,' but the O gets the playoff metrics of a 'complete waste of time and talent?'

I'm not sure I've ever brought that up or addressed it that way?

[petegz28]

No, it's not Vermiel 2.0

They're actually TRYING to address defensive problems

and the overall talent level is much higher

Will the D be great? No. But it won't be Bartee and Warfield back there either.
Posted via Mobile Device

I think Vermeil "tried". I am not saying they are shooting for Vermeil style team either. Just questioning if that is what we are heading for at the moment, regardless of intent by the front office\coahces, etc.?

[O.city]

I never said the offense was without blame. But the fact is the offense put the defense in great position twice in the playoffs and they choked.

And the Steelers game, yeah 18 points. What was the average ToP for the Steelers that game?

I don't remember seeing TOP on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

In the end, they held the Steeler offense to field goals and 18 points. You've gotta win that game.

[petegz28]

Actually, it kind of does. Against great teams, unless you have a great defense, it's tough to consistently get stops without turnovers.

Great teams get stops and turnovers. They shut down the run, not hope for a fumble. They shut down the pass, not hope for an overthrown INT.

[petegz28]

I don't remember seeing TOP on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

In the end, they held the Steeler offense to field goals and 18 points. You've gotta win that game.

Yeah, cause the Steelers putting together long, time-consuming drives had nothing to do with that game.

[O.city]

Great teams get stops and turnovers. They shut down the run, not hope for a fumble. They shut down the pass, not hope for an overthrown INT.

The Chiefs haven't just hoped for them though. They've actually gotten them.

[Bowser]

I'll take 10% less of a Vermeil led offense if we can get 50% more than a Vermeil led defense. That might work.

[O.city]

Yeah, cause the Steelers putting together long, time-consuming drives had nothing to do with that game.

Ok, sure?

Once they held them to field goals they got the ball to the offense which shit everywhere.

[Simply Red]

we'll be fine.

[petegz28]

Ok, sure?

Once they held them to field goals they got the ball to the offense which shit everywhere.

I'll sum up the defense and Bob Sutton in the Steelers game real easy for you....


Justin Houston (top pass rusher in the league) covering Antonio Brown (top WR in the league) 50+ yards downfield....

Then when the game was absolutely on the line on 3rd down....Justin Houston is yet again covering Antonio Brown instead of rushing the QB


Bob Sutton....

[Baby Lee]

Ok, sure?

Once they held them to field goals they got the ball to the offense which shit everywhere.

They didn't hold them to FGs, stupid playcalling and abysmal execution by Roethlisberger gifted them FGs.

They consistently, almost inexorably, marched untouched from 20 to 20, and stalled on three horrid passes once in easy FG range.

[petegz28]

I'll take 10% less of a Vermeil led offense if we can get 50% more than a Vermeil led defense. That might work.

Probably would. Just think if we forced 1 or 2 punts in the Indy game?

[O.city]

I'll sum up the defense and Bob Sutton in the Steelers game real easy for you....


Justin Houston (top pass rusher in the league) covering Antonio Brown (top WR in the league) 50+ yards downfield....

Then when the game was absolutely on the line on 3rd down....Justin Houston is yet again covering Antonio Brown instead of rushing the QB


Bob Sutton....

18 points. That offense, scored 18 points.

If my defense gives up 18 points at home, in a playoff game, I don't care what happens, you should win. That games on Andy and the offense.

[RealSNR]

Why does the D get to enjoy regular season metrics to get the label of 'pretty damn good,' but the O gets the playoff metrics of a 'complete waste of time and talent?'

All defenses eventually suck ass in the playoffs.

Look at the Super Bowl. Look at the Vikings. The mighty Jaguars gave up a fuckton of points to the Steelers.

[O.city]

They didn't hold them to FGs, stupid playcalling and abysmal execution by Roethlisberger gifted them FGs.

They consistently, almost inexorably, marched untouched from 20 to 20, and stalled on three horrid passes once in easy FG range.

Ok.

Now do Alex and the offense

[petegz28]

They didn't hold them to FGs, stupid playcalling and abysmal execution by Roethlisberger gifted them FGs.

They consistently, almost inexorably, marched untouched from 20 to 20, and stalled on three horrid passes once in easy FG range.

I will give the d credit to the point that they often tightened up inside the 20 simply because they had the back of the end zone as a 12th defender

[loochy]

I think Vermeil "tried". I am not saying they are shooting for Vermeil style team either. Just questioning if that is what we are heading for at the moment, regardless of intent by the front office\coahces, etc.?

Do you? I think he didn't. I genuinely felt like he didn't care and told his assistants / dc "here you go, do what you can, kthxbai."
Posted via Mobile Device

[petegz28]

18 points. That offense, scored 18 points.

If my defense gives up 18 points at home, in a playoff game, I don't care what happens, you should win. That games on Andy and the offense.

Except when maybe facing a good defense???

That game, is on the coaching PERIOD! Which is my entire fucking point.

[petegz28]

Do you? I think he didn't. I genuinely felt like he didn't care and told his assistants / dc "here you go, do what you can, kthxbai."
Posted via Mobile Device

I will say be made some effort as long as it wasn't at the expense of the offense. But in St. Louis he had a defense in the top 5 the year they won the SB. So he wasn't hell bent on a formula of all offense, no defense.

[O.city]

Except when maybe facing a good defense???

That game, is on the coaching PERIOD! Which is my entire ****ing point.

But when facing a good offense, the defense got lucky to hold them to 18 points.

Going into that game, what were you thinking would have been a good outing for the D?

[O.city]

I will say be made some effort as long as it wasn't at the expense of the offense. But in St. Louis he had a defense in the top 5 the year they won the SB. So he wasn't hell bent on a formula of all offense, no defense.

Top 5 by what metric?

[DaFace]

At least this year, I don't think the offense will be that good, and I don't think the defense will be that bad.

Offense:
Green > Mahomes (most likely)
Priest > anyone on our roster
2003 OL >>> 2018 OL
Tony G > Kelce
2003 WR < 2018 WR

Defense:
2003 = giant pile of shit
2018 = Houston and Berry at least are worth something

[Baby Lee]

All defenses eventually suck ass in the playoffs.

Look at the Super Bowl. Look at the Vikings. The mighty Jaguars gave up a fuckton of points to the Steelers.

Greatest Show on Turf won a home playoff game 12-10. They got a SB out of that.

Sometimes you find yourself in a dogfight 'all of a sudden.'

[O.city]

I will say though, I'm not the biggest Sutton fan, but I do think he had his hands tied last year with what he could do.

Wouldn't have been upset replacing him, but I do also feel with better talent he's not bad.

[petegz28]

But when facing a good offense, the defense got lucky to hold them to 18 points.

Going into that game, what were you thinking would have been a good outing for the D?

In that game...largely. As was stated... the Steelers did more to hurt themselves than we did to stop them.

[Baby Lee]

Top 5 by what metric?

fourth in the NFL in points allowed per game (15.1),
first in run defense (74.3 yards per game)
tied for the league lead with 57 sacks.
sixth in takeaways with 36
scored eight defensive touchdowns.

[Sassy Squatch]

Ah, I'd almost forgotten why I hate Bob Sutton with such a passion until I read this thread.

[DaFace]

I mean, seriously, look at our 2003 defensive starters. There's no comparison between this year's D and this pile of shit.

https://i.imgur.com/08f5zid.png

:Lin:

[petegz28]

I mean, seriously, look at our 2003 defensive starters. There's no comparison between this year's D and this pile of shit.

https://i.imgur.com/08f5zid.png

:Lin:

Again, I am not so much worried about the players as I am the guy calling the defensive plays.

[O.city]

fourth in the NFL in points allowed per game (15.1),
first in run defense (74.3 yards per game)
tied for the league lead with 57 sacks.
sixth in takeaways with 36
scored eight defensive touchdowns.

Well, first off, do the takeaways and defensive touchdowns count? Seems in this thread, for the Chiefs they don't and are just luck :D

But they were def a good defense. Lets look at the Chiefs in 14,15, 16 to compare though. This may take me some time.

[petegz28]

Well, first off, do the takeaways and defensive touchdowns count? Seems in this thread, for the Chiefs they don't and are just luck :D

But they were def a good defense. Lets look at the Chiefs in 14,15, 16 to compare though. This may take me some time.

You asked top 5 by what metric and he showed you. No need to start trying to move the goalposts around. The fact is, the Rams D was top 5, the Chiefs D was nothing close.

[O.city]

Well, first off, do the takeaways and defensive touchdowns count? Seems in this thread, for the Chiefs they don't and are just luck :D

But they were def a good defense. Lets look at the Chiefs in 14,15, 16 to compare though. This may take me some time.

2014
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/opp.htm

2015
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2015/opp.htm

2016
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/opp.htm

[Eleazar]

Actually, it kind of does. Against great teams, unless you have a great defense, it's tough to consistently get stops without turnovers.

Great teams don't cough the ball up all the time. Great teams are going to be able to stop your pass rush. You need a defense that is fundamentally good, i.e. not near the bottom of the league in every yardage stat, if you are going to beat great teams that don't turn the ball over.

[O.city]

You asked top 5 by what metric and he showed you. No need to start trying to move the goalposts around. The fact is, the Rams D was top 5, the Chiefs D was nothing close.

I'm not moving any goalposts.

The Chiefs D in 2015 were a top 5 defense in points allowed per game. Top 7 in 16.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

I'm more worried about Sutton more than the players.

I wouldn't be. They've already alluded to that they think it's the players fault from last year and not Suttons. Which is why they completely overhauled the defense.

If the Chiefs finish at or near the bottom of the league again like last year, I'll bet money on it that Sutton is sent packing, as there will be no more excuses for him . . . .

[O.city]

Great teams don't cough the ball up all the time. Great teams are going to be able to stop your pass rush. You need a defense that is fundamentally good, i.e. not near the bottom of the league in every yardage stat, if you are going to beat great teams that don't turn the ball over.

Great defenses force turnovers though.

[petegz28]

I wouldn't be. They've already alluded to that they think it's the players fault from last year and not Suttons. Which is why they completely overhauled the defense.

If the Chiefs finish at or near the bottom of the league again like last year, I'll bet money on it that Sutton is sent packing, as there will be no more excuses for him . . . .

We're going to see.....

[O.city]

We're going to see.....

Yeah, I definitely agree it's a make or break year for him.

[petegz28]

Great defenses force turnovers though.

And stop the run and stop the pass......and don't blow huge leads in 1 half of football....

[Strongside]

If this offense performs on the Vermeil level and we have even a halfway competent defense, we will destroy people.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I think our defense is MUCH improved this year. I'm expecting we are in the beginning of a dynasty.

I like Veach,Reid,Bienemy and when Sutton has healthy players he'll get her done.Last year Ford was hurt, Houston was 70% and covering , Hali was old , DJ was old and Peters was a non tackling cancer. Thats ALL GONE!

[O.city]

And stop the run and stop the pass......and don't blow huge leads in 1 half of football....

Yes, for sure.

The years that the Chiefs have had good defenses under Sutton, they've done the first and not the second though.

[petegz28]

I think our defense is MUCH improved this year. I'm expecting we are in the beginning of a dynasty.

I like Veach,Reid,Bienemy and when Sutton has healthy players he'll get her done.Last year Ford was hurt, Houston was 70% and covering , Hali was old , DJ was old and Peters was a non tackling cancer. Thats ALL GONE!

I agree we were gimped from a roster perspective last year. I am looking back over the course of Sutton's reign here and I see a lot of the same shit every year. Playing soft on the WR's. Huge gaps over the middle. Not blitzing in 3rd & long and unfortunately, not making enough key stops when you need them.

I will go back to the first game against Denver at KC. We are up by 7 against Manning. Denver has 0 TO's and 1:47 to go with the ball on their 20. First play he hits a guy wide open over the middle for 20+ yards.

We all know how it ended. And he had a compliment of good and healthy players that game. It was Monday night, at home and you're ahead by 7. You get 1 stop. 1 stop and you win. We lost.

[O.city]

I agree we were gimped from a roster perspective last year. I am looking back over the course of Sutton's reign here and I see a lot of the same shit every year. Playing soft on the WR's. Huge gaps over the middle. Not blitzing in 3rd & long and unfortunately, not making enough key stops when you need them.

I will go back to the first game against Denver at KC. We are up by 7 against Manning. Denver has 0 TO's and 1:47 to go with the ball on their 20. First play he hits a guy wide open over the middle for 20+ yards.

We all know how it ended. And he had a compliment of good and healthy players that game. It was Monday night, at home and you're ahead by 7. You get 1 stop. 1 stop and you win. We lost.

Was that the Charles fumble game?

[petegz28]

Was that the Charles fumble game?

Yes, a good defense forced a fumble. But I hardly blame JC. You are facing a high powered offense and a high powered defense. You are up by 7 with under 2 min to go. You got 79 yards of free space. You just have to keep them out of the end zone and we didn't.

That's just a bit of a recurring theme I don't care for from Sutton. We saw it against Indy and Tennessee. And to an extent the Steelers. Not getting the stop when you need to stop.

I mean think about how many close games we won because Peters ripped a ball out or Berry picked off a 2pt conversion and ran it back? thre's been a lot of close games we've lost because the defense couldn't lock it down for a drive. and I blame it more on play calling than anything.

[O.city]

Yes, a good defense forced a fumble. But I hardly blame JC. You are facing a high powered offense and a high powered defense. You are up by 7 with under 2 min to go. You got 79 yards of free space. You just have to keep them out of the end zone and we didn't.

That's just a bit of a recurring theme I don't care for from Sutton. We saw it against Indy and Tennessee. And to an extent the Steelers. Not getting the stop when you need to stop.

I mean think about how many close games we won because Peters ripped a ball out or Berry picked off a 2pt conversion and ran it back? thre's been a lot of close games we've lost because the defense couldn't lock it down for a drive. and I blame it more on play calling than anything.

Didn't that good defense just give up a go ahead drive under 2 minutes?

[petegz28]

Didn't that good defense just give up a go ahead drive under 2 minutes?

That has nothing do with our defense, now does it? Yes they did. Which is why it was even more important that our defense capitalize. You can what if this shit all you want. The bottom line is OUR defense needed to make 1 stop in 80 yards and didn't.

[chiefzilla1501]

Will go one of two ways. Defenses will play possession ball to throw our timing off. Or will go aerial and try to match us point by point. Pass heavy would be great because dime actually works to our advantage and Sutton can be opportunistic. Peters would have been an int machine. I hope our other guys can pick up the slack. I wouldn't mind seeing us gamble a lot more on D.

[Best22]

I agree we were gimped from a roster perspective last year. I am looking back over the course of Sutton's reign here and I see a lot of the same shit every year. Playing soft on the WR's. Huge gaps over the middle. Not blitzing in 3rd & long and unfortunately, not making enough key stops when you need them.

I will go back to the first game against Denver at KC. We are up by 7 against Manning. Denver has 0 TO's and 1:47 to go with the ball on their 20. First play he hits a guy wide open over the middle for 20+ yards.

We all know how it ended. And he had a compliment of good and healthy players that game. It was Monday night, at home and you're ahead by 7. You get 1 stop. 1 stop and you win. We lost.

Sean Smith was missing from the Denver game because he was serving a theee game suspension

Manning abused his backup, Jamell Fleming

[petegz28]

Sean Smith was missing from the Denver game because he was serving a theee game suspension

Manning abused his backup, Jamell Fleming

1 player. Can't claim 1 player cause that shit happens every year. He was suspended. Sutton knew it. And I remember him getting burned on the TD and IIRC, he had no help. I could be wrong.

Again though, 1 player, 4 players, no players, Sutton has a tendency to go Andy Reid when we have a lead. I can't think of many games our defense has put their foot on the throat of other teams.

[Halfcan]

The Chiefs D will be the best in the AFC West this year and top 10 in the NFL.

Mark it down.

[Shoes]

I agree we were gimped from a roster perspective last year. I am looking back over the course of Sutton's reign here and I see a lot of the same shit every year. Playing soft on the WR's. Huge gaps over the middle. Not blitzing in 3rd & long and unfortunately, not making enough key stops when you need them.

I will go back to the first game against Denver at KC. We are up by 7 against Manning. Denver has 0 TO's and 1:47 to go with the ball on their 20. First play he hits a guy wide open over the middle for 20+ yards.

We all know how it ended. And he had a compliment of good and healthy players that game. It was Monday night, at home and you're ahead by 7. You get 1 stop. 1 stop and you win. We lost.

This Sutton narrative on CP is so rich... let's take a look at "Sutton's reign":

2013: 19.1 points against/game good for 6th in the league
2014: 17.6 points against/game good for 2nd in the league
2015: 17.9 points against/game good for 3rd in the league
2016: 19.4 points against/game good for 7th in the league
2017: 21.2 points against/game good for 15th in the league

By your own words you just stated that the Chiefs last season were gimped by their roster, yet somehow the Chiefs still managed to have an average defense. Last year was the first year a Sutton defense allowed an average of more than 20 points a game. Last season I think was the first time you could say since Andy Reid took over that the offense was the strength of this team and not the defense.

[Best22]

1 player. Can't claim 1 player cause that shit happens every year. He was suspended. Sutton knew it. And I remember him getting burned on the TD and IIRC, he had no help. I could be wrong.

Again though, 1 player, 4 players, no players, Sutton has a tendency to go Andy Reid when we have a lead. I can't think of many games our defense has put their foot on the throat of other teams.

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

[petegz28]

The Chiefs D will be the best in the AFC West this year and top 10 in the NFL.

Mark it down.

I hope you're right....

[Titty Meat]

Pete Thread

[RealSNR]

Again, I am not so much worried about the players as I am the guy calling the defensive plays.

Bob Sutton isn't the best coordinator, but he's not an incompetent fucktard, either.

[petegz28]

Bob Sutton isn't the best coordinator, but he's not an incompetent ****tard, either.

He surely has his moments.....there is absolutely no way at all, none, no fucking way that you can ever justify a player like Justin Houston covering a player like Antonio Brown unless Brown is in the wildcat or something. Especially 50 fucking yards down field.

[Randallflagg]

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?


Sorry, But I don't agree. This Defense hasn't been "good" since the days of Marty. It has been "passable" at best and a "joke" at worst.

The main theme from one season to another? Sutton. I put Sutton in the same category as Dave Adolph. Little more than a waste of time.

[O.city]

Sorry, But I don't agree. This Defense hasn't been "good" since the days of Marty. It has been "passable" at best and a "joke" at worst.

The main theme from one season to another? Sutton. I put Sutton in the same category as Dave Adolph. Little more than a waste of time.

Well, the stats again, say otherwise a bit.

If the 90's defense is what we're shooting for, well, I guess good luck.

[petegz28]

Sorry, But I don't agree. This Defense hasn't been "good" since the days of Marty. It has been "passable" at best and a "joke" at worst.

The main theme from one season to another? Sutton. I put Sutton in the same category as Dave Adolph. Little more than a waste of time.

Sutton does remind me a lot of Adolph and GRob to the point that he seems to try to scheme and "out-think" the other team too often when really you just need to line up and punch fuckers in the mouth. In his defense, I think Reid does the same damn thing.

[Gary]

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

Too bad about the Ragland injury. I thought Hitchens and Ragland would have made a big difference right from the get go this year.

[Randallflagg]

Well, the stats again, say otherwise a bit.

If the 90's defense is what we're shooting for, well, I guess good luck.


Defense is a world different from Offense. Or, as someone once stated - "The best Defense is a strong Offense". In other words, you can't sit back and WAIT for something to happen. If the Defense isn't dictating what the Offense can and can't do - then you spend the entire game REACTING. Has nothing to do with the 90s.

Look at ANY successful Defense at ANY level of Football. Attack, Attack and then Attack. Let your backs do THEIR jobs. Let your LBs do THEIR jobs. Let the D Line do THEIR jobs. Don't have your LBs dropping 30 yards into coverage. A decent QB will eat you alive all day - as shown by our past.

You can raise all the hell you want about Marty - or even Cunningham, and it is probably justified - but one damned thing that no one can take from either of them, they were respected all over the NFL with their Defense. Teams HATED coming here to play the Chiefs. Now? It's just another day at the office.

Football is a game. It doesn't change with the decades. It is just "re-invented" to LOOK different. Hell, you "might" fool a team one week - but you won't get away with it for an entire season. Bottom line? It is still played between the hash marks, in the mud, and in the rain and snow.

[Best22]

Too bad about the Ragland injury. I thought Hitchens and Ragland would have made a big difference right from the get go this year.

Let's see our week 1 preseason roster before we get too worried

[Best22]

Defense is a world different from Offense. Or, as someone once stated - "The best Defense is a strong Offense". In other words, you can't sit back and WAIT for something to happen. If the Defense isn't dictating what the Offense can and can't do - then you spend the entire game REACTING. Has nothing to do with the 90s.

Look at ANY successful Defense at ANY level of Football. Attack, Attack and then Attack. Let your backs do THEIR jobs. Let your LBs do THEIR jobs. Let the D Line do THEIR jobs. Don't have your LBs dropping 30 yards into coverage. A decent QB will eat you alive all day - as shown by our past.

You can raise all the hell you want about Marty - or even Cunningham, and it is probably justified - but one damned thing that no one can take from either of them, they were respected all over the NFL with their Defense. Teams HATED coming here to play the Chiefs. Now? It's just another day at the office.

Football is a game. It doesn't change with the decades. It is just "re-invented" to LOOK different. Hell, you "might" fool a team one week - but you won't get away with it for an entire season. Bottom line? It is still played between the hash marks, in the mud, and in the rain and snow.

Yep. Getting pushed around by Steelers and Titans was pathetic. But fans say "oh, only 18 points allowed."

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

^this^

[Chris Meck]

Sutton does remind me a lot of Adolph and GRob to the point that he seems to try to scheme and "out-think" the other team too often when really you just need to line up and punch ****ers in the mouth. In his defense, I think Reid does the same damn thing.

I think that was out of necessity. It seems to me that what Veach has said rather loudly in this offseason is that we needed to get younger, faster, and more aggressive.

[BossChief]

Would start on most good defenses

Berry
Hitchens
Jones
Houston
Fuller

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Looking to prove they can reach potential

Kpassagnon
Speaks
Nnadi
Amerson
Williams
Watts

Our second team defense is better than the 2003 starting defense.

I can’t believe this comparison is even being made.

Warfield
Bartee
Mccleon
Browning
Sims
Bell
Hicks
Holliday
Maslowski
Woods
Wesley
Fujita

Fujita and Woods were the only guys on that defense that were even solid.

[beach tribe]

Sutton D is good at keeping the other team out of the end zone when it is firing on all cylinders, but it is ridiculously flawed in getting the most potential out of the players on the field. I read a fantastic article on the athletic about Justin Houston, his performance, and how he was utilized and it just disgusted me. Houston is absolutely Elite and Sutton is the only thing holding him back from being an absolute terror.
All that said, with the offenses potential, keeping the other team out of the end zone may be the only thing that's needed to dominate the f****** League

[loochy]

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Sorensen - no. He's a backup.
Ford - no. He belongs in the "prove his potenital" group.
Bailey - maybe. He WAS a solid player. Last year he was....not much. He looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane.

[keg in kc]

There is much, much more talent on this defense, and while Sutton should've been fired, Greg Robinson was worse.

[MahiMike]

They need to get back to an emphasis on turnover creation. Remember the 90's?

[JakeF]

As mediocre as Sutton is at times, he's still better than Robinson. Reid is also a better all-around Head Coach than Vermeil was.

[loochy]

They need to get back to an emphasis on turnover creation. Remember the 90's?

Yeah! Remember all those playoff wins?
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[ptlyon]

Yeah! Remember all those playoff wins?
Posted via Mobile Device

We just didn't generate enough turnovers in those games.

Or field goals.

[Lzen]

This Sutton narrative on CP is so rich... let's take a look at "Sutton's reign":

2013: 19.1 points against/game good for 6th in the league
2014: 17.6 points against/game good for 2nd in the league
2015: 17.9 points against/game good for 3rd in the league
2016: 19.4 points against/game good for 7th in the league
2017: 21.2 points against/game good for 15th in the league

By your own words you just stated that the Chiefs last season were gimped by their roster, yet somehow the Chiefs still managed to have an average defense. Last year was the first year a Sutton defense allowed an average of more than 20 points a game. Last season I think was the first time you could say since Andy Reid took over that the offense was the strength of this team and not the defense.

While points allowed is a key stat, it is not everything. Time of possession and yardage are still important factors. I'd be curious to see those rankings for all of the seasons Sutton has been here. 2016 was a good defense as far as getting turnovers, but what happens in a game when your defense isn't getting turnovers? Sure, they held the Steelers to 18 points, but the Steelers held the ball for quite a bit of time during that game and didn't allow our offense to get into much of a rhythm. And don't get me wrong, I still mostly blame Alex Smith for that shit show.

[Lzen]

And while Sutton may not be anything great, he is not bad. And nowhere near as bad as Greg what's his name. Not to mention the talent is much greater on this team than Vermeil's defenses. You'd have to be a moron to believe this defense will be as bad as that 2002 Chiefs team. Personally, I think this defense is going to surprise people and be better than expected, ranking 15-20 in yardage.

[Lzen]

Would start on most good defenses

Berry
Hitchens
Jones
Houston
Fuller

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Looking to prove they can reach potential

Kpassagnon
Speaks
Nnadi
Amerson
Williams
Watts

Our second team defense is better than the 2003 starting defense.

I can’t believe this comparison is even being made.

Warfield
Bartee
Mccleon
Browning
Sims
Bell
Hicks
Holliday
Maslowski
Woods
Wesley
Fujita

Fujita and Woods were the only guys on that defense that were even solid.

I seem to remember Wesley being decent. Fujita was okay but I don't remember him doing a whole helluva lot while with the Chiefs. I think he went on to have mild success elsewhere (Saints/Cowboys?). Sims was a huge bust. And that had to be the worst trio of CBs of all time.

[Chris Meck]

Sutton was a part of the Rex Ryan defensive philosophy, no? That ain't bend-but-don't-break.
I would think that we had some talent deficiencies here that prevented anything else AS WELL AS a low scoring offense for several of the seasons. So you can't take chances really, because the offense can't respond. So, you end up playing conservatively on both sides.

Not saying that's the whole story, but played a part. Last year, injuries and age just tanked the talent level and we got exposed.

I'm not sure how much more you can revamp the starting 11 in one offseason than we have. I bet it's a lot better.

[RealSNR]

While points allowed is a key stat, it is not everything. Time of possession and yardage are still important factors. I'd be curious to see those rankings for all of the seasons Sutton has been here. 2016 was a good defense as far as getting turnovers, but what happens in a game when your defense isn't getting turnovers? Sure, they held the Steelers to 18 points, but the Steelers held the ball for quite a bit of time during that game and didn't allow our offense to get into much of a rhythm. And don't get me wrong, I still mostly blame Alex Smith for that shit show.

Time of possession had largely been in the Chiefs' favor probably up until this season.

As for yardage, this defense has never really done a good job limiting yards. I think Reid and Sutton viewed it as a tradeoff between yardage and points allowed the past couple of years given some of the JAGs we've had to start throughout the unit, particularly in the secondary.

I think you can criticize it as being overly cautious, particularly when we got into the playoffs, but it's very possible that Sutton was actually maximizing the defense's contributions to winning games given some of the holes in the roster they had to endure.

I thought Sutton should have been fired, but I'm not irate that he was kept aboard, and for the moment I'm going to be pretty patient to see how they change things up and improve.

If RBs and WRs are still racking up career days against us, and if Sutton is continuing to hold players like Houston back from being aggressive, then I'll re-join the angry townspeople with torches and pitchforks.

[Coochie liquor]

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.

Sutton's defenses over the last few years have taken on a pattern of playing soft. I am just a bit concerned that in all the defensive issues, the coach of the defense is not being looked at as part of the problem.

We cannot continue playing a 3 man rush, playing CB's 10 yards off on 3rd and medium, consistently giving up 3rd and long and then claiming victory because after a 7 minute drive we held the other team to a FG.

That hasn't really worked well.

A big difference is we’re going to have a qb who keeps his eyes down field, and isn’t afraid to pull the trigger on a big play instead of running into a sack. Mahomes is surely gonna crush our hopes and dreams sometimes with a interception, and likely at a bad time in the playoffs. But he’s capable of the other side of that coin too. He will likely win us some games with his arm, and playmaking abilities. I’m both playoff games you mentioned, we sputtered badly in the second half on offense. In either of those games a single score would have won it for us. But our old qb couldn’t handle that pressure with the game on the line. When we got into those situations be it regular season or post season, I never had faith that Alex would lead us back once the lead was gone. You could just see it in his mannerisms. Impossible to say if Mahomes can overcome what Alex couldn’t, but at this point we only have hope that he can.

[farmerchief]

Time of possession had largely been in the Chiefs' favor probably up until this season.

As for yardage, this defense has never really done a good job limiting yards. I think Reid and Sutton viewed it as a tradeoff between yardage and points allowed the past couple of years given some of the JAGs we've had to start throughout the unit, particularly in the secondary.

I think you can criticize it as being overly cautious, particularly when we got into the playoffs, but it's very possible that Sutton was actually maximizing the defense's contributions to winning games given some of the holes in the roster they had to endure.

I thought Sutton should have been fired, but I'm not irate that he was kept aboard, and for the moment I'm going to be pretty patient to see how they change things up and improve.

If RBs and WRs are still racking up career days against us, and if Sutton is continuing to hold players like Houston back from being aggressive, then I'll re-join the angry townspeople with torches and pitchforks. Ditto👍

[Skyy God]

#PeteThings

[petegz28]

Defense still looks soft and doing the same shit. No push, playing way off of WR's. I know it's just pre-season game #1 but some things just need to be evident all the time. Things like push at the line are something we need to see all the time from our 1's & 2's

[Chiefshrink]

Vermeil 2.0 ? Didn't we have a HOF o-line ? How does our current o-line compare to Vermeil 1.0:D

[petegz28]

Vermeil 2.0 ? Didn't we have a HOF o-line ? How does our current o-line compare to Vermeil 1.0:D

I think you're taking that a bit too literally. The point is we are going to be all offense, no defense.

[Chiefshrink]

we are going to be all offense,

Too literally ? Roaf,Shields and Waters ? All offense ? Nothing personal here but you did see our o-line tonight, correct? How do they compare with Vermeil 1.0 ? Mahomes will be lucky to make it through the season. Texans didn't even have Watt.:rolleyes:

[GloryDayz]

We're soooooo fucking there. Sutton is a fucking moron. That's why Andy loves him.

Sent from my 9+ using Tapatalk

[kcpasco]

No because the offense will just be slightly less terrible than the defense.

[GloryDayz]

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?Sutton's, "bend before you break", and, "stay bent" systems both suck. He's just stuck with players who bend in a lite breeze.

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[kcpasco]

Why do you guys think this offense will be great? Did you watch the o line.

[Rasputin]

This o line is a major concern especially on the left side with Fisher anchoring. He needs to bulk up do roids or something and get roidrage on the field.

[Nickhead]

This o line is a major concern especially on the left side with Fisher anchoring. He needs to bulk up do roids or something and get roidrage on the field.

unless harrison returns in the post season, fisher will have a great year :D

[rabblerouser]

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.


Both of those blown leads included a huge lead attained by aggressive offense in the first half, followed by the same offense going in a shell and not scoring points.

I blame Reid and Smith for both playoff losses more than I'd blame the defense - factor in Andrew Luck dribbling a fumble into the end zone on one game and Revis batting Mariota's duck back to him for a touchdown for the weirdness factor...THEN you've got stuff like DJs murder of Mariota called 'down by forward progress" (!) And somehow, that Colts defender was able to possess Alex Smith's 4th qtr fumble in the Colts playoff loss while literally laying on the ground, one butt check (along with half his body) being completely out of bounds...let's not even mention the (uncalled) mugging of DBowe on the final drive vs the Colts...

There's a LOT more to it than 'defense blew the leads in the playoffs'.

If Reid OR the refs call a better game, in EITHER game, we win

In a time where the rules are changed to favor the offense and reworded as to be able to be interpreted as opposed to absolute and enforceable, Reid/Smith and the refs deserve as much or more of the blame than the defense in BOTH of those losses.

Smith cost us the Pittsburgh game the year before last by missing wide open receivers in a game where points were at a premium.

We got beat at NE because Justin Houston was out so Sutton had to sit back and run Zone vs Brady, and Brady just picked us apart. And of course Reid/Smith couldn't keep up, points-wise.

It's a simpleton who goes "that defense sucks. Is this the Dick Vermeil era?"

Come on.

Bob Sutton is WAY better than Greg Robinson. :D

[Best22]

Both of those blown leads included a huge lead attained by aggressive offense in the first half, followed by the same offense going in a shell and not scoring points.

I blame Reid and Smith for both playoff losses more than I'd blame the defense - factor in Andrew Luck dribbling a fumble into the end zone on one game and Revis batting Mariota's duck back to him for a touchdown for the weirdness factor...THEN you've got stuff like DJs murder of Mariota called 'down by forward progress" (!) And somehow, that Colts defender was able to possess Alex Smith's 4th qtr fumble in the Colts playoff loss while literally laying on the ground, one butt check (along with half his body) being completely out of bounds...let's not even mention the (uncalled) mugging of DBowe on the final drive vs the Colts...

There's a LOT more to it than 'defense blew the leads in the playoffs'.

If Reid OR the refs call a better game, in EITHER game, we win

In a time where the rules are changed to favor the offense and reworded as to be able to be interpreted as opposed to absolute and enforceable, Reid/Smith and the refs deserve as much or more of the blame than the defense in BOTH of those losses.

Smith cost us the Pittsburgh game the year before last by missing wide open receivers in a game where points were at a premium.

We got beat at NE because Justin Houston was out so Sutton had to sit back and run Zone vs Brady, and Brady just picked us apart. And of course Reid/Smith couldn't keep up, points-wise.

It's a simpleton who goes "that defense sucks. Is this the Dick Vermeil era?"

Come on.

Bob Sutton is WAY better than Greg Robinson. :D

Anytime you score 44 points and lose, the defense gets 70% of the blame, atleast. The reason no one felt safe with a 38-10 lead is because the defense was trash. Remember the Oakland game? 35-10 lead glcut to 35-31. Alex Smith and Jamaal Charles baled is out in that one

[rabblerouser]

Sutton was a part of the Rex Ryan defensive philosophy, no? That ain't bend-but-don't-break.

ha.

Depends on the personnel, ya know?

When Ryan was in Buffalo, his defense was 'suck-but-don't-bend'.

[rabblerouser]

Anytime you score 44 points and lose, the defense gets 70% of the blame, atleast. The reason no one felt safe with a 38-10 lead is because the defense was trash. Remember the Oakland game? 35-10 lead glcut to 35-31. Alex Smith and Jamaal Charles baled is out in that one

What Oakland game? Where at and what year? There's two a year.

I remember the @Oakland game last year where the refs kept throwing flags for defensive penalties for untimed down after untimed down until the Oakland offense scored.

The rules favor the offense.

****, the Steelers scored 40-some in a playoff game, LOST, then fired their OFFENSIVE coordinator.

Should have scored 50.

It's 2018 in the NFL, the defenders aren't allowed to touch the QB or the WRs.

Score more points.

[GloryDayz]

This o line is a major concern especially on the left side with Fisher anchoring. He needs to bulk up do roids or something and get roidrage on the field.

He's not a gladiator (either)...

[TEX]

What Oakland game? Where at and what year? There's two a year.

I remember the @Oakland game last year where the refs kept throwing flags for defensive penalties for untimed down after untimed down until the Oakland offense scored.

The rules favor the offense.

****, the Steelers scored 40-some in a playoff game, LOST, then fired their OFFENSIVE coordinator.

Should have scored 50.

It's 2018 in the NFL, the defenders aren't allowed to touch the QB or the WRs.

Score more points.

2013 at Oakland I believe. When Charles taunted the Black Hole and scored like 5 TD's.

[rabblerouser]

2013 at Oakland I believe. When Charles taunted the Black Hole and scored like 5 TD's.

Oh yeah, that was classic.

[MahiMike]

Defense still looks soft and doing the same shit. No push, playing way off of WR's. I know it's just pre-season game #1 but some things just need to be evident all the time. Things like push at the line are something we need to see all the time from our 1's & 2's

This is what pisses me off the most about our defense. Playing 10 yards off every damn time. The offense just calls the same play every time. AND IT WORKS!

[petegz28]

This is what pisses me off the most about our defense. Playing 10 yards off every damn time. The offense just calls the same play every time. AND IT WORKS!

It wouldn't be so bad if the CB didn't drop yet another 10 when the ball is snapped. That makes come-back routes almost automatic. When the ball is snapped, the WR just has to run straight for about 5 yards and our CB will be 20 yards off an no one around the WR to stop an easy 8-9 yard throw.

[Molitoth]

It wouldn't be so bad if the CB didn't drop yet another 10 when the ball is snapped. That makes come-back routes almost automatic. When the ball is snapped, the WR just has to run straight for about 5 yards and our CB will be 20 yards off an no one around the WR to stop an easy 8-9 yard throw.

Our CB's have been doing this during Sutton's entire tenure.
It's lame and teams know how to beat it. We got lucky one year by leading the league in turnovers (Thanks Marcus Peters).

Sutton is still the biggest liability on this team.

[petegz28]

Bumping for the obvious...

We are looking at Vermeil 2.0

All offense, no defense

[Coach]

This o line is a major concern especially on the left side with Fisher anchoring. He needs to bulk up do roids or something and get roidrage on the field.

Run blocking could use some improvement all around, but pass protection have been pretty solid overall.

Even Erving appears to be playing decently. I haven't heard his name (that I recall) that he got flagged for holding or false start in the last two games, so that's usually a good sign.

[GloryDayz]

We are there... Right down to 2018 Greg Robinson.

[petegz28]

We are there... Right down to 2018 Greg Robinson.

Sure seems like it

[suzzer99]

Maybe the league will figure us out, but right now this offense is even more unstoppable than 2003/2004.

[MahiMike]

hmmm, I seem to recall someone else stating this fact prior to the start of the season...