Tony G...4th best “receiver” of all time?

[BossChief]

Rice
Moss
Owens

I know Tony was a TE, but he was mostly a receiver.

They are talking about it on Dan Patrick and he brought up Tony, his position and the QBs he had to play with.

Tony above Harrison, Hudson, Fitzgerald and CJ?

[Red Dawg]

He makes a case for it. TE he's one for sure. His stats are so much higher than all others it's crazy. His stats to other TE's is what Rice's are to other WR's.

[Halfcan]

Tony G is the best TE of all time and it is not even close. He could have played two or three more years, but decided not to risk his health. Tony could have been number 2 all time but chose not to take all those hits. He also played in some of the worst offenses and shitty QB's in Chiefs history. He was so dominating- refs refused to call holding against defenses against him.

[Simply Red]

pfft. it was Bobby Sippio

[Amnorix]

I agree Tony G is the best TE of all time. If you had to give me one TE for one game, and both are healthy, I'll take Gronk. But the longevity and health and consistency are huge factors in Tony G's favor.

[O.city]

Gronk will always have the Brady argument against him I think. If you look at what Tony did, with who was throwing him the ball etc.

[KChiefs1]

If he hadn’t played for the shitty Chiefs he would have been #1.

Cowherd was talking yesterday about how great Tony would have been.

https://youtu.be/Fg8CYtKBqUE

[Bewbies]

If Tony G played in a league with defense outlawed and Tom Brady throwing him the ball his numbers would have been absurd.

[lawrenceRaider]

If Tony G played in a league with defense outlawed and Tom Brady throwing him the ball his numbers would have been absurd.

Possibly Rice level stats, though can you imagine what Rice's numbers would look like today?

[Mile High Mania]

Gonzo was definitely a great player, one of the best all-time. Played a long time (17 seasons right? that's pretty stellar) and contrary to many of his peers, he had an insanely higher number of targets... mostly due to the talent around him. As many of said, KC used him as the #1 threat for the most part where as others played alongside 1-2 other top WRs, eating up targets. Hell, he has the 2nd most receptions all-time. Witten is 4th, with Gates being the next TE at 20th.

That's not said to take away from his greatness, as with any "best of all time" list, you have so many factors to consider.

[Mile High Mania]

Possibly Rice level stats, though can you imagine what Rice's numbers would look like today?

I'm not sure how much better they could be quite honestly, that style is why they play the way they do now. We could track someone like OBJ's last few years to those of JR and see.

[lawrenceRaider]

I'm not sure how much better they could be quite honestly, that style is why they play the way they do now. We could track someone like OBJ's last few years to those of JR and see.

Rice >>> OBJ

[Mile High Mania]

Rice >>> OBJ

Without question... I just don't believe Rice would have that greater of a stat sheet playing now than when he did. That bar was set so high, maybe nobody surpasses him.

[Buehler445]

Gonzo was definitely a great player, one of the best all-time. Played a long time (17 seasons right? that's pretty stellar) and contrary to many of his peers, he had an insanely higher number of targets... mostly due to the talent around him. As many of said, KC used him as the #1 threat for the most part where as others played alongside 1-2 other top WRs, eating up targets. Hell, he has the 2nd most receptions all-time. Witten is 4th, with Gates being the next TE at 20th.

That's not said to take away from his greatness, as with any "best of all time" list, you have so many factors to consider.


It's a two edge sword. He got a lot of targets but SO MANY of those were garbage balls.

Fuck, I'm pretty sure Hutard was throwing those passes with his eyes closed.

The thing that makes him even that much more great was he caught everything - and virtually none of it was easy.

[In58men]

AJ Green most underrated WR ever

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Gonzo was definitely a great player, one of the best all-time. Played a long time (17 seasons right? that's pretty stellar) and contrary to many of his peers, he had an insanely higher number of targets... mostly due to the talent around him. As many of said, KC used him as the #1 threat for the most part where as others played alongside 1-2 other top WRs, eating up targets. Hell, he has the 2nd most receptions all-time. Witten is 4th, with Gates being the next TE at 20th.

That's not said to take away from his greatness, as with any "best of all time" list, you have so many factors to consider.

PA alert...

[Tribal Warfare]

Good, Gronkowski can fuck off

[Tribal Warfare]

Don Hutson should be in the top 3

[Mile High Mania]

PA alert...

Give it a rest. That's the same perspective I've used with most of these 'greatest ever' conversations.

[luv]

Not sure why "receiver" is in quotes. TE's aren't usually handed the ball. They are typically thrown the ball, which makes them receivers. They're just not wide receivers.

[Mile High Mania]

It's a two edge sword. He got a lot of targets but SO MANY of those were garbage balls.

****, I'm pretty sure Hutard was throwing those passes with his eyes closed.

The thing that makes him even that much more great was he caught everything - and virtually none of it was easy.

Definitely, played with a mix of inconsistency at QB, with 2 teams and still produced for a long time.

[Mile High Mania]

Not sure why "receiver" is in quotes. TE's aren't usually handed the ball. They are typically thrown the ball, which makes them receivers. They're just not wide receivers.

Weird. Obviously, he's making a distinction between WR/TE.

[Rasputin]

Did they mention Rice admittedly to using performance enhancing drugs? Just a tad though ><

[scho63]

Fitzgerald is top 3 for me as is Megatron. Those two guys catch EVERYTHING.

Rice benefited by having some guys named Joe Montana and Steve Young throw him a lot of TD's but he was still great, if not the greatest.

Tony G was unbelievable once he got passed that first year+ of drops.

Randy Moss was damn good and Owens certainly there as top 5.

Lynn Swann was great in the day as was Chris Carter and Michael Irvin.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Don Hutson should be on the list as well.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Don Hutson should be in the top 3

:clap:

You know your football, sir.

[kgrund]

To me Tony was great in the red zone and a very dependable target. Where a lot of these guys separate themselves from him is in their big-play ability. How many TDs did Tony have over 50 yards? I watched his entire career and can only think of one.

[Bewbies]

I loved Rice, but I never watched a WR as talented as Moss. That dude came in and DOMINATED as a rookie.

Fitz will be a top 5 guy when it's all said and done, and Megatron is definitely under-rated as well.

It's interesting to see how current players get dinged later for defense being outlawed? I tend to put the Marino's, Montana's and Elway's above the Manning's and Brady's because being a QB was so much harder then than it is today....

How do you possibly compare a league where the QB can't get breathed on to one where you can murder the guy on every play? How do you compare an NFL where the WR's do not go over the middle for fear of their life vs one where midgets can do whatever they want cause the MLB's and S can't hit them?

It's like football's version of the steroid era.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

I loved Rice, but I never watched a WR as talented as Moss. That dude came in and DOMINATED as a rookie.

Fitz will be a top 5 guy when it's all said and done, and Megatron is definitely under-rated as well.

It's interesting to see how current players get dinged later for defense being outlawed? I tend to put the Marino's, Montana's and Elway's above the Manning's and Brady's because being a QB was so much harder then than it is today....

How do you possibly compare a league where the QB can't get breathed on to one where you can murder the guy on every play? How do you compare an NFL where the WR's do not go over the middle for fear of their life vs one where midgets can do whatever they want cause the MLB's and S can't hit them?

It's like football's version of the steroid era.

Good take.

In my opinion, Benny Friedman might be one of the greatest QBs in history.

[BossChief]

Don Hutson should be in the top 3

He had a year where he had 1200+ rec yards and the 2nd place guy (in the whole league) had 250.

Crazy.

[Red Dawg]

What the hell is that?

[DanT]

Here's a rather simple look at the all-time (as of today) top 25 receivers (by yards) in the NFL. Among these players, I ranked them on three statistics, yards per reception, touchdowns, and fantasy points. I then took the average ranking and used that to order the list from top to bottom. I extracted the data from football-reference.com. Among these receivers, only Tony G. and Jason Witten are tight ends and they have, of course, lower yards per reception than the other receivers. So, the algorithm I'm using is not "fair" to tight ends. On the other hand, when I think about what I want from a receiver, I want big production from the receiver in terms of yards per attempt (which isn't readily available from football-reference.com, but yards per reception is) and in terms of points. So that's why I choose the 3 statistics I did. It seems that there are a couple of names on my simple list that come up ahead of Tony G and that match my own expectations of what I would want. I don't think of Tony G as the 4th-best receiver of all time. I think of him as one of the best tight ends of all-time, who was also one of the best 20 receivers ever.

rank name yards y/r td fantasy rank_y rank_yr rank_td rank_f avg_rank
1 jerry rice "22,895" 14.8 197 3581.8 1 8 1 1 3.3
1 randy moss "15,292" 15.6 156 2484.4 4 5 2 3 3.3
3 terrell owens "15,934" 14.8 153 2549.5 2 8 3 2 4.3
4 steve largent "13,089" 16.0 100 1909.3 18 4 8 12 8.0
5 isaac bruce "15,208" 14.9 91 2071.9 5 7 10 9 8.7
6 marvin harrison "14,580" 13.2 128 2226.8 9 18 5 4 9.0
7 tim brown "14,934" 13.7 100 2087.4 7 14 8 8 10.0
8 cris carter "13,899" 12.6 130 2167 13 21 4 7 10.7
9 l. fitzgerald "15,545" 12.6 110 2209.1 3 21 7 5 11.0
10 james lofton "14,004" 18.3 75 1866.7 12 1 18 15 11.3
11 tony gonzalez "15,127" 11.4 111 2183.7 6 24 6 6 12.0
11 irving fryar "12,785" 15.0 84 1794.7 19 6 13 17 12.0
13 andre reed "13,198" 13.9 87 1874.1 17 13 11 14 12.7
13 steve smith "14,731" 14.3 81 1982.8 8 11 17 10 12.7
15 reggie wayne "14,345" 13.4 82 1918.5 10 16 14 11 13.7
16 anquan boldin "13,779" 12.8 82 1880.6 14 19 14 13 15.3
16 henry ellard "13,777" 16.9 65 1745.7 15 2 24 20 15.3
18 torry holt "13,382" 14.5 74 1769.9 16 10 19 18 15.7
19 andre johnson "14,185" 13.4 70 1834.9 11 16 20 16 17.3
19 charlie joiner "12,146" 16.2 65 1585.8 24 3 24 25 17.3
21 hines ward "12,083" 12.1 85 1765.8 25 23 12 19 18.0
22 b. marshall "12,215" 12.7 82 1712.3 23 20 14 21 18.3
23 art monk "12,721" 13.5 68 1702.1 20 15 21 22 19.3
23 jimmy smith "12,287" 14.3 67 1622.6 22 11 23 24 19.3
25 jason witten "12,448" 10.8 68 1647.5 21 25 21 23 23.0

[Red Dawg]

Older guys were tougher. A lot tougher from the QB on down. Hits were really all legal on everyone. Today players are just better though. Faster, stronger by miles and better trained.

[Garcia Bronco]

Tony G is the best TE of all time and it is not even close. He could have played two or three more years, but decided not to risk his health. Tony could have been number 2 all time but chose not to take all those hits. He also played in some of the worst offenses and shitty QB's in Chiefs history. He was so dominating- refs refused to call holding against defenses against him.

Totally true except for Shannon Sharpe, Kellen Winslow, Ozzie Newsome.

[DanT]

Totally true except for Shannon Sharpe, Kellen Winslow, Ozzie Newsome.

Here's how the 5 tight ends mentioned either here or in my post would rank on the algorithm I described earlier. Notably, all three of the tight ends that Garcia Bronco mentioned had better yards per reception than Tony G. Tony G. has impressive numbers in the "accumulation" stats, the ones that reflect overall production over the course of a career.
rank name yards y/r td fantasy rank_y rank_yr rank_td rank_f avg_rank
1.0 tony gonzalez 15127.0 11.4 111.0 2183.7 1.0 4.0 1.0 1.0 2.0
2.0 shannon sharpe 10060.0 12.3 62.0 1376.9 3.0 2.0 3.0 3.0 2.7
3.0 jason witten 12448.0 10.8 68.0 1647.5 2.0 5.0 2.0 2.0 3.0
4.0 kellen winslow 6741.0 12.5 45.0 933.1 5.0 1.0 5.0 5.0 3.7
5.0 ozzie newsome 7980.0 12.1 47.0 1102.5 4.0 3.0 4.0 4.0 3.7

Antonio Gates currently has 11,508 yards, 12.4 yards per reception, 114 TDs and 1828 fantasy points, so he would be tied with Tony G. at the top of this table. I do not feel that Tony G is clearly the best receiver tight end of all time, given the production of Gates and Sharpe. Sharpe also won Super Bowls, with the Broncos (twice) and Ravens (once). A case could be made for Tony G, but it would not be indisputable.

[Garcia Bronco]

Here's how the 5 tight ends mentioned either here or in my post would rank on the algorithm I described earlier. Notably, all three of the tight ends that Garcia Bronco mentioned had better yards per reception than Tony G. Tony G. has impressive numbers in the "accumulation" stats, the ones that reflect overall production over the course of a career.
rank name yards y/r td fantasy rank_y rank_yr rank_td rank_f avg_rank
1.0 tony gonzalez 15127.0 11.4 111.0 2183.7 1.0 4.0 1.0 1.0 2.0
2.0 shannon sharpe 10060.0 12.3 62.0 1376.9 3.0 2.0 3.0 3.0 2.7
3.0 jason witten 12448.0 10.8 68.0 1647.5 2.0 5.0 2.0 2.0 3.0
4.0 kellen winslow 6741.0 12.5 45.0 933.1 5.0 1.0 5.0 5.0 3.7
5.0 ozzie newsome 7980.0 12.1 47.0 1102.5 4.0 3.0 4.0 4.0 3.7

cool man let me know if any of those yards amounted to any playoff wins that mattered for the Chiefs.

[Why Not?]

Greatest or top whatever lists are so difficult because of the different era thing. Unless someone was just so ridiculously statistically out in front of everyone else(Rice, Gretzky)it's impossible for me to fairly judge.

[DanT]

cool man let me know if any of those yards amounted to any playoff wins that mattered for the Chiefs.

I absolutely agree with the thought behind your post. Sharpe is a champion and his team came into Arrowhead and beat my Chiefs in that crucial AFC Divisional. Great players do great things. Accumulation is only one aspect of greatness. Sharpe has rings, Tony G. does not.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Greatest or top whatever lists are so difficult because of the different era thing. Unless someone was just so ridiculously statistically out in front of everyone else(Rice, Gretzky)it's impossible for me to fairly judge.

Exactly. Numbers are inflated compared to previous eras. Plus, offenses have numerous rule advantages.

I saw a formula where if you took Tom Harmon's stats and added multipers to account for the increased number of plays per game and extra number of games played by current collegiate teams, his stats blew the record holder out of the water. But at first glance, they are pedestrian.

[Demonpenz]

Grbac and Huard had radar lock on Tony G. Tony G had a knack for avoiding the big hit and always seemed to be dragging defenders.

[WhiteWhale]

One thing about Tony that drove me nuts is often after he'd catch a pass he'd stop, turn, and do this stupid little wiggle.

It's not like he ever juked someone with it. Just truck 'em Tony. Good lord it was annoying. Dude could have tacked hundreds of more yards onto his total.

It's crazy to nitpick, but yeah. Tony could have been even better if he was better after the catch. His routes were WR level as were his hands.