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Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:31 PM
That's it.
You got major upgrades in the front seven. The corners were not the problem today. Guys running free underneath all ****ing day. NO PASS RUSH, rushing two and three guys and Steeler receivers STILL RUNNING FREE UNDERNEATH. Everytime we blitzed, we rushed the throw. Everytime we didn't, Roethlisberger had all ****ing day. No excuse to rush two and three against a HOF QB.

You got younger, and faster. It's not all on the players. It's the scheme. It leaves the defense on the field until they're gassed and give up the big play.

If the scheme is too complicated for your secondary to run, then CHANGE THE SCHEME.

You have an offense that can score at will. Play aggressive and make them match you big play for big play. blitz, pressure, force them to make a big play or a mistake. Sitting back in loose zones all day is NOT WORKING.

**** Sutton.

TLO
09-16-2018, 02:31 PM
DOESN'T MATTER, PATRICK MAHOMES

smithandrew051
09-16-2018, 02:32 PM
Why not just bring 4+ almost constantly? Would we somehow get torched worse?

BryanBusby
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
yes

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
What a great game called by Sutton, mixing blitzes and coverages.

AB was throwing a fit...

Our D git held all game long and STILL pulled it out.

The refs wouldn't call holding on Shitsburgh, even on that last TD drive when the Steelers held on every play...

Fuck yes, Bob Sutton.

Prison Bitch
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
He's got a 50M pass rusher who can't rush the paaser

-King-
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Major upgrades in the front 7? Other than Hitchens...who's an upgrade? And how are the corners not a problem? They're literally the biggest problem on the team.
Posted via Mobile Device

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Why not just bring 4+ almost constantly? Would we somehow get torched worse?

OMG I KNOW. WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK

petegz28
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Why not just bring 4+ almost constantly? Would we somehow get torched worse?

Exactly...you're leaving gaping hols and tons of time for the QB with a 3 man rush...so why not just blitz and take a chance?

Rasputin
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Maybe if we had better talent we would get turnovers like we did with Berry and Peters that's what this defense thrived on last five years going to the playoffs.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:33 PM
He's got a 50M pass rusher who can't rush the paaser

But really, he did get held all game long...

Clay has .gifs.

New World Order
09-16-2018, 02:34 PM
D played better second half.

TribalElder
09-16-2018, 02:34 PM
DOESN'T MATTER, PATRICK MAHOMES

ROFL

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:34 PM
DOESN'T MATTER, PATRICK MAHOMES

And also, this.

It's Mahomes, bitch.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:34 PM
What a great game called by Sutton, mixing blitzes and coverages.

AB was throwing a fit...

Our D git held all game long and STILL pulled it out.

The refs wouldn't call holding on Shitsburgh, even on that last TD drive when the Steelers held on every play...

**** yes, Bob Sutton.

They bracketed AB all game. That is good, and also a no-brainer. Everything else was bullshit.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:35 PM
Maybe if we had better talent we would get turnovers like we did with Berry and Peters that's what this defense thrived on last five years going to the playoffs.

YOU HAVE TO FORCE THE ISSUE.

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 02:35 PM
Hey, we've already played 2 of the best QBs we are going to be facing this season. We're currently weathering the worst of the storm.

T-post Tom
09-16-2018, 02:35 PM
Why not just bring 4+ almost constantly? Would we somehow get torched worse?

That's it.
You got major upgrades in the front seven. The corners were not the problem today. Guys running free underneath all ****ing day. NO PASS RUSH, rushing two and three guys and Steeler receivers STILL RUNNING FREE UNDERNEATH. Everytime we blitzed, we rushed the throw. Everytime we didn't, Roethlisberger had all ****ing day. No excuse to rush two and three against a HOF QB.

You got younger, and faster. It's not all on the players. It's the scheme. It leaves the defense on the field until they're gassed and give up the big play.

If the scheme is too complicated for your secondary to run, then CHANGE THE SCHEME.

You have an offense that can score at will. Play aggressive and make them match you big play for big play. blitz, pressure, force them to make a big play or a mistake. Sitting back in loose zones all day is NOT WORKING.

**** Sutton.

That performance and DeCastro, their best lineman didn't play. Sutton needs to go. Promote someone.

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_headshot_desktop/f_auto/chiefs/zmhflfs1aqcq6jbc71hd.jpg

Reerun_KC
09-16-2018, 02:36 PM
Funny after years of CP defending him, NOW it’s time to bash him? Irony.

chiefzilla1501
09-16-2018, 02:36 PM
I'd like to get rid of Sutton.

But fair question... I really wonder how much of the 2nd quarter collapse is him and how much is Reid. Is Reid asking Sutton to play a ton of Prevent when we get a big lead? Because it seems like a Reid thing to do.

tboss-27
09-16-2018, 02:36 PM
If we rush 3 on a 3rd and long one more time I'm going to lose my mind. Our secondary is marginal, at best. The fact this clown can't recognize that rushing 3 and giving them 5-7 seconds to throw the ball does not produce positive results is amazingly stupid. He's a liability. I believe this D has the ability to hold teams under 30, but not if he's going to be calling the plays. He's proved - over and over - that he thinks rushing 3-4 on most plays is the way to go. He's been proved wrong - over and over - when we do that we almost never have a positive play. Yet he keeps going to it over, and over, and over.

kysirsoze
09-16-2018, 02:36 PM
I can't imagine seeing the Chiefs win their second straight game to start the season behind the hottest QB in the league and RUNNING to CP to post this thread. Different strokes, I guess.

carcosa
09-16-2018, 02:37 PM
He's definitely bad but who cares right now? Enjoy the win!

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:37 PM
Major upgrades in the front 7? Other than Hitchens...who's an upgrade? And how are the corners not a problem? They're literally the biggest problem on the team.
Posted via Mobile Device

Not today, IMO. Fuller was great. Nelson was decent, and even Scandrick was decent-plays where Roethlisberger had 8 and 9 fucking seconds you can't really hang on your secondary.

What killed us was James and Juju in the intermediary flats all fucking game long. Murray looked like shit in particular; and what the hell is Hitchens and Smith doing covering a WR 30 yards downfield? It's stupid.

New World Order
09-16-2018, 02:40 PM
When they would send 5 or more on Ben we got some stops.

Can't watch that 3 man pass rush anymore.

frozenchief
09-16-2018, 02:40 PM
I’m not a Sutton fan and I hope he gets canned. BUT:

Pitt had practically no rushing game

KC changed in 2nd Half and rushed more.

Our D line isn’t bad (that’s not saying much) but our secondary needs some real help.

This season is a prep for next year. I imagine we will cut either Houston or Berry, if not both. That will free up some salary cap room and I expect some of our younger players will start to gel.

We played well enough to win against a team many picked to go to Super Bowl.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:41 PM
Funny after years of CP defending him, NOW it’s time to bash him? Irony.

I've not been a fan, but was willing to give his scheme one more shot; it was clear that we were outgunned physically last year. DJ was done, corners other than Peters were crap, Safety play was garbage and the only real DL presence was Jones.

Upgrades at both ILB spots (yes I know Ragland came last year), different corners, and Fuller while not being a TO machine is a better all-around player, Williams should be an upgrade; Nnadi and Speaks are certainly upgrades as rotational talent, Houston and Ford both healthy-

It's a misuse of the talent you HAVE. Rush 4 and 5 every ****ing play, man up and MAKE THEM BEAT YOU.

Also, that's not IRONY. :)

Easy 6
09-16-2018, 02:42 PM
Its easy enough to understand the frustration with certain chapters in the typical game book that Sutton usually dials up... I was ready to shitcan him myself at one point

But he walked out of Pittsburgh a winner today, having beaten the Steelers AND the refs

Its impossible to blame him for the constant non-calls for his players, pittsburgh was once again allowed to clutch and grab AT WILL... its an ongoing disgrace and EVERYONE here knows it

RINGLEADER
09-16-2018, 02:43 PM
Sutton's scheme was ass. I have no idea why the guy thinks the way to win is to drop 8 back and have them protect squares of space rather than send 4-5 at the person who has to throw the ball.

petegz28
09-16-2018, 02:43 PM
Its easy enough to understand the frustration with certain chapters in the typical game book that Sutton usually dials up... I was ready to shitcan him myself at one point

But he walked out of Pittsburgh a winner today, having beaten the Steelers AND the refs

Its impossible to blame him for the constant non-calls for his players, pittsburgh was once again allowed to clutch and grab AT WILL... its an ongoing disgrace and EVERYONE here knows it

I'll cede the fact the Refs were out to make sure Pit was in the game

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:44 PM
If the scheme is too complicated for your secondary to run, then CHANGE THE SCHEME.

And when they can't run the new scheme either?

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:44 PM
Hey, we've already played 2 of the best QBs we are going to be facing this season. We're currently weathering the worst of the storm.

this is true-BUT the playoffs will be full of these caliber guys.

There's a major scheme issue. If it's too complicated then Sutton needs to simplify it. If you can't cover with 8 and 9 fucking people in coverage then fucking stop it.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:45 PM
Sutton's scheme was ass. I have no idea why the guy thinks the way to win is to drop 8 back and have them protect squares of space rather than send 4-5 at the person who has to throw the ball.

When he sent more, they got burned.

T-post Tom
09-16-2018, 02:45 PM
Exactly...you're leaving gaping hols and tons of time for the QB with a 3 man rush...so why not just blitz and take a chance?

Sutton's scheme was ass. I have no idea why the guy thinks the way to win is to drop 8 back and have them protect squares of space rather than send 4-5 at the person who has to throw the ball.

This. ESPECIALLY when you are up by 21. :clap:

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:45 PM
And when they can't run the new scheme either?

Well, then we get scored on early. I'd rather take my chances and force them to match Mahomes and Co. blow for blow.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:46 PM
Exactly...you're leaving gaping hols and tons of time for the QB with a 3 man rush...so why not just blitz and take a chance?

They did and gave up huge plays.

COchief
09-16-2018, 02:46 PM
Chris Meck always offers in-depth analysis and seems to have a higher level understanding of the game. It's a moronic strategy to expect a HOF QB coming off a crappy game to not pick your D apart. I always thought it was Smiff killing these big lead games, Reid busted out the old RRP (or cute BS play for 2 yards) way too early and then a penalty put Mahomes in 3rd and mostly impossible twice. I'm worried Mahomes is going to have to continually overcome Reid's conservative late game coaching.

Molitoth
09-16-2018, 02:46 PM
Its easy enough to understand the frustration with certain chapters in the typical game book that Sutton usually dials up... I was ready to shitcan him myself at one point

But he walked out of Pittsburgh a winner today, having beaten the Steelers AND the refs

Its impossible to blame him for the constant non-calls for his players, pittsburgh was once again allowed to clutch and grab AT WILL... its an ongoing disgrace and EVERYONE here knows it

While I agree with your assessment on the shitty officiating, Mahomes and Andy/Bienemy won this game today... not Sutton's scheme.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:46 PM
When he sent more, they got burned.

I remember Eric Murray totally whiffing on an unblocked blitz.

Sutton must've tolt him to scare Rape really really bad, but miss him on purpose.

Damn that Bob Sutton!

T-post Tom
09-16-2018, 02:47 PM
Funny after years of CP defending him, NOW it’s time to bash him? Irony.

Lots of folks here NOT supporting him for quite a while now.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:47 PM
While I agree with your assessment on the shitty officiating, Mahomes and Andy/Bienemy won this game today... not Sutton's scheme.

Win as a team, lose as a team.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:47 PM
Sutton's scheme was ass. I have no idea why the guy thinks the way to win is to drop 8 back and have them protect squares of space rather than send 4-5 at the person who has to throw the ball.

The first time he brought a hot blitz, they gave up a 30-yard play to the RB out of the backfield. There was nobody in the entire middle of the field.

These guys suck, firing Sutton isn't going to change that.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:48 PM
If we rush 3 on a 3rd and long one more time I'm going to lose my mind. Our secondary is marginal, at best. The fact this clown can't recognize that rushing 3 and giving them 5-7 seconds to throw the ball does not produce positive results is amazingly stupid. He's a liability. I believe this D has the ability to hold teams under 30, but not if he's going to be calling the plays. He's proved - over and over - that he thinks rushing 3-4 on most plays is the way to go. He's been proved wrong - over and over - when we do that we almost never have a positive play. Yet he keeps going to it over, and over, and over.

This is exactly what I mean-and really, it's 3 and sometimes TWO fucking rushing a lot of the time. It's fucking stupid. You're rushing two and three guys against HOF level QB's? WHAT THE FUCK

Molitoth
09-16-2018, 02:48 PM
And when they can't run the new scheme either?

How do you know unless you try?

*Kinda like looking for a QB who isn't a giant pussy?

petegz28
09-16-2018, 02:48 PM
The first time he brought a hot blitz, they gave up a 30-yard play to the RB out of the backfield. There was nobody in the entire middle of the field.

These guys suck, firing Sutton isn't going to change that.

These guys suck but was the middle open because of them or because of the play call? Given the consistency of Sutton leaving the middle wide open.....I am going with play call

pugsnotdrugs19
09-16-2018, 02:49 PM
2nd half was much better. I’ll deal with getting shredded as long as they’re aggressive.

Just can’t watch them sit there and rush 3 and get picked apart.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:49 PM
This is exactly what I mean-and really, it's 3 and sometimes TWO fucking rushing a lot of the time. It's fucking stupid. You're rushing two and three guys against HOF level QB's? WHAT THE FUCK

You know what HOF level QB's do to blitzes?

It's like people don't actually watch football.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:50 PM
These guys suck but was the middle open because of them or because of the play call? Given the consistency of Sutton leaving the middle wide open.....I am going with play call

That same consistency that fielded a top 5 scoring defense two years in a row with guys like Justin Houston playing at a high level.

Justin Houston fell off the map, they didn't draft his replacement, the defense sucks.

It's basic freaking logic...but hey, FIRE BOB SUTTON!

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:51 PM
When he sent more, they got burned.

I disagree. When they sent more, they rushed Roethlisberger into several bad throws. Yes, they got a few, but his % was CERTAINLY lower than when they only rushed 3 or less. That's the thing-you have to lower the completion percentage or you're going to be out there all fucking day. I don't mind giving up a few big plays if it also means you get some 3 and outs. It's the damned 12 play drives that kill your defense.

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 02:51 PM
You know what HOF level QB's do to blitzes?

It's like people don't actually watch football.
Well, if you're getting shredded both by rushing 3 and by rushing 5, you might as well rush the extra men and make Roethlisberger as uncomfortable as possible.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:52 PM
You know what HOF level QB's do to blitzes?

It's like people don't actually watch football.

I know for a fact if you give them all ****ing day they will pick you apart. You have to rush the throw.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:53 PM
You know what HOF level QB's do to blitzes?

It's like people don't actually watch football.

No shit, it's JUST LIKE that.

That same consistency that fielded a top 5 scoring defense two years in a row with guys like Justin Houston playing at a high level.

Justin Houston fell off the map, they didn't draft his replacement, the defense sucks.

It's basic freaking logic...but hey, FIRE BOB SUTTON!

*shake my head*

Didn't Pitt score like 40-something against the Jags in the playoffs last year?

And the Jags are the best D in the conference, hands down...

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 02:54 PM
I know for a fact if you give them all ****ing day they will pick you apart. You have to rush the throw.

Well, what if you're being held and have no chance of getting there?

What then, Defensive Guru?

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:56 PM
Well, what if you're being held and have no chance of getting there?

What then, Defensive Guru?

I agree there's a lot of holding that wasn't being called.
I don't really know what to do about that, but I don't think you just give up rushing the passer as a strategy.

InChiefsHeaven
09-16-2018, 02:57 PM
So what about Pitt's defense? Is Pat THAT good, or does their defense suck?

In other words, the Steelers have a goddam good offense. Defense did just enough to win. We have to be better, but we're not gonna face the Steelers every week.

T-post Tom
09-16-2018, 02:57 PM
I agree there's a lot of holding that wasn't being called.
I don't really know what to do about that, but I don't think you just give up rushing the passer as a strategy.

Yep.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 02:57 PM
I disagree. When they sent more, they rushed Roethlisberger into several bad throws. Yes, they got a few, but his % was CERTAINLY lower than when they only rushed 3 or less. That's the thing-you have to lower the completion percentage or you're going to be out there all fucking day. I don't mind giving up a few big plays if it also means you get some 3 and outs. It's the damned 12 play drives that kill your defense.

It's the 55-yard TD drives that take 12 seconds that lose games.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 02:58 PM
2nd half was much better. I’ll deal with getting shredded as long as they’re aggressive.

Just can’t watch them sit there and rush 3 and get picked apart.

this is exactly what I am talking about- they started rushing more 4 and 5. Rushing the throw, making Ben move in the pocket, etc. Yes, they gave up a few plays, but they also got some stops.

I much prefer that.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:00 PM
I agree there's a lot of holding that wasn't being called.
I don't really know what to do about that, but I don't think you just give up rushing the passer as a strategy.

They didn't completely abandon the rush. There were several 5-man rushes in the 4th quarter. The difference was that the DB's made plays. Other than Allen Bailey's sack, they didn't get any more or less pressure than they had most of the 2nd half.

T-post Tom
09-16-2018, 03:00 PM
I disagree. When they sent more, they rushed Roethlisberger into several bad throws. Yes, they got a few, but his % was CERTAINLY lower than when they only rushed 3 or less. That's the thing-you have to lower the completion percentage or you're going to be out there all ****ing day. I don't mind giving up a few big plays if it also means you get some 3 and outs. It's the damned 12 play drives that kill your defense.

You've got my vote for DC.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:01 PM
I agree there's a lot of holding that wasn't being called.
I don't really know what to do about that, but I don't think you just give up rushing the passer as a strategy.

No one gave up rushing the passer.

He started mixing coverages.

There were well timed blitzes called throughout the game...

All the way to Pittsburgh's final drive...

And we won in Pittsburgh, a place where we've been getting blown out for YEARS.

Anyone remember the particular 44-10 beatdown where Polamalu picked off Huard and a frustrated LJ dragged Polamalu down by his hair?

Gunther never won in Pittsburgh, as DC or HC.

I was in Kindergarten and Bill Kenney was QB last time we won @Pitt.

So, forgive me for not grabbing my pitchfork and chasing Sutton out of town on a rail just yet...

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:01 PM
So what about Pitt's defense? Is Pat THAT good, or does their defense suck?

In other words, the Steelers have a goddam good offense. Defense did just enough to win. We have to be better, but we're not gonna face the Steelers every week.

I don't know, man. I think maybe Pat IS THAT GOOD. Also, I think the Steeler's Defense is not quite what it usually is. But I think it's still an above average squad.

It's true we're not gonna face the Steelers every week, but this is also not the Steelers at their best.

I don't think we're a top flight talent defense. I also don't think we utilize the talent we DO have very well. If y'all want to take issue with that, I guess have at it.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:02 PM
You've got my vote for DC.

Really?

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:06 PM
No one gave up rushing the passer.

He started mixing coverages.

There were well timed blitzes called throughout the game...

All the way to Pittsburgh's final drive...

And we won in Pittsburgh, a place where we've been getting blown out for YEARS.

Anyone remember the particular 44-10 beatdown where Polamalu picked off Huard and a frustrated LJ dragged Polamalu down by his hair?

Gunther never won in Pittsburgh, as DC or HC.

I was in Kindergarten and Bill Kenney was QB last time we won @Pitt.

So, forgive me for not grabbing my pitchfork and chasing Sutton out of town on a rail just yet...

In the second half, when we actually got some stops, we did in fact rush 4 and 5 guys. All I'm saying is- it sure looks a lot more like an NFL defense when we do that. I'm not sure why that's controversial. I think we've seen enough proof that rushing 3 and sometimes fucking 2 (!) is maybe not working. Yet, We do it A LOT. So I think it's dumb. I guess that makes me an idiot that doesn't watch the games. Whatever. I was in 8th grade when we won that game in Pittsburgh, by the way.

jimidollar
09-16-2018, 03:07 PM
Not a Sutton fan, but our defense hardly has any talent. Which starters would even sniff the field on another team?

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:10 PM
I don't know, man. I think maybe Pat IS THAT GOOD. Also, I think the Steeler's Defense is not quite what it usually is. But I think it's still an above average squad.

It's true we're not gonna face the Steelers every week, but this is also not the Steelers at their best.

I don't think we're a top flight talent defense. I also don't think we utilize the talent we DO have very well. If y'all want to take issue with that, I guess have at it.

What talent? Outside of Fuller, there isn't a single starter on the back end of this defense. On any other team, Nelson would be a backup, Scandrick would be a backup. The biggest blunder on defense today was by Eric Murray and if it weren't for the Chiefs, he'd be unemployed.

Dee Ford is a bust, Justin Houston is just plain busted. KPass is a no-show, Reggie Ragland is a MLB that can't tackle.

In all seriousness, there's 3 guys on this defense that would compete for starting jobs on other teams - Hitchens, Fuller, Jones, and that's probably it.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:10 PM
Not a Sutton fan, but our defense hardly has any talent. Which starters would even sniff the field on another team?

I'll bet the Bills would take Sutton and our entire defense over whatever they've got going on right about now...

Iconic
09-16-2018, 03:10 PM
Simply do not have the talent on defense. When he sends the house they can't get home and when he rushes three they abuse the soft zones and run drags and screens. Lose/Lose situation and coupled with the lack of talent it exacerbates.

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 03:11 PM
I'll bet the Bills would take Sutton and our entire defense over whatever they've got going on right about now...
That's a horrifically low bar to set.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:11 PM
What talent? Outside of Fuller, there isn't a single starter on the back end of this defense. On any other team, Nelson would be a backup, Scandrick would be a backup. The biggest blunder on defense today was by Eric Murray and if it weren't for the Chiefs, he'd be unemployed.

Dee Ford is a bust, Justin Houston is just plain busted. KPass is a no-show, Reggie Ragland is a MLB that can't tackle.

In all seriousness, there's 3 guys on this defense that would compete for starting jobs on other teams - Hitchens, Fuller, Jones, and that's probably it.
Sad, but true.

Our ends suck, LBs suck, and outside of Berry and Fuller, the DBs are flaming garbage.

Amazing Sutton has done what he's done, considering.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:11 PM
Not a Sutton fan, but our defense hardly has any talent. Which starters would even sniff the field on another team?

well, I mean you have what, 4 new starters and 3 or 4 new rotational guys and have the same results...

So, is it that the team can't identify talent? They sure have no issues on the offensive side of the ball.

Is it that the scheme is too complicated and so guys aren't in the right place because they're confused?

Well then that's a coaching/scheme issue.

I'm totally open to other ideas, but I think it seems pretty clear. The one thing the Chiefs did scheme-wise today that was right on was bracketing AB and making the Steelers beat them elsewhere. Problem is, Mahomes threw 6 TD's and it still was ALMOST not enough. I mean, I think it's pretty clear.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:13 PM
That's a horrifically low bar to set.

That's how bad the talent level is on this defense.

Jone, Fuller, and Hitchens.

And Berry when he's healthy.

The rest of the guys are backups, bro.

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 03:15 PM
Not a Sutton fan, but our defense hardly has any talent. Which starters would even sniff the field on another team?

Jones, Houston, Hitchens, Ragland, and Fuller for sure. Nandi and Ford on a few teams at least. I'd even argue Nelson or perhaps Bailey or Ford on a few of the real garbage teams. But even if you ignore them since I think your question was really about who would start on a majority of teams, you've got 5-7.

Now I'm not really disagreeing with your overall point, but we do have a little talent. Just very little in the secondary. My frustration is that he isn't trying anything new. It is clear bend but don't break isn't working. Playing prevent in the second quarter didn't work today.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:16 PM
well, I mean you have what, 4 new starters and 3 or 4 new rotational guys and have the same results...

So, is it that the team can't identify talent? They sure have no issues on the offensive side of the ball.

Is it that the scheme is too complicated and so guys aren't in the right place because they're confused?[/QUOTE]

How did they pick all defense in the draft and not get a single defensive starter??

Well then that's a coaching/scheme issue.

I'm totally open to other ideas, but I think it seems pretty clear. The one thing the Chiefs did scheme-wise today that was right on was bracketing AB and making the Steelers beat them elsewhere. Problem is, Mahomes threw 6 TD's and it still was ALMOST not enough. I mean, I think it's pretty clear.


It was clear that the game would never have been that close if not for the refs.

It's a team effort to beat the Steelers AND the refs.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:17 PM
What talent? Outside of Fuller, there isn't a single starter on the back end of this defense. On any other team, Nelson would be a backup, Scandrick would be a backup. The biggest blunder on defense today was by Eric Murray and if it weren't for the Chiefs, he'd be unemployed.

Dee Ford is a bust, Justin Houston is just plain busted. KPass is a no-show, Reggie Ragland is a MLB that can't tackle.

In all seriousness, there's 3 guys on this defense that would compete for starting jobs on other teams - Hitchens, Fuller, Jones, and that's probably it.

I agree it appears that way. I just can't see it being that they whiffed completely on all of those players' talent level. I mean, can the front office really be that bad? They sure seem to be able to identify offensive talent, yeah?

Murray looks like shit. I agree. I don't think Nelson is all that bad, but he's a 3rd corner in most good defenses. So why would you rush 3 and trust those guys to try to cover for 8 or 9 seconds? By your own statement, Sutton mixed it up and rushed 4 and 5 some in the second half-and we got some stops.
I think you need to rush at least 4 on every down, mixing and matching where the extra man comes from. Zone blitz. I think letting QB's sit back there and pick apart your mediocre secondary is a bad idea. I'm not sure why that's controversial.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:19 PM
That same consistency that fielded a top 5 scoring defense two years in a row with guys like Justin Houston playing at a high level.

Justin Houston fell off the map, they didn't draft his replacement, the defense sucks.

It's basic freaking logic...but hey, FIRE BOB SUTTON!

Do you think maybe there's enough film of it that at this point, opposing offensive coordinators have figured out how to destroy it? It's been YEARS now, since it was an effective defense.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 03:20 PM
Jones, Houston, Hitchens, Ragland, and Fuller for sure. Nandi and Ford on a few teams at least. I'd even argue Nelson or perhaps Bailey or Ford on a few of the real garbage teams. But even if you ignore them since I think your question was really about who would start on a majority of teams, you've got 5-7.

Now I'm not really disagreeing with your overall point, but we do have a little talent. Just very little in the secondary. My frustration is that he isn't trying anything new. It is clear bend but don't break isn't working. Playing prevent in the second quarter didn't work today.
ROFL

I don't know what game YOU were watching.

He ran zone blitzes, cover 2s, cover 1s, cover 3s...man unders, 2unders...he ran ILB blitzes, stunts designed to free up those blitzers, and on a Dime blitz GOT THE BLITZER OPEN FREE TO THE QB, AND THE BLITZER MISSED.

Sutton threw everything AND the kitchen sink at the wall today.

BryanBusby
09-16-2018, 03:22 PM
ROFL

I don't know what game YOU were watching.

He ran zone blitzes, cover 2s, cover 1s, cover 3s...man unders, 2unders...he ran ILB blitzes, stunts designed to free up those blitzers, and on a Dime blitz GOT THE BLITZER OPEN FREE TO THE QB, AND THE BLITZER MISSED.

Sutton threw everything AND the kitchen sink at the wall today.
He did and some of it actually worked and he went into his shell rushing 3 and it's so fucking baffling.

He's bad and needs to go, but not entirely on him. Brett Veach needs to be feeling some heat for setting the team up on having to rely on Eric Murray. Eric Murray is a fucking walking big gain.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:23 PM
well, I mean you have what, 4 new starters and 3 or 4 new rotational guys and have the same results...

So, is it that the team can't identify talent? They sure have no issues on the offensive side of the ball.

Is it that the scheme is too complicated and so guys aren't in the right place because they're confused?

Well then that's a coaching/scheme issue.

I'm totally open to other ideas, but I think it seems pretty clear. The one thing the Chiefs did scheme-wise today that was right on was bracketing AB and making the Steelers beat them elsewhere. Problem is, Mahomes threw 6 TD's and it still was ALMOST not enough. I mean, I think it's pretty clear.

Obviously they're much better at scouting offense than defense. I mean, Dontari Poe didn't struggle in this defense. Neither did Justin Houston or Eric Berry before they broke. This scheme that everybody hates generated back to back top 5 scoring defenses for the first time since the Chiefs were in the ***AFL***.

This scheme, with Pioli's players, won a lot of games that the offense tried to give away. Once Pioli's players were gone and the core of this team because guys like Dee Ford, they fell off a cliff. It's obvious what happened.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:24 PM
That's how bad the talent level is on this defense.

Jone, Fuller, and Hitchens.

And Berry when he's healthy.

The rest of the guys are backups, bro.

Well, I mean is it really that they're that bad, or is it that schematically they're not being put in a position to play well? I mean that would mean they've totally whiffed for like THREE YEARS on EVERY personnel decision other than Fuller and Hitchens. When they've clearly been aces at selecting offensive talent. I mean I guess it's possible, but the same guys picked Mahomes, Hunt, Hill, Watkins, etc, etc, etc.

I'm sick of seeing enemy receivers catch balls with nobody within ten yards of them. Are these players really THAT stupid? Because the measurables would indicate they shouldn't be that bad.

Maybe you're right-but I don't see how they can hit offensive player selection out of the park and shit the bed that bad on defensive personnel. It's got to be the defensive concept.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:25 PM
Do you think maybe there's enough film of it that at this point, opposing offensive coordinators have figured out how to destroy it? It's been YEARS now, since it was an effective defense.

Actually, no it hasn't. The defense finished 3rd in points and 7th in yards in 2015.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:26 PM
Jones, Houston, Hitchens, Ragland, and Fuller for sure. Nandi and Ford on a few teams at least. I'd even argue Nelson or perhaps Bailey or Ford on a few of the real garbage teams. But even if you ignore them since I think your question was really about who would start on a majority of teams, you've got 5-7.

Now I'm not really disagreeing with your overall point, but we do have a little talent. Just very little in the secondary. My frustration is that he isn't trying anything new. It is clear bend but don't break isn't working. Playing prevent in the second quarter didn't work today.

Ragland is freaking awful. Absolutely awful.

tboss-27
09-16-2018, 03:28 PM
What changed after the first two drives? Seriously - two 3 and outs and then Sutton gets up 21 and decides we should start playing 8 in coverage every time instead of continuing what was working. The Steelers literally decided to stop running the ball not far into the 2nd quarter, because they saw every time they lined up w/ 4-5 WRs/TE's that Bob was going to drop 8. Every. Time. When we sent pressure, we got off the field. For the better part of 3 quarters, we got our asses handed to us on D as we gave them 5+ seconds to throw the ball on nearly every down.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:28 PM
Is it that the scheme is too complicated and so guys aren't in the right place because they're confused?

How did they pick all defense in the draft and not get a single defensive starter??


It was clear that the game would never have been that close if not for the refs.

It's a team effort to beat the Steelers AND the refs.[/QUOTE]

I think you make a really important point-WHY AREN'T ANY OF THIS YEAR'S DRAFTEES STARTING? Speaks and NNadi get some PT. Where is everyone else? At least their physical measurables should indicate that they should be better than fucking MURRAY whom I think I might beat in a footrace. Is it because the defense is too fucking complicated or something? What gives?

Maybe you're right and we just can't spot defensive talent. It would be a pretty big disparity though, wouldn't it, that they're SO GOOD at identifying offensive talent?

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:29 PM
I agree it appears that way. I just can't see it being that they whiffed completely on all of those players' talent level. I mean, can the front office really be that bad? They sure seem to be able to identify offensive talent, yeah?

Pioli drafted Houston, Berry, and Poe. He also drafted John Baldwin, Dexter McCluster, and Jeff Allen.

A lot of front offices have an eye for one side of the ball but not the other.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Actually, no it hasn't. The defense finished 3rd in points and 7th in yards in 2015.

This is 2018. That was three years ago. And countless huge leads blown ago.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Is it because the defense is too fucking complicated or something? What gives?

Preseason should tell you everything. Playing vanilla schemes against the other teams backups, they still freaking suck.

They can't get on the field because they aren't good enough. Plain and simple.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:32 PM
This is 2018. That was three years ago. And countless huge leads blown ago.

In 2015, teams had 2 full years of film. In 2016, despite dropping off in yards, they still finished 7th in scoring.

You asked if teams had just figured out Sutton's defense. The answer is "that has nothing to do with what is happening now".

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:36 PM
Pioli drafted Houston, Berry, and Poe. He also drafted John Baldwin, Dexter McCluster, and Jeff Allen.

A lot of front offices have an eye for one side of the ball but not the other.

yeah well, they went 2-14 with those guys. New coaches, new schemes, and they immediately went back to the play-offs. It's pretty clear at this point that that fucking 2-3-6 bullshit does not fucking work anymore, and I'd argue that it never really did.

We forced 3 and outs , went up 21 points, and then went to rushing two and three and let Roethlisberger sling his way back into it. When it got close we went back to mixing in some blitzes and got just enough stops with a totally gassed unit from spending so much time on the field. We can argue talent vs. scheme-which is what we're doing of course. I think it ought to be a mid level defense, but it's performing much lower. And I hate not pressuring an NFL QB.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 03:37 PM
yeah well, they went 2-14 with those guys. New coaches, new schemes, and they immediately went back to the play-offs. It's pretty clear at this point that that fucking 2-3-6 bullshit does not fucking work anymore, and I'd argue that it never really did.

We forced 3 and outs , went up 21 points, and then went to rushing two and three and let Roethlisberger sling his way back into it. When it got close we went back to mixing in some blitzes and got just enough stops with a totally gassed unit from spending so much time on the field. We can argue talent vs. scheme-which is what we're doing of course. I think it ought to be a mid level defense, but it's performing much lower. And I hate not pressuring an NFL QB.

I just want the defense to improve. That's all I want. If they want to fire Sutton, go ahead. I just think all the people calling for his head are going to be pretty disappointed...

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 03:46 PM
I just want the defense to improve. That's all I want. If they want to fire Sutton, go ahead. I just think all the people calling for his head are going to be pretty disappointed...

I don't think our positions are as far apart as you might think.
We have a disagreement in opinion of which is the biggest reason our defense blows and is likely to fuck a magical season.

I say-
we forced two three and outs by being aggressive. We got up 21, and then started rushing three and occasionally two and dropping 6. Roethlisberger had all day and brought 'em back to tie it up. Second half, we started mixing in some 4 and 5 man rushes, and while we gave up some plays, we also got some stops.

My point is-if we'd never stopped being aggressive, I don't think the game is anywhere near that close. The defense gets enough stops to not be so gassed, and we win by two or three scores.

I disagree that allowing a HOF caliber QB to sit back, have a sandwich and a beer and peruse your defense is a good idea ever, and especially if your secondary is suspect. More guys in coverage doesn't work, and I feel like more guys rushing the passer seemed to work better. No question there are talent deficiencies, we just disagree on the usage of what we've got I guess.

The Franchise
09-16-2018, 03:47 PM
I just want the defense to improve. That's all I want. If they want to fire Sutton, go ahead. I just think all the people calling for his head are going to be pretty disappointed...

This.

RunKC
09-16-2018, 03:48 PM
I’m going to have fun showing everyone here that it’s clearly a personnel problem.

Ragland missing an easy tackle he should make giving up a 2nd and 20 and Murray whiffing on a blitz that Sutton dialed up perfectly.

Actually just every Eric Murray play. God that guy sucks.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 04:01 PM
I’m going to have fun showing everyone here that it’s clearly a personnel problem.

Ragland missing an easy tackle he should make giving up a 2nd and 20 and Murray whiffing on a blitz that Sutton dialed up perfectly.

Actually just every Eric Murray play. God that guy sucks.

yeah I'm not going to argue either of those at all. Murray is fucking shitty. Ragland has not looked good yet either-and he looked solid the last half of last season I thought, for the most part.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 04:02 PM
ROFL

I don't know what game YOU were watching.

He ran zone blitzes, cover 2s, cover 1s, cover 3s...man unders, 2unders...he ran ILB blitzes, stunts designed to free up those blitzers, and on a Dime blitz GOT THE BLITZER OPEN FREE TO THE QB, AND THE BLITZER MISSED.

Sutton threw everything AND the kitchen sink at the wall today.

And when he does that, it's much more effective. From the late first quarter into the third quarter he didn't do that at all, but rushed three and sometimes FUCKING TWO FOR FUCKSAKE and Raperburger ate us alive.

Why the FUCK does he do that?!

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 04:02 PM
I’m going to have fun showing everyone here that it’s clearly a personnel problem.

Ragland missing an easy tackle he should make giving up a 2nd and 20 and Murray whiffing on a blitz that Sutton dialed up perfectly.

Actually just every Eric Murray play. God that guy sucks.
You know, Sutton CAN substitute Watts in for him. That's not illegal.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 04:03 PM
You know, Sutton CAN substitute Watts in for him. That's not illegal.

I think it's time, right? Jesus.

FringeNC
09-16-2018, 04:07 PM
Our offensive is obviously explosive the pass D is a joke. Teams will just abandon the run and throw every down against us for both reasons. I think it's even money that we give up the most passing yards for the season in league history.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:09 PM
yeah well, they went 2-14 with those guys. New coaches, new schemes, and they immediately went back to the play-offs.:hmmm:

Actually...it was just Romeo Crennel as Pioli's 'yes-man' who went 2-14.

Haley, who never wanted Matt Cassel and wanted a real QB to challenge Cassel in camp, won the AFC West in 2010 and had the team IN CONTENTION TO WIN IT AGAIN WHEN HE GOT FIRED in 2011.

Haley's 'scheme' was no different - same coaches, same GM.

Haley just demanded that they play harder, do more, be better.

He turned DJs career around, got the most out of JC, and actually had Dwayne Bowe leading the league in TD catches.

It ain't about scheme.

It's about accoutability.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:10 PM
I think it's time, right? Jesus.

I don't know if Watt is any better than Murray...

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 04:11 PM
No harm in finding out. Murray might be worse than Amerson at doing his job.

JakeF
09-16-2018, 04:11 PM
So does that mean all the Sutton defenders have given up?

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:12 PM
I don't think our positions are as far apart as you might think.
We have a disagreement in opinion of which is the biggest reason our defense blows and is likely to fuck a magical season.

I say-
we forced two three and outs by being aggressive. We got up 21, and then started rushing three and occasionally two and dropping 6. Roethlisberger had all day and brought 'em back to tie it up. Second half, we started mixing in some 4 and 5 man rushes, and while we gave up some plays, we also got some stops.

My point is-if we'd never stopped being aggressive, I don't think the game is anywhere near that close. The defense gets enough stops to not be so gassed, and we win by two or three scores.

I disagree that allowing a HOF caliber QB to sit back, have a sandwich and a beer and peruse your defense is a good idea ever, and especially if your secondary is suspect. More guys in coverage doesn't work, and I feel like more guys rushing the passer seemed to work better. No question there are talent deficiencies, we just disagree on the usage of what we've got I guess.

I'll just leave you with this...

Remember when the Chiefs fired Greg Robinson and the legendary Gunther Cunningham came in and fixed the defense? Oh yeah, I understand. It's hard to remember something that DIDN'T HAPPEN.

In Cunningham's first year replacing Robinson, they fell from 19th in points to 29th and from 29th in yards to 31st. They dropped from FIRST in turnovers per game to TWENTY SECOND. In Gunther's second year, they improved to 16th in points and 25th in yards, only marginally better than 2003. Guess who they drafted that year? Oh yeah, Derrick Johnson. It was also Jared Allen's first year as a full-time starter.

Honestly I think Gunther Cunningham is one of the most overrated coaches in the history of Chiefs football but he's absolutely revered here for whatever reason. The guy couldn't improve Robinson's defense without a future HOF'er in the middle of his defense and even then, he barely managed to approach middle of the pack.

I wonder who Neil Smith remembers more fondly - the guy who helped him win a ring or the guy that was obsessed with the 4-3 "falcon"?

Tribal Warfare
09-16-2018, 04:13 PM
You know, Sutton CAN substitute Watts in for him. That's not illegal.

Dontari would second that

Chief Roundup
09-16-2018, 04:14 PM
There are definitely maddening things about this defense, like when Houston and Ford are both in coverage in the middle of the field instead of rushing the passer.
We can all complain all we want but Sutton is going nowhere so it is a waste of energy to continue.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:15 PM
I'll just leave you with this...

Remember when the Chiefs fired Greg Robinson and the legendary Gunther Cunningham came in and fixed the defense? Oh yeah, I understand. It's hard to remember something that DIDN'T HAPPEN.

In Cunningham's first year replacing Robinson, they fell from 19th in points to 29th and from 29th in yards to 31st. They dropped from FIRST in turnovers per game to TWENTY SECOND. In Gunther's second year, they improved to 16th in points and 25th in yards, only marginally better than 2003. Guess who they drafted that year? Oh yeah, Derrick Johnson. It was also Jared Allen's first year as a full-time starter.

Honestly I think Gunther Cunningham is one of the most overrated coaches in the history of Chiefs football but he's absolutely revered here for whatever reason. The guy couldn't improve Robinson's defense without a future HOF'er in the middle of his defense and even then, he barely managed to approach middle of the pack.

I wonder who Neil Smith remembers more fondly - the guy who helped him win a ring or the guy that was obsessed with the 4-3 "falcon"?

Thank you.

Gunther had exactly 3 good season as a DC.

1995, 1996, and 1997.

And CP thinks he's so great...

He was DOGSHIT without DT.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:15 PM
There are definitely maddening things about this defense, like when Houston and Ford are both in coverage in the middle of the field instead of rushing the passer.
We can all complain all we want but Sutton is going nowhere so it is a waste of energy to continue.

Neither Ford nor Houston were covering the middle of the field today much at all. They had flats responsibility most of the time they were in coverage.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:16 PM
Dontari would second that

Sutton's job is to try and win games. If the guys behind Poe, why would he do that? It's the GM's job to get decent backups.

BigRedChief
09-16-2018, 04:16 PM
I’m sick and tired of seeing Dee Ford and Houston 25 yards down the field trying to cover the TE or RB.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:18 PM
I’m sick and tired of seeing Dee Ford and Houston 25 yards down the field trying to cover the TE or RB.

Dee Ford had coverage in the flat. Ben broke containment and the TE took off down the sideline. Dee Ford just stood there like he didn't know what was going on.

That was NOT a designed play, that was Dee Ford playing like a guy with zero football IQ and not following through on the play.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:19 PM
There are definitely maddening things about this defense, like when Houston and Ford are both in coverage in the middle of the field instead of rushing the passer.

The thing about a well-timed blitz is that...it has to be well-timed.

Otherwise, if the Steelers are holding the whole game (they were) and the refs aren't calling it (they weren't) you'll just get your players held up...

Why would ANYONE with ANY football acumen do that??

Serious question.

Sassy Squatch
09-16-2018, 04:19 PM
Dee Ford had coverage in the flat. Ben broke containment and the TE took off down the sideline. Dee Ford just stood there like he didn't know what was going on.

That was NOT a designed play, that was Dee Ford playing like a guy with zero football IQ and not following through on the play.
So, literally what the fuck he said.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:20 PM
Dee Ford had coverage in the flat. Ben broke containment and the TE took off down the sideline. Dee Ford just stood there like he didn't know what was going on.

That was NOT a designed play, that was Dee Ford playing like a guy with zero football IQ and not following through on the play.

You mean like a guy who runs away from the ball carrier in confusion?

Yeah, Dee Ford has NO nose for the ball.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:21 PM
So, literally what the fuck he said.

No, he blamed Sutton. Sutton didn't design that play, nor did he tell Dee Ford to just stand there.

Tribal Warfare
09-16-2018, 04:21 PM
Sutton's job is to try and win games. If the guys behind Poe, why would he do that? It's the GM's job to get decent backups.



as I said he's rigid , and at one point he was playing 94% of the snaps when NFL average was 72% . The guy ruined his career



,

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:21 PM
I’m sick and tired of seeing Dee Ford and Houston 25 yards down the field trying to cover the TE or RB.

Then fix Houston's knee...and make Dee Ford smarter.

I dare ya.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:22 PM
as I said he's rigid , and at one point he was playing 94% of the snaps when NFL average was 72% . The guy ruined his career



,

No, John Dorsey ruined his career by not finding anybody that could provide even 50% of what Poe could provide.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:22 PM
as I said he's rigid , and at one point he was playing 94% of the snaps when NFL average was 72% . The guy ruined his career




Or, there wasn't a competent backup...

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:23 PM
No, John Dorsey ruined his career by not finding anybody that could provide even 50% of what Poe could provide.

This^

It's Sutton's job to play the players that give him the best chance to win.

That was Poe at the time...

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:24 PM
Neither Ford nor Houston were covering the middle of the field today much at all. They had flats responsibility most of the time they were in coverage.

Correct.

Some people didn't watch the same game we watched.

JakeF
09-16-2018, 04:32 PM
Sutton will never have enough talent. Every year some part of our defense will suck because it lacks enough talent. That's what happens when the coach is really the one who isn't good enough. I imagine if you put Sutton on a team with a defensive-minded Head Coach he would be fine. A Defensive HC would keep an eye on Sutton during practice to tell he all the small things he was fucking up. During the game he could tell Sutton when to be aggressive, when to back off. Bob Sutton is Gunther without Marty.

Tribal Warfare
09-16-2018, 04:34 PM
Or, there wasn't a competent backup...

He had Howard to rotate with and they hardly did it

Chief Roundup
09-16-2018, 04:39 PM
Neither Ford nor Houston were covering the middle of the field today much at all. They had flats responsibility most of the time they were in coverage.

I understand it only happened a couple of times but it is just something I cannot stand.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:40 PM
I understand it only happened a couple of times but it is just something I cannot stand.

Every team does it. Some teams do it more than the Chiefs even. It's part of the NFL game.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:41 PM
Correct.

Some people didn't watch the same game we watched.

This is NFL fandom. When a unit is this bad, people need a scapegoat and the DC is a convenient single throat to choke.

The simple fact is that a unit this bad is an organizational failure. It starts at the top, with the people making the picks and acquisitions.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:42 PM
Sutton will never have enough talent. Every year some part of our defense will suck because it lacks enough talent. That's what happens when the coach is really the one who isn't good enough. I imagine if you put Sutton on a team with a defensive-minded Head Coach he would be fine. A Defensive HC would keep an eye on Sutton during practice to tell he all the small things he was fucking up. During the game he could tell Sutton when to be aggressive, when to back off. Bob Sutton is Gunther without Marty.

Sutton had plenty of talent when this defense was carrying the team in 2014 and 2015.

Hammock Parties
09-16-2018, 04:43 PM
Chiefs defense has forced a three and out on the opening drive of the game two weeks in a row.

It's been a huge factor in our hot starts.

Credit where due and Antonio Brown was a non-factor today.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:43 PM
He had Howard to rotate with and they hardly did it

Jaye Howard, yeah he's been lighting up the league since then...

Oh wait, you mean the Jaye Howard that got put on IR two years ago and hasn't played a down since?

You meant THAT guy?

ROFL

He wasn't the answer.

JakeF
09-16-2018, 04:43 PM
He had Howard to rotate with and they hardly did it
Jaye Howard was a good backup who could play any position along the Defensive line.

2016

96 Jaye Howard DT
94 Jarvis Jenkins DT
95 Chris Jones DE
93 David King DE
99 Rakeem Nunez-Roches DT
92 Dontari Poe DT
98 Kendall Reyes DT

2015

97 Allen Bailey DE
70 Mike DeVito DE
96 Jaye Howard DT
93 David King DE
99 Rakeem Nunez-Roches DT
92 Dontari Poe DT

2014

97 Allen Bailey DE
70 Mike DeVito DE
96 Jaye Howard DT
92 Dontari Poe DT
94 Kevin Vickerson DT
99 Vance Walker DT

It's not like there weren't backups. Sutton just didn't want to play a backup that wasn't as good as Poe.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:44 PM
Chiefs defense has forced a three and out on the opening drive of the game two weeks in a row.

It's been a huge factor in our hot starts.

Credit where due and Antonio Brown was a non-factor today.
Absolutely.

RunKC
09-16-2018, 04:44 PM
Forcing punt’s on the first 2 drives of the game and 3 of the last 4 drives of the game.

With this offense, it’s more than enough.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:45 PM
It's not like there weren't backups. Sutton just didn't want to play a backup that wasn't as good as Poe.

Right.

He wanted to win games.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 04:46 PM
Forcing punt’s on the first 2 drives of the game and 3 of the last 4 drives of the game.

With this offense, it’s more than enough.

With the rules and big money QB contracts, it's how the game is played in 2018.

Glad we're finally in this century.

Tribal Warfare
09-16-2018, 04:48 PM
Jaye Howard, yeah he's been lighting up the league since then...

Oh wait, you mean the Jaye Howard that got put on IR two years ago and hasn't played a down since?

You meant THAT guy?

ROFL

He wasn't the answer.


during the year when Poe got injured, he had a very good year people were wanting him resigned and dumping Poe due to him being damaged goods.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 04:48 PM
during the year when Poe got injured, he had a very good year people were wanting him resigned and dumping Poe due to him being damaged goods.

And then Howard got hurt.

Tribal Warfare
09-16-2018, 04:53 PM
And then Howard got hurt.

BTW I don't blame him playing cover 2 under, because of the QB rules but the use of said talent

Pitt Gorilla
09-16-2018, 04:57 PM
Exactly...you're leaving gaping hols and tons of time for the QB with a 3 man rush...so why not just blitz and take a chance?

We did and they picked it up.

beach tribe
09-16-2018, 05:00 PM
They did and gave up huge plays.

They gave up huge plays no matter what but were more effective when brining pressure.

If you couldnt see that you cant be helped.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 05:02 PM
They gave up huge plays no matter what but were more effective when brining pressure.

If you couldnt see that you cant be helped.

When the players executed, they were effective. They made plays when they rushed 3 and they made plays when they rushed 5 and 6. They also gave up big yards when they rushed 3 and when they rushed 5 and 6.

That's what happens when you lack talent. They're inconsistent, regardless of scheme.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 05:02 PM
They gave up huge plays no matter what but were more effective when brining pressure.

If you couldnt see that you cant be helped.

But you can't blitz every down.

For a variety of reasons.

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 05:56 PM
ROFL

I don't know what game YOU were watching.

He ran zone blitzes, cover 2s, cover 1s, cover 3s...man unders, 2unders...he ran ILB blitzes, stunts designed to free up those blitzers, and on a Dime blitz GOT THE BLITZER OPEN FREE TO THE QB, AND THE BLITZER MISSED.

Sutton threw everything AND the kitchen sink at the wall today.

What percent of the time did he rush only 3 or 4 guys? Kitchen sink is not what I saw today. Yes he called a great blitz with Murray and Murray did the classic panic and make the QB have an easy escape. I'm sure I could watch the game again and notice a few blitzes I didn't pick up but this defense still played in an overall shell today.

Rudy tossed tigger's salad
09-16-2018, 05:59 PM
And also, this.

It's Mahomes, bitch.

please stop trying to make this a thing

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 06:00 PM
What percent of the time did he rush only 3 or 4 guys? Kitchen sink is not what I saw today. Yes he called a great blitz with Murray and Murray did the classic panic and make the QB have an easy escape. I'm sure I could watch the game again and notice a few blitzes I didn't pick up but this defense still played in an overall shell today.

You don't bring the kitchen sink against a QB like Roethlisberger.

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 06:04 PM
You don't bring the kitchen sink against a QB like Roethlisberger.

I never said you should. I was just referencing his use of the phrase saying we did. Ben also showed that rushing 3 doesn't work.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:06 PM
What percent of the time did he rush only 3 or 4 guys? Kitchen sink is not what I saw today. Yes he called a great blitz with Murray and Murray did the classic panic and make the QB have an easy escape. I'm sure I could watch the game again and notice a few blitzes I didn't pick up but this defense still played in an overall shell today.

Did you watch it the first time?

Honest question.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:06 PM
please stop trying to make this a thing

You go back to your corner and don't tell me what to do.
IT'S MAHOMES, BITCH.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:08 PM
during the year when Poe got injured, he had a very good year people were wanting him resigned and dumping Poe due to him being damaged goods.

What year was THAT?

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 06:09 PM
Did you watch it the first time?

Honest question.

Sure I did but in my nervous state and focus on other players on certain plays I'm always open to having missed something. I'm pretty comfortable in saying that the overall theme stayed the same in rushing 3 or 4 and getting terrible results out of it. Could you answer my question about what percent of times we rushed 4 or less in the second half?

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:11 PM
They gave up huge plays no matter what but were more effective when brining pressure.

If you couldnt see that you cant be helped.
JFC.

YOU CAN'T BLITZ EVERY DOWN


PRESSURE IS ONLY EFFECTIVE IF THE QB DOESN'T KNOW WHERE IT'S COMING FROM, OR IF IT'S COMING AT ALL.

It's like chess, or jabs in a boxing match.

FFS, it's not complicated.

"BRING 10 ON EVERY DOWN!! GO ZERO SO IF SOMEONE MISSES A TACKLE, WE GET THE BALL RIGHT BACK!!!"


Rubes.

jspchief
09-16-2018, 06:12 PM
His scheme has been trash since he arrived. He just doesn't have the talent to mask it anymore.



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Demonpenz
09-16-2018, 06:12 PM
At some point your defensive lineman have to be able to disengage being held.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:13 PM
Sure I did but in my nervous state and focus on other players on certain plays I'm always open to having missed something. I'm pretty comfortable in saying that the overall theme stayed the same in rushing 3 or 4 and getting terrible results out of it. Could you answer my question about what percent of times we rushed 4 or less in the second half?
Roughly 35% - there was some 3-2-6 dime in the 2nd qtr, as well.

Of course, if a LB or DB is roaming spy, that takes away a rusher, and there were plenty of SPY on obvious passing downs...

So, just because you saw 3 down linmean on a given play doesn't mean there wasn't a spy just out of camerashot.

AND there were a couple blitzes out of that alignment that caught Ben by surprise.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:15 PM
At some point your defensive lineman have to be able to disengage being held.

At some point one would assume the refs WOULD THROW A FUCKING FLAG.

On Ben's TD run, the RT damn near tore JH's jersey off.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:17 PM
His scheme has been trash since he arrived. He just doesn't have the talent to mask it anymore.



So...Sutton's scheme works when he has better players?

Do you think about what you're posting before you hit 'send'?

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 06:17 PM
At some point one would assume the refs WOULD THROW A ****ING FLAG.

On Ben's TD run, the RT damn near tore JH's jersey off.


It was some serious bullshit. They were almost ripping jerseys off all goddamned game long. I don't know what the hell you're supposed to do about that. Send video in to the league, I guess.

J Diddy
09-16-2018, 06:18 PM
I've seen this movie before.

Eleazar
09-16-2018, 06:18 PM
At some point one would assume the refs WOULD THROW A ****ING FLAG.

On Ben's TD run, the RT damn near tore JH's jersey off.

To listen to CP, the officials should be calling holding on our opponents on every play. Never in the history of the NFL has that happened. Every other quality defense in the history of football has somehow found a way to mount an effective pass rush. Yes, even though the meanieheads on the other side are trying to stop them.

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 06:19 PM
Roughly 35% - there was some 3-2-6 dime in the 2nd qtr, as well.

Of course, if a LB or DB is roaming spy, that takes away a rusher, and there were plenty of SPY on obvious passing downs...

So, just because you saw 3 down linmean on a given play doesn't mean there wasn't a spy just out of camerashot.

AND there were a couple blitzes out of that alignment that caught Ben by surprise.

I don't disagree that you can't blitz every down. But when the 3 or 4 man rushes lead to constant terrible results than perhaps the blitzes, which you have argued worked, should be amped up.

Now if you are going to say the blitzes worked because they were a surprise, that still leads to the reality that the 3 or 4 man rushes lead to such bad results that giving up the element of surprise is still worth it to try something else since the other option clearly wasn't working.

You can argue the validity of a spy but again if it's leading to bad results, you have to move on. I'd be interested in seeing the actual percent of 3/4 man rushes and the yards and Ben's effectiveness on said plays.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:20 PM
To listen to CP, the officials should be calling holding on our opponents on every play. Never in the history of the NFL has that happened. Every other quality defense in the history of football has somehow found a way to mount an effective pass rush. Yes, even though the meanieheads on the other side are trying to stop them.

That was some egregious bullshit I haven't seen since we played Manning's Broncos on MNF and they mugged Justin and Tamba with clotheslines and shit.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:22 PM
I don't disagree that you can't blitz every down. But when the 3 or 4 man rushes lead to constant terrible results than perhaps the blitzes, which you have argued worked, should be amped up.

Now if you are going to say the blitzes worked because they were a surprise, that still leads to the reality that the 3 or 4 man rushes lead to such bad results that giving up the element of surprise is still worth it to try something else since the other option clearly wasn't working.

You can argue the validity of a spy but again if it's leading to bad results, you have to move on. I'd be interested in seeing the actual percent of 3/4 man rushes and the yards and Ben's effectiveness on said plays.
Well, that info will be skewed because of all the BS flags that went to Pitt t extend their drives.


If not for the refs, we win 42-10.

42-7.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:22 PM
It was some serious bullshit. They were almost ripping jerseys off all goddamned game long. I don't know what the hell you're supposed to do about that. Send video in to the league, I guess.

SUCH SERIOUS BULLSHIT.

jspchief
09-16-2018, 06:23 PM
So...Sutton's scheme works when he has better players?

Do you think about what you're posting before you hit 'send'?Except it didn't "work". His defenses have always been only capable of stopping either the run or the pass. They've never been good at both. His schemes just sell out to one thing. When he doesn't have enough star players to bail out his bad playcalling, you get 60 pass attempts with 1 sack and almost no pressure all game.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

NJChiefsFan
09-16-2018, 06:27 PM
Well, that info will be skewed because of all the BS flags that went to Pitt t extend their drives.


If not for the refs, we win 42-10.

42-7.

I'm usually in the camp of thinking people here are too biased and don't realize that most teams get screwed at some point. That being said I have to agree that there were a ton of holding calls missed. One play I particularly enjoyed was when Jones and Bailey were having both their shoulder pads being grabbed and pulled. Pretty sure there were 4 guys being blocked on that play. 2 refs had 8 shoulders to watch. 4 were being held. They missed all 4.

I can't sit here and claim conspiracy because I haven't actually seen the damn play but I would pay money to see that Scandrick call.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 06:29 PM
Except it didn't "work". His defenses have always been only capable of stopping either the run or the pass. They've never been good at both. His schemes just sell out to one thing. When he doesn't have enough star players to bail out his bad playcalling, you get 60 pass attempts with 1 sack and almost no pressure all game.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

In 2015, they were 9th in passing yards and 8th in rushing yards against.

CupidStunt
09-16-2018, 06:29 PM
Do people calling for his head even know what the scheme is? I'm of the mind that it can't get worse so absolutely fire his ass, but no one who'd replace him could make it much better. We can't play man or zone. We can't cover or pass-rush. We can't tackle. We can't win any one-on-ones whatsoever (there's no scheming which accounts for having the ability to beat a guy). For example Justin Houston is fucking DONE. He has no burst whatsoever. No scheme known to man will enable him to get out of his slow-ass stance any faster or close on the QB any quicker with his embarrassingly slow speed.

You guys waste so much energy on this. I said it before the year: this is Arena League football. Expect to allow 25-30 every week, hope to score 30+. So far, so good. We aren't firing Sutton, not until the offseason. Then he has to get fired, and a bunch of big changes made.

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 06:31 PM
Do people calling for his head even know what the scheme is? I'm of the mind that it can't get worse so absolutely fire his ass, but no one who'd replace him could make it much better. We can't play man or zone. We can't cover or pass-rush. We can't tackle. We can't win any one-on-ones whatsoever (there's no scheming which accounts for having the ability to beat a guy). For example Justin Houston is fucking DONE. He has no burst whatsoever. No scheme known to man will enable him to get out of his slow-ass stance any faster or close on the QB any quicker with his embarrassingly slow speed.

You guys waste so much energy on this. I said it before the year: this is Arena League football. Expect to allow 25-30 every week, hope to score 30+. So far, so good. We aren't firing Sutton, not until the offseason. Then he has to get fired, and a bunch of big changes made.

This is exactly where I'm at. :thumb:

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:32 PM
I'm usually in the camp of thinking people here are too biased and don't realize that most teams get screwed at some point. That being said I have to agree that there were a ton of holding calls missed. One play I particularly enjoyed was when Jones and Bailey were having both their shoulder pads being grabbed and pulled. Pretty sure there were 4 guys being blocked on that play. 2 refs had 8 shoulders to watch. 4 were being held. They missed all 4.

I can't sit here and claim conspiracy because I haven't actually seen the damn play but I would pay money to see that Scandrick call.

How about the holding on the play that would've put us up 27-0?

That whole play should've been taped off with yellow tape as a crime scene, JFC

Not only did JH force the fumble, Jones returned it for a TD...and they fucked us in the ass.

Do all these rubes with room temp IQs still talk shit on Sutton if the defense is ALLOWED to have that TD?

Probably so...rubes gonna rube, I guess.

Molitoth
09-16-2018, 06:35 PM
Firing Sutton now can’t be done, but putting him on the public hot seat may entice him to not be so stubborn in his shitty scheme. He can certainly adjust some things mid season if he wanted to. Something tells me they will be content as long as they win.

This offseason he needs to be fired if adjustments aren’t made.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 06:36 PM
Do people calling for his head even know what the scheme is? I'm of the mind that it can't get worse so absolutely fire his ass, but no one who'd replace him could make it much better. We can't play man or zone. We can't cover or pass-rush. We can't tackle. We can't win any one-on-ones whatsoever (there's no scheming which accounts for having the ability to beat a guy). For example Justin Houston is ****ing DONE. He has no burst whatsoever. No scheme known to man will enable him to get out of his slow-ass stance any faster or close on the QB any quicker with his embarrassingly slow speed.

You guys waste so much energy on this. I said it before the year: this is Arena League football. Expect to allow 25-30 every week, hope to score 30+. So far, so good. We aren't firing Sutton, not until the offseason. Then he has to get fired, and a bunch of big changes made.

He runs a 1-gap 3-4, he was Rex Ryan's DC when the Jets went to 2 straight AFC Championship Games with MARK SANCHEZ at QB.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.arrowheadpride.com/platform/amp/2017/10/25/16535446/busting-4-myths-about-the-kansas-city-chiefs-defense-its-not-all-bob-sutton

As far as I can tell, Murray fails to pick up Cooper as he’s handed off in coverage, then doubles down on his mental error by taking a horrific angle to Cooper, letting a big play turn into a HUGE play.

This wasn’t a scheme failure. The players were in place to stop this. They just didn’t do their job, and it wasn’t a particularly tough job. Stuff like that isn’t on the defensive coordinator, especially when these are players we’ve seen execute this stuff CORRECTLY. Sutton can’t predict that guys will suddenly blow coverages like this, or bite ridiculously hard on a run fake...

ping2000
09-16-2018, 06:45 PM
Oopshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180917/5b76e46e8b272a065952cc0f096d1cad.jpg

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 06:47 PM
He runs a 1-gap 3-4, he was Rex Ryan's DC when the Jets went to 2 straight AFC Championship Games with MARK SANCHEZ at QB.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.arrowheadpride.com/platform/amp/2017/10/25/16535446/busting-4-myths-about-the-kansas-city-chiefs-defense-its-not-all-bob-sutton

Great article.

RickObie
09-16-2018, 06:54 PM
So what I think I keep hearing over the last 10 or so posts is - this defense is good?? With a call or two we’d be top 10? We’ve given up over 900 yards passing - what am I missing?

MotherfuckerJones
09-16-2018, 06:56 PM
Want to break this all-22 down. But it seemed like he said fuck it and brought more blitzes. With this D, you can’t just rush 4. Gota bring blitzes and pressure from everywhere

htismaqe
09-16-2018, 06:56 PM
So what I think I keep hearing over the last 10 or so posts is - this defense is good?? With a call or two we’d be top 10? We’ve given up over 900 yards passing - what am I missing?

Pretty much everybody here thinks the defense sucks, so I'm not sure where you got any of that.

We just don't all agree on the primary cause.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 07:01 PM
Well, if that's a 1 gap they're running primarily, then it is indeed the worst personnel I've ever seen up front trying to run it. It sure looks like they're heads up more often than not.

It looks/feels nothing like Ryan's Jets defenses, which were very aggressive in the front seven.

shrug.

Whatever. They're shitty. We can argue all season about why. Hope it gets better.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 07:21 PM
Great article.

Extremely pertinent to the current conversation.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 07:23 PM
Well, if that's a 1 gap they're running primarily, then it is indeed the worst personnel I've ever seen up front trying to run it. It sure looks like they're heads up more often than not.

It looks/feels nothing like Ryan's Jets defenses, which were very aggressive in the front seven.

shrug.

Whatever. They're shitty. We can argue all season about why. Hope it gets better.

They had Darelle Revis and Sheldon fucking Richardson on that defense.

In their prime.

If we had that on the line and at CB...

DRM08
09-16-2018, 07:23 PM
Mahomes passer rating was 155 out of 158 and QBR was 97 out of 100. It was basically a perfect game from the QB and yet the defense still made it a nail biter at the end. Should have been a blowout, even with the shitty refs and Conley's bad fumble.

Red Dawg
09-16-2018, 07:29 PM
6 tds and we won by 5. That's some bad defense. Holding was very bad. Our DL was held a lot. Refs just let it happen for NFL reasons protecting a star player.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 07:37 PM
6 tds and we won by 5. That's some bad defense. Holding was very bad. Our DL was held a lot. Refs just let it happen for NFL reasons protecting a star player.

The holding was bad, but the secondary is atrocious...

But those are players who HAVE executed the things being asked of them.

My point is - it's not Sutton, or his scheme that is the culprit.

It's really the secondary who need to make better decisions in regards to :

Where they line up in re: to the LOS (sometimes, it's okay to back up to get the angle)

The angles they take.

QUIT BITING ON PLAY FAKES.

Basically, a lot of mental errors in the 2dary shooting the whole defense in the foot.

They CAN clean that shit up...a big part of why they brought Parker back (and why we miss Berry and Sorensen so badly) is that there are communication issues on the backend of the defense...and those issues can negate a decent pass rush.

Pass rush and coverage have to be symbiotic...but if there's confusion in the secondary, or a bad angle from the snap, a good QB can take advantage of that.

A future HOF QB will ALWAYS take advantage of that.

Chris Meck
09-16-2018, 08:55 PM
The holding was bad, but the secondary is atrocious...

But those are players who HAVE executed the things being asked of them.

My point is - it's not Sutton, or his scheme that is the culprit.

It's really the secondary who need to make better decisions in regards to :

Where they line up in re: to the LOS (sometimes, it's okay to back up to get the angle)

The angles they take.

QUIT BITING ON PLAY FAKES.

Basically, a lot of mental errors in the 2dary shooting the whole defense in the foot.

They CAN clean that shit up...a big part of why they brought Parker back (and why we miss Berry and Sorensen so badly) is that there are communication issues on the backend of the defense...and those issues can negate a decent pass rush.

Pass rush and coverage have to be symbiotic...but if there's confusion in the secondary, or a bad angle from the snap, a good QB can take advantage of that.

A future HOF QB will ALWAYS take advantage of that.

Well, I don't disagree those things are happening. Just that it's a failure of coaching and/or scheme if at this point nobody knows what the fuck's going on.

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 08:59 PM
Well, I don't disagree those things are happening. Just that it's a failure of coaching and/or scheme if at this point nobody knows what the ****'s going on.

Nope, not coaching or scheme. Coaches can only do so much - when the play clock gets to 15 or something, the coaches headset gets cut off from the QB/MLB. Then it's on players to diagnose, communicate, and make the play.

Coaches stand on the sideline and hope everyone does their job the way they're supposed to...

The players know what they're supposed to do, they just don't do it.

Like they're not very good or something.

It's that simple.

RunKC
09-16-2018, 09:12 PM
You know, Sutton CAN substitute Watts in for him. That's not illegal.

Looks like Watts was on the field a lot more today.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Armani Watts got on the field today more than I realized. I&#39;ve seen him a few times now and... I&#39;m happy so far. We&#39;ll see what the all-22 says.</p>&mdash; Seth Keysor (@RealMNchiefsfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/1041509371740676096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

rabblerouser
09-16-2018, 09:49 PM
Looks like Watts was on the field a lot more today.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Armani Watts got on the field today more than I realized. I&#39;ve seen him a few times now and... I&#39;m happy so far. We&#39;ll see what the all-22 says.</p>&mdash; Seth Keysor (@RealMNchiefsfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/1041509371740676096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Hell, in that 3-2-6 alignment he'd almost have to be out there...how many DBs were active today? We only have 8...Berry didn't dress...that leaves 7.

-King-
10-07-2018, 04:38 PM
Given the difference in talent levels, Sutton is doing a better job than Wade Phillips to me this season.

Titty Meat
10-07-2018, 04:40 PM
FIRE SUTT5ON

Hammock Parties
10-07-2018, 04:40 PM
Defense continues to improve week to week.

37
27
23
14

I expect next week the pass rush tees off on Brady.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 04:41 PM
Given the difference in talent levels, Sutton is doing a better job than Wade Phillips to me this season.

Sacrilege!

chiefzilla1501
10-07-2018, 04:43 PM
I still can't get my arms around who's to blame. The defense is at its worst when we go into prevent. Usually to protect the lead. Is that Andy or Sutton? Today we did a good job staying aggressive on D all 4 quarters. What a surprise... A desperate offense makes a few mistakes when we push them around instead of sitting back.

-King-
10-07-2018, 04:44 PM
I still can't get my arms around who's to blame. The defense is at its worst when we go into prevent. Usually to protect the lead. Is that Andy or Sutton? Today we did a good job staying aggressive on D all 4 quarters. What a surprise... A desperate offense makes a few mistakes when we push them around instead of sitting back.

Hard to be aggressive without Houston, Jones and Ford.
Posted via Mobile Device

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 04:49 PM
I still can't get my arms around who's to blame. The defense is at its worst when we go into prevent. Usually to protect the lead. Is that Andy or Sutton? Today we did a good job staying aggressive on D all 4 quarters. What a surprise... A desperate offense makes a few mistakes when we push them around instead of sitting back.

They played plenty of zone. You didn't see a problem because guys made more tackles but also more importantly because the pass rushers actually made plays today.

Saw it against Denver too. When Jones or Ford gets there, the whole defense works.

It is not, and never was, a scheme problem. Guys have to make plays.

FAX
10-07-2018, 04:52 PM
Once more, I shall attempt to inject some balance into this argument.

Firstly, the first quarter of the season is essentially an extended pre-season (on account of the CBA and NFL rules). This is compounded by the fact that we had so many pre-season injuries.

Secondly, this defense is getting better. If you watch the games closely, you can see the improvement almost on a series-by-series basis.

Thirdly, we are not exactly loaded with talent in the backend.

Fourthly, Ragland is not living up to his hype, I'm afraid. He's a liability when he's forced to cover. He's one guy who's not showing improvement in that category. Sadly, he's also having trouble shedding, maintaining his gaps, and finding the ball.

Fifthly, if you don't honestly believe that our d-line and rushers aren't being held, you aren't paying attention. It's happening on passes as well as rushes. Quite a bit, too.

Sutton is not the problem. Really never has been.

FAX

chiefzilla1501
10-07-2018, 04:52 PM
Hard to be aggressive without Houston, Jones and Ford.
Posted via Mobile Device

I am saying we stayed aggressive today all 4 quarters. We didn't do that the first few weeks. Our defense didn't step off the gas today. We gave up points but we also got late turnovers.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 04:53 PM
I am saying we stayed aggressive today all 4 quarters. We didn't do that the first few weeks. Our defense didn't step off the gas today. We gave up points but we also got late turnovers.

They played plenty of off zone today, just like always. The 4 down guys won their matchups. Plain and simple.

dannybcaitlyn
10-07-2018, 04:55 PM
They played plenty of off zone today, just like always. The 4 down guys won their matchups. Plain and simple.

Did they rush 3 any?

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 04:57 PM
Did they rush 3 any?

Sure did.

penchief
10-07-2018, 05:51 PM
Defense continues to improve week to week.

37
27
23
14

I expect next week the pass rush tees off on Brady.

The defense is not good at this point, but it's not nearly as bad as being portrayed by the national media.

After five games we've given up the fewest points in the AFC West.

That said, I've always been a defensive homer and sometimes get very exasperated watching the defense get gashed or constantly give up big plays on third down.

Chris Meck
10-07-2018, 05:52 PM
They played plenty of off zone today, just like always. The 4 down guys won their matchups. Plain and simple.

Much better today- I didn't see a lot of dropping 8 but whether that's due to the Jags personnel or a change in philosophy, is up for debate. Much better tackling the first 3 quarters, no question about that.

Lucas looks to be much, much more heads up than Murray and a better tackler, takes better angles to the ballcarrier...just superior in every way.

Also, Watts looked good as well pre-injury.

So, yeah, I think I see a scheme adjustment a little bit as well as some better execution. Better job. Tough test next week.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 05:54 PM
The defense is not good at this point, but it's not nearly as bad as being portrayed by the national media.

After five games we've given up the fewest points in the AFC West.

That said, I've always been a defensive homer and sometimes get very exasperated watching the defense get gashed or constantly give up big plays on third down.

Really tough time for defensive homers, sorry.

Those days are long gone. The NFL is all about scoring now.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 05:54 PM
Much better today- I didn't see a lot of dropping 8 but whether that's due to the Jags personnel or a change in philosophy, is up for debate. Much better tackling the first 3 quarters, no question about that.

Lucas looks to be much, much more heads up than Murray and a better tackler, takes better angles to the ballcarrier...just superior in every way.

Also, Watts looked good as well pre-injury.

So, yeah, I think I see a scheme adjustment a little bit as well as some better execution. Better job. Tough test next week.

:thumb:

penchief
10-07-2018, 05:57 PM
Really tough time for defensive homers, sorry.

Those days are long gone. The NFL is all about scoring now.

Understood. I'm loving me some Patrick Mahomes, though.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 06:58 PM
Understood. I'm loving me some Patrick Mahomes, though.

There hasn't been a better time in NFL history than now to have a guy like Mahomes. The game is changing because of guys like him, not in spite of them.

Molitoth
10-07-2018, 07:01 PM
Props to the D today, either they came to play or Bortles is really bad. (I think Both)

Obviously there was a ton of yardage given up during garbage time, but that was typical of Sutton going into his prevent in the late Q3.

Mecca
10-07-2018, 07:02 PM
I get that people associate this team being good with defense and how the Vermiel year sucked cause of defense.

The league though the way it's set up now, it's nearly impossible to be great on defense. We watched the most talented defensive team in the league come in today and they certainly did not impose their will or win a game without an offense.

Those days are gone.

Bewbies
10-07-2018, 07:06 PM
The best defense in the league had absolutely no shot against the best offense.

Like it or not (I’m a defensive guy myself) the Chiefs are set up to how the league is now not how it was.

Pasta Little Brioni
10-07-2018, 07:07 PM
Seems like a third of the league throws for 350 every week...

Coogs
10-07-2018, 07:08 PM
Props to the D today, either they came to play or Bortles is really bad. (I think Both)

Obviously there was a ton of yardage given up during garbage time, but that was typical of Sutton going into his prevent in the late Q3.

I thought is was really cool when the defense got the ball back after Mahomes's first INT on the very next play. Kind of a "we got your back" moment!

Mecca
10-07-2018, 07:08 PM
Seems like a third of the league throws for 350 every week...

Yep, basically todays NFL is, you build an elite offense with an elite QB and get a defense that can make a few plays here and then then you go into a shell and make the other team take 8 minutes to score.

I'm sure you are at some point going to see teams in the top 10 in defense yards allowed that would have been last or close to last in the early 2000's.

RunKC
10-07-2018, 07:12 PM
Murray gets hurt early and the defense balls out.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT

Eleazar
10-07-2018, 07:14 PM
Bortles was just complete trash.

Ford's strip was a good defensive play, but Bortles holds the ball far too long
Jones' INT was kind of 50/50, he read the play perfectly but Bortles threw the ball right to his hands.
He banked a ball off a lineman's helmet up into the air for Nelson
Horrible pass on Lucas' interception
Laughably bad pick to Scandrick

Somebody like that really does make your defense look good, obviously. The defense was much better today, but in the category of not getting too high or too low, Bortles was their best friend.

Mecca
10-07-2018, 07:14 PM
Murray gets hurt early and the defense balls out.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT

Yea he's not very good...

Sassy Squatch
10-07-2018, 07:14 PM
Murray gets hurt early and the defense balls out.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT
Which begs the question why did it take an injury to get Murray off the field?

Pasta Little Brioni
10-07-2018, 07:15 PM
Would be a solid unit with Berry/Danielson

Mecca
10-07-2018, 07:16 PM
Which begs the question why did it take an injury to get Murray off the field?

Probably because Lucas has been on the team for a month...Sutton and Reid seem to think a guys experience in the system matters. It's probably also why you'll see Jordan Devey playing over the other 2 linemen, he's been here like 4 years.

Pasta Little Brioni
10-07-2018, 07:16 PM
Elezar, the pressure forced those pants shittings. Kind of like the Jags against shit QBs. You can't stop elite QBs these days.

Sassy Squatch
10-07-2018, 07:17 PM
Probably because Lucas has been on the team for a month...Sutton and Reid seem to think a guys experience in the system matters. It's probably also why you'll see Jordan Devey playing over the other 2 linemen, he's been here like 4 years.
Watts was better as well. We had 2 superior options in house.

Hammock Parties
10-07-2018, 07:18 PM
Seems like a third of the league throws for 350 every week...

You know who has 0 300-yard games this year?

His name rhymes with Phallus Myth

Coach
10-07-2018, 07:18 PM
Give me Watts and Lucas going forward from here. And for the love of God, get that LB #48 Smith off the field and get DOD in there.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 07:32 PM
You know who has 0 300-yard games this year?

His name rhymes with Phallus Myth

FIRST PLACE Washington Redskins. LOL

Jimmya
10-07-2018, 07:41 PM
All it took was 1bad game a OU... Defensive Coordinator Mike Stoops let go.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 07:41 PM
All it took was 1bad game a OU... Defensive Coordinator Mike Stoops let go.

College coaches aren't immune to scapegoating either...

Sassy Squatch
10-07-2018, 07:43 PM
All it took was 1bad game a OU... Defensive Coordinator Mike Stoops let go.
He picked the absolute worst game to shit the bed. Red River Showdown is srs business.

Jimmya
10-07-2018, 07:46 PM
Kind of like sh***ING the bed in 2 NFL playoff collapses?

staylor26
10-07-2018, 07:48 PM
Murray gets hurt early and the defense balls out.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT

But he played well the last two weeks

The defense was better because tackling was better and they were playing with some heart.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 07:48 PM
But he played good the last two weeks

The defense was better because tackling was better and they were playing with some heart.

Yep.

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 07:49 PM
Kind of like sh***ING the bed in 2 NFL playoff collapses?

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_cW4kucEGIgI%2FTLovOyy5rsI%2FAAAAAAAALjc%2F3aCNK-Nnt0s%2Fs1600%2Fscapegoat.jpg&f=1

Molitoth
10-07-2018, 07:49 PM
Probably because Lucas has been on the team for a month...Sutton and Reid seem to think a guys experience in the system matters. It's probably also why you'll see Jordan Devey playing over the other 2 linemen, he's been here like 4 years.

I have a high respect for Soren Petro and you should hear how he goes off on how Suttons scheme is overly complicated.... Which is why many times players are out of position.

BleedingRed
10-07-2018, 07:51 PM
Fuck Bob a little less/Chiefs fans

htismaqe
10-07-2018, 07:52 PM
I have a high respect for Soren Petro and you should hear how he goes off on how Suttons scheme is overly complicated.... Which is why many times players are out of position.

Soren also though the Chiefs would be stupid to let Alex Smith go and start Mahomes this season...

Titty Meat
10-07-2018, 07:54 PM
Entirely possible that we have a whole new secondary and like 3 other new starters it simply takes time to gel.

Pasta Little Brioni
10-07-2018, 07:56 PM
Berry alone is worth about 4 points a game....we are already outscoring teams by 10 with most of the points allowed after we are blowing teams out...

Titty Meat
10-07-2018, 08:11 PM
Berry alone is worth about 4 points a game....we are already outscoring teams by 10 with most of the points allowed after we are blowing teams out...

Assuming he hasnt lost a step and his conditioning was good sure. I think the safeties played a hell of a game too bad Watts got injured. Would love to see Lucas play more.

Pitt Gorilla
10-07-2018, 08:40 PM
Berry alone is worth about 4 points a game....we are already outscoring teams by 10 with most of the points allowed after we are blowing teams out...Berry isn’t worth shit.

MotherfuckerJones
10-07-2018, 08:41 PM
While I’ve crushed Sutton and would have moved on from him, I maintained that this D will take time to gel and gain chemistry due to the new faces at ILB and the secondary

Molitoth
10-07-2018, 09:51 PM
Soren also though the Chiefs would be stupid to let Alex Smith go and start Mahomes this season...

Really? KK was all about that, but Petro has been anti smith and pro mahomes for quite awhile I think.

Sweet Daddy Hate
10-08-2018, 01:24 AM
I can't imagine seeing the Chiefs win their second straight game to start the season behind the hottest QB in the league and RUNNING to CP to post this thread. Different strokes, I guess.

If the hottest QB in the league turns the spotlight on your shitty defense as the weakest link in the chain, and if you care about fielding a tough and aggressive defense more in line with your franchise's overall history, then yeah you might run to CP and post this thread.

Sweet Daddy Hate
10-08-2018, 01:30 AM
Defense and Jones had a good game today but you know what?

You're playing Blake fucking Bortles and you BETTER shine like a fucking star going nova.

htismaqe
10-08-2018, 08:39 AM
If the hottest QB in the league turns the spotlight on your shitty defense as the weakest link in the chain, and if you care about fielding a tough and aggressive defense more in line with your franchise's overall history, then yeah you might run to CP and post this thread.

At this point, I don't want to see anything even remotely like this franchise's overall history. :Lin:

I want to see playoff wins. This team is better suited to win in the post season than any team since Joe Montana. Even WITH this defense.

RunKC
10-08-2018, 08:46 AM
O’Daniel played 7 snaps yesterday. The most he had was 3 before that.

Looks like he’s starting to pick up the defense and get on the field as a rotational coverage backer. It’s going to help the defense a whole lot IMO.

Reggie Ragland is an atrocity in coverage.

htismaqe
10-08-2018, 08:49 AM
O’Daniel played 7 snaps yesterday. The most he had was 3 before that.

Looks like he’s starting to pick up the defense and get on the field as a rotational coverage backer. It’s going to help the defense a whole lot IMO.

Reggie Ragland is an atrocity in coverage.

Reggie Ragland is an atrocity, period. A run stopper has to be gap sound. He's terrible.

RunKC
10-08-2018, 08:56 AM
Defense and Jones had a good game today but you know what?

You're playing Blake ****ing Bortles and you BETTER shine like a ****ing star going nova.

Bortles was the result of what was really impressive in this game.

The pass rush was as good as it’s been. It really reminded me of last years Eagles game.

Ford, Houston, Jones and Bailey al had great games. That’s why I want to continuously draft pass rushers high in the draft. We sent wave after wave of pass rushers and the Jags got killed.

They rushed protection to stop Dee Ford and Chris Jones beat his 1v1 matchup to get a sack. Allen Bailey also had 3 QB hits and a sack as a result of 1v1 matchups.

That’s what makes this team dangerous.

Hammock Parties
10-08-2018, 09:02 AM
Allen Bailey has four fucking sacks.

Dude is going to get paid.

htismaqe
10-08-2018, 09:05 AM
Bortles was the result of what was really impressive in this game.

The pass rush was as good as it’s been. It really reminded me of last years Eagles game.

Ford, Houston, Jones and Bailey al had great games. That’s why I want to continuously draft pass rushers high in the draft. We sent wave after wave of pass rushers and the Jags got killed.

They rushed protection to stop Dee Ford and Chris Jones beat his 1v1 matchup to get a sack. Allen Bailey also had 3 QB hits and a sack as a result of 1v1 matchups.

That’s what makes this team dangerous.

Yep. When guys win their 1-on-1 matchups, this defense profits. It all starts up front and yesterday, they were superb. The got in Bortles' head early and he pooped himself.

htismaqe
10-08-2018, 09:06 AM
Allen Bailey has four fucking sacks.

Dude is going to get paid.

He's been consistently winning his matchups. His sack against Pittsburgh was a 3-man rush. He has 1 sack in each of the last 4 games.

ModSocks
10-08-2018, 09:07 AM
Reggie Ragland is an atrocity, period. A run stopper has to be gap sound. He's terrible.

What's funny is that Ragland was being pimped around here as a great get by Veach.

Meanwhile, it's Cam Erving that's looking like the great up pick and Ragland doesn't look like a guy worth a 5th.

Mecca
10-08-2018, 09:09 AM
Ragland has to be hurt I can't think a guy who was fine last year has regressed that much.

The Franchise
10-08-2018, 09:11 AM
Ragland has to be hurt I can't think a guy who was fine last year has regressed that much.

This. He’s accounted for a TD every game.

The Franchise
10-08-2018, 09:13 AM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chiefs&#39; defensive snaps vs. Jacksonville Jaguars, Week 5 <a href="https://t.co/oauh0NAmry">pic.twitter.com/oauh0NAmry</a></p>&mdash; Arrowhead Pride (@ArrowheadPride) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArrowheadPride/status/1049278042647027712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ragland is slowly losing all of his snaps.

O.city
10-08-2018, 09:14 AM
Ragland can't run. He's a 2 down LB at best. Hell, he can't even really do that very well at this point.

The Chiefs know it too. Look at his snap counts.

htismaqe
10-08-2018, 09:19 AM
Those snaps need to start going to DOD more. Terrance Smith is another disappointment.