We’ve got to get Eric Murray off the field

[RunKC]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Still seeing too many snaps like this, guys running free in a deep zone that SHOULD be occupied. I continue to be uncomfortable with Eric Murray&#39;s awareness when asked to play zone. <a href="https://t.co/dck7kreS4K">pic.twitter.com/dck7kreS4K</a></p>&mdash; Seth Keysor (@RealMNchiefsfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/1042816692253016064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Everybody pretty much did their job here in the back end except Murray. This defense looks so much worse because of him. The guy just doesn’t have a good read on coverage.

It sucks that we are pressed to play him bc we are forced too due to Sorenson and Berry being hurt.

FWIW Armani Watts played 16 defensive snaps in the Steelers game as opposed to 3 in LA. I think he’s coming up to speed.

Only a matter of time until Murray is on the bench and we look better.

[O.city]

If he's playing the robber, that's on Nelson

[saphojunkie]

Yeah he has really busted. This upcoming draft likely needs at least two secondary players in the first four picks.

[Best22]

But...but...Eric Berry won't make any difference.

ROFL

[O.city]

Nelson carries his man to far inside.

If they're playing cover 3, that's on Nelson.

[Simply Red]

But...but...Eric Berry won't make any difference.

ROFL

Where was this said?

[htismaqe]

If he's playing the robber, that's on Nelson

Murray wasn't deep enough. He came up too far. Zones are designed like Venn diagrams. There shouldn't be that big of a gap behind him.

[htismaqe]

Nelson carries his man to far inside.

If they're playing cover 3, that's on Nelson.

Not true. Murray ended up in Hitchens' zone. Murray is too shallow.

[The Franchise]

Just start Watts. I’d rather deal with rookie mistakes over mistakes because his awareness sucks.

[Jewish Rabbi]

I’ll just leave this here, do with it what you may.


http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=309966

[htismaqe]

I’ll just leave this here, do with it what you may.


http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=309966

Ouch, that's gotta sting...

[Pitt Gorilla]

The other safety did his job. So, there's that.

[Sassy Squatch]

You could've put him completely whiffing the sack while running untouched and it would've been just as effective an argument.

[RunKC]

I genuinely feel bad for Murray. The guy was a man corner in college, never played safety before and Dorsey drafts him to be a goddamn safety.

Quit drafting these guys who have to learn new positions.

IF YOU WANT A SAFETY DRAFT A GODDAMN SAFETY. ****

[O.city]

Murray wasn't deep enough. He came up too far. Zones are designed like Venn diagrams. There shouldn't be that big of a gap behind him.

Not necessarily.

If he's the robber, he's not having the deep middle.

[Best22]

We passed on Jessie Bates for Breeland Speaks

:facepalm:

[O.city]

The ball is completed in the zone Nelson left.

[Reerun_KC]

But...but...Eric Berry won't make any difference.

ROFL

Actually he’s not. Didn’t last year. So far this year he is making zero difference.

[O.city]

Looks to me like Hitchens dropped into Murray's zone, Parker bit up and Nelson left his zone.

Of course I have no clue what was supposed to happen though.

[wazu]

Looks to me like Hitchens dropped into Murray's zone, Parker bit up and Nelson left his zone.

Of course I have no clue what was supposed to happen though.

I don’t think they do either.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

We'll have Berry back for Denver and sorenson will be back game 10 and we'll be hitting full stride before playoffs and Murray can watch from the bench

[Reerun_KC]

We'll have Berry back for Denver and sorenson will be back game 10 and we'll be hitting full stride before playoffs and Murray can watch from the bench

As long as hea ready for when Berry gets hurt again.

[htismaqe]

Looks to me like Hitchens dropped into Murray's zone, Parker bit up and Nelson left his zone.

Of course I have no clue what was supposed to happen though.

So it's more plausible that Murray did what he was supposed to but THREE other guys were wrong?

[KChiefs1]

I’ll just leave this here, do with it what you may.


http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=309966



BossChief just went down in my poster rankings.

[Danguardace]

I would say this is Nelson and Parker definitely zone by the way he opens his hips inside. He probably sees that Parker is occupied/not deep enough and decides to stay with his man.

[KChiefs1]

You could've put him completely whiffing the sack while running untouched and it would've been just as effective an argument.



I about threw something at the tv. Pathetic

[FAX]

I don’t think they do either.

And that ends the debate.

FAX

[Best22]

Actually he’s not. Didn’t last year. So far this year he is making zero difference.

Assuming he comes back he's automatically better than Murray, which raises our floor, thus making us a better team

[O.city]

So it's more plausible that Murray did what he was supposed to but THREE other guys were wrong?

Look at what the rest of the defense is doing.

Is Nelson the only guy playing man in the secondary?

It looks to me like they all have some blame, but to put it all of Murray there is wrong.

[TLO]

I about threw something at the tv. Pathetic

To be fair, Big Ben does that to players a lot more talented than Murray.

That was embarrassing though.

[htismaqe]

Look at what the rest of the defense is doing.

Is Nelson the only guy playing man in the secondary?

It looks to me like they all have some blame, but to put it all of Murray there is wrong.

It looks to me like Nelson noticed that his man would be running free if he released him into that zone and decided to try and cover Murray's mistake.

[TLO]

I genuinely feel bad for Murray. The guy was a man corner in college, never played safety before and Dorsey drafts him to be a goddamn safety.

Quit drafting these guys who have to learn new positions.

IF YOU WANT A SAFETY DRAFT A GODDAMN SAFETY. ****

Way to go Carl!

[O.city]

It looks to me like Nelson noticed that his man would be running free if he released him into that zone and decided to try and cover Murray's mistake.

That's not how you play zone effectively though and I doubt he can see that that fast.

Maybe it's supposed to be cover 2 and Murray just had the thing wrong. I dunno.

But from the movements they showed, Nelson and Parker played it wrong if it's cover 3.

[Sassy Squatch]

To be fair, Big Ben does that to players a lot more talented than Murray.

That was embarrassing though.
Not to that level. He swatted him away like a fly. Didn't even break out of a weak arm tackle.

[htismaqe]

That's not how you play zone effectively.

Exactly what I've been saying in every "FIRE SUTTON" thread for 3 weeks!

[O.city]

Exactly what I've been saying in every "FIRE SUTTON" thread for 3 weeks!

It's also why I was getting BBQ'd in the TC thread for saying TC and such mattered.

It's shit like this. You need time and reps together.

[O.city]

IF Murray is the robber/hole defender there, he's supposed to get under that route.

This is also why it's hard to say much about anyone here because we as fans have no clue who was supposed to do what.

[Mecca]

We passed on Jessie Bates for Breeland Speaks

:facepalm:

Justin Reid also....

Murray and Nelson was basically straight up man CBs and now we have Murray trying to play safety and he just looks lost doing it, and Nelson looks horrid in zone also...

This team is going to have to move on from so many guys because they frankly don't have dudes to do what needs to be done.

But really you can't tell me that Eric Murray is their best option out there, his football IQ sucks balls because he is never where he is supposed to be.

[Eleazar]

IF Murray is the robber/hole defender there, he's supposed to get under that route.

This is also why it's hard to say much about anyone here because we as fans have no clue who was supposed to do what.

Well, maybe, but this is the moment the throw begins:

https://i.imgur.com/CuMFIz7.jpg

It's hard to imagine this is what the play is designed to look like.

No defense is really designed for the QB to be able to make a sandwich and take a nap before throwing, but still...

[FAX]

Play Watts.

(I have no idea what the responsibilities were on that play, so I don't know how anyone can legitimately call out any single player.)

But, if we're going to get burned anyhow, give Watts the reps and game experience.

I also know full well that's a stupid thing to say since I have no clue how he's doing in practice. But I'm doubling down.

Play Watts. He's fast, nimble, and has instincts. Our dear friend Eric doesn't have that right now.

FAX

[Sassy Squatch]

Justin Reid also....

Murray and Nelson was basically straight up man CBs and now we have Murray trying to play safety and he just looks lost doing it, and Nelson looks horrid in zone also...

This team is going to have to move on from so many guys because they frankly don't have dudes to do what needs to be done.

But really you can't tell me that Eric Murray is their best option out there, his football IQ sucks balls because he is never where he is supposed to be.
Watts needs to at least be given a chance. Just because he's a rookie doesn't mean he's incompetent. He might not be 100% up to speed but Murray is and he still sucks absolute shit anyway.

[htismaqe]

(I have no idea what the responsibilities were on that play, so I don't know how anyone can legitimately call out any single player.)


Because we have context.

We have something like 110 passes defended on the season. Out of the guys that COULD have been out of position on that play (Parker, Murray, Hitchens, and Nelson) only one of them has repeatedly, nearly every play, been out of position.

[O.city]

Well, maybe, but this is the moment the throw begins:

https://i.imgur.com/CuMFIz7.jpg

It's hard to imagine this is what the play is designed to look like.

No defense is really designed for the QB to be able to make a sandwich and take a nap before throwing, but still...

If its cover 3 and Murray is the SS, where is he supposed to be?

[FAX]

Because we have context.

We have something like 110 passes defended on the season. Out of the guys that COULD have been out of position on that play (Parker, Murray, Hitchens, and Nelson) only one of them has repeatedly, nearly every play, been out of position.

That sounds like "hindsight" to me, dude. Maybe even close to 100%.

And remember this, my friend; legion are the high school science labs that have been blown to hell and gone due to extrapolation.

FAX

[Eleazar]

If its cover 3 and Murray is the SS, where is he supposed to be?

I was agreeing with your comment that we don't know who's supposed to be doing what, I was just commenting that it's hard to believe that where he should be is right next to Nelson (or whomever that is) doing nothing, allowing James to pass behind him to an area no one is occupying. It looks for all the world like there was supposed to be an exchange there and Murray just flubbed it.

[htismaqe]

That sounds like "hindsight" to me, dude. Maybe even close to 100%.

And remember this, my friend; legion are the high school science labs that have been blown to hell and gone due to extrapolation.

FAX

I'm not a trained scientist, I'm a trained historian. :D

[Mecca]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know where you are suppose to be a zone, matter of fact a safety or a DB in general really should be able to understand that within a few days of being on the team.

This isn't some exotic zone that is hard to get, this is something every team does.

[htismaqe]

If its cover 3 and Murray is the SS, where is he supposed to be?

If they're in cover 3, he's supposed to be in the middle of the field close to the goal line, where Nelson ends up because Nelson should have been covering the wide side of the field but broke off because he saw Murray screwing up...

[O.city]

If they're in cover 3, he's supposed to be in the middle of the field close to the goal line, where Nelson ends up because Nelson should have been covering the wide side of the field but broke off because he saw Murray screwing up...

If he's the strong safety, he's the hole defender.

Parker is supposed to be in the MOF if he's the FS.

The ball is on the Left Hash

[O.city]

I was agreeing with your comment that we don't know who's supposed to be doing what, I was just commenting that it's hard to believe that where he should be is right next to Nelson (or whomever that is) doing nothing, allowing James to pass behind him to an area no one is occupying. It looks for all the world like there was supposed to be an exchange there and Murray just flubbed it.

(Looks around for Sorter)

Based on my understanding of it, if he's the hole defender, he's supposed to be under the deep in and over the under routes making it where the QB has to throw over him and under the deep 3rd players.

I have no clue

[htismaqe]

If he's the strong safety, he's the hole defender.

Parker is supposed to be in the MOF if he's the FS.

Parker and whoever is outside of Hitchens on the short side have the short flat zones. Watch the play again. It's 3 deep cover.

Hitchens has the middle zone. The 2 DBs on his outside (looks like Parker but I can't tell who the other is) rotate to the flats into their zones. The outside corners have the deep outside zones. The deep middle is wide open for one reason only...

Murray is in the wrong place.

[htismaqe]

From watching the play, they appear to be in dime with Parker in one of the up slots. He's not the FS on this play, Murray actually is.

[O.city]

Parker and whoever is outside of Hitchens on the short side have the short flat zones. Watch the play again. It's 3 deep cover.

Hitchens has the middle zone. The 2 DBs on his outside (looks like Parker but I can't tell who the other is) rotate to the flats into their zones. The outside corners have the deep outside zones. The deep middle is wide open for one reason only...

Murray is in the wrong place.

If it's cover 3, Parker is supposed to be in the deep middle, he shades to the strong side. The ball is on the left hash to start.

If Parker is the FS that is. I dunno if they label it or play strong vs weak based on the field or alignment.

[O.city]

From watching the play, they appear to be in dime with Parker in one of the up slots. He's not the FS on this play, Murray actually is.

If he's on one of the slot wr's, why is he immediately dropping out?

[O.city]

The bigger issue with Murray is that he just stands there flat ass footed.

[MahiMike]

You could've put him completely whiffing the sack while running untouched and it would've been just as effective an argument.

I warned him last week on this. Big Ben is named aptly. Don't even try to sack him, you'll just bounce off. Hopefully we learn this prior to the playoffs.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

But...but...Eric Berry won't make any difference.

ROFL

Sure he will, for the one half he plays this year.

[mcaj22]

Justin Reid also....

Murray and Nelson was basically straight up man CBs and now we have Murray trying to play safety and he just looks lost doing it, and Nelson looks horrid in zone also...

This team is going to have to move on from so many guys because they frankly don't have dudes to do what needs to be done.

But really you can't tell me that Eric Murray is their best option out there, his football IQ sucks balls because he is never where he is supposed to be.

The problem I have with this is the Chiefs basically said at the end of last season it's the players not the scheme. They put their chips on backing Sutton, which is fine. Now you have all these new players and still the same problems if not worse. So are they going to honestly double down on the scheme/Sutton and blame the players again for the second season in a row. Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice...

[O.city]

Well, to be fair, they're playing with 2 safeties they probably didn't think would be playing.

But that's the NFL.

[O.city]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Leading up until Murray has to turn and run<br><br>- C3 &amp; assignments<br>- Murray seeing the hard square cut (sitting in the chair) meaning comeback/spot. ILB&#39;s zone<br>- The most &quot;green&quot; on the field is in front of Murray&#39;s zone as defenders funnel to it<br>- Murray looks back the spot route <a href="https://t.co/oRl1KpkHUA">pic.twitter.com/oRl1KpkHUA</a></p>&mdash; Matt Lane (@ChiefinCarolina) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChiefinCarolina/status/1042846985471045640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This guy lays it out better than I did.
Maybe we're both wrong?

[Mecca]

The problem I have with this is the Chiefs basically said at the end of last season it's the players not the scheme. They put their chips on backing Sutton, which is fine. No you have all these new players and still the same problems if not worse. So are they going to honestly double down on the scheme/Sutton and blame the players again for the second season in a row. Fool me once shame on me, foo me twice...

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.

[htismaqe]

The problem I have with this is the Chiefs basically said at the end of last season it's the players not the scheme. They put their chips on backing Sutton, which is fine. No you have all these new players and still the same problems if not worse. So are they going to honestly double down on the scheme/Sutton and blame the players again for the second season in a row. Fool me once shame on me, foo me twice...

If the players are the problem, why would they blame Sutton?

Why not actually, you know, focus on the actual cause instead of looking to throw around blame?

They committed to the defense in the draft and only 1 of those guys is getting snaps. For the most part, he's been somewhere between ineffective and bad.

[staylor26]

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.

They did it to beat Pittsburgh.

The good thing is, I think it’ll be big against the Jags too.

[Sassy Squatch]

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.
He had to trade away an All Pro CB and our 1st round pick was gone. Nice way to try to start fixing the secondary. Went out intent on getting Kyle Fuller and Tyrann Mathieu in FA. Didn't work out. The only thing I can say he really fucked up on was Speaks instead of a CB or S in round 2.

[Mecca]

They did it to beat Pittsburgh.

The good thing is, I think it’ll be big against the Jags too.

Jacksonville is actually a better team without Fournette, how funny is that. When he plays they pass like so little that Bortles has no rhythm and then is worse than he actually is.

[Mecca]

He had to trade away an All Pro CB and our 1st round pick was gone. Nice way to try to start fixing the secondary. Went out intent on getting Kyle Fuller and Tyrann Mathieu in FA. Didn't work out. The only thing I can say he really fucked up on was Speaks instead of a CB or S in round 2.

It just makes no sense how they did nothing for the back end meanwhile 2 guys that went right in front of Speaks in Harold Landry and Josh Jackson are already performing very well.

[Pitt Gorilla]

He had to trade away an All Pro CB and our 1st round pick was gone. Nice way to try to start fixing the secondary. Went out intent on getting Kyle Fuller and Tyrann Mathieu in FA. Didn't work out. The only thing I can say he really ****ed up on was Speaks instead of a CB or S in round 2.He didn't "have" to do anything. He put himself in that hole and did little to correct it.

[Pitt Gorilla]

It just makes no sense how they did nothing for the back end meanwhile 2 guys that went right in front of Speaks in Harold Landry and Josh Jackson are already performing very well.Josh Jackson would have been outstanding.

[Sassy Squatch]

He didn't "have" to do anything. He put himself in that hole and did little to correct it.
Dude. Do you honestly think Veach could've told both Hunt and Reid "No, I'm not trading Peters" and they would've just went "OK" and that's it? Pretty obvious his trade had nothing to do with his talents.

[O.city]

If the players are the problem, why would they blame Sutton?

Why not actually, you know, focus on the actual cause instead of looking to throw around blame?

They committed to the defense in the draft and only 1 of those guys is getting snaps. For the most part, he's been somewhere between ineffective and bad.

I'm hopeful they do what they've done some in the past and start playing some of these young guys more as the year goes on.

[mcaj22]

Well, to be fair, they're playing with 2 safeties they probably didn't think would be playing.

But that's the NFL.

they couldnt predict the Sorensen injury but they certainly could have done better at depth/insurance for Berry

[O.city]

I'd love to still have Peters, but it is what it is.

If Andy was indeed ready to cut him after the Jet game, it was all over.

[O.city]

they couldnt predict the Sorensen injury but they certainly could have done better at depth/insurance for Berry

That's for sure.

But they did bring in Golden who did whatever the hell happened there and they Watts.

[mcaj22]

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.

I dont disagree on them having a talent problem. My issue is them doubling down on.the scheme/defensive coordinator two years in a row and saying its the talent like a broken record. If thats the route we all expect them to go in.

[staylor26]

Jacksonville is actually a better team without Fournette, how funny is that. When he plays they pass like so little that Bortles has no rhythm and then is worse than he actually is.

I agree, but I like actually like the matchup either way against our D. That’s partly because it’s in Arrowhead also.

[mcaj22]

That's for sure.

But they did bring in Golden who did whatever the hell happened there and they Watts.

there were way better safeties sitting at below market value all offseason. They for some reason werent interested.

[O.city]

there were way better safeties sitting at below market value all offseason. They for some reason werent interested.

I argued recently that there are still safeties on the market for cheap that would be better than Murray but apparently I'm an idiot.

[htismaqe]

He didn't "have" to do anything. He put himself in that hole and did little to correct it.

A lot of people content Clark made him trade Peters.

[kgrund]

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.

I disagree. Veach and Andy doubled down on Pat and O. Felt very strongly they could win shoot outs, but having the time of possession dominated by the other team could be an issue. How teams primarily dominate and control the clock is in the running game. You had to try to take the running game of the opponent out of the equation by fixing the run D first IMO.

[htismaqe]

I dont disagree on them having a talent problem. My issue is them doubling down on.the scheme/defensive coordinator two years in a row and saying its the talent like a broken record. If thats the route we all expect them to go in.

Again, if it actually IS the talent, why would they blame something other than the actual cause? It may sound like a broken record but a broken record is indeed broken.

[Mecca]

I disagree. Veach and Andy doubled down on Pat and O. Felt very strongly they could win shoot outs, but having the time of possession dominated by the other team could be an issue. How teams primarily dominate and control the clock is in the running game. You had to try to take the running game of the opponent out of the equation by fixing the run D first IMO.

If you score 30+ points no one is going to hand off though....matter of fact if you are scoring like that you'd be thrilled if they'd hand off, let them take 8 minutes to score.

The running game is being further and further less used in todays league, who is a real running team? All of the top flight teams are passing teams.

[Mecca]

Again, if it actually IS the talent, why would they blame something other than the actual cause? It may sound like a broken record but a broken record is indeed broken.

To blame talent and do nothing about said talent is a problem though.

[mcaj22]

Again, if it actually IS the talent, why would they blame something other than the actual cause? It may sound like a broken record but a broken record is indeed broken.

you dont get to use the same get out of jail free card in the NFL two seasons in a row. Your local media and fanbase wont buy into it unless youre a complete homer.

[staylor26]

To blame talent and do nothing about said talent is a problem though.

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?

[htismaqe]

To blame talent and do nothing about said talent is a problem though.

Of course it is, but trying to sell a lie to save face isn't a good thing to do either.

[htismaqe]

you dont get to use the same get out of jail free card in the NFL two seasons in a row. Your local media and fanbase wont buy into it unless youre a complete homer.

The local media and fanbase won't buy a straight up lie, either.

[htismaqe]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

Because Mahomes is WAY better than we thought he'd be at this point.

[staylor26]

Because Mahomes is WAY better than we thought he'd be at this point.

That’s nonsensical.

[Sassy Squatch]

To blame talent and do nothing about said talent is a problem though.
You've got your 3rd and 4th rounders sitting on the bench for no reason except they're rookies. Same shit with Zombo and Kpassagnon last year.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?Did we not have the juice or the desire to move up for a guy like Josh Jackson?

[Mecca]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?

In a vacuum those are not bad moves, but when you realize after dropping Peters this team needed at least 1 if not 2 more CB's that were at the very least passable players was known by everyone. Even with Eric Berry this team has a safety hole.

No person here is going to convince me that Breeland Speaks was a pressing need and they couldn't have filled that spot with a somewhat productive vet on the cheap.

[Mecca]

You've got your 3rd and 4th rounders sitting on the bench for no reason except they're rookies. Same shit with Zombo and Kpassagnon last year.

Kpass still doesn't play, Speaks is getting more snaps than him.

[mcaj22]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?

a two year project with the cap they are spending?! hahaha they are not in a rebuild theres no such thing as a project when youre spending the kind of money the Chiefs are

[OKchiefs]

Unfortunately the talent problem isn't going away. We MAYBE have one playmaker or above average talent at each level of the defense. Chris Jones, Anthony Hitchens, and MAYBE Kendall Fuller. They're going to have to get rid of Houston in the offseason and get Berry to agree to a pay cut to help sign some solid free agents. At least 3 of our first 4 draft picks need to be on defense, but they have to find a way to quit drafting complete shit on defense. The 2019 draft needs to be a home run. It's too early to call the 2018 draft a strikeout (continuing to use the baseball analogy), but at best it's a bunt single. This defense is still probably several years away from returning to respectability.

Also, Bob Sutton may get too much blame, but he's a dinosaur and the game has passed him by. We need a better coordinator before too long.

[htismaqe]

That’s nonsensical.

Well, it's not rational but it is true.

People's expectations change all the time in reaction to changes in events.

Everybody assumed Mahomes would have growing pains to go along with the defense' growing pains, so this year was essentially a lost year.

With Mahomes coming out of the gates looking like a polished vet, the expectations change (again, whether that's rational or not) because suddenly only one unit needs time.

Not saying it's RIGHT, just saying that's exactly what is going on.

[htismaqe]

Did we not have the juice or the desire to move up for a guy like Josh Jackson?

We had the desire to move up for Speaks, right?

So I'd have to say all signs point to "desire".

[Mecca]

Question why could they pluck some dudes at the end of camp out of the cuts and plug and play them yet now somehow the defense is to complicated for new players?

[staylor26]

Well, it's not rational but it is true.

People's expectations change all the time in reaction to changes in events.

Everybody assumed Mahomes would have growing pains to go along with the defense' growing pains, so this year was essentially a lost year.

With Mahomes coming out of the gates looking like a polished vet, the expectations change (again, whether that's rational or not) because suddenly only one unit needs time.

Not saying it's RIGHT, just saying that's exactly what is going on.

Oh I definitely agree that’s why.

[OKchiefs]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?

It's more than a 2 year project. Short of doing what L.A. did and selling out for a dominant defense, the 2019 KC Chiefs will probably still have a bottom 10 defense. We don't have a single quality pass rusher and we're going nowhere until that changes.

[saphojunkie]

They do have a talent problem and Veach deserves a lot of criticism for doing nothing about this secondary.

Actually what they did was ass backwards, they go all front 7 for run D..when you score 30 points a game no one is going to be running much on you.

What does that mean, they go all front seven?

Armani Watts, Tremon Smith, and to a certain extent DOD.

[htismaqe]

Unfortunately the talent problem isn't going away. We MAYBE have one playmaker or above average talent at each level of the defense. Chris Jones, Anthony Hitchens, and MAYBE Kendall Fuller. They're going to have to get rid of Houston in the offseason and get Berry to agree to a pay cut to help sign some solid free agents. At least 3 of our first 4 draft picks need to be on defense, but they have to find a way to quit drafting complete shit on defense. The 2019 draft needs to be a home run. It's too early to call the 2018 draft a strikeout (continuing to use the baseball analogy), but at best it's a bunt single. This defense is still probably several years away from returning to respectability.

Also, Bob Sutton may get too much blame, but he's a dinosaur and the game has passed him by. We need a better coordinator before too long.

Can't strongly disagree with any of this.

[staylor26]

a two year project with the cap they are spending?! hahaha they are not in a rebuild theres no such thing as a project when youre spending the kind of money the Chiefs are

Well if you thought they could fix this D in one offseason with what they had to work with I have to really question your intelligence.

[Mecca]

What does that mean, they go all front seven?

Armani Watts, Tremon Smith, and to a certain extent DOD.

They spent big money on Hitchens and didn't draft a secondary player until the 4th round...

Kendall Fuller even if Marcus Peters was still here, there would be some secondary issues. They basically replaced Peters with a guy who isn't as good and somehow thought they were suppose to get better back there?

[saphojunkie]

Because Mahomes is WAY better than we thought he'd be at this point.

What’s with this we bullshit

[Pitt Gorilla]

It's more than a 2 year project. Short of doing what L.A. did and selling out for a dominant defense, the 2019 KC Chiefs will probably still have a bottom 10 defense. We don't have a single quality pass rusher and we're going nowhere until that changes.A dominant defense would look pretty good right now.

[staylor26]

They spent big money on Hitchens and didn't draft a secondary player until the 4th round...

Kendall Fuller even if Marcus Peters was still here, there would be some secondary issues. They basically replaced Peters with a guy who isn't as good and somehow thought they were suppose to get better back there?

Well they obviously were expecting the return of Berry also. Can’t forget that, but I see your point.

I just don’t think we’ve even had enough time to fully evaluate this. We’re 2 games in and we just played two of the top 5 offenses in the NFL on the road in the heat with a big lead and playing a lot of snaps.

It’s way to soon to tell the story of the 2018 Chiefs defense.

[Pitt Gorilla]

We had the desire to move up for Speaks, right?

So I'd have to say all signs point to "desire".Then, that's on Veach. If you trade away a talent like Peters, you better get a guy to fill that void.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib have allowed 37 yards *combined* through 2 weeks<br><br>85 different CBs have allowed more than that on their own</p>&mdash; Mike Renner (@PFF_Mike) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_Mike/status/1041731978003927042?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 17, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Mecca]

Well they obviously were expecting the return of Berry also. Can’t forget that, but I see your point.

I just don’t think we’ve even had enough time to fully evaluate this. We’re 2 games in and we just played two of the top 5 offenses in the NFL on the road with a huge lead on the road.

It’s way to soon to tell the story of the 2018 Chiefs defense.

I get that but you have to understand frustration when you see Green Bay starting 2 rookie CB's and both of them playing well, meanwhile this team is basically not playing any rookies other than a handful of Breeland Speaks snaps...Kpass still isn't playing...

For as fucking horrid as this defense is I don't understand how these guys can't get any snaps. When Reid got here, Ron Parker and Marcus Cooper got starter snaps almost immediately when they were signed out of other teams cuts..but now all of the sudden draft picks have no room to play on a horrible unit?

It's annoyingly frustrating.

At this point Eric Berry is a bigfoot, I'll believe he exists when he's actually on the field.

[staylor26]

I get that but you have to understand frustration when you see Green Bay starting 2 rookie CB's and both of them playing well, meanwhile this team is basically not playing any rookies other than a handful of Breeland Speaks snaps...Kpass still isn't playing...

For as ****ing horrid as this defense is I don't understand how these guys can't get any snaps. When Reid got here, Ron Parker and Marcus Cooper got starter snaps almost immediately when they were signed out of other teams cuts..but now all of the sudden draft picks have no room to play on a horrible unit?

It's annoyingly frustrating.

I get it.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I get that but you have to understand frustration when you see Green Bay starting 2 rookie CB's and both of them playing well, meanwhile this team is basically not playing any rookies other than a handful of Breeland Speaks snaps...Kpass still isn't playing...

For as ****ing horrid as this defense is I don't understand how these guys can't get any snaps. When Reid got here, Ron Parker and Marcus Cooper got starter snaps almost immediately when they were signed out of other teams cuts..but now all of the sudden draft picks have no room to play on a horrible unit?

It's annoyingly frustrating.

At this point Eric Berry is a bigfoot, I'll believe he exists when he's actually on the field.Peters played, but he was REALLY, REALLY ****ing good.

[htismaqe]

A dominant defense would look pretty good right now.

A dominant defense with this team would be an all-time historic team. That wasn't ever going to happen.

[Mecca]

Peters played, but he was REALLY, REALLY ****ing good.

Yea, defensive players are suppose to be able to get on the field relatively quickly, it's not an offensive playbook.

Other than Peters who saw a ton of snaps early on? Jones did after Devito got hurt...and out of the last 3 drafts I can't think of any who really play much.

[saphojunkie]

They spent big money on Hitchens and didn't draft a secondary player until the 4th round...

Kendall Fuller even if Marcus Peters was still here, there would be some secondary issues. They basically replaced Peters with a guy who isn't as good and somehow thought they were suppose to get better back there?

I am higher on fuller than others are, I guess. I also feel like everyone talks about how good peters was like the tackling wasn’t a huge problem. It was a huge problem.

Additionally, Berry was supposed to be an improvement to the secondary. That’s the biggest problem right now back there, and then followed by a need for more sacks.

I personally don’t think this defense is as far off as it seems. If we can get a pass rusher, a safety, and a corner in the draft, we should also have cap space to sign a veteran DB. This can be fixed fast, given that Bailey comes off the books.

I would like to see them restructure Houston, given that he’s $21M to keep and $7.5 M to cut next year. Free up some space to give him legit help on the other side. Additionally, Ford’s entire cap number comes off the books. We have to extend Hill, and that will be a huge payday but worth it. Adding a vet pass rusher or CB on a three year deal can really lighten be load for the draft.

[RunKC]

I don’t think it’s fair to say they did “nothing” though.

Hitchens, Williams, Fuller were all 3 good additions. And they went all in on defense in the draft. It’s hard to find guys that have an immediate impact without a 1st and picking late though.

What I don’t understand is, it really seemed like most were in agreement that the defense was a two year project. I honestly don’t know why a lot of people forgot that.

When did they say that it was the talent AND all they needed is one year to fix it?

Xavier Williams, Anthony Hitchens and Kendall Fuller looked good on Sunday. **** man Orlando Scandrick looked awesome on Sunday too. Derrick Nnandi has looked good.

Not every addition will look good right off the bat (Speaks) but so far there’s been a good start from Veach.

Berry is coming back soon. Sorenson is coming back soon. Tremon Smith played some dime snaps on Sunday. Watts played 13 more snaps this week. O’Daniel played a 2nd half 3rd down snap Sunday. Young guys are already starting to play more.

This defense is going to get better as the year goes on.

[Sassy Squatch]

I am higher on fuller than others are, I guess. I also feel like everyone talks about how good peters was like the tackling wasn’t a huge problem. It was a huge problem.

Additionally, Berry was supposed to be an improvement to the secondary. That’s the biggest problem right now back there, and then followed by a need for more sacks.

I personally don’t think this defense is as far off as it seems. If we can get a pass rusher, a safety, and a corner in the draft, we should also have cap space to sign a veteran DB. This can be fixed fast, given that Bailey comes off the books.

I would like to see them restructure Houston, given that he’s $21M to keep and $7.5 M to cut next year. Free up some space to give him legit help on the other side. Additionally, Ford’s entire cap number comes off the books. We have to extend Hill, and that will be a huge payday but worth it. Adding a vet pass rusher or CB on a three year deal can really lighten be load for the draft.
I hope you meant pay cut when you said restructure.

[mcaj22]

Well if you thought they could fix this D in one offseason with what they had to work with I have to really question your intelligence.

you can insult my intelligence all you want but the defense has been in a downhil progression ever since this regime turned it around in 2013... ahem one offseason. It was this teams strength for at least a good 4 years, payers got older, injuries happen, etc but this defense wasnt always this bad. They brought it respectability in 2013 atter one offseasom they can certainly do it again.

[staylor26]

Xavier Williams, Anthony Hitchens and Kendall Fuller looked good on Sunday. **** man Orlando Scandrick looked awesome on Sunday too. Derrick Nnandi has looked good.

Not every addition will look good right off the bat (Speaks) but so far there’s been a good start from Veach.

Berry is coming back soon. Sorenson is coming back soon. Tremon Smith played some dime snaps on Sunday. Watts played 13 more snaps this week. O’Daniel played a 2nd half 3rd down snap Sunday. Young guys are already starting to play more.

This defense is going to get better as the year goes on.

I just posted this in another thread, but Scandrick has a better PFF grade than Trumaine Johnson, Malcolm Butler, and Kyle Fuller

LMAO

So many people complaining that we didn’t spend money on a corner instead of Watkins

[Pitt Gorilla]

I am higher on fuller than others are, I guess. I also feel like everyone talks about how good peters was like the tackling wasn’t a huge problem. It was a huge problem.

Additionally, Berry was supposed to be an improvement to the secondary. That’s the biggest problem right now back there, and then followed by a need for more sacks.

I personally don’t think this defense is as far off as it seems. If we can get a pass rusher, a safety, and a corner in the draft, we should also have cap space to sign a veteran DB. This can be fixed fast, given that Bailey comes off the books.

I would like to see them restructure Houston, given that he’s $21M to keep and $7.5 M to cut next year. Free up some space to give him legit help on the other side. Additionally, Ford’s entire cap number comes off the books. We have to extend Hill, and that will be a huge payday but worth it. Adding a vet pass rusher or CB on a three year deal can really lighten be load for the draft.Ford has been one of best pass rushers this season. How are you replacing him in this scenario?

[saphojunkie]

I hope you meant pay cut when you said restructure.

I would extend him two years, converting his salary this year to a signing bonus that can be amortized, while dramatically lowering his base salary and cap number for the next four seasons, allowing us to get out from under it later.

[Pitt Gorilla]

I just posted this in another thread, but Scandrick has a better PFF grade than Trumaine Johnson, Malcolm Butler, and Kyle Fuller

LMAO

So many people complaining that we didn’t spend money on a corner instead of WatkinsI really liked his play last week. If he keeps that up, he's been a brilliant find by Veach.

[staylor26]

I really liked his play last week. If he keeps that up, he's been a brilliant find by Veach.

Dude was getting it done against a variety of really good receivers including the best in the game.

[htismaqe]

My only problem with Fuller right now is that he isn't playing up to my expectations, or at least he didn't in the LAC game. One of his "things" was supposed to be open field tackling and he whiffed a couple of times REALLY bad but he was better against Pitt at least.


I am higher on fuller than others are, I guess. I also feel like everyone talks about how good peters was like the tackling wasn’t a huge problem. It was a huge problem.

Additionally, Berry was supposed to be an improvement to the secondary. That’s the biggest problem right now back there, and then followed by a need for more sacks.

I personally don’t think this defense is as far off as it seems. If we can get a pass rusher, a safety, and a corner in the draft, we should also have cap space to sign a veteran DB. This can be fixed fast, given that Bailey comes off the books.

I would like to see them restructure Houston, given that he’s $21M to keep and $7.5 M to cut next year. Free up some space to give him legit help on the other side. Additionally, Ford’s entire cap number comes off the books. We have to extend Hill, and that will be a huge payday but worth it. Adding a vet pass rusher or CB on a three year deal can really lighten be load for the draft.

[saphojunkie]

Ford has been one of best pass rushers this season. How are you replacing him in this scenario?

There is no way I re-sign Ford. Let him walk, take the comp pick, and draft a pass rusher in the first three picks.

With the cap space, I’d make a strong play for Anthony Barr. I hold out zero hope for Kpass or Speaks. Not saying they won’t come around, but I wouldn’t be planning on it at all.

[OKchiefs]

I would extend him two years, converting his salary this year to a signing bonus that can be mortised, while dramatically lowering his base salary and cap number for the next four seasons, allowing us to get out from under it later.

Houston is a shell of his former self. Extending him would be as dumb as extending Hali was. Houston either needs to take a significant pay cut or be released. We can save $14 million by releasing him. They should also seriously consider moving on from Berry in 2020. It's time to go young on defense and build around young players.

[saphojunkie]

Houston is a shell of his former self. Extending him would be as dumb as extending Hali was. Houston either needs to take a significant pay cut or be released. We can save $14 million by releasing him. They should also seriously consider moving on from Berry in 2020. It's time to go young on defense and build around young players.

This is a false narrative. Houston just blew up the Steelers for a strip sack and defensive touchdown. Sorry he couldn’t beat the refs, as well.

[Mecca]

Houston is a shell of his former self. Extending him would be as dumb as extending Hali was. Houston either needs to take a significant pay cut or be released. We can save $14 million by releasing him. They should also seriously consider moving on from Berry in 2020. It's time to go young on defense and build around young players.

That requires actually drafting some to build around..the 2 best defensive players on the team were drafted by the previous regime.

[OKchiefs]

That requires actually drafting some to build around..the 2 best defensive players on the team were drafted by the previous regime.

Well of course that's a whole different story. This regime has been unable to find talent on defense.

[OKchiefs]

This is a false narrative. Houston just blew up the Steelers for a strip sack and defensive touchdown. Sorry he couldn’t beat the refs, as well.

That's one play. Most of the time he simply doesn't pass the eye test.

[staylor26]

That's one play. Most of the time he simply doesn't pass the eye test.

He also would’ve gotten to Ben had he not been blatantly held on the scramble that almost went past the LOS.

He hasn’t been nearly as bad as the box score would lead you to believe, but I do agree that he needs to play better.

[OKchiefs]

He also would’ve gotten to Ben had he not been blatantly held on the scramble that almost went past the LOS.

He hasn’t been nearly as bad as the box score would lead you to believe, but I do agree that he needs to play better.

The problem is, at his salary he can't just be decent. His salary should bring a performance similar to what Von Miller or Khalil Mack bring on a weekly basis. I know that's probably never going to happen, so it's probably time to start planning for a future beyond Houston.

[Mecca]

He also would’ve gotten to Ben had he not been blatantly held on the scramble that almost went past the LOS.

He hasn’t been nearly as bad as the box score would lead you to believe, but I do agree that he needs to play better.

The sports radio guys are basically spouting the narrative that he's useless.

"Just watch him, he does nothing" So that take is probably going to be pretty popular.

[Chargem]

The great thing about the situation is that you can actually spend most/all of the high picks on defense again.

As it stands right now, on the offense they need to re-sign/sign a Center, a 2nd string tight end and a wide receiver. I say if the offense keeps looking like this, bring everyone back on offense (Conley, DAT, Morse hell maybe Harris if cheap enough) and splurge on the defense in FA and the draft.

[htismaqe]

The great thing about the situation is that you can actually spend most/all of the high picks on defense again.

As it stands right now, on the offense they need to re-sign/sign a Center, a 2nd string tight end and a wide receiver. I say if the offense keeps looking like this, bring everyone back on offense (Conley, DAT, Morse hell maybe Harris if cheap enough) and splurge on the defense in FA and the draft.

You have to have a few role players or one injury can totally screw you.

[DJ's left nut]

If he's playing the robber, that's on Nelson

It seems like Nelson also struggled with following his receiver rather than passing him off.

Bottom line - they looked like a team that hadn't ever practiced together, let alone played a game together. They have to dial way back on their number of zone calls because that secondary simply doesn't seem able to play it together.

I don't know if it's a Murray problem or a Nelson problem, but the both of those guys mixed together was sure as hell SOME kind of problem. And when you have ILB's that aren't comfortable getting the right depth on their drops as well...man, there's just open grass all over the place out there.

Gotta ride or die with man coverage and hope to generate some pressure right now, IMO.

[Bob Dole]

I had high hopes that Murray had pulled it together during the offseason. sigh

[htismaqe]

It seems like Nelson also struggled with following his receiver rather than passing him off.

Bottom line - they looked like a team that hadn't ever practiced together, let alone played a game together. They have to dial way back on their number of zone calls because that secondary simply doesn't seem able to play it together.

I don't know if it's a Murray problem or a Nelson problem, but the both of those guys mixed together was sure as hell SOME kind of problem. And when you have ILB's that aren't comfortable getting the right depth on their drops as well...man, there's just open grass all over the place out there.

Gotta ride or die with man coverage and hope to generate some pressure right now, IMO.

Nelson certainly blew his assignment too. This is what happens when most teams' backups are your starters.

[kccrow]

That play wasn't entirely Murray's fault, really. It was mostly Nelson's (or whoever was the CB on the bottom of the screen). He sticks with his man across the end zone instead of passing him off to the deep safety and maintaining his zone, which the TE comes open into. Murray was a bit too shallow, but putting this 100% on Murray is stupid.

That said, Murray does suck alot of ass in the grand scheme, so I am on board with replacing him.

[Chiefs=Champions]

You don't palm off players in deep zones if they will be running wide open. Murray has to do a better job of staying with the late crossing route, thats his job there. You cant take zones so literally.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Zones and the coverages will always be dictated by the routes run and where receivers line up. Thats 100% on Murray.

[kccrow]

You don't palm off players in deep zones if they will be running wide open. Murray has to do a better job of staying with the late crossing route, thats his job there. You cant take zones so literally.

Bullshit.

https://image.ibb.co/hCqF6e/issue.png

[NJChiefsFan]

I have to agree that I see this more on Nelson. I think Murray does work his way out of position. Certainly him and the LB to his left are too close but in the end if Nelson is in his zone Ben is forced to make a dangerous pass.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Bullshit.

https://image.ibb.co/hCqF6e/issue.png


Edit. I think Parker has to first commit to stopping the seam route but the player cuts his route off. Its a tough one, but looks like the cocept is designed to get parker to cheat up and get nelsons guy free.

[Chiefs=Champions]

The shallow zone defenders are supposed to pick up late crossing routes. Thats what they are taught. Parker has to go with the seam route. Thats how it works. You dont pass a player simply because thats not where your zone is, theres give and take. If anyone is guilty of not playing their zone it would be Murray for over committing to Hitchen's zone.

[htismaqe]

You don't palm off players in deep zones if they will be running wide open. Murray has to do a better job of staying with the late crossing route, thats his job there. You cant take zones so literally.

You absolutely do. Zone defenses only work if you can trust the guy next to you to do his job.

Nelson made a mistake. As soon as he tried to cover for Murray, he left his zone open. Absolutely cannot happen.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Of course you do to an extent. But not entirely. Its real easy to pick apart in hindsight. Murray has to go with the crosser he needs to anticipate it better. And maybe nelson needs to work back, but initially ron is covering the seam route.

[Chiefs=Champions]

If nelson stays strictly in his zone thats an easy touchdown to the receiver.

[O.city]

If nelson stays strictly in his zone thats an easy touchdown to the receiver.

He’s supposed to release him to Parker who’s got the deep middle.

Murray needs to feel the wr and come more towards the sideline as hitchens does.

3 fuck ups there.

That’s why guys need time to practice together

[htismaqe]

If nelson stays strictly in his zone thats an easy touchdown to the receiver.

Not because Nelson screwed up. Lack of zone discipline creates holes in a defense. Nelson needs to do his job and not worry about anyone else.

[O.city]

Not because Nelson screwed up. Lack of zone discipline creates holes in a defense. Nelson needs to do his job and not worry about anyone else.

Yeah you’ve just gotta trust the other 10.

[Chiefs=Champions]

You have to flow to where the receivers are, zones are fluid. We can blame Nelson, Parker and Murray. But Murray has to have better awareness there, thats my opinion, you can have yours.

[htismaqe]

You have to flow to where the receivers are, zones are fluid. We can blame Nelson, Parker and Murray. But Murray has to have better awareness there, thats my opinion, you can have yours.

Zones flow but not CLEAR ACROSS THE FIELD.

Nelson should have stayed put. But make no mistake about it, he doesn't even try that if Murray does his job.

Nelson I can forgive. He was trying to cover a problem. Murray? He's ALWAYS out of position. He needs to be covering the bench.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Its actually a great play design against what we are running there. Either way somebody is getting open. The seam player breaks his route cause he sees Parker over the top. He likely would have read it and kept going if parker is covering Nelson's guy.

[Chiefs=Champions]

Zones flow but not CLEAR ACROSS THE FIELD.

Nelson should have stayed put. But make no mistake about it, he doesn't even try that if Murray does his job.

Nelson I can forgive. He was trying to cover a problem. Murray? He's ALWAYS out of position. He needs to be covering the bench.

Murray is a man corner being asked to play safety. Disaster. He just cant seem to pick up zone coverage.

[htismaqe]

Murray is a man corner being asked to play safety. Disaster. He just cant seem to pick up zone coverage.

Yep. He's athletic (or at least he was in college) but his football IQ just doesn't seem to be very high at all.

[O.city]

If you’re playing zone and a qb of bens ability gets that much time it’s not gonna make a whole lot of difference

[htismaqe]

If you’re playing zone and a qb of bens ability gets that much time it’s not gonna make a whole lot of difference

If you drop 8 and everybody stays disciplined, a lot of times there just won't be anywhere to throw. What happens when a play extends is that WR's break off routes (or run option routes) and defenders get antsy. They have to stay put and make sure they cover their zone.

[WhiteWhale]

I mean, I guess on that play you can talk about who ****ed up the MOST, but to me it just looks like bad team defense.

Not knowing when to switch.

This isn't about scheme. It's a bout a lack of discipline and attention to detail by multiple individuals.

Do I blame the individuals, or the coaches who are preparing them? I'm not at practice or meetings, but it looks ugly.

I don't think the D has overall been as bad as it looks right now. Honestly if you told me KC would have a safety and a turnover in the 2nd half and win I'd be pretty shocked. KC made more stops than Pittsburgh did, and it's a tough place to play defense.

[htismaqe]

I mean, I guess on that play you can talk about who fucked up the MOST, but to me it just looks like bad team defense.

Not knowing when to switch.

This isn't about scheme. It's a bout a lack of discipline and attention to detail.

Yep. Some of these guys can't even do the basics right.

[J Diddy]

Yes we need to get him off it and berry on it. Assuming his legs still work

[lcarus]

I don't think the D has overall been as bad as it looks right now. Honestly if you told me KC would have a safety and a turnover in the 2nd half and win I'd be pretty shocked. KC made more stops than Pittsburgh did, and it's a tough place to play defense.

They did make some nice stops. Mainly in the 1st and 4th quarter. It just kinda feels like a minor miracle when we do hold someone to 4th down. Especially a good offense like the Chargers and Steelers. I think the D will look a lot better if and when we get a healthy Berry back. Hes someone that immediately makes both run and pass defense better

[WhiteWhale]

They did make some nice stops. Mainly in the 1st and 4th quarter. It just kinda feels like a minor miracle when we do hold someone to 4th down. Especially a good offense like the Chargers and Steelers. I think the D will look a lot better if and when we get a healthy Berry back. Hes someone that immediately makes both run and pass defense better

I mean, right now KC's only allowing 27% 3rd down conversion rate.

I'm not expecting it to stay like that, but 3/11 against Ben and Antonio is NOT something I expected.

It allowed KC to win (as long as Mahomes kept pouring it on) after the fumble and safety.

[TLO]

I haven't checked the other thread, but I'm assuming Berry is out again this week?

[DJ's left nut]

I haven't checked the other thread, but I'm assuming Berry is out again this week?

He got paid about 13 months ago.

So...yes.

[The Franchise]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> Thursday injuries<br><br>S E. Berry (heel) - DNP<br>S A. Watts (no injury) - DNP<br>DL C. Jones (groin) - full<br>LB B. Niemann (hamstring) - limited<br>LG C. Erving (knee) - full<br>CB K. Fuller (hand) - full<br>DL J. Jenkins (elbow) - full<br>LB R. Ragland (shoulder/knee) - full</p>&mdash; Arrowhead Pride (@ArrowheadPride) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArrowheadPride/status/1042909851809132545?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Why in the fuck is Watts not practicing?

[htismaqe]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> Thursday injuries<br><br>S E. Berry (heel) - DNP<br>S A. Watts (no injury) - DNP<br>DL C. Jones (groin) - full<br>LB B. Niemann (hamstring) - limited<br>LG C. Erving (knee) - full<br>CB K. Fuller (hand) - full<br>DL J. Jenkins (elbow) - full<br>LB R. Ragland (shoulder/knee) - full</p>&mdash; Arrowhead Pride (@ArrowheadPride) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArrowheadPride/status/1042909851809132545?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 20, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Why in the fuck is Watts not practicing?

Probably a personal issue or something. If he's not injured, it probably doesn't matter.

[staylor26]

Keysor said after reviewing the film that Murray had a good game. Sounds like they put him in Parker’s role because he was playing deep a lot. That would be 3 good games in a row. Maybe he’s figured it out :shrug:

After a rough start he’s now the 34th S with a “good” grade on PFF FWIW

[Simply Red]

Keysor said after reviewing the film that Murray had a good game. Sounds like they put him in Parker’s role because he was playing deep a lot. That would be 3 good games in a row. Maybe he’s figured it out :shrug:

After a rough start he’s now the 34th S with a “good” grade on PFF FWIW

Yeah - I wouldn't be surprised - he was one hell of a NCAA player and is still young. CP will talk about the weeds in a rose garden, half the time.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Keysor said after reviewing the film that Murray had a good game. Sounds like they put him in Parker’s role because he was playing deep a lot. That would be 3 good games in a row. Maybe he’s figured it out :shrug:

After a rough start he’s now the 34th S with a “good” grade on PFF FWIW
Murray was awesome last week. Lucas struggled, so I’d hope Sorensen and Murray get most of the snaps.

[Simply Red]

Murray was awesome last week. Lucas struggled, so I’d hope Sorensen and Murray get most of the snaps.

My opinion is subject to change - but RIGHT NOW? I am with you.

[chiefzilla1501]

Keysor said after reviewing the film that Murray had a good game. Sounds like they put him in Parker’s role because he was playing deep a lot. That would be 3 good games in a row. Maybe he’s figured it out :shrug:

After a rough start he’s now the 34th S with a “good” grade on PFF FWIW

Parker is still in on almost 100% of snaps. Unfortunately.

[staylor26]

Parker is still in on almost 100% of snaps. Unfortunately.

True, but he at least played better in that role. That just makes me all the more confident that when we get Sorenson and Berry back that he won’t see the field much.

[htismaqe]

True, but he at least played better in that role. That just makes me all the more confident that when we get Sorenson and Berry back that he won’t see the field much.

Murray is playing a lot better for sure. But I'm not confident at all that Parker is going to see his playing time reduced. Not only is he playing the most snaps of any DB, I think he's playing the most snaps on defense period.

[staylor26]

Murray is playing a lot better for sure. But I'm not confident at all that Parker is going to see his playing time reduced. Not only is he playing the most snaps of any DB, I think he's playing the most snaps on defense period.

They cut Parker and were prepared to go with Sorenson, Berry, and Murray.

They already made a change in his role.

You get those two back and there’s no doubt Parker is the 4th safety IMO.

[DJ's left nut]

They cut Parker and were prepared to go with Sorenson, Berry, and Murray.

They already made a change in his role.

You get those two back and there’s no doubt Parker is the 4th safety IMO.

I don't think they'll cut him but he'll be a gameday inactive. His salary for the season is guaranteed so there's really no benefit to cutting him and making some other 53rd man inactive.

[staylor26]

I don't think they'll cut him but he'll be a gameday inactive. His salary for the season is guaranteed so there's really no benefit to cutting him and making some other 53rd man inactive.

Agreed.

[Simply Red]

maybe they could cut his wrists!!!?

[O.city]

I think they'll keep playing Parker. Maybe I'm too jaded.

[staylor26]

I think they'll keep playing Parker. Maybe I'm too jaded.

I think you are.

[htismaqe]

I think you are.

I know I am.

[Simply Red]

maybe they could cut his wrists!!!?

I SHOULD BE A COACH, HUH?!!!!

[DJ's left nut]

I think they'll keep playing Parker. Maybe I'm too jaded.

They eventually sat DJ, man.

If you can swallow hard and sit down with that dude and tell him he's not going to start or get significant snaps anymore, you can damn sure do it with Ron Parker.

I think Sutton's wrong in his apparent belief that Parker presents a security blanket for him that Lucas doesn't. But that's a judgment error, not a lack of wherewithal.

If Berry, Murray and Sorensen are all healthy, his hand is undeniably played for him; that simple 'error in judgment' is no longer available for him. At that point he'll make the call and sit Parker.

He's made harder ones in the past. Being wrong doesn't mean being gutless. Here he's wrong but I don't think he's gutless and because of that, when there's no longer a true judgment call for him to make, he'll pull the trigger on Parker.

[O.city]

They eventually sat DJ, man.

If you can swallow hard and sit down with that dude and tell him he's not going to start or get significant snaps anymore, you can damn sure do it with Ron Parker.

I think Sutton's wrong in his apparent belief that Parker presents a security blanket for him that Lucas doesn't. But that's a judgment error, not a lack of wherewithal.

If Berry, Murray and Sorensen are all healthy, his hand is undeniably played for him; that simple 'error in judgment' is no longer available for him. At that point he'll make the call and sit Parker.

He's made harder ones in the past. Being wrong doesn't mean being gutless. Here he's wrong but I don't think he's gutless and because of that, when there's no longer a true judgment call for him to make, he'll pull the trigger on Parker.

When did they sit DJ?

[ModSocks]

I think they'll keep playing Parker too. It'll be Berry/Parker with Sorenson coming in on specific packages.

[staylor26]

I think they'll keep playing Parker too. It'll be Berry/Parker with Sorenson coming in on specific packages.

Why would they bench Murray when he’s playing well and they’ve already put him in Parker’s role? You think they’re going to put Parker back in that role?

I don’t think you guys are being logical at all.

[O.city]

They've had Parker playing a lot in every spot. I just don't know that they'll take him off the field when he's the guy playing 100 percent of the safety snaps per week.

[RunKC]

Murray should have been called for the DPI in the end zone. He’s damn lucky he got away with it.

He’s also played Baker Mayfield and Case Keenum recently.

I don’t trust him to play against QB’s that don’t suck.

[staylor26]

Murray should have been called for the DPI in the end zone. He’s damn lucky he got away with it.

He’s also played Baker Mayfield and Case Keenum recently.

I don’t trust him to play against QB’s that don’t suck.

That was a close one. It wasn’t as blatant as you guys have tried to make it. I thought it was a decent no call.

I trust Murray way more than I trust Parker.

Give me the ascending young guy over the declining old one all day.

[staylor26]

They've had Parker playing a lot in every spot. I just don't know that they'll take him off the field when he's the guy playing 100 percent of the safety snaps per week.

Murray played 100% of the snaps Sunday while Parker played 99%

Jaded.

[O.city]

That was a close one. It wasn’t as blatant as you guys have tried to make it. I thought it was a decent no call.

I trust Murray way more than I trust Parker.

Give me the ascending young guy over the declining old one all day.

Murray played 100% of the snaps Sunday while Parker played 99%

Jaded.

Homer.

2 sides of the same coin I guess.

I'll believe they will take Parker off the field when they do. Up until then, I think he'll be out there over Lucas and Murray when they're all healthy.

[staylor26]

Homer.

2 sides of the same coin I guess.

I'll believe they will take Parker off the field when they do. Up until then, I think he'll be out there over Lucas and Murray when they're all healthy.

Look at the instant replay, not the live footage. He barely touched the WR. That doesn’t get called all of the time, 50/50 maybe. For example, wasn’t as bad as Sherman vs Hill and that didn’t get called either. Either way he was at least in position. Parker wouldn’t have been within 10 yards of the WR.

[DJ's left nut]

When did they sit DJ?

Last year. He was a sub package guy primarily and was losing snaps Kevin Pierre Louis while Ragland had effectively taken over his more 'every down' role.

He was never inactive, but Sutton bumped him to 3rd in on the ILB depth chart.

[O.city]

Look at the instant replay, not the live footage. He barely touched the WR. That doesn’t get called all of the time, 50/50 maybe. For example, wasn’t as bad as Sherman vs Hill and that didn’t get called either. Either way he was at least in position. Parker wouldn’t have been within 10 yards of the WR.

Oh I think Parker sucks and that part is true.

[O.city]

Last year. He was a sub package guy primarily and was losing snaps Kevin Pierre Louis while Ragland had effectively taken over his more 'every down' role.

He was never inactive, but Sutton bumped him to 3rd in on the ILB depth chart.

That's true, but he was still playing a lot of snaps.

With as much as we play 3 safeties, I'm skeptical they'll go for youth. I've been wrong before, a few times maybe.

[DJ's left nut]

That's true, but he was still playing a lot of snaps.

With as much as we play 3 safeties, I'm skeptical they'll go for youth. I've been wrong before, a few times maybe.

He was rotating in because we have 3 ILBs and 2 spots for them to play; that's basic 'fatigue' substitutions. With Berry, Sorensen and Murray, you have 3 Safeties for 2 spots; Parker becomes the 4th but since we don't run 3 safeties every play, he's not needed for fatigue purposes. And let's not forget that they CUT Parker and had no intention of bringing him back prior to injuries. Prior to camp, they had every intention of elevating Berry, Dan and Murray over Parker.

The only question for me is whether or not they'd keep Parker active over Lucas. And I've seen them send Lucas out wide and give him man responsibility in Dime packages - I think they see corner skills there (in fact, if one of the main 3 CBs went down, I think Lucas is who we'd see take over as CB3, not the rookies). They don't do that with Parker anymore because I think they understand he's not athletic enough to manage it.

So I think they'd keep Lucas active over Parker due to versatility if/when they are finally convinced the other 3 guys are healthy and up to speed. At that point he's the #4 safety (with Lucas as a safety/CB hybrid) and he's inactive.

[O.city]

He was rotating in because we have 3 ILBs and 2 spots for them to play; that's basic 'fatigue' substitutions. With Berry, Sorensen and Murray, you have 3 Safeties for 2 spots; Parker becomes the 4th but since we don't run 3 safeties every play, he's not needed for fatigue purposes. And let's not forget that they CUT Parker and had no intention of bringing him back prior to injuries. Prior to camp, they had every intention of elevating Berry, Dan and Murray over Parker.

The only question for me is whether or not they'd keep Parker active over Lucas. And I've seen them send Lucas out wide and give him man responsibility in Dime packages - I think they see corner skills there (in fact, if one of the main 3 CBs went down, I think Lucas is who we'd see take over as CB3, not the rookies). They don't do that with Parker anymore because I think they understand he's not athletic enough to manage it.

So I think they'd keep Lucas active over Parker due to versatility if/when they are finally convinced the other 3 guys are healthy and up to speed. At that point he's the #4 safety (with Lucas as a safety/CB hybrid) and he's inactive.

I hope.

We'll see. I'm skeptical.

[RunKC]

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Replacing Murray with Berry should make this defense much better. This guy is constantly hurting this team every damn week.

[In58men]

I’m pretty sure I can make those tackles. Dive at the legs and home on.

I played a little high school football and it’s really not that hard to make these tackles

[ILChief]

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Replacing Murray with Berry should make this defense much better. This guy is constantly hurting this team every damn week.

I bet berry replaces Parker and not murray. This team loves murray for some reason

[ChiefsFanatic]

I bet berry replaces Parker and not murray. This team loves murray for some reasonWell, has Parker ever accidentally intercepted a pass because he was beaten by his man and just flailed at the ball? Absolutely not.

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[Red Dawg]

He's stinks bad and is further proof Sutton sucks. Lucas is better but he rides the pine.
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[suzzer99]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Eric Murray won the appeal of his fine for hitting a defenseless receiver against the Los Angeles Rams in Week 11. That rescinds a $26k fine. <a href="https://t.co/yO7iHLR7Uu">https://t.co/yO7iHLR7Uu</a></p>&mdash; Matt Derrick (@mattderrick) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattderrick/status/1076202676294205440?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 21, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Murray's fine on that bullshit call is overturned. Does anyone know - is the fine automatic for that penalty, or was the NFL trying to double-down on a clearly terrible call?

[RunKC]

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Replacing Murray with Berry should make this defense much better. This guy is constantly hurting this team every damn week.

I’m so glad this asshole is gone.

[KChiefs1]

Mission Accomplished.


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