What would happen if defensive holding was just a five-yard penalty (no first down)?

[Rain Man]

I've been thinking about the problem in the NFL of not allowing defense, and we've talked about the problems with pass interference. But I think the bigger problem may be defensive holding. Pass interference at least happens near the ball, but as we've all seen, a defensive holding call could occur completely away from the action, and it's a major penalty since it carries a first down. Also, defensive holding has up to five chances of occurring depending on the number of receivers out in routes.

It's a really important penalty call since it carries a first down, even though I'm not convinced that it affects a majority of the plays where it's called.

So tell me your opinion. What if defensive holding was simply treated like an offsides penalty? The play culminates, and the offense can take the result of the play or five yards, which may or may not result in a first down (just like offsides). What's the down side of doing this?

[mlyonsd]

Tyreek would never catch another TD.

[RealSNR]

I think it's more crucial that pass interference is changed to 15 yards and a first down instead of the spot of the ball.

It's total and utter bullshit that a subjective call like that can be so lethal and damaging to a team.

"Well, then just don't interfere."

Sure. I've seen some of the bullshit DPI calls the refs in this league are capable of calling. Should be soooooo simple just to not interfere!

[jjchieffan]

I think that the holding penalty should not be called if it's away from the play. It's stupid to negate a good defensive play where the ball is at because of something across the field that had no effect whatsoever on the play.

[jjchieffan]

I think it's more crucial that pass interference is changed to 15 yards and a first down instead of the spot of the ball.

It's total and utter bullshit that a subjective call like that can be so lethal and damaging to a team.

"Well, then just don't interfere."

Sure. I've seen some of the bullshit DPI calls the refs in this league are capable of calling. Should be soooooo simple just to not interfere!

That's a tough one. If a DB gets beat 40 yards down field and the guy knows that he has no chance at the ball, but he can tackle the receiver and just take a 15 yard penalty, then he's probably going to take out the receiver. Better to give up 15 than 50. No. I say leave it how it is. Force the DB to play it honest.

[TambaBerry]

I think that the holding penalty should not be called if it's away from the play. It's stupid to negate a good defensive play where the ball is at because of something across the field that had no effect whatsoever on the play.

but you can argue that the play would have gone that way if the defensive hold didnt occur. The only way to truly give defense back in the game is you have to call more offensive pass interference. Every single pass thats a fade into the endzone is a push off by the receiver, same thing with goal line back shoulder throws.

[Rain Man]

I think that the holding penalty should not be called if it's away from the play. It's stupid to negate a good defensive play where the ball is at because of something across the field that had no effect whatsoever on the play.

I think you have to call it, though. If a defender holds the quarterback's first read and then he looks elsewhere, it should still be a penalty. But the problem occurs because you've got multiple receivers out running routes, and if any one of them tangles with a defender, it's a first down, even if they were never looked at by the quarterback.

[ILChief]

Defensive holding should be five yards no automatic first down

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

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[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I think you have to call it, though. If a defender holds the quarterback's first read and then he looks elsewhere, it should still be a penalty. But the problem occurs because you've got multiple receivers out running routes, and if any one of them tangles with a defender, it's a first down, even if they were never looked at by the quarterback.

Well then, if it's away from the play don't penalize the first down. If it is at the play then throw in the 1st.

[RealSNR]

That's a tough one. If a DB gets beat 40 yards down field and the guy knows that he has no chance at the ball, but he can tackle the receiver and just take a 15 yard penalty, then he's probably going to take out the receiver. Better to give up 15 than 50. No. I say leave it how it is. Force the DB to play it honest.

That's how they do it in college. 15 yards is still a bad penalty any way you slice it. You can still keep in the same strict rules for PI, and at least it will give the defense a slight advantage. You want some of that downfield shit to happen? Then really earn it. And if you're a defender, if you're typically a guy like a deep safety and your #1 go-to move is to just DPI the shit out of the receiver, you're not going to have a very successful career.

I think it would work just fine.

[cooper barrett]

I agree with the hold affecting the play, and that 60 yards is overkill.

I'd be happy wiping the "spot" penalty for interference but there would be nothing but interference penalties....

Holding affecting play, 5 yds on top of gain and a 1st, not affecting, an addl 5 on top of the play(no first).

Interference: 15 and first or spot of the foul depending on severity.

[kccrow]

I've made a long post about all this previously, so I won't reinvent that here. Yes, defensive holding should not carry an automatic first down. Does offensive holding carry a loss of down?

[GloryDayz]

Not that the NFL will ever allow anything that minimizes scoring.... But if we're going to play fantasy fouls, how about O-line holding be allowed to be an automatic 4th down? IOW, if defense holding can adjust the downs by 4, why not offensive holding?

Oh, and start actually calling offensive holding! Perhaps hire two more officials dedicated to watching for the O-line holding since the Referees and Umpires seem to miss 98% of the shirt tugs (the very definition of defensive holding) and half-Nelson's put on the defense's necks who are rushing the QB.

Yeah, never mind, the NFL won't ever do it.

[tooge]

Defensive holding should be a spot foul penalty. If it’s 3rd and 11 and the holding occurs 7 yards down field, it’d be 3rd and 4. Seems fair to me

[GloryDayz]

I'd be happy if offensive holding was called more than extremely rarely. And yeah, it should be either a spot foul or 15 yards, and an automatic 4th down. Basically apply the same standards to holding for both teams on the field, and the degree of the penalty should be equal.

[srvy]

Its a natural game steering penalty. It will go nowhere it an important tool for officiating.

[KChiefs1]

No more automatic first downs.

Pass interference needs to be 15 yards.
Defensive holding 5 yards.

[Chargem]

but if there were no 1st downs, why wouldn't you just bear hug every receiver on 3rd down and 7+?

[Rain Man]

but if there were no 1st downs, why wouldn't you just bear hug every receiver on 3rd down and 7+?

It would be treated like offsides. So you'd replay the down five yards closer if the offense accepts the penalty.

[cooper barrett]

No more automatic first downs.

Pass interference needs to be 15 yards.
Defensive holding 5 yards.

Receivers would bludgeoned anytime there was a long pass that was catchable....

[RippedmyFlesh]

Changing penalties isn't going to fix things. Instead of 5 yards of contact with receivers allowed make it 10. No more automatic 6-8 yard passes. Then you would need a real qb again to be a passing team. Like us.

[kccrow]

By the way rainman, here's my original post that I referenced having made on the topic:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=13786394&postcount=13

[bobbything]

Defensive holding should be a spot foul penalty. If it’s 3rd and 11 and the holding occurs 7 yards down field, it’d be 3rd and 4. Seems fair to me

This.

Can’t remember which game it was but some team on Thanksgiving had the other in like 3rd and 20. Then they got called for defensive holding like 6 yards down. Aside from the fact that it was questionable holding to begin with, they got an automatic first down.

It was bullshit. I think it was the Cowboys. Maybe that’s why I was so pissed. Got tired of having to watch Jerry Jones’ reaction every time something happened.

[GloryDayz]

Sadly, none of this will happen. The NFL wants games with scores something like 54-51, they won't do anything that'll hinder scoring. Nothing...

[philfree]

I wouldn't matter because the refs will just call pass interference instead,

[oldman]

Instead of 5 yards of contact with receivers allowed make it 10. No more automatic 6-8 yard passes. Then you would need a real qb again to be a passing team. Like us.

This is kind of my thought, too. These guys are just too fast to get a bump on them within that 5 yard zone.

[Chief Roundup]

Spot foul, if it happens past the line to gain it could/would still allow for the first down and not allow a defense to hold to stop the first down conversion.

[crayzkirk]

I do think the automatic first down is a bit much. Especially when it's third and 25 and the holding occurs prior to the yard marker. With all of the changes favoring the offense, perhaps they should start making penalties on the offense yardage and down. Maybe like the un-catchable pass, there needs to be some sort of sanity check as to whether the offense actually affected the play.