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MAHOMO 4 LIFE!
02-19-2019, 04:12 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> are expected to franchise tag Dee Ford, keeping a talented rusher in the building, as they work through acquisition scenarios for their new 4-3 defense. <a href="https://twitter.com/nflnetwork?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@nflnetwork</a> <a href="https://t.co/O3uRr69hTQ">pic.twitter.com/O3uRr69hTQ</a></p>&mdash; Tom Pelissero (@TomPelissero) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1097930657882357760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 19, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

TambaBerry
02-19-2019, 04:13 PM
Q

htismaqe
02-19-2019, 04:13 PM
QQQ

Chargem
02-19-2019, 04:18 PM
Still part of me hopes this is a smoke screen to get him to sign the tag so they can trade him before the draft.

Chiefpanther
02-19-2019, 04:19 PM
Tag and trade him for a 2nd and 4th round pick

Scooter LaCanforno
02-19-2019, 05:05 PM
I'd tag and trade him for Luke Kuechly. Carolina switching to a 3-4 D.

SAUTO
02-19-2019, 05:05 PM
I'd tag and trade him for Luke Kuechly. Carolina switching to a 3-4 D.

That's another good idea imo, but he's concussion boy. That's a worry

suzzer99
02-19-2019, 05:24 PM
Is this supposed to be some kind of insider info, or just a pundit saying what the other pundits mostly believe is going to happen?

KChiefs1
02-19-2019, 06:30 PM
I'd tag and trade him for Luke Kuechly. Carolina switching to a 3-4 D.



I’d be all for this if Kuechly could stay healthy.

Red Dawg
02-19-2019, 07:41 PM
Don't like. Ford is a dufuss who ruined the SB for everyone.

ChiefAshhole1056
02-19-2019, 07:44 PM
If he can stay healthy this next year we have a top pass rush again, if he gets hurt we let him go next offseason and gain a 3rd rounder the next draft. At the end of the day this is the correct move.

-King-
02-19-2019, 07:45 PM
Don't like. Ford is a dufuss who ruined the SB for everyone.

Ford was also the best player on defense last year. Without his sacks and takeways, we somehow would have been even worse.

Sweet Daddy Hate
02-19-2019, 07:53 PM
Step 1 complete.

CoMoChief
02-19-2019, 08:01 PM
Let's hope the football gods/angels put the necessary spirits into Justin Houston's head to convince him to take a pay cut.

RealSNR
02-19-2019, 08:32 PM
This Dee Ford news really crosses the line.

TinyEvel
02-19-2019, 10:53 PM
BREAKING NEWS: Dee Ford Franchise Tagged by Chiefs!

Ford was quoted as saying, “Was I?”

cabletech94
02-19-2019, 10:58 PM
This Dee Ford news really crosses the line.

god dammit.

King slayer
02-20-2019, 02:42 AM
ROFLROFL:clap::clap::clap:ROFLROFLBREAKING NEWS: Dee Ford Franchise Tagged by Chiefs!

Ford was quoted as saying, “Was I?”

Chiefs4TheWin
02-20-2019, 03:33 AM
BREAKING NEWS: Dee Ford Franchise Tagged by Chiefs!

Ford was quoted as saying, “Was I?”

ROFLROFLROFL:):):):)ROFLROFL Perfect

Gravedigger
02-20-2019, 04:45 AM
This Dee Ford news really crosses the line.

Just a step too far.

58-4ever
02-20-2019, 08:08 AM
I'm wondering if Veach has some sort of "Run it back" mentality with last years' team. We will see if a new scheme on D will be effective.

HemiEd
02-20-2019, 08:15 AM
Tag and trade him for a 2nd and 4th round pick

Brilliant. Cp never disappoints. Trade an experienced former 1st round pick, that is finally hitting his stride, for less than a first rounder. :banghead:

It is not like the team got years of great production out of him, he was slow developing and injury prone. Now he is finally earning his money.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 09:29 AM
Brilliant. Cp never disappoints. Trade an experienced former 1st round pick, that is finally hitting his stride, for less than a first rounder. :banghead:

It is not like the team got years of great production out of him, he was slow developing and injury prone. Now he is finally earning his money.

Until he gets hurt again.

Buckweath
02-20-2019, 09:35 AM
My man Dee Ford, I'm real excited to have him back and I believe he should be again one of the best players on the team.

Sure, the injury concerns are there but this was always a rather easy decision.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 09:40 AM
Why does our fanbase hate this guy so much? 14 sacks, 8 FF last year with DBs who couldn’t cover longer than 2 seconds.

Considering his acceleration off the ball, he’s probably our most physically gifted player on the entire defense. His run defense will get better transitioning to a one gap 4-3 instead of Sutton’s wild 2 gap 3-4 that almost nobody could play good run defense in.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 09:49 AM
Why does our fanbase hate this guy so much? 14 sacks, 8 FF last year with DBs who couldn’t cover longer than 2 seconds.

Considering his acceleration off the ball, he’s probably our most physically gifted player on the entire defense. His run defense will get better transitioning to a one gap 4-3 instead of Sutton’s wild 2 gap 3-4 that almost nobody could play good run defense in.

Hate him? ROFL

I don't hate Dee Ford. It's just business.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 09:53 AM
Hate him? ROFL

I don't hate Dee Ford. It's just business.

Good business is trading your most talented and productive defensive player?

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 09:54 AM
Good business is trading your most talented and productive defensive player?

Based on one season of production or based on 9 seasons of constant, nagging injuries?

One is a trend, the other is an aberration.

Hammock Parties
02-20-2019, 09:58 AM
We can either pay a dude who is 3 years older than Ford with worse injury history and less production....or pay Ford.

It's as simple as that.

Hammock Parties
02-20-2019, 10:01 AM
And if you really want to get into it:

Last 37 games

Dee Ford - 25 sacks

Justin Houston - 26 sacks

And in the last three seasons, Ford has played in 37 games vs Houston's 32.

It is what it is.

They have to pay Ford.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 10:03 AM
Then just sign him. Anything less than a Super Bowl berth in 2019 is a failure.

If they HAVE to keep Ford, give him a deal, make the 2019 cap hit low, sign some free agents, and worry about 2020 after winning the Super Bowl.

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 10:03 AM
We can probably pay both Ford and Houston by cutting Berry.

He is my choice to cut instead of Ford and Houston.

Of course, a contract adjustment on Houston also helps. But Houston is perfect for our new defense and will finally get to rush the passer and set the edge, rather than dropping back in coverage half (or more) of the time.

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 10:04 AM
Well, the tag makes sense to see how Ford looks in the new defense, and if it makes his run liability even more of a liability.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 10:05 AM
We can probably pay both Ford and Houston by cutting Berry.

He is my choice to cut instead of Ford and Houston.

They're not going to cut Berry. They love him. I'd be shocked.

Of course, a contract adjustment on Houston also helps. But Houston is perfect for our new defense and will finally get to rush the passer and set the edge, rather than dropping back in coverage half (or more) of the time.

Houston has never in his entire career been in coverage more than 25% of snaps.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 10:06 AM
Well, the tag makes sense to see how Ford looks in the new defense, and if it makes his run liability even more of a liability.

So after being 1 play away from the Super Bowl in 2018, 2019 is an experimental season? Let's play around and see if he fits? :facepalm:

O.city
02-20-2019, 10:07 AM
So after being 1 play away from the Super Bowl in 2018, 2019 is an experimental season? Let's play around and see if he fits? :facepalm:

So, should they not have changed up the defense?

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 10:10 AM
So, should they not have changed up the defense?

I'm all for change.

I'm not for building a defense around a guy that can't stay healthy.

O.city
02-20-2019, 10:12 AM
I'm all for change.

I'm not for building a defense around a guy that can't stay healthy.

A one year franchise tag is building around one guy?

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 10:14 AM
A one year franchise tag is building around one guy?

If the goal is a Super Bowl in 2019, dedicating $15M in cap space to a guy that has never demonstrated the ability to stay healthy isn't a good idea. It's that simple.

Bob Dole
02-20-2019, 10:33 AM
Houston has never in his entire career been in coverage more than 25% of snaps.

It probably just seems like more because 50% of the time he is, it's a replay highlight for the other team converting a first down.

staylor26
02-20-2019, 10:35 AM
We can either pay a dude who is 3 years older than Ford with worse injury history and less production....or pay Ford.

It's as simple as that.

This.

Red Dawg
02-20-2019, 10:41 AM
This will be another bad move by Veach. Ford is not worth 15 mil at all.
One guy can't do it all. He had zero stats in the big game and he is too damn stupid to line up right.

RunKC
02-20-2019, 10:47 AM
And if you really want to get into it:

Last 37 games

Dee Ford - 25 sacks

Justin Houston - 26 sacks

And in the last three seasons, Ford has played in 37 games vs Houston's 32.

It is what it is.

They have to pay Ford.

As I mentioned in the other thread, it depends on what the goal is. I don’t think either one of these guys is here in 2020.

You have two options:

Option A: cut Houston, save money, franchise Ford and take a 3rd rd comp later on.

Option B: Keep Houston (hopefully at a restructured rate) for one more year, trade Ford for a 1st or 2nd rd pick in the draft in 2 months, then cut Houston in 2020 to save $17.5 million to only $1.5 million in dead money.

I’ve wanted to keep Ford, but I’d be lying if I wouldn’t take option B after looking at the bigger picture.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 11:10 AM
We can probably pay both Ford and Houston by cutting Berry.

He is my choice to cut instead of Ford and Houston.

Of course, a contract adjustment on Houston also helps. But Houston is perfect for our new defense and will finally get to rush the passer and set the edge, rather than dropping back in coverage half (or more) of the time.


Houston only fits as a RDE, same as Ford.

He's not a SAM unless you want to see him in coverage more than not. 4-3 linebackers cover more than rush.

The Franchise
02-20-2019, 11:12 AM
As I mentioned in the other thread, it depends on what the goal is. I don’t think either one of these guys is here in 2020.

You have two options:

Option A: cut Houston, save money, franchise Ford and take a 3rd rd comp later on.

Option B: Keep Houston (hopefully at a restructured rate) for one more year, trade Ford for a 1st or 2nd rd pick in the draft in 2 months, then cut Houston in 2020 to save $17.5 million to only $1.5 million in dead money.

I’ve wanted to keep Ford, but I’d be lying if I wouldn’t take option B after looking at the bigger picture.

It beats option C which is signing Ford to a long term deal.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 11:14 AM
Based on one season of production or based on 9 seasons of constant, nagging injuries?

One is a trend, the other is an aberration.

He’s been very productive 2 of his last 3 seasons. With the other one being out with injury. Also I don’t know what you’re referring to with 9 years, he’s only been in the league for 5 and has only been injured once.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 11:20 AM
.

Tribal Warfare
02-20-2019, 11:22 AM
https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2014/5/15/5699418/dee-ford-injury-history-chiefs

https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/dee-ford/6950



Dee Ford Injury History
Date League Injury Details
Oct 30, 2017 NFL Back Lower Lumbar Strain Grade 2

Sep 24, 2017 NFL Back Lower Lumbar Sprain

Nov 20, 2016 NFL Thigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1

Jan 3, 2016 NFL Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1

Nov 22, 2015 NFL Back Lower Lumbar Muscle

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 11:22 AM
He’s been very productive 2 of his last 3 seasons. With the other one being out with injury. Also I don’t know what you’re referring to with 9 years, he’s only been in the league for 5 and has only been injured once.

Since 2011, his sophomore year in college, he's been injured FOURTEEN times by my count. Both knees (one more than once and caused him to miss the combine), an abdominal injury that caused him to miss half a season, a groin twice (once in college, once here), 3 back injuries, 2 back surgeries, and various minor dings.

He's been available for an entire season TWICE in 9 seasons between college and pro. He's missed an entire season with injury TWICE in 9 seasons.

He's missed 2 games or more in 7 of those 9 seasons.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 11:23 AM
It beats option C which is signing Ford to a long term deal.

If they have no intention of trading him out of the tag, then signing him is probably the better play. Get the 2019 cap relief and give him a contract that protects them against him getting hurt again.

Just tagging him so that he can play is asking for 2019 to be yet another year of "almost got there".

O.city
02-20-2019, 11:26 AM
Since 2011, his sophomore year in college, he's been injured FOURTEEN times by my count. Both knees (one more than once and caused him to miss the combine), an abdominal injury that caused him to miss half a season, a groin twice (once in college, once here), 3 back injuries, 2 back surgeries, and various minor dings.

He's been available for an entire season TWICE in 9 seasons between college and pro. He's missed an entire season with injury TWICE in 9 seasons.

He's missed 2 games or more in 7 of those 9 seasons.

Flip side though, how many guys play every game in a season that often?

Like I said yesterday, as long as I'm getting 14 games plus out of you when you aren't a QB, I'd consider that ok. Just the nature of the game, guys are gonna get beat up.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 11:29 AM
Flip side though, how many guys play every game in a season that often?

Like I said yesterday, as long as I'm getting 14 games plus out of you when you aren't a QB, I'd consider that ok. Just the nature of the game, guys are gonna get beat up.

It's really not worth arguing about anymore. I hope like all get out that I'm wrong about this.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 11:32 AM
Since 2011, his sophomore year in college, he's been injured FOURTEEN times by my count. Both knees (one more than once and caused him to miss the combine), an abdominal injury that caused him to miss half a season, a groin twice (once in college, once here), 3 back injuries, 2 back surgeries, and various minor dings.

He's been available for an entire season TWICE in 9 seasons between college and pro. He's missed an entire season with injury TWICE in 9 seasons.

He's missed 2 games or more in 7 of those 9 seasons.

Why would anyone care about what Dee Ford did or didn’t do in college? I care about what he’s done in his time with us which is play in 14+ games 4/5 seasons.

Also your last stat is definitely incorrect seeing as how he’s played in 15+ games for us in 3/5 seasons with the Chiefs alone. The 4th season being 14 games played. You realize Dee Fords injury history in his first 5 years with the Chiefs. Dee Ford has played in more games in his first 5 seasons with the Chiefs than Kelce did, we’re you singing this tune about Kelce when he had to be re-signed?

O.city
02-20-2019, 11:32 AM
It's really not worth arguing about anymore. I hope like all get out that I'm wrong about this.

I'm basing a lot of my argument or discussion around the fact that i'm pretty sure they want to keep him on the tag anyway.

I get it, whether it's necessarily what i'd do or not.

MAHOMO 4 LIFE!
02-20-2019, 11:42 AM
I believe Houston will restructure. He loves it here. I mean the man was crying after they lost vs the Pats and just stared at his locker for a hour straight

RunKC
02-20-2019, 11:46 AM
If they have no intention of trading him out of the tag, then signing him is probably the better play. Get the 2019 cap relief and give him a contract that protects them against him getting hurt again.

Just tagging him so that he can play is asking for 2019 to be yet another year of "almost got there".

Imagine if Houston restructures and a team like the Packers talk to Veach at the combine about Ford?

Worst case is probably their 2nd (44) and their 4th rd comp in that trade.

That would put us at 5 picks in the top 92 and 4 in the top 64.

Options open up far more at 44. That’s probably where you can get an Amani Hooker or go TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant in rd 1 is possible bc you have three 2nd rd picks.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 11:48 AM
I believe Houston will restructure. He loves it here. I mean the man was crying after they lost vs the Pats and just stared at his locker for a hour straight

His agent says no.

We'll see.

He also doesn't really fit anywhere but RDE, where we're going to play Ford.

He's not big enough for LDE.

He's not a SAM, where he'll be in coverage 90% of pass snaps.

I think he's gone. I think he knew that was likely and that's why he sat and stared at his locker for an hour.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 11:49 AM
Imagine if Houston restructures and a team like the Packers talk to Veach at the combine about Ford?

Worst case is probably their 2nd (44) and their 4th rd comp in that trade.

That would put us at 5 picks in the top 92 and 4 in the top 64.

Options open up far more at 44. That’s probably where you can get an Amani Hooker or go TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant in rd 1 is possible bc you have three 2nd rd picks.


That would be cool. I'd honestly rather keep Houston and trade Ford.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:01 PM
His agent says no.

We'll see.

He also doesn't really fit anywhere but RDE, where we're going to play Ford.

He's not big enough for LDE.

He's not a SAM, where he'll be in coverage 90% of pass snaps.

I think he's gone. I think he knew that was likely and that's why he sat and stared at his locker for an hour.

How ironic that he won't be around for another Super Bowl run and his last good chance was spoiled by the guy they'd rather keep over him. All of my other Dee Ford rants aside, it just doesn't seem fair.

staylor26
02-20-2019, 12:06 PM
His agent says no.

We'll see.

He also doesn't really fit anywhere but RDE, where we're going to play Ford.

He's not big enough for LDE.

He's not a SAM, where he'll be in coverage 90% of pass snaps.

I think he's gone. I think he knew that was likely and that's why he sat and stared at his locker for an hour.

Where’d you see/hear this?

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 12:06 PM
His agent says no.

We'll see.

He also doesn't really fit anywhere but RDE, where we're going to play Ford.

He's not big enough for LDE.

He's not a SAM, where he'll be in coverage 90% of pass snaps.

I think he's gone. I think he knew that was likely and that's why he sat and stared at his locker for an hour.

Yeah he’s not big enough to play the position Osi Umenyiora played in the same defense. Great take.

Shoes
02-20-2019, 12:07 PM
Imagine if Houston restructures and a team like the Packers talk to Veach at the combine about Ford?

Worst case is probably their 2nd (44) and their 4th rd comp in that trade.

That would put us at 5 picks in the top 92 and 4 in the top 64.

Options open up far more at 44. That’s probably where you can get an Amani Hooker or go TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant in rd 1 is possible bc you have three 2nd rd picks.

My argument against this is that the Chiefs have to put themselves in the best position to win a Super Bowl while Mahomes is on his rookie contract. All those picks are nice but it's not easy to duplicate Ford's production with any number of rookies or a replacement via free agency. The pass rush was one of the best in the league (if not THE best) with Ford/Houston/Jones being the catalysts.

I think they can improve the secondary while still paying Dee Ford. Once Mahomes comes off his rookie contract then maybe Ford is a luxury you can't afford, but I think for now you want him in the fold for the next 2 seasons, with maybe a 3rd season being an option.


EDIT- If the dilemma is in regards to keeping one of Ford/Houston then I understand your take much more. Houston + the draft capital or Dee Ford. In that instance I agree with what you're saying. Not too familiar with Spagnuolo's defense but it does seem that having both Ford/Houston might be a bit redundant in his scheme.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:09 PM
Yeah he’s not big enough to play the position Osi Umenyiora played in the same defense. Great take.


He played WEAK SIDE. Other than in the '4 aces' all DE thing Spagnuolo did on passing downs.

So, yeah, totally reasonable take. Thanks for your sarcasm.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 12:10 PM
He played WEAK SIDE.

My fault I misread your post. Thought you were talking about Ford.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:12 PM
My argument against this is that the Chiefs have to put themselves in the best position to win a Super Bowl while Mahomes is on his rookie contract. All those picks are nice but it's not easy to duplicate Ford's production with any number of rookies or a replacement via free agency. The pass rush was one of the best in the league (if not THE best) with Ford/Houston/Jones being the catalysts.

And despite that awesome pass rush, they fell short. If they can't upgrade the secondary because they have too much money wrapped up in Ford, it's all for naught.

I think they can improve the secondary while still paying Dee Ford. Once Mahomes comes off his rookie contract then maybe Ford is a luxury you can't afford, but I think for now you want him in the fold for the next 2 seasons, with maybe a 3rd season being an option.

To do this, you'd need to give Ford a contract. Tagging him isn't going to give you more than 1 year. As for improving the secondary and keeping Ford, I don't necessarily agree but I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:13 PM
My argument against this is that the Chiefs have to put themselves in the best position to win a Super Bowl while Mahomes is on his rookie contract. All those picks are nice but it's not easy to duplicate Ford's production with any number of rookies or a replacement via free agency. The pass rush was one of the best in the league (if not THE best) with Ford/Houston/Jones being the catalysts.

I think they can improve the secondary while still paying Dee Ford. Once Mahomes comes off his rookie contract then maybe Ford is a luxury you can't afford, but I think for now you want him in the fold for the next 2 seasons, with maybe a 3rd season being an option.

well, you're going to have to pay one of them, but I don't think you can pay both. I think Ford is faster; when he wins, it's quick. I think Houston's better overall and just as productive, but not as fast obviously.

It's probably going to be Ford, but either way, they're going to have to draft a pass rusher high because i dont think either is here in 2020.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:13 PM
My fault I misread your post. Thought you were talking about Ford.

Great take.

Hammock Parties
02-20-2019, 12:15 PM
I'm all for change.

I'm not for building a defense around a guy that can't stay healthy.

Everything is a risk in the NFL.

It's a risk with Ford OR Houston.

It's a bigger risk of having no pass rush if you dump both of them.

The least amount of risk here is Ford. He's younger and has a better injury history in the last three seasons.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:17 PM
Everything is a risk in the NFL.

It's a risk with Ford OR Houston.

It's a bigger risk of having no pass rush if you dump both of them.

The least amount of risk here is Ford. He's younger and has a better injury history in the last three seasons.

If Ford gets hurt again, you have no pass rush AND you're out $15M of cap. That's the most likely scenario to me and that's why I'm so against it.

But again, I hope I'm wrong. Or they just trade him and we don't have to worry about it.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 12:19 PM
Great take.

Yeah I’ll take the L on that one lol. Should have looked at username, I know I agree with you on the majority of what you post.

I agree with you though and would prefer Speaks in that SDE role. I do think Houston wouldn’t be too bad at Sam but Spags would have to adjust his defense to bring 5 every play which I don’t think would be the absolute worst thing in today’s NFL. It’s not far off from what NE did these entire last playoffs.

IowaHawkeyeChief
02-20-2019, 12:20 PM
I'd tag and trade him for Luke Kuechly. Carolina switching to a 3-4 D.

egghead... one hit away from retirement.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:20 PM
If Ford gets hurt again, you have no pass rush AND you're out $15M of cap. That's the most likely scenario to me and that's why I'm so against it.

But again, I hope I'm wrong. Or they just trade him and we don't have to worry about it.

Well, they're both significant injury risks. They're both good pass rushers. They're both going to be expensive.

I doubt you can pay them both, so pick your poison.

I'm for moving on, but I get the many reasons why the team might be hesistant to do so.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:23 PM
Yeah I’ll take the L on that one lol. Should have looked at username, I know I agree with you on the majority of what you post.

I agree with you though and would prefer Speaks in that SDE role. I do think Houston wouldn’t be too bad at Sam but Spags would have to adjust his defense to bring 5 every play which I don’t think would be the absolute worst thing in today’s NFL.

Bringing 5 on every play with the same 5 won't work I don't think. If you're going to bring extra heat you've got to bring from everywhere, anywhere, and disguise it. If it's the same 5 it's too easy to diagnose.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:24 PM
Well, they're both significant injury risks. They're both good pass rushers. They're both going to be expensive.

I doubt you can pay them both, so pick your poison.

I'm for moving on, but I get the many reasons why the team might be hesistant to do so.

My problem is that by keeping Houston and/or Ford, you're sandbagging for 2020 and beyond by limiting your risk to 2019. The problem is that the risk is substantial due to the money involved.

I get that nobody wants to mortgage the future but I just don't agree. This is EXACT argument we had around the trade deadline last year, when so many people lambasted me about going all-in in 2018. In hindsight, we were inches away from a Super Bowl and I was 100% correct.

It's going to REALLY suck if they fall short again in 2019 because they did everything they could to keep Dee Ford.

O.city
02-20-2019, 12:26 PM
My problem is that by keeping Houston and/or Ford, you're sandbagging for 2020 and beyond by limiting your risk to 2019. The problem is that the risk is substantial due to the money involved.

I get that nobody wants to mortgage the future but I just don't agree. This is EXACT argument we had around the trade deadline last year, when so many people lambasted me about going all-in in 2018. In hindsight, we were inches away from a Super Bowl and I was 100% correct.

It's going to REALLY suck if they fall short again in 2019 because they did everything they could to keep Dee Ford.

They needed Ford to get that close last year.

They'll likely need him again this year.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:28 PM
They needed Ford to get that close last year.

They'll likely need him again this year.

I disagree. Mahomes was the reason they were there, he's the only essential piece.

O.city
02-20-2019, 12:29 PM
I disagree. Mahomes was the reason they were there, he's the only essential piece.

I'd imagine Ford having the year he did last year was pretty instrumental in a lot of the actual stops they got on defense and the turnovers created.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 12:30 PM
Bringing 5 on every play with the same 5 won't work I don't think. If you're going to bring extra heat you've got to bring from everywhere, anywhere, and disguise it. If it's the same 5 it's too easy to diagnose.

Yeah but O’Daniel does have the speed to likely be pretty good blitzing from a 4-3 as well. I think you could get Houston down to only dropping into coverage on 45% of his snaps or so. An extremely aggressive defense like that would be my preference, it’s what Sutton was terrible at and Spags has historically been pretty good at.

But for that 14 mil net or whatever it is you could also probably find a better fit for that role.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:31 PM
My problem is that by keeping Houston and/or Ford, you're sandbagging for 2020 and beyond by limiting your risk to 2019. The problem is that the risk is substantial due to the money involved.

I get that nobody wants to mortgage the future but I just don't agree. This is EXACT argument we had around the trade deadline last year, when so many people lambasted me about going all-in in 2018. In hindsight, we were inches away from a Super Bowl and I was 100% correct.

It's going to REALLY suck if they fall short again in 2019 because they did everything they could to keep Dee Ford.


Look I don't really like any of the options other than moving on because they all have you right back in the same boat next year. I would rather lock up a good young player that fits without an injury history.

No matter which way you go, Houston always misses 4 or 5 games. Ford usually misses a lot of time. They're both expensive, and they're both probably not in the long term plans.

I don't think Dee Ford is going to be THE PROBLEM, I think it's likely we'd have had to pay any good pass rushing DE near that amount of money anyway.

Chief Roundup
02-20-2019, 12:32 PM
My problem is that by keeping Houston and/or Ford, you're sandbagging for 2020 and beyond by limiting your risk to 2019. The problem is that the risk is substantial due to the money involved.

I get that nobody wants to mortgage the future but I just don't agree. This is EXACT argument we had around the trade deadline last year, when so many people lambasted me about going all-in in 2018. In hindsight, we were inches away from a Super Bowl and I was 100% correct.

It's going to REALLY suck if they fall short again in 2019 because they did everything they could to keep Dee Ford.

If we are going to make it a priority to "stop the run" keeping 3 out of 5 players that were on the line of scrimmage makes it seem like they are just giving the run defense lip service. Then it is specially curious when the 2 they are moving on from is Houston and Bailey which were the 2 best run defenders on that line.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 12:33 PM
I'd imagine Ford having the year he did last year was pretty instrumental in a lot of the actual stops they got on defense and the turnovers created.

The fact that he had the most FF in a season in the last 5 years should be something that gains higher consideration, that’s a major game changer.

Chris Meck
02-20-2019, 12:34 PM
Yeah but O’Daniel does have the speed to likely be pretty good blitzing from a 4-3 as well. I think you could get Houston down to only dropping into coverage on 45% of his snaps or so. An extremely aggressive defense like that would be my preference, it’s what Sutton was terrible at and Spags has historically been pretty good at.

But for that 14 mil net or whatever it is you could also probably find a better fit for that role.

yeah it's just too much money for what is not his best attribute. He's not a great cover guy. He can do it some, but that's not $21 million well spent.

Chief Roundup
02-20-2019, 12:38 PM
I'd imagine Ford having the year he did last year was pretty instrumental in a lot of the actual stops they got on defense and the turnovers created.

Well of course, but we have seen first hand with the Chiefs that that ole top defense means squat in the post season.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 12:39 PM
Yeah but O’Daniel does have the speed to likely be pretty good blitzing from a 4-3 as well. I think you could get Houston down to only dropping into coverage on 45% of his snaps or so. An extremely aggressive defense like that would be my preference, it’s what Sutton was terrible at and Spags has historically been pretty good at.

But for that 14 mil net or whatever it is you could also probably find a better fit for that role.

Down to 45%?

45% would be a 20% increase over his most coverage snaps in a season.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 01:25 PM
Down to 45%?

45% would be a 20% increase over his most coverage snaps in a season.

Down in relativity to the average Sam LB in a 4-3, not relative to what Justin Houston did in a 3-4.

Keep trying.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 01:26 PM
Down in relativity to the average Sam LB in a 4-3, not relative to what Justin Houston did in a 3-4.

Keep trying.

Justin Houston has NEVER been in coverage more than 25% of his snaps for a season. The average 3-4 OLB is about 5%. Houston's coverage snaps were inflated by Sutton but NEVER above 25%. That's a fact.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 01:27 PM
Nevermind, I wasn't understanding your point at all. Duh. ROFL

Chargem
02-20-2019, 01:28 PM
The fact that he had the most FF in a season in the last 5 years should be something that gains higher consideration, that’s a major game changer.

Forced fumbles aren't really a reliable statistic though, you would expect it to vary wildly year on year and you can't know how much of the last year was skill and how much was luck.

Sacks and pressure obviously has a symbiotic relationship with coverage and scheme. You can have a worse pass rush this next year but if via scheme and coverage you make the QB hold the ball a second longer than last year, sack figures won't take a step backwards.

Kiimo
02-20-2019, 01:28 PM
htismaqe I have disagreed with you a lot over Ford but if the Chiefs really could somehow turn him into Landon Collins I wouldn't hate it.

If Berry miraculously comes back healthy you can just forget about throwing deep on this team ever again.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 01:30 PM
htismaqe I have disagreed with you a lot over Ford but if the Chiefs really could somehow turn him into Landen Collins I wouldn't hate it.

If Berry miraculously comes back healthy you can just forget about throwing deep on this team ever again.

If I'm being honest, it's just my SAD combined with the typical Chiefs fan offseason angst.

We have Mahomes but man, it still seems like some of this stuff is so "because Chiefs".

I can just see Ford going down next year and us losing in the playoffs, AGAIN.

htismaqe
02-20-2019, 01:31 PM
And I honestly don't think Berry will ever be healthy again. He's broken. Permanently.

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 01:39 PM
Houston only fits as a RDE, same as Ford.

He's not a SAM unless you want to see him in coverage more than not. 4-3 linebackers cover more than rush.

Houston fits as a DE, exactly.

Ford.. ehh.. I'm not so sure where he will fit, except as a rush specialist.

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 01:44 PM
Justin Houston has NEVER been in coverage more than 25% of his snaps for a season. The average 3-4 OLB is about 5%. Houston's coverage snaps were inflated by Sutton but NEVER above 25%. That's a fact.

Never for a season.. there were games, where he dropped back FAR more than 25% though.. often some of our biggest games.

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 01:46 PM
And I honestly don't think Berry will ever be healthy again. He's broken. Permanently.

Which is why I think the smart move is to cut ties with Berry and try to keep both Houston and Ford, at least on a one year tag.

Tribal Warfare
02-20-2019, 01:59 PM
Everything is a risk in the NFL.

It's a risk with Ford OR Houston.

It's a bigger risk of having no pass rush if you dump both of them.

The least amount of risk here is Ford. He's younger and has a better injury history in the last three seasons.

Ford was put on IR in 2017

RunKC
02-20-2019, 02:01 PM
And I honestly don't think Berry will ever be healthy again. He's broken. Permanently.

I think Veach knows this too. Too much smoke around the Chiefs “deciding what to do” with him for something not to happen IMO.

YontsRBake
02-20-2019, 02:17 PM
Houston fits as a DE, exactly.

Ford.. ehh.. I'm not so sure where he will fit, except as a rush specialist.

Ford fits the scheme better than Houston. As he said the spot that each one fit the best is WDE, something that Ford is the better fit for due to his speed.

staylor26
02-20-2019, 02:28 PM
I think Veach knows this too. Too much smoke around the Chiefs “deciding what to do” with him for something not to happen IMO.

When have they said this about Berry?

Iconic
02-20-2019, 02:39 PM
So it looks like we could very well end up with everyone from last year returning. Speaks playing end on the strong side, Ford the weak side, Nandi at 1 tech, Jones at 3, Houston at Sam, Hitchens at Mike, and O'Daniel playing Will.

Kind of eerie how our personal fit like a cookie cutter into the 4-3. Starting to think the conspiracy theories about Veach drafting Speaks for an eventual scheme shift aren't all that far fetched.

I still seriously believe in Tanoh as well. I think he could replace Houston as a Sam or Ford post-tag if they actually give the dude a chance. Could be our Julius Peppers if they stopped treating him like the red-headed stepchild

Kiimo
02-20-2019, 02:42 PM
Ford fits the scheme better than Houston. As he said the spot that each one fit the best is WDE, something that Ford is the better fit for due to his speed.

You realize that half of him fitting the scheme is run defense and setting an edge, two things Houston is probably three times as good at.

Pitt Gorilla
02-20-2019, 02:50 PM
So it looks like we could very well end up with everyone from last year returning. Speaks playing end on the strong side, Ford the weak side, Nandi at 1 tech, Jones at 3, Houston at Sam, Hitchens at Mike, and O'Daniel playing Will.

Kind of eerie how our personal fit like a cookie cutter into the 4-3. Starting to think the conspiracy theories about Veach drafting Speaks for an eventual scheme shift aren't all that far fetched.

I still seriously believe in Tanoh as well. I think he could replace Houston as a Sam or Ford post-tag if they actually give the dude a chance. Could be our Julius Peppers if they stopped treating him like the red-headed stepchildAgree with this entire post.

New World Order
02-20-2019, 02:57 PM
So it looks like we could very well end up with everyone from last year returning. Speaks playing end on the strong side, Ford the weak side, Nandi at 1 tech, Jones at 3, Houston at Sam, Hitchens at Mike, and O'Daniel playing Will.

Kind of eerie how our personal fit like a cookie cutter into the 4-3. Starting to think the conspiracy theories about Veach drafting Speaks for an eventual scheme shift aren't all that far fetched.

I still seriously believe in Tanoh as well. I think he could replace Houston as a Sam or Ford post-tag if they actually give the dude a chance. Could be our Julius Peppers if they stopped treating him like the red-headed stepchild

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/yiooZuibi6KSA" width="480" height="198" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-yiooZuibi6KSA">via GIPHY</a></p>

ChiefGator
02-20-2019, 03:04 PM
Ford won't hold up on the defensive line at all. Houston is much more suited for that.

Tribal Warfare
02-20-2019, 03:06 PM
Ford won't hold up on the defensive line at all. Houston is much more suited for that.

This

Shaid
02-20-2019, 03:15 PM
This Dee Ford news really crosses the line.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/oOX5qIDkzDjeo" width="480" height="480" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/friends-reactiongifs-oOX5qIDkzDjeo">via GIPHY</a></p>

In58men
03-02-2019, 03:58 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190302/9669b6a9e2027e223e93d4d4a36e25d8.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Iconic
03-02-2019, 04:15 PM
If we walk out of this with both Houston and Ford traded I'd be hyped. Tons of cap room and picks for Spags to build whatever the bloody hell he wants.

TambaBerry
03-02-2019, 04:17 PM
Please please please trade Ford

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-02-2019, 04:18 PM
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

Tribal Warfare
03-02-2019, 04:26 PM
Please please please trade Ford

The Chiefs have interviews with Jachai Polite and Montez Sweat in the combine

tmax63
03-02-2019, 04:26 PM
You reckon that means they got a pretty good nibble on a JH trade scenario? Keeping both and spending over 35 mil for 2 DE's definitely doesn't work.

TambaBerry
03-02-2019, 04:30 PM
You reckon that means they got a pretty good nibble on a JH trade scenario? Keeping both and spending over 35 mil for 2 DE's definitely doesn't work.

I think Ford gives you a better return so maybe trade him and keep Houston

scho63
03-02-2019, 04:31 PM
Find the NOT Q

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQGQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 04:51 PM
For those who want both Houston and Ford gone this year, what’s your plan to replace their production in 2019? How do you make those two moves and sell your locker room on being all in to win a championship? I don’t see it.

You’ve gotta keep one. We literally have no proven edge rushers in place behind them.

Tribal Warfare
03-02-2019, 04:55 PM
For those who want both Houston and Ford gone this year, what’s your plan to replace their production in 2019? How do you make those two moves and sell your locker room on being all in to win a championship? I don’t see it.

You’ve gotta keep one. We literally have no proven edge rushers in place behind them.

Because Mahomes bro

Chargem
03-02-2019, 04:56 PM
For those who want both Houston and Ford gone this year, what’s your plan to replace their production in 2019? How do you make those two moves and sell your locker room on being all in to win a championship? I don’t see it.

You’ve gotta keep one. We literally have no proven edge rushers in place behind them.

Sort of depends what you get for them though? If you get enough draft capital maybe you're happy replacing with a 1st round or early 2nd round pick on one side and Speaks on the other.

Hog's Gone Fishin
03-02-2019, 04:56 PM
Getting rid of good players is not the way to build a team. Damn I wish Houston would just restructure and Ford sign a team friendly deal.

Tribal Warfare
03-02-2019, 04:58 PM
Sort of depends what you get for them though? If you get enough draft capital maybe you're happy replacing with a 1st round or early 2nd round pick on one side and Speaks on the other.

Got to factor how they perceive Kpassagnon's development and possible success in the new scheme

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 04:59 PM
Sort of depends what you get for them though? If you get enough draft capital maybe you're happy replacing with a 1st round or early 2nd round pick on one side and Speaks on the other.

Even in said scenario, the odds of Speaks or a rookie producing in 2019 on the same level as Ford or Houston are very low IMO.

I mean, you’d better get some SIGNIFICANT improvements in other spots if that’s the right they decide to go.

TambaBerry
03-02-2019, 04:59 PM
They sure did a lot against the Patriots lol

Red Dawg
03-02-2019, 05:01 PM
Don't like it. Hopefully he gets traded.

Sick of tagging players. Bill never does.

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 05:01 PM
They sure did a lot against the Patriots lol

That’s coaching, plain and simple. Brady had the ball out in under 2 seconds all night because he knew where to go every single time.

smithandrew051
03-02-2019, 05:05 PM
That’s coaching, plain and simple. Brady had the ball out in under 2 seconds all night because he knew where to go every single time.

I think you said it before and you were absolutely right.

The Patriots dynasty is more about Belichick than any other part of that franchise, Brady included. BB is incredible.

RunKC
03-02-2019, 05:06 PM
For those who want both Houston and Ford gone this year, what’s your plan to replace their production in 2019? How do you make those two moves and sell your locker room on being all in to win a championship? I don’t see it.

You’ve gotta keep one. We literally have no proven edge rushers in place behind them.

If a team gives us a 1st or even a 2nd +4th, I’m trading Ford. That’s more picks in a damn good defensive class and close to $16 million of free cap space becoming open.

That much could easily sign a really good player.

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 05:07 PM
I think you said it before and you were absolutely right.

The Patriots dynasty is more about Belichick than any other part of that franchise, Brady included. BB is incredible.

Bill would have won a SB with Garropolo if he had kept him within the first 3 or 4 years. Guaranteed IMO.

His defenses, his overall coaching, it’s the greatest luxury for a QB in all of sports.

Easy 6
03-02-2019, 05:11 PM
<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/oOX5qIDkzDjeo" width="480" height="480" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/friends-reactiongifs-oOX5qIDkzDjeo">via GIPHY</a></p>

LMAO SNR with a great quip, and you had the perfect reply

This thread is delivering, Iconics post has some interesting food for thought

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 05:34 PM
I think Ford gives you a better return so maybe trade him and keep Houston


I think of it like this-

I doubt either is in the long term plan; due to age and injury issues.

It literally costs about the same to keep either; it's actually slightly cheaper to keep Houston, believe it or not due to the $7 mill in dead money if you cut or trade him.

I think both are RDE's in a 4-3. I think Houston is the better all-around player, Ford is the better pass rusher but a poor run defender. Two guys, one position.

I'd move both, sign Trey Flowers and draft Jaylon Ferguson, but that's just me.

I think we're keeping one and trading the other; whichever gets the best return is gone, I think.

Iconic
03-02-2019, 05:35 PM
For those who want both Houston and Ford gone this year, what’s your plan to replace their production in 2019? How do you make those two moves and sell your locker room on being all in to win a championship? I don’t see it.

You’ve gotta keep one. We literally have no proven edge rushers in place behind them.

It's not hard to sell the locker room when you replace those players with different ones that simply fit better. You really don't have to keep either at their current cost.

Why are we trying to fit square pegs into a round holes? For familiarities sake? Truth is if Spags saw them both as a perfect scheme fit neither would be on the trading block right now.

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 05:36 PM
Got to factor how they perceive Kpassagnon's development and possible success in the new scheme

I think Kpass is the dark horse this offseason. I think it's very possible he flourishes.

Chief Northman
03-02-2019, 05:44 PM
I think Kpass is the dark horse this offseason. I think it's very possible he flourishes.

Sigh.

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 05:48 PM
Sigh.


just because he made a shitty OLB in coverage? Come now. He's a hell of a physical specimen and we've hired an excellent d-line coach. If anybody can make something of him, it's Daly.

I'm not saying I'm banking on him. I'm not penciling him into the starting lineup. I'm just saying that's a lot of raw ability there; and I'm not throwing him on the scrap heap just because Sutton didn't know what to do with him.

MAHOMO 4 LIFE!
03-02-2019, 06:33 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Can confirm <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AdamSchefter</a>&#39;s report that the Chiefs will place the franchise tag on Dee Ford today. Ford&#39;s salary will be close to $19 million, since he was a LB last year.<br><br>The odds the Chiefs trade Ford at this point, I&#39;m told, are still low.<a href="https://t.co/Sor3OsAXIV">https://t.co/Sor3OsAXIV</a></p>&mdash; Nate Taylor (@ByNateTaylor) <a href="https://twitter.com/ByNateTaylor/status/1101972443617464321?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 2, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

BossChief
03-02-2019, 06:33 PM
1) this draft has tons of pass rushers and the value from Ford/Houston probably isn’t higher in the future
2) this FA doesn’t have much in CBs
3) this FA has a few good safeties and we need 2

I bet Veach feels he can replace Houston/Ford in the draft for peanuts in cap and use the savings to improve the secondary in FA and the trade market with picks while saving money to bolster other positions.

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 07:01 PM
It's not hard to sell the locker room when you replace those players with different ones that simply fit better. You really don't have to keep either at their current cost.

Why are we trying to fit square pegs into a round holes? For familiarities sake? Truth is if Spags saw them both as a perfect scheme fit neither would be on the trading block right now.

Is the scheme stuff not overblown though? The truth is, the two DEs that start will be rushing off of the edges of a 4-2-5/4-1-6 75+ percent of the time anyways.

I think Veach is trying to see if someone will overpay for either player in a trade because he knows they’re both gone after 2019, not because they won’t fit the scheme.

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 07:13 PM
This report to me reads plain and simple—we’re tagging Ford, we’d be just fine keeping him since Houston is on the way out.... but if you wanna blow us away with an offer, he’s yours.

pugsnotdrugs19
03-02-2019, 07:18 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

BUT, there’s a good chance that their 2020-2022ish chances go up so long as they make good picks in the draft with the returning pieces.

UChieffyBugger
03-02-2019, 07:23 PM
Getting Ford and Houston off the books would be quite impressive by Veach. Considering the seasons both just had, I believe someone is bound to make a move for one or both as proven rushers don't grow on trees these days.

UChieffyBugger
03-02-2019, 07:29 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

BUT, there’s a good chance that their 2020-2022ish chances go up so long as they make good picks in the draft with the returning pieces.

Weren't the pats near the bottom of the league where sacks were concerned last season? So I don't agree. Jones will be there, Speaks will hopefully improve in his rightful position and we'll see what Veach does In FA and the draft to bring In more help. Building a young/cheap defense now would probably allow Pat to have more experienced skill players at his disposal once his contract kicks in so it makes sense.

JD10367
03-02-2019, 08:14 PM
Weren't the pats near the bottom of the league where sacks were concerned last season?

Pats were 21st in defensive YPG but 7th in PPG. 30th in sacks to KC's #1, but 3rd in INTs. The prevailing theory is that a strong pass rush can negate bad DB play but the Chiefs and Pats defenses kind of proved the opposite point.

tmax63
03-02-2019, 09:02 PM
I read a list of the franchise tag prices somewhere earlier today and if I remember correctly the OL tag is 15.4 mil.

bricks
03-02-2019, 09:22 PM
Random guys but thought I’d ask....Would any of you be open to trading Dee Ford for Oliver Vernon?

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 09:24 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

BUT, there’s a good chance that their 2020-2022ish chances go up so long as they make good picks in the draft with the returning pieces.

only if they don't replace with a player ready to carry the load in 2019.

I know, I know, but there ARE a few guys that will cost less than either that will be available in FA.

Chief Northman
03-02-2019, 09:44 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

BUT, there’s a good chance that their 2020-2022ish chances go up so long as they make good picks in the draft with the returning pieces.

I think Ford stays, unless they get a great trade offer.
Maybe Daly/Spags want more balance out of their DE’s and are convincing Veach to make a play for Flowers? There has to be a FA plan both with Ford in the equation, and one without.
Vinny Curry is a cheaper option who could be a good mentor for Speaks/Kpass while still productive.

chiefzilla1501
03-02-2019, 09:48 PM
This whole offseason seems very off Reid and I love it. Reid is known to be loyal to a fault. In fact, he went to war with eagles execs who didn't want to keep around a lot of Reid's guys.

In this offseason, Reid fired his DC. Demoted his son. And is putting key team leaders on the market. Can tell the guy knows how damn close he is to pulling off a super bowl.

The Franchise
03-02-2019, 09:50 PM
If we can get rid of Ford, Houston and Berry in one offseason....I’ll be fucking ecstatic.

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 09:52 PM
I think Ford stays, unless they get a great trade offer.
Maybe Daly/Spags want more balance out of their DE’s and are convincing Veach to make a play for Flowers? There has to be a FA plan both with Ford in the equation, and one without.
Vinny Curry is a cheaper option who could be a good mentor for Speaks/Kpass while still productive.

Vinny Curry plus a top 60 pick at DE would be a pretty good situation, for now, and for 2020 and on.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-02-2019, 10:07 PM
If we can get rid of Ford, Houston and Berry in one offseason....I’ll be fucking ecstatic.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e6432114c427f1ed9a9c229f74e9a10a/tenor.gif?itemid=4882280

Iowanian
03-02-2019, 10:07 PM
This makes total sense to me.

Ford has had exactly one good season where he stayed healthy. Signing him long term is a risk and I don't trust him. Trade him.

Houston is underperforming his contract and I'm not confident he earns his keep as SAM either. He just doesn't look motivated anymore to me.

Those picks and cap space give the Chiefs muscle to fix the D the way slags wants to do it.

BryanBusby
03-02-2019, 10:08 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

BUT, there’s a good chance that their 2020-2022ish chances go up so long as they make good picks in the draft with the returning pieces.
That's a pretty definite statement when we wouldn't even know what respective moves they would make in response.

Iowanian
03-02-2019, 10:11 PM
Where does Ford truly fit in this defensive change?

If they can move him I will be happy.

Chris Meck
03-02-2019, 10:11 PM
I would just say this-
think about having a #1, three #2's, and two #3's.

Plus enough cap room to sign a Landon Collins, a KJ Wright, and a Vinny Curry. Or relative players of your personal choice.

I mean...you could totally revamp your defense in a couple of months and be solid for the next few years there.

I'm just saying. That'd be a helluva haul.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-02-2019, 10:14 PM
Getting rid of Houston and Ford gets rid of Hobospirit29's prime play buddies. Maybe that will inspire him to follow suit. I'll take this coaching staff, Chris Jones, and "22 off the street" as my chances for launching this defense and getting it done in 2019 over more entitlement and lack of effort.

htismaqe
03-02-2019, 11:31 PM
And I’ll be honest guys—if they get rid of both Houston and Ford, I think their 2019 SB chances take a hit.

If they franchise Ford and he gets hurt again, their 2019 SB chances are virtually nil.

I'd rather have a lesser chance than no chance. Get rid of him.

bricks
03-02-2019, 11:49 PM
If they franchise Ford and he gets hurt again, their 2019 SB chances are virtually nil.

I'd rather have a lesser chance than no chance. Get rid of him.

Don’t be so negative.

There is a lot to feel good about with respect to this team.

Come on man create some good aura as a fan. Do your part. When I hear messages like the one you just stated above it makes me depressed.

What if they have some untapped hidden potential that we don’t know about as fans? Don’t be so quick to make conclusions based off one circumstance or scenario. You don’t know if thats going to be the case dude.

New World Order
03-02-2019, 11:52 PM
Starting to get the feeling that both Houston and Ford will be gone.

I'm guessing if Ford leaves, Veach already has a plan in place such as using the Ford pick on a pass rusher. He could also possibly use the Houston pick to swing a trade for someone like Pierre Paul. He knows Spags' system and is still very capable.

BlackOp
03-03-2019, 12:16 AM
I'm actually interested in seeing Ford play in a primarily 4-3 defense....I think it plays to his strengths.

3-4 seems to favor Houston...Ford was lost when he first started.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-03-2019, 12:19 AM
Don’t be so negative.

There is a lot to feel good about with respect to this team.

Come on man create some good aura as a fan. Do your part. When I hear messages like the one you just stated above it makes me depressed.

What if they have some untapped hidden potential that we don’t know about as fans? Don’t be so quick to make conclusions based off one circumstance or scenario. You don’t know if thats going to be the case dude.

There's a lot to be positive about, we're just scouring the softer elements of the team and looking for creative ways to circumvent the rather nasty situation we find ourselves in cap-wise.
As to Ford, the record pretty much speaks for itself. We have one good season of play and a lot of filler. His track record of health is poor at worst, questionable at best. And his stock is high right now, prime for the market.

I trust Spags and Co. to do what is right.

Starting to get the feeling that both Houston and Ford will be gone.

I'm guessing if Ford leaves, Veach already has a plan in place such as using the Ford pick on a pass rusher. He could also possibly use the Houston pick to swing a trade for someone like Pierre Paul. He knows Spags' system and is still very capable.

I'm getting the feeling Spags wants "his" players, the same way any coach would. I'm excited to see what they're going to do.

bricks
03-03-2019, 09:10 AM
There's a lot to be positive about, we're just scouring the softer elements of the team and looking for creative ways to circumvent the rather nasty situation we find ourselves in cap-wise.

Yeah I see that. And its harsh at times and gets way overblown. I can’t grasp a fan saying, how if one player gets hurt he’d rather see his team get worse?! Talk about giving up easily. Thats nonsense man. You Htis, get your gear on straight bro and head back out there and support your team better because thats not a good example of how to do it.


As to Ford, the record pretty much speaks for itself. We have one good season of play and a lot of filler. His track record of health is poor at worst, questionable at best. And his stock is high right now, prime for the market.

I agree with you on this part. He doesn’t have a good track history with respect to durability. I’d Trade him now while his value is high. Some food for thought actually; I think the Giants would be open to trades. Maybe Landon Collins for Dee Ford swap? It makes sense. They could possibly trade him and trade him here to play under spagnolo. If they’re gonna lose him may as well get something for him?

Buckweath
03-03-2019, 09:24 AM
Yeah I see that. And its harsh at times and gets way overblown. I can’t grasp a fan saying, how if one player gets hurt he’d rather see his team get worse?! Talk about giving up easily. Thats nonsense man. You Htis, get your gear on straight bro and head back out there and support your team better because thats not a good example of how to do it.




I agree with you on this part. He doesn’t have a good track history with respect to durability. I’d Trade him now while his value is high. Some food for thought actually; I think the Giants would be open to trades. Maybe Landon Collins for Dee Ford swap? It makes sense. They could possibly trade him and trade him here to play under spagnolo. If they’re gonna lose him may as well get something for him?

Why would you swap Ford for Collins when you could trade Ford for a pick and sign a top FA safety?

I am not even sure how swapping Ford for Collins would improve the team to begin with. In any case, Ford is not getting traded.

RunKC
03-03-2019, 09:28 AM
I could see this happening.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Exploring a Landon Collins for Dee Ford <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Giants</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> trade. Deals like this don’t often happen in NFL but there are about 10 legit reasons this makes perfect sense. I lay them all out and salary cap implications. <a href="https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo">https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NYGiants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NYGiants</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChiefsKingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChiefsKingdom</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NFLCombine?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NFLCombine</a></p>&mdash; Ryan Dunleavy (@rydunleavy) <a href="https://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1102203118119542784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Chiefs Moon
03-03-2019, 09:32 AM
Always trade or release a year or two early when the player's value is still high.

Hoover
03-03-2019, 09:40 AM
Makes plenty of sense

I think the Chiefs are going to be without the services of Ford, Houston, and Berry in 2019.

And I think they will be better off for it.

Rebuild the D with young cheap rooking contracts and sprinkle in some younger FAs

Collins goes a long way in fixing the secondary. Sign a FA CB before the draft and you can be pretty flexible in the draft.

O.city
03-03-2019, 09:42 AM
Mellinger just wrote an article that the chiefs are pretty much stuck with Berry this season m
I’d guess they’ll tag ford and trade him or Houston, whoever brings more

St. Patty's Fire
03-03-2019, 09:52 AM
I could see this happening.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Exploring a Landon Collins for Dee Ford <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Giants</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> trade. Deals like this don’t often happen in NFL but there are about 10 legit reasons this makes perfect sense. I lay them all out and salary cap implications. <a href="https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo">https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NYGiants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NYGiants</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChiefsKingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChiefsKingdom</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NFLCombine?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NFLCombine</a></p>&mdash; Ryan Dunleavy (@rydunleavy) <a href="https://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1102203118119542784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Been proposing this deal to my Giants friend for like 2 months.

Makes perfect sense for both team’s needs. Giants DESPERATELY need a guy who can get to the QB.

Sassy Squatch
03-03-2019, 10:02 AM
Good plan. Let's trade an elite passrushing for an elite box safety with middling coverage skills when we've already got Berry and we could get him in FA.

Buckweath
03-03-2019, 10:04 AM
Good plan. Let's trade an elite passrushing for an elite box safety with middling coverage skills when we've already got Berry and we could get him in FA.
Lol pretty much.

RunKC
03-03-2019, 10:16 AM
You could build a damn good young, cheap team by trading Ford for even a 2nd+4th. Then Houston would basically be off the books in 2020.

This is a great class to reload our team as a whole. DL, S, TE, OL and RB are all deep positions this year.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 10:23 AM
Mellinger just wrote an article that the chiefs are pretty much stuck with Berry this season m
I’d guess they’ll tag ford and trade him or Houston, whoever brings more

I simply don't think Mellinger is right there, IF he's capable of passing the physical. And if he's refusing surgery, he must be.

If they can't move on from Berry, I don't see a good way to make a move for Collins. That's just too much cap money that's not coming back if its spent (relevant in the rollover era).

I'm completely on board with a deal for Collins if it means that Berry is cut. I recognize the near term problems (the lack of true cap savings) but it creates a TON more cap space in 2020 and that's when we'll really need it since most of these early extensions don't see the real salary kicker until the following season.

Mellinger's being shortsighted in that article, IMO. The Chiefs absolutely can get away from Berry and they should, immediate sting be damned. It makes no sense to keep Berry, absorb another $7 million on this year's cap and STILL be facing a significant cap penalty in 2020.

He's just wrong.

O.city
03-03-2019, 10:32 AM
My main reason to believe he’s saying that is that he’s probably been told something similar

bricks
03-03-2019, 11:02 AM
Why would you swap Ford for Collins when you could trade Ford for a pick and sign a top FA safety?

I am not even sure how swapping Ford for Collins would improve the team to begin with. In any case, Ford is not getting traded.

Why would I do it? As others were saying it makes sense.

There are many benefits to making a trade like this. First off, it saves us a bit of money, capwise we would benefit from this trade in that it creates cap savings. If the Giants franchise Collins and trade him, thats an 11.5 million cap hit on our end whereas Dee Fords franchise tag costs them 15.4 million. Thats 4 million in savings right there.

Collins is familiar with Spagnuolo and his defensive philosophies, coaching style, schemes, etc....In fact, a lot of his success was due in part to playing under Spagnuolo. You’re not getting that from draft picks right away.

Lastly, Collins is one of the better box safeties in the league who is very solid in run support. Something the Chiefs could use desperately is a good run defender which we all know Ford isn’t that. Plus Collins is younger than Ford so there’s that.

If We could sacrifice a bit of passrush for a stud safety Im for it. Im confident that we could get the best of Speaks, Kpassagnon, Jones and even if they decide to use a draft pick for a passrusher, that this staff with Spagnuolo and Daly will get the best of those guys.

*To get quality, you have to give up quality.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:05 AM
Getting rid of Houston and Ford gets rid of Hobospirit29's prime play buddies. Maybe that will inspire him to follow suit. I'll take this coaching staff, Chris Jones, and "22 off the street" as my chances for launching this defense and getting it done in 2019 over more entitlement and lack of effort.

Any defense would play well with 23 guys on the field

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:06 AM
I could see this happening.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Exploring a Landon Collins for Dee Ford <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Giants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Giants</a> and <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> trade. Deals like this don’t often happen in NFL but there are about 10 legit reasons this makes perfect sense. I lay them all out and salary cap implications. <a href="https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo">https://t.co/GZYoOEiUeo</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NYGiants?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NYGiants</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChiefsKingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChiefsKingdom</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NFLCombine?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NFLCombine</a></p>&mdash; Ryan Dunleavy (@rydunleavy) <a href="https://twitter.com/rydunleavy/status/1102203118119542784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
This guy's been reading my posts

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 11:07 AM
Why would I do it? As others were saying it makes sense.

There are many benefits to making a trade like this. First off, it saves us a bit of money, capwise we would benefit from this trade in that it creates cap savings. If the Giants franchise Collins and trade him, thats an 11.5 million cap hit on our end whereas Dee Fords franchise tag costs them 15.4 million. Thats 4 million in savings right there.

Collins is familiar with Spagnuolo and his defensive philosophies, coaching style, schemes, etc....In fact, a lot of his success was due in part to playing under Spagnuolo. You’re not getting that from draft picks right away.

Lastly, Collins is one of the better box safeties in the league who is very solid in run support. Something the Chiefs could use desperately is a good run defender which we all know Ford isn’t that. Plus Collins is younger than Ford so there’s that.

If We could sacrifice a bit of passrush for a stud safety Im for it. Im confident that we could get the best of Speaks, Kpassagnon, Jones and even if they decide to use a draft pick for a passrusher, that this staff with Spagnuolo and Daly will get the best of those guys.

*To get quality, you have to give up quality.

But if you're not getting rid of Berry, you're trading Ford, an elite edge rusher, for Collins - a guy who really can't play alongside Berry because you have nobody capable of playing centerfield in that situation.

We're not sacrificing 'a bit of pass rush' by moving Dee Ford - we're trading one of the 10 best pure pass rushers in the league and a guy who was, by some measures, the absolute BEST in the league at generating overall pressures.

Speaks and K-Pass won't sniff what Ford did. And by taking Ford out of the equation, you're hurting Jones a great deal as well because there were many times that the attention Ford drew allowed Jones to get free.

You're hand-waiving the loss of probably the most impactful defensive player on our team in a trade for a guy who would be, at best, an awkward fit alongside our $16 million cap hit at safety.

Even if we could cut Berry, I wouldn't move Ford for Collins straight across. Ford could get you a late 1st or early 2nd, IMO. That's too much to give up for a box safety that you're going to end up making probably the highest paid safety in football.

I'd give up a late 3 or early 4 if we got one for Houston, but I'm not giving up the asset value of Ford. Especially if we also can't do anything to clear ourselves of Berry.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 11:09 AM
Been proposing this deal to my Giants friend for like 2 months.

Makes perfect sense for both team’s needs. Giants DESPERATELY need a guy who can get to the QB.

He's a Giants beat reporter.

Of course he'd like to add the most difficult defensive commodity in the league to get your hands on for a safety that doesn't appear to want to be there anymore.

Ford for Collins is too much to give up. Ford has a far bigger impact on a defense than Collins would.

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 11:10 AM
What about Collins and a 2nd or 3rd for Ford?

Bowser
03-03-2019, 11:10 AM
I'm still hoping we tag him and trade him, preferably to Green Bay for their #30 pick. Green Bay desperately needs a pass rusher, and we really need two first round draft picks.

Probably hoping for way too much in that scenario.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:11 AM
What about Collins and a 2nd or 3rd for Ford?

No way the giants even think about that. They wanted 2 2s for him in season

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 11:14 AM
No way the giants even think about that. They wanted 2 2s for him in season

In the middle of the season and after he’s stated that he won’t sign the franchise tag are two different times.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 11:15 AM
I'm still hoping we tag him and trade him, preferably to Green Bay for their #30 pick. Green Bay desperately needs a pass rusher, and we really need two first round draft picks.

Probably hoping for way too much in that scenario.

I really don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

We have Ford fatigue here because of what he WASN'T for 3-4 years. But I think folks are forgetting exactly what he was this season.

He was an absolutely elite pass-rusher. His technique is light years improved from 2-3 seasons ago. He can mix up moves and he's developed counter-moves (a huge improvement). He's developed the functional strength to beat guys with power when he needs to and knows how to turn speed into energy; makes him damn dangerous.

Ford will be a force as a Leo in this system, IMO. If we can't exact a very nice price for him, keep him. This idea that we should be thankful to get 2nd round value for him is silly, IMO. There just aren't a lot of pass-rushers that EVER hit the market and somebody will pay to get one if they think they're on the fringe of contending.

Seattle and GB absolutely fall in that range, IMO.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:15 AM
In the middle of the season and after he’s stated that he won’t sign the franchise tag are two different times.

True. I still don't think they are giving up a high pick and him for ford.

Hell there are people that think we'd take a 2 alone for Ford

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:16 AM
I think we should ask for 12 for ford and a 2, maybe throw in a later pick

RunKC
03-03-2019, 11:17 AM
Good plan. Let's trade an elite passrushing for an elite box safety with middling coverage skills when we've already got Berry and we could get him in FA.

It’s been reported that Collins is high on our priority list. I don’t like him that much either but it is what it is.

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 11:18 AM
I think we should ask for 12 for ford and a 2, maybe throw in a later pick

I’m good with that.

What do you do with Houston and Berry?

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 11:19 AM
I’m good with that.

What do you do with Houston and Berry?

Take what you can on Houston. Punt berry. Take the hit

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 11:20 AM
Take what you can on Houston. Punt berry. Take the hit

I’m all in.

Sign Collins in FA.
Draft Sweat at 12.
Draft Adderley at 29.

Chief Northman
03-03-2019, 11:28 AM
What some are forgetting is that Ford/Collins have to sign their tags in order to be traded. Collins has already threatened to sit out if the Giants tag him.

The more likely scenario is the Giants let him walk, and get a compensatory pick out of him. Chiefs will target him in FA. Ford stays in KC unless they get offered the equivalent of a 1st tound pick which is debatable right now.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 11:35 AM
What some are forgetting is that Ford/Collins have to sign their tags in order to be traded. Collins has already threatened to sit out if the Giants tag him.

The more likely scenario is the Giants let him walk, and get a compensatory pick out of him. Chiefs will target him in FA. Ford stays in KC unless they get offered the equivalent of a 1st tound pick which is debatable right now.

Yeah but Collins not signing the tender cuts both ways.

They still have his rights if they tender him and if he doesn't sign it, they'll get a 2020 credit for the cap space they don't end up spending on him. They actually have a little LESS risk due to his threat of not signing the tender. It may make it more likely that they tag him rather than less. Moreover, they can rescind it and walk away from him at any point if he refuses to sign it. They can do so in July after most teams have shot their wad and he may be getting nervous about his ability to get a long-term contract from someone.

Him leaving the tag out there unsigned may actually work to NYG's benefit in some ways.

TambaBerry
03-03-2019, 11:39 AM
How the fuck would ford get us the 12th pick?

staylor26
03-03-2019, 11:41 AM
LMAO

The same people that think Ford is an injury prone one trick pony think we can get a top 15 pick AND a 2nd?

Chief Northman
03-03-2019, 11:46 AM
LMAO

The same people that think Ford is an injury prone one trick pony think we can get a top 15 pick AND a 2nd?

No they are suggesting Ford + KC 2nd rounder for Green Bay #12

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 11:48 AM
LMAO

The same people that think Ford is an injury prone one trick pony think we can get a top 15 pick AND a 2nd?

What? It was trade Ford and our 2nd for the #12 pick.

BryanBusby
03-03-2019, 11:52 AM
I think if that's the best they can do, they should just keep him.

Baby Lee
03-03-2019, 11:55 AM
I really don't think that's an unreasonable ask.

We have Ford fatigue here because of what he WASN'T for 3-4 years. But I think folks are forgetting exactly what he was this season.

He was an absolutely elite pass-rusher. His technique is light years improved from 2-3 seasons ago. He can mix up moves and he's developed counter-moves (a huge improvement). He's developed the functional strength to beat guys with power when he needs to and knows how to turn speed into energy; makes him damn dangerous.

Ford will be a force as a Leo in this system, IMO. If we can't exact a very nice price for him, keep him. This idea that we should be thankful to get 2nd round value for him is silly, IMO. There just aren't a lot of pass-rushers that EVER hit the market and somebody will pay to get one if they think they're on the fringe of contending.

Seattle and GB absolutely fall in that range, IMO.

Yeah, I think we'd enjoy sending Dee off to GB about as much as the Eagles enjoyed watching Reggie White there all those years.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 11:56 AM
I think if that's the best they can do, they should just keep him.

I dunno man, that's getting HUGE value for Ford. That's the rough equivalent to the 18th or so pick. A late 2nd isn't gonna move you too far up in the first, especially when you get up near 10-12. Those are high value picks.

Though to be honest, if I could pull that trade off I'd immediately start shopping that 12 for another move back and try to recover a higher 2nd than we gave up. If you shell-gamed that out, you could end up with something like the Pittsburgh's 20 and their 52. That would be a MASSIVE haul for Ford; essentially a top 20 1st rounder and a small trade up in the 2nd (the rough equivalent of a comp 3).

So Ford for the 20th overall and a late 3rd? !@#$ing sold, man.

Chief Northman
03-03-2019, 11:57 AM
What? It was trade Ford and our 2nd for the #12 pick.

I’m conservative on Ford’s trade value, but that is a shit proposal:

Ford + pick #63 (276 pts on trade chart)

for Green Bay pick #12 (1200 pts on trade chart)

Valuing Ford as a low 1st rounder even calculates out to being 300+ points short of a balanced trade (the equivalent of a bottom third 2nd round pick).

Green Bay hangs up before Veach can finish his sentence....

Bowser
03-03-2019, 11:58 AM
I just have my doubts about Ford in a 4-3. I remember the days when the called Derrick Thomas "Falcon" and had him line up anywhere and everywhere trying to get pressure on the QB. I also remember all the draws and screens we would give up on 3rd and 5+ for first downs that got ran directly at Derrick. Dee Ford is no DT, so you can figure out my hesitation about wanting to keep him in this particular system.

However, Spags seems to want to employ an aggressive attacking front four with his defenses, so....

pugsnotdrugs19
03-03-2019, 12:00 PM
They’re not just gonna give Ford away. It’s gonna require a team to ‘overpay’ for him in KCs eyes to let him go IMO.

Houston is another story. They’d probably take whatever they can get.

Chief Northman
03-03-2019, 12:03 PM
They’re not just gonna give Ford away. It’s gonna require a team to ‘overpay’ for him in KCs eyes to let him go IMO.

Houston is another story. They’d probably take whatever they can get.

Pretty much.

I think a Houston trade is fantasy though. Teams will wait for a cut/release.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 12:04 PM
I just have my doubts about Ford in a 4-3. I remember the days when the called Derrick Thomas "Falcon" and had him line up anywhere and everywhere trying to get pressure on the QB. I also remember all the draws and screens we would give up on 3rd and 5+ for first downs that got ran directly at Derrick. Dee Ford is no DT, so you can figure out my hesitation about wanting to keep him in this particular system.

However, Spags seems to want to employ an aggressive attacking front four with his defenses, so....

But consider the value of the 'under' alignment that shades towards Ford. You now have Jones over there hopefully being assignment sound and helping drive that play out wide. And if it comes inside, Nnadi's a hell of a good run-defender.

Shifting the formation a bit can do a lot to protect there. My biggest concern isn't actually Ford - it's DoD. Because if Nnadi/Jones can't win their individual matchups outright and stop the play themselves, even a 'draw' in their matchups leaves DoD out there trying to finish that play and I'm not sure he has that in his toolbox.

Give me a better Will (Hitchens would actually seem to be a nice fit there but he may be needed elsewhere) and I'd be less nervous.

duncan_idaho
03-03-2019, 12:10 PM
But consider the value of the 'under' alignment that shades towards Ford. You now have Jones over there hopefully being assignment sound and helping drive that play out wide. And if it comes inside, Nnadi's a hell of a good run-defender.

Shifting the formation a bit can do a lot to protect there. My biggest concern isn't actually Ford - it's DoD. Because if Nnadi/Jones can't win their individual matchups outright and stop the play themselves, even a 'draw' in their matchups leaves DoD out there trying to finish that play and I'm not sure he has that in his toolbox.

Give me a better Will (Hitchens would actually seem to be a nice fit there but he may be needed elsewhere) and I'd be less nervous.


Lining up a SSLB over Ford seems like it would help in base sets... but lord that’s an awful lot to pay a one-dimensional player who has to be protected. And it only helps in bas3 set... in nickel or dime, you’re still susceptible to runs to that side.

If they move Ford and Houston, they need to reinvest some of the savings and benefits back into the pass rush, for sure. If you can find 80 percent of Ford’s pressure skills but get it from someone who isn’t such a liability in run D, I can see it being an overall win.

Bowser
03-03-2019, 12:15 PM
But consider the value of the 'under' alignment that shades towards Ford. You now have Jones over there hopefully being assignment sound and helping drive that play out wide. And if it comes inside, Nnadi's a hell of a good run-defender.

Shifting the formation a bit can do a lot to protect there. My biggest concern isn't actually Ford - it's DoD. Because if Nnadi/Jones can't win their individual matchups outright and stop the play themselves, even a 'draw' in their matchups leaves DoD out there trying to finish that play and I'm not sure he has that in his toolbox.

Give me a better Will (Hitchens would actually seem to be a nice fit there but he may be needed elsewhere) and I'd be less nervous.

Yeah....sound logic. The key statement is "hopefully being assignment sound", though. Ford had a quantum jump in '18 in terms of production....can he keep it up in an entirely new system?

You're talking me into considering what he could be given the talent that would be around him, but I'm still wanting Green Bay's #30 straight up for Ford. I'm greedy like that when thinking of all we need on defense (and possibly a bonus Hockerson pick, to boot), but is it worth trading a vested vet for a rook, especially a rook at the bottom of the round?

RealSNR
03-03-2019, 12:17 PM
Lining up a SSLB over Ford seems like it would help in base sets... but lord that’s an awful lot to pay a one-dimensional player who has to be protected. And it only helps in bas3 set... in nickel or dime, you’re still susceptible to runs to that side.

If they move Ford and Houston, they need to reinvest some of the savings and benefits back into the pass rush, for sure. If you can find 80 percent of Ford’s pressure skills but get it from someone who isn’t such a liability in run D, I can see it being an overall win.

If we keep Ford, it makes sense to pay him longterm rather than keep him on the 1-year offer sheet via the tag.

If Trey Flowers enters free agency, he's going to command some money. Probably the money we would be paying Dee Ford. Perhaps a little bit more.

I'm not saying the guy will fix everything or even that we should pursue him, but he probably comes the closest to filling that role you're describing.

Pay Ford or pay Flowers. If you had to pick one or the other (there is no "neither") which one would you choose? And yeah, paying one means Houston is gone, likely through a cut.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 12:20 PM
Lining up a SSLB over Ford seems like it would help in base sets... but lord that’s an awful lot to pay a one-dimensional player who has to be protected. And it only helps in bas3 set... in nickel or dime, you’re still susceptible to runs to that side.

If they move Ford and Houston, they need to reinvest some of the savings and benefits back into the pass rush, for sure. If you can find 80 percent of Ford’s pressure skills but get it from someone who isn’t such a liability in run D, I can see it being an overall win.

I don't think he's quite the liability in the run game as is advertised. No, he is not an asset there, but he's not an unholy disaster at this stage of his career either.

He's willing and he's gotten so much stronger. He has a basic mass problem when playing against LTs but so does everyone else who isn't a !@#$ing monster.

They can't all be peak Houston (who, for the record, was only a little better than Ford against the run this year to my eyes). When you look at a guy who's an elite pass-rusher and who's an EXTREMELY good pursuit defender against the run, you're left with one really significant issue and that's his ability to body up a LT and stymie a run. Well damn man, who's really bringing all that to the table who will EVER be available to this team?

I think we're looking at the LEO in many ways as a second SDE and I don't think that's how Spags wants to do this. What you're describing in a '80% as good a pass rusher but much more run sound' type of player is what I think we're looking for at SDE. To complement that I think we're looking for as good a pass-rusher as we can find and boy, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that there's a better pass rusher available than Dee Ford.

staylor26
03-03-2019, 12:20 PM
No they are suggesting Ford + KC 2nd rounder for Green Bay #12

What? It was trade Ford and our 2nd for the #12 pick.

Ahh I read that wrong. I smoked first thing this morning so forgive me for being a retard.

I still don’t think we’d even get that though.

RunKC
03-03-2019, 12:23 PM
They’re not just gonna give Ford away. It’s gonna require a team to ‘overpay’ for him in KCs eyes to let him go IMO.

Houston is another story. They’d probably take whatever they can get.

I feel like anything better than a 3 is worth it. Someone offers up a 2, then I’m game.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 12:25 PM
If we keep Ford, it makes sense to pay him longterm rather than keep him on the 1-year offer sheet via the tag.

If Trey Flowers enters free agency, he's going to command some money. Probably the money we would be paying Dee Ford. Perhaps a little bit more.

I'm not saying the guy will fix everything or even that we should pursue him, but he probably comes the closest to filling that role you're describing.

Pay Ford or pay Flowers. If you had to pick one or the other (there is no "neither") which one would you choose? And yeah, paying one means Houston is gone, likely through a cut.

And Trey Flowers isn't as ideal for MY view of the Leo, anyway. Perhaps I'm just wrong.

I think maybe the guy Duncan may be looking for here is Jerry Hughes. Or more accurately, a younger version of Jerry Hughes. Hughes is a very good pass rusher and while he's not a premier run-support player, he's probably average to slightly above. He can be explosive around the edge as well.

Here's the issue I have with Hughes - at 27 years old he WAS Dee Ford. In fact he was probably far worse against the run. It took Hughes time to learn how to use technique and leverage to be better against the run than he was. And he finally put it together this year and became exactly what I think we'd look for in that role. But the thing is, there's nothing in his physical tools that makes him demonstrably more capable than Ford at doing that job.

Ford can absolutely be Jerry Hughes and it wouldn't take much more to get there.

For me the only question about Ford is health. I don't question his effort or his coachability. I don't question his tools. If I were confident that he's past his back issues (which you can never truly be confident of) I'd gladly give him a long-term contract that keeps him here for at least 3 seasons with a reasonable 4th.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 12:26 PM
I feel like anything better than a 3 is worth it. Someone offers up a 2, then I’m game.

I think you're losing that deal badly if you take anything outside the top 40 picks.

I'd consider an early 2 but next year's a big year and Ford can be a huge part of that as he enters his prime and is still playing for a contract.

BryanBusby
03-03-2019, 12:26 PM
I dunno man, that's getting HUGE value for Ford. That's the rough equivalent to the 18th or so pick. A late 2nd isn't gonna move you too far up in the first, especially when you get up near 10-12. Those are high value picks.

Though to be honest, if I could pull that trade off I'd immediately start shopping that 12 for another move back and try to recover a higher 2nd than we gave up. If you shell-gamed that out, you could end up with something like the Pittsburgh's 20 and their 52. That would be a MASSIVE haul for Ford; essentially a top 20 1st rounder and a small trade up in the 2nd (the rough equivalent of a comp 3).

So Ford for the 20th overall and a late 3rd? !@#$ing sold, man.
I'm just not really all too excited about the top end of this draft. I feel that I'd rather take multiple 2's or something along the lines and have more shots at landing a hit, as that's where the gold seems to be.

Chris Meck
03-03-2019, 12:31 PM
Lining up a SSLB over Ford seems like it would help in base sets... but lord that’s an awful lot to pay a one-dimensional player who has to be protected. And it only helps in bas3 set... in nickel or dime, you’re still susceptible to runs to that side.

If they move Ford and Houston, they need to reinvest some of the savings and benefits back into the pass rush, for sure. If you can find 80 percent of Ford’s pressure skills but get it from someone who isn’t such a liability in run D, I can see it being an overall win.

Right? That player is named Justin Houston.

duncan_idaho
03-03-2019, 12:50 PM
And Trey Flowers isn't as ideal for MY view of the Leo, anyway. Perhaps I'm just wrong.



I think maybe the guy Duncan may be looking for here is Jerry Hughes. Or more accurately, a younger version of Jerry Hughes. Hughes is a very good pass rusher and while he's not a premier run-support player, he's probably average to slightly above. He can be explosive around the edge as well.



Here's the issue I have with Hughes - at 27 years old he WAS Dee Ford. In fact he was probably far worse against the run. It took Hughes time to learn how to use technique and leverage to be better against the run than he was. And he finally put it together this year and became exactly what I think we'd look for in that role. But the thing is, there's nothing in his physical tools that makes him demonstrably more capable than Ford at doing that job.



Ford can absolutely be Jerry Hughes and it wouldn't take much more to get there.



For me the only question about Ford is health. I don't question his effort or his coachability. I don't question his tools. If I were confident that he's past his back issues (which you can never truly be confident of) I'd gladly give him a long-term contract that keeps him here for at least 3 seasons with a reasonable 4th.


At any point in his career, could you consistently wAM block Hughes into non existence in the run game? Slot WRs can do that to him. I think he’s a major weakness in the run game that you always have to cover for.

If we keep Ford, it makes sense to pay him longterm rather than keep him on the 1-year offer sheet via the tag.



If Trey Flowers enters free agency, he's going to command some money. Probably the money we would be paying Dee Ford. Perhaps a little bit more.



I'm not saying the guy will fix everything or even that we should pursue him, but he probably comes the closest to filling that role you're describing.



Pay Ford or pay Flowers. If you had to pick one or the other (there is no "neither") which one would you choose? And yeah, paying one means Houston is gone, likely through a cut.


Absolutely I would rather pay Flowers than Ford, even on the same contract.

Flowers is younger and healthier and is a complete player. Yeah, he’s more of a SDE in this defense, but he’s smart and enough of a pass rush threat that I think he’d do well in Spagnuolo’s movement based scheme.

bricks
03-03-2019, 01:20 PM
At any point in his career, could you consistently wAM block Hughes into non existence in the run game? Slot WRs can do that to him. I think he’s a major weakness in the run game that you always have to cover for.




Absolutely I would rather pay Flowers than Ford, even on the same contract.

Flowers is younger and healthier and is a complete player. Yeah, he’s more of a SDE in this defense, but he’s smart and enough of a pass rush threat that I think he’d do well in Spagnuolo’s movement based scheme.

Same here. He is a more balanced and complete player plus he has played under Daly and is familiar with the defensive fronts he runs.

I would absolutely love Flowers here. This is the thing people need to recognize and understand and its been said here before but you have to have the right coaches, and the right players that fit their schemes. Thats why I suggested we should also get Collins in my previous post.

Getting rid of lets say both Ford and Houston yeah you sacrifice a bit of passrush, but having a top passrush as we did last year didn’t prove anything. Pats didnt have a great passrush and they succeeded.

Change the defensive face and dynamics with better overall defensive coaching, players that are well balanced overall and that fit the defensive philosophies, schemes.....I’ll take that over two stud passrushers anyday.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:08 PM
LMAO

The same people that think Ford is an injury prone one trick pony think we can get a top 15 pick AND a 2nd?

or maybe you cant read.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:11 PM
ford is definitely worth a late first by himself AT LEAST.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-03-2019, 03:18 PM
Any defense would play well with 23 guys on the field

:facepalm: Hence the quotation marks implying the sentiment of the possibility, not the actual number of defenders.

ford is definitely worth a late first by himself AT LEAST.

I hope you're right. Just like I hope that every team and GM in the league will buy Ford's assessment that "this is an injury league", and by golly gosh darn it, there just isn't a thing that can be done about it, so pays me my money!

staylor26
03-03-2019, 03:20 PM
or maybe you cant read.

My point still stands. It’s hilarious that you think we’d get the 12th pick for Ford and a late 2nd but he’s a brokedick one trick pony.

Would YOU give that up form Ford and essentially a 3rd?

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:29 PM
My point still stands. It’s hilarious that you think we’d get the 12th pick for Ford and a late 2nd but he’s a brokedick one trick pony.

Would YOU give that up form Ford and essentially a 3rd?

If he still fit our scheme and I thought the back was good?


Definitely. He had 13 sacks, 7 ff, and was top 3in pressures.

He's worth that.

But i'm selling, and the team would be too... all that matters is if there's a BUYER that believes he's worth that. I can see where that could be..


See I think you confuse someone thinking a player doesn't really fit with that person thinking that player sucks. The two aren't exclusive buddy.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:30 PM
:facepalm: Hence the quotation marks implying the sentiment of the possibility, not the actual number of defenders.



I hope you're right. Just like I hope that every team and GM in the league will buy Ford's assessment that "this is an injury league", and by golly gosh darn it, there just isn't a thing that can be done about it, so pays me my money!
Where did ford make that assessment?

Dante84
03-03-2019, 03:31 PM
I wonder if anyone has called us about him?

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:32 PM
Hell staylor look up the stats.

I'm not saying he's mack but I'll say his stats were right on par last year

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-03-2019, 03:33 PM
Where did ford make that assessment?

It's on the board, recently. It's either a tweet or part of an article. In fact, I believe it was part of an AP "Dee Ford hopes to be back"-piece.

Many facepalms were had by all the day it appeared.

staylor26
03-03-2019, 03:40 PM
If he still fit our scheme and I thought the back was good?


Definitely. He had 13 sacks, 7 ff, and was top 3in pressures.

He's worth that.

But i'm selling, and the team would be too... all that matters is if there's a BUYER that believes he's worth that. I can see where that could be..


See I think you confuse someone thinking a player doesn't really fit with that person thinking that player sucks. The two aren't exclusive buddy.

The idea that he doesn’t fit the scheme is overblown, so that’s probably where we disagree.

Dee Ford can play the LEO. He’s not nearly as bad against the run as he used to be and people claim he still is.

staylor26
03-03-2019, 03:42 PM
I’m willing to make him prove it again if he’s asking for too much, but I’m not totally against a contract extension if it’s reasonable.

But if I were another team, would I pay him AND give up the 12th pick for him and a very late 2nd?

No way.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:52 PM
Well that's all fine and good. But you aren't a gm so who really fucking cares,

I mean you think he's worth at least 16 million a year, so why isn't he worth a mid first?

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 03:57 PM
Here I'll equate it to this...

I'm putting an engine in a traverse right now. EVERYONE that's had one hates them, engine issues, electrical issues, HVAC issues, power steering issues.


But at LEAST once a week I see someone buy one, pay way too much, and feel like they just got the best rig in the world.

It happens in football every year. This year i'm hoping we're onthe good side of it.

staylor26
03-03-2019, 03:59 PM
Well that's all fine and good. But you aren't a gm so who really fucking cares,

I mean you think he's worth at least 16 million a year, so why isn't he worth a mid first?

I think he’s worth it for a year when we’re in the middle of a SB window and already are likely losing our other edge rusher in Houston.

I prefer not to give him a long term deal before he proves he can stay healthy again, but I wouldn’t hate it if we did because it would help us bring in more help this year when we’re already the favorites to win it all. We really are that close.

But if I’m the Packers, there’s no way I’m losing a top 12 pick along with the risk of paying a big contract to a guy that hasn’t proven he can stay healthy.

BossChief
03-03-2019, 04:16 PM
Why can’t Ford play effectively in a 4-3 as an end?

I think he’s (at this point in his career) a very similar player to the DEs that thrived in Indy’s defense that helped Manning all those years. Especially Freeney...but also Mathis.

TBH I think he’d be better in a 4-3 than he has been in a 3-4.

BossChief
03-03-2019, 04:18 PM
Daly will improve Fords run defense awareness.

My only real concern for Ford is his back and the longer he goes without back issues, the more he will be able to build his core strength. That’s gonna help his back AND his run defense.

duncan_idaho
03-03-2019, 04:55 PM
The problem with Ford’s run D for me always comes back to this... no matter who you’re scheming him, a determined WR can still block him to seal the edge or backside on a run play.

He’s incredibly easy to exploit offensively. That’s the whole kit and kaboodle for me. Yes, he no longer runs the opposite direction of the run play. Yes, he tries harder and is fast enough to pursue backside. But when it comes down to it, the fact you don’t even need to consistently match him up with a TE is something I just can’t get over when it comes to the idea of offering him a huge, long deal.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-03-2019, 04:58 PM
The problem with Ford’s run D for me always comes back to this... no matter who you’re scheming him, a determined WR can still block him to seal the edge or backside on a run play.

He’s incredibly easy to exploit offensively. That’s the whole kit and kaboodle for me. Yes, he no longer runs the opposite direction of the run play. Yes, he tries harder and is fast enough to pursue backside. But when it comes down to it, the fact you don’t even need to consistently match him up with a TE is something I just can’t get over when it comes to the idea of offering him a huge, long deal.

He has no mean streak and his head is shit.

Couch-Potato
03-03-2019, 05:05 PM
Can someone help me to understand why our current front 7 personnel isn't a good fit for the 4-3?


Houston, Hitchens, DOD
Speaks, Nnadi, Jones, Ford

Coogs
03-03-2019, 05:10 PM
Can someone help me to understand why our current front 7 personnel isn't a good fit for the 4-3?


Houston, Hitchens, DOD
Speaks, Nnadi, Jones, Ford

Most of it centers around the salary cap. Keep Houston and Ford. Risk losing Jones and/or Hill. Then there if this fellow named Mahomes. Long term planning, not short term, needs to be in place now that we finally have a QB.

DJ's left nut
03-03-2019, 05:11 PM
Can someone help me to understand why our current front 7 personnel isn't a good fit for the 4-3?


Houston, Hitchens, DOD
Speaks, Nnadi, Jones, Ford

1) I'm not wholly convinced that the present incarnation of Houston is capable of playing Sam at this stage of his career. The burst is just gone and I don't know how he can hang with TEs in space. He was also pretty low-key bad against the run last year; a lot more losses there than we are accustomed to seeing.

2) It's prohibitively expensive. Gotta find the money somewhere and Houston's the most logical spot.

As for other concerns - DoD is still super-raw and there are a lot of assignments he'll have where if he screws up out there, he leaves a ton of space around him. The Will in this defense is a glory position where there are a lot of bit time plays that can be made but that also means there are a lot of really bad mistakes that can go with it.

Also, Speaks probably sucks. But at least he'll probably suck less at the SDE than he did at OLB. Which is why so many people assumed that Veach was drafting for the 4-3 even in 2018. There's no way he really thought that Speaks was a long-term standup linebacker.

TwistedChief
03-03-2019, 05:12 PM
Here I'll equate it to this...

I'm putting an engine in a traverse right now. EVERYONE that's had one hates them, engine issues, electrical issues, HVAC issues, power steering issues.


But at LEAST once a week I see someone buy one, pay way too much, and feel like they just got the best rig in the world.

It happens in football every year. This year i'm hoping we're onthe good side of it.

This is a great comparison.

The difference is very clear and illuminating.

The guy who puts an engine in a traverse (btw, I have no idea what those words mean consecutively) is operating with imperfect information. He's just trying to get his car running or something like that. He's no expert.

The NFL GM who considers trading for Ford is not some guy who is unaware of Ford's difficulty in defending the run and injury history.

Hence, Chiefs fans don't value Ford highly for very reasonable reasons. NFL GMs aren't exactly in the dark about this.

That's why I can't understand why people think other teams are going to give up a lot of value for a guy the Chiefs might not really value that much. Yes, good pass rushers are a scarce commodity, but we're the team probably closest to winning a SB and we're not that concerned about that. So why should the *insert any team* be so convinced Ford is the final piece in the puzzle?

The Franchise
03-03-2019, 05:21 PM
This is a great comparison.

The difference is very clear and illuminating.

The guy who puts an engine in a traverse (btw, I have no idea what those words mean consecutively) is operating with imperfect information. He's just trying to get his car running or something like that. He's no expert.

The NFL GM who considers trading for Ford is not some guy who is unaware of Ford's difficulty in defending the run and injury history.

Hence, Chiefs fans don't value Ford highly for very reasonable reasons. NFL GMs aren't exactly in the dark about this.

That's why I can't understand why people think other teams are going to give up a lot of value for a guy the Chiefs might not really value that much. Yes, good pass rushers are a scarce commodity, but we're the team probably closest to winning a SB and we're not that concerned about that. So why should the *insert any team* be so convinced Ford is the final piece in the puzzle?

Because there are dumb GMs in the NFL. That gets proven every year in FA and the draft.

Red Dawg
03-03-2019, 05:28 PM
He's a one trick pony. Can rush the passer pretty good at least this past year but that's not enough. You need a more complete player and he's not one. I really hope he gets traded. The money could be better spent.

TwistedChief
03-03-2019, 05:28 PM
Because there are dumb GMs in the NFL. That gets proven every year in FA and the draft.

Yeah, I guess? Yet our compensation for Peters essentially boiled down to a deferred #2 and that in hindsight absolutely seems like a fair-ish swap. So yes, there are stupid GMs and it's no surprise we're listening to offers for both Houston and Ford. But what's the likelihood someone is dumb enough to pay up for those guys when they know exactly where the Chiefs are?

Hard to believe but CP isn't exactly that far ahead of the scouting curve... :)

farmerchief
03-03-2019, 05:37 PM
I think Chiefs are treating this correctly, for the time being. Tagging Ford, but making him available for anyone that may offer a suitable value. Also testing the waters for Houston, although I'm think most teams probably figure Houston will get released due to salary cap issues, so unless they are way low on the pecking order, and think someone would offer him something better, they will wait until he's released. If they move both, fine with me, I'm thinking they can get their replacements in the draft. After watching the NFL combine most of the day, there seems to be an abundance of defensive players to choose from. I'm not married to either Ford or Houston, if we end up with one that's fine, if we end up with neither, fine also.

Buckweath
03-03-2019, 05:39 PM
The injuries concerns I perfectly understand.

The production just last year and not much before that I understand.

But fans criticizing Ford's play last year are just clueless. He was a great player and a well deserved Pro Bowler. I would not give up any of his passrushing for better run defending.

Couch-Potato
03-03-2019, 05:49 PM
The injuries concerns I perfectly understand.

The production just last year and not much before that I understand.

But fans criticizing Ford's play last year are just clueless. He was a great player and a well deserved Pro Bowler. I would not give up any of his passrushing for better run defending.

Agreed. I thought he was our best defensive player last year.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 06:07 PM
This is a great comparison.

The difference is very clear and illuminating.

The guy who puts an engine in a traverse (btw, I have no idea what those words mean consecutively) is operating with imperfect information. He's just trying to get his car running or something like that. He's no expert.

The NFL GM who considers trading for Ford is not some guy who is unaware of Ford's difficulty in defending the run and injury history.

Hence, Chiefs fans don't value Ford highly for very reasonable reasons. NFL GMs aren't exactly in the dark about this.

That's why I can't understand why people think other teams are going to give up a lot of value for a guy the Chiefs might not really value that much. Yes, good pass rushers are a scarce commodity, but we're the team probably closest to winning a SB and we're not that concerned about that. So why should the *insert any team* be so convinced Ford is the final piece in the puzzle?

My point was that even though the traverse has all these known issues there is always someone buying one, over paying, and thinking they got a great rig. People always seem to think that it won't happen this time (or next time)...

It happens in football every year. Sometimes they are right, lots of times wrong. That's why there's a dreaded "contract year " saying. But that's also why I think we should get a good pick for Ford. Someone is going to look at him and think he's fixed and fits on their team.

SAUTO
03-03-2019, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I guess? Yet our compensation for Peters essentially boiled down to a deferred #2 and that in hindsight absolutely seems like a fair-ish swap. So yes, there are stupid GMs and it's no surprise we're listening to offers for both Houston and Ford. But what's the likelihood someone is dumb enough to pay up for those guys when they know exactly where the Chiefs are?

Hard to believe but CP isn't exactly that far ahead of the scouting curve... :) odds might not be great. But Houston's contract might help. 14 something isn't way out of line on him.

Someone might see upside in ford.

I'm most likely dreaming though

Chiefshrink
03-03-2019, 06:27 PM
Because there are dumb GMs in the NFL. That gets proven every year in FA and the draft.

Gruden comes to mind.;) Anybody who thinks Mayock is calling the shots is naive.

Sweet Daddy Hate
03-03-2019, 06:36 PM
My point was that even though the traverse has all these known issues there is always someone buying one, over paying, and thinking they got a great rig. People always seem to think that it won't happen this time (or next time)...

It happens in football every year. Sometimes they are right, lots of times wrong. That's why there's a dreaded "contract year " saying. But that's also why I think we should get a good pick for Ford. Someone is going to look at him and think he's fixed and fits on their team.

That I agree with but I don't believe we can get as high a pick due to his injury history AND that he seems to feel like being out of play for long periods is just "part of the game".
Getting injuries happens. Getting long term injuries happens to Dee Ford. A lot.
But I hope someone thinks he's the missing piece and is willing to give him a contract to be so.

Iconic
03-03-2019, 07:00 PM
For fun: Would you guys give up Ford and our first for Jamal Adams

pugsnotdrugs19
03-03-2019, 07:00 PM
Would you give up Ford and our first round pick for Jamal Adams

No. They’d need to throw in something

Iconic
03-03-2019, 07:03 PM
No. They’d need to throw in something

I don't know man. Jamal is the type you can build a defense around. He's Berry before he became injury-prone, or at least has that potential.

How about a 2nd and Ford?

htismaqe
03-04-2019, 10:40 AM
Have they traded him yet?

Fansy the Famous Bard
03-04-2019, 11:14 AM
I don't know man. Jamal is the type you can build a defense around. He's Berry before he became injury-prone, or at least has that potential.

How about a 2nd and Ford?

Why would the Jets do that? He's a good, young defensive player on his rookie deal. If they are rebuilding with youth, those are the guys they won't trade.

Iconic
03-04-2019, 12:56 PM
Why would the Jets do that? He's a good, young defensive player on his rookie deal. If they are rebuilding with youth, those are the guys they won't trade.

Woody Johnson is kind of a dumbass that's why and in this hypothetical a first and Ford really is great value for them. I mean Jets aren't chasing rings any time soon and could use Ford + a first to sell seats/ hit the minimum on their cap.

BryanBusby
03-04-2019, 01:04 PM
Woody Johnson is kind of a dumbass that's why and in this hypothetical a first and Ford really is great value for them. I mean Jets aren't chasing rings any time soon and could use Ford + a first to sell seats/ hit the minimum on their cap.
he's uh not running the Jets right now