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View Full Version : Football Least Deserving Hall of Famers: Round 2, Heat 6


Rain Man
07-05-2019, 10:02 AM
78 players have made - or rather, not made - the initial cut. I'll present 7 heats in Round 2, and we'll cut that list down to the top 21.

As with Round 1, vote for the THREE least deserving guys clogging up the real estate of the Hall of Fame.

Rain Man
07-05-2019, 10:20 AM
When I go through this list, my immediate reactions are:

Dick Butkus and Frank Gifford don't wow me with stats, but they have reputations that their peers speak glowingly about. They were before my time, so I'll give them a pass.

Jackie Smith was a well-respected guy who got great stats for a long time. He gets a pass. Billy Shaw was before my time, but he's got a really good history when you read about him. He's in.

Ty Law and Champ Bailey don't wow me, but it's hard for cornerbacks to get in and they both pass the 50-int test. So they're in.

That leaves me with five guys to consider: John Elway, Rayfield Wright, Tim Brown, Bill Dudley, and Jason Taylor. Dudley's career was interrupted by WWII so I have to scale him up.

My final votes of least deserving would be:

1. John Elway. Being average for a long time doesn't wow me. And he's one of the worst big-game quarterbacks the league has ever seen. I don't care if he was handed the starting job 16 seasons in a row. His production was very pedestrian until Denver turned him into a game manager and built the offense around their running game. His last six years were productive, but that's not enough.

2. Rayfield Wright. He was in the league for 13 years, but during five of those seasons he made a total of 9 starts. So he's really an eight-year guy. I remember him from my youth as being good but not dominant.

3. Tim Brown. I watched his entire career. Was he productive? Yeah. But I never felt like the Chiefs were having to build game plans against him.

Jason Taylor gets a pass because he did record a lot of sacks, so that's good. And Dudley seems to have been productive. If a guy who played on three different teams in the 40s can get into the HoF, he was probably worthy. He wouldn't have gotten much ardent media support given his career path.

oldman
07-05-2019, 01:37 PM
I'm going to agree with RM about Elway. I know his team broke our hearts on a lot of occasions, but note I said team.
Chump Bailey was probably one of the most over-rated CBs ever. Plus most of his time in the NFL was with the Donks and the hated Red Potatoes. Albert Lewis would be a better choice on my team.
Frank Gifford, the golden boy. In an age known for glorification of the pretty-boy RB, his good fortune was to play in New York City. Otherwise known for chasing a lot of tail. Mr. Lanier would have torn his legs off and fed them to him. Pass.

Easy 6
07-05-2019, 01:56 PM
How in the HELL has Dick freaking Butkus made it this far?

Anyone who thinks he doesn’t belong needs to go throw themselves into a wood chipper RIGHT NOW

Tombstone RJ
07-05-2019, 04:56 PM
When I go through this list, my immediate reactions are:

Dick Butkus and Frank Gifford don't wow me with stats, but they have reputations that their peers speak glowingly about. They were before my time, so I'll give them a pass.

Jackie Smith was a well-respected guy who got great stats for a long time. He gets a pass. Billy Shaw was before my time, but he's got a really good history when you read about him. He's in.

Ty Law and Champ Bailey don't wow me, but it's hard for cornerbacks to get in and they both pass the 50-int test. So they're in.

That leaves me with five guys to consider: John Elway, Rayfield Wright, Tim Brown, Bill Dudley, and Jason Taylor. Dudley's career was interrupted by WWII so I have to scale him up.

My final votes of least deserving would be:

1. John Elway. Being average for a long time doesn't wow me. And he's one of the worst big-game quarterbacks the league has ever seen. I don't care if he was handed the starting job 16 seasons in a row. His production was very pedestrian until Denver turned him into a game manager and built the offense around their running game. His last six years were productive, but that's not enough.

2. Rayfield Wright. He was in the league for 13 years, but during five of those seasons he made a total of 9 starts. So he's really an eight-year guy. I remember him from my youth as being good but not dominant.

3. Tim Brown. I watched his entire career. Was he productive? Yeah. But I never felt like the Chiefs were having to build game plans against him.

Jason Taylor gets a pass because he did record a lot of sacks, so that's good. And Dudley seems to have been productive. If a guy who played on three different teams in the 40s can get into the HoF, he was probably worthy. He wouldn't have gotten much ardent media support given his career path.

:rolleyes:

Tombstone RJ
07-05-2019, 04:57 PM
I'm going to agree with RM about Elway. I know his team broke our hearts on a lot of occasions, but note I said team. Chump Bailey was probably one of the most over-rated CBs ever. Plus most of his time in the NFL was with the Donks and the hated Red Potatoes. Albert Lewis would be a better choice on my team. Frank Gifford, the golden boy. In an age known for glorification of the pretty-boy RB, his good fortune was to play in New York City. Otherwise known for chasing a lot of tail. Mr. Lanier would have torn his legs off and fed them to him. Pass.

lol, keep crying...

Rain Man
07-05-2019, 05:05 PM
:rolleyes:

Hey, I'm just going by what I saw. I can honestly say that he never scared me as a quarterback. Other than sheer longevity, he's not in the top tier of quarterbacks. He's the Charlie Joiner of his position.

lawrenceRaider
07-05-2019, 05:56 PM
3. Tim Brown. I watched his entire career. Was he productive? Yeah. But I never felt like the Chiefs were having to build game plans against him.
.

I guess you never watched any games, despite your claim. Chiefs always had game plans for Brown. He still routinely burned y'all.

lawrenceRaider
07-05-2019, 05:57 PM
Hey, I'm just going by what I saw. I can honestly say that he never scared me as a quarterback. Other than sheer longevity, he's not in the top tier of quarterbacks. He's the Charlie Joiner of his position.

You are wrong, but that's ok.

Rain Man
07-05-2019, 06:17 PM
I guess you never watched any games, despite your claim. Chiefs always had game plans for Brown. He still routinely burned y'all.

You made me curious as to why I found Tim Brown so unimpressive, so in the interest of honest critique, I looked him up.

Tim Brown played in 30 total games against the Chiefs. In those 30 games, he scored six total touchdowns.

Six.

In Week 16 of 1991, he scored two touchdowns (26 and 23 yards) as the Raiders lost to the Chiefs 21-27.

In Week 13 of 1995, he caught a 1-yard touchdown pass as the Raiders lost to the Chiefs 23-29.

In Week 14 of 1996, he caught a 34-yard touchdown pass as the Raiders beat the Chiefs 26-7. His TD put the Raiders up 26-0, so it wasn't exactly a key play.

In Week 16 of 1998, he caught a 13-yard touchdown pass as the Raiders lost to the Chiefs 24-31.

In Week 1 of 2001, he caught a 33-yard touchdown pass as the Raiders beat the Chiefs 27-24. His TD came in the third quarter when the Raiders were down by 10 points.

He generally scored a touchdown against the Chiefs every 2.5 seasons or so, despite playing us twice a year. None of those six touchdowns was notable in terms of the games' outcomes. So I would advocate lining him up out there all day against us. Clone him. Bring him back. Let us play against him again.

Maybe he was better against other teams, but he was not a dominant player against the Chiefs. He was not even a notable player. Since those are the games I watch, I cannot draw any other observational conclusion.

Rain Man
07-05-2019, 06:20 PM
You are wrong, but that's ok.

I have written peer-reviewed dissertations proving that John Elway was a mediocre quarterback. I have been awarded honorary degrees in Baltimore for my research work in this area.

vailpass
07-05-2019, 06:40 PM
I have written peer-reviewed dissertations proving that John Elway was a mediocre quarterback. I have been awarded honorary degrees in Baltimore for my research work in this area.

LMAO

RunKC
07-05-2019, 06:42 PM
Elway’s career high in TD’s was 27. Len Dawson has more TD’s in 2 seasons and he played in the 60’s.

Elway couldn’t get to 60% completion percentage until his 11th season.

He got rings bc he was on one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, which happened because the Broncos deferred payments to him and Terrell Davis.

He had some good comebacks, like Cleveland, but most of the time it was because he didn’t do anything most of the game.

I mean damn. He lost at home as a 1 seed to Mark Brunell.

vailpass
07-05-2019, 06:48 PM
Elway’s career high in TD’s was 27. Len Dawson has more TD’s in 2 seasons and he played in the 60’s.

Elway couldn’t get to 60% completion percentage until his 11th season.

He got rings bc he was on one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, which happened because the Broncos deferred payments to him and Terrell Davis.

He had some good comebacks, like Cleveland, but most of the time it was because he didn’t do anything most of the game.

I mean damn. He lost at home as a 1 seed to Mark Brunell.

Dude. The guy took them to super bowls on his back where they got destroyed precisely because he was their only weapon. I’m not gonna’ sit here and bleed donkey blood on a Chiefs site anymore though.

Your attempt to actually argue guy isn’t HOF is laughable to any of us who watched the game back then. Take a lesson from Rain and elevate your critique to the creative level.

Tombstone RJ
07-05-2019, 09:41 PM
Hey, I'm just going by what I saw. I can honestly say that he never scared me as a quarterback. Other than sheer longevity, he's not in the top tier of quarterbacks. He's the Charlie Joiner of his position

Yah right, and you're completely unbiased too, riiiiight? The very fact that you are arguing Elway is not HoF worthy tells me you're not very smart. Some talking heads on TV think he's the best QB to ever play the game as he literally carried those Broncos teams on his back and got them to the playoffs, and won playoff games, for what, 13 of his 15 years in the NFL?

How many HoFers were on those Broncos teams that went to the playoffs and SBs prior to Mike Shanahan becoming the HC?

Tombstone RJ
07-05-2019, 09:44 PM
Elway’s career high in TD’s was 27. Len Dawson has more TD’s in 2 seasons and he played in the 60’s.

Elway couldn’t get to 60% completion percentage until his 11th season.

He got rings bc he was on one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, which happened because the Broncos deferred payments to him and Terrell Davis.

He had some good comebacks, like Cleveland, but most of the time it was because he didn’t do anything most of the game.

I mean damn. He lost at home as a 1 seed to Mark Brunell.

He had Dan Reeves as his HC during those years. Dan Reeves was the epitome of the 3 yards and a cloud of dust running game. He was old school, Tom Landry style of football but Tom Landry's Cowboys teams WERE LOADED WITH TALENT.

Rain Man
07-05-2019, 09:55 PM
Yah right, and you're completely unbiased too, riiiiight? The very fact that you are arguing Elway is not HoF worthy tells me you're not very smart. Some talking heads on TV think he's the best QB to ever play the game as he literally carried those Broncos teams on his back and got them to the playoffs, and won playoff games, for what, 13 of his 15 years in the NFL?

How many HoFers were on those Broncos teams that went to the playoffs and SBs prior to Mike Shanahan becoming the HC?

Have you even read my dissertation?

wazu
07-06-2019, 05:33 AM
He had Dan Reeves as his HC during those years. Dan Reeves was the epitome of the 3 yards and a cloud of dust running game. He was old school, Tom Landry style of football but Tom Landry's Cowboys teams WERE LOADED WITH TALENT.

Hey, man. I get that you like him. Elway was pretty good overall. But HOF is ridiculous.

Carr4MVP
07-06-2019, 10:11 AM
Elway’s career high in TD’s was 27. Len Dawson has more TD’s in 2 seasons and he played in the 60’s.

Elway couldn’t get to 60% completion percentage until his 11th season.

He got rings bc he was on one of the 3 most talented teams in the league, which happened because the Broncos deferred payments to him and Terrell Davis.

He had some good comebacks, like Cleveland, but most of the time it was because he didn’t do anything most of the game.

I mean damn. He lost at home as a 1 seed to Mark Brunell.

I agree with every point except the Mark Brunell one. Elway ran into Tom Coughlin playoff magic. Even the Hoodie and Brady aren't immune to it. Big Game Tom beats everyone.

Carr4MVP
07-06-2019, 10:12 AM
Anyone votes against Bill Dudley is walking on the fighting side of me.

Rain Man
07-06-2019, 03:43 PM
Anyone votes against Bill Dudley is walking on the fighting side of me.

Tell me more about Bill Dudley. He's very much against the model of a typical Hall of Famer in that era, given that he never had a long affiliation with any single team.

Carr4MVP
07-07-2019, 09:15 AM
Tell me more about Bill Dudley. He's very much against the model of a typical Hall of Famer in that era, given that he never had a long affiliation with any single team.

He could do it all: passing, running, receiving, defense, returning, and kicking. The quintessential, old-school Swiss Army athlete.

He entered the league playing for the crummy Steelers yet led the league in rushing as a rookie. He led the NFL twice in rushing and once in interceptions. Lost three prime years to military service. He named 1st or 2nd All-Pro six times in his career. Dudley led his team in scoring during every one of his nine NFL seasons.

Dudley is the only player ever with a rushing touchdown, touchdown reception, punt return for touchdown, kickoff return for touchdown, interception return for touchdown, fumble return for a touchdown, and a touchdown pass. He also had a touchdown via lateral and kicked PATs and field goals.

Both of his trades were due to interesting contract issues. At the end of his Pittsburgh tenure, he was ready to coach in college but the Lions traded for him and offered $20,000 a year. So he stayed with Detroit. His Lions contract after three years called for him to have one year coaching Detroit. The Detroit head coach, Centre Praying Colonels legend Bo McMillin, wished to avoid that clause and shipped him to Washington.

Ultimately, Dudley played for poor and struggling franchises though no fault of his own. His stats are even impressive when you consider he didn't have much help.