Who is the GOAT QB?

[Amnorix]

Other than Mahomes, of course... :D

I came up with my top 10, or you can fill in the blank.

(Jesus, no Brees. I am a genious... :shake:)

[BigCatDaddy]

Get lost fuck face.

[WhawhaWhat]

Tommy Maddox.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmMJ488UYAE7ncG.jpg

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Statistically . Drew Brees. And don't give me that Dome crap. If he'd been drafted by Belechick He'd have left Brady in the dust.

[Amnorix]

CRAP, I should've included Brees. Jesus. My poll is f'ing invalid. Goddammit!!!

[Amnorix]

If a Mod can add Brees? Dunno if that's even possible. Ah well, let the thread die I guess. Massive, stupid, oversight.

[Sofa King]

Patrick Mahomes. Voted "Other".

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

CRAP, I should've included Brees. Jesus. My poll is f'ing invalid. Goddammit!!!

Well we don't expect you to pay attention to details.

What are you , a lawyer or something.

[Dayze]

for me it's hard to come up with 'The Greatest" just given how much the league has changed/ evolved. And, personally, I don't equate SB wins to a level of greatness; short of a QB carrying his team to a win. It's such a team game, it's hard to say X QB is better than Y because he has more SB wins etc.


I've always thought Marino was a bad MF at QB. Especially back in those days when the QB would actually get hit.

I'd probably have Marino, Montana, Brees, Manning and Brady. but I'd have a hard time slotting them in any order.

[Amnorix]

for me it's hard to come up with 'The Greatest" just given how much the league has changed/ evolved. And, personally, I don't equate SB wins to a level of greatness; short of a QB carrying his team to a win. It's such a team game, it's hard to say X QB is better than Y because he has more SB wins etc.


I've always thought Marino was a bad MF at QB. Especially back in those days when the QB would actually get hit.

I'd probably have Marino, Montana, Brees, Manning and Brady. but I'd have a hard time slotting them in any order.


I think that is a very fair answer. It's hard in any sport, but especially football, which is the ultimate team sport. There is no question but that Montana had some advantage with an innovative system and great talent. Brady an advantage with a great coach and consistency during his entire career. How do you balance that against Marino, who had a great coach, but overall not great talent? Dome vs non-dome?

[Rain Man]

I realize that I should say Joe Montana, but I have to vote for Dan Marino. That guy was amazing. He was almost Mahomes-ian in his abilities.

This probably isn't fair to Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas, or Sammy Baugh for that matter. Those guys were before my time, but if you look at them relative to their time, they were amazing players.

Sammy Baugh threw for almost 3,000 yards in 1947 with a 90+ passer rating, and Otto Graham dominated the league for years in both production and championships. Johnny Unitas was the first NFL passer to hit 3,000 yards in 1960, and he did it in a 12-game season.

[Why Not?]

I think that is a very fair answer. It's hard in any sport, but especially football, which is the ultimate team sport. There is no question but that Montana had some advantage with an innovative system and great talent. Brady an advantage with a great coach and consistency during his entire career. How do you balance that against Marino, who had a great coach, but overall not great talent? Dome vs non-dome?

You can’t balance it. That’s why GOAT debates are internet and talk radio fodder. I’m not sure if you can pick one single major sport and have an undisputed GOAT. Gretzky would be the closest but I’d bet you get some brushback on that, even.

[mschiefs1984]

If I'm being honest the answer has to be Brady.

But Mahomes will pass him in due time :)

[loochy]

Philip Rivers

[New World Order]

Bernard Pollard

[scho63]

1. Brady
2. Montana
3. Bradshaw
4. Elway
5, Manning/Manning
6. Favre/Rodgers

[smithandrew051]

There are so many factors to take into account.

Brady would not be Brady had he been drafted into the situation that some others have been drafted into. He would still probably be an all time great, but not a 6-time Super Bowl winning QB without that organization and Belichik.

On pure ability, I have a hard time thinking of a more gifted QB than Mahomes. He can literally do everything. He makes throws that no other QB can make. I don’t think that’s hyperbole either.

Brees, Brady, and Peyton are the most productive QBs ever, but I think all of their numbers will be surpassed sooner rather than later. They’re really the first group of elite QBs to play almost their entire primes in the “Passing League” era of the NFL. A lot of their early career numbers aren’t all that impressive. The QBs drafted into this era that become the next batch of greats will probably have better numbers when they retire.

For instance, right now there have only been 13 seasons in which a QB has thrown for 40 TDs or more. 8 of those were in 2010 or later. Prior to 1999, only 1 QB ever had done (Marino twice in the 80’s).

I think Mahomes will easily have 7+ seasons of 40 TDs if he plays as long as Brady or Brees. I don’t think that’s a knock on those guys either. It’s partially of product of playing in this era.

[Deberg_1990]

For me

Montana and Elway

Manning is up there too, but whilted under pressure too much.

[DJ's left nut]

Greatest passer of all time is Brees or Warner; everyone else can vie for #3 if they'd like, but as pure passers I've never seen anyone better than those 2.

Greatest multi-threat QB of all time is Steve Young. And if I could choose any QB to start a franchise with and have that QB at 23 yrs old going forward, it would be Mahomes...but Young would be #2. I think you could've given him any coach and any system at any time and he'd have been able to execute it at the highest level. Steve Young is criminally underrated.

Greatest career of all time has to be Brady. I mean fuck you if I'll ever vote for him in a poll or anything; I'm not reducing that to a number. But dude has like 10 AFC championships and 6 SB rings or whatever - the numbers are so goddamn ridiculous as to defy memory. He has SB comebacks and amazing playoff performances. Sure, his coach is a wizard and his division is a joke so he has had more opportunities than anyone, but he's done quite a damn bit on his own.

[Rain Man]

For me

Montana and Elway

Manning is up there too, but whilted under pressure too much.


Speaking of wilting under pressure, have you ever seen a summary of Elway's performances in the postseason?

[Megatron96]

The issue, as always, comes down to perception.

If we look at statistics, the answer is unquestionably Drew Brees.

If we look at SBs, the answer has to be Brady.

If we look at arm talent, (excepting Mahomes who doesn't have enough data to analyze properly) it's Marino.

And so on.

I based my answer on which QBs I've actually seen in their primes, which excluded Baugh, Graham, and Unitas.

But when we look at how a QB played under pressure and, in the end, which QB would I want under center with 2 minutes on the clock to win the SB, the answer is pretty easy: it has to be Joe "Cool" Montana.

[DJ's left nut]

For me

Montana and Elway

Manning is up there too, but whilted under pressure too much.

Question: Why doesn't anyone criticize Brees for this?

The dude has 2 of the most inexplicable losses of all time on his playoff resume. The 2010 1st round home playoff loss to a 7-9 football team. A Seahawks team that was losing 35-10 in the 4th quarter the following week to a Lovie Smith coached Bears squad before putting up 2 garbage time scores and losing in a slightly less embarrassing manner.

And being outgunned by Alex Smith.

And people want to give him a pass on that goofy Minnesota loss when his safety missed the tackle and they lost w/ 0:00 on the clock but Drew - maybe don't throw 2 picks? And the Rams PI last year was brutal but Brees was in full dink/dunk mode by then and was incapable of putting the Rams away in that game. The Saints had their foot on the Rams neck in the 1st half and got virtually nothing out of it. With the ball first, an interception (giving them the ball at the Ram 16) and a 3 and out, the Saints converted 1 of those opportunities into 6 because Brees couldn't power the football into small windows in the red zone. Up 20-10 in the 2nd half and the Saints go Punt, Punt, FG to keep the Rams alive.

And for as bad as the PI was - the Saints had the football to start OT and Brees cut their throats with that pick.

Nobody EVER says "hey wait a minute now - what about Brees in the post-season...." but Manning takes worlds of shit for it. Just seems strange to me.

[chiefzilla1501]

It pains me to say it, but it's Brady, and to me it's not particularly close. Peyton struggled way more in big games than I'd have liked. Warner was probably the most dominant I've seen in a small stretch, but it was very short. Brees... I can't stand behind him. He benefited big time playing in a dome and outside of 1 super bowl, he's been really mediocre in the playoffs. Probably a lot of that because of the dome thing. Really hard to crown someone as GOAT is he was never an mvp.

Which leaves me with Montana and Brady. A lot of similarities. But I saw Brady dominate with reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as his receivers. Whereas Montana typically had an obscene amount of talent.

[Clyde Frog]

Philip Rivers

You should work in the media. How are your SJW pandering and jumping to conclusions before getting all the facts "skills"?

[smithandrew051]

Elway isn’t even in the conversation to me.

Never threw 30 TDs in a season and only threw for 4,000 yards once.

Averaged 3,200 yards, 19 TDs, and 14 interceptions per year. His career passer rating is 80. Career completion percentage is 57%. He threw for at least as many interceptions as touchdowns in 5 different seasons. He only had a 2:1 or better Touchdown-Interception ratio in 3 seasons out of 16.

As I explained previously, he didn’t really play in the “Passing League”....but compare his numbers to what Marino did during the same era.

[BlackHelicopters]

Steve Bono.

[Shields68]

For me

Montana and Elway

Manning is up there too, but whilted under pressure too much.

The thing about Manning, I don't think some appreciate how bad an organization the Colts are. They had a very crappy line and a completely miserable Dee for most of his time there.

[ModSocks]

Elway isn’t even in the conversation to me.

.

This.

[RunKC]

As of right now the correct answer here is Aaron Rodgers

Only QB to have a career QB rating average over 100. 2nd best QB rating ever on the road of 98.
His career TD to INT ratio is over 4 to 1. That is insane.

His arm is as good as anyone in history and he can throw any arm angle, so the talent is as good as any QB ever.

I don’t care about how many rings Brady, Montana or Bradshaw has. Rodgers carried a team to a Super Bowl title with about 20 players on IR against an elite defense.

If you put Rodgers with Belichick, he’d have as many or more rings than Tom.

[Easy 6]

Montana was blowing shit up when defense was still DEFENSE

It’s Joe, until Mahomes takes his crown...

[Jerok]

What the fuck? Did any of you watch the 28 to 3 Superbowl? I thought that put an end to this discussion. Clearly its Matt Ryan.

[RollChiefsRoll]

Get Elway off this fucking list.

[Abba-Dabba]

Joe Montana. This isn't even a discussion and never will be. The rest of them just fall behind in a big lump.

The better discussion is who is the greatest QB to play but not be in the HOF. My vote goes to the Rodney Dangerfield of the NFL, Ken Anderson.

[Best22]

Since Mahomes wasn’t listed I had to vote Brady

[DaFace]

CRAP, I should've included Brees. Jesus. My poll is f'ing invalid. Goddammit!!!

We can delete the poll entirely and let you re-add it. We can't add a new option.

[smithandrew051]

Eli Manning has more passing yards, more passing touchdowns, a higher completion percentage, a higher touchdown percentage, a lower interception percentage, and a higher career rating than John Elway. Eli has also played two fewer games than Elway did for his career.

They’ve both won 2 Super Bowls, but Eli has 2 Super Bowl MVPs. Factor in also that twice the greatest coach and defensive mind ever had 2 weeks to prepare for Eli Manning, but Eli walked away with the Lombardi and the MVP award twice.

Not saying Eli’s a better all time QB, but there isn’t a real compelling argument that Elway is that far ahead.

[Lprechaun]

In a game that has changed to favor one side of the ball over another you cant name a GOAT, you can name a greatest of that era.
Current era its Brees Brady Manning,
Before that guys like Young, Montana, Marino
Then there is the group that I always consider above all others because they could just get murdered back there and the stats werent screwed by rules.
Bradshaw Dawson Staubach
Football has just had too many major changes that affect the game

[SAUTO]

Greatest passer of all time is Brees or Warner; everyone else can vie for #3 if they'd like, but as pure passers I've never seen anyone better than those 2.

Greatest multi-threat QB of all time is Steve Young. And if I could choose any QB to start a franchise with and have that QB at 23 yrs old going forward, it would be Mahomes...but Young would be #2. I think you could've given him any coach and any system at any time and he'd have been able to execute it at the highest level. Steve Young is criminally underrated.

Greatest career of all time has to be Brady. I mean fuck you if I'll ever vote for him in a poll or anything; I'm not reducing that to a number. But dude has like 10 AFC championships and 6 SB rings or whatever - the numbers are so goddamn ridiculous as to defy memory. He has SB comebacks and amazing playoff performances. Sure, his coach is a wizard and his division is a joke so he has had more opportunities than anyone, but he's done quite a damn bit on his own.

Question: Why doesn't anyone criticize Brees for this?

The dude has 2 of the most inexplicable losses of all time on his playoff resume. The 2010 1st round home playoff loss to a 7-9 football team. A Seahawks team that was losing 35-10 in the 4th quarter the following week to a Lovie Smith coached Bears squad before putting up 2 garbage time scores and losing in a slightly less embarrassing manner.

And being outgunned by Alex Smith.

And people want to give him a pass on that goofy Minnesota loss when his safety missed the tackle and they lost w/ 0:00 on the clock but Drew - maybe don't throw 2 picks? And the Rams PI last year was brutal but Brees was in full dink/dunk mode by then and was incapable of putting the Rams away in that game. The Saints had their foot on the Rams neck in the 1st half and got virtually nothing out of it. With the ball first, an interception (giving them the ball at the Ram 16) and a 3 and out, the Saints converted 1 of those opportunities into 6 because Brees couldn't power the football into small windows in the red zone. Up 20-10 in the 2nd half and the Saints go Punt, Punt, FG to keep the Rams alive.

And for as bad as the PI was - the Saints had the football to start OT and Brees cut their throats with that pick.

Nobody EVER says "hey wait a minute now - what about Brees in the post-season...." but Manning takes worlds of shit for it. Just seems strange to me.
You're on fire lately. Great posts

[Molitoth]

I wanted to vote for Peyton Manning, but I had to vote for Brady. =/

[ChiefsCountry]

Alex Smith /tigger and sandy

[Amnorix]

The thing about Manning, I don't think some appreciate how bad an organization the Colts are. They had a very crappy line and a completely miserable Dee for most of his time there.


This, honestly, is crap. The Colts defense was pretty solid alot of those years. As for talent -- BOTH Harrison AND Wayne are better than any receiver Brady ever had outside of 3 lousy years of Moss. Their OLine was revered when they had Mudd. Jeff Saturday was no slouch, and Tarik Glenn was very good. Running backs -- Edge was excellent, and Addai was above average.

Don't get me wrong -- nobody will confuse the Peyton-era Colts with the 60s Packers or 70s Steelers for talent -- but it was a different league. They weren't suffering for talent relative to the rest of the NFL.

[Raiderhater]

Montana was blowing shit up when defense was still DEFENSE

It’s Joe, until Mahomes takes his crown...

This sums up my position on the matter.

[Chieftain]

I don't rank Brady as the best QB ever for a number of reasons:

- Only 3 MVPs in 18 seasons (last time he won the award he threw for 32 TDS.. really?)
- Above average regular season numbers but nothing great. Only once in a season threw for 40+ TDs and only once threw for more than 5000 yards.
- Average playoff numbers. In his 16 playoff appearences, 9 out of those he had an avg passer rating of below 90.0 with a total of 34 Interceptions. Sure he won 6 Superbowls but how much of that was Brady's doing? Without Belichik's genius defensive scheming they don't beat the Rams last year. You could argue but he has 4 Superbowl MVPs? Look at his underwhelming numbers in those games. He was slightly better than the opposing QB which by default tilts the award on his favor.

I would say he is the most clutch playoff QB but when you put into the equation the regular season, I just don't see it. Manning was better imo and I'm not even a fan of his. Dude ran his own offense and was a general on the field.

[Rain Man]

We can delete the poll entirely and let you re-add it. We can't add a new option.

Can you just replace Elway with Brees? Elway was mistakenly added to the poll for some reason.

[Raiderhater]

Can you just replace Elway with Brees? Elway was mistakenly added to the poll for some reason.

I second this this motion.

[crayzkirk]

It makes me nauseous however I voted for Elway. If you want to look at pure passing statistics, then he shouldn't be anywhere at all. However, he had the ability to win games that the Broncos had no business winning. Maybe it's because I watched the Chiefs give up more leads than any other team to the Broncos.

Totally different era as well, QBs used to be football players and would take some big hits. They are so protected now.

[St. Patty's Fire]

patrick mahomes

[Rain Man]

If you have Excel, here are the top ten quarterbacks by year in the NFL, based on my own weightings of yards, TDs, interceptions, and some other measures. This is based on regular season stats.

[New World Order]

Damn Rain, nice work

[Rain Man]

Based on my analysis, here are the guys who were the best QB in the league more than one season.

Otto Graham* - CLE 5
Benny Friedman* - CLE 4
Brett Favre* - GNB 4
Peyton Manning - IND 4
Steve Young* - SFO 4
Tom Brady - NWE 4
Arnie Herber* - GNB 3
Dan Fouts* - LAC 3
Drew Brees - NOR 3
Sammy Baugh* - WAS 3
Y.A. Tittle* - SFO 3
Cecil Isbell - GNB 2
Dan Marino* - MIA 2
Ed Danowski - NYG 2
Fran Tarkenton* - MIN 2
Frank Filchock - WAS 2
Jim Everett - LAR 2
John Brodie - SFO 2
Johnny Unitas* - IND 2
Kurt Warner* - LAR 2
Norm Van Brocklin* - LAR 2
Roger Staubach* - DAL 2
Sonny Jurgensen* - WAS 2

[smithandrew051]

It makes me nauseous however I voted for Elway. If you want to look at pure passing statistics, then he shouldn't be anywhere at all. However, he had the ability to win games that the Broncos had no business winning. Maybe it's because I watched the Chiefs give up more leads than any other team to the Broncos.

Totally different era as well, QBs used to be football players and would take some big hits. They are so protected now.

I get that he occasionally had late game magic....bbbuuuuuutttt maybe if he put up better passing numbers throughout the game, he wouldn’t have needed the late game magic. He would’ve won those games more comfortably.

All time great? Sure. I just can’t get past such pedestrian passing statistics in the GOAT conversation.

[staylor26]

Brady

[Wallcrawler]

Joe Montana, and its not even close. 4-0 in superbowl appearances when it was a ****ing mans game.

None of this built for TV offense bullshit where the qb might as well have secret service agents in the pocket with him. Defenders cant touch receivers, much less lay down intimidating hits over the middle. Might as well be flag football now.

God Id love to see Brady play ONE game in that era. Longest piss trail back home to mommy and daddy you ever seen.

Chris Jones slapped his shoulderpad lightly and it was a 15 yard personal foul. The little bitch didnt even get moved off his spot much less go down and its a 15 yard penalty. Anytime hes touched, Brady is off crying to an official about it. Biggest cunt strapping up a helmet today.

Brady's longevity and "greatness" have been manufactured by the pussification of the NFL.

Joe's still the ****ing man, period.

[Rain Man]

Here are the number of seasons that every quarterback was a top-three quarterback. I like this analysis because it somewhat controls for eras. More seasons mean that there were more times that the quarterback put his team in a good position for a championship.

I'll highlight a few interesting ones in bold font.

Peyton Manning - IND 12
Otto Graham* - CLE 8
Brett Favre* - GNB 7
Dan Marino* - MIA 7
Drew Brees - NOR 7
Johnny Unitas* - IND 7
Sammy Baugh* - WAS 7
Fran Tarkenton* - MIN 6
Joe Montana* - SFO 6
Sid Luckman* - CHI 6
Tom Brady - NWE 6
Aaron Rodgers - GNB 5
Arnie Herber* - GNB 5
Bobby Layne* - DET 5
Norm Van Brocklin* - LAR 5
Sonny Jurgensen* - PHI 5
Y.A. Tittle* - SFO 5
Benny Friedman* - CLE 4
Dan Fouts* - LAC 4
Ken Anderson - CIN 4
Len Dawson* - KAN 4
Roger Staubach* - DAL 4
Steve Young* - SFO 4
Drew Bledsoe - NWE 3
Ed Danowski - NYG 3
John Hadl - LAC 3
Ken Stabler* - OAK 3
Kurt Warner* - LAR 3
Philip Rivers - LAC 3
Red Dunn - GNB 3
Tobin Rote - GNB 3
Warren Moon* - TEN 3
Wild Bill Kelly - EXT 3
Ace Parker* - EXT 2
Bert Jones - IND 2
Bob Griese* - MIA 2
Bob Monnett - GNB 2
Bob Waterfield* - LAR 2
Boomer Esiason - CIN 2
Carson Palmer - CIN 2
Cecil Isbell - GNB 2
Curly Lambeau* - GNB 2
Daryle Lamonica - OAK 2
Daunte Culpepper - MIN 2
Ernie Nevers* - ARI 2
Frank Filchock - WAS 2
Frankie Albert - SFO 2
Glenn Presnell - EXT 2
Hust Stockton - EXT 2
Jack McBride - NYG 2
Jim Everett - LAR 2
Joe Namath* - NYJ 2
John Brodie - SFO 2
Ken O'Brien - NYJ 2
Matt Ryan - ATL 2
Milt Plum - CLE 2
Neil Lomax - ARI 2
Norm Snead - NYG 2
Randall Cunningham - PHI 2
Rich Gannon - OAK 2
Sonny Winters - EXT 2
Steve Bartkowski - ATL 2
Troy Aikman* - DAL 2

I'll put the one-timers like Elway and Brian Sipe and Elmer Oliphant in a spoiler since there are a ton of them.

Adrian Burk - PHI 1
Al Dorow - NYJ 1
Al Mahrt - EXT 1
Alex Smith - KAN 1
Andrew Luck - IND 1
Babe Parilli - NWE 1
Ben Roethlisberger - PIT 1
Benny Boynton - EXT 1
Bernie Masterson - CHI 1
Billy Wade - LAR 1
Bobby Thomason - PHI 1
Brian Sipe - CLE 1
Charley Johnson - ARI 1
Davey O'Brien - PHI 1
Don Majkowski - GNB 1
Donovan McNabb - PHI 1
Dutch Clark* - DET 1
Earl Morrall - IND 1
Ed Brown - CHI 1
Ed Matesic - PIT 1
Eddie Scharer - DET 1
Elmer Oliphant - BUF 1
Ernie Caddel - DET 1
Frank Ryan - CLE 1
Frankie Sinkwich - DET 1
Fritz Pollard* - EXT 1
Gene Gedman - DET 1
George Blanda* - TEN 1
George Ratterman - EXT 1
Glenn Dobbs - EXT 1
Harry Newman - NYG 1
Hoge Workman - CLE 1
Irv Comp - GNB 1
Jack Ernst - EXT 1
Jeff Garcia - SFO 1
Jeff George - OAK 1
Jim Finks* - PIT 1
Jim Hart - ARI 1
Jim Kelly* - BUF 1
Jimmy Conzelman* - EXT 1
Joe Ferguson - BUF 1
Joe Theismann - WAS 1
John Elway* - DEN 1
Johnny Lujack - CHI 1
Keith Molesworth - CHI 1
Ken Mercer - EXT 1
Ken Strong* - NYG 1
Lou Smyth - EXT 1
Lynn Dickey - GNB 1
Marc Bulger - LAR 1
Mark Rypien - WAS 1
Matt Hasselbeck - SEA 1
Matthew Stafford - DET 1
Paddy Driscoll* - CHI 1
Pard Pearce - Chi 1
Parker Hall - LAR 1
Patrick Mahomes - KAN 1 (100 percent of starting seasons)
Rip King - EXT 1
Roman Gabriel - PHI 1
Rudy Bukich - CHI 1
Russell Wilson - SEA 1
Scott Mitchell - DET 1
Shorty Barr - EXT 1
Steve Beuerlein - CAR 1
Steve DeBerg - KAN 1
Terry Bradshaw* - PIT 1
Tommy Hughitt - BUF 1
Tony Canadeo* - GNB 1
Tony Romo - DAL 1
Trent Green - KAN 1
Vinny Testaverde - BAL 1
Walt Holmer - CHI 1
Warren Heller - PIT 1

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Rainman, what stat are you using to determine best QB?

[chiefzilla1501]

Joe Montana, and its not even close. 4-0 in superbowl appearances when it was a ****ing mans game.

None of this built for TV offense bullshit where the qb might as well have secret service agents in the pocket with him. Defenders cant touch receivers, much less lay down intimidating hits over the middle. Might as well be flag football now.

God Id love to see Brady play ONE game in that era. Longest piss trail back home to mommy and daddy you ever seen.

Chris Jones slapped his shoulderpad lightly and it was a 15 yard personal foul. The little bitch didnt even get moved off his spot much less go down and its a 15 yard penalty. Anytime hes touched, Brady is off crying to an official about it. Biggest **** strapping up a helmet today.

Brady's longevity and "greatness" have been manufactured by the pussification of the NFL.

Joe's still the ****ing man, period.

You do realize Brady has been playing since 2002, right? Early in his career he was winning games in similar ways that Montana did. I'm a huge fan of Montana. But the idea that Brady was built by his era or by bellichick is nonsense.

[RealSNR]

You said "other than Patrick Mahomes," but I decided to disobey the rules similar to Tom Brady wiping his phone before handing it over in the NFL in the deflategate investigation.

I chose "other," and that "other" is a vote for Patrick Mahomes.

[Rain Man]

Rainman, what stat are you using to determine best QB?

I built an algorithm a while back because I knew we would need it at some point. I weighted every QB as follows:

Sum of their rank among QBs that year on yards per attempt, yards, completion percentage, TD passes, interception percentage, and (with a 1/10th weighting) starts. Starts is just because there were no other stats available in the early days of the NFL. I then added the square root of the two smallest (best) ranks and subtracted the square root of the two largest (worst) ranks in those measures, because sometimes an outlier would throw a quarterback's score way off.

[ThaVirus]

There are a lot of factors, but I don't think you could go wrong with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young.

[ThaVirus]

2010 postseason-2011 regular season Aaron Rodgers is the peak. He's probably got the best arm talent I've ever seen.

Guys like Brady, Montana and Otto Graham have the best resumes.

Marino and Manning just fucking got it done. For multiple unlucky reasons they just weren't able to rally through to get all the team accolades that are so important to gauging QBs.

Steve Young and Kurt Warner didn't do it for long enough.

Brees is a stat whore douche. Guy doesn't even win his division more often than not.

Idk why people even mention Elway or Favre in the GOAT conversation..

[Bump]

Brady has the rings and probably nobody will ever have as many as he has. At least I doubt that.

[Easy 6]

Brady has the rings and probably nobody will ever have as many as he has. At least I doubt that.

Back in the no skirts allowed era, Brady would be carrying Joes jockstrap around for him

[BWillie]

YA Tittle

[Best22]

This, honestly, is crap. The Colts defense was pretty solid alot of those years. As for talent -- BOTH Harrison AND Wayne are better than any receiver Brady ever had outside of 3 lousy years of Moss. Their OLine was revered when they had Mudd. Jeff Saturday was no slouch, and Tarik Glenn was very good. Running backs -- Edge was excellent, and Addai was above average.

Don't get me wrong -- nobody will confuse the Peyton-era Colts with the 60s Packers or 70s Steelers for talent -- but it was a different league. They weren't suffering for talent relative to the rest of the NFL.

Yep. Those old Colts teams were pretty loaded. Brady/Belichick>Manning/Dungy.

[Best22]

Back in the no skirts allowed era, Brady would be carrying Joes jockstrap around for him

Brady was healthier relative to his peers than Montana

Also, why do so many fans here worship Elway? He was a very good QB but not a GOAT. He was no better than Favre. And Favre won 3 straight MVPs. It took a strike-shortened season for Elway to even win 1. He had the most expensive team in the AFC in the pre-salary cap 1980s, and “dragged” good defensive teams to SBs by beating the Cleveland Browns—notorious chokers (those games gave them their reputation). Real good player, but he enjoyed a really good situation in Denver (until the early 90s when his feud with Reeves boiled over)

[ThaVirus]

Brady's had offensive talent too.

Moss is one of the best receivers of all all time, probably the best deep threat WR. Wes Welker was possibly the best slot receiver of all time. Gronk was one of the best TEs of all time. Hernandez, Edelman, Gordon, etc. He's had people to throw to. And that's not to mention his OL and stable of RBs.

[vailpass]

Poll should be split into two sections: before the rules eliminated defense in the NFL and after.

[Naptown Chief]

Back in the no skirts allowed era, Brady would be carrying Joes jockstrap around for him

Prefers to carry his son's while making out with him...

[BigCatDaddy]

Poll should be split into two sections: before the rules eliminated defense in the NFL and after.

Joe and Tom owned those eras. That makes it easy.

[Naptown Chief]

Joe and Tom owned those eras. That makes it easy.

Indeed. He may look 1/2 skeletor and 1/2 pedophile, but Tongue Ticklin' Tom was a God damned good QB.

[BigCatDaddy]

No matter the sport..getting the rings and being clutch account for a nice chunk of the GOAT equation which is why
Tom>Peyton
Jordan>Everyone else

[vailpass]

Joe and Tom owned those eras. That makes it easy.

That’s definitely one argument. Among several. Problem with having been here this long is topics like this have been done so many times it’s like a rerun.

Might be interesting to pull up all of the other threads on this same topic to see if anyone’s opinions have evolved.

[MahiMike]

Looking at that list I want to say Montana or Marino.

Notice how the greatest QBs names start with "M"?

Marino, Montana, Mahomes, Manning.

Brady is the best system QB of all time. Any of the "M"s would win 6 or more rings with belichick.

[smithandrew051]

1. Brady
2. Montana (edge to Brady because of the prolonged success, titles, and being the best QB of the “Passing League” NFL)
3. Peyton
4. Marino (no titles, but ridiculous numbers in the Pre-Passing League era)
5. Aaron Rodgers (at his best, he was the best I’ve ever seen)

I fully expect Mahomes to crack this list someday though.

[MahiMike]

I realize that I should say Joe Montana, but I have to vote for Dan Marino. That guy was amazing. He was almost Mahomes-ian in his abilities.

This probably isn't fair to Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas, or Sammy Baugh for that matter. Those guys were before my time, but if you look at them relative to their time, they were amazing players.

Sammy Baugh threw for almost 3,000 yards in 1947 with a 90+ passer rating, and Otto Graham dominated the league for years in both production and championships. Johnny Unitas was the first NFL passer to hit 3,000 yards in 1960, and he did it in a 12-game season.

We think alike. Folks compare Mahomes to favre but he reminds me more of Marino. We all know it's belichick winning those rings. Hell just look at last year's AFC championship game. Mahomes would have beat Brady there if not for belichick.

[Raiderhater]

Poll should be split into two sections: before the rules eliminated defense in the NFL and after.

Completely agree.

[crispystl]

Greatest passer of all time is Brees or Warner; everyone else can vie for #3 if they'd like, but as pure passers I've never seen anyone better than those 2.

Greatest multi-threat QB of all time is Steve Young. I think you could've given him any coach and any system at any time and he'd have been able to execute it at the highest level. Steve Young is criminally underrated.


Thank You! I say this all the time. Steve Young is so damn underrated. I suppose it is because he started with the bucs then went over to San Francisco and was overshadowed by Montana, but he was insane good at the peak of his career.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Deberg_1990]

Speaking of wilting under pressure, have you ever seen a summary of Elway's performances in the postseason?

5 super bowl appearances is pretty damn impressive

[ThaVirus]

Thank You! I say this all the time. Steve Young is so damn underrated. I suppose it is because he started with the bucs then went over to San Francisco and was overshadowed by Montana, but he was insane good at the peak of his career.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

There were twelve QB seasons in the 90s that featured a 100+ passer rating. Steve Young was responsible for six of those.

[Tribal Warfare]

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I voted for Montana, but PMII is the future

[Tges58]

It pains me to say it, but it's Brady, and to me it's not particularly close. Peyton struggled way more in big games than I'd have liked. Warner was probably the most dominant I've seen in a small stretch, but it was very short. Brees... I can't stand behind him. He benefited big time playing in a dome and outside of 1 super bowl, he's been really mediocre in the playoffs. Probably a lot of that because of the dome thing. Really hard to crown someone as GOAT is he was never an mvp.

Which leaves me with Montana and Brady. A lot of similarities. But I saw Brady dominate with reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as his receivers. Whereas Montana typically had an obscene amount of talent.
Montana took KC to the AFCC throwing to guys like Willie Davis, JJ Birden, and Keith Cash.

[Ming the Merciless]

Anyone saying anything other than brady just doesnt understand numbers. There used to be some argument for Montana still...but that is long over. About the only thing you can try and claim , is Montana hasn't lost a SB. But that falls apart, because he lost more in the playoffs...

Its Brady by a country Mile....

[lcarus]

The comeback kid, Joe Cool Montana.

[notorious]

Elway built up all of those comebacks thanks to the deficits he created by throwing picks.

He was good, but way overrated thanks to lore.

[Tribal Warfare]

Anyone saying anything other than brady just doesnt understand numbers. There used to be some argument for Montana still...but that is long over. About the only thing you can try and claim , is Montana hasn't lost a SB. But that falls apart, because he lost more in the playoffs...

Its Brady by a country Mile....

Tuck Rule,, Spygate, deflategate, and other nefarious shit we don't know about



Plus, he had the rules changed to benefit his immobile playing style

His legacy is tarnished

[O.city]

Brady for me. Just has the numbers and longevity of ass kicking

In terms of pure QB, give me Marino. I don’t think anyone has ever been a pure thrower of the football like he was

[crispystl]

There were twelve QB seasons in the 90s that featured a 100+ passer rating. Steve Young was responsible for six of those.Whoa that's crazy. I had no idea. Thanks for that.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Hoopsdoc]

In terms of revolutionizing the way the position is played, and being a clutch player as well, the GOAT is Johnny Unitas. Everyone that followed has been impacted by him in some way.

As far as pure talent along with intelligence, it has to be Peyton Manning.

Brady has had the luxury of spending his entire career playing under the GOAT coach, who pretty much built him into what he is today. Remember, Brady was nothing more than a glorified Alex Smith for the first few years of his career. Belichick coached him into what he is today.

Belichick went 11-5 with Matt Freakin Cassell. That season alone shows you where the success comes from in that organization.

[bdj23]

Why would a Patriots fan start this thread on a chiefs message board? Get a load of this homosexuality.

[ThaVirus]

In terms of revolutionizing the way the position is played, and being a clutch player as well, the GOAT is Johnny Unitas. Everyone that followed has been impacted by him in some way.

As far as pure talent along with intelligence, it has to be Peyton Manning.

Brady has had the luxury of spending his entire career playing under the GOAT coach, who pretty much built him into what he is today. Remember, Brady was nothing more than a glorified Alex Smith for the first few years of his career. Belichick coached him into what he is today.

Belichick went 11-5 with Matt Freakin Cassell. That season alone shows you where the success comes from in that organization.

Also 3-1 during Brady's 4-game suspension with, what, Garropolo and Jacoby Brissett or something?

[Rasputin]

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I voted for Montana, but PMII is the future

This. Patrick is the new era of football kids are going grow up to model their game after him.

[Frazod]

Why would a Patriots fan start this thread on a chiefs message board? Get a load of this homosexuality.

Most of his behavior can be explained by the Latin phrase "cuns gratia cuntis."

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Bernard Pollard

Agreed.

[ChiefaRoo]

Montana because he did the most first by his own hand.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Definitely Brady. Guy has got the stats and the wins to back it up. You'd have to be an idiot or a hater to choose anyone else...

[Pasta Little Brioni]

The point of this thread? So much self worth tied to that joke of an organization. Never seen anything like it...

[BlackOp]

Definitely Brady. Guy has got the stats and the wins to back it up. You'd have to be an idiot or a hater to choose anyone else...

Meh..none of the others have multiple suspensions, fines and docked draft picks except for Elway. That, alone, excludes him from the conversation.

He's been awarded games he's lost for years...there are too many to count. He is an invention of the Kraft/Goodell marriage and the advertising contract. He's a great QB...but his legacy definitely comes with an asterisk.

He's had one controversial officiated game in his entire career... that didn't work in his favor. He had 5 in 2017, alone, that benefited him...

NFL has seen to it that he is the face of the League...and it's gotten to the point of being overtly absurd. Last years SB was the lowest rated in a decade...they went to the well one too many times. Nobody is buying it anymore..

It's kind of a shame as I've seen him make some great, clutch throws...only to have the validity wiped away 3 minutes later when the other team is getting screwed over. It's impossible to gauge how good he really is when the NFL repeatedly hands him wins he shouldn't have....especially in big games.

[Rain Man]

One cannot rationally pick Tom Brady over Otto Graham. Otto Graham had more years as a top-three passer and more championships. So Brady is out of the running unless you want to count something like longevity, and I think Otto Graham may stack up well there too if you control for the shorter average career length in his era due to medical technology and smaller paychecks to keep guys playing.

Logically speaking, it has to be either Peyton Manning (most years as a top-three quarterback by far) or Otto Graham (best combo of top-three years and championships), or Dan Marino (most productive quarterback relative to his era, and subjectively threw the prettiest passes).

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

One cannot rationally pick Tom Brady over Otto Graham. Otto Graham had more years as a top-three passer and more championships. So Brady is out of the running unless you want to count something like longevity, and I think Otto Graham may stack up well there too if you control for the shorter average career length in his era due to medical technology and smaller paychecks to keep guys playing.

Logically speaking, it has to be either Peyton Manning (most years as a top-three quarterback by far) or Otto Graham (best combo of top-three years and championships), or Dan Marino (most productive quarterback relative to his era, and subjectively threw the prettiest passes).

Of course one can. If one is an NFL history illiterate and a moron to boot.

[BlackOp]

Why would a Patriots fan start this thread on a chiefs message board? Get a load of this homosexuality.

Because Mass-holes have to universally perpetuate a void of objectivity.

Once they become retrospectively critical of how exactly their "dynasty" was built...there is no putting that cat back in the sham-bag.

So they have to create this facade of "only losers blame the refs" ...and hide behind GOAT chants. They will never admit what everyone else in the NFL already knows....they cant afford to.

Fans of teams like KC tend to be more objective...because years of being on the losing side of officiating does that. They can rationally see if a team is being given preferential treatment. KC got a beneficial call against SF last year..and I immediately pointed it out. I didn't feel threatened by it but didn't like it either. It's easy to identify when you never get those types of breaks.

Mass-holes are so conditioned to expecting every close call to benefit them...they just accept it as common place. It doesn't bother them at all...and pretend it's somehow skill.

[frozenchief]

Brady has the numbers, but Brady also has a huge question mark: would he have done as well without Bellicheck? Manning did well in Indy and Denver. Montana played under Walsh and Young and then Marty. Favre played in GB, NY and Minnesota. I also think that comparing QBs in the pre-SB era to the post-SB era is quite difficult mainly because the game was so different. The poll has Otto Graham and Johnny U from pre-SB days but you should also consider Sid Luckman.

I would answer the question by asking, “If the game were on the line and you needed a QB who could pick up the team and win, who would it be?” And I have a hard time deciding between some of the QBs. Montana, Elway, Favre and Marino all are legitimate answers to that question. I may think HorseFace is an arrogant SOB but he deserves to be in that discussion.

Considering how well he did under various coaches and in different teams, I think the answer would be Montana, although Favre would be a close second. This is as it stands right now. If PMII plays as he has for the next 10+ years (which he should, barring injury*), he will absolutely be in this discussion if not leading it.

Brady? Undoubtedly a great QB but I always get the sense Brady should have an asterisk labeled ‘Bellicheck’ next to his name. Hate him all you want, there is not a better game coach in the league today. Andy Reid is a great offensive coach but I do not think AR can respond to changes in the game as well as Bellicheck can.

Brees? Based on numbers, he deserves to be in this discussion. He benefited from Peyton and he did well in SD before going to NO. Maybe he doesn’t get his due because he was largely overshadowed by the Brady/Manning battle and I would be thrilled if he were guiding my team if the game were on the line. But while I would be thrilled, there are others higher on my list.

The one other QB currently in the league that I think is intriguing and has potential is Baker Mayfield. He has the tools and the mindset. I don’t know whether Cleveland can pull its head out of its ass to fully capitalize on his talents. If Mayfield were on the Patriots, that would be truly scary. And I think PMII has better talent and will be a better QB. But Mayfield has been impressive, particularly considering what a dumpster fire Cleveland has been.

All of that to say that right now, I’d say Montana. In 10 years, I believe Mahomes will be challenging him for that crown.

* to those who do not want to face this, sorry. It’s a part of the game. I’m cold-bloodedly rational. The bad news is that injuries have wrecked promising QB careers (RGIII) and are serious drags on other QB careers (Luck). The good news is that the rules have changed so that QBs are hit less and are not injured as often. PMII’s odds of suffering such an injury are less than they would have been 20 years ago.

[Halfcan]

Dawson should be on this list. Hofer and SB winner. Besides Montana- the coolest QB ever.

Only QB to be inducted as a player and for his media accomplishments.

[scho63]

Massive fail of thread and poll and posts with no mention I see of Terry Bradshaw.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Deflating football's and the Tuck rule bullshit automatically disqualifies Brady...

[ChiefsFanatic]

I will always consider Montana the greatest QB of all time. If I could pick one QB to bring my team back in the fourth quarter, it would always be Montana.

He threw 16 TDs in the Super Bowl and 0 interceptions. He came to the Chiefs, THE CHIEFS, and nearly took a team with Willie Davis and JJ Birden at WR to the Super Bowl.

I hate to say it, but Brady may be number 2. I think Bellicheat benefitted from Brady way more than the other way around.

Marino, Manning, Elway, Brees, Favre, Rodgers, and maybe Kelly are in the top QBs ever. I know Rodgers only has one Super Bowl, but until Mahomes he is the most gifted QB that I have ever seen. His greatness will never get the recognition it deserves because Green Bay never really seemed to put an effort into surrounding him with players that could help win another SB.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[redfan]

Joe, by a country mile.

[Mennonite]

Fuck the Patriots and all their bitch ass fans.

[rabblerouser]

Montana was blowing shit up when defense was still DEFENSE

It’s Joe, until Mahomes takes his crown...

This.

The guy was 4-0 in the Super Bowl. And he was absolutely perfect in all 4, never threw an interception in the SB.

[Chiefshrink]

for me it's hard to come up with 'The Greatest" just given how much the league has changed/ evolved. And, personally, I don't equate SB wins to a level of greatness; short of a QB carrying his team to a win. It's such a team game, it's hard to say X QB is better than Y because he has more SB wins etc.


This a million times!!! And why I didn't vote. Apples to oranges for sure.;)

[Chiefshrink]

Joe Montana, and its not even close. 4-0 in superbowl appearances when it was a ****ing mans game.

None of this built for TV offense bullshit where the qb might as well have secret service agents in the pocket with him. Defenders cant touch receivers, much less lay down intimidating hits over the middle. Might as well be flag football now.

God Id love to see Brady play ONE game in that era. Longest piss trail back home to mommy and daddy you ever seen.

Chris Jones slapped his shoulderpad lightly and it was a 15 yard personal foul. The little bitch didnt even get moved off his spot much less go down and its a 15 yard penalty. Anytime hes touched, Brady is off crying to an official about it. Biggest **** strapping up a helmet today.

Brady's longevity and "greatness" have been manufactured by the pussification of the NFL.

Joe's still the ****ing man, period.

Nailed It !!

[PAChiefsGuy]

Brady has the numbers, but Brady also has a huge question mark: would he have done as well without Bellicheck? Manning did well in Indy and Denver. Montana played under Walsh and Young and then Marty. Favre played in GB, NY and Minnesota. I also think that comparing QBs in the pre-SB era to the post-SB era is quite difficult mainly because the game was so different. The poll has Otto Graham and Johnny U from pre-SB days but you should also consider Sid Luckman.

I would answer the question by asking, “If the game were on the line and you needed a QB who could pick up the team and win, who would it be?” And I have a hard time deciding between some of the QBs. Montana, Elway, Favre and Marino all are legitimate answers to that question. I may think HorseFace is an arrogant SOB but he deserves to be in that discussion.

Considering how well he did under various coaches and in different teams, I think the answer would be Montana, although Favre would be a close second. This is as it stands right now. If PMII plays as he has for the next 10+ years (which he should, barring injury*), he will absolutely be in this discussion if not leading it.

Brady? Undoubtedly a great QB but I always get the sense Brady should have an asterisk labeled ‘Bellicheck’ next to his name. Hate him all you want, there is not a better game coach in the league today. Andy Reid is a great offensive coach but I do not think AR can respond to changes in the game as well as Bellicheck can.

Brees? Based on numbers, he deserves to be in this discussion. He benefited from Peyton and he did well in SD before going to NO. Maybe he doesn’t get his due because he was largely overshadowed by the Brady/Manning battle and I would be thrilled if he were guiding my team if the game were on the line. But while I would be thrilled, there are others higher on my list.

The one other QB currently in the league that I think is intriguing and has potential is Baker Mayfield. He has the tools and the mindset. I don’t know whether Cleveland can pull its head out of its ass to fully capitalize on his talents. If Mayfield were on the Patriots, that would be truly scary. And I think PMII has better talent and will be a better QB. But Mayfield has been impressive, particularly considering what a dumpster fire Cleveland has been.

All of that to say that right now, I’d say Montana. In 10 years, I believe Mahomes will be challenging him for that crown.

* to those who do not want to face this, sorry. It’s a part of the game. I’m cold-bloodedly rational. The bad news is that injuries have wrecked promising QB careers (RGIII) and are serious drags on other QB careers (Luck). The good news is that the rules have changed so that QBs are hit less and are not injured as often. PMII’s odds of suffering such an injury are less than they would have been 20 years ago.

Every HOF QB has played with a lot of talent or good to great HCs. No one can do it by themselves. So I don't really hold having BB as a HC against Brady. What has BB done without Brady? He was shit in Cleveland as a HC.

Objectively speaking, which is going to hard to do on this board cause lets face it Pats are a bit of a rival of ours --- Brady has the most credentials. He has got the rings, he's got the stats, he's clutch, he takes less money for the betterment of the team, he rarely gets injured and he takes such good care of himself he is still playing well into his 40s. He doesn't need a lot of talent at WR to be effective either.

No other QB in NFL history can stack up to his resume blow for blow. You can create arguments for other QBs but when you look at everything Brady beats them all.

[smithandrew051]

The more comments I read on here and the more I think about it, I’m convinced that the GOAT discussion really comes down to how you define GOAT:

Best total resume: Tom Brady (not really debatable)

QB you would take to go win 1 game when you need it: Joe Montana (pretty much flawless in the Super Bowl)

Most productive compared to their era: Dan Marino (insane numbers for the time)

Most transformational: Johnny Unitas (changed the game; way ahead of his time)

Most pure ability: Rodgers or Mahomes

Most cerebral: Peyton Manning (debatable)

Most mediocre for a long period of time: John Elway

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Joe based on the era alone. Brady would have died on his first trip to Chicago.

[Tribal Warfare]

Joe based on the era alone. Brady would have died on his first trip to Chicago.

He wouldn't have survived LT either

[Rain Man]

He wouldn't have survived LT either

I've seen a few videos of LT, and they would interview guys like Ron Jaworski. It gives me a lot more respect for guys like Jaworski that they went out there twice a year against LT.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

He wouldn't have survived LT either

I've seen a few videos of LT, and they would interview guys like Ron Jaworski. It gives me a lot more respect for guys like Jaworski that they went out there twice a year against LT.

^^^^ These.

[PatsWinAgain]

The 41 year old QB that lead his team to a victory in an AFC game. He’s the greatest. Anyone who argues otherwise is just a HATER.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

The 41 year old QB that lead his team to a victory in an AFC game. He’s the greatest. Anyone who argues otherwise is just a HATER.

Not really. If Brady would have been drafted by Cleveland do you think he'd have even had a career. BB has made Brady what he is and without BB he would have been another Brian Hoyer.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Not really. If Brady would have been drafted by Cleveland do you think he'd have even had a career. BB has made Brady what he is and without BB he would have been another Brian Hoyer.

It's a team game. No one can do it by themselves. You think Mahomes throws for 50 TDs last year if he doesnt have Reid as a HC? Think Montana didnt benefit from having Rice and all the weapons the 49ers have? In basketball, MJ w Phil Jackson?

You cant expect any QB to become the GOAT by themselves. Every one needs some help

[New World Order]

It's a team game. No one can do it by themselves. You think Mahomes throws for 50 TDs last year if he doesnt have Reid as a HC? Think Montana didnt benefit from having Rice and all the weapons the 49ers have? In basketball, MJ w Phil Jackson?

You cant expect any QB to become the GOAT by themselves. Every one needs some help

Brady had all of the pieces fall into place.

Obviously he's good but he's also been blessed with the greatest front office in NFL history, the greatest defensive coach of all-time and a crappy division pretty much his entire career.

If you're talking about talent/offensive production Brady isn't the best.

[BlackOp]

It's a team game. No one can do it by themselves. You think Mahomes throws for 50 TDs last year if he doesnt have Reid as a HC? Think Montana didnt benefit from having Rice and all the weapons the 49ers have? In basketball, MJ w Phil Jackson?

You cant expect any QB to become the GOAT by themselves. Every one needs some help

Go back and see how many times the refs rescued Montana...you know, if he was trailing in an important game and needed to be bailed out. How many game winning TDs were taken off the board so he could get HFA?

They didn't do that back then...the Manning/Brady era ushered in the manufacturing of fake champions for advertising revue. NFL corporate learned that name brand QBs get higher ratings...as does keeping games artificially close by calling timely penalties.

[Amnorix]

Massive fail of thread and poll and posts with no mention I see of Terry Bradshaw.


I admit that missing Brees is a massive oversight. Does anyone actually think Terry Bradshaw might be the best QB ever? One MVP, two SB MVPs, and three Pro Bowls? That's like his whole resume, other than, of course, four SB wins that were on teams with legendary defenses and running games.

I mean -- 212 TDs and 210 INTs. I know it was a different era...but even for that era, that ain't good.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I admit that missing Brees is a massive oversight. Does anyone actually think Terry Bradshaw might be the best QB ever? One MVP, two SB MVPs, and three Pro Bowls? That's like his whole resume, other than, of course, four SB wins that were on teams with legendary defenses and running games.

I mean -- 212 TDs and 210 INTs. I know it was a different era...but even for that era, that ain't good.

Agreed. But you put Elway on the list and he shouldn't be.

[Amnorix]

Agreed. But you put Elway on the list and he shouldn't be.


I hear you, and I wouldn't put him anywhere close to there, but I do see him mentioned in at least the top 10 if not top 5 with some regularity, whereas I never see Bradshaw mentioned that high. Obviously opinions can differ, and I see Elway has garnered a couple of votes.

[Rain Man]

I hear you, and I wouldn't put him anywhere close to there, but I do see him mentioned in at least the top 10 if not top 5 with some regularity, whereas I never see Bradshaw mentioned that high. Obviously opinions can differ, and I see Elway has garnered a couple of votes.

Yeah, but one of those votes has 'crazy' in his name, and other is ... patteeu?

Patteeu? What happened? Did you accidentally click the wrong button?

[PatsWinAgain]

Not really. If Brady would have been drafted by Cleveland do you think he'd have even had a career. BB has made Brady what he is and without BB he would have been another Brian Hoyer.

We can play the “Ifs” game basically with every player ever.

BB didn’t win nothing before Brady. BB’s record as a head coach in Cleveland during the 91-95 season was 36-44. He had Bernie Cosar and Testaverde as QBs during that time. He had Bledsoe who was at the time was a top 10 QB. Still didn’t win nothing. Brady won the Super Bowl with the same exact team. BB didn’t win jack shit as a head coach before Brady.

[PatsWinAgain]

This.

The guy was 4-0 in the Super Bowl. And he was absolutely perfect in all 4, never threw an interception in the SB.

Montana played the non-salary cap era. Money bought and keeped the best talent on the same team. Montana’s team was stacked with talent when he was with SF. Stacked like The team that got spanked twice Patriots. You know, the team that cried foul about the over time rules LoL.

People also forget that Montana had 4, 1&done in the playoffs. He never even got the chance to lose the Conference Championships game. He got sent home early in the playoffs. Prob went fishing with Andy Reed.

[scho63]

Get lost fuck face.

Fuck face is such an underused and underappreciate insult! :LOL:

[scho63]

Most mediocre for a long period of time: John Elway

If he was mediocre for a long period of time, we must have REALLY sucked because sadly we were his bitch for most of the time he as QB, minus the Monday Night Miracle with Joe Montana. The GOAT of Super Bowls.

[Rain Man]

If he was mediocre for a long period of time, we must have REALLY sucked because sadly we were his bitch for most of the time he as QB, minus the Monday Night Miracle with Joe Montana. The GOAT of Super Bowls.

The Chiefs and Broncos have played each other 118 times in their history. In those 118 games, the Broncos averaged a score of 20.6 points. The two teams played 33 games against each other from 1983 through 1998, when John Elway was active. In those 33 games, the Broncos averaged a score of 21.1 points. So Elway was worth half a point per game over the likes of Jake Plummer, Trevor Simien, Kelly Tripucka, and Tim Tebow.

Elway was a mediocre quarterback.

[Buehler445]

Question: Why doesn't anyone criticize Brees for this?

The dude has 2 of the most inexplicable losses of all time on his playoff resume. The 2010 1st round home playoff loss to a 7-9 football team. A Seahawks team that was losing 35-10 in the 4th quarter the following week to a Lovie Smith coached Bears squad before putting up 2 garbage time scores and losing in a slightly less embarrassing manner.

And being outgunned by Alex Smith.

And people want to give him a pass on that goofy Minnesota loss when his safety missed the tackle and they lost w/ 0:00 on the clock but Drew - maybe don't throw 2 picks? And the Rams PI last year was brutal but Brees was in full dink/dunk mode by then and was incapable of putting the Rams away in that game. The Saints had their foot on the Rams neck in the 1st half and got virtually nothing out of it. With the ball first, an interception (giving them the ball at the Ram 16) and a 3 and out, the Saints converted 1 of those opportunities into 6 because Brees couldn't power the football into small windows in the red zone. Up 20-10 in the 2nd half and the Saints go Punt, Punt, FG to keep the Rams alive.

And for as bad as the PI was - the Saints had the football to start OT and Brees cut their throats with that pick.

Nobody EVER says "hey wait a minute now - what about Brees in the post-season...." but Manning takes worlds of shit for it. Just seems strange to me.

Excellent point. I love Brees but he’s shit the bed a few times. And Manning is continually underrated.

I mean FFS his head coach was brought in to run the buttfucking Tampon 2 and was the mentor of Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards (fuck that fucking guy). Let’s be real here. The one thing Dungy was there to do remarkably consistently sucked ass. Manning won despite that fuckhead. If you’re going to discredit Brady for Belicheat you have to give manning a ton of credit for Dungy. And Kubiak isn’t materially better.

[Buehler445]

Rain Man did some excellent work.

My guy would have to be Unitas. We want to give credit for Montana playing a mans game, fuuuuuuck playing with leather helmets and no rules.

It might be such a thing that I haven’t seen him shit the bed which he undoubtedly did, so I may have an overly utopian view.

But that’s the guy IMO.

[MMXcalibur]

Personally, I think this topic should have been closed after the initial reply.

[WhiteWhale]

Question: Why doesn't anyone criticize Brees for this?

The dude has 2 of the most inexplicable losses of all time on his playoff resume. The 2010 1st round home playoff loss to a 7-9 football team. A Seahawks team that was losing 35-10 in the 4th quarter the following week to a Lovie Smith coached Bears squad before putting up 2 garbage time scores and losing in a slightly less embarrassing manner.

And being outgunned by Alex Smith.

And people want to give him a pass on that goofy Minnesota loss when his safety missed the tackle and they lost w/ 0:00 on the clock but Drew - maybe don't throw 2 picks? And the Rams PI last year was brutal but Brees was in full dink/dunk mode by then and was incapable of putting the Rams away in that game. The Saints had their foot on the Rams neck in the 1st half and got virtually nothing out of it. With the ball first, an interception (giving them the ball at the Ram 16) and a 3 and out, the Saints converted 1 of those opportunities into 6 because Brees couldn't power the football into small windows in the red zone. Up 20-10 in the 2nd half and the Saints go Punt, Punt, FG to keep the Rams alive.

And for as bad as the PI was - the Saints had the football to start OT and Brees cut their throats with that pick.

Nobody EVER says "hey wait a minute now - what about Brees in the post-season...." but Manning takes worlds of shit for it. Just seems strange to me.

Do you want me to unpack this?

Because honestly you're a smart guy. You should be able to figure this out.

There's a very good reason Manning takes shit for his playoff underperformances. They were common, especially early in his career. Taking a cast of all-stars and failing to score 20 points in a ton of losses hurt. If Patrick Mahomes had gone into the playoffs and the team scored 13 points in a loss to the pats, criticism would be justified. Dude threw 49 TD's in a season and their season ended against the Patriots as Manning and his obscenely talented offense put up 3 points. THREE POINTS! He did what Jared Goff did.

Throwing 3 TD's and 7 INT's en route to his first superbowl win wasn't too impressive either. The defense carried them to 3 of those wins.

Not showing up for the second super bowl appearance.

I won't even dignify the last SB win. 20 QB's could have won the SB on that team. Manning wasn't Manning anymore. He was a shadow.

To Manning's credit, he NEVER had an offensive coach like Payton. Not even close. He had Tony Dungy. Jon Fox. So in terms of coaching he was never at an advantage compared to most successful QB's. No Walsh or Holmgren. No Denny Green or Mike Martz. That's the only out he gets.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Brady had all of the pieces fall into place.

Obviously he's good but he's also been blessed with the greatest front office in NFL history, the greatest defensive coach of all-time and a crappy division pretty much his entire career.

If you're talking about talent/offensive production Brady isn't the best.

And Mahomes is playing in the most QB friendly era with a genius offensive HC... So if you are going to criticize Brady for that make sure you bring up what I just mentioned the next time you brag about Mahomes throwing 50 TDs and winning MVP. Can't have it both ways.

Every great QB has had benefits of good to great supporting cast.. Again, team game.

[Amnorix]

Interesting results.

I'm not surprised Montana won it. He was my #1 until Brady came along, and remains my #2. I'm certainly not going to bad-mouth the guy. He was pure money, and fun as hell to watch.

Interesting that there's clearly just two guys at the very top, and everyone else is waaaay behind. Brady, in 2nd, got more votes than everyone else combined, and then Joe in turn was a pretty good distance ahead of Brady.

The Brady/Manning debate isn't much of a debate anymore it seems. It certainly consumed a ton of bandwidth at one time across the entire internet, including here.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

JFC you're pathetic

[Amnorix]

The Chiefs and Broncos have played each other 118 times in their history. In those 118 games, the Broncos averaged a score of 20.6 points. The two teams played 33 games against each other from 1983 through 1998, when John Elway was active. In those 33 games, the Broncos averaged a score of 21.1 points. So Elway was worth half a point per game over the likes of Jake Plummer, Trevor Simien, Kelly Tripucka, and Tim Tebow.

Elway was a mediocre quarterback.



I know you're better at stats than that. Some of those years the Chiefs were fielding absurdly good defenses.

Let's put everything else aside -- if he was mediocre, then you (and other Chiefs fans) wouldn't hate him. Mediocrity doesn't earn hatred, it most typically earns apathy.

[Amnorix]

JFC you're pathetic

For summarizing voting results??

I'm not certain whether your obsessive hatred of the Patriots is sad or funny. Probably some of both to be honest.

[New World Order]

And Mahomes is playing in the most QB friendly era with a genius offensive HC... So if you are going to criticize Brady for that make sure you bring up what I just mentioned the next time you brag about Mahomes throwing 50 TDs and winning MVP. Can't have it both ways.

Every great QB has had benefits of good to great supporting cast.. Again, team game.

Brady has had the luxury of having absolutely everything from front office to coaching to the right offensive and defensive talent around him.

He's had every piece to the puzzle because NE does all of the right things.

Mahomes would still be elite and an MVP candidate if he didn't play in KC, but there's no way Brady sniffs 6 sbs and is considered the GOAT if he didn't have all of the pieces in place.

[New World Order]

JFC you're pathetic

What kind of douchebag goes to a rival's team and posts this type of thread?

[smithandrew051]

I know you're better at stats than that. Some of those years the Chiefs were fielding absurdly good defenses.

Let's put everything else aside -- if he was mediocre, then you (and other Chiefs fans) wouldn't hate him. Mediocrity doesn't earn hatred, it most typically earns apathy.

He played for a successful division rival. That will always earn hate.

I get more annoyed with the Elway hype than anything. If you dig into his stats, he’s really nothing special.

Even if you account for not playing in a “Passing league”, his stats are still mediocre. 3200 yards, 19 TDs, 14 picks per year.

[Rain Man]

I know you're better at stats than that. Some of those years the Chiefs were fielding absurdly good defenses.

Let's put everything else aside -- if he was mediocre, then you (and other Chiefs fans) wouldn't hate him. Mediocrity doesn't earn hatred, it most typically earns apathy.

The Chiefs fielded absurdly good defenses in other years too, though. There was a ten year stretch before Mr. Elway intruded into our division where the Chiefs were fielding five to six Hall of Famers on defense in the same lineup. Mr. Elway was in the lineup for more than 25 percent of our games against them, so it all evens out in terms of competition.

I actually despise him in part because he WAS mediocre and somehow gets this "greatness" label when every single objective measurement says that he was mediocre. The only area where he excelled was that he played a long time, and he was a #1 pick (by the Colts). He also forced his way from the Colts to a playoff-caliber team, which bolstered his numbers artificially.

He played for a successful division rival. That will always earn hate.

I get more annoyed with the Elway hype than anything. If you dig into his stats, he’s really nothing special.

Even if you account for not playing in a “Passing league”, his stats are still mediocre. 3200 yards, 19 TDs, 14 picks per year.

Yes. Yes. (Pause.) Yes.

[smithandrew051]

The Chiefs fielded absurdly good defenses in other years too, though. There was a ten year stretch before Mr. Elway intruded into our division where the Chiefs were fielding five to six Hall of Famers on defense in the same lineup. Mr. Elway was in the lineup for more than 25 percent of our games against them, so it all evens out in terms of competition.

I actually despise him in part because he WAS mediocre and somehow gets this "greatness" label when every single objective measurement says that he was mediocre. The only area where he excelled was that he played a long time, and he was a #1 pick (by the Colts). He also forced his way from the Colts to a playoff-caliber team, which bolstered his numbers artificially.



Yes. Yes. (Pause.) Yes.

Eli Manning has thrown touchdowns at a higher rate than Elway and thrown interceptions at a lower rate than Elway. Elway was basically Eli Manning.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Brady has had the luxury of having absolutely everything from front office to coaching to the right offensive and defensive talent around him.

He's had every piece to the puzzle because NE does all of the right things.

Mahomes would still be elite and an MVP candidate if he didn't play in KC, but there's no way Brady sniffs 6 sbs and is considered the GOAT if he didn't have all of the pieces in place.

Okay so Mahomes>Brady. Thanks for clearing that up

[New World Order]

Eli Manning has thrown touchdowns at a higher rate than Elway and thrown interceptions at a lower rate than Elway. Elway was basically Eli Manning.

YES

YES YES YES!!!

[Rain Man]

YES

YES YES YES!!!

Eli Manning is also a better clutch quarterback by far because...

Aw, geez, I hate Eli Manning too because he did the same thing cheating the draft that Elway did. I need a different example.

[Easy 6]

Brady has had the luxury of having absolutely everything from front office to coaching to the right offensive and defensive talent around him.

He's had every piece to the puzzle because NE does all of the right things.

Mahomes would still be elite and an MVP candidate if he didn't play in KC, but there's no way Brady sniffs 6 sbs and is considered the GOAT if he didn't have all of the pieces in place.

Not to mention what a shitshow the AFCE has been for virtually all of Brady’s “reign”, it’s been an almost guaranteed 6 wins for them over the years

I just watched a 30 minute Montana highlight earlier, and Brady has NEVER taken some of the shots Joe did

Montana’s era was sooo much tougher than what Brady dealt with, it’s not even close

Montana wins, you were never leaving here with a victory

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

JFC you're pathetic

I know. I wish that fool would line up the rest of the fools and go take a diving parade in to a river of boiling acid.

[jjchieffan]

Johnny Unitas, followed by Montana then Brady. But soon, they will all be eclipsed by the great Showtime Mahomes!

[Boon]

Montana now.
Mahomes in 5 years.

[Chieftain]

I know you're better at stats than that. Some of those years the Chiefs were fielding absurdly good defenses.

Let's put everything else aside -- if he was mediocre, then you (and other Chiefs fans) wouldn't hate him. Mediocrity doesn't earn hatred, it most typically earns apathy.

I did some digging and found that Elway's record vs Chiefs is 18-12 (including playoffs). That's not ownage by any means. Surely not like Brady has owned the Jets and the rest of that division. In fact, it's the Chiefs who have owned the AFC West division if we go by the all time games played. The Chiefs are one of only 3 NFL teams who have a winning record against all their division opponents. The other two teams I believe are the Steelers and Cowboys (not sure?!).

[CapsLockKey]

Not old enough to have seen Unitas, otherwise I'd consider him. If I were to put every QB in the exact same situation, (surrounding team, coach, level of competition, era) I'd take Marino or Farve. You could plug them into any system and they'd be MVP material.

Montana is the most clutch. Brady the most successful and consistent.

In their prime, you take Marino or Farve (pre Rodgers) off their respective teams and they are picking in the top 10 of the draft on a regular basis. Take Montana and Brady off their teams and they are still playoff contenders.

[Raiderhater]

Eli Manning has thrown touchdowns at a higher rate than Elway and thrown interceptions at a lower rate than Elway. Elway was basically Eli Manning.

Except for the fact that Eli was undefeated in Super Bowl appearances.

[rico]

It’s Brady (since Mahomes isn’t an option, of course :D. ).

The success, the consistency, the consistent success, the adaptability, the proven ability to succeed in both shitty and favorable QB circumstances, the ability to spread the ball around efficiently, etc... It’s tough to make a case against him. There isn’t a knock on him.

I don’t even really dislike the guy. Boston fans kind of rubbed me the wrong way the one time I met them, which was Game 4 of the 2004 World Series when they finished the sweep over the Cardinals... I’ve never had fans be more obnoxious and in our faces (while not even provoked by the opposing fan base) than the shit we took from the fuckwads who were at that game, but I’m not going to hold that against Brady...although it was difficult not to for a long time. After watching that documentary about him where they chronicle his path and the WB’s who were selected ahead of him in the draft, I walked away thinking the dude is actually pretty fucking cool. Would have loved to have had the dude in KC, but that’s ok because MAHOMES. I just love how Brady approaches Kraft as a rookie at TC and confidently told him, “I am the best decision this organization has ever made.”

Tom Brady...

then Dan Marino-Joe Montana-Drew Brees...

[synthesis2]

I think it easy to say Brady and move on but from my perspective (which really has zero baring on anything) I don't think he is top 5.

Why? Well there are soooooo many variables that come into play for winning championships and I would agree that the QB is a important cog in the outcome but at what amount? So lets say that a QB accounts for about 20% max of an outcome of a game, I think it could be argued less but leave it at 20%. Between the division they have played in as well as the defense constructed by the best head coach in history, albeit the crabbiest man alive, gives a huge advantage. Defense and coaching probably could be argued help a team at 50-60% of the outcome of the game with the remaining 20-30% coming from the rest of the offense.

No doubt Brady is good but his stats are just ho hum thru his entire career, passing td, int etc. but his wins and superbowls are why everyone loved the guy. If he gets drafted by a bad team with a bad coach etc etc with his talent ( which was 7th round? ) he's just another guy but with Billie and his defense and coaching it makes him look completely different.

from my perspective the GOAT argument in golf, tennis etc is easy, its just you and that's it. but in a team sport especially with so many players it comes down to who did the most with the least.

I know he isn't a QB but this is why someone like Barry Sanders is so special and could be the GOAT. He played on absolutely awful teams but was a man amongst boys. The only reason they were relevant at all was because of Barry, if he wasn't on the team they may have won 1-4 games every season but with him they got to the playoffs many times.

Without Brady the Pats still had great seasons and were able to spin the QB's off for big money and draft comp. Cassel and Grap. etc .

Brady is the GOAT for titles but nowhere near the GOAT for the best in the history of the league and the impact that he had. For that title I think he is probably in the 20-30's.

[Bowser]

Literally any QB BUT Tom Brady. Because fuck this thread.

[KChiefs1]

Since 2000:

https://twitter.com/reinhurdler/status/1262854290806366208?s=21

[Pablo]

Almost forgot what a faggot OP was. Coming over here to get his Tom Brady dick sucking in and then disappearing for all time because we hurt his heart.

[RoyalsAndSaints]

Drew Brees.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Pat passes him in 10 years.

[displacedinMN]

Montana
Brady

Greatest of right now----Mahomes

[MAHOMO 4 LIFE!]

Brady than Mahomes

[Rain Man]

This thread didn't age well.

[big nasty kcnut]

Len dawson should be considered one of the greats 5 championship as chiefs qb

[LiveSteam]

Im the Greatest Of All Time.

[JD10367]

Drew Brees.

Wouldn’t surprise me if Pat passes him in 10 years.

Brees has slightly better stats than Brady but he also has a shitload of INTs.

I've decided GOAT discussions are stupid. You can't isolate one QB as the GOAT when you have to take into account so many factors--the head coach, the surrounding talent, the divison they play in, the talent of the opposition, the way the league operated at the time. Take that last point: Montana played in an era with no salary cap where it was easy to keep the talent around him. On the other hand, he also played in an era when you could actually hit the QB. Marino was an amazing talent but he also played in a weak AFC East and only went to one SB and lost it. Brady has done ridiculously well with mediocre talent but he also has one of the GOAT HCs and played in an even weaker AFC East than Marino (at least Marino had the Kelly-led Bills to deal with). Bradshaw won 4 SBs in 6 years but never played extremely well and was surrounded by ridiculous talent. Unitas was a trendsetter, so how much credit does he get for that? Warren Moon, Otto Graham, Peyton Manning, you could go on and on.

I think we need to stop talking about singular GOAT and start talking about levels. All those guys I mentioned could be Knights of the Round Table compared to the others, but the question of who King Arthur is, well, it's always debatable. Unless Mahomes keep playing the way he is.