can we please stop talking about time of possession? Please?

[Buehler445]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

Fucking pussies like Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

[eDave]

We just got our asses kicked due to it dude. Again.

[rabblerouser]

Nope.

[comochiefsfan]

You don’t think the defense allowing 8 minute touchdown drives is a problem?

[notorious]

We should start calling it "Time of Regression".

[Flying High D]

Who would like to be a running back versus this D?

[ChiTown]

When the Defense can’t get off the field, that’s a fucking problem. It’s been like this for several years now, because our defense is a flaming AIDS ridden dumpster fire

[rabblerouser]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

Well, when we win, maybe we'll be able to talk about scores and stops. Until then, it's time of possession.

[chiefzilla1501]

In sick of people saying dumb shit like... We only gave up 19 points to the Colts. The sad thing is if not for the slow drives our defense would be giving up even more points. The best defense against our offense is to keep them off the field. And we're failing miserably.

[R8RFAN]

when you are that behind in TOP your defense is gassed, TOP is one of the most important stats in the game, they are gassing your D and keeping your most important asset off the field.

[Buehler445]

We just got our asses kicked due to it dude. Again.

You’re wrong. We didn’t get stops. Not being able to get stops can contribute to a lopsided time of possession. But the driving factor is a shit defense that can’t get stops. Has nothing to do with the time.

You don’t think the defense allowing 8 minute touchdown drives is a problem?

Would you rather they scored in one fucking play? Then we could win your buttfucking time of possession.

The problem is the score. Not the time it takes to do it.

[jspchief]

So you use the most extreme outlier examples to argue against some of the most conventional football wisdom out there?

That's a no from me, dawg.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[siberian khatru]

Going back to back three-and-out on offense with the game in the balance doesn’t help TOP either.

[notorious]

You’re wrong. We didn’t get stops. Not being able to get stops can contribute to a lopsided time of possession. But the driving factor is a shit defense that can’t get stops. Has nothing to do with the time.



Would you rather they scored in one ****ing play? Then we could win your butt****ing time of possession.

The problem is the score. Not the time it takes to do it.

I would prefer one play scores. It taxes a man to watch our defense get prison raped one slow inch of penetration after another.

[WhiteWhale]

In the past two weeks KC has called 82 passes and 19 rushes. 80% passing in games that have been within 1 score pretty much the entire time. Think about how stupid that is.

Anyone think MAYBE that's impacting time of possession? Also causing Mahomes to take more hits and throw more incompletions. It's all connected folks!

Get your shit together Andy. I don't care where you put it. Pack it in a bag. Put it in your hotel. Just get all of your shit in one place... together. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!

[jd1020]

He does have a point though, to an extent.

I would imagine that a lot of the people bitching about the Chiefs losing time of possession now were defending the Chiefs offense that won time of possession in the 2nd half of the Colts playoff game while simultaneously blowing one of the biggest leads in history.

I wouldn't care about time of possession if the offense fucking did something at the end of these last 2 games but they couldn't be bothered to get even 1 first down.

[TEX]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

No. You're just stupid if you dont think T.O.P. matters. Quit being a dooe whike trying to push some foolish hot take.

[-King-]

Is this a serious thread?

[WhiteWhale]

Is this a serious thread?

He's not wrong though. TOP is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not the problem itself.

The problem is an inefficient pass happy offense and no run defense.

One of those problems is easily fixable.

I can't make Spags a good DC.

[Buehler445]

Well, when we win, maybe we'll be able to talk about scores and stops. Until then, it's time of possession.

No. We lost because we couldn’t score efficiently enough to overcome our fuck of a defense that was horribly inefficient.

In sick of people saying dumb shit like... We only gave up 19 points to the Colts. The sad thing is if not for the slow drives our defense would be giving up even more points. The best defense against our offense is to keep them off the field. And we're failing miserably.

Still about efficiency not time. If they were getting stops we win. They didn’t. We didn’t.

when you are that behind in TOP your defense is gassed, TOP is one of the most important stats in the game, they are gassing your D and keeping your most important asset off the field.
Effects not causes.

Pussies talk about shit that doesn’t matter like time of possession.

A lopsided TOP can possibly mean you can’t get stops. But in our case why not say it? We can’t stop anybody.

[lewdog]

It shows we don't have a run game, which we do need to win games.

I am not sure why Shady isn't getting more running plays?

[Megatron96]

TOP does matter to a degree. Obviously if a team only possesses the ball for 5 minutes for an entire game (just using an extreme example) they probably aren't going to win any games. Just as possessing the ball for 55 minutes probably means that team won the game.

Based on what we're seeing, I'd guess that the minimum TOP for the Chiefs has to be somewhere areound 27 minutes at a minimum.

[WhiteWhale]

It shows we don't have a run game, which we do need to win games.

I am not sure why Shady isn't getting more running plays?

Because Andy's head is firmly placed up his own ass.

[Iconic]

top matters but imo a much better marker is # of possessions

10 possessions vs 10 possessions. texans simply handled their possessions better. we didn't. they won.

sure our run d is ass but we all knew that. the o is the strength and it's not exactly showing up.

[Buehler445]

So you use the most extreme outlier examples to argue against some of the most conventional football wisdom out there?

That's a no from me, dawg.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Going back to back three-and-out on offense with the game in the balance doesn’t help TOP either.

In the past two weeks KC has called 82 passes and 19 rushes. 80% passing in games that have been within 1 score pretty much the entire time. Think about how stupid that is.

Anyone thing MAYBE that's impacting time of possession? Also causing Mahomes to take more hits and throw more incompletions. It's all connected folks!

Get your shit together Andy. I don't care where you put it. Pack it in a bag. Put it in your hotel. Just get all of your shit in one place... together. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!

Still shit that pussies talk about when they’re either too dumb or too weak to talk about what is actually happening.

TOP doesn’t win games. Scores and stops do. And yeah. Our defense is shit and we can’t run the fucking ball because we’re a bunch of soft bitches. That’s the reality. Time of Posession doesn’t drive either one of those things.

Is this a serious thread?

Yes.

[-King-]

He's not wrong though. TOP is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not the problem itself.

The problem is an inefficient pass happy offense and no run defense.

One of those problems is easily fixable.

It's apart of the problem. A very big part. It forces us to need a touchdown almost every drive because possessions are rarer.

Of course at the end of the day, points are all that matters but the difference in TOP limits how many points we can score and adds to the chances they have to score. The longer a team has the ball,the more likely it is they'll score and the less time we have to answer.

[-King-]

Still shit that pussies talk about when they’re either too dumb or too weak to talk about what is actually happening.

TOP doesn’t win games. Scores and stops do. And yeah. Our defense is shit and we can’t run the fucking ball because we’re a bunch of soft bitches. That’s the reality. Time of Posession doesn’t drive either one of those things.



Yes.

The longer a team has the ball the more likely they are to score. The less a team has the ball, the less chances they have to score.

It's a pretty simple concept.

[Buehler445]

It shows we don't have a run game, which we do need to win games.

I am not sure why Shady isn't getting more running plays?

Because we are coached by flaming morons.

And I’d disagree we need a running game necessarily, we just need to score more efficiently with the pass. But it’s easier to build a run game than improve our already good pass game. So that’s where I’d go.

TOP does matter to a degree. Obviously if a team only possesses the ball for 5 minutes for an entire game (just using an extreme example) they probably aren't going to win any games. Just as possessing the ball for 55 minutes probably means that team won the game.

Based on what we're seeing, I'd guess that the minimum TOP for the Chiefs has to be somewhere areound 27 minutes at a minimum.

You’re wrong. A team that returns every kickoff or punt for a TD is winning.

We need fucking stops and scores. The TOP issue is an effect not a cause.

While there might be correlation to winning, there is not causation.

[RedRaider56]

Going back to back three-and-out on offense with the game in the balance doesn’t help TOP either.

Especially when your offense gets ONE possession series in the 4th quarter.

[comochiefsfan]

Would you rather they scored in one ****ing play?

Yes I would absolutely prefer they score in one play if they’re going to score. The quicker they score, the quicker our offense gets back on the field.

[Buehler445]

The longer a team has the ball the more likely they are to score. The less a team has the ball, the less chances they have to score.

It's a pretty simple concept.

Are you fucking dense?

It’s about stops and scores. TOP is an effect of that. Maybe. Sometimes.

You know who won TOP a lot? Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. Why don’t you go watch Arizona State.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

If one team has the ball two-thirds of the game, chances are prettty high that they’ll score more points.

[chiefzilla1501]

No. We lost because we couldn’t score efficiently enough to overcome our **** of a defense that was horribly inefficient.



Still about efficiency not time. If they were getting stops we win. They didn’t. We didn’t.


Effects not causes.

Pussies talk about shit that doesn’t matter like time of possession.

A lopsided TOP can possibly mean you can’t get stops. But in our case why not say it? We can’t stop anybody.

The defense not making stops is like a pin hitting a balloon. It takes our offense completely off rhythm. Id rather give up points quickly than take the ball out of mahomes hands. This isn't Alex Smith anymore where we are playing not to lose. Especially at home the defense failures is the biggest buzz kill to the crowd. I don't care about winning TOP. I care about our defense losing TOP repeatedly

[Buehler445]

If one team has the ball two-thirds of the game, chances are prettty high that they’ll score more points.

Correlation not causation.

Pussies talk about shit that doesn’t matter. What lost the game is failure to get stops and scores.

[hawkchief]

Seems like Beuhler doesn’t understand the game of football.

[lewdog]

Are you fucking dense?

It’s about stops and scores. TOP is an effect of that. Maybe. Sometimes.

You know who won TOP a lot? Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. Why don’t you go watch Arizona State.

They are winning many more games than years past down here.

Just saying.

[Buehler445]

The defense not making stops is like a pin hitting a balloon. It takes our offense completely off rhythm. Id rather give up points quickly than take the ball out of mahomes hands. This isn't Alex Smith anymore where we are playing not to lose. Especially at home the defense failures is the biggest buzz kill to the crowd. I don't care about winning TOP. I care about our defense losing TOP repeatedly

You said it here. You care about stops.

Stop focusing on TOP.

FFS dude we won a bunch of TOP games with Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards that we lost.

[lewdog]

I don't think anyone is saying you need to win TOP to be a good football team but you can't be on the lopsided end of it either.

Being consistently low on TOP means your offense is relying on big plays for scores and cannot produce sustaining drives. Teams only relying on big plays for scores end up on the losing end of many close games.

[Buehler445]

They are winning many more games than years past down here.

Just saying.
I know this. But that’s OK. If he’s down there being a fucking twat he’s not on TV or radio making me fucking crazy.

And guess what. If theyre winning its because of scores and stops not buttfucking Time of Posession.

[Chiefshrink]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

It's obvious you have never played the game or if you have it was must have not been past grade school. Not trying to :Poke: you here personally either BUT TOP is everything just like controlling the "boards" in basketball. It's about possession of the ball !! And the way you beat guys like Brady,Rogers,Manning,and the greats a la Mahomes is keeping them on the sideline pure and simple. And the way you do that is running the ball to burn the clock and scoring TDs the majority of the time so that it puts pressure on the opponents QB to be perfect in every possession which is almost impossible to do.

[Buehler445]

But I’d bet Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards is still talking about it like the sisterfucker he is.

[WhiteWhale]

Seems like Beuhler doesn’t understand the game of football.

He's right. TOP is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not THE problem.

Nobody wins games by holding the ball longer. IT's never been a thing. Points win games. Always have.

Drop back passing with no creativity at an 80% rate is not and never has been a path to success in the NFL. It's not the Big 12.

[kcclone]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.


You should lose posting privileges for a week, for an incredibly stupid football take.

[-King-]

Are you fucking dense?

It’s about stops and scores. TOP is an effect of that. Maybe. Sometimes.

You know who won TOP a lot? Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. Why don’t you go watch Arizona State.

Are you really denying that having more TOP increases your chance of scoring and decreases the chances your opponent has of scoring?

[Buehler445]

It's obvious you have never played the game or if you have it was must have not been past grade school. Not trying to :Poke: you here personally either BUT TOP is everything just like controlling the "boards" in basketball. It's about possession of the ball !! And the way you beat guys like Brady,Rogers,Manning,and the greats a la Mahomes is keeping them on the sideline pure and simple. And the way you do that is running the ball to burn the clock and scoring TDs the majority of the time so that it puts pressure on the opponents QB to be perfect in every possession which is almost impossible to do.

It’s obvious you’re too stupid to understand correlation vs causation.

If our coaches are going to turn this around they are going to have to quit fucking talk about time of possession and figure out how to get scores and stops.

[eDave]

You should lose posting privileges for a week, for an incredibly stupid football take.

FUCK YOU. hIS POINT IS VALID. TOP IS ON THE D.

[Chris Meck]

You said it here. You care about stops.

Stop focusing on TOP.

FFS dude we won a bunch of TOP games with Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards that we lost.

Do you not understand how the time of possession directly rates to your defensive performance?

Do you not get that it goes hand in hand with giving up nearly 200 yards on the ground and almost a 6 ypc average?

Do you not understand that being unable to stop the run means you can't effectively pass rush either? And so the opposition just marches down the field, eating clock and punching it into the end zone while Patrick and company sit helplessly on the sidelines?

IF this offense is totally healthy and humming, yeah, they can score fast. They're not, and they can't run the ball because their line is shit. Time of possession is a key indicator of just how shitty the defense is playing right now.

[WhiteWhale]

It's obvious you have never played the game or if you have it was must have not been past grade school. Not trying to :Poke: you here personally either BUT TOP is everything just like controlling the "boards" in basketball. It's about possession of the ball !! And the way you beat guys like Brady,Rogers,Manning,and the greats a la Mahomes is keeping them on the sideline pure and simple. And the way you do that is running the ball to burn the clock and scoring TDs the majority of the time so that it puts pressure on the opponents QB to be perfect in every possession which is almost impossible to do.

No, TOP is TOP in basketball AND football. Has nothing to do with rebounding.

The best team is not always the team that 'holds the ball more'.

KC is getting cleaned out on TOP because they can't stop the run and absolutely refuse to run the ball themselves no matter if it's working or not.

Fix the ACTUAL issues and TOP cleans itself up.

[Buehler445]

Are you really denying that having more TOP increases your chance of scoring and decreases the chances your opponent has of scoring?

No.

I never made that assertion.

I acknowledge there is a (potentially poor) correlation between TOP and winning.

But that’s a correlation not causation.

The cause of winning is scores and stops.

Are you denying that the number of scores and stops you get drive wins?

[TripleThreat]

@OP

Time of possession means a lot more than you think. I understand your way of thinking, well if they scored in 8minutes who cares, when our offense is up, we need to score too wether it be 3 minutes or in 5 minutes etc.

The problem though is when their offense scores after an 8minute drive. We come out and score in 1minute, our defense goes out and they are on the field for another 7minute scoring drive. Half is over, we are down 14-7. Move onto the next half, we get the ball back, we go 3 and out. There team comes out, 4minute drive, no score, we get ball back and we score, 14-14. Our defense has been on the field for 18minutes of the game, theirs 5minutes. Now their offense scores at will because our defense is gassed, and our offense has to switch up because our defense can't get off the field.

TLDR our offense is better than theirs, but our offense is playing vs a refresed, read to go defense in the 4th quarter, where their offense is playing vs a gassed defense.

[-King-]

And also no, Herms teams didn't win TOP a lot. But you're drunk so whatever

[WhiteWhale]

Do you not understand how the time of possession directly rates to your defensive performance?

Do you not get that it goes hand in hand with giving up nearly 200 yards on the ground and almost a 6 ypc average?

Do you not understand that being unable to stop the run means you can't effectively pass rush either? And so the opposition just marches down the field, eating clock and punching it into the end zone while Patrick and company sit helplessly on the sidelines?

IF this offense is totally healthy and humming, yeah, they can score fast. They're not, and they can't run the ball because their line is shit. Time of possession is a key indicator of just how shitty the defense is playing right now.

KC averaged 6 yards per carry.

They ran the ball effectively, Andy CHOSE to pass 80% of the time in spite of that.

Stop making excuses for his contribution to this problem. The offensive playcalling is as big a part of this problem as anything.

Playcalling and defense are the disease. TOP is the fever. Fix it at the source. The TOP issues are a consequence of bad run defense and shitty play calling. Not one, but both.

[kcclone]

He's right. TOP is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not THE problem.

Nobody wins games by holding the ball longer. IT's never been a thing. Points win games. Always have.

Drop back passing with no creativity at an 80% rate is not and never has been a path to success in the NFL. It's not the Big 12.



This isn't a causation vs correlation debate. TOP is a short way to say, we suck on defense and can't run the ball.

Both of these things make it REALLY hard to win, and protect your franchise QB.

[Buehler445]

Do you not understand how the time of possession directly rates to your defensive performance?

Do you not get that it goes hand in hand with giving up nearly 200 yards on the ground and almost a 6 ypc average?

Do you not understand that being unable to stop the run means you can't effectively pass rush either? And so the opposition just marches down the field, eating clock and punching it into the end zone while Patrick and company sit helplessly on the sidelines?

IF this offense is totally healthy and humming, yeah, they can score fast. They're not, and they can't run the ball because their line is shit. Time of possession is a key indicator of just how shitty the defense is playing right now.

Those are all things that drive scoring and stops.

One more time

There is Correlation to winning and TOP but not Causation

[DaFace]

It's nuanced. Obviously you don't it to be completely lopsided, but acting like TOP is some magical stat is pretty silly.

Fun fact: the Chiefs were #26 in the league in TOP last year. There's right where we are this year (though that may not include today).

[BWillie]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

Amen brother.

[Buehler445]

And also no, Herms teams didn't win TOP a lot. But you're drunk so whatever

I’m not drunk. I’ve been on the tractor.

And he won TOP on a lot of those games where he ran LJ into the dirt. And we lost a lot of them because we couldn’t score. But by god we went on long drives.

[tk13]

I said it in another thread... the TOP in itself doesn't guarantee a win but it's definitely a sign. It's fairly obvious at this point that other teams want to dominate that statistic simply because it limits the number of drives in a game. It's no different than playing a slow down half court game in basketball against a high flying offense.

If you're going up against the best QB in the world you'd rather him have the ball as little as possible. It's not really rocket science. Mahomes and the offense only had 3 drives in the 2nd half of the game today. If I'm playing Mahomes that's exactly what I want. It limits his opportunities to do damage.

[kcclone]

**** YOU. hIS POINT IS VALID. TOP IS ON THE D.



Defense, both run and pass, but most notably run D. AND lack of an offensive running game. TOP equates to physicality in football.

Those things are HIGHLY correlated to losing in FB.

If you want to win, you need to at least straighten one of those things out (D or running the ball).

It's not rocket science. We're 6-5 in our last 11. Look at the TOP and lack of run game during that span. I'll guarantee you it doesn't look pretty.

The bottom line is that we're not physical and will keep losing to playoff caliber teams (just like most of last year).

[St. Patty's Fire]

In the past two weeks KC has called 82 passes and 19 rushes. 80% passing in games that have been within 1 score pretty much the entire time. Think about how stupid that is.

Anyone think MAYBE that's impacting time of possession? Also causing Mahomes to take more hits and throw more incompletions. It's all connected folks!

Get your shit together Andy. I don't care where you put it. Pack it in a bag. Put it in your hotel. Just get all of your shit in one place... together. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!

Makes me think of what Kelce said before the season. “We’re gonna pass the ball and when you think we’re gonna run it we’re gonna pass it again”

Andy Reid doesn’t understand situational football. All he cares about is dialing up cute passing plays. We’re throwing 80% of the time with a GIMPY MAHOMES AND OFFENSIVE LINE. HOW FUCKING STUPID ARE YOU ANDY ??!!!!!!!?? Like what the fuck man, I just don’t get it.

[Buehler445]

It's nuanced. Obviously you don't it to be completely lopsided, but acting like TOP is some magical stat is pretty silly.

Fun fact: the Chiefs were #26 in the league in TOP last year. There's right where we are this year (though that may not include today).

It’s just a mind numbingly stupid thing to talk about.

It’s like saying I have a savings account so I’m on my way to being rich.

When in reality it’s a function of revenue vs expenses.

[WhiteWhale]

It's nuanced. Obviously you don't it to be completely lopsided, but acting like TOP is some magical stat is pretty silly.

Fun fact: the Chiefs were #26 in the league in TOP last year. There's right where we are this year (though that may not include today).

Exactly. TOP is IRRELEVANT if you're scoring fast.

IT's very relevant when the disparity is powered by lots of incomplete passes, 3 and outs, and a acompletely inept run defense.

Which is because it's a symptom. It's not a problem you address directly. It's a lot of other problems that are creating it.

[lewdog]

You rode a tractor for hours thinking about posting a thread on CP and this is what you come up with OP?!?!?!

Get the fuck back out there and try again!!!!!

[Buehler445]

Defense, both run and pass, but most notably run D. AND lack of an offensive running game. TOP equates to physicality in football.

Those things are HIGHLY correlated to losing in FB.

If you want to win, you need to at least straighten one of those things out (D or running the ball).

It's not rocket science. We're 6-5 in our last 11. Look at the TOP and lack of run game during that span. I'll guarantee you it doesn't look pretty.

The bottom line is that we're not physical and will keep losing to playoff caliber teams (just like most of last year).

Correlation not causation.

Pussies talk about shit that doesn’t lead to wins.

[DaFace]

I said it in another thread... the TOP in itself doesn't guarantee a win but it's definitely a sign. It's fairly obvious at this point that other teams want to dominate that statistic simply because it limits the number of drives in a game. It's no different than playing a slow down half court game in basketball against a high flying offense.

If you're going up against the best QB in the world you'd rather him have the ball as little as possible. It's not really rocket science. Mahomes and the offense only had 3 drives in the 2nd half of the game today. If I'm playing Mahomes that's exactly what I want.

Sure, but it really has more to do with success percentages on drives than TOP. If Mahomes throws an 80-yard TD on two of those drives instead of going 3 and out, we still win the game.

The only reason that TOP matters to me is that the defense gets gassed if it gets too out of whack.

[-King-]

I’m not drunk. I’ve been on the tractor.

And he won TOP on a lot of those games where he ran LJ into the dirt. And we lost a lot of them because we couldn’t score. But by god we went on long drives.
The chiefs highest rank in TOP was 15th in the league and they barely won TOP that season at 30:01 per game

[Buehler445]

You rode a tractor for hours thinking about posting a thread on CP and this is what you come up with OP?!?!?!

Get the fuck back out there and try again!!!!!

Eh not sure why I’m choosing this particular hill to die on but I listened to Reid’s presser and he said TOP is on him and I just lost my fucking head.

I understand there’s a big difference between what he says and what he means but I’m just sick of the TOP talk. It’s about scores and stops. We’re not doing either one well.

And if nothing else hopefully some mental midgets in here can lean about correlation and causation. Maybe I can cause some real thinking which will
Lead to introspection and can change lives. I’m changing lives here dude. :D

[lewdog]

Eh not sure why I’m choosing this particular hill to die on but I listened to Reid’s presser and he said TOP is on him and I just lost my fucking head.

I understand there’s a big difference between what he says and what he means but I’m just sick of the TOP talk. It’s about scores and stops. We’re not doing either one well.

And if nothing else hopefully some mental midgets in here can lean about correlation and causation. Maybe I can cause some real thinking which will
Lead to introspection and can change lives. I’m changing lives here dude. :D

I hope he means more run plays for Shady when talking about TOP.

I am so confused on our limited use of him in the running game. 5.5 YPC but only getting about 9 attempts a game.

[Buehler445]

The chiefs highest rank in TOP was 15th in the league and they barely won TOP that season at 30:01 per game

I could be wrong. And I’m not looking it up. I just remember games where he’d eat up 8 minute drives running LJ and not score. And losing. And it sucked.

Fuck Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

[Buehler445]

I hope he means more run plays for Shady when talking about TOP.

I am so confused on our limited use of him in the running game. 5.5 YPC but only getting about 9 attempts a game.

Don’t be confused. Understand Reid is a toolbox.

[tk13]

Sure, but it really has more to do with success percentages on drives than TOP. If Mahomes throws an 80-yard TD on two of those drives instead of going 3 and out, we still win the game.

The only reason that TOP matters to me is that the defense gets gassed if it gets too out of whack.

Of course there is truth to that, we could hit on all three drives and we win the game, but that requires absolute perfection on offense.

I really don't think it's some kind of prehistoric Herm Edwards philosophy. I think it makes perfect analytical sense to try and limit the number of times Mahomes can beat you with an 80 yard pass, because every second he's on the field it's a threat. It's not going to work every time, but holding him to 3 drives in a half increases your odds of doing what happened today, you stop him on 2 of 3 drives and you win the game.

If you hold a 3 point shooting contest against Steph Curry, you have a better shot if you're only both shooting 3 shots because of the small sample size and randomness. If it's a contest where you both have to shoot 15 three pointers, his extreme advantage in talent is going to be far more obvious.

[iDeaL]

TOP might not matter, but what does matter are the reasons why TOP is lopsided. And right now, those reasons are kicking the team's ass.

[WhiteWhale]

The chiefs highest rank in TOP was 15th in the league and they barely won TOP that season at 30:01 per game

Well, he's right in that Herm WAS obsessed with TOP and he played his offense with that goal in mind moreso than outscoring the opponents.

Herm wanted EVERY drive to be a 15 play 80 yard drive.

A lot of things go wrong in a 15 play drive. Drive killing Penalties and turnovers are more likely the more plays you run. Which is why big plays have a bigger causal effect on winning than TOP. KC had bad TOP last year, but they kept winning because BIG PLAYS!

Herm's offense was all running and 3 yard passes because he didn't WANT to score 'too fast'. Which resulted in a lot of stalled 6 and 7 play drives.

There's a balance between trying to throw deep every play and never throwing deep. I"m sure we can find it.

[Buehler445]

Of course there is truth to that, we could hit on all three drives and we win the game, but that requires absolute perfection on offense.

I really don't think it's some kind of prehistoric Herm Edwards philosophy. I think it makes perfect analytical sense to try and limit the number of times Mahomes can beat you with an 80 yard pass, because every second he's on the field it's a threat. It's not going to work every time, but holding him to 3 drives in a half increases your odds of doing what happened today, you stop him on 2 of 3 drives and you win the game.

Not me. If you can score a touchdown, score the goddamned touchdown. Giving up 80 yard plays in Lieu of scoring too fast will just get you a punt. In the NFL you score a touchdown every time they give you one.

And let’s be real here. Most of it is defense.

But again, while there might be correlation to winning, it’s certainly not causation so it is truly irrelevant to talk about it.

TOP might not matter, but what does matter are the reasons why TOP is lopsided. And right now, those reasons are kicking the team's ass.

Absolutely right. So we should stop talking about TOP and start talking about what is preventing score and stops.

[-King-]

I could be wrong. And I’m not looking it up. I just remember games where he’d eat up 8 minute drives running LJ and not score. And losing. And it sucked.

Fuck Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards.

Yeah you're wrong. Under herm we finished 18, 15, and 28th in TOP

[Buehler445]

Yeah you're wrong. Under herm we finished 18, 15, and 28th in TOP

I was talking about individual games dude. I’m pretty sure we won loposoded TOP while we lost
And no way in hell I’m looking that up. And even if Herm never ever won TOP, I’ll eat being wrong on that.


Still doesn’t change the fact there is merely correlation, not causation to winning. And if you talk about TOP, you’re being a fucking bitch like Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards and focusing on things that don’t actually lead to winning.

[WhiteWhale]

Yeah you're wrong. Under herm we finished 18, 15, and 28th in TOP

Which is exactly why playing offense with the GOAL of holding the ball is stupid.

That's what herm did, and it doesn't work. You just end up with a lot of 4th and shorts.

[lewdog]

2018 Regular Season TOP

1 Baltimore 32:05
2 New England 32:00
3 Chicago 31:49
4 Philadelphia 31:45
5 New Orleans 31:41
6 Detroit 31:23
7 Seattle 30:57
8 LA Rams 30:46
9 Carolina 30:43
10 Dallas 30:35
11 Pittsburgh 30:34
12 Oakland 30:30
13 Buffalo 30:29
14 LA Chargers 30:22
15 Jacksonville 30:13
16 Tampa Bay 30:12
17 Houston 30:10
18 San Francisco 29:38
19 Washington 29:37
20 Atlanta 29:35
21 Green Bay 29:35
22 Tennessee 29:23
23 Indianapolis 29:17
24 Minnesota 29:10
25 NY Jets 29:10
26 Kansas City 29:01
27 Denver 28:58
28 NY Giants 28:41
29 Cleveland 28:39
30 Miami 27:40
31 Cincinnati 27:26
32 Arizona 26:33

[BWillie]

2018 Regular Season TOP

1 Baltimore 32:05
2 New England 32:00
3 Chicago 31:49
4 Philadelphia 31:45
5 New Orleans 31:41
6 Detroit 31:23
7 Seattle 30:57
8 LA Rams 30:46
9 Carolina 30:43
10 Dallas 30:35
11 Pittsburgh 30:34
12 Oakland 30:30
13 Buffalo 30:29
14 LA Chargers 30:22
15 Jacksonville 30:13
16 Tampa Bay 30:12
17 Houston 30:10
18 San Francisco 29:38
19 Washington 29:37
20 Atlanta 29:35
21 Green Bay 29:35
22 Tennessee 29:23
23 Indianapolis 29:17
24 Minnesota 29:10
25 NY Jets 29:10
26 Kansas City 29:01
27 Denver 28:58
28 NY Giants 28:41
29 Cleveland 28:39
30 Miami 27:40
31 Cincinnati 27:26
32 Arizona 26:33

So what does that tell us? We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and we were 26th in TOP....

Yeah, lets try to score slower.

[Buehler445]

No. You're just stupid if you dont think T.O.P. matters. Quit being a dooe whike trying to push some foolish hot take.

Fuck off. I care about shit that affects winning. Scores and stops. If we pick up stops. And have fewer empty possessions TOP will Follow suit.

But to think that TOP drives winning is stupid.

There is correlation to winning not causation.

It’s not a fucking hot take. It’s hoping that people - and more importantly our staff - to focus on what actually wins goddamned games.

[Buehler445]

So what does that tell us? We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and we were 26th in TOP....

Yeah, lets try to score slower.

We must be more like Carolina.

[Buehler445]

More importantly let’s talk about seeing if we can get fewer home games because GODDAMN IT WE MUST TALK ABOUT SHOT THAT ONLY HAS CORRELATION TO WINNING.

[kcclone]

So what does that tell us? We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and we were 26th in TOP....

Yeah, lets try to score slower.


But we lose all the big games when it counts so scoring fast doesn’t usually work as well against playoff teams.


We’re 6-5 in our last 11. No one is saying score slower. To flip TOP we need to get stops defensively and have a run game that people have to respect.

[BWillie]

More importantly let’s talk about seeing if we can get fewer home games because GODDAMN IT WE MUST TALK ABOUT SHOT THAT ONLY HAS CORRELATION TO WINNING.

ROFLROFL

I love it.

[Setsuna]

when you are that behind in TOP your defense is gassed, TOP is one of the most important stats in the game, they are gassing your D and keeping your most important asset off the field.

Is that you Will Muschamp? ROFL He talked about TOP his entire tenure at Florida. So garbage.

[Buehler445]

But we lose all the big games when it counts so scoring fast doesn’t usually work as well against playoff teams.


We’re 6-5 in our last 11. No one is saying score slower. To flip TOP we need to get stops defensively and have a run game that people have to respect.

We lost the AFCCG because we couldn’t get a goddamned stop. Or even scoring one in the first.

TOP is a side effect of all that. But everyone’s got to talk about it. Score and get stops and TOP wil follow.

[-King-]

So what does that tell us? We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and we were 26th in TOP....

Yeah, lets try to score slower.

I mean scoring too fast literally lost us games last year. There are times where maintaining long drives is beneficial.

Also, TOP is also on the defense. If the defense makes stops, the more times the offense has the ball and the more opportunities to score.

[BWillie]

2018 Regular Season TOP

1 Baltimore 32:05
2 New England 32:00
3 Chicago 31:49
4 Philadelphia 31:45
5 New Orleans 31:41
6 Detroit 31:23
7 Seattle 30:57
8 LA Rams 30:46
9 Carolina 30:43
10 Dallas 30:35
11 Pittsburgh 30:34
12 Oakland 30:30
13 Buffalo 30:29
14 LA Chargers 30:22
15 Jacksonville 30:13
16 Tampa Bay 30:12
17 Houston 30:10
18 San Francisco 29:38
19 Washington 29:37
20 Atlanta 29:35
21 Green Bay 29:35
22 Tennessee 29:23
23 Indianapolis 29:17
24 Minnesota 29:10
25 NY Jets 29:10
26 Kansas City 29:01
27 Denver 28:58
28 NY Giants 28:41
29 Cleveland 28:39
30 Miami 27:40
31 Cincinnati 27:26
32 Arizona 26:33

How come Baltimore didn't win the Super Bowl last year or weren't better than us? We shouldn't had had a chance of their #1 TOP vs our #26.

[rabblerouser]

Seems like Beuhler doesn’t understand the game of football.

He does not.

[Buehler445]

I mean scoring too fast literally lost us games last year. There are times where maintaining long drives is beneficial.

Also, TOP is also on the defense. If the defense makes stops, the more times the offense has the ball and the more opportunities to score.

Are you seriously advocating foregoing points in favor of an unknown?

Are you actually Herm?

[ClevelandBronco]

Fuck TOP forever.

[Buehler445]

I mean there is a case to be made for a 4 minute offense but I still can’t turn down touchdowns.

[Buehler445]

Fuck TOP forever.

No. Fuck Donk Forever.

[R8RFAN]

somebody should go dig up the stats on all games last week and see who wins and who loses when a team has the ball 10 more mins than the other...

[ClevelandBronco]

No. Fuck Donk Forever.

I knew it was something like that.

[BWillie]

Are you seriously advocating foregoing points in favor of an unknown?

Are you actually Herm?

Herm down 3-10 at the end of the first half.

"We got 'em right where we want 'em! We're in this game!"

[-King-]

Are you seriously advocating foregoing points in favor of an unknown?

Are you actually Herm?

No, but in some situations, a drive that takes time off the clock that ends in a score is better than a short drive that ends in a score. Why do you act like you cant have both and there aren't situations that call for one or the other?

[BWillie]

No, but in some situations, a drive that takes time off the clock that ends in a score is better than a short drive that ends in a score. Why do you act like you cant have both and there aren't situations that call for one or the other?

You are right, but that situation only exists in 1-2 games a year and in the 4th quarter, at the end of the game. Which has very almost no correlation to time of possession.

[-King-]

Herm has been gone for a decade. It's so weird how much space he still has in your head.

[notorious]

https://i.imgflip.com/3d8bcg.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/3d8bcg)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

[Buehler445]

No, but in some situations, a drive that takes time off the clock that ends in a score is better than a short drive that ends in a score. Why do you act like you cant have both and there aren't situations that call for one or the other?

I’m not.

I don’t know how you got down this convoluted road.

I said TOP is only correlated to winning. The team needs to focus on what actually causes winning. Which is scores and stops.

You disagree and start talking about hypothetical situations in which we both score. Because... reasons?

Fact remains that TOP is correlated to winning. You disagreed but haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary.

[Buehler445]

somebody should go dig up the stats on all games last week and see who wins and who loses when a team has the ball 10 more mins than the other...

Correlation not causation.

I bet if you looked up which teams had more scores and stops than the other team they win - causation.

They may or may not win TOP - correlation.

[Chiefshrink]

If our coaches are going to turn this around they are going to have to quit ****ing talk about time of possession and figure out how to get scores and stops.

Ummmmm, you possess the ball in order to get more scores and stops.:p

No, TOP is TOP in basketball AND football. Has nothing to do with rebounding.

So when a team rebounds the ball they don't have possession of it ?:spock:


KC is getting cleaned out on TOP because they can't stop the run

Hey, we agree on one thing!!:thumb::p

and absolutely refuse to run the ball themselves no matter if it's working or not.

Reid knows he cannot run the ball at will(and why he abandons because defenses make their adjustments) and PM2 II is talented enough to get away with throwing 75-80% of the time assuming everyone is healthy and even when they are not Reid still throws cuz he knows he still has a chance with Pat.

Fix the ACTUAL issues and TOP cleans itself up.

Couldn't agree more.

The horrid defense is a given issue BUT until that gets fixed it is our offensive line that cannot pass block nor run block against good d-lines that is our next biggest issue

TOP is IRRELEVANT if you're scoring fast.

We are not scoring fast therefore TOP is very relevant.

IT's very relevant when the disparity is powered by lots of incomplete passes, 3 and outs, and a acompletely inept run defense.

Thank you!!:thumb:


It's not a problem you address directly. It's a lot of other problems that are creating it.

You address directly by getting better o-line play and a better run defense BUT this is not happening this year unfortunately IMHO.

I mean there is a case to be made for a 4 minute offense but I still can’t turn down touchdowns.

and who would ? Not me !! BUT we are not scoring fast so..........


The team needs to focus on what actually causes winning. Which is scores and stops.

Were not getting either in a timely fashion it seems. Therefore what do you do then? You try to possess the ball to get more opportunities, I think?:p

[Giant Octopodes]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

****ing pussies like Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

This is phenomenally short-sighted. Yes, drive efficiency matters. Getting a drive that results in a score in 1:20 is theoretically Much better than getting a field goal in 12:00. However, it ignores that this is a game which is played by humans, operating at the peak or near the peak of their effort level, who get tired.

If you think your defense sucks right when they get on the field, how do you think they'll look after they've been out there 40 minutes? Defenses getting "worn down" results in greater drive efficiency for the opposing team, whereas facing a well-rested defense that is fresh as a daisy when you're in the 4th quarter is sub-optimal for your own drive efficiency.

Ultimately, time of possession is about effective energy levels, and differences in time of possession can be mitigated by differences in conditioning level, or can exacerbate existing differences. The Falcons vs the Patriots in the Super Bowl started out hot, Way too hot, burned up all the energy of their young, super-fast team, and then lost because they got tired, and it resulted in notable differences in the level of play and execution. The Chiefs offense is already bad for the defense in that they're a quick-strike team that gets off the field quickly, whether or not they score. The Chiefs defense letting drives drag out relentlessly and letting themselves get worn down adds to that, and results in a second-half defense which let's just say leaves something to be desired, and fails to set up the offense for max success in the late stages of the game.

[Chiefshrink]

Are you seriously advocating foregoing points in favor of an unknown?

Are you actually Herm?

Herm down 3-10 at the end of the first half.

"We got 'em right where we want 'em! We're in this game!"

Herm didn't have PM2 either.:rolleyes:

[kcpasco]

Just tackle our wr’s. It isn’t PI.

[Halfcan]

In the past two weeks KC has called 82 passes and 19 rushes. 80% passing in games that have been within 1 score pretty much the entire time. Think about how stupid that is.

Anyone think MAYBE that's impacting time of possession? Also causing Mahomes to take more hits and throw more incompletions. It's all connected folks!

Get your shit together Andy. I don't care where you put it. Pack it in a bag. Put it in your hotel. Just get all of your shit in one place... together. GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER!

Andy is not a good coach-period. He can't control his team and keep them from having crucial and abundant penalties every game. He calls a shit game and then stands there like he is thinking about what he wants for dinner. :huh:

[chiefzilla1501]

Whether our offense grinds out a long drive or scores fast, our defense stays out on the field way too long. This has nothing to do with our offense scoring too quick. This is 100% about our defense being almost totally incompetent in getting off the field on any drive. Even our INTs typically come after a 10 play drive.

[Chiefshrink]

Andy is not a good coach-period. He can't control his team and keep them from having crucial and abundant penalties every game. He calls a shit game and then stands there like he is thinking about what he wants for dinner. :huh:

We have penalties because other good teams are exposing us on both sides of the ball(trench play) that we do not have enough talent especially in the trenches and on defense.

This is what happens. Penalties occur more often when a player is not talented enough to legitimately compete by the rules. Sure there are those players that get lazy and undisciplined BUT that is not the case with this team. We have great offensive ball skill players no doubt, BUT THAT's IT !!! IMHO.

[chiefzilla1501]

The defense TOP matters big time. It keeps our offense out of rhythm. It wears out our defense and keeps the opposing defense fresh. It is a complete drain on the home crowd. And it's a lot easier to get turnovers on a team desperate to pass the ball than it is trying to get a fumble from a team who plays dink and dunk football.

Its terrible and it's inexcusable. We don't have to win TOP. But our defense has to stop getting CLOBBERED in TOP.

[Halfcan]

We have penalties because other good teams are exposing us on both sides of the ball(trench play) that we do not have enough talent especially in the trenches and on defense.

This is what happens. Penalties occur more often when a player is not talented enough to legitimately compete by the rules. Sure there are those players that get lazy and undisciplined BUT that is not the case with this team. We have great offensive ball skill players no doubt, BUT THAT's IT !!! IMHO.

Andy's teams have been some of the most penalized teams in the NFL since he has been here. All he does is say the same shit every week- "we need to clean some stuff up." :doh!:

Andy does not know how to build a balanced team. Like Vermeil, he is incapable of building talent on the defensive side of the ball.

Special teams have been horrible too. Cost us 3 more points this week in a tight game.

[Chief Roundup]

Everyone is talking about time of possession. That is mind bogglingly stupid. Winning is about offensive and defensive efficiency. Scores and stops. It has nothing at all to do with time. If Mahomes scores in one play every possession that’s really efficient but won’t take up any time. Moreover if we take a 12 minute drive and fumble at the 2, that isn’t going to win any games but by god we’ll win the time of possession.

Fucking pussies like Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards talk about time of possession. Winners talk about scores and stops.

WOW man this is so contradictory that it is almost stupid.
If you can't see the correlation between stops equating to more TOP which would equal more scores then you sure don't understand the game as no team is ever going to be 100% efficient on offense. It is just ridiculously stupid to think Mahomes and this offense can and will score every time it touches the ball.

[Buehler445]

Ummmmm, you possess the ball in order to get more scores and stops.:p



So when a team rebounds the ball they don't have possession of it ?:spock:




Hey, we agree on one thing!!:thumb::p



Reid knows he cannot run the ball at will(and why he abandons because defenses make their adjustments) and PM2 II is talented enough to get away with throwing 75-80% of the time assuming everyone is healthy and even when they are not Reid still throws cuz he knows he still has a chance with Pat.



Couldn't agree more.

The horrid defense is a given issue BUT until that gets fixed it is our offensive line that cannot pass block nor run block against good d-lines that is our next biggest issue



We are not scoring fast therefore TOP is very relevant.



Thank you!!:thumb:




You address directly by getting better o-line play and a better run defense BUT this is not happening this year unfortunately IMHO.



and who would ? Not me !! BUT we are not scoring fast so..........



Were not getting either in a timely fashion it seems. Therefore what do you do then? You try to possess the ball to get more opportunities, I think?:p
Too dumb to understand the difference between correlation and causation. Noted.

[FloridaMan88]

It's surreal to think that after the 6:36 mark of the third quarter (when the Chiefs scored a TD to go up 24-23), they ran SIX(!) offensive plays for the rest of the game... two three and outs.

Meanwhile Houston ran 32 plays during that same time-frame.

[jerryaldini]

Didnt read the thread but yeah TOP might be the dumbest thing that the old school guys on nfl shows like Cowher and announcers obsess over. It's the equivalent of still talking batting average in baseball. That and the importance of establishing the running game lol. Fucking old school idiots need to retire to Florida.

[Buehler445]

This is phenomenally short-sighted. Yes, drive efficiency matters. Getting a drive that results in a score in 1:20 is theoretically Much better than getting a field goal in 12:00. However, it ignores that this is a game which is played by humans, operating at the peak or near the peak of their effort level, who get tired.

If you think your defense sucks right when they get on the field, how do you think they'll look after they've been out there 40 minutes? Defenses getting "worn down" results in greater drive efficiency for the opposing team, whereas facing a well-rested defense that is fresh as a daisy when you're in the 4th quarter is sub-optimal for your own drive efficiency.

Ultimately, time of possession is about effective energy levels, and differences in time of possession can be mitigated by differences in conditioning level, or can exacerbate existing differences. The Falcons vs the Patriots in the Super Bowl started out hot, Way too hot, burned up all the energy of their young, super-fast team, and then lost because they got tired, and it resulted in notable differences in the level of play and execution. The Chiefs offense is already bad for the defense in that they're a quick-strike team that gets off the field quickly, whether or not they score. The Chiefs defense letting drives drag out relentlessly and letting themselves get worn down adds to that, and results in a second-half defense which let's just say leaves something to be desired, and fails to set up the offense for max success in the late stages of the game.

OK. So I’m shortsighted because I suggest that we look at the actual production of the unit regardless of the circumstance. Then you go list off a bunch of situations that are essentially excuses for poor production.

I want to look at high level overviews of the game and you want to look at specific excuses.

One of those is short sighted but it’s not me, man.

Time of possession is a fine indicator as it does sometimes correlate to winning. But Reid sits there and says time of possession is on him. Hogshit. Figure out how to score points and get stops, whatever way you can. Fuck TOP

[Buehler445]

The defense TOP matters big time. It keeps our offense out of rhythm. It wears out our defense and keeps the opposing defense fresh. It is a complete drain on the home crowd. And it's a lot easier to get turnovers on a team desperate to pass the ball than it is trying to get a fumble from a team who plays dink and dunk football.

Its terrible and it's inexcusable. We don't have to win TOP. But our defense has to stop getting CLOBBERED in TOP.

Get stops and TOP will follow.

WOW man this is so contradictory that it is almost stupid.
If you can't see the correlation between stops equating to more TOP which would equal more scores then you sure don't understand the game as no team is ever going to be 100% efficient on offense. It is just ridiculously stupid to think Mahomes and this offense can and will score every time it touches the ball.

Motherfucker

THEY ARE CORRELATED. BUT TOP IS NOT CAUSAL TO WINNING.

Read that again.

For fucks motherfucking sake. There is a difference between correlation and causation.

We’re talking about getting wins. The team needs to strive towards affecting change to factors that are causal to winning. Stops and scores. Not time of fucking possession

Jesus dude.

[Buehler445]

Didnt read the thread but yeah TOP might be the dumbest thing that the old school guys on nfl shows like Cowher and announcers obsess over. It's the equivalent of still talking batting average in baseball. That and the importance of establishing the running game lol. Fucking old school idiots need to retire to Florida.

Careful. You’ll blow up some fools heads up in here.

[jerryaldini]

The longer a team has the ball the more likely they are to score. The less a team has the ball, the less chances they have to score.

It's a pretty simple concept.
Great example here. One team has a prolific downfield pass game. Another has a grind it out running game. Which wins TOP.? Which is the better strategy in the modern NFL?

[jerryaldini]

Careful. You’ll blow up some fools heads up in here.

Yeah appreciate your effort but not worth it. Apparently when infected with 90s Martyball and going to sports bars where fans talk about the importance of establishing the running game and smash mouth football, you never quite recover. Especially when the networks are still dominated by 80s-90s pontificators.

[Buehler445]

@OP

Time of possession means a lot more than you think. I understand your way of thinking, well if they scored in 8minutes who cares, when our offense is up, we need to score too wether it be 3 minutes or in 5 minutes etc.

The problem though is when their offense scores after an 8minute drive. We come out and score in 1minute, our defense goes out and they are on the field for another 7minute scoring drive. Half is over, we are down 14-7. Move onto the next half, we get the ball back, we go 3 and out. There team comes out, 4minute drive, no score, we get ball back and we score, 14-14. Our defense has been on the field for 18minutes of the game, theirs 5minutes. Now their offense scores at will because our defense is gassed, and our offense has to switch up because our defense can't get off the field.

TLDR our offense is better than theirs, but our offense is playing vs a refresed, read to go defense in the 4th quarter, where their offense is playing vs a gassed defense.

It’s all about production. TOP is (sometimes) of the plays that actually affect winning

[Buehler445]

https://i.imgflip.com/3d8bcg.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/3d8bcg)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

Holy shit ROFL

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I think the problem actually goes back to punts because the Texans never did punt. Not one time.

[FloridaMan88]

It's the "Death by 1,000 Scratches" defense that we've seen from Spags' defense even going back to the preseason.

At this point I'd rather they give up a big play and let the team score in 2-3 plays rather than go on these continuous 10+ play drives.

At least it gets Mahomes back on the field quicker.

[chiefzilla1501]

Get stops and TOP will follow.



Mother****er

THEY ARE CORRELATED. BUT TOP IS NOT CAUSAL TO WINNING.

Read that again.

For ****s mother****ing sake. There is a difference between correlation and causation.

We’re talking about getting wins. The team needs to strive towards affecting change to factors that are causal to winning. Stops and scores. Not time of ****ing possession

Jesus dude.

I don't think we disagree. I could care less about offense TOP. I don't even care about defensive TOP. We need to give up less plays per drive. I'd rather give up a lot of points quickly.

[WhiteWhale]

Ummmmm, you possess the ball in order to get more scores and stops.:p



So when a team rebounds the ball they don't have possession of it ?:spock:




Hey, we agree on one thing!!:thumb::p



Reid knows he cannot run the ball at will(and why he abandons because defenses make their adjustments) and PM2 II is talented enough to get away with throwing 75-80% of the time assuming everyone is healthy and even when they are not Reid still throws cuz he knows he still has a chance with Pat.



Couldn't agree more.

The horrid defense is a given issue BUT until that gets fixed it is our offensive line that cannot pass block nor run block against good d-lines that is our next biggest issue



We are not scoring fast therefore TOP is very relevant.



Thank you!!:thumb:




You address directly by getting better o-line play and a better run defense BUT this is not happening this year unfortunately IMHO.



and who would ? Not me !! BUT we are not scoring fast so..........



Were not getting either in a timely fashion it seems. Therefore what do you do then? You try to possess the ball to get more opportunities, I think?:p

Rebounding is more like special teams. Time of possession is time of possession. That's a stat in basketball too stupid. Same rules apply. TOP between sports is apples and apples, but you instead brought a watermelon and are like 'DERRR, SAME THING AMIRITE?" No. You are wrong. TOP is TOP. It's a stat that reflects things, not a CAUSAL stat as the OP has tried to explain to you dense stubborn clowns.

If a basketball team is allowing the other team to shoot 60% from the field while shooting 34%, they'll probably lose the rebounding battle. Guess what? Rebounding isn't the primary issue here. Ineffecient offense and bad defense is.

CAn you think of how that might correlate to KC's issues? Maybe in a small way?

I seriously have no idea why so many of you are baffled by this point. It's velcro. Just strap it together.

[Red Dawg]

As long as Andy doesn't care about the defense we will be screwed. His game plan never involves helping his shit defense at all.

[Buehler445]

I don't think we disagree. I could care less about offense TOP. I don't even care about defensive TOP. We need to give up less plays per drive. I'd rather give up a lot of points quickly.

The only point I’m trying to make is that TOP is a horseshit metric for determining success.

That’s it.

[scho63]

If you can run the ball and chew up the clock all game, you wear down the defense and at the end of the game, they have nothing ;left when it counts. (Just ask the Chiefs)

[Buehler445]

If you can run the ball and chew up the clock all game, you wear down the defense and at the end of the game, they have nothing ;left when it counts. (Just ask the Chiefs)

Ok. But that has nothing to do with the fact that TOP is not actually causal to winning.

[Giant Octopodes]

OK. So I’m shortsighted because I suggest that we look at the actual production of the unit regardless of the circumstance. Then you go list off a bunch of situations that are essentially excuses for poor production.

I want to look at high level overviews of the game and you want to look at specific excuses.

One of those is short sighted but it’s not me, man.

Time of possession is a fine indicator as it does sometimes correlate to winning. But Reid sits there and says time of possession is on him. Hogshit. Figure out how to score points and get stops, whatever way you can. **** TOP


Yes, that is correct. Looking at just raw production, and ignoring the circumstances which led to that production, is short-sighted. And you say excuses, I say reasons, but let's not argue over semantics. I am indeed arguing you should look at specific reasons why you might have poor production, instead of just looking at high level overviews. I think it is more productive and more likely to result in success, especially as there is indeed a correlation, likely for the reasons I previously elaborated upon.

Again I'm not saying getting points is a bad thing. At all. I'm simply saying that historically, demonstrably, defenses perform better when they have to defend for 20 minutes than when they have to defend for 40. Part of that is on the defense, in getting stops and getting off the field, while part of that is on the offense, in keeping extended drives alive. Both are the responsibility of the head coach, which is probably why Reid said what he said.

You indicated they need to get points and get stops. I'd argue that points weren't the issue there. I'd argue that 24 points is good enough to beat the majority of teams in the NFL, and it was giving up 31 points which ultimately led to the defeat. If you want fewer points scored, you need greater defensive drive efficiency. If you want greater defensive drive efficiency, they need to be less tired, so you need to increase offensive time of possession, however you can.

That might not have anything to do with getting points offensively, and might have more to do with incorporating more run plays and short yardage plays to make the same scoring drive take 5 minutes instead of 2. The Chiefs had only 2 drives of greater than 4 minutes, and only 1 which was 10 plays or more. They averaged 4.9 plays per drive, and averaged almost exactly 2 minutes per drive. The Texans had 7 drives of 4 minutes or greater, and 6 drives of 10 or more plays. This is indeed an issue which contributed (though of course it was not the sole cause) to the Texans winning. To say it's a garbage stat which should be ignored is indeed as previously stated short sighted.

[crazycoffey]

Time of possession is entirely a variable stat, I agree.

However; Time of possession also is historically a favorable variable.

Like turnovers. “You can’t turn it over and expect to win”. There is a validity to both of those variables.

Scoring fast and sitting on the sideline, has never been a recipe for success. Being able to score fast is a luxury. And can bring you back from an almost certain loss, but it has never been the ideal. Controlling the clock has. And the chiefs don’t do that.....

[Buehler445]

Any of you dumb cunts want to continue this argument now?

Chiefs owned TOP 37:51 to 22.09.

It's about scores and stops, motherfuckers.

[kcclone]

Any of you dumb ****s want to continue this argument now?

Chiefs owned TOP 37:51 to 22.09.

It's about scores and stops, mother****ers.


Only people who have never played football think TOP doesn't matter. Ask any coach in the sport.

It's not the number in and of itself that matters. But losing TOP consistently, means you don't control the tempo of the game. It indicates you can't run the ball or stop the other team.

Period

*We also dominated TOP against the Vikings and beat them with our 3rd string QB so you conveniently left that out.

[lcarus]

Any of you dumb cunts want to continue this argument now?

Chiefs owned TOP 37:51 to 22.09.

It's about scores and stops, motherfuckers.

The fact that we won TOP so badly is why it's so surprising we lost that game. We had no business losing that game. The fumble that gave them a TD was the difference in the game. Without that they have no shot.

[Buehler445]

Only people who have never played football think TOP doesn't matter. Ask any coach in the sport.

It's not the number in and of itself that matters. But losing TOP consistently, means you don't control the tempo of the game. It indicates you can't run the ball or stop the other team.

Period

*We also dominated TOP against the Vikings and beat them with our 3rd string QB so you conveniently left that out.

Then why the fuck did we lose, stupid?

Again, it's correlated to winning, but not causal. We won TOP and lost the game. TOP does not equate to winning.

You don't win games because you win TOP, you win because of scores and stops. Those things can also win you TOP, but not necessarily. Scores and stops win games, not TOP.

The fact that we won TOP so badly is why it's so surprising we lost that game. We had no business losing that game. The fumble that gave them a TD was the difference in the game. Without that they have no shot.


Again, it's correlated to winning, but just strictly winning TOP won't necessarily win you the game.

Again, correlation/causation. Scores and stops win games.

[kcclone]

Then why the **** did we lose, stupid?

Again, it's correlated to winning, but not causal. We won TOP and lost the game. TOP does not equate to winning.




Again, it's correlated to winning, but just strictly winning TOP won't necessarily win you the game.

Again, correlation/causation.



No one is saying that it's causal? Who is?

It's indicative of a lot of factors that determine whether you win or lose. Much of it has to do with style of play.

[Buehler445]

No one is saying it's causal? Who is?

It's indicative of a lot of factors that determine whether you win or lose. Much of it has to do with style of play.

A month ago everyone was after Houston kept the ball all goddamned game. Read the goddamned thread.

EDIT: In fact, Reid did. I had forgotten, but the reason I made the thread is Reid said in his presser, "TOP is on me" as if TOP is something that actually drives winning. Fucking insane. I get that coaches say WTF ever to shut reporters up and it means nothing, but come the fuck on.

[kcclone]

A month ago everyone was after Houston kept the ball all goddamned game. Read the goddamned thread.



I did. You're saying "Don't talk about it", which is totally different than "it's not causal".

Apparently we're on the same page, because it means a hell of a lot in football!

[Megatron96]

Chiefs scored on 8 out of 11 possessions.

Titans scored on 4 out of 10 possessions.

It's not just about stops and scores, either, obviously.

[Buehler445]

I did. You're saying "Don't talk about it", which is totally different than "it's not causal".

Apparently we're on the same page, because it means a hell of a lot in football!

Go back and read the board, there were a ton of goddamned threads about it. Fuck that. Get a goddamned stop, and TOP will take care of itself, but we shouldn't set out to win TOP. We should set out to score and get stops.

[Buehler445]

Chiefs scored on 8 out of 11 possessions.

Titans scored on 4 out of 10 possessions.

It's not just about stops and scores, either, obviously.

How did they only score 4 times and end up with 35 points?

[lcarus]

It's not the only factor in winning or losing. It's just a decent indicator. Typically the teams that win TOP get scores and get stops. The top 4 teams currently in average TOP per game are 1. San Francisco 2. Baltimore 3. New England 4. New Orleans. There are other factors too. Obviously turnovers is a big one. Scoring and stopping the other team from scoring is all that really matters in the end, yes

[kcclone]

Go back and read the board, there were a ton of goddamned threads about it. **** that. Get a goddamned stop, and TOP will take care of itself, but we shouldn't set out to win TOP. We should set out to score and get stops.

I did read the thread a couple weeks back. I literally do not remember one person who argued that it's causality which makes TOP important.

Here's another example since you don't seem very bright:

Turnover differential is highly correlated with W/L. But you can still win games were you're -2 TO's. And you can lose games where you're +1. That seems to be the basis of your argument and why you resurrected the thread.

That doesn't make turnover differential a meaningless stat.

[Megatron96]

How did they only score 4 times and end up with 35 points?

Uh, Damien fumbled? Scoop and score? Ring any bells?

[CatfishBob2]

Chiefs scored on 8 out of 11 possessions.

Titans scored on 4 out of 10 possessions.

It's not just about stops and scores, either, obviously.

This team never ceases to amaze in the games we lose. Smdh

[Buehler445]

It's not the only factor in winning or losing. It's just a decent indicator. Typically the teams that win TOP get scores and get stops. The top 4 teams currently in average TOP per game are 1. San Francisco 2. Baltimore 3. New England 4. New Orleans. There are other factors too. Obviously turnovers is a big one. Scoring and stopping the other team from scoring is all that really matters in the end, yes

Well no fucking shit, Sherlock. Accordingly, it is correlated to winning, not causal.

But motherfuckers around here were squealing like fucking pigs about losing TOP in the Houston game, so guess what, we won TOP against Tennessee and still lost.

All I'm saying it is that it's retarded to look at TOP and say TOP is why a team lost. Fuck that, it's about getting scrores and making stops. TOP is like completion percentage. Sure, the higher it is the better but it really doesn't truly affect winning.

For the billionth time, as it was against Houston, it's correlated. But correlation does not equal causation.

[Buehler445]

I did read the thread a couple weeks back. I literally do not remember one person who argued that it's causality which makes TOP important.

Here's another example since you don't seem very bright:

Turnover differential is highly correlated with W/L. But you can still win games were you're -2 TO's. And you can lose games where you're +1. That seems to be the basis of your argument and why you resurrected the thread.

That doesn't make turnover differential a meaningless stat.

There were people arguing it in this thread.

I didn't say it was fucking meaningless. I only said its correlated to winning, which it is, not causal to winning, which it's not, obviously, by yesterday's performance.

And I was the only one saying it.

And now you're going to sit here and tell me that:

1. It's correlated to winning
2. It's not causal to winning
3. I'm still wrong, somehow.

[kcclone]

1. SF
2. Baltimore
3. New England
4. New Orleans
5. Philly
6. Tampa Bay
7. Houston
8. Jacksonville
9. Indy
10. Green Bay
11. Seattle
12. Minnesota
13. Chargers
14. Buffalo
15. Oakland
16. Detroit
17. Cleveland
18. Atlanta
19. Dallas
20. Tennessee
21. Pitt
22. KC
23. Carolina
24. Denver
25. Giants
26. Rams
27. Cinci
28. Chicago
29. Jets
30. Miami
31. Arizona
32. Washington


You notice any trends in there dummy?

[Buehler445]

Uh, Damien fumbled? Scoop and score? Ring any bells?

That's a fucking score, dude.

What wins these games is scores and stops. They did it better than us even though we won TOP, yet after Houston everyone was screaming WE SCORE TOO FAST CANNOT LOSE TOP.

It was horseshit then and it's horseshit now.

Coaches need to focus on the plays that prevent us from getting stops and fuck up scores.

Not fucking time of possession.

[Buehler445]

1. SF
2. Baltimore
3. New England
4. New Orleans
5. Philly
6. Tampa Bay
7. Houston
8. Jacksonville
9. Indy
10. Green Bay
11. Seattle
12. Minnesota
13. Chargers
14. Buffalo
15. Oakland
16. Detroit
17. Cleveland
18. Atlanta
19. Dallas
20. Tennessee
21. Pitt
22. KC
23. Carolina
24. Denver
25. Giants
26. Rams
27. Cinci
28. Chicago
29. Jets
30. Miami
31. Arizona
32. Washington


You notice any trends in there dummy?

So you admitted that it's correlation, not causal.

Then post up the TOP standings, which shows, again, that it is correlated. Which literally nobody in this fucking thread is denying, especially me.

Then call me a dummy?

What the fuck are you even arguing here dude?

[BWillie]

Only people who have never played football think TOP doesn't matter. Ask any coach in the sport.

It's not the number in and of itself that matters. But losing TOP consistently, means you don't control the tempo of the game. It indicates you can't run the ball or stop the other team.

Period

*We also dominated TOP against the Vikings and beat them with our 3rd string QB so you conveniently left that out.

That is because when running was a more integral part of the game, it mattered more.

Time of possession is one of the most overrated statistics there is. We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and were 27th in time of possession. It's about efficiency. When you score quickly with big strikes, you won't have a ton of time of possession.

Are you saying scoring quickly & efficiently is bad?

[Buehler445]

That is because when running was a more integral part of the game, it mattered more.

Time of possession is one of the most overrated statistics there is. We had one of the best offenses of ALL TIME last year and were 27th in time of possession. It's about efficiency. When you score quickly with big strikes, you won't have a ton of time of possession.

Are you saying scoring quickly & efficiently is bad?

My point was TOP can be correlated to winning, but is not causal.

He says TOP is correlated to winning, but is not causal.

He also says I'm wrong.

[kcclone]

So you admitted that it's correlation, not causal.

Then post up the TOP standings, which shows, again, that it is correlated. Which literally nobody in this ****ing thread is denying, especially me.

Then call me a dummy?

What the **** are you even arguing here dude?


I guess that's my point. You resurrected an old thread, to argue that no one should discuss TOP.

Not sure why.

Also, I shouldn't call you dummy, but for the record you called me stupid first. ha (and you've starred out like 20 cuss words, so you're obviously bothered by this topic).

It sounds like you believe what I believe which is that TOP is important, and should be discussed because it's so highly correlated to W/L.....

If that's the case, it actually makes you pretty smart ;)

You should walk away from the board and try to relax. Just my $0.02

[Titty Meat]

This team needs to play more TOP the defense is awful

[Megatron96]

This team never ceases to amaze in the games we lose. Smdh

I haven't looked at all the numbers from last night's game, but the big stats all say we won that game. Scoring efficiency, yards, yards/drive, etc. blah blah blah, the Chiefs dominated the game.

But that's the thing about stats; they don't tell the whole story. They tell different discrete parts of the story.

So saying that TOP is a big factor in whether a team wins a game is never going to be 100% accurate. But neither is defensive stops and scores. If defensive stops and scores were really that big a deciding factor, Chip Kelly would still be a HC in the NFL.

Stats are like the compound eye of housefly. Each little lens is a window that sees its own tiny part of the world. TOP is one of those windows. So is defensive stops, another is scoring, and so on. But that's only three windows.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and that to get a more accurate picture statistically you're going to need at least a half a dozen more stat headings.

[MahiMike]

TOP = Turnovers.

I miss Marty's teams when we dominated the takeaways every single year cause they practiced it.

[Megatron96]

That's a ****ing score, dude.

What wins these games is scores and stops. They did it better than us even though we won TOP, yet after Houston everyone was screaming WE SCORE TOO FAST CANNOT LOSE TOP.

It was horseshit then and it's horseshit now.

Coaches need to focus on the plays that prevent us from getting stops and **** up scores.

Not ****ing time of possession.

A fumble return for 6 is not a possession. It's a turn over for points. TO/P are NEVER counted as a possession, not anywhere by anyone.

We scored on 8 possessions.

They scored on 4 possessions.

The Chiefs defense forced them to punt four times.

The Chiefs defense forced a fumble/turnover on the Titans first drive, and a turnover on downs on their second-to-last drive.

From that perspective, based on the idea that stops and scores are a deciding factor in winning games, the Chiefs won that game. But they didn't.

Because stops and scores don't tell the whole story.

So endeth the lesson.

[Buehler445]

I guess that's my point. You resurrected an old thread, to argue that no one should discuss TOP.

Not sure why.

Also, I shouldn't call you dummy, but for the record you called me stupid first. ha (and you've starred out like 20 cuss words, so you're obviously bothered by this topic).

It sounds like you believe what I believe which is that TOP is important, and should be discussed because it's so highly correlated to W/L.....

If that's the case, it actually makes you pretty smart ;)

You should walk away from the board and try to relax. Just my $0.02

I bumped this thread, because a whole thread full of fucking mouthbreathers jumped down my throat because I said Reid shouldn't be worried about TOP. Well, we won TOP by 7 fucking minutes, and wanted to point out that my original point of correlation not causation is clear here.

Then you jumped in, agreed with me, then said I was wrong.

As far as correlated but we should still discuss it, I don't give a flying fuck about TOP. I care that the defense can't get off the field, and when the offense sputters or turns it over, that's what I care about. If that leads to winning TOP, cool, I guess. I just want to fucking win. And running the ball like Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards isn't the direction I want to go.

Anyway, I'm glad we agree.

[lcarus]

Well no fucking shit, Sherlock. Accordingly, it is correlated to winning, not causal.

But motherfuckers around here were squealing like fucking pigs about losing TOP in the Houston game, so guess what, we won TOP against Tennessee and still lost.

All I'm saying it is that it's retarded to look at TOP and say TOP is why a team lost. Fuck that, it's about getting scrores and making stops. TOP is like completion percentage. Sure, the higher it is the better but it really doesn't truly affect winning.

For the billionth time, as it was against Houston, it's correlated. But correlation does not equal causation.

I'm agreeing with you. But I don't blame people for being upset at the Houston game when the defense couldn't get off the field to save their lives and it led to the offense only having 3 possessions in the 2nd half. It was the least TOP for a home team since the NFL began recording the stat. Obviously people are gonna bitch about it.

[Buehler445]

A fumble return for 6 is not a possession. It's a turn over for points. TO/P are NEVER counted as a possession, not anywhere by anyone.

We scored on 8 possessions.

They scored on 4 possessions.

The Chiefs defense forced them to punt four times.

The Chiefs defense forced a fumble/turnover on the Titans first drive, and a turnover on downs on their second-to-last drive.

From that perspective, based on the idea that stops and scores are a deciding factor in winning games, the Chiefs won that game. But they didn't.

Because stops and scores don't tell the whole story.

So endeth the lesson.

The definition of a possession is exactly why TOP is fucking retarded.

The fumble by Williams had a real impact on the game because it took away the potential for a score by us (essentially gave them a stop) AND they scored.

That is the shit Reid should be working on, not fucking Time of Possession.

Fuck stats, scores and stops.

That's the fucking story.

[Buehler445]

I'm agreeing with you. But I don't blame people for being upset at the Houston game when the defense couldn't get off the field to save their lives and it led to the offense only having 3 possessions in the 2nd half. It was the least TOP for a home team since the NFL began recording the stat. Obviously people are gonna bitch about it.

OK, if dudes want to fucking scream from the rooftops that the defense can't stop the run and it's a motherfucking problem, cool. I'll grab a bottle of water and join you on the rooftop.

But all these mongoloids blathering on about "BUT TIME OF POSSESSION - MY GOD MAN" are just fucking wrong. And 150 posts in dudes still don't get it.

[loochy]

TOP = Turnovers.

I miss Marty's teams when we dominated the takeaways every single year cause they practiced it.

Yes. TOP is generally a side effect of good football, such as long drives, defensive stops, and positive turnover ratio. TOP itself isn't what wins games.

[Buehler445]

Yes. TOP is generally a side effect of good football, such as long drives, defensive stops, and positive turnover ratio. TOP itself isn't what wins games.

Don’t say that too loud. Dudes will come unglued on you. And say things like you obviously never played football.

[Beef Supreme]

Why the fuck would you think starting a thread about time of possession is gonna stop people from talking about it?

[kcclone]

Why the **** would you think starting a thread about time of possession is gonna stop people from talking about it?


Yes. Then he proceeded to bump said thread three weeks later to tell people not to talk about it again.

He’s unglued and is arguing just to argue.

[Buehler445]

Why the fuck would you think starting a thread about time of possession is gonna stop people from talking about it?

Yes. Then he proceeded to bump said thread three weeks later to tell people not to talk about it again.

He’s unglued and is arguing just to argue.

Because that’s ALL motherfuckers, including our goddamned head coach were talking about after Houston. So I pointed out that focusing on TOP is dumb. Dudes freaked out and put me on blast.

Now there is a game where we won TOP by 7 minutes and lost. Now none of those dudes that had me on blast are to be found.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Yes. Then he proceeded to bump said thread three weeks later to tell people not to talk about it again.

He’s unglued and is arguing just to argue.

Try plowing a god damn corn field and see if you don't come unglued!!!!!

[BWillie]

This team needs to play more TOP the defense is awful

With such a great offense we should try to maximize the amount of possessions Mahomes sees every game. We should focus on a ball hawking forcing turnover type defense so that we can try to get the ball back as much as possible - sometimes at the expense of giving up big plays.

Think Marcus Peters style corners who look to get picks but aren't cover corners. Terrell Suggs & Von Miller types to swipe at the ball and force fumbles.

[scho63]

TOP is a MAJOR factor in games. You can't have a weak defense be on the field for 40 minutes of a 60 minute game and expect them to perform in crunch time in a close game. You're just wearing them down.

[lcarus]

With such a great offense we should try to maximize the amount of possessions Mahomes sees every game. We should focus on a ball hawking forcing turnover type defense so that we can try to get the ball back as much as possible - sometimes at the expense of giving up big plays.

Think Marcus Peters style corners who look to get picks but aren't cover corners. Terrell Suggs & Von Miller types to swipe at the ball and force fumbles.

I just wish we could stop the run. That's all. If we can stop the run, teams will be forced to pass and then it becomes our passing offense vs theirs. I like our chances at that point. It also stops the whole vagina Herm style offense of "we're gonna run the ball 3 yards at a time and try to get 10 minute scoring drives to limit your possessions because we know you're better than us".

[bevischief]

Well, when we win, maybe we'll be able to talk about scores and stops. Until then, it's time of possession.

This.

[loochy]

TOP is a MAJOR factor in games. You can't have a weak defense be on the field for 40 minutes of a 60 minute game and expect them to perform in crunch time in a close game. You're just wearing them down.

If they could get stops they wouldn't be on the field for 40 minutes.

[Titty Meat]

With such a great offense we should try to maximize the amount of possessions Mahomes sees every game. We should focus on a ball hawking forcing turnover type defense so that we can try to get the ball back as much as possible - sometimes at the expense of giving up big plays.

Think Marcus Peters style corners who look to get picks but aren't cover corners. Terrell Suggs & Von Miller types to swipe at the ball and force fumbles.

We try that and it doesnt work anymore.

[Megatron96]

With such a great offense we should try to maximize the amount of possessions Mahomes sees every game. We should focus on a ball hawking forcing turnover type defense so that we can try to get the ball back as much as possible - sometimes at the expense of giving up big plays.

Think Marcus Peters style corners who look to get picks but aren't cover corners. Terrell Suggs & Von Miller types to swipe at the ball and force fumbles.

Did that yesterday. Chiefs had 11 possessions, Titans 10. Chiefs scored on 8. Titans only 4.

Chiefs D forced a fumble/recovery on the Titans first possession. On their second-to-last possession the Chiefs D forced a turn-over on downs. Chiefs D forced four punts.

Chiefs offense didn't score enough TDs. Because Pat over-threw Kelce, Hill and Watkins.

Time for a new narrative.

[Titty Meat]

Did that yesterday. Chiefs had 11 possessions, Titans 10. Chiefs scored on 8. Titans only 4.

Chiefs D forced a fumble/recovery on the Titans first possession. On their second-to-last possession the Chiefs D forced a turn-over on downs. Chiefs D forced four punts.

Chiefs offense didn't score enough TDs. Because Pat over-threw Kelce, Hill and Watkins.

Time for a new narrative.

How many possessions in a row did we come away with points in the 2nd half? When you score 32 points you should win. Your problem isnt the offense.

[IUsedToBeATightEnd]

Yes, that is correct. Looking at just raw production, and ignoring the circumstances which led to that production, is short-sighted. And you say excuses, I say reasons, but let's not argue over semantics. I am indeed arguing you should look at specific reasons why you might have poor production, instead of just looking at high level overviews. I think it is more productive and more likely to result in success, especially as there is indeed a correlation, likely for the reasons I previously elaborated upon.

Again I'm not saying getting points is a bad thing. At all. I'm simply saying that historically, demonstrably, defenses perform better when they have to defend for 20 minutes than when they have to defend for 40. Part of that is on the defense, in getting stops and getting off the field, while part of that is on the offense, in keeping extended drives alive. Both are the responsibility of the head coach, which is probably why Reid said what he said.

You indicated they need to get points and get stops. I'd argue that points weren't the issue there. I'd argue that 24 points is good enough to beat the majority of teams in the NFL, and it was giving up 31 points which ultimately led to the defeat. If you want fewer points scored, you need greater defensive drive efficiency. If you want greater defensive drive efficiency, they need to be less tired, so you need to increase offensive time of possession, however you can.

That might not have anything to do with getting points offensively, and might have more to do with incorporating more run plays and short yardage plays to make the same scoring drive take 5 minutes instead of 2. The Chiefs had only 2 drives of greater than 4 minutes, and only 1 which was 10 plays or more. They averaged 4.9 plays per drive, and averaged almost exactly 2 minutes per drive. The Texans had 7 drives of 4 minutes or greater, and 6 drives of 10 or more plays. This is indeed an issue which contributed (though of course it was not the sole cause) to the Texans winning. To say it's a garbage stat which should be ignored is indeed as previously stated short sighted.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I agree with the Topic starter that TOP is irrelevant.
What really matters is being able to run the ball consistently, 3-4 yds gain per carry, on 10 minutes drives.
When we do that I'm sure no one will worry about TOP no longer LOL.

[Megatron96]

The definition of a possession is exactly why TOP is ****ing retarded.

The fumble by Williams had a real impact on the game because it took away the potential for a score by us (essentially gave them a stop) AND they scored.

That is the shit Reid should be working on, not ****ing Time of Possession.

**** stats, scores and stops.

That's the ****ing story.

So now you want to change the definition of possession? Just to suit your narrative? Even though your team can't "possess" the ball on defense? That only the OFFENSE can possess the ball?


Retarded idea.

[Buehler445]

So now you want to change the definition of possession? Just to suit your narrative? Even though your team can't "possess" the ball on defense? That only the OFFENSE can possess the ball?


Retarded idea.

I don't have a goddamned narrative. You are trying to make stats where there aren't any. All I care about is what wins games, and Time of Possession does not. I couldn't give a flying fuck if a fumble return for TD counts as a possession, because it sure as fuck counts on the scoreboard and therefor should be where are coaches are applying their focus.

See: Chiefs @ Titans 11/10/19

[Megatron96]

How many possessions in a row did we come away with points in the 2nd half? When you score 32 points you should win. Your problem isnt the offense.

Four.

TD, FG, TD, FG, botched snap for FG, blocked FG.

I'm not saying the offense is the problem. I'm also not saying the defense played great, because obviously, they didn't.

What I am saying is that if your going to micro-analyze the defense or blame them for every little thing, at least use the same lens for the offense. The offense wasn't perfect either. They failed to execute drives that should've resulted in TDs at least twice. If they converted just one of those for a TD we aren't having this conversation.

And the fact is that last year this offense scored more TDs than FGs most of the time. This year it's been different. There are plenty of reasons for this, but no one is going to admit most of that either because they're ignorant, or they want to be willingly obtuse so they can continue to support their narrative.

[Imon Yourside]

I really thought the nail in the coffin was the Hardman TD, and it would have been on about any other team. Titans had what 4 minutes left down 9? Still makes no sense to me that we lost that game.

[PAChiefsGuy]

I really thought the nail in the coffin was the Hardman TD, and it would have been on about any other team. Titans had what 4 minutes left down 9? Still makes no sense to me that we lost that game.

Yeah they really fucked that game up. Special teams and the D killed us.

Our special teams has been pretty bad this season at least by Toubs standards