Kelce cementing his HOF status

[RunKC]

Fastest TE in history to get 450 receptions and 6,000 yards. Needs 167 more to get 1,000 yards and become the first TE in history to get 1,000 receiving yards in 4 straight years.

[TLO]

Yip

[Munson]

He good.

[King_Chief_Fan]

The best clutch player on this team

[Flying High D]

Too bad others couldn’t of matured and honed their craft as He did.

[dlphg9]

If he hadnt started really playing when he was 25 there's a chance he could catch Tony G in alot of categories. Kelce is averaging 67 yards a game and Tony was at 56, so if he would have started playing at 21 yo like Tony was, then he wouldn't need to play until he was 37 to catch Tony and let's be real, Tony was productive even in his final season and never hurt. Not many people are able to do what he did as long he did.

Kelce seems like the kind of player that can stay productive well into his 30s.

[comochiefsfan]

Seen a lot of people dismiss him as a HOF candidate for whatever reason, when his stats match up favorably with some of the all time greats at his position.

If he played for the Giants or Cowboys he would be a first ballot HOFer. Since he plays in KC, he probably needs a super bowl and a few more great seasons to get in.

[nychief]

Too bad others couldn’t of matured and honed their craft as He did.

What in the fuck does this even mean?

[CasselGotPeedOn]

Too bad others couldn’t of matured and honed their craft as He did.

That's what you took away from this? Oh btw dipshit, it's not "couldn't of", its "couldn't have" you dumbass.

[Buehler445]

I wish you fools would quit talking like the 1000 yards is guranteed. I can see a team (like the Gruden led Faider cunts) headhunting him because he’s been Mahomes go-to.

[Buehler445]

Not that I’m superstitious or anything but come on.

[Flying High D]

That's what you took away from this? Oh btw dipshit, it's not "couldn't of", its "couldn't have" you dumbass.

You seem nice.

[Flying High D]

What in the fuck does this even mean?

Note to self, run all posts by you before posting.

[UK_Chief]

I heard he’s ‘a little off’ this year...

[MotherJefer]

Not that I’m superstitious or anything but come on.

Grow the f*ck up man.

[Rasputin]

That's what you took away from this? Oh btw dipshit, it's not "couldn't of", its "couldn't have" you dumbass.



I really miss milkman and anyone else saying dumbass doesn't have the same effect. Only milkman should be able use dumbass or it gets filtered with numbnuts.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Wasn't much of a Kelce fan in the beginning. Thought he was kind of a knucklehead, tbh. Over time, however, he's become quite possibly my favorite non-Mahomes Chief in the history of the franchise. Incredible talent, NFL Man of the Year nominee, hilarious, team first guy...hands down one of the best Chiefs ever. I know almost every Chiefs fan loves him as a player and a human, but I still don't know if we truly appreciate what this guy has brought to our favorite football team - THE KANSAS CITY CHIEFS!

Absolute 100% lock first ballot HOF-er. Gonna be a sad day in Chiefs history whenever he decides to call it a career.

[KChiefs1]

Travis Kelce

Needs 1,000 receiving yards to become the first tight end in NFL history with seven seasons of at least 1,000 receiving yards. Kelce has at least 1,000 receiving yards in each of the past six seasons, the most in NFL history for a tight end.

Needs 103 receptions to surpass Jason Witten (806) for the most receptions by a tight end in his first 10 seasons in NFL history.

Needs 994 receiving yards to become the fifth tight end in NFL history with at least 10,000 career receiving yards, joining Tony Gonzalez (15,127), Jason Witten (13,046), Antonio Gates (11,841) and Shannon Sharpe (10,060).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dante84]

15k yards from Tony G is absurd.

[BleedingRed]

15k yards from Tony G is absurd.

Yet Kelce is going to break it........

The best thing about Kelce is minus one major and minor injuries he has stayed on the field.

If he goes for 6 more years (Asking alot) he only need 1k yards a year. Considering this next year he might be back to 1,400.... Its in reach to become the GOAT at TE.

Undisputed GOAT that is. The difference is Tony didn't have alot extra miles in the playoffs on his legs.

[Garcia Bronco]

Travis Kelce

Needs 1,000 receiving yards to become the first tight end in NFL history with seven seasons of at least 1,000 receiving yards. Kelce has at least 1,000 receiving yards in each of the past six seasons, the most in NFL history for a tight end.

Needs 103 receptions to surpass Jason Witten (806) for the most receptions by a tight end in his first 10 seasons in NFL history.

Needs 994 receiving yards to become the fifth tight end in NFL history with at least 10,000 career receiving yards, joining Tony Gonzalez (15,127), Jason Witten (13,046), Antonio Gates (11,841) and Shannon Sharpe (10,060).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Clearly the AFC West is the Y Tightend Division on NFL football.

[MAHOMO 4 LIFE!]

Fun fact: Besides his rookie year Kelce has only missed 2 regular season games. Those were bother week 17 when division was locked up. Kelce would have to play until hes 40 to pass Tony G. It’s doable but at what point does he actually slow down because hes 33 and he just gets better with age

[ptlyon]

Thanks for jinxing him

[AdolfOliverBush]

Hardware beats longevity. Kelce is the best TE in Chiefs history, Gonzo can lick my balls.

[ChiTown]

Yet Kelce is going to break it........

The best thing about Kelce is minus one major and minor injuries he has stayed on the field.

If he goes for 6 more years (Asking a lot) he only need 1k yards a year. Considering this next year he might be back to 1,400.... Its in reach to become the GOAT at TE.

Undisputed GOAT that is. The difference is Tony didn't have a lot extra miles in the playoffs on his legs.

I think TK can be pretty elite for another 2-3 years. But after 35 years of age, and playing as many games as he has played.....that's asking for more than "a lot", IMO. I think it's probable that he could average between 1100-1200 yards/season over the next 2-3 years. After that? Injuries have a way of finding older bones when they've been heavily utilized over (what will be at age 35) a 12-year career.

Dude has been absolutely elite in the staying healthy department, so maybe he's a unicorn of sorts? I sure as hell hope so :)

[ThaVirus]

Hardware beats longevity. Kelce is the best TE in Chiefs history, Gonzo can lick my balls.

They're TEs. They don't have enough impact on a Super Bowl run to hold that against them.

[Shaid]

I don't know if he's hitting Tony's yard and I didn't think he'd be able to contend for GOAT because he was older when starting out but at this point, I think he's entered the conversation pretty convincingly. If he gets 2 more 1k seasons, I think it starts to get hard to argue that he's not the GOAT. Sustained dominance and already has done things no other TE has ever done.

[Mile High Mania]

I would imagine he's a lock for the HOF at this point... he could retire today and get the nod on his first attempt.

[AdolfOliverBush]

They're TEs. They don't have enough impact on a Super Bowl run to hold that against them.

Kelce certainly did. There's no way KC wins the Super Bowl without him.

[RealSNR]

Tony played 17 seasons, which is just jaw dropping to me. As a freakin TE.

And how many games did he miss? 2. That's it. As a TE.

That's bonkers. Kelce has definitely outproduced him thus far, but he already lost a year as a rookie due to his injury, not to mention that Tony left college as a true junior, and Kelce left as a redshirt senior. So in a way, he's kind of 3 years behind in terms of the amount of time he has to catch Tony by the time he hits Tony's age at retirement.

He's going to have have to play past that mark by a couple of seasons, and I'm not sure how that's going to go.

But hey... sports medicine these days, man.

[ThaVirus]

Kelce certainly did. There's no way KC wins the Super Bowl without him.

Agreed, but that's not my argument.

Simplest way to look at it..

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

2014: Missed playoffs entirely
2015: 128 yards and 0 TDs in win @ HOU followed by 23 yards and 0 TDs @ NE (loss)
2016: 77 yards and 0 TDs vs PIT (loss)
2017: 66 yards and 0 TDs vs TEN (loss)

I don't even need to show the stats after Mahomes. They're basically night and day.

Gonzalez was a victim of playing for a shitty team for many years. You swap them magically and the late 90s-late 00s Chiefs don't fare any better in the postseason while I'm not sure we don't still end up with a Super Bowl win in 2019.

[Rasputin]

He should be in the HOF just for his orchestration drive of 13 seconds. That's legendary. How well him and Pat were on the same page.

[TimeForWasp]

And he masterbated in the general direction of a ref.

[FlaChief58]

And he masterbated in the general direction of a ref.

HOF worthy in and of itself

[chiefzilla1501]

Agreed, but that's not my argument.

Simplest way to look at it..

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

2014: Missed playoffs entirely
2015: 128 yards and 0 TDs in win @ HOU followed by 23 yards and 0 TDs @ NE (loss)
2016: 77 yards and 0 TDs vs PIT (loss)
2017: 66 yards and 0 TDs vs TEN (loss)

I don't even need to show the stats after Mahomes. They're basically night and day.

Gonzalez was a victim of playing for a shitty team for many years. You swap them magically and the late 90s-late 00s Chiefs don't fare any better in the postseason while I'm not sure we don't still end up with a Super Bowl win in 2019.

Gonzalez had more talent than kelce. But I don’t know that Gonzalez had the leadership to match kelces playoff success. And kelces numbers above are very good disregarding the fact that we had a qb who was allergic to the end zone. Even if I think gonzo was a better player I’ll take kelce over gonzo every day of the week.

[ThaVirus]

Gonzalez had more talent than kelce. But I don’t know that Gonzalez had the leadership to match kelces playoff success. And kelces numbers above are very good disregarding the fact that we had a qb who was allergic to the end zone. Even if I think gonzo was a better player I’ll take kelce over gonzo every day of the week.

OK, so apparently I do need to show the stats before and after Mahomes lol..

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

Four games total. 294 yards and 1 TD. 1-3 record. One Wild Card Round win. Never made it past the Divisional Round.

Kelce in four seasons with Mahomes:

Eleven games total. 997 yards and 11 TDs. 8-3 record. One Super Bowl win. Never failed to advance to at least the AFC Championship game.

This isn't about some bullshit like leadership. It's about opportunity.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Is a world without Travis Kelce absolutely dominating the NFL really worth living in? :shrug:

Praying for the second coming happening before Kelce hangs 'em up, because I don't ever want to have to watch him give a retirement speech.

[irafreak]

Is a world without Travis Kelce absolutely dominating the NFL really worth living in? :shrug:

Praying for the second coming happening before Kelce hangs 'em up, because I don't ever want to have to watch him give a retirement speech.

I don't know, his hof speech should be pretty good.

[Hammock Parties]

only his way to another 1400 yard, 12 td season

[Abba-Dabba]

Is a world without Travis Kelce absolutely dominating the NFL really worth living in? :shrug:

Praying for the second coming happening before Kelce hangs 'em up, because I don't ever want to have to watch him give a retirement speech.

Right there with ya. 5 years later though we can celebrate him getting a gold jacket.

We can cry together in Canton.

[DJ's left nut]

only his way to another 1400 yard, 12 td season

Dude just keeps getting up.

What's every fat pitcher say? "You can't pull fat...."

Well...maybe that's why the ol' boy never gets his bell rung...

I love Kelce and I'm damn near as nervous when he gets hit as I am when Mahomes does. What's allowed him to keep these streaks alive is that the guy is just a tank out there. His durability is just incredible.

[Hammock Parties]

Dude just keeps getting up.

What's every fat pitcher say? "You can't pull fat...."

Well...maybe that's why the ol' boy never gets his bell rung...

I love Kelce and I'm damn near as nervous when he gets hit as I am when Mahomes does. What's allowed him to keep these streaks alive is that the guy is just a tank out there. His durability is just incredible.

mahomes put one on his BACK HIP last night on that key third down late in the game

HIS BACK FUCKING HIP

mahomes may not be the GOAT yet but Kelce is right there

[O.city]

Look at the games played to get to the numbers. It's wild how many more those guys played than Trav.

[ChiTown]

mahomes put one on his BACK HIP last night on that key third down late in the game

HIS BACK ****ING HIP

mahomes may not be the GOAT yet but Kelce is right there

That catch was insane for anyone, let alone a 6'5 250 pound dude.

[chiefzilla1501]

OK, so apparently I do need to show the stats before and after Mahomes lol..

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

Four games total. 294 yards and 1 TD. 1-3 record. One Wild Card Round win. Never made it past the Divisional Round.

Kelce in four seasons with Mahomes:

Eleven games total. 997 yards and 11 TDs. 8-3 record. One Super Bowl win. Never failed to advance to at least the AFC Championship game.

This isn't about some bullshit like leadership. It's about opportunity.

Kelce was a beast without mahomes and with him. Even with Alex smith we’d be having the same damn conversation.

Sorry, but I 100% disagree on intangibles. Leadership is the difference between mahomes pumping his team up and grinding out tough wins vs Lamar sulking when adversity hits. It absolutely is what separates him from Gonzalez who was a more gifted player than kelce on a number of levels. I don’t know that there has ever in chiefs history been a better example of a player who plays every damn snap the right way than kelce. He does it with ability, intelligence and max effort. And I don’t know that there’s ever been a player who wants to win more then kelce, and that’s putting him up against mahomes who is insanely competitive.

In the end, that’s why kelce - a guy who isn’t as physically gifted as some of the all time great TEs including in his own teams history - still belongs in the conversation of all time greatest.

[O.city]

Kelce isn't as physically gifted as some of the all time great TE's?

Did you really just type that?

[DJ's left nut]

Kelce isn't as physically gifted as some of the all time great TE's?

Did you really just type that?

Yeah - we've talked about this before, but Kelce's size makes him look so much less athletic than he is.

That dude is just a massive man and he takes those looooong strides. So he eats up space with every stride and doesn't look lightning fast. And it makes his agility seem less impressive (or explicable) than it is because his build just makes him seem more normally sized than he is.

That guy is enormous and to be able to do the things he does at that size is just incredible. He's faster than you realize (well, he was - he's a little slower these day). He's impossibly agile for a person that size. His body control is damn near without peer. He's a truly incredible athlete.

[chiefzilla1501]

Kelce isn't as physically gifted as some of the all time great TE's?

Did you really just type that?

I believe he is every bit as good if not better than the all time greats. Overall.

He is physically gifted but we’re talking about the best of the best of the best. We are talking guys like Gonzalez who was unguardable. Gronk who was impossible to tackle. Gates who had elite ball skills. Or witten who was an elite blocker.

What makes kelce an all time great is how he plays the game. Matched with being terrific on every level. Of all the TEs in history there are few I’d want more on my team and in the locker room than kelce.

[O.city]

An elite blocker. Ok.

You've talked yourself off the rails. Just log out.

[DJ's left nut]

I believe he is every bit as good if not better than the all time greats. Overall.

He is physically gifted but we’re talking about the best of the best of the best. We are talking guys like Gonzalez who was unguardable. Gronk who was impossible to tackle. Gates who had elite ball skills. Or witten who was an elite blocker.

What makes kelce an all time great is how he plays the game. Matched with being terrific on every level. Of all the TEs in history there are few I’d want more on my team and in the locker room than kelce.

Athletically what did Gonzalez, Gates or Witten bring to the table that Kelce doesn't? Sharpe?

This is nutty. "Elite ball skills" - jesus, you see Kelce turn and catch a back hip ball as he was going to the ground? "Unguardable" - have you SEEN the things that Kelce has done to some of the best Cornerbacks in the game? I mean he put Ward on his ASS on a simple dig route last year.

What in the what? Did he have Gronk's bulk? Of course not - but he's no easier to tackle because you can't square the guy up.

This is...an odd argument. I don't get anything at all you're trying to say here.

[ModSocks]

Athletically what did Gonzalez, Gates or Witten bring to the table that Kelce doesn't? Sharpe?

This is nutty. "Elite ball skills" - jesus, you see Kelce turn and catch a back hip ball as he was going to the ground? "Unguardable" - have you SEEN the things that Kelce has done to some of the best Cornerbacks in the game? I mean he put Ward on his ASS on a simple dig route last year.

What in the what? Did he have Gronk's bulk? Of course not - but he's no easier to tackle because you can't square the guy up.

This is...an odd argument. I don't get anything at all you're trying to say here.

Gates had amazing hands.

Gronk was just....big. Like trying guard Shaq in the paint.

But Kelce's fluidity, speed, route running, body control.....LONGEVITY....all elite.

Gonzalez never had the speed and quickness that Kelce has. And his hands were suspect at the start of his career. Witten was good, but i'd never rank him highly in terms of being some physically bad ass athlete. Gates got fucking fat in his last few seasons.

[staylor26]

Oh NOW I see what DJ was talking about in that other thread...

Good grief :facepalm:

[chiefzilla1501]

An elite blocker. Ok.

You've talked yourself off the rails. Just log out.

Among the best of the best, there are several receiving tight ends who were way better blockers than kelce. Gronk and witten were way better. As receivers it’s hard to argue against Gonzalez or gates. Even today mark Andrew’s and a healthy kittle is a way better blocker. The reason kelce gets overlooked is because it is hard to compare kelce to the all time greats by talking about ability.

I would still take kelce over any of these guys. So why is that? Sometimes it isn’t just pure ability that defines a player.

[Hammock Parties]

Yeah - we've talked about this before, but Kelce's size makes him look so much less athletic than he is.

That dude is just a massive man and he takes those looooong strides. So he eats up space with every stride and doesn't look lightning fast. And it makes his agility seem less impressive (or explicable) than it is because his build just makes him seem more normally sized than he is.

That guy is enormous and to be able to do the things he does at that size is just incredible. He's faster than you realize (well, he was - he's a little slower these day). He's impossibly agile for a person that size. His body control is damn near without peer. He's a truly incredible athlete.

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/nB67KamfRIzaiZts7G2zlA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTQyNw--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/CMJ3wDwwA5ld3CcDIwvEfQ--~B/aD0zNzczO3c9NTY1OTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/ap.org/14298a1ba1456f0e65809c7a7c261c50

[O.city]

Among the best of the best, there are several receiving tight ends who were way better blockers than kelce. Gronk and witten were way better. As receivers it’s hard to argue against Gonzalez or gates. Even today mark Andrew’s and a healthy kittle is a way better blocker. The reason kelce gets overlooked is because it is hard to compare kelce to the all time greats by talking about ability.

I would still take kelce over any of these guys. So why is that? Sometimes it isn’t just pure ability that defines a player.

The only person overlooking Kelce here....is you.

As a WR I'd take Gates. That's what you're saying here. Seriously saying that?

[BWillie]

Kelce is better than football than Mahomes is. Its just that Mahomes plays the most previous position in fewtbawl

[chiefzilla1501]

Athletically what did Gonzalez, Gates or Witten bring to the table that Kelce doesn't? Sharpe?

This is nutty. "Elite ball skills" - jesus, you see Kelce turn and catch a back hip ball as he was going to the ground? "Unguardable" - have you SEEN the things that Kelce has done to some of the best Cornerbacks in the game? I mean he put Ward on his ASS on a simple dig route last year.

What in the what? Did he have Gronk's bulk? Of course not - but he's no easier to tackle because you can't square the guy up.

This is...an odd argument. I don't get anything at all you're trying to say here.

I think people forget how unstoppable Gonzalez truly was. He was a physical freak. He was carrying offenses on his back where guys like huard and thigpen and cassel were constantly throwing him prayer balls.

None of this is to say kelce isn’t physically amazing. He is easily among the best of the best on ability alone. But sorry on physically ability alone if you step out of kc you’ll get plenty of understandable debate about if he is the most physically gifted of all time. And that’s why he is in my opinion criminally underrated when it comes to any GOAT discussion. I believe it is the combination of everything that in my mind puts him in the conversation for best of all time.

[jd1020]

I think people forget how unstoppable Gonzalez truly was.

Name the TE with the most 1000+ yard seasons in history that did it in consecutive seasons.

[kcpasco]

Tony was great but he was a bit of a douche. Kelce is the Goat.

[chiefzilla1501]

The only person overlooking Kelce here....is you.

As a WR I'd take Gates. That's what you're saying here. Seriously saying that?

Oversimplify much? Wow. In no way do I put gates in the same conversation.

I’d say gates in his prime was more physically gifted. But playing receiver involves more than that. Kelce always knows where to be, runs outstanding routes, maybe the smartest tight end as a receiver to play the game.

As a blocker, there are many who have a pretty fair point that whereas kelce is an elite receiver and a good blocker, you have a guy like gronk who was a great receiver and an elite blocker. Even today, you have people ranking andrews over kelce because he can both block and catch really really well. I would still take kelce over them and it’s not because of pure physical ability.

[jd1020]

Even today, you have people ranking andrews over kelce because he can both block and catch really really well.

Have you ever heard of the term "clickbait?"

[BWillie]

Tony was great but he was a bit of a douche. Kelce is the Goat.

Dude saved someones life at a restaurant by giving them the Heimlich. He can be as big of a douche as he wants if he csme to someones aide like that.

[chiefzilla1501]

Name the TE with the most 1000+ yard seasons in history that did it in consecutive seasons.

Do you think cooper kupp is the most physically gifted wr in the game today? Jesus how are people interpreting any of this that any of this makes kelce anything short of a dominant receiver? You seem to be stuck on this idea that any hint of homerism is a criticism.

Again, I’d take kelce every single day of the week over any tight end in history. That doesn’t mean he’s the most physically gifted player of all time.

[Otter]

Every game I watch I realize how much of a pillar Kelce is to this team. He is Patrick's foundation.

We're a luck fanbase right now. :rockon:

[kcpasco]

There are still people who would rank that can’t stay healthy Kittle over Kelce. They are doucebags.

[jd1020]

Do you think cooper kupp is the most physically gifted wr in the game today? Jesus how are people interpreting any of this that any of this makes kelce anything short of a dominant receiver? You seem to be stuck on this idea that any hint of homerism is a criticism.

Again, I’d take kelce every single day of the week over any tight end in history. That doesn’t mean he’s the most physically gifted player of all time.

Do you think Cooper Kupp has had even close to the sustained success of Travis Kelce?

This is what makes you stupid.

You sit here and talk about how physically gifted and unstoppable these other TEs are yet NONE of them have had the career success of Travis Kelce through this point in his career. He is easily on his way to being the best TE to ever put on pads and here you are talking about how all these other guys were just clearly more dominant. It's pure fucking ignorance.

[chiefzilla1501]

Have you ever heard of the term "clickbait?"

Mark Andrews is an elite blocker who is also plenty good as a receiver. Kelce is an elite receiver who is plenty good as a blocker. Again I’m taking kelce every day of the week but Andrews absolutely belongs in the conversation

That is always going to be a hard conversation point when you’re comparing him to a guy like gronk who was elite on both levels. Kelce is a better receiver but gronk is a hall of fame level blocker.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Every game I watch I realize how much of a pillar Kelce is to this team. He is Patrick's foundation.

We're a luck fanbase right now. :rockon:

100%

Must really suck for the Doom & Gloom Brigade who shit up every gameday thread, they're missing all the fun.

[chiefzilla1501]

Do you think Cooper Kupp has had even close to the sustained success of Travis Kelce?

This is what makes you stupid.

You sit here and talk about how physically gifted and unstoppable these other TEs are yet NONE of them have had the career success of Travis Kelce through this point in his career. He is easily on his way to being the best TE to ever put on pads and here you are talking about how all these other guys were just clearly more dominant. It's pure ****ing ignorance.

Fucking hell

I’ve said kelce is probably the GOAT.

Stop spinning this because I’m trying to look at this objectively. I said other guys were clearly more dominant? Go fuck yourself. I’ve said repeatedly I’d take kelce over any of these guys. But in terms of pure physical talent when comparing him to the best of the best of the best there are plenty who don’t wear rose covered glasses who know there is plenty of competition. Of course there is. We’re comparing him to the very best of all time.

[Otter]

100%

Must really suck for the Doom & Gloom Brigade who shit up every gameday thread, they're missing all the fun.

If you're doom and gloom at this point you haven't been around long enough.

[jd1020]

Fucking hell

I’ve said kelce is probably the GOAT.

Stop spinning this because I’m trying to look at this objectively. I said other guys were clearly more dominant? Go fuck yourself. I’ve said repeatedly I’d take kelce over any of these guys. But in terms of pure physical talent when comparing him to the best of the best of the best there are plenty who don’t wear rose covered glasses who know there is plenty of competition. Of course there is. We’re comparing him to the very best of all time.

The only reason there is competition is because Kelce doesnt have the years accumulated yet. He is the best TE to ever suit up without question. The only question is will he remain healthy to play enough years to completely shit all over the career numbers of a Tony Gonzalez.

On Kelce's current pace, if you gave him Gonzalez's 270 games played Kelce would beat him by 12 TDs and 4,000 yards. It's not even fucking close.

[chiefzilla1501]

100%

Must really suck for the Doom & Gloom Brigade who shit up every gameday thread, they're missing all the fun.

I don’t think there’s nearly as wild of swings as there used to be where people went from believing our players were infallible to thinking they are terrible. Led to fans and even the players getting cocky to where we felt we were going to win every game in blowouts for 10 years. Last season brought us down to earth. I think we’ve learned to recognize we have absurdly good talent but that it’s ok to be critical every now and then. even the best are not perfect.

I feel like fans are in a way better place about loving the hell out of this team while also staying grounded in reality.

[FloridaMan88]

Every time that Kelce reaches a statistical milestone, it’s worth noting he basically didn’t play his entire rookie season due to injury.

Crazy.

[htismaqe]

Every time that Kelce reaches a statistical milestone, it’s worth noting he basically didn’t play his entire rookie season due to injury.

Crazy.

Same for Mahomes.

Any time they throw up the stats by season, Herbert is always ahead of Mahomes and it bugs me because Mahomes has done it all in less GAMES but because he didn't start his first year and guys like Herbert did, they get credit for a "season" he doesn't.

[chiefzilla1501]

The only reason there is competition is because Kelce doesnt have the years accumulated yet. He is the best TE to ever suit up without question. The only question is will he remain healthy to play enough years to completely shit all over the career numbers of a Tony Gonzalez.

On Kelce's current pace, if you gave him Gonzalez's 270 games played Kelce would beat him by 12 TDs and 4,000 yards. It's not even ****ing close.

Again, when did I ever deny that kelce has a good chance of being the most productive tight end of all time? That doesn’t mean he’s more physically gifted as a receiver than Gonzalez. That doesn’t mean you can ignore that gronk was productive while also being an extraordinarily good blocker.

My point all along is that it isn’t physical talent alone. And that’s why with the eyeball test kelce is surprisingly underrated if anything. He does everything the right way. He has hall of fame level physical talent but he also has extraordinary football iq and has Tim Duncan like fundamental execution, in addition to being one of the hardest workers on the field on every damn snap. That is something I didn’t feel we had from Gonzalez. Hell, gronk does those things but I still feel kelces entire package is better.

What puts kelce in the conversation as one of the best of all time is physical talent. What puts him over the top is a lot of those underappreciated intangibles.

[jd1020]

Again, when did I ever deny that kelce has a good chance of being the most productive tight end of all time? That doesn’t mean he’s more physically gifted as a receiver than Gonzalez. That doesn’t mean you can ignore that gronk was productive while also being an extraordinarily good blocker.

No. It means I dont have to give one actual fuck if Gronk was an extraordinarily good blocker when I say Travis Kelce is the best TE the game has seen.

[chiefzilla1501]

No. It means I dont have to give one actual **** if Gronk was an extraordinarily good blocker when I say Travis Kelce is the best TE the game has seen.

Then you are a homer who isn’t taking the debate seriously

I have every reason to hate gronk and kelce is easily one of, if not my absolute, favorite chiefs of all time. But there isn’t a shadow of a doubt that gronk is in the conversation for GOAT at TE.

[ChiTown]

The Most impressive Gronk Stat to me: 92 TD's in 143 Games played. That's pretty incredible.

[ThaVirus]

The only reason there is competition is because Kelce doesnt have the years accumulated yet. He is the best TE to ever suit up without question.

lol.. Come on, dude. I love Kelce as much as the next guy but there is quite clearly some question.

[jd1020]

lol.. Come on, dude. I love Kelce as much as the next guy but there is quite clearly some question.

Like I said, the only question is longevity. Kelce has six 1,000+ yard seasons in a row and is on pace for 1,300 this year. The next best TE only has 4 in their career. If those other guys were so unstoppable then what the fuck is Kelce?

[tredadda]

Every game I watch I realize how much of a pillar Kelce is to this team. He is Patrick's foundation.

We're a luck fanbase right now. :rockon:

He was always more important to this offense than Hill. When Mahomes absolutely had to make a play he always defaults to Kelce.

[ThaVirus]

Like I said, the only question is longevity. Kelce has six 1,000+ yard seasons in a row and is on pace for 1,300 this year. The next best TE only has 4 in their career. If those other guys were so unstoppable then what the fuck is Kelce?

Oft-injured, playing with terrible QBs, or from an era in which TEs didn't consistently post 1,000 yard seasons.

[ThaVirus]

He was always more important to this offense than Hill. When Mahomes absolutely had to make a play he always defaults to Kelce.

I'd love to see the numbers because I always thought it was about 50/50.

I can remember many got-to-have-it moments in which Mahomes went to Hill.

[tredadda]

I'd love to see the numbers because I always thought it was about 50/50.

I can remember many got-to-have-it moments in which Mahomes went to Hill.

I imagine some stat head out there has those numbers. I would be interested as well because it looks like from the eye test it’s Kelce more often than not.

[Marcellus]

Mark Andrews is an elite blocker who is also plenty good as a receiver. Kelce is an elite receiver who is plenty good as a blocker. Again I’m taking kelce every day of the week but Andrews absolutely belongs in the conversation

That is always going to be a hard conversation point when you’re comparing him to a guy like gronk who was elite on both levels. Kelce is a better receiver but gronk is a hall of fame level blocker.

Andrews had 2 catches for 15 yards Sunday. He is really good generally but he aint Kelce.

[chiefzilla1501]

Andrews had 2 catches for 15 yards Sunday. He is really good generally but he aint Kelce.

Oh yeah, of course I understand that. Kelce is a potential GOAT while Andrews is a guy who just wants to be in the conversation for now. As a homer I would easily take kelce over Andrews. But understandably there are people who believe blocking plays a critical role when evaluating a tight end and that’s where an outsider will press any of us on why they prefer gronk. I obviously am a huge fan of kelce but gronk has every right to be considered the best too. Both exceptional and complete players in very different ways.

[Gary Cooper]

Dude saved someones life at a restaurant by giving them the Heimlich. He can be as big of a douche as he wants if he csme to someones aide like that.
Was it a hot girl by any chance?

In all seriousness, to answer someone's question, Gonzalez did two things better than Kelce.

One was running people over. Kelce is big but doesn't usually bulldoze anyone. Defenders bounced off Gonzalez constantly. He wanted to punish tacklers.

The other skill is catching the ball in traffic. Gonzalez had better hands, better leaping ability, and a superhuman will to take the ball away from others. There's countless highlights of him catching TDs with two or three defenders all over him. He was special.

[DJ's left nut]

I think people forget how unstoppable Gonzalez truly was. He was a physical freak. He was carrying offenses on his back where guys like huard and thigpen and cassel were constantly throwing him prayer balls.

None of this is to say kelce isn’t physically amazing. He is easily among the best of the best on ability alone. But sorry on physically ability alone if you step out of kc you’ll get plenty of understandable debate about if he is the most physically gifted of all time. And that’s why he is in my opinion criminally underrated when it comes to any GOAT discussion. I believe it is the combination of everything that in my mind puts him in the conversation for best of all time.

It's nuts to me that we're going to act like Kelce isn't an incredible contested catch guy. Moreover, what Kelce does in space is absolutely insane and yes, gets back to his innate athletic ability.

Gonzalez does NOT house that catch that Kelce made for the first score Sunday. That agility and immediate ability to get upfield at speed just doesn't happen. Oh sure, Tony probably makes the catch but he doesn't catch it, get upfield, eat up that much space and then hurdle the damn safety to get clean into the end zone.

Kelce is the evolutionary version of Tony G. He's the same guy...but better. Gonzalez was one of the very first of the new breed of TEs who could move in space, overpower smaller defenders and abuse LBers. But the LBers he was abusing were Marvcus Patton and not Devin White.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong here. Travis Kelce is very probably the most athletically gifted TE in history. He's physical, he's agile, he's fast, his hands are elite. He's fearless in traffic and smart in space.

There's literally not a single goddamn thing he doesn't do amazingly well. And he does it in part because he's a very smart football player but the league has been FULL of smart football players. He's not elite because he's smart - he's elite because he's smart AND among the most physically gifted players to ever play the position.

This is crazy. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here but it's not worth the trouble. If you're trying to build the guy up by making some bizarre underdog story out of the guy and claim he's a lunchpail player who gets more with less or something - you're just wrong. This guy has gifts unlike anything the position has ever seen. And yes, he puts them to their highest and best use, but that's why he's a damn HoFer and not some flash in the pan.

You take Kelce's physical tools and eliminate his football savvy and you probably get...i dunno - Jimmy Graham? Take his brains and eliminate his tools and you get...uh...Ben Coates?

In either event, trying to diminish the exceptional physical gifts Travis Kelce brings to the table to make him some sort of lunch pail grinder story is just asinine. There has never been a peak that approaches Travis Kelce. His top end strafes anyone that's ever done this before.

[chiefzilla1501]

It's nuts to me that we're going to act like Kelce isn't an incredible contested catch guy. Moreover, what Kelce does in space is absolutely insane and yes, gets back to his innate athletic ability.

Gonzalez does NOT house that catch that Kelce made for the first score Sunday. That agility and immediate ability to get upfield at speed just doesn't happen. Oh sure, Tony probably makes the catch but he doesn't catch it, get upfield, eat up that much space and then hurdle the damn safety to get clean into the end zone.

Kelce is the evolutionary version of Tony G. He's the same guy...but better. Gonzalez was one of the very first of the new breed of TEs who could move in space, overpower smaller defenders and abuse LBers. But the LBers he was abusing were Marvcus Patton and not Devin White.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong here. Travis Kelce is very probably the most athletically gifted TE in history. He's physical, he's agile, he's fast, his hands are elite. He's fearless in traffic and smart in space.

There's literally not a single goddamn thing he doesn't do amazingly well. And he does it in part because he's a very smart football player but the league has been FULL of smart football players. He's not elite because he's smart - he's elite because he's smart AND among the most physically gifted players to ever play the position.

This is crazy. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here but it's not worth the trouble. If you're trying to build the guy up by making some bizarre underdog story out of the guy and claim he's a lunchpail player who gets more with less or something - you're just wrong. This guy has gifts unlike anything the position has ever seen. And yes, he puts them to their highest and best use, but that's why he's a damn HoFer and not some flash in the pan.

You take Kelce's physical tools and eliminate his football savvy and you probably get...i dunno - Jimmy Graham? Take his brains and eliminate his tools and you get...uh...Ben Coates?

In either event, trying to diminish the exceptional physical gifts Travis Kelce brings to the table to make him some sort of lunch pail grinder story is just asinine. There has never been a peak that approaches Travis Kelce. His top end strafes anyone that's ever done this before.

Who said he wasn’t hall of fame gifted? Who said he was a mediocre player who just worked hard? Your words, not mine.

We are talking about a really, really high bar when you’re talking GOAT and you’re acting like it’s offensive to say that the other guys in that conversation are really damn good too. Gonzalez and gronk were considered GOAT until kelce established himself and threw his hat in the ring.

I know gonzo rubbed people the wrong way. But he earned his right to be in that convo. There are things kelce can do that gonzo can’t. But vice versa too. Gonzo excelled across eras even when he was old and defenses adjusted to the tight end. Gonzalez was an insanely good jump ball and red zone target, and he did it while carrying absolutely lousy receivers and qbs for much of his career. Including in an era when qbs were heaving up prayer balls to him as our offensive strategy. That doesn’t mean kelce can’t do that. They are gifted in different ways. But we don’t need to undermine gonzos talents to prop up kelce. And if anyone brings this noise outside the kc bubble they’ll get laughed out of the room if they suggest gronk isn’t heavily in this conversation. I don’t think it does us any favors to walk in to these discussions with a distorted view of the competition. It’s not that kelce can’t do these things at a high level. But we are talking about calling him the most physically gifted tight end among the best tight ends IN HISTORY.

I think people are misremembering history. The homer in me believes kelce is the GOAT. But there is nothing wrong with anyone who thinks it’s gonzo or gronk.

[Marcellus]

It's nuts to me that we're going to act like Kelce isn't an incredible contested catch guy. Moreover, what Kelce does in space is absolutely insane and yes, gets back to his innate athletic ability.

Gonzalez does NOT house that catch that Kelce made for the first score Sunday. That agility and immediate ability to get upfield at speed just doesn't happen. Oh sure, Tony probably makes the catch but he doesn't catch it, get upfield, eat up that much space and then hurdle the damn safety to get clean into the end zone.

Kelce is the evolutionary version of Tony G. He's the same guy...but better. Gonzalez was one of the very first of the new breed of TEs who could move in space, overpower smaller defenders and abuse LBers. But the LBers he was abusing were Marvcus Patton and not Devin White.

I'm sorry but you're just wrong here. Travis Kelce is very probably the most athletically gifted TE in history. He's physical, he's agile, he's fast, his hands are elite. He's fearless in traffic and smart in space.

There's literally not a single goddamn thing he doesn't do amazingly well. And he does it in part because he's a very smart football player but the league has been FULL of smart football players. He's not elite because he's smart - he's elite because he's smart AND among the most physically gifted players to ever play the position.

This is crazy. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here but it's not worth the trouble. If you're trying to build the guy up by making some bizarre underdog story out of the guy and claim he's a lunchpail player who gets more with less or something - you're just wrong. This guy has gifts unlike anything the position has ever seen. And yes, he puts them to their highest and best use, but that's why he's a damn HoFer and not some flash in the pan.

You take Kelce's physical tools and eliminate his football savvy and you probably get...i dunno - Jimmy Graham? Take his brains and eliminate his tools and you get...uh...Ben Coates?

In either event, trying to diminish the exceptional physical gifts Travis Kelce brings to the table to make him some sort of lunch pail grinder story is just asinine. There has never been a peak that approaches Travis Kelce. His top end strafes anyone that's ever done this before.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/a0Lgc1JvbfS4o" width="480" height="360" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/star-trek-a0Lgc1JvbfS4o">via GIPHY</a></p>

[O.city]

It's you downplaying his elite physical traits. Nothing else.

[Hammock Parties]

The Most impressive Gronk Stat to me: 92 TD's in 143 Games played. That's pretty incredible.

just because of brady

[Bump]

Like I said, the only question is longevity. Kelce has six 1,000+ yard seasons in a row and is on pace for 1,300 this year. The next best TE only has 4 in their career. If those other guys were so unstoppable then what the **** is Kelce?

Kelce is the GOAT TE

others might try and argue and say Gonzo is because of his longevity and he 'changed the position'

but nobody has had as much impact as Kelce, plus Kelce's playoff stats have to count for something as well.

[DJ's left nut]

Who said he wasn’t hall of fame gifted? Who said he was a mediocre player who just worked hard? Your words, not mine.
...
I think people are misremembering history. The homer in me believes kelce is the GOAT. But there is nothing wrong with anyone who thinks it’s gonzo or gronk.

This you, bucko?


In the end, that’s why kelce - a guy who isn’t as physically gifted as some of the all time great TEs including in his own teams history - still belongs in the conversation of all time greatest.

Maybe just go with "I come not to bury Caesar, but Praise him..." or something...

Like I said - I suspect your point was to make some scrappy underdog tale and build Kelce up by trying to argue that hard work and effort put him alongside guys who he couldn't hang with athletically.

And I'm telling you - you're wrong. 100% unequivocally, absolutely wrong.

Travis Kelce hangs with and/or demolishes every single person you've named from a strictly athletic perspective. FFS - Jason !@#$ing Witten? What are we even talking about here?

Travis Kelce's is as physically gifted as any TE to ever step between the lines. Full stop. Trying to argue otherwise in some inane effort to prop up his football savvy does a disservice to how extraordinary and rare his combination of intelligence, dedication and athleticism truly is.

[Marcellus]

This you, bucko?



Maybe just go with "I come not to bury Caesar, but Praise him..." or something...

Like I said - I suspect your point was to make some scrappy underdog tale and build Kelce up by trying to argue that hard work and effort put him alongside guys who he couldn't hang with athletically.

And I'm telling you - you're wrong. 100% unequivocally, absolutely wrong.

Travis Kelce hangs with and/or demolishes every single person you've named from a strictly athletic perspective. FFS - Jason !@#$ing Witten? What are we even talking about here?

Travis Kelce's is as physically gifted as any TE to ever step between the lines. Full stop. Trying to argue otherwise in some inane effort to prop up his football savvy does a disservice to how extraordinary and rare his combination of intelligence, dedication and athleticism truly is.

I mean FFS, has Zilla not seen Kelce dance?

[chiefzilla1501]

It's you downplaying his elite physical traits. Nothing else.

I’m not downplaying his physical abilities. People are downplaying the best of all timers to prop our own guy up. Imagine finding it horrible and insulting to suggest a player has hall of fame abilities.

[BigRedChief]

Appreciation is due. For sure it ends in the HOF.

He’s 34 now or will be. We saw him on the sidelines more, recovering or catching his breath. No one avoids aging. I’m going to miss him when he retires. One of my favorite all time Chief players.

[displacedinMN]

always looking for the ball.....always

[DJ's left nut]

I’m not downplaying his physical abilities. People are downplaying the best of all timers to prop our own guy up. Imagine finding it horrible and insulting to suggest a player has hall of fame abilities.

Imagine saying that Travis Kelce is athletically inferior to Jason Witten and trying to use that as a feather in his cap.

Again - think of the defenses Gonzalez was going against. These were defenses built around stopping the run. Devin White didn't exist back then. There was Derrick Brooks and then...yeah, Derrick Brooks.

There are a dozen guys who can give you the size/speed combo of Derrick Brooks these days. Willie Gay can do it. Shit, Leo Chenal can do it.

These are COMPLETELY different guys that Kelce is beating out there. The guy can run a simple dig route and have cornerbacks literally tripping over their own feet.

But because Tony G caught passes in traffic I'm supposed to say he's somehow athletically superior to Travis Kelce? Because Gronk can run over guys I'm supposed to say he's a better athlete - shit, Dontari Poe can run over guys, was he a better athlete than Travis Kelce?

You're just completely out to lunch here. No, these guys were absolutely not better athletes than Travis Kelce.

[chiefzilla1501]

This you, bucko?



Maybe just go with "I come not to bury Caesar, but Praise him..." or something...

Like I said - I suspect your point was to make some scrappy underdog tale and build Kelce up by trying to argue that hard work and effort put him alongside guys who he couldn't hang with athletically.

And I'm telling you - you're wrong. 100% unequivocally, absolutely wrong.

Travis Kelce hangs with and/or demolishes every single person you've named from a strictly athletic perspective. FFS - Jason !@#$ing Witten? What are we even talking about here?

Travis Kelce's is as physically gifted as any TE to ever step between the lines. Full stop. Trying to argue otherwise in some inane effort to prop up his football savvy does a disservice to how extraordinary and rare his combination of intelligence, dedication and athleticism truly is.

Oh good grief. I brought witten and Andrews up because blocking is part of the conversation for GOAT. You cannot walk into a debate outside this bubble comparing him to gronk and completely dismiss if. You’ll get throttled. Kelce is solid enough as a blocker but he’s not elite.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You believe he’s a blowout in every category? I don’t believe that’s true. Even noting his extraordinary football iq, route running, and effort the GOAT discussion is really close. And it’s not crazy to suggest guys like gonzo and gronk belong in this conversation. So if you’re suggesting that he’s also more physically gifted than these guys than you’re claiming this is a blowout.

I agree with you that it’s his unique combo of everything that makes him GOAT. I don’t think it’s crazy or upsetting at all to suggest that on physical talent alone, he isnt. Again that is not saying he’s anything short of exceptional on physical talent alone.

[chiefzilla1501]

Imagine saying that Travis Kelce is athletically inferior to Jason Witten and trying to use that as a feather in his cap.

Again - think of the defenses Gonzalez was going against. These were defenses built around stopping the run. Devin White didn't exist back then. There was Derrick Brooks and then...yeah, Derrick Brooks.

There are a dozen guys who can give you the size/speed combo of Derrick Brooks these days. Willie Gay can do it. Shit, Leo Chenal can do it.

These are COMPLETELY different guys that Kelce is beating out there. The guy can run a simple dig route and have cornerbacks literally tripping over their own feet.

But because Tony G caught passes in traffic I'm supposed to say he's somehow athletically superior to Travis Kelce? Because Gronk can run over guys I'm supposed to say he's a better athlete - shit, Dontari Poe can run over guys, was he a better athlete than Travis Kelce?

You're just completely out to lunch here. No, these guys were absolutely not better athletes than Travis Kelce.

I said witten was a more gifted blocker. And he was.

[chiefzilla1501]

I’ve said many times that MJ was the best to ever play any sport. The eyeball test says differently. Lebron should mop the floor for best ever to play the game. That doesn’t mean MJ wins this because he’s scrappy or lunch pail. He used his talents way better than Lebron did physically and mentally. That ultimately is what puts kelce over the top of some tight ends who had absolutely outstanding careers.

[threebag]

What in the fuck does this even mean?

He is a curator of his trade

[tredadda]

Oh good grief. I brought witten and Andrews up because blocking is part of the conversation for GOAT. You cannot walk into a debate outside this bubble comparing him to gronk and completely dismiss if. You’ll get throttled. Kelce is solid enough as a blocker but he’s not elite.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You believe he’s a blowout in every category? I don’t believe that’s true. Even noting his extraordinary football iq, route running, and effort the GOAT discussion is really close. And it’s not crazy to suggest guys like gonzo and gronk belong in this conversation. So if you’re suggesting that he’s also more physically gifted than these guys than you’re claiming this is a blowout.

I agree with you that it’s his unique combo of everything that makes him GOAT. I don’t think it’s crazy or upsetting at all to suggest that on physical talent alone, he isnt. Again that is not saying he’s anything short of exceptional on physical talent alone.

Blocking comes up in GOAT conversations if you are talking about Olinemen, not TEs. No one remembers who the greatest TEs are based on blocking. That’s like judging GOAT QBs based off of their play action pass ability. How good of a blocker was Jerry Rice? No one knows or cares. History will look back on Kelce and see one of if not the greatest TE to ever suit up.

[DJ's left nut]

Oh good grief. I brought witten and Andrews up because blocking is part of the conversation for GOAT. You cannot walk into a debate outside this bubble comparing him to gronk and completely dismiss if. You’ll get throttled. Kelce is solid enough as a blocker but he’s not elite.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You believe he’s a blowout in every category? I don’t believe that’s true. Even noting his extraordinary football iq, route running, and effort the GOAT discussion is really close. And it’s not crazy to suggest guys like gonzo and gronk belong in this conversation. So if you’re suggesting that he’s also more physically gifted than these guys than you’re claiming this is a blowout.

I agree with you that it’s his unique combo of everything that makes him GOAT. I don’t think it’s crazy or upsetting at all to suggest that on physical talent alone, he isnt. Again that is not saying he’s anything short of exceptional.

Peak ability it IS a blowout.

Tony Gonzalez had more than 1,000 yards 4 times in 17 years, Kelce's done it 6 times in a row. Tony G had 5 years of greater than 90 receptions - Kelce's gonna click off his 5th consecutive such season this year.

Tony never once had a single season where he averaged more than 9 yards/target. Kelce has averaged 9 yards/target for his career.

Moreover, you're acting like your counter-examples were some pile of lazy, braindead mongoloids. They weren't - those guys were extremely smart players in their own right.

I ask again - what do ANY of those guys bring to the table physically that Kelce can't answer? Gonzalez doesn't have a single thing on him. Not one. Size, strength, speed, agility - none of it. He didn't beat Kelce in a single one of those areas physically. Gronk is stronger - Kelce beats him in every other metric.

Gates didn't have anywhere near the fluidity Kelce has. Straight line speed? He may have had Kelce for a couple of years there, I'll give you that. But he didn't use his speed as well as Kelce does and frankly Kelce's ability to retain speed while moving gave him a better athletic profile than Gates. It made him far more dangerous.

You say we're overselling Kelce's athleticism. I say you're underselling the rest of these guy's savvy and work ethic. Trait for trait, I don't see how you can say Kelce isn't the equal of the rest of these guys.

[DJ's left nut]

I said witten was a more gifted blocker. And he was.

And what in the actual hell does that have to do with their athleticism? Was Jason Dunn a superior athlete to Travis Kelce?

Wait - I've gone one. And god help me I think I know the answer.

Blake Bell. Please please PLEASE tell me you're not going to try to argue that Blake Bell is a superior athlete to Travis Kelce because he timed well and can block his ass off.

[jd1020]

Acting like you have to "prop up" a guy who has the most 1,000 yard seasons for the position, the most 100+ reception seasons for the position, and the record for the most receiving yards in a season for the position, is the single dumbest argument anyone could make.

[Megatron96]

Blocking comes up in GOAT conversations if you are talking about Olinemen, not TEs. No one remembers who the greatest TEs are based on blocking. That’s like judging GOAT QBs based off of their play action pass ability. How good of a blocker was Jerry Rice? No one knows or cares. History will look back on Kelce and see one of if not the greatest TE to ever suit up.

In his prime, Jerry Rice was considered the best blocking WR of his era and all time. It was brought up in just about every televised game he ever played.

[Megatron96]

It's kind of funny looking at this argument from outside. I mean, there was a time not all that long ago when TEs were valued principally for their blocking skills. Catching the ball was secondary for TEs before TG, who singlehandedly initiated a sea change in how TEs were viewed, used, and ultimately drafted.

[DJ's left nut]

It's kind of funny looking at this argument from outside. I mean, there was a time not all that long ago when TEs were valued principally for their blocking skills. Catching the ball was secondary for TEs before TG, who singlehandedly initiated a sea change in how TEs were viewed, used, and ultimately drafted.

Kellen Winslow was probably the guy who started that ball rolling. Todd Christensen was also doing the H-Back sort of thing before TG.

And I think we have to grudgingly acknowledge that Shannon Sharpe from 1993 to 1997 was every bit of what Tony G was and Tony didn't really break out until 2000.

Hard to say Tony really reset anything. He was the gold standard, but he wasn't the first.

[tredadda]

In his prime, Jerry Rice was considered the best blocking WR of his era and all time. It was brought up in just about every televised game he ever played.

Did they bring that up when he was inducted into the HOF? Something like listing his stats and then adding a blurb about how amazing of a blocker he was?

[chiefzilla1501]

Blocking comes up in GOAT conversations if you are talking about Olinemen, not TEs. No one remembers who the greatest TEs are based on blocking. That’s like judging GOAT QBs based off of their play action pass ability. How good of a blocker was Jerry Rice? No one knows or cares. History will look back on Kelce and see one of if not the greatest TE to ever suit up.

Blocking is way more of an important consideration for a tight end. Of course a pure blocker is not going to be considered GOAT. But with witten you have an exceptional blocker who was also a very good receiver (no, I’m not suggesting he’s anywhere near kelce overall). But with gronk you have an exceptional receiver who was also a dominant blocker. It absolutely matters if you’re talking best of the best of the best .

[chiefzilla1501]

For anyone suggesting blocking doesn’t matter, there is going to be lots of debate in the coming years about who the true GOAT is at TE. And it won’t be because of receiving.

[Marcellus]

For anyone suggesting blocking doesn’t matter, there is going to be lots of debate in the coming years about who the true GOAT is at TE. And it won’t be because of receiving.

Damn dude you just can’t figure out when to stop and keep
doubling down on wrong. Your argument sucks stop trying to sell it.

First rule of holes, when you are in one stop digging.

[Megatron96]

Kellen Winslow was probably the guy who started that ball rolling. Todd Christensen was also doing the H-Back sort of thing before TG.

And I think we have to grudgingly acknowledge that Shannon Sharpe from 1993 to 1997 was every bit of what Tony G was and Tony didn't really break out until 2000.

Hard to say Tony really reset anything. He was the gold standard, but he wasn't the first.

All true. Forgot about Winslow. Kind of before my time.

I watched Sharpe and TG; I believe that TG was better, though Sharpe was probably faster.

My point about TG resetting the position had more to do with how offenses were built by the time he passed his prime; in Sharpe's time TEs still weren't as highly valued by the NFL, not yet. RBs in general wee more highly valued than TEs then.

He was valued very highly by DEN, but even by the Broncos they neglected to use him as a primary target in the RZ, often preferring to either run the ball or find a WR instead fairly often. As such he only had 5 seasons out of 14 where he averaged more than 55 yds/game, while Kelce only has 2 seasons of less than 55 yds/game so far in his career. Sharpe has just 7 seasons being targeted more than 100 times/season, Kelce has just one season in his career being targeted less than 100 times. Kelce already has nearly 100 more catches for 1st downs than Sharpe.

And so on. Just illustrating that TEs, even on a (for that era) pass-happy DEN team, weren't used the way receiving TEs are used today. So if we can agree that TG didn't start the receiving TE trend, he was the bridge between the old school use of TEs vs. the modern era? That feels more accurate.

Whatever, at some point it's almost semantics. Tony is the gold standard of TEs, mostly for his receiving abilities, but he was also just about the most complete TE in the modern era, able to do a lot more than just catch contested balls thrown almost entirely by JAG QBs over his career. If he'd had his prime years with an elite QB, who knows how many more yards, TDs, etc. he would've had. It's actually more impressive that he accomplished everything that he did n spite of the fact that his QBs were mostly scrubs.

[Megatron96]

Did they bring that up when he was inducted into the HOF? Something like listing his stats and then adding a blurb about how amazing of a blocker he was?

Jerry did in his speech, iirc. Someone did. Maybe it was one of the commentators. Don't believe a particular stat was brought up though it could've happened.

Not sure why this is an emotional issue for you. I related an indisputable fact, nothing more.

And part of a TEs responsibilities is blocking. In fact, TEs that don't/won't block are not long in the NFL. See Jimmy Graham as the most recent and visible example. He specifically declined to block after leaving NO and became a non-factor as any kind of offensive weapon immediately after.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Kelce (still) gets from point A to point B like an elite WR. He’s not 4.3 in 40 yd dash terms, but he’s 4.3 in functional football route running terms. On our first TD he got from the 10 yd line into the end zone as fast as anyone in the game could have. He took the “as-the-crow-flies” route, and I’m not sure anyone else playing the game right now could’ve done that the way he did it.

If that’s not elite, freakish athleticism then I don’t know what is. From a man-beast who turns 33 years old in two days and might have the best personality in the history of the NFL.

Everyone should savor every play of the rest of his career, because he is an irreplaceable L E G E N D.

[tredadda]

Jerry did in his speech, iirc. Someone did. Maybe it was one of the commentators. Don't believe a particular stat was brought up though it could've happened.

Not sure why this is an emotional issue for you. I related an indisputable fact, nothing more.

And part of a TEs responsibilities is blocking. In fact, TEs that don't/won't block are not long in the NFL. See Jimmy Graham as the most recent and visible example. He specifically declined to block after leaving NO and became a non-factor as any kind of offensive weapon immediately after.

It’s not really emotional for me. If it came out as such my apologies. I don’t disagree that blocking is important for TEs, just that when deciding on the GOAT or not blocking won’t be the factor that it’s being made out to be.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Kellen Winslow was probably the guy who started that ball rolling. Todd Christensen was also doing the H-Back sort of thing before TG.

And I think we have to grudgingly acknowledge that Shannon Sharpe from 1993 to 1997 was every bit of what Tony G was and Tony didn't really break out until 2000.

Hard to say Tony really reset anything. He was the gold standard, but he wasn't the first.

Ditka helped as well.

[scho63]

Kelce makes it look effortless. He is so dialed in it's incredible.

I think he has another 4-5 years left.

[Megatron96]

It’s not really emotional for me. If it came out as such my apologies. I don’t disagree that blocking is important for TEs, just that when deciding on the GOAT or not blocking won’t be the factor that it’s being made out to be.

Cool.

Maybe someday. But the case is still being made right now that Gronk is the greatest TE to ever play because of his elite receiving skills plus his incredible blocking skills in combination.

It's the alchemy of the two skillsets in one package that make Gronk a serious candidate for greatness, not one vs. the other.

Now someday maybe TEs will become so receiver-oriented that they won't be asked to block anymore, or maybe the league will install a reg that prohibits TEs from blocking or whatever. But for now, at least as i hear it discussed, blocking is still integral to what a TE does.

[chiefzilla1501]

Damn dude you just can’t figure out when to stop and keep
doubling down on wrong. Your argument sucks stop trying to sell it.

First rule of holes, when you are in one stop digging.

It’s the exact opposite.

Anyone who discounts blocking when comparing two legends like kelce and gronk isn’t taking the debate seriously.

I am still picking kelce. But without a doubt it is a huge factor when comparing two tight ends who are both elite receivers.

[tyecopeland]

Kelce has 26 catches on the season. 3 tds. 21 first downs.

[Marcellus]

It’s the exact opposite.

Anyone who discounts blocking when comparing two legends like kelce and gronk isn’t taking the debate seriously.

I am still picking kelce. But without a doubt it is a huge factor when comparing two tight ends who are both elite receivers.

When the yards aren’t close nobody will care about blocking. Kelce’s job is to make plays catching the ball and he is literally a #1 WR level producer catching the ball in the NFL.

His blocking is more then adequate.

All the guys on the top TE are judged by catching the ball. You yourself used Gates as some level of comparison. He was known for one thing.

Blocking is cool and all but it’s not catching 10 passes for 120 and a TD.

[Gary Cooper]

Cool.

Maybe someday. But the case is still being made right now that Gronk is the greatest TE to ever play because of his elite receiving skills plus his incredible blocking skills in combination.

It's the alchemy of the two skillsets in one package that make Gronk a serious candidate for greatness, not one vs. the other.

Now someday maybe TEs will become so receiver-oriented that they won't be asked to block anymore, or maybe the league will install a reg that prohibits TEs from blocking or whatever. But for now, at least as i hear it discussed, blocking is still integral to what a TE does.
Gronk gets injured falling out of bed every morning. Same with Antonio Gates. Those guys were both great but too fragile.

Meanwhile, Kelce and Gonzalez had crazy durability.

[DJ's left nut]

It’s the exact opposite.

Anyone who discounts blocking when comparing two legends like kelce and gronk isn’t taking the debate seriously.

I am still picking kelce. But without a doubt it is a huge factor when comparing two tight ends who are both elite receivers.

Gronk is in the discussion for 3 reasons:

1) Rings (thanks Brady)
2) TDs (no question he's an elite red zone weapon)
3) Age

It sucks but there's no escaping it - Travis Kelce wasn't playing until he was 25 years old. Gronk and Tony G were 21.

That's 3-4 more years those guys have to rack up numbers in their respective athletic primes. Gronk had 42 touchdowns by the time he was 25. He got a head start that would be considered an outstanding career for 90% of the TEs to ever play. Tony G had a 20 touchdown and 3K yard head start.

Gronk also has rings and an east coast media bias to help him out.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with your assertion that Travis Kelce isn't the athlete either of those guys were. Because you've still yet to even attempt to argue that fact other than provide a sort of back-door "well if he WERE the athlete these guys were, he'd blow them out of the water" sort of logically untenable mess.

[Megatron96]

Gronk gets injured falling out of bed every morning. Same with Antonio Gates. Those guys were both great but too fragile.

Meanwhile, Kelce and Gonzalez had crazy durability.

Facts.

If Gronk could've been a lot healthier over his career, his numbers would've been even more outrageous. In all, Gronk missed 36 games over his 12-year career as well as the entire 2019 season. If he'd played in like 90% of those missed games, he'd probably have another 3,600 yds, for a total of nearly 13,000 yds, second to just TG in that regard. And another 16 or so TDs, for a total of 108? (Btw, isn't ludicrious to look at those numbers and Gonzalez would still in all likelihood be no.1 in both those stats? Crazy)

Gronk was a mutant freak, but a fragile one.

[DJ's left nut]

Facts.

If Gronk could've been a lot healthier over his career, his numbers would've been even more outrageous. In all, Gronk missed 36 games over his 12-year career as well as the entire 2019 season. If he'd played in like 90% of those missed games, he'd probably have another 3,600 yds, for a total of nearly 13,000 yds, second to just TG in that regard. And another 16 or so TDs, for a total of 108? (Btw, isn't ludicrious to look at those numbers and Gonzalez would still in all likelihood be no.1 in both those stats? Crazy)

Gronk was a mutant freak, but a fragile one.

Kelce's gonna be an interesting hybrid of the two from a production standpoint when all is said and done.

Won't have that insane 80 game stretch like Gronk had (65 TDs in 80 games...just - wow). But he'll blow past him in most productivity categories because of longevity. Meanwhile pick any sample size of games and Kelce's productivity will beat TGs over the same stretch and yet he ain't gonna play 270 of a possible 272 games over a 17 year career.

You really do have to look at Tony G's durability and longevity and just shake your head. After playing 240 career games, the guy still averaged right at 900 yards/season his last 2 seasons.

Wanna know what's incredible? Travis Kelce STILL hasn't played half as many games as Tony Gonzalez played in his career. I mean Gonzalez was just a war horse.

[Megatron96]

Kelce's gonna be an interesting hybrid of the two from a production standpoint when all is said and done.

Won't have that insane 80 game stretch like Gronk had (65 TDs in 80 games...just - wow). But he'll blow past him in most productivity categories because of longevity. Meanwhile pick any sample size of games and Kelce's productivity will beat TGs over the same stretch and yet he ain't gonna play 270 of a possible 272 games over a 17 year career.

You really do have to look at Tony G's durability and longevity and just shake your head. After playing 240 career games, the guy still averaged right at 900 yards/season his last 2 seasons.

Wanna know what's incredible? Travis Kelce STILL hasn't played half as many games as Tony Gonzalez played in his career. I mean Gonzalez was just a war horse.

Truth.

TG spoiled Chiefs fans beyond recognition, not only with his level of execution, but with his sheer reliability. Just a freak. Maybe THE freak.

Kelce is the second coming, kind of. Somehow KC lucked into another HOF TE, and not only that, Travis will go down statistically as the second-best TE in NFL history.

But in my book, Travis is the better of the two because he almost singlehandedly brought the Chiefs their second SB victory. His level of play during the playoffs was beyond elite (after that first quarter and a half of the HOU game, of course). As much as Mahomes, Travis deserves credit for bringing that beautiful trophy home. He was just a monster.

[DJ's left nut]

Truth.

TG spoiled Chiefs fans beyond recognition, not only with his level of execution, but with his sheer reliability. Just a freak. Maybe THE freak.

Kelce is the second coming, kind of. Somehow KC lucked into another HOF TE, and not only that, Travis will go down statistically as the second-best TE in NFL history.

But in my book, Travis is the better of the two because he almost singlehandedly brought the Chiefs their second SB victory. His level of play during the playoffs was beyond elite (after that first quarter and a half of the HOU game, of course). As much as Mahomes, Travis deserves credit for bringing that beautiful trophy home. He was just a monster.

Tony probably gets a ring if he has Mahomes at QB. I have a hard time using rings as part of the argument.

For me it's just a question of peak vs. duration. Do I value Tony's impossibly long prime more than Kelce's impossibly high standard during his peak?

My answer is Kelce and the reason why comes down to two words, words we've used in this very thread: Jason. Witten.

Jason Witten is the nearest thing the league has ever seen to TG in terms of reliable production and longevity. Witten played in 271 games to Tony's 270. he had 1220 receptions to TGs 1320. 13K yards to Tony's 15K.

He was, by virtually any measure, about 90% of what Gonzalez was and in a virtually indistinguishable manner.

Did you EVER concern yourself with Jason Witten? Was he ever someone you thought to yourself 'man, we have GOT to gameplan for Witten or he'll just destroy us'? I don't believe either of those things to be true.

And can Jason Witten say "hey, I just never had a quarterback I could win a championship with?" I don't believe this to be true either. Witten had Pro Bowl quarterbacks throwing the ball to him at various points throughout his prime. And in the end it just didn't mean that much.

So it makes me ask, in all sincerity - did Tony G do THAT much more for us than Jason Witten did for the Cowboys? And since neither team ever won a damn thing - did what they did really move the needle as much as we think it did?

At a point I have to wonder if BOTH of those guys greatness isn't dependent on being compilers. And in the process of compiling those stats, did they really make a major difference?

We have a hard time answering the question when it's Kelce vs. Tony but none of us would hesitate for a millisecond if it's Kelce vs. Witten. And Witten is a hell of a lot closer to Tony across the board than he is to Kelce.

So...should this question actually be that difficult afterall?

I kinda think that maybe it shouldn't be.

[Megatron96]

Tony probably gets a ring if he has Mahomes at QB. I have a hard time using rings as part of the argument.

For me it's just a question of peak vs. duration. Do I value Tony's impossibly long prime more than Kelce's impossibly high standard during his peak?

My answer is Kelce and the reason why comes down to two words, words we've used in this very thread: Jason. Witten.

Jason Witten is the nearest thing the league has ever seen to TG in terms of reliable production and longevity. Witten played in 271 games to Tony's 270. he had 1220 receptions to TGs 1320. 13K yards to Tony's 15K.

He was, by virtually any measure, about 90% of what Gonzalez was and in a virtually indistinguishable manner.

Did you EVER concern yourself with Jason Witten? Was he ever someone you thought to yourself 'man, we have GOT to gameplan for Witten or he'll just destroy us'? I don't believe either of those things to be true.

And can Jason Witten say "hey, I just never had a quarterback I could win a championship with?" I don't believe this to be true either. Witten had Pro Bowl quarterbacks throwing the ball to him at various points throughout his prime. And in the end it just didn't mean that much.

So it makes me ask, in all sincerity - did Tony G do THAT much more for us than Jason Witten did for the Cowboys? And since neither team ever won a damn thing - did what they did really move the needle as much as we think it did?

At a point I have to wonder if BOTH of those guys greatness isn't dependent on being compilers. And in the process of compiling those stats, did they really make a major difference?

We have a hard time answering the question when it's Kelce vs. Tony but none of us would hesitate for a millisecond if it's Kelce vs. Witten. And Witten is a hell of a lot closer to Tony across the board than he is to Kelce.

So...should this question actually be that difficult afterall?

I kinda think that maybe it shouldn't be.

Can't argue with any of that. Though imo, TG was a lot better than Witten, the eye test, if you will.

But yeah, Witten, though a very solid TE, never scared me. He was never going to take over a game. He'd just do Witten things.

TG was far more athletic and so could and did on occasion, but Kelce seems capable of doing it nearly every week. But then, the game is quite different than it was when TG was in his prime. The middle was a much more dangerous place back then.

[KChiefs1]

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chiefzilla1501]

When the yards aren’t close nobody will care about blocking. Kelce’s job is to make plays catching the ball and he is literally a #1 WR level producer catching the ball in the NFL.

His blocking is more then adequate.

All the guys on the top TE are judged by catching the ball. You yourself used Gates as some level of comparison. He was known for one thing.

Blocking is cool and all but it’s not catching 10 passes for 120 and a TD.

Yes, I used gates as a point of comparison based on pure athletic ability. You’re proving my point that the reason nobody puts him into the TE conversation was because he was a lousy blocker. I used witten as an example because he was an outstanding blocker but while he was once in the GOAT conversation he never really could get legs because he wasn’t even close to the elite level of other TEs as a receiver. I am using one attribute to discuss these guys, not saying these guys are in the conversation for GOAT. They’re not.

[chiefzilla1501]

Gronk is in the discussion for 3 reasons:

1) Rings (thanks Brady)
2) TDs (no question he's an elite red zone weapon)
3) Age

It sucks but there's no escaping it - Travis Kelce wasn't playing until he was 25 years old. Gronk and Tony G were 21.

That's 3-4 more years those guys have to rack up numbers in their respective athletic primes. Gronk had 42 touchdowns by the time he was 25. He got a head start that would be considered an outstanding career for 90% of the TEs to ever play. Tony G had a 20 touchdown and 3K yard head start.

Gronk also has rings and an east coast media bias to help him out.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with your assertion that Travis Kelce isn't the athlete either of those guys were. Because you've still yet to even attempt to argue that fact other than provide a sort of back-door "well if he WERE the athlete these guys were, he'd blow them out of the water" sort of logically untenable mess.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that. I think there is a ton to be said about playing the position the right way and I believe kelce did it better than anybody in history. Can you imagine if Jerry rice had speed or size like Randy moss? Rice isn’t even close to the most athletic receiver among the all time greats. That doesn’t mean athletic ability would’ve added a whole ton of stats to an insanely productive career. In fact I think kelce in a lot of ways is a more athletic version of Jerry rice. Much of their success is due to always being in the right place, running slick routes, and having outstanding ball instincts. Because they’re both absolutely elite in those areas.

While kelce had a head start over gonzo he’s also born a little bit on first base. As was gronk. Neither player has played much with a bad qb and they played in an aerial passing era. Both played for HOF coaches and kelce lined up next to a legit top tier WR. TG didn’t have those advantages. In fact I’d say his TD totals given his red zone skills would have been significantly better. Again, Without a shadow of a doubt im still taking kelce but it’s not quite the gap you’re making it to be. What gonzo did with the kind of talent he was surrounded with is really incredible too.

[Red Dawg]

I know this much. If Travis had Mahomes when he started he would be passing TG's records. All of them.

[chiefzilla1501]

I know this much. If Travis had Mahomes when he started he would be passing TG's records. All of them.

And what if TG had mahomes for even half of his career? In an era where 5k passing yards is the norm?

[Red Dawg]

If Travis can play 15 years and that's being hopeful he will be very close. He may get past Gates in yards.

[Chiefnj2]

Gronk gets injured falling out of bed every morning. Same with Antonio Gates. Those guys were both great but too fragile.

Meanwhile, Kelce and Gonzalez had crazy durability.

Do you think Gonzalez played with the same physicality as Gronk?

I think Kelce takes way more hits than Gonzalez did and thus there is no way he will have the longevity.

[DJ's left nut]

Can't argue with any of that. Though imo, TG was a lot better than Witten, the eye test, if you will.

But yeah, Witten, though a very solid TE, never scared me. He was never going to take over a game. He'd just do Witten things.

TG was far more athletic and so could and did on occasion, but Kelce seems capable of doing it nearly every week. But then, the game is quite different than it was when TG was in his prime. The middle was a much more dangerous place back then.

And I'd have said exactly the same thing until I did just a little more digging. It's what made me wonder if my fan lenses didn't make the eye test a little more unreliable.

I mean - a 17 year career is a LOOOOOONG career. 270 games.

So you know what that means on a pro-rata basis? 8 more yards/game. It means every other game Tony G had a one more catch than Witten. It means every 8 games he had a TD that Witten didn't have.

I mean that's not nothing, don't get me wrong. It means that yes, Tony Gonzalez was definitely better than Witten. But 'a lot better'? Hmmm....I dunno.

Those two played in pretty similar environments. And for several years they were direct contemporaries. And yes, Witten had a better QB but I've said all the way back to the Dwayne Bowe era - I just don't think that bad quarterbacks impact the production of possession receivers that much, if at all. Because for every ball Damon Huard misfired trying to get the ball to TG, there's another that he forced into triple coverage to his security blanket. Or that he aborted his reads and fired to 88 as soon as he could.

I said it in the Hopkins vs. Hill conversations when people tried to talk about Hopkins having worse QB play and then I pointed out that having a better QB didn't meaningfully impact Hopkins production.

Does it make a player more IMPACTFUL? Sure - but in terms of raw counting stats, I don't think it makes a difference for guys like Witten and Gonzo. They get as much through 'security blanket' and garbage times catches/yards as they give up through missed connections.

And again - I'm not saying that Witten is TGs equal. He isn't. I'm just saying that those guys are awfully damn close in terms of their era, their style of play, their strengths and their production. So if you're willing to use Witten as a proxy for TG when you're 'ranking' guys, it starts to make things a whole lot more straightforward.

[notorious]

My eye test says that Kelce is the great TE of all time, and it's not close.

[DJ's left nut]

Yes, I used gates as a point of comparison based on pure athletic ability. You’re proving my point that the reason nobody puts him into the TE conversation was because he was a lousy blocker. I used witten as an example because he was an outstanding blocker but while he was once in the GOAT conversation he never really could get legs because he wasn’t even close to the elite level of other TEs as a receiver. I am using one attribute to discuss these guys, not saying these guys are in the conversation for GOAT. They’re not.

Gates isn't in that conversation because he got hurt. All the time. And then he fell apart physically, essentially becoming a glorified offensive lineman.

But for about a 6 year period there when he was healthy and dynamic, before the feet started messing with him, people were ABSOLUTELY putting him in the conversation as 'the new Tony Gonzalez' - oftentimes to the great chagrin of Chiefs fans.

But again - I'm not sure how this speaks to anyone's raw athleticism. Blocking is about technique and desire, especially for TEs. You're sitting here saying on one hand that Kelce's approach is what makes him great while simultaneously saying that his blocking is beneath the level of certain HoF caliber players. But...blocking IS about approach. Kittle isn't notably stronger than Kelce, if at all. He doesn't get out there and pancake guys because he's significantly stronger than Kelce. It's because he LOVES hitting guys. That's not athleticism - it's approach.

Gronk is the only guy to ever maul his way while blocking to any sort of prominence among the 'hushed tones' tight ends. And again, that style crippled his durability and his build made him LESS dynamic in most ways than Kelce has been. I just circle back around, again, to this 'athleticism' claim you're making. It simply doesn't hold up.

These guys were NOT more athletic than Kelce. And blocking wouldn't speak to it even if they were.

[DJ's left nut]

It doesn’t necessarily mean that. I think there is a ton to be said about playing the position the right way and I believe kelce did it better than anybody in history. Can you imagine if Jerry rice had speed or size like Randy moss? Rice isn’t even close to the most athletic receiver among the all time greats. That doesn’t mean athletic ability would’ve added a whole ton of stats to an insanely productive career. In fact I think kelce in a lot of ways is a more athletic version of Jerry rice. Much of their success is due to always being in the right place, running slick routes, and having outstanding ball instincts. Because they’re both absolutely elite in those areas.

While kelce had a head start over gonzo he’s also born a little bit on first base. As was gronk. Neither player has played much with a bad qb and they played in an aerial passing era. Both played for HOF coaches and kelce lined up next to a legit top tier WR. TG didn’t have those advantages. In fact I’d say his TD totals given his red zone skills would have been significantly better. Again, Without a shadow of a doubt im still taking kelce but it’s not quite the gap you’re making it to be. What gonzo did with the kind of talent he was surrounded with is really incredible too.

You creamed your jeans over Christian Watson, didn't you?

Being tall and running fast in a straight line is not the end all, be all of athleticism. Trying to say that Jerry Rice isn't among the most athletic WRs of all time demonstrates that you just have a real odd definition of athletic. He absolutely was.

He's ability to make cuts without losing any speed and all then immediately hit his top end was remarkable. It's what made him absolutely uncoverable in that WCO system. Was he gonna sky over dudes like Moss? No, but that's why Moss became a damn verb. But Moss wasn't out there making those speed cuts either. Moss was a different kind of athlete, but not a clearly better one that Rice.

Before he got hurt, over his first 11 seasons Jerry Rice averaged 16 yards per reception (Moss managed 16 yards/reception in 4 seasons over his entire career). You think he 'smarted' his way to that? No way - he ran around and past guys to rack up that kind of damage.

Was Larry Fitzgerald among the most athletic of the all-time great WRs? No, no he was not. Was Jerry Fucking Rice - the best football player of all time - among the most athletic WRs ever? Jesus Christ...dafuq do I even need to answer that question for? Of COURSE he was. That dude was a monster.

[lcarus]

Do you think Gonzalez played with the same physicality as Gronk?

I think Kelce takes way more hits than Gonzalez did and thus there is no way he will have the longevity.

I don't know who was more physical than who, but I definitely remember Gonzalez as a physical player. DBs had a hell of a time bringing him down.

[DJ's left nut]

And what if TG had mahomes for even half of his career? In an era where 5k passing yards is the norm?

He still wouldn't be as productive as Kelce. Because he's not as athletic as Kelce - at all.

What if TG had a QB that went through progressions instead of force-feeding him the ball? What if TG had a guy like Tyreek Hill out there siphoning off targets?

What if, what if, what if....

Again - Tony Gonzalez was not appreciably more productive than Jason Witten over the course of their careers. Careers that overlapped for a significant portion and careers that didn't see an enormous change in playing style for their respective peaks.

Tony Gonzalez was an excellent possession receiver and one of the best red zone weapons of all time. He was NOT the route runner Kelce is. He was not as fast or fluid as Kelce is.

Oh - and can we stop acting like TG has shit-ass quarterbacks and coaches his entire career? Dude played for 5 years with Trent Green and Dick Vermeil - Y'know, the same number of years that Travis Kelce has played with Reid/Mahomes. Those Chiefs offenses led the league in scoring and/or yards 4 times in that span, IIRC. He didn't have some pile-driving mongoloid and scattershot spread monkey throwing him footballs his whole career.

But good offense/bad offense - good HC/Bad HC - it didn't make much difference to his productivity. Because it just typically doesn't for possession receivers. And that's what TG was.

[dirk digler]

He still wouldn't be as productive as Kelce. Because he's not as athletic as Kelce - at all.

What if TG had a QB that went through progressions instead of force-feeding him the ball? What if TG had a guy like Tyreek Hill out there siphoning off targets?

What if, what if, what if....

Again - Tony Gonzalez was not appreciably more productive than Jason Witten over the course of their careers. Careers that overlapped for a significant portion and careers that didn't see an enormous change in playing style for their respective peaks.

Tony Gonzalez was an excellent possession receiver and one of the best red zone weapons of all time. He was NOT the route runner Kelce is. He was not as fast or fluid as Kelce is.

Oh - and can we stop acting like TG has shit-ass quarterbacks and coaches his entire career? Dude played for 5 years with Trent Green and Dick Vermeil - Y'know, the same number of years that Travis Kelce has played with Reid/Mahomes. Those Chiefs offenses led the league in scoring and/or yards 4 times in that span, IIRC. He didn't have some pile-driving mongoloid and scattershot spread monkey throwing him footballs his whole career.

But good offense/bad offense - good HC/Bad HC - it didn't make much difference to his productivity. Because it just typically doesn't for possession receivers. And that's what TG was.

TG was pretty athletic remember he played basketball. TG smoked corners and was routinely guarded by 2-3 players. Baldy does a good breakdown of TG and this is a good reminder how awesome he was.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eDyApaKUNhw" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DJ's left nut]

TG was pretty athletic remember he played basketball. TG smoked corners and was routinely guarded by 2-3 players. Baldy does a good breakdown of TG and this is a good reminder how awesome he was.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eDyApaKUNhw" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And like I said - I think it's all relative.

Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.

And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely.

[lcarus]

Kelce's stats are insane. Really starting in 2017 when Alex had his great last season in KC and especially when Mahomes took over in 2018. He's just been absolutely tearing the league apart at the fucking seams.

Guess what. He just might be on track for his best season ever this year. Scary...

[lcarus]

And like I said - I think it's all relative.

Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.

And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely.

Holy hell I forgot about Marvcus Patton. What a chiseled Greek marble statue that guy was. My god. That's one linebacker you don't wanna meet in a dark alley.

[dirk digler]

And like I said - I think it's all relative.

Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.

And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely.

Don't disagree just wanted to watch a video to remind myself how great he really was. His last year in 2013 I would consider in the modern era and at age 37 had 83 catches for 859 yds and 8 TD's. I have no doubt he would eat in 2022 just the same.

[htismaqe]

Kelce is the greatest ever. Period. End of story. :clap: :D

[AdolfOliverBush]

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.

[DJ's left nut]

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.

Ooohhhhhhh.....I like that.

Well done, sir.

[chiefzilla1501]

You creamed your jeans over Christian Watson, didn't you?

Being tall and running fast in a straight line is not the end all, be all of athleticism. Trying to say that Jerry Rice isn't among the most athletic WRs of all time demonstrates that you just have a real odd definition of athletic. He absolutely was.

He's ability to make cuts without losing any speed and all then immediately hit his top end was remarkable. It's what made him absolutely uncoverable in that WCO system. Was he gonna sky over dudes like Moss? No, but that's why Moss became a damn verb. But Moss wasn't out there making those speed cuts either. Moss was a different kind of athlete, but not a clearly better one that Rice.

Before he got hurt, over his first 11 seasons Jerry Rice averaged 16 yards per reception (Moss managed 16 yards/reception in 4 seasons over his entire career). You think he 'smarted' his way to that? No way - he ran around and past guys to rack up that kind of damage.

Was Larry Fitzgerald among the most athletic of the all-time great WRs? No, no he was not. Was Jerry ****ing Rice - the best football player of all time - among the most athletic WRs ever? Jesus Christ...dafuq do I even need to answer that question for? Of COURSE he was. That dude was a monster.

Jerry rice by the eye test was not GOAT level athletic. You really think he comes close to the speed and vertical of moss, or the size/speed combo of megatron? Of course he was extremely athletic but on the eye test there’s no way you can throw him in a combine and predict he would be the GOAT at his position by a wide margin. You seem to use athleticism and feel for the position interchangeably. I’m separating those things out. So much of rices success is built off of absurdly next level route running, awareness, and the best ball skills and hands in football history. There were so many little things that added up. Hell, nobody reacted to the snap quicker than jerry rice. He was an absurdly, practically perfect tactician of the position. He was Tim Duncan on the most potent of steroids. Not to mention being known as easily the hardest working player in the league. Rice was the best at these things by a very wide margin when compared to the greats. And I’d say kelce will be considered the best at these things too.

But there is no way on pure athletic talent alone rice compares to some guys who are physical freaks of nature. I mean, megatron alone may as well have been built out of a science lab. Even if megatron played with bill Walsh and Montana rice would still destroy megatron.

What the hell does Christian Watson have to do with anything? Are there people creaming their jeans for cooper kupp? You’re damn right they are, as they should

[DJ's left nut]

Again - I feel like you're just substituting straight line speed for athleticism.

If your eyes don't tell you that peak Jerry Rice wasn't a freak athlete, imma say your eyes are broken.

[chiefzilla1501]

Again - I feel like you're just substituting straight line speed for athleticism.

If your eyes don't tell you that peak Jerry Rice wasn't a freak athlete, imma say your eyes are broken.

Of course you have to be a hell of an athlete to be that productive. But you’re going to argue he was even close to the freak megatron was? It’s not like he had tyreek like quickness. By all measures he was not even close to the fastest, strongest or quickest. The best you can say athletically is that he was incredible with his feet. But Chad Johnson gave you elite foot speed and route running while being faster, stronger and generally more athletic.

He was a freak athlete but that doesn’t mean he is even close to being the freakiest of the all time greats. It does not explain how he is not only better than every single wr in history, he is better by a wide margin.

[Chiefnj2]

It's virtually impossible to compare players across decades with rule changes/enforcement regarding contact downfield and legal/illegal hits, defenseless receiver etc.

[dirk digler]

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.

I have watched both in person and if I had to rank them currently I would put TG at 1 and TK at 2. Even if TK plays 5 more years to age 37 (unlikely) he wouldn't come close to TG's yards and TD's but obviously TG doesn't have the playoff\SB stats and wins like TK has.

I could probably make the argument if TG was playing in this era with Mahomes he would put up similar stats to TK and probably more TD's. Looking at pro football reference TG and TK are getting the same amount of targets per year and TG started out in era where they didn't pass near as much as they do today.

[lawrenceRaider]

It's virtually impossible to compare players across decades with rule changes/enforcement regarding contact downfield and legal/illegal hits, defenseless receiver etc.

While true, Kelce is pushing GOAT status. His skill set would fit any era.

[Gary Cooper]

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.
That's going too far. The gap between Jordan and Malone is much higher than Kelce/Gonzalez.

[AdolfOliverBush]

I have watched both in person and if I had to rank them currently I would put TG at 1 and TK at 2. Even if TK plays 5 more years to age 37 (unlikely) he wouldn't come close to TG's yards and TD's but obviously TG doesn't have the playoff\SB stats and wins like TK has.

I could probably make the argument if TG was playing in this era with Mahomes he would put up similar stats to TK and probably more TD's. Looking at pro football reference TG and TK are getting the same amount of targets per year and TG started out in era where they didn't pass near as much as they do today.

I compared TG to Malone because both have amazing stats. Malone had far more career points than Jordan thanks to longevity, but few would argue that Malone was even close to Jordan as a player.

Malone was also a HOFer who never got a ring.

[Gary Cooper]

I compared TG to Malone because both have amazing stats. Malone had far more career points than Jordan thanks to longevity, but few would argue that Malone was even close to Jordan as a player.

Malone was also a HOFer who never got a ring.
Moses Malone vs. Karl Malone would be a more apt comparison. The former also won a ring and had a higher peak, albeit he lacked the career numbers and durability that Karl Malone had.

[AdolfOliverBush]

That's going too far. The gap between Jordan and Malone is much higher than Kelce/Gonzalez.

I don't see it. TG was great, but he wasn't the difference-maker Kelce is. TG redefined the TE position, and never won shit. Kelce redefined the TE position again, and is a winner.

As someone else said, Kelce is the evolution of TG.

[DJ's left nut]

That's going too far. The gap between Jordan and Malone is much higher than Kelce/Gonzalez.

I think it's an excellent example of peak vs. duration, though.

Malone, statistically, exceeds the raw counting stats of Jordan. But the rate stats clearly favor Jordan. The question of peak vs. duration also reflects on the respective post-season resumes of the party.

No analogue is going to be completely perfect but man, I think that's a really good one. Jordan is the GOAT among all players - air reserved for Jerry Rice in the NFL, IMO. But Malone is likely a top 10-15 guy in his own right due to duration.

I mean if you want to take post-season accolades out of the equation and just compare them to TEs, would Kareem vs. Jordan suit you better?

[chiefzilla1501]

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.

So in qb terms you think kelce is Jordan and gonzalez is Philip rivers? Surely you don’t believe that.

[AdolfOliverBush]

So in qb terms you think kelce is Jordan and gonzalez is Philip rivers? Surely you don’t believe that.

TG would be a Dan Marino, although Marino made it to a Super Bowl.

[chiefzilla1501]

TG would be a Dan Marino, although Marino made it to a Super Bowl.

Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

[DJ's left nut]

Moses Malone vs. Karl Malone would be a more apt comparison. The former also won a ring and had a higher peak, albeit he lacked the career numbers and durability that Karl Malone had.

Moses Malone, even at his apex, wasn't doing things that hadn't been done before.

Kelce is.

This is a dude that had a legitimate shot at leading the NFL in receiving yards as a tight end (we sat him for game 16, IIRC). A guy who's setting benchmarks for CAREER thresholds at the same time he's doing it in consecutive seasons.

We've never seen a tight end hit these kind of height with this kind of sustainability. This really is unparalleled stuff.

[DJ's left nut]

Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

Wait - now Dan Marino 'doesn't measure up among the best of the best...'?

I truly don't know what we're doing anymore. This has gone beyond tragedy into farce.

[KChiefs1]

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.


Gonzalez is Wilt Chamberlain & Kelce is Jordan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[O.city]

Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers.

"Intangibles"

What.....what?

[chiefzilla1501]

Wait - now Dan Marino 'doesn't measure up among the best of the best...'?

I truly don't know what we're doing anymore. This has gone beyond tragedy into farce.

If we’re talking GOAT I am not putting him in the same conversation as Brady. And ultimately not with mahomes. No.

[chiefzilla1501]

Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers.

"Intangibles"

What.....what?

And as I’ve said over and over again, pure athletic talent is not how you measure the best of the best of the best. It puts you up there but it is the intangibles that put you over the top. Marino was exceptionally better at every physical dimension over Brady. Who’s picking Marino over Brady?

[Megatron96]

TG's QBs over his KC career:

Grbac/Gannon
Green
Huard
Croyle

Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC.

Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013.

Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better.

[dirk digler]

Moses Malone, even at his apex, wasn't doing things that hadn't been done before.

Kelce is.

This is a dude that had a legitimate shot at leading the NFL in receiving yards as a tight end (we sat him for game 16, IIRC). A guy who's setting benchmarks for CAREER thresholds at the same time he's doing it in consecutive seasons.

We've never seen a tight end hit these kind of height with this kind of sustainability. This really is unparalleled stuff.

TG lead the league in receptions in 2004 and was 7th in yds that year. In an era that didn't throw near like they do today.

[dirk digler]

TG's QBs over his KC career:

Grbac/Gannon
Green
Huard
Croyle

Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC.

Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013.

Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better.

If TG was playing with Mahomes in his prime, he would put up the same amount of catches, less yds but more TD's than TK. With the struggles we have on the goal line, TG would solve those problems.

And before anyone says well TG wouldn't get the targets\catches because Hill was on this team, just remember 35 yd TG had over 80 catches a year in Atlanta playing with Julio Jones and Roddy White.

[Gary Cooper]

I think it's an excellent example of peak vs. duration, though.

Malone, statistically, exceeds the raw counting stats of Jordan. But the rate stats clearly favor Jordan. The question of peak vs. duration also reflects on the respective post-season resumes of the party.

No analogue is going to be completely perfect but man, I think that's a really good one. Jordan is the GOAT among all players - air reserved for Jerry Rice in the NFL, IMO. But Malone is likely a top 10-15 guy in his own right due to duration.

I mean if you want to take post-season accolades out of the equation and just compare them to TEs, would Kareem vs. Jordan suit you better?
I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. I don't see Jordan as much better, especially if you count NCAA careers. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

Postseason success is being overrated here. Nobody mentions the postseason when Barry Sanders or Dick Butkus get discussion as the greatest at their position. Why is it different here? RB or MLB are even more important than TE. Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

[dirk digler]

Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

yep very true

[DJ's left nut]

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20. If anything my Karl Malone vs. Moses Malone comparison makes sense.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.


That's why I said you'd need to remove the post-season accolades to make the analogy work - Kareem has an outstanding post-season record. 6 rings and 2 (arguably 3?) Finals MVPs is more than "pretty damn good". People were trying to note that Kelce has a ring and a ton of post-season success around that Lombardi - TG has effectively NONE. I'm removing that from the calculus.

And again, while I disagree with you w/r/t Malone not being a top 10-15 player (I think his resume speaks for itself), I offered Kareem as an alternative for that very reason.

Because anyone who DOESN'T believe Abdul-Jabbar is a top 5 all time player probably needs to brush up on their history a bit. That dude was out there snatching souls in Milwaukee. And while most people remember him for his time in LA, those 5 years he spent with the Bucks were some of the most dominant years of all time as well.

So again - if you want to simply remove all discussion of the postseasons successes of TG/TK and focus on peak vs. duration, Abdul-Jabbar vs. Jordan really shouldn't be the kind of comparison that offends anyone.

Kareem detonated seemingly every meaningful counting stat there was to detonate but he didn't do it by having a sustained high peak - he did it by playing for 20 mostly healthy seasons. Jordan, OTOH, at his peak was simply better than anyone that had done it before or since.

[ChiTown]

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. I don't see Jordan as much better, especially if you count NCAA careers. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

Postseason success is being overrated here. Nobody mentions the postseason when Barry Sanders or Dick Butkus get mentioned as the possible greatest at their position. Why is it different here? RB or MLB are even more important than TE. Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

Agreed on that comment. Lynn Swann is living proof of that - 3 Pro Bowls in a 9 year career. 1st Team All Pro 1 time. Never had over 880 Yards Receiving in a season. But those Post Season catches and SB's got him into Canton.......

[ptlyon]

Agreed on that comment. Lynn Swann is living proof of that - 3 Pro Bowls in a 9 year career. 1st Team All Pro 1 time. Never had over 880 Yards Receiving in a season. But those Post Season catches and SB's got him into Canton.......

I always thought it was due to his appearance in The Water Boy

[Gary Cooper]

That's why I said you'd need to remove the post-season accolades to make the analogy work - Kareem has an outstanding post-season record. 6 rings and 2 (arguably 3?) Finals MVPs is more than "pretty damn good". People were trying to note that Kelce has a ring and a ton of post-season success around that Lombardi - TG has effectively NONE. I'm removing that from the calculus.

And again, while I disagree with you w/r/t Malone not being a top 10-15 player (I think his resume speaks for itself), I offered Kareem as an alternative for that very reason.

Because anyone who DOESN'T believe Abdul-Jabbar is a top 5 all time player probably needs to brush up on their history a bit. That dude was out there snatching souls in Milwaukee. And while most people remember him for his time in LA, those 5 years he spent with the Bucks were some of the most dominant years of all time as well.

So again - if you want to simply remove all discussion of the postseasons successes of TG/TK and focus on peak vs. duration, Abdul-Jabbar vs. Jordan really shouldn't be the kind of comparison that offends anyone.

Kareem detonated seemingly every meaningful counting stat there was to detonate but he didn't do it by having a sustained high peak - he did it by playing for 20 mostly healthy seasons. Jordan, OTOH, at his peak was simply better than anyone that had done it before or since.
Fair enough but Wilt had an even higher peak IMO. Kareem's peak in Milwaukee was also no worse than Jordan's.

Kelce's peak is probably higher than that of Gonzalez, but not by much. Gonzalez was also putting up numbers no other TE had previously. We have to consider the eras and the difference in QBs. Gonzalez was mugged frequently without any penalties called. Defensive holding and PI are called tighter today than 20 years ago. Also, modern tacklers can't lead with their helmet. That would make Gonzalez even more challenging to tackle. With his size and the current rules, Gonzalez has better numbers in today's league than 20 years ago, even considering his lack of speed.

I have no problem with someone saying Kelce is better, but I don't see large gap or a huge difference in their peaks. The biggest difference I see is team accomplishments. I think that skews perspectives greatly. Also, many posters can't overlook Tony's personality when comparing the two. Kelce is more beloved for a reason being a nice dude who helped us win a Super Bowl. Understandable.

[DJ's left nut]

yep very true

I don't disagree necessarily.

But Travis Kelce is 9-6 in the post-season and has made several MASSIVE plays to propel the Chiefs to victory in those 15 games. Lost in the come-back against Houston was that they simply had NO answer for what he was doing to them. It was dirty. His post-season run during the 'run it back' season is one for the ages.

The Tennessee game completely flipped on its head the moment he went down. He was destroying the Titans and when he got hurt the offense just completely seized up.

What he's done in the post-season has been exceptional.

Tony Gonzalez, OTOH, has a 1-6 record w/ 286 career receiving yards on 41 targets. And 4 of those games came with Matt Ryan under center, 2 of them with Trent Green - these aren't scrubs. And TG averaged 40 receiving yards/gm.

Kelce has 3 separate playoff runs that individually surpass anything Gonzalez did in his entire post-season career. He averages 86 receiving yards/gm. His TD rate goes up over his regular season numbers. He YPG go up. His level of play exceeds his regular season level. TGs didn't. Ever.

Are championships alone dispositive in the discussion? Nah - like I said, I won't use ring counts here. But has Travis Kelce undeniably obliterated TG's post-season resume? Lord, it's not even close. I mean take the 7 WORST games of Kelce's post-season career and he smokes Gonzalez.

And given that the question is 'who was more valuable' - shouldn't the fact that one of them was a damn site harder to deal with when the lights shone brightest count for at least SOMETHING?

[DJ's left nut]

Fair enough but Wilt had an even higher peak IMO. Kareem's peak in Milwaukee was also no worse than Jordan's.

Kelce's peak is probably higher than that of Gonzalez, but not by much. Gonzalez was also putting up numbers no other TE had previously. We have to consider the eras and the difference in QBs. Gonzalez was mugged frequently without any penalties called. Defensive holding and PI are called tighter today than 20 years ago. Also, modern tacklers can't lead with their helmet. That would make Gonzalez even more challenging to tackle. With his size and the current rules, Gonzalez has better numbers in today's league than 20 years ago, even considering his lack of speed.

I have no problem with someone saying Kelce is better, but I don't see large gap or a huge difference in their peaks. The biggest difference I see is team accomplishments. I think that skews perspectives greatly. Also, many posters can't overlook Tony's personality when comparing the two. Kelce is more beloved for a reason being a nice dude who helped us win a Super Bowl. Understandable.

Which was why I attempted to discuss Witten as a reasonable proxy. And he really is - it's startling how similar their careers were and during a period that largely overlaps...

Yet NOBODY on this board would ever say that Kelce and Witten are in the same league. And the difference in that reaction is not because TG was about 10% better than Witten over a 270 game sample size.

Tony was the face of the franchise for a decade. And at that TIME he was universally beloved. So while you say that people are giving Kelce too much credit due to team accomplishments - I think there's an argument to make that putting TG in the same tier in terms of Kelce when discussing their respective peaks is given TG too much credit without acknowledging his faults. If he were that much more dangerous than his contemporaries, you'd think he'd have smoked Witten's career numbers, no?

Yet here we are. 8 yards/gm over Witten. 1/2 a catch/gm. 2 TDs/yr. Added value, sure - but enough to really let him hang with Kelce? I just don't see it.

[Megatron96]

:popcorn:This is great stuff!

[Gary Cooper]

I don't disagree necessarily.

But Travis Kelce is 9-6 in the post-season and has made several MASSIVE plays to propel the Chiefs to victory in those 15 games. Lost in the come-back against Houston was that they simply had NO answer for what he was doing to them. It was dirty. His post-season run during the 'run it back' season is one for the ages.

The Tennessee game completely flipped on its head the moment he went down. He was destroying the Titans and when he got hurt the offense just completely seized up.

What he's done in the post-season has been exceptional.

Tony Gonzalez, OTOH, has a 1-6 record w/ 286 career receiving yards on 41 targets. And 4 of those games came with Matt Ryan under center, 2 of them with Trent Green - these aren't scrubs. And TG averaged 40 receiving yards/gm.

Kelce has 3 separate playoff runs that individually surpass anything Gonzalez did in his entire post-season career. He averages 86 receiving yards/gm. His TD rate goes up over his regular season numbers. He YPG go up. His level of play exceeds his regular season level. TGs didn't. Ever.

Are championships alone dispositive in the discussion? Nah - like I said, I won't use ring counts here. But has Travis Kelce undeniably obliterated TG's post-season resume? Lord, it's not even close. I mean take the 7 WORST games of Kelce's post-season career and he smokes Gonzalez.

And given that the question is 'who was more valuable' - shouldn't the fact that one of them was a damn site harder to deal with when the lights shone brightest count for at least SOMETHING?
Gonzalez only played a few postseason games in KC. He was 21 in 1997. He was green as hell. Caught a TD and had a controversial one called back. I believe he scored the Chiefs only TD in that game.

His next playoff game was 6 years later! Think about that. The infamous "No Punt Game". He did fine in that game. Certainly wasn't his fault the defense couldn't stop Peyton Manning. Does Kelce stop Peyton in that game? Probably not.

His next playoff game was 4 years later! Do you see the pattern here? The infamous Herman Edwards "Run, Run, Pass, Punt" game. He had the team's only TD in garbage time. Sure, he could have played better but the gameplan was vanilla trash that day.

I didn't follow his Atlanta career much. I know he made some Pro Bowls in his later years but his playoff career in KC is not his fault as outlined above.

[DJ's left nut]

But at a point the resume is the resume.

Excuse it away if you want but the league is littered with but/for cases.

You can't NOT give Kelce credit in this conversation because of justifications for where Gonzalez simply doesn't compare.

Do or do not. Kelce did. Often.

Gonzalez did not. That means something.

[ThaVirus]

Kelce was a beast without mahomes and with him. Even with Alex smith we’d be having the same damn conversation.

Sorry, but I 100% disagree on intangibles. Leadership is the difference between mahomes pumping his team up and grinding out tough wins vs Lamar sulking when adversity hits. It absolutely is what separates him from Gonzalez who was a more gifted player than kelce on a number of levels. I don’t know that there has ever in chiefs history been a better example of a player who plays every damn snap the right way than kelce. He does it with ability, intelligence and max effort. And I don’t know that there’s ever been a player who wants to win more then kelce, and that’s putting him up against mahomes who is insanely competitive.

In the end, that’s why kelce - a guy who isn’t as physically gifted as some of the all time great TEs including in his own teams history - still belongs in the conversation of all time greatest.

This was the post that started it all.. lol

I honestly don't understand how you can look at this post and argue against it:

OK, so apparently I do need to show the stats before and after Mahomes lol..

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

Four games total. 294 yards and 1 TD. 1-3 record. One Wild Card Round win. Never made it past the Divisional Round.

Kelce in four seasons with Mahomes:

Eleven games total. 997 yards and 11 TDs. 8-3 record. One Super Bowl win. Never failed to advance to at least the AFC Championship game.

This isn't about some bullshit like leadership. It's about opportunity.

The difference between the 2003 Chiefs squad and the 2019 squad winning/not winning the Super Bowl did not come down to the difference in TG and TK's leadership style.

A great deal of this sport is about opportunity. There's just no way around it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Which was why I attempted to discuss Witten as a reasonable proxy. And he really is - it's startling how similar their careers were and during a period that largely overlaps...

Yet NOBODY on this board would ever say that Kelce and Witten are in the same league. And the difference in that reaction is not because TG was about 10% better than Witten over a 270 game sample size.

Tony was the face of the franchise for a decade. And at that TIME he was universally beloved. So while you say that people are giving Kelce too much credit due to team accomplishments - I think there's an argument to make that putting TG in the same tier in terms of Kelce when discussing their respective peaks is given TG too much credit without acknowledging his faults. If he were that much more dangerous than his contemporaries, you'd think he'd have smoked Witten's career numbers, no?

Yet here we are. 8 yards/gm over Witten. 1/2 a catch/gm. 2 TDs/yr. Added value, sure - but enough to really let him hang with Kelce? I just don't see it.

I don’t think in the end gonzalez is nearly on the same tier when it comes to GOAT. Again, I believe he was exceptionally gifted as an athlete and way more than you give him credit for. But in the end I believe it’s kelce and gronk. Gonzo in the next tier with witten with maybe Antonio gates hanging in there, If you only focus on his prime. And while i like my guy way more I think aside from durability anyone lobbying for gronk has a solid enough case.

[chiefzilla1501]

This was the post that started it all.. lol

I honestly don't understand how you can look at this post and argue against it:



The difference between the 2003 Chiefs squad and the 2019 squad winning/not winning the Super Bowl did not come down to the difference in TG and TK's leadership style.

A great deal of this sport is about opportunity. There's just no way around it.

Leadership is a soft factor. It is not the only factor. It is also about knowing when to use your skills for what purpose. I still stand behind kelces comparison to jerry rice. There are so many things he did that transcended pure athleticism. A ton of his production was late in games because his workout endurance was off the charts. He had elite athleticism to change direction but that is all set up by an insane understanding of selling his routes and going exactly where he needed to be. He had tremendous burst off the line but also an impeccable snap timing. And then theres the ability to catch almost literally every ball remotely in his area. Much of this is driven by intangibles and feel for the game that add a TON of juice to natural god given athleticism.

I think TG would have excelled under mahomes. But I also don’t know that he brings the same intangibles to the table. Kelce has an uncanny understanding of where to be and the best way to get there. Which is tremendous for a team that so often goes off script. How many times have we seen the two on a page where you’re like… how the fuck did they both know to do that? He also gets abused like no other player in the league in terms of defenses hacking the shit out of him but he keeps grinding at it. His attitude is off the charts. That’s on top of being a tremendous teammate. So yeah when comparing two guys who are both exceptional athletes, I’ll take the guy who has a way better feel for the position any day of the week.

[DJ's left nut]

This was the post that started it all.. lol

I honestly don't understand how you can look at this post and argue against it:


But by trying to argue that we can't talk about what Tony Gonzalez didn't do in the post-season you're tacitcly arguing that we also can't talk about what Travis Kelce has done in the postseason.

And if you want to play the 'what if' games (which again, I don't care for doing; just too speculative), 'what if' Travis Kelce doesn't get pulled for the concussion protocol that didn't exist in TG's era? The Titans had no answers for him and the key play in that game was Orson Charles dropping a 1st down that would've iced the game that hit him right between the numbers.

Suddenly Kelce is 2-2 w/ 350ish yards in 4 games - right in line with his career post-season averages.

Again - Travis Kelce has historically raised his level of performance in the post-season whereas Gonzalez has seen his post-season performance decline from his regular season standards.

Of course opportunity matters, but Kelce's been a person who has consistently risen to the level of the challenge in the post-season. Tony Gonzalez, relative to his OWN standards, simply hasn't. That's gotta be relevant.

To try to say "Well Kelce has Mahomes..." is almost as insulting as saying "Well Mahomes had Hill..."

Kelce, prior to Mahomes, had 1 game where he wasn't outstanding and it has another 'what if' element to it - 'what if' Maclin hadn't mangled his knee and Bill Belichick wasn't content triple-teaming Kelce and letting Albert Wilson and Jason Avant beat him. I mean Gonzalez at least had Rison (in his odd comeback season) and Eddie Kennison (criminally underrated) keeping defenses a bit more honest in those playoff games.

In the end, you've gotta give credit for what was actually done. And what Kelce has done in the post-season has been nothing short of spectacular.

[Chris Meck]

They're totally different.

Gonzales was a 'post up' kind of TE. Kelce is like a huge WR, and a YAC machine.

Kelce gets knocked for not blocking, but he's fine at that when asked, he's just not asked all that often.

It's just totally different.

[DJ's left nut]

They're totally different.

Gonzales was a 'post up' kind of TE. Kelce is like a huge WR, and a YAC machine.

Kelce gets knocked for not blocking, but he's fine at that when asked, he's just not asked all that often.

It's just totally different.

I think Kelce could be who Gonzalez was. He has the frame and the fearlessness to do it.

I don't think TG can be who Travis Kelce is.

To me that's the major point of distinction. Kelce is capable of more (because again: Better athlete, which is how we got here in the first place) and as such that versatility makes him a harder post-season matchup and more critical 'gotta have it' player.

Yeah - they're different. But that doesn't stop me from saying I'd take one over the other without hesitation. I'd simply take Kelce 100 times out of 100.

[ThaVirus]

But by trying to argue that we can't talk about what Tony Gonzalez didn't do in the post-season you're tacitcly arguing that we also can't talk about what Travis Kelce has done in the postseason.

And if you want to play the 'what if' games (which again, I don't care for doing; just too speculative), 'what if' Travis Kelce doesn't get pulled for the concussion protocol that didn't exist in TG's era? The Titans had no answers for him and the key play in that game was Orson Charles dropping a 1st down that would've iced the game that hit him right between the numbers.

Suddenly Kelce is 2-2 w/ 350ish yards in 4 games - right in line with his career post-season averages.

Again - Travis Kelce has historically raised his level of performance in the post-season whereas Gonzalez has seen his post-season performance decline from his regular season standards.

Of course opportunity matters, but Kelce's been a person who has consistently risen to the level of the challenge in the post-season. Tony Gonzalez, relative to his OWN standards, simply hasn't. That's gotta be relevant.

To try to say "Well Kelce has Mahomes..." is almost as insulting as saying "Well Mahomes had Hill..."

Kelce, prior to Mahomes, had 1 game where he wasn't outstanding and it has another 'what if' element to it - 'what if' Maclin hadn't mangled his knee and Bill Belichick wasn't content triple-teaming Kelce and letting Albert Wilson and Jason Avant beat him. I mean Gonzalez at least had Rison (in his odd comeback season) and Eddie Kennison (criminally underrated) keeping defenses a bit more honest in those playoff games.

In the end, you've gotta give credit for what was actually done. And what Kelce has done in the post-season has been nothing short of spectacular.

Kelce has been incredible in the postseason. He only needs 152 yards to pass Julian Edelman and slide into #2 all-time behind Jerry Rice.

I'm all for giving Kelce praise for what he's accomplished; I am just not OK with putting Gonzalez down for not enjoying the same success. You can argue that he didn't elevate his play in the postseason but the stats show that Kelce really didn't either before Mahomes came to town.

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

Averaged 73 yards and 0.25 TDs per game.

Kelce in four seasons with Mahomes:

Averages 90 yards and 1 TD per game.

I mean, that is a significant difference. If Kelce isn't lucky enough to be on the team that drafts Patrick Mahomes, it's possible that we're all in this thread saying "Yeah, he's definitely a Hall of Fame talent but just never put up the numbers in the postseason to put him above Gronk, Gonzalez, etc."

[DJ's left nut]

Kelce has been incredible in the postseason. He only needs 152 yards to pass Julian Edelman and slide into #2 all-time behind Jerry Rice.

I'm all for giving Kelce praise for what he's accomplished; I am just not OK with putting Gonzalez down for not enjoying the same success. You can argue that he didn't elevate his play in the postseason but the stats show that Kelce really didn't either before Mahomes came to town.

Kelce in the four seasons prior to Mahomes:

Averaged 73 yards and 0.25 TDs per game.

Kelce in four seasons with Mahomes:

Averages 90 yards and 1 TD per game.

I mean, that is a significant difference. If Kelce isn't lucky enough to be on the team that drafts Patrick Mahomes, it's possible that we're all in this thread saying "Yeah, he's definitely a Hall of Fame talent but just never put up the numbers in the postseason to put him above Gronk, Gonzalez, etc."

But again - just give Kelce the same pace he had in the first half before his concussion. Or just pro-rate the 'per game' stats for the lost half of football (that's hugely relevant when we're talking a 4-game sample size).

Then suddenly he's at 88 yards/gm. It's close enough to the 90 yards/gm he's put up with Mahomes to say that there's not an appreciable difference, especially when you account for simple development that comes with a young player getting better and more experienced.

Travis Kelce was DAMN good in the post-season even before Mahomes hit the scene. I just don't see anything to suggest otherwise.

[chiefzilla1501]

Interestingly i think gonzo is a better fit for Alex smith and kelce is a better fit for mahomes

[ThaVirus]

But again - just give Kelce the same pace he had in the first half before his concussion. Or just pro-rate the 'per game' stats for the lost half of football (that's hugely relevant when we're talking a 4-game sample size).

Then suddenly he's at 88 yards/gm. It's close enough to the 90 yards/gm he's put up with Mahomes to say that there's not an appreciable difference, especially when you account for simple development that comes with a young player getting better and more experienced.

Travis Kelce was DAMN good in the post-season even before Mahomes hit the scene. I just don't see anything to suggest otherwise.

Sorry, I misspoke. I should not have said that Kelce didn't elevate his game in the postseason before Mahomes; I should have said the stats don't bear that out.

Giving you the prorated yardage for missing an entire half of the Titans game, there is still a pretty significant discrepancy in TDs. You're talking about 1 TD scored in four playoff games pre-Mahomes compared to 11 TDs scored in eleven contests with Mahomes. And that matches a 1-3 record with Alex that shifted to 8-3 with Mahomes.

It's still more about opportunity. I don't think there's an appreciable difference between Kelce circa 2016 and Kelce circa 2019, he just got more opportunities to shine.

[tredadda]

Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

How often did Marino have the defenses that Brady had? Not trying to say Brady isn’t good or a HOF, but how many SBs does he win without top 10 defenses (I can name 4 without even trying)?

[DJ's left nut]

Interestingly i think gonzo is a better fit for Alex smith and kelce is a better fit for mahomes

Gonzo was, perhaps ironically, the best imaginable fit for some of his worst QBs. He's not unlike Bowe/Cassel in that regard.

TG would've been a nice fit for Smith but remember, if Smith didn't see a pretty good window, he'd tuck and run. In some ways you need a kinda shitty/stupid QB to take full advantage of what TG did, which was just muscle the ball away from guys.

Or in the alternative, a guy who simply didn't miss a window over the middle. Wanna talk about 'what if' scenarios - don't give me TG/Mahomes - give me TG/Brady. As good as Brady/Gronk were, Brady/Gonzalez would've been better. Brady's placement on that seam shot and his ability to make the right read and fire on time would've been PERFECT for Gonzalez's style of play.

[DJ's left nut]

Sorry, I misspoke. I should not have said that Kelce didn't elevate his game in the postseason before Mahomes; I should have said the stats don't bear that out.

Giving you the prorated yardage for missing an entire half of the Titans game, there is still a pretty significant discrepancy in TDs. You're talking about 1 TD scored in four playoff games pre-Mahomes compared to 11 TDs scored in eleven contests with Mahomes. And that matches a 1-3 record with Alex that shifted to 8-3 with Mahomes.

It's still more about opportunity. I don't think there's an appreciable difference between Kelce circa 2016 and Kelce circa 2019, he just got more opportunities to shine.

Trying to boil down a 4 game sample size to touchdowns/gm is a pretty wonky way to go about it. Especially when, again, his TD rate wouldn't be THAT far off his regular season rates under Smith. 22 touchdowns in 63 games under Smith is 1 score every 2.8 games vs. 1 score in 3.5 games in the post-season. And again, that score came in the half against the Titans where he was going to EAT as that game went along. There was every reason to believe he'd have put up another in the 2nd half and now that stat gets flipped on its head as well.

The sample size is just awfully small here and when you see that he actually increased his yards/gm (again, providing that you're pro-rating) I just have a hard time saying that he wasn't elevating his game in the post-season even before Mahomes got on the scene.

He's just always been a big game player and that was BEFORE Mahomes got here. Now what Mahomes did was turn him up to 11, but he was at 10 before PM was his triggerman.

[DJ's left nut]

Is there a way to find splits by QB?

Now I'm curious - because I kinda feel like Tony was probably at his best with some turtling chickinshit like Damon Huard under center.

"Oh shit, this game is going so fast! Who'sopenwho'sopenwho'sopen....AAAAAAAGHHHH!!!"

{slings it in TG's general direction and prays}

[ThaVirus]

Trying to boil down a 4 game sample size to touchdowns/gm is a pretty wonky way to go about it. Especially when, again, his TD rate wouldn't be THAT far off his regular season rates under Smith. 22 touchdowns in 63 games under Smith is 1 score every 2.8 games vs. 1 score in 3.5 games in the post-season. And again, that score came in the half against the Titans where he was going to EAT as that game went along. There was every reason to believe he'd have put up another in the 2nd half and now that stat gets flipped on its head as well.

The sample size is just awfully small here and when you see that he actually increased his yards/gm (again, providing that you're pro-rating) I just have a hard time saying that he wasn't elevating his game in the post-season even before Mahomes got on the scene.

He's just always been a big game player and that was BEFORE Mahomes got here. Now what Mahomes did was turn him up to 11, but he was at 10 before PM was his triggerman.

It is a small sample size and I think that strengthens my argument.

I had been arguing with chiefzilla, among others, about opportunity in the NFL. I believe Kelce is a good example, and the small sample size bears it out (is it bears it out or bares it out?). Kelce circa 2015, 2016 vs Kelce circa 2019, 2020. I don't believe there was an appreciable difference. The major difference between them is opportunity.

2015 Kelce was saddled with a gaping vagina QB who refused to let his nuts hang. We played not to lose and it resulted in losses against the big dawgs in the postseason.

Then, in comes our chocolatey-dicked biracial angel and BAM. All of a sudden we're winning 3/4ths of the postseason games we play, which creates more opportunities for Kelce, who hasn't changed a ton, to shine.

[DJ's left nut]

It is a small sample size and I think that strengthens my argument.

I had been arguing with chiefzilla, among others, about opportunity in the NFL. I believe Kelce is a good example, and the small sample size bears it out (is it bears it out or bares it out?). Kelce circa 2015, 2016 vs Kelce circa 2019, 2020. I don't believe there was an appreciable difference. The major difference between them is opportunity.

2015 Kelce was saddled with a gaping vagina QB who refused to let his nuts hang. We played not to lose and it resulted in losses against the big dawgs in the postseason.

Then, in comes our chocolatey-dicked biracial angel and BAM. All of a sudden we're winning 3/4ths of the postseason games we play, which creates more opportunities for Kelce, who hasn't changed a ton, to shine.

I don't either.

That's precisely my point - I think he was an ass-kicker in the post-season BEFORE Patrick Mahomes came along. He'd developed into a horse even with Alex Smith under center. He hadn't risen to national prominence yet because we were always that team that showed up to be the bit players in someone else's story.

But he never failed to do his part. He never failed to raise his level of play.

I think that's a lot harder argument to make in re: Tony Gonzalez. You can attempt to say that he didn't get the number of opportunities - sure. But you can't say he met/exceeded his ordinary standard when he DID get his shot.

[dirk digler]

What is interesting about Kelce is I bet you could go back in the archives and find people wanting him gone because of his attitude and his bone headed plays. Maybe I will do a search and hope that I wasn't one of them :D

[chiefzilla1501]

Gonzo was, perhaps ironically, the best imaginable fit for some of his worst QBs. He's not unlike Bowe/Cassel in that regard.

TG would've been a nice fit for Smith but remember, if Smith didn't see a pretty good window, he'd tuck and run. In some ways you need a kinda shitty/stupid QB to take full advantage of what TG did, which was just muscle the ball away from guys.

Or in the alternative, a guy who simply didn't miss a window over the middle. Wanna talk about 'what if' scenarios - don't give me TG/Mahomes - give me TG/Brady. As good as Brady/Gronk were, Brady/Gonzalez would've been better. Brady's placement on that seam shot and his ability to make the right read and fire on time would've been PERFECT for Gonzalez's style of play.

I agree. Mahomes doesn’t use the jump ball as much as other qbs do. I could see Alex using that quite a bit as a checkdown option. Chucking it up where only he can get is safer than threading a tight needle. Same reason I don’t think gonzo could improvise the way kelce does. I’d imagine kelce would be especially lethal for a lot of these fast break offenses out there especially with how exceptional he is when playing out of structure. And I would agree he’s way more suitable for YAC although gonzalez was an absolute truck to tackle.

Either TE would have excelled with either qb but at the least we can celebrate that the right TE came at the right time for the right QB.

[chiefzilla1501]

How often did Marino have the defenses that Brady had? Not trying to say Brady isn’t good or a HOF, but how many SBs does he win without top 10 defenses (I can name 4 without even trying)?

I think these are the kinds of arguments that lead to guys like Justin Herbert and matthew Stafford getting overhyped. I would absolutely take Montana and Brady over marino. I know they had way better talent to work with but having wxceptional ability and stats doesn’t always translate into wins. I think marino falls into the rivers and Herbert category of exceptionally talented qbs who just can’t seem to win when it counts. There is no guarantee that Marino wins big games with a better supporting cast.

[Megatron96]

I think these are the kinds of arguments that lead to guys like Justin Herbert and matthew Stafford getting overhyped. I would absolutely take Montana and Brady over marino. I know they had way better talent to work with but having wxceptional ability and stats doesn’t always translate into wins. I think marino falls into the rivers and Herbert category of exceptionally talented qbs who just can’t seem to win when it counts. There is no guarantee that Marino wins big games with a better supporting cast.

Marino was saddled with a couple truly atrocious defenses, iirc. At least one for sure for at least 3-4 years. He was doing the Manning thing before Payton did it. Trying to score piles upon piles of points because his defense couldn't stuff a runny nose. Also trying to extend drives just to keep his own defense off the field.

And in those days, everyone ran the piss out of the ball compared to how the league runs today, so MIA's defense was getting gangraped on the ground much more so than through the air.

Tangent: the way the rules are enforced these days in the passing game, there's really no such thing as a shutdown CB, much less a shutdown secondary. The rules are just too slanted in the favor of the offense. Heck, Wilson practically earned himself that first extension just by throwing those high-arching passes that drew flag after flag because the refs were going to call any contact by the DB vs. the WR. That's why Russ would have stat lines after a lot of games where he threw for <200 yds (maaaybe), but the team would score 30+ points or whatever. He was adept at chucking 50/50 balls to the EZ, forcing the DB to commit DPI, and boom, SEA gets a free 1st down on the 2.

So, we can forget the idea of ever having a shutdown secondary. We really want smart, sticky, and well-coached. make it as difficult as possible to get chunk plays and take away the run. But stopping a modern passing attack is the myth in 2022 and beyond. Check the league's best secondaries; no one is shutting down anyone these days, unless either the QB and/or the OC are just flat incompetent.

[Ecto-I]

Something funny I just noticed whilst watching the crazy Patrick to CEH play. You'll notice Kelce sort of start walking away the opposite direction before Patrick has even thrown the ball.

What do you think is going on here? Did he think Patty was sacked? I can't quite figure it out.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="tl" dir="ltr">MAHOMES MAGIC 😱<br><br>(via <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a>)<a href="https://t.co/rui7JHSa0s">pic.twitter.com/rui7JHSa0s</a></p>&mdash; SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/1576741403559763970?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Imon Yourside]

What is interesting about Kelce is I bet you could go back in the archives and find people wanting him gone because of his attitude and his bone headed plays. Maybe I will do a search and hope that I wasn't one of them :D

I loved Kelces boneheaded plays, because he stated what we all felt as Chief fans!

[MAHOMO 4 LIFE!]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Travis Kelce turns 33 in a couple hours. Through four weeks, he has 61 more receiving yards than any other tight end. He&#39;s tied for first among TEs with 26 catches. He&#39;s still the highest-graded TE in football, per <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a>. He leads <a href="https://twitter.com/fboutsiders?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@fboutsiders</a> DYAR and Effective Yards by a mile.</p>&mdash; Sam McDowell (@SamMcDowell11) <a href="https://twitter.com/SamMcDowell11/status/1577492161108516866?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 5, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[MAHOMO 4 LIFE!]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Travis Kelce turns 33 in a couple hours. Through four weeks, he has 61 more receiving yards than any other tight end. He&#39;s tied for first among TEs with 26 catches. He&#39;s still the highest-graded TE in football, per <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a>. He leads <a href="https://twitter.com/fboutsiders?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@fboutsiders</a> DYAR and Effective Yards by a mile.</p>&mdash; Sam McDowell (@SamMcDowell11) <a href="https://twitter.com/SamMcDowell11/status/1577492161108516866?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 5, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[DJ's left nut]

What is interesting about Kelce is I bet you could go back in the archives and find people wanting him gone because of his attitude and his bone headed plays. Maybe I will do a search and hope that I wasn't one of them :D

It's interesting, but just looking back in threads I was involved in, there was a consensus building as early as pre-season 2015 that Travis Kelce may be the most important offensive weapon on the team.

He'd played for 1 year at that point. He hadn't even broken out yet.

Sometimes CP knows our shit. That fascinates the hell out of me.

[Marcellus]

It may have been mentioned earlier but as far as blocking goes, at this point I don't want Kelce sacrificing his body to block much these days, he is way too valuable to burn those snaps. Kelce already takes a ton of hits catching the ball. He is a tough son of a bitch but no need to push the luck having him block DE's on run plays.

[ThaVirus]

I've noticed Kelce does a good job of protecting himself while blocking. You don't see him sacrificing his every fiber going up against a DE very often like that dipshit caveman Kittle. I say that with respect 'cause Kittle's a dawg, but he would contribute so much more if he didn't revel in contact in the trenches so much.

It seems Kelce has noted that and we're better for it.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Soak it in. Because sadly it won't last forever.

They broke the mold when they made this cat. We are truly blessed to have him on our side. One of the best NFL players in the history of the league, and seemingly an even better dude.

[jonzie04]

Been really cool to watch him mature over the years. I remember him getting tons of dumb ass unsportsmanlike penalties, and his fumbling problems early on. He was still great then, just even greater now.

[Hammock Parties]

Travis Kelce is on pace for 112 receptions, 1,179 yards receiving and 24 TD.

[tk13]

Shattered a record tonight. This might actually be hard to beat.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Travis Kelce finished with 4 TDs and 25 yards tonight<br><br>Next fewest yards in a game with 4 receiving TDs: 93, per <a href="https://twitter.com/Stathead?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Stathead</a> <a href="https://t.co/iyHXAaQI0s">pic.twitter.com/iyHXAaQI0s</a></p>&mdash; Lev Akabas (@LevAkabas) <a href="https://twitter.com/LevAkabas/status/1579677625458765825?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 11, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[lcarus]

This guy is my hero. I was ahead by 25 in my game tonight and I was going against Carr and Jacobs but I still had one ace in my sleeve and that was Travis Kelce. I ended up winning by 1 point. I needed every one of those 4 TDs to survive Carr plus Jacobs having a career fucking night.

[SupDock]

Shattered a record tonight. This might actually be hard to beat.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Travis Kelce finished with 4 TDs and 25 yards tonight<br><br>Next fewest yards in a game with 4 receiving TDs: 93, per <a href="https://twitter.com/Stathead?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Stathead</a> <a href="https://t.co/iyHXAaQI0s">pic.twitter.com/iyHXAaQI0s</a></p>&mdash; Lev Akabas (@LevAkabas) <a href="https://twitter.com/LevAkabas/status/1579677625458765825?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 11, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
This seems nearly unbeatable

[Ming the Merciless]

cementing his huge balls


this is me , working on my masterpiece


"Kelce's Huge Balls"


https://i.postimg.cc/SsNdKYmk/balls.jpg

[Hammock Parties]

lmao...so now kelce is getting the tyreek treatment and the deep stuff opens up LMAO

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Last night was the first time I truly saw the <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@chiefs</a> will be just fine without Tyreek because <a href="https://twitter.com/tkelce?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@tkelce</a> is “The Key” still.<a href="https://twitter.com/ArrowheadPride?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@arrowheadpride</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/ByNateTaylor?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@bynatetaylor</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/adamteicher?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@adamteicher</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/nfllive?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#nfllive</a> <a href="https://t.co/aa3jUITuDV">pic.twitter.com/aa3jUITuDV</a></p>&mdash; Dan Orlovsky (@danorlovsky7) <a href="https://twitter.com/danorlovsky7/status/1579940321647009793?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 11, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[BigRedChief]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Travis Kelce now has more fantasy points than Tyreek Hill this season. 🔥🔥</p>&mdash; Mike Clay (@MikeClayNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeClayNFL/status/1579659795464073216?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 11, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[dlphg9]

It's so incredible that we had Tony G (ex-GOAT TE) for so many years and it only took us a few years after he left to find us a guy that's taken his place as GOAT TE.

That means the Chiefs have had the GOAT TE on their roster for 22 out of the last 26 years. That's pretty incredible.

[DJ's left nut]

It's so incredible that we had Tony G (ex-GOAT TE) for so many years and it only took us a few years after he left to find us a guy that's taken his place as GOAT TE.

That means the Chiefs have had the GOAT TE on their roster for 22 out of the last 26 years. That's pretty incredible.

Going from Priest to LJ to Charles was also pretty incredible.

Going all the way back to the KC Star Board and the King Carl days, there were two camps of Chiefs fans. There was the '3 yards and a cloud of dust, win with defense, a running game and a safe QB' crowd and the 'Carl needs to get us a franchise QB or it's all for naught' crowd.

I'd say it's fairly clear who had the correct answer at this point. There were some truly incredible careers in KC (Shields and DT also in this group) that were just wasted by bad organizational philosophy.

G'damn Andy Reid did a lot for this franchise.

[O.city]

Going from Priest to LJ to Charles was also pretty incredible.

Going all the way back to the KC Star Board and the King Carl days, there were two camps of Chiefs fans. There was the '3 yards and a cloud of dust, win with defense, a running game and a safe QB' crowd and the 'Carl needs to get us a franchise QB or it's all for naught' crowd.

I'd say it's fairly clear who had the correct answer at this point. There were some truly incredible careers in KC (Shields and DT also in this group) that were just wasted by bad organizational philosophy.

G'damn Andy Reid did a lot for this franchise.

Is there anywhere I can find Andy's salary? I have looked around and can't really find anything solid on it.

It's gotta be one of the top 2 or 3 highest paid right? I mean, it's obviously worth it.

[KChiefs1]

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[In58men]

The Chiefs have restructured the contract of All Pro TE Travis Kelce, converting base salary into a signing bonus to clear $3.455M in cap space, per source

[OKchiefs]

The Chiefs have restructured the contract of All Pro TE Travis Kelce, converting base salary into a signing bonus to clear $3.455M in cap space, per source

Making room for someone?

[PHOG]

The Chiefs have restructured the contract of All Pro TE Travis Kelce, converting base salary into a signing bonus to clear $3.455M in cap space, per source

Hmmm interesting.

[KChiefs1]

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[Hammock Parties]

GOAT

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfdJjf0WQAA-liA?format=jpg&name=large

[DJ's left nut]

Imagine how good he'd be if he were an elite athlete...

[HayWire]

Is there anywhere I can find Andy's salary? I have looked around and can't really find anything solid on it.

It's gotta be one of the top 2 or 3 highest paid right? I mean, it's obviously worth it.

8. Andy Reid, Kansas City Chiefs, $8 million per year
Andy Reid, or sometimes affectionately called Big Red, has been an NFL head coach for 24 years, but it wasn’t until he got to the Kansas City Chiefs with Patrick Mahomes that he won the big game, becoming a Super Bowl champion in 2019. He also won AP Coach of the Year back in his fourth season with the Philadelphia Eagles in 2002.

This has him at 8.

https://sportsnaut.com/highest-paid-nfl-coach/

[Megatron96]

Travis is on pace for a mythical season. Of course, I'm not suggesting he's going to go for 1400 yds and 21 TDs, etc. etc., but he's on pace for a special season. Again.

[Hammock Parties]

ring the bell

https://i.imgur.com/NLXCxpz.gif

[KChiefs1]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221120/5987f1d3e6ff3f12826955f28eab812f.jpg

[tredadda]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221120/5987f1d3e6ff3f12826955f28eab812f.jpg

Very nice. Barring injuries he overtakes Sharpe this year and is a couple of years from overtaking Gates. Would love to see him retire as the all time leader in yards and TDs for a TE.

[lewdog]

Going to be hard to catch Tony G but he should get Witten before he's done.

[tredadda]

I think these are the kinds of arguments that lead to guys like Justin Herbert and matthew Stafford getting overhyped. I would absolutely take Montana and Brady over marino. I know they had way better talent to work with but having wxceptional ability and stats doesn’t always translate into wins. I think marino falls into the rivers and Herbert category of exceptionally talented qbs who just can’t seem to win when it counts. There is no guarantee that Marino wins big games with a better supporting cast.

You clearly give Brady far too much credit for some of those SB wins. Does he even get a chance to beat Mahomes in the SB if his defense doesn’t bail him out all playoffs because he was terrible. Is he good? Yes. Is he a HOF? Yes. Is he the best QB of all time and the sole reason why he has 7 rings? No.

[Bowser]

He's gonna crack 10K by the time the season is done.

[tredadda]

Going to be hard to catch Tony G but he should get Witten before he's done.

That is true. Would be nice to pass TG. Looking at TDs he would need another 51 to catch Gates. That probably won’t happen.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221120/5987f1d3e6ff3f12826955f28eab812f.jpg

All top 5 TEs on that list played in the AFC West at one point.

Thanks to Gruden signing Witten for that year of 13 catches for 73 yards.

[Halfcan]

Travis will finish in the top spot.

[Infidel Goat]

Kelce will probably pass Sharpe on December 4th against the Bengals, but it would be sweeter to do it at Denver the following week.

[FlaChief58]

Travis will finish in the top spot.

He would need 5 more 1000 yard seasons to surpass Tony. I love Kelce and want him to break all the records, but I don't think he'll get there. Still, he'll be a first ballot inductee

[ThaVirus]

Kelce's going to need 5,000+ yards and 50+ TDs to take the top spots. He's 33.

Highly, highly, highly doubt he takes the top spot for either, though the TDs will be particularly difficult.

[notorious]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TtYA0VQGBLM" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He looks pretty good in his college highlight reel, but my goodness he has improved by massive leaps and bounds.

He appears MORE explosive compared to NFL talent. Unreal.

My favorite Chief All-Time.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Soak in every second of it Chiefs fans. He's the GOAT

[the steam]

Kelce should be considered for league MVP, I don't care what position he plays

[MAHOMO 4 LIFE!]

Kelce should be considered for league MVP, I don't care what position he plays

Kelce is your offensive player of the year, not even close tbh