Gearheads: 4/AWD or snow tires?

[Discuss Thrower]

What's the more cost effective solution to driving in the winter?

[TribalElder]

snow tires + awd

[Bugeater]

4WD is worth every penny it costs.

[frozenchief]

There's a difference between 4WD and AWD systems. AWD systems are run via computer and there's generally power going to all 4 wheels, but the amount of power can vary based upon road conditions. it also helps with cornering and other matters. So AWD is generally better than 4WD if your primary driving is on the street.

4WD, though, is great for snow and I would get 4WD on my vehicle as opposed to keeping a 2WD vehicle. I certainly would get a 4WD truck. I do not understand why someone would buy a 2WD truck.

Snow tires offer some benefits over rain tires but snow tires by themselves would not be my first choice. A few years ago, we were going to visit family in eastern Washington over holidays. A 4WD cost $2K for a week, which I really did not want to spend. So I got front wheel drive. We ran into some snow and had a really hard time going. I found a different rental company that had a 4WD for a lot less than I could otherwise find. Made all the difference in the world.

[Buehler445]

There's a difference between 4WD and AWD systems. AWD systems are run via computer and there's generally power going to all 4 wheels, but the amount of power can vary based upon road conditions. it also helps with cornering and other matters. So AWD is generally better than 4WD if your primary driving is on the street.

4WD, though, is great for snow and I would get 4WD on my vehicle as opposed to keeping a 2WD vehicle. I certainly would get a 4WD truck. I do not understand why someone would buy a 2WD truck.

Snow tires offer some benefits over rain tires but snow tires by themselves would not be my first choice. A few years ago, we were going to visit family in eastern Washington over holidays. A 4WD cost $2K for a week, which I really did not want to spend. So I got front wheel drive. We ran into some snow and had a really hard time going. I found a different rental company that had a 4WD for a lot less than I could otherwise find. Made all the difference in the world.

We only had 1 4X4 on the farm when I was growing up and the rest were 2X4.

2x4 isn't bad in most instances,snow/ice would be the time it is, but the ass end can't be empty and you have to have some pretty good tires. But overall we didn't have much trouble with 2X4 pickups. That and back when, the 4X4 ones turned all the time and really bled a lot of power, even when they weren't locked in.

That being said, they're all 4X4 now.

But yeah 2X4 on slick is a clusterfuck from fucking fuck.

[notorious]

4WD

Disable traction control if you know how to drive. That bullshit has nearly gotten me stuck dozens of times.

[limested]

There's a difference between 4WD and AWD systems. AWD systems are run via computer and there's generally power going to all 4 wheels, but the amount of power can vary based upon road conditions. it also helps with cornering and other matters. So AWD is generally better than 4WD if your primary driving is on the street.

4WD, though, is great for snow and I would get 4WD on my vehicle as opposed to keeping a 2WD vehicle. I certainly would get a 4WD truck. I do not understand why someone would buy a 2WD truck.

Snow tires offer some benefits over rain tires but snow tires by themselves would not be my first choice. A few years ago, we were going to visit family in eastern Washington over holidays. A 4WD cost $2K for a week, which I really did not want to spend. So I got front wheel drive. We ran into some snow and had a really hard time going. I found a different rental company that had a 4WD for a lot less than I could otherwise find. Made all the difference in the world.
not quite accurate but close.

[suzzer99]

4WD with all terrain tires ftw.

https://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bfg/bfg_attako2_pdpcrop.jpg

[Buehler445]

4WD

Disable traction control if you know how to drive. That bullshit has nearly gotten me stuck dozens of times.

LOL Yeah, that's a joke. Dad had a pickup that you could shut it off, and it would flash up that it's off, and then it would continue to not send power anywhere.

[neech]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Ei-EeDQyDS0?controls=0&amp;start=2" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[notorious]

LOL Yeah, that's a joke. Dad had a pickup that you could shut it off, and it would flash up that it's off, and then it would continue to not send power anywhere.

LMAO

I've damn near ripped the button out of the dash when traction control decides to fuck me while driving through deep mud.

Starting checklist for Notorious:

1. Turn key to start
2. Turn off traction control
3. Everything else

[Megatron96]

Where are you driving? In relatively flat country, snow tires alone will probably do it.

If you're driving in the mountains or hilly country, 4WD with snow tires are the way to go.

[Shiver Me Timbers]

snow tires + awd

^ this

[T-post Tom]

Team of Alaskan Malamutes. :)

[Bearcat]

I could be completely wrong, but I think of AWS as more of a performance option than safety option. Great for getting started and accelerating out of turns when in the snow, but not sure it's really going to help otherwise.

Snow tires will help with braking as well... they're more of a safety thing.


My last two cars....
Summer tires + FWD... terrible getting traction in the snow.

All season tires + AWD... love it, but haven't had any 'oh shit' moments where I could say snow tires may or may not have been any better.

[Frosty]

A few years ago, we were going to visit family in eastern Washington over holidays.

Hey, that's where I live. :thumb:

I have experience with both setups here. My wife had a FWD Honda CR-V for years. We put snow tires all around and, for the most part, it was fine. She could get around okay most of the time. The problem was on hills. Going uphill would unload the front tires and she would lose traction. There is a long ass hill just off of our road and she would frequently get stuck trying to get out onto the hill through the berm the snow plows left.

On the other hand, I drive a similar size Forester that is full time, 50/50 AWD and the difference is night and day. I put snow tires on it too and it goes anywhere. I've been through some pretty deep snow and had zero issues.

We lost the CR-V to a deer this last summer and she now has a AWD Honda HR-V with snow tires. We haven't had a lot of snow yet but the one morning that we had 3 or 4 inches of snow overnight, she was pretty impressed with how it got out onto the highway..

I do not understand why someone would buy a 2WD truck.

I bought a 2016 Frontier that is 2wd. It was $6000 cheaper than the equivalent 4wd and gets better mileage. I got it to move my boys back and forth to college and for projects around the house. It's been a great vehicle so far. I solved the snow issue by not driving it in the winter. However, I think with some weight in the back and snow tires, it would actually do pretty well. It has a limited slip rear end and gets around in the snow okay when I've had to move it during the winter.

[frozenchief]

Hey, that's where I live. :thumb:

I have experience with both setups here. My wife had a FWD Honda CR-V for years. We put snow tires all around and, for the most part, it was fine. She could get around okay most of the time. The problem was on hills. Going uphill would unload the front tires and she would lose traction. There is a long ass hill just off of our road and she would frequently get stuck trying to get out onto the hill through the berm the snow plows left.

On the other hand, I drive a similar size Forester that is full time, 50/50 AWD and the difference is night and day. I put snow tires on it too and it goes anywhere. I've been through some pretty deep snow and had zero issues.

We lost the CR-V to a deer this last summer and she now has a AWD Honda HR-V with snow tires. We haven't had a lot of snow yet but the one morning that we had 3 or 4 inches of snow overnight, she was pretty impressed with how it got out onto the highway..



I bought a 2016 Frontier that is 2wd. It was $6000 cheaper than the equivalent 4wd and gets better mileage. I got it to move my boys back and forth to college and for projects around the house. It's been a great vehicle so far. I solved the snow issue by not driving it in the winter. However, I think with some weight in the back and snow tires, it would actually do pretty well. It has a limited slip rear end and gets around in the snow okay when I've had to move it during the winter.

Maybe the trick to owning a 2WD truck is to not live in a place where it's winter 7-8 months out of the year. :) I just know far too many people whose 2WD truck slides or gets stuck that I won't buy one.

I would say that after pickups/SUVs, the most common vehicle up here is some type of Forrester. I've heard nothing but good things about them. They have great AWD systems and go anywhere on the road in lots of snow.

[Frosty]

Maybe the trick to owning a 2WD truck is to not live in a place where it's winter 7-8 months out of the year. :)

I think too many of my dad's ideas rubbed off on me. He always insisted on 2wd pickups due to the better mileage even though he lived a big chunk of his life in eastern WA and Montana. He even had one when they lived in Fairbanks. LMAO

[tmax63]

In today's world the true need for 4WD/AWD is exceptionally rare. Road conditions aren't impassable in a 2WD vehicle for more than a few hours 99% of the time. I bought a Dakota 4x4 new in 1995 when I moved to the front range and I had to pull it back into 4WD several times a year just to keep things "limber" because I didn't need to use it often enough. To answer the OP, a 2WD vehicle and common sense are the cheapest, most economical solution but it can be used as an excuse to buy something you want.

[Naptown Chief]

Lowrider.
Air dam.
Profit.

Alternatively, duct taping a fat chick to the front of your car may be as effective.

[Naptown Chief]

I would say that after pickups/SUVs, the most common vehicle up here is some type of Forrester. I've heard nothing but good things about them. They have great AWD systems and go anywhere on the road in lots of snow.

I have an 04 Forester XT that I was STI swapping (from my 02 WRX that I swapped and was totaled) before a work injury. Man I loved that thing stock but will only be that much better when I'm capable of finishing it up. Blast to drive and have had zero issues driving in ANY weather, including a 24" blizzard we had January 2016*

[Buehler445]

I think too many of my dad's ideas rubbed off on me. He always insisted on 2wd pickups due to the better mileage even though he lived a big chunk of his life in eastern WA and Montana. He even had one when they lived in Fairbanks. LMAO

It made a legitimate difference in the 70s and 80s. After the 90s they keep getting better in terms of reliability and efficiency.

[Bwana]

snow tires + awd

Yep

[Hoover]

AWD and a good all season weather rated tire.

[TLO]

Here's a pro tip. A RWD car with no weight in the back will take you anywhere you want to go!

[TLO]

But honestly, I was pleasantly surprised with how my Charger handled the snow this past week. As long as I could get going, I was good. Getting moving was a bit of trouble, but nothing unmanageable.

Good tires make a world of difference.

[Shiver Me Timbers]

Kind of off topic but I bought a new 32" honda snow blower last week.
I did it for all the neighbors. Not to help them but spending 3k on something guarantees it will never be needed.

[TLO]

Kind of off topic but I bought a new 32" honda snow blower last week.
I did it for all the neighbors. Not to help them but spending 3k on something guarantees it will never be used

Feel free to travel to Missouri and try your luck on my driveway!

[Bugeater]

In today's world the true need for 4WD/AWD is exceptionally rare. Road conditions aren't impassable in a 2WD vehicle for more than a few hours 99% of the time. I bought a Dakota 4x4 new in 1995 when I moved to the front range and I had to pull it back into 4WD several times a year just to keep things "limber" because I didn't need to use it often enough. To answer the OP, a 2WD vehicle and common sense are the cheapest, most economical solution but it can be used as an excuse to buy something you want.

I suppose that's true if you live in a city where they actually fucking do something to neighborhood streets. There's already been at least a dozen days this winter that i wouldn't have been able to get out of my neighborhood in the morning in a 2WD vehicle. You'll have to pry my 4WD from my cold, dead hands.

[Imon Yourside]

My AWD gets around amazing with crappy tires, whereas snow tires on my fwd vehicles have been ok but if you get too much snow you need that extra clearance. I would love to remove/forget about/destroy spoilers forever!

This is not professional advice as i'm far from a gearhead but it works for me.

[srvy]

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EFF9E7/a-land-rover-four-wheel-drive-car-stuck-in-the-snow-in-tymfristos-EFF9E7.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b4c8df62f1c685e4b0315b5c1da3c2bc.webp

This
https://media0.giphy.com/media/Afw2tMIDyv8re/source.gif

[oldman]

Depends on what you consider "cost effective". We live in the country and while the county is pretty good about clearing the roads around our house and to the main roads, that's not the case in all areas. Having to get out of my warm and comfortable house, don winter gear, and head out to pick up a family member stuck waiting for a tow truck is pretty expensive in my book. Plus you don't have to have to change from snow tires to regular tires in the spring. I'm an old fat guy and I don't need that kind of hassle. We've had at least 1 AWD/4WD since we've lived here. When it's nasty, only the AWD goes anywhere. Being retired does have it's advantages.

[Discuss Thrower]

Bumping once for visibility.


To anyone who re-visits the thread and isn't located above the 49th Parallel: what's the justification for combining snow tires with an AWD car?

[stevieray]

My Cherokee got around without a hitch in 4high..in 4 low it felt like it would climb a tree.

A couple of years ago we got a pretty nasty dump that lasted. IIRC, it was ice first then snow on top.

Put snow tires on my s10 and again got around without a hitch.

It's about knowing how to drive in snow as much as the mode.

[Megatron96]

A set or two of snow tires are going to be a lot cheaper than buying a car.

[Frosty]

My Cherokee got around without a hitch in 4high..in 4 low it felt like it would climb a tree.

A couple of years ago we got a pretty nasty dump that lasted. IIRC, it was ice first then snow on top.

Put snow tires on my s10 and again got around without a hitch.

It's about knowing how to drive in snow as much as the mode.

I had a '99 XJ that had a pretty cool transfer case. It had standard 4wd with Hi/Lo but you could also put it into fullt ime AWD mode. You aren't supposed to use 4wd on non-slick roads and we get a lot of spotty conditions where it gets annoying constantly shifting in and out of 4wd, so I just left it in full time AWD mode all winter and didn't have to worry about it. My 2005 Silverado had a similar setup.

[DJ's left nut]

True winter/snow tires are pretty badass and make a MASSIVE difference in weather.

Alternatively, Goodyear and Michelin now make a couple of really good all-weather tires (not all-season). The Michelin's are called Cross-Climates and the Goodyears are Assurance Weather-Ready. Both are damn nice in the elements and better than all-season tires, though still not as good as true snow tires. Unlike true snow tires, however, you won't need to swap them out in warmer weather.

More tires moving is always gonna be a bit better because the g-forces/load issues mentioned by Frosty. Sometimes you just get a better bite on the rear vs. the front or vice versa. Sometimes the fronts can pull you out of trouble, sometimes the rears can maintain traction better. It's the better, more versatile option.

So the BEST scenario is the AWD with a set of those all-weather tires. But if you absolutely cannot afford an AWD rig, you can make a lot of headway with true dedicated snow tires.

[DJ's left nut]

My Cherokee got around without a hitch in 4high..in 4 low it felt like it would climb a tree.

A couple of years ago we got a pretty nasty dump that lasted. IIRC, it was ice first then snow on top.

Put snow tires on my s10 and again got around without a hitch.

It's about knowing how to drive in snow as much as the mode.

My 2000 Explorer was a damn mountain goat, man.

We had the 'thunder snow' storm here in Columbia in 2006 or 2007 and it shut the town down for 3 or 4 days. Well over a foot of snow and it just came down overnight. No problems at all. Then in 2011 or so we had another one that was even worse; damn near 2 feet of snow and the good old Explorer (in the last winter we had it) proved more than up to the task.

My truck does fine; no complaints. But the Explorer was out there on roads when nobody else was going anywhere. It was a true horse.

[Hoover]

True winter/snow tires are pretty badass and make a MASSIVE difference in weather.

Alternatively, Goodyear and Michelin now make a couple of really good all-weather tires (not all-season). The Michelin's are called Cross-Climates and the Goodyears are Assurance Weather-Ready. Both are damn nice in the elements and better than all-season tires, though still not as good as true snow tires. Unlike true snow tires, however, you won't need to swap them out in warmer weather.

More tires moving is always gonna be a bit better because the g-forces/load issues mentioned by Frosty. Sometimes you just get a better bite on the rear vs. the front or vice versa. Sometimes the fronts can pull you out of trouble, sometimes the rears can maintain traction better. It's the better, more versatile option.

So the BEST scenario is the AWD with a set of those all-weather tires. But if you absolutely cannot afford an AWD rig, you can make a lot of headway with true dedicated snow tires.
I put the Goodyear Assurance Weather-Ready tires on the wife's outback and they are amazing. Car was already good in heavy rain and snow but these tires really stick to the road. Wouldn't put anything else on it.

[DJ's left nut]

I put the Goodyear Assurance Weather-Ready tires on the wife's outback and they are amazing. Car was already good in heavy rain and snow but these tires really stick to the road. Wouldn't put anything else on it.

Slapped a set on the minivan after we got to use 10 sacks of kitty litter to get us up a hill last season on whatever the factory Falken POS tires it came with. I preferred the directional tread pattern on the cross-climates but they don't make them for the 20 inch rims.

But I've had awfully good luck with the weatherready's. They have a little more road noise than conventional touring tires but that's a minor complaint really.

[Frosty]

My 2000 Explorer was a damn mountain goat, man.

We had the 'thunder snow' storm here in Columbia in 2006 or 2007 and it shut the town down for 3 or 4 days. Well over a foot of snow and it just came down overnight. No problems at all. Then in 2011 or so we had another one that was even worse; damn near 2 feet of snow and the good old Explorer (in the last winter we had it) proved more than up to the task.

My truck does fine; no complaints. But the Explorer was out there on roads when nobody else was going anywhere. It was a true horse.

About four years ago, I was in Spokane waiting for my son to come home on Christmas break. We were having him come over from Seattle on the train, which only comes in at 2 am. Well, it started snowing like hell that afternoon and they ended up cancelling the train because there was an avalanche in the pass coming over from the west. So we ended up having to get an emergency flight over, which also was coming in around 2 am.

Meanwhile, it is still snowing like crazy and piling up. When I left the motel to go to the airport, there was easily a foot of unplowed snow on the freeway. My little Subaru took it like a champ even on the long ass hill coming up out of Spokane (Spokane is kind of down in a hole with the airport up on the high plains out of the city). It was a pretty wet snow too so would pull you all over but I still made it okay.

Another time, we were coming back from Montana and it started snowing as we were approaching the Montana/Idaho border (Lookout Pass). We got right to the top of the pass and there was a bus and a semi stuck side by side, blocking the whole thing. They were trying to get chains on so we waited a bit but it soon became apparent that it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. Meanwhile, traffic is starting to pile up behind us.

Finally a big 4wd pickup went down in the ditch alongside the semi and went around. It was really deep but I decided to try it too. I had chains and both of my grown sons so I figured we could push it out if I got stuck.

Well, except for one butt clenching moment coming up out of the ditch back onto the road, the Subie did great and we got by even though it was deep enough that we were pushing snow. We went on our merry way and didn't have a single car behind us for better than an hour. You could see the other side of the freeway had the same problem and traffic was backed up better than 20 miles.

I try to avoid that kind of snow but it's nice to know I can get through if I have to.

[Frosty]

For tires, I've become a big fan of the Continental snow tires. I have a 2 year old WinterContact tires on the Subie and we just put the new VikingContact 7 tires on my wife's HR-V and they are very nice tires without being stupid expensive.

[Discuss Thrower]

Appreciate the feedback. Glad my intuition was pretty spot on given what everyone's been saying.

[srvy]

Bumping once for visibility.


To anyone who re-visits the thread and isn't located above the 49th Parallel: what's the justification for combining snow tires with an AWD car?

Nothing IMO.

Its fine but clearance is key in deep snow if you encounter 10 to 12 inches fresh before plowed the tread bite is important to push you through from a stopped start or pulling a steep incline. Honestly other than the pain of putting on and off chains will get you from the residential side streets to the maintained roads better than anything that isn't on tracks.

[displacedinMN]

This
https://media0.giphy.com/media/Afw2tMIDyv8re/source.gif

I WANT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Frosty]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Afw2tMIDyv8re/source.gif

That's about what it looks like trying to get onto the highway after the snowplow buries the end of our road. :#

[DJ's left nut]

Bumping once for visibility.


To anyone who re-visits the thread and isn't located above the 49th Parallel: what's the justification for combining snow tires with an AWD car?

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with snow tires if you have AWD.

Just spring for some good all weather tires like the two I've mentioned (and again - do your research because these are NOT all-season tires. The truly good ones can get the 3PMSF rating from the US Tire Manufacturers Association and it means they're rated for severe snow service and have hit a handful of snow traction benchmarks.)

You'll have this little symbol on your sidewall:

https://snowtyres.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/3MPSF_symbol-300x300.jpg

It used to be exclusively the domain of snow tires but because of advances in rubber compounds there are a few non snow tires that have earned that rating and don't have to be babied. You slap a set of those on an AWD vehicle and you'll be able to do just about anything that your ground clearance will allow.

Now weirdly, those aren't quite as good in rain as regular all-season (and especially summer) tires. I don't recall why exactly but it has something to do with chemical additives in rubber that allow the tires to stay more pliable when they're cold but also makes them less grippy when wet. So if you have to do a lot of spring/rain driving, just remember that you're trading some wet weather traction/performance for improved snowy weather performance.

So in THAT case, you could find a good justification for using a less robust snow performance tire year-round for improved wet weather traction and then flip to the pure snow tires in the winter. I wouldn't bother, but it's a consideration.

And I guess the final point - remember that AWD gets you moving but it doesn't help you stop and it doesn't help you corner. So yeah, there will still be some advantages in a pure snow tire on an AWD vehicle if for no other reason than the fact that they'll simply help you stop/turn better. It's that old Michelin (I think) commercial - "Brakes stop your wheels but the tires stop your car..." If you have an AWD vehicle in the snow and mediocre tires for weather, you're still not gonna stop or turn worth a shit. You'll still have under-steer that immediately turns to over-steer and puts you into a guardrail. So again, while I personally don't think the hassle of swapping to winter tires is worth the nominal performance upgrades over the new all-weather tires, there ARE some advantages to them still.

[DJ's left nut]

Ah - here's your article. Ignore me; read this:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15338788/all-weather-tires-explained-merging-all-seasons-and-winter-tires/

If you can find Nokians that'll fit your vehicle, I love the Nokians I have on my truck. I suspect they make excellent all-weather tires for cars as well. In either event, that article appears to give you a shopping list.

[Bugeater]

I had a '99 XJ that had a pretty cool transfer case. It had standard 4wd with Hi/Lo but you could also put it into fullt ime AWD mode. You aren't supposed to use 4wd on non-slick roads and we get a lot of spotty conditions where it gets annoying constantly shifting in and out of 4wd, so I just left it in full time AWD mode all winter and didn't have to worry about it. My 2005 Silverado had a similar setup.

That's Selec-trac, my 2002 Grand Cherokee has it as well.

[Naptown Chief]

Lowrider.
Air dam.
Profit.

Alternatively, duct taping a fat chick to the front of your car may be as effective.

This comment got a thumbs down ( :( ) but here's a free tip- Wheel Gap is like vagina.. The more fingers you can get in there the worse off it is.

you're welcome