Computers to call "Balls and Strikes" ?

[Scooter LaCanforno]

NEW YORK – Computer plate umpires could be called up to the major leagues at some point during the next five seasons.

Umpires agreed to cooperate with Major League Baseball in the development and testing of an automated ball-strike system as part of a five-year labor contract announced Saturday, two people familiar with the deal told The Associated Press.

[BigRedChief]

Good. Why be subjective on a potential game altering call? Get it right every single time.

[C3HIEF3S]

I wouldn't be in for this if umpires weren't so terrible at calling balls and strikes. Any power that can be taken out of their hands, I am here for. The tech that is available will get these calls right 99% of the time.

[Frazod]

Should have happened years ago. :#

[PHOG]

Overdue IMO. Get it right, please.

[lcarus]

I like the idea for football. NFL officials fuck up the spot of the ball too often. Shouldn't be too hard to have first down markers and pylons that know if the ball has reached it.

[carcosa]

Da freakin umps are blind !

[jd1020]

I like the idea for football. NFL officials **** up the spot of the ball too often. Shouldn't be too hard to have first down markers and pylons that know if the ball has reached it.

Tell me how a first down marker and pylon is suppose to tell if a runner is down before making it to the spot.

[Hoopsdoc]

Good. Why be subjective on a potential game altering call? Get it right every single time.

Agreed.

[Fish]

Bout fucking time!

[chiefzilla1501]

I don't know if I love this. The best pitchers at the game study their umpires and know tendencies. Outworking the opponent or other pitchers should be part of the game. Human umpires rewards players who work harder at the game.

[limested]

I don't know if I love this. The best pitchers at the game study their umpires and know tendencies. Outworking the opponent or other pitchers should be part of the game. Human umpires rewards players who work harder at the game.

The problem is that the same umpire isn’t even consistent in the same game or even sometimes the same at bat.

[Chief Northman]

Can’t wait to see the first manager kick dirt and spit on a computer...

[wazu]

Please do this. There are so few people on earth capable of doing this job well. Remove the human element wherever you can.

[lcarus]

Tell me how a first down marker and pylon is suppose to tell if a runner is down before making it to the spot.

That aspect of it will have to be judged by human officials obviously. Always gonna need human officials. But the ability to know if the ball ever reached a first down/goal line is valuable information.

[scho63]

They can easily have thin metal wires inside an NFL football that could trigger or sense the exact location of the ball on a football field.

[Fish]

I don't know if I love this. The best pitchers at the game study their umpires and know tendencies. Outworking the opponent or other pitchers should be part of the game. Human umpires rewards players who work harder at the game.

The goal should be consistency across the sport. Not managing the different approaches of the many different umps.

[BigCatDaddy]

This removes the arguments which is often the best thing about a baseball game.

[KChiefs1]

About damn time.

[MahiMike]

Ugg. Don't ruin the last great sport too.

[DaFace]

I'm a fairly casual baseball fan, so can anyone tell me the arguments against this? I know that history is a lot of it, but the technology has been there for a decade and seems like it would be much more precise.

I guess some people like the idea of some variability in the game? That makes it exciting in some ways, but mostly just seems frustrating.

[BigRedChief]

I like the idea for football. NFL officials **** up the spot of the ball too often. Shouldn't be too hard to have first down markers and pylons that know if the ball has reached it.they can put microchips in the ball that won’t weight shit. Line the field with sensors. Done.

[Chief Roundup]

I like the idea for football. NFL officials fuck up the spot of the ball too often. Shouldn't be too hard to have first down markers and pylons that know if the ball has reached it.

That aspect of it will have to be judged by human officials obviously. Always gonna need human officials. But the ability to know if the ball ever reached a first down/goal line is valuable information.

You do realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

[Demonpenz]

There is going to be some growing pains. The 12-6 curve never gets called a strike at the knees even though it should so you are going to see some crazy strikes on big ass breaking balls.

[Demonpenz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDZFQCPHjV4

[Demonpenz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONKF7vbaBcc

[Demonpenz]

I don't care much but it is nice when the game is taking forever or the threat of rain is coming or the game is a blowout or if there is a sucky rookie at bat...it is nice that the ump will call more close strikes to move the game along

[notorious]

Umpires are such pompous asses that it would be glorious to see their power taken away.

[kcclone]

Maybe one day they can figure out a way for computers or robots reduce the over-officiating that is currently killing the enjoyment of watching NFL football.

We can dream I guess

[The Franchise]

they can put microchips in the ball that won’t weight shit. Line the field with sensors. Done.

Knee is down before the ball crosses the sensor but the guy reaches over for a 1st? Not so easy to get this correct with computers.

[KChiefs1]

Ugg. Don't ruin the last great sport too.


It will vastly improve it.

[JakeF]

About time, we've had the ability to do it electronically for years. It will be much more accurate than human beings. The problem will be the current umps trying to sabotage the process endlessly as the NFL refs have done with OPI challenges.

The league can adjust the strike across the entire league with the push of a few buttons.

[JakeF]

Maybe one day they can figure out a way for computers or robots reduce the over-officiating that is currently killing the enjoyment of watching NFL football.

We can dream I guess
Most of that is about current and retired players suing the league for injuries. The league is trying to protect itself from the next multi-billion dollar lawsuit that is almost sure to come. The players have a taste for easy lawsuit money and are unlikely to let that go.

The rest is spur by people complaining about calls so much. The NFL keeps trying to change things to make people happy. They should just tell people 'tough shit' and move on.

[KC_Connection]

If only it happened years ago. We'd have had a different WS winner in 2015.

[lewdog]

If only it happened years ago. We'd have had a different WS winner in 2015.

Oh yeah, and who would that be?

I can smell your pussy from here.

[Pablo]

If only it happened years ago. We'd have had a different WS winner in 2015.

LOL those Jays teams were complete frauds. I remember them well.

[dlphg9]

If only it happened years ago. We'd have had a different WS winner in 2015.

If this would have happened years ago the BJs might not have even made the postseason. Who knows how drastically the past could have been changed.

[kcxiv]

i love it! Done with people like Angel Hernandez and his horrible fucking strike zone.

[kcxiv]

Ugg. Don't ruin the last great sport too.

naw, when you have this fucking guy being an umpire.

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[DanT]

I'm a fairly casual baseball fan, so can anyone tell me the arguments against this? I know that history is a lot of it, but the technology has been there for a decade and seems like it would be much more precise.

I guess some people like the idea of some variability in the game? That makes it exciting in some ways, but mostly just seems frustrating.

There could be some arguments that have to do with such notions that the umpires adjust their calls adaptively. For example, there's a notion that umpires reward pitchers for accuracy by giving them more and more borderline calls as the game progresses, if the pitcher can "expand" the zone by hitting pitches just outside of what had been the strike zone. Of course, if one wanted to permit pitches to continue to be rewarded in this way, one could program the algorithms to call the balls and strikes adaptively, in a way that changes during the game based on the pitcher's evolving performance.

There's other sorts of adaptations that seem to occur, such as expanded zones when the count favors the batter (e.g. 2-0) and tighter zones when the count favors the pitcher (e.g. 0-2).

Here's a link to an older article that talks a little bit about strike zone variability and the factors associated with it.
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/12965/spinning-yarn-the-real-strike-zone/

One big factor is catcher framing. As good as Sal Perez is at many aspects of being a catcher, he is not good at all as a pitch framer. If the strike zone were automated, that would tend to help out teams with starting catchers like Salvy.

[DanT]

Here's an article discussing a "Universal Strike Zone"
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/40891/prospectus-feature-the-universal-strike-zone/

[DaFace]

There could be some arguments that have to do with such notions that the umpires adjust their calls adaptively. For example, there's a notion that umpires reward pitchers for accuracy by giving them more and more borderline calls as the game progresses, if the pitcher can "expand" the zone by hitting pitches just outside of what had been the strike zone. Of course, if one wanted to permit pitches to continue to be rewarded in this way, one could program the algorithms to call the balls and strikes adaptively, in a way that changes during the game based on the pitcher's evolving performance.

There's other sorts of adaptations that seem to occur, such as expanded zones when the count favors the batter (e.g. 2-0) and tighter zones when the count favors the pitcher (e.g. 0-2).

Here's a link to an older article that talks a little bit about strike zone variability and the factors associated with it.
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/12965/spinning-yarn-the-real-strike-zone/

One big factor is catcher framing. As good as Sal Perez is at many aspects of being a catcher, he is not good at all as a pitch framer. If the strike zone were automated, that would tend to help out teams with starting catchers like Salvy.Thanks! (and apologies for the errant red thumb).

[dlphg9]

There could be some arguments that have to do with such notions that the umpires adjust their calls adaptively. For example, there's a notion that umpires reward pitchers for accuracy by giving them more and more borderline calls as the game progresses, if the pitcher can "expand" the zone by hitting pitches just outside of what had been the strike zone. Of course, if one wanted to permit pitches to continue to be rewarded in this way, one could program the algorithms to call the balls and strikes adaptively, in a way that changes during the game based on the pitcher's evolving performance.

There's other sorts of adaptations that seem to occur, such as expanded zones when the count favors the batter (e.g. 2-0) and tighter zones when the count favors the pitcher (e.g. 0-2).

Here's a link to an older article that talks a little bit about strike zone variability and the factors associated with it.
https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/12965/spinning-yarn-the-real-strike-zone/

One big factor is catcher framing. As good as Sal Perez is at many aspects of being a catcher, he is not good at all as a pitch framer. If the strike zone were automated, that would tend to help out teams with starting catchers like Salvy.

But rules are rules. The rules dont state that some egomaniac behind the plate gets to decide what the strike zone is and continually change it during the game. It'd be like a ref in football calling a FG good because the kicker made all of his kicks previously, so even though the ball didn't go between the upright, it was close enough.

[tmax63]

I'm all for it. I'm a closet Rockies fan and they have several good young pitchers coming up. I got so sick of watching the established "name" pitchers get the calls and the Rockies guy throw the exact same pitch and get it called a ball. I watched at least 10 games last season where the umps would shrink the zone around the 4th or 5th inning and end up running off or running the pitch count up on the young guys and blow up what was gonna be a good game for them.

[threebag]

Please do this. There are so few people on earth capable of doing this job well. Remove the human element wherever you can.

It’s part of the game.

[DanT]

But rules are rules. The rules dont state that some egomaniac behind the plate gets to decide what the strike zone is and continually change it during the game. It'd be like a ref in football calling a FG good because the kicker made all of his kicks previously, so even though the ball didn't go between the upright, it was close enough.

I'm like that with Speed Limits--if they are going to be posted, how about we enforce them!? If they are too low, how about we raise them and then enforce them!?

Anyway, some folks would say that there's a big difference between rules that have always been strictly enforced, like how goal posts are used for NFL Field Goals, and rules that have had variable enforcement without all that much consternation resulting from it.

I'm not a lawyer, but your post made me Google "rule enforcement strike zone textualist", which turned up this amusing essay from 1987 from Douglas O. Linder, who's currently a law professor at UMKC. It's entitled "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISM AND THE STRIKE ZONE": http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/baseball.html Umpire Bork refers to Robert H. Bork, who was nominated for the Supreme Court in 1987 by President Reagan, but the U.S. Senate rejected him.

[DanT]

Speaking of field goals, here's a post on the history of goal posts in the NFL. https://www.profootballhof.com/blogs/stories-from-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame-archives/evolution-of-the-game-goal-posts/

Currently, the goal posts are 35 feet high, after being extended 5 feet higher starting in 2014, https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2014/04/03/foot-goal-posts-present-new-manufacturing-challenges/7280427/

[DanT]

By the way, here's the current official definition of the Strike Zone in the Majors, along with past versions:


Strike Zone
Definition
The official strike zone is the area over home plate from the midpoint between a batter's shoulders and the top of the uniform pants -- when the batter is in his stance and prepared to swing at a pitched ball -- and a point just below the kneecap. In order to get a strike call, part of the ball must cross over part of home plate while in the aforementioned area.

Strikes and balls are called by the home-plate umpire after every pitch has passed the batter, unless the batter makes contact with the baseball (in which case the pitch is automatically a strike).

History of the rule
The vertical specifications of the strike zone have been altered several times during the history of baseball, with the current version being implemented in 1996.

Past strike zones

From 1988-95, the strike zone went from the midpoint between the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, to the top of the knees.
From 1969-87, the strike zone went from the batter's armpits to the top of the knees. This strike zone was implemented, along with the lowering of the mound from 15 inches to 10 inches, in response to a 1968 season -- now known as the "Year of the Pitcher" -- in which the dominance of hurlers reached new heights.
From 1963-68, the strike zone went from the top of the batter's shoulders to the knees.
From 1950-62, the strike zone went from the batter's armpits to the top of the knees.
The version of the strike zone used from 1963-68 was also utilized prior to 1950, going back to the late 1800s.

[ThyKingdomCome15]

Pretty cool. But baseball is still boring.

[kcxiv]

It’s part of the game.

Different era now. It doesnt have to be Im all for removing the part where a Ump can have a hair up his ass and change things around! I hate inconsistent strike zones. I dont know how many times i have seen almost the exact same pitch during an at bat called differently. That shit needs to end.

[BWillie]

This is going to be fantastic but it will help the high walk guys that have good eyes.

[GloryDayz]

This makes me happy. Next up, hopefully, the NFL... Program a computer with what is a hold, offsides, a hard count that has too much motion, DPI, OPI, and everything else, then let the WOPR call a fair game.

[BWillie]

This makes me happy. Next up, hopefully, the NFL... Program a computer with what is a hold, offsides, a hard count that has too much motion, DPI, OPI, and everything else, then let the WOPR call a fair game.

Can we get rid of the chains? Just user a computer and a laser. The entire moving the chains and measurement takes too long. You could have used computerized measuring 20 years ago. Lets do it now.

[Raiderhater]

Most of that is about current and retired players suing the league for injuries. The league is trying to protect itself from the next multi-billion dollar lawsuit that is almost sure to come. The players have a taste for easy lawsuit money and are unlikely to let that go.

The rest is spur by people complaining about calls so much. The NFL keeps trying to change things to make people happy. They should just tell people 'tough shit' and move on.

What lawsuits over injuries have to do with figuring out what a catch is?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I don't know if I love this. The best pitchers at the game study their umpires and know tendencies. Outworking the opponent or other pitchers should be part of the game. Human umpires rewards players who work harder at the game.

Do you also believe that basketball hoops should have different diameters? Should holes be cut to different shapes in golf? If the pitchers are good they're going to be able to command the ball in the zone and attack the weaknesses of the hitters, not the biases of a sextugenarian, wannabe-country-singing, 350lb shitbird.

[chiefzilla1501]

Do you also believe that basketball hoops should have different diameters? Should holes be cut to different shapes in golf? If the pitchers are good they're going to be able to command the ball in the zone and attack the weaknesses of the hitters, not the biases of a sextugenarian, wannabe-country-singing, 350lb shitbird.

I'm not tied to it either way. It's old fashioned but some stuff I like the human element. I don't care if a robot judges in and out on a tennis court. No tennis player is gaming a line judge by their in and out tendencies. Of course you shouldn't have different size rims or holes. That is completely altering the game.

But think about how much you take away from the game. It means catchers have no reason to frame pitches. Players have no reason to study strike zones. These are games within the game that get taken away. I don't really love it.

[2112]

I remember in the 90’s Javier Lopez in the on deck circle catching balls with Eric Greg right behind him calling strikes that were a foot outside.

Since they put these boxes on tv the umpires have been exposed. I think electronic works for everybody. The fans, the players and the umpires.

[JakeF]

What lawsuits over injuries have to do with figuring out what a catch is?
I was referring to the rule changes linked to safety.


The pass catch changes are do to people complaining. NFL is always chasing affirmation.

[lcarus]

You do realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

How so? Human officials fuck up the spot sometimes and the league should use ball tracking to assist them. I'm sure there's some technology they could implement. Of course knowing when the ball carrier was down and where the ball was at that point is the idea and human officials will have to be part of it. But to know if a ball ever, at ANY point, reached the first down or goal line I would think would be a nice tool to have.

It's been discussed numerous times but the tech isn't quite as accurate or as cost efficient as it needs to be yet. Nor is the urgency for these types of things to be implemented. I saw a few articles about it after the "index card game" a couple years ago.

[Megatron96]

Stupid idea that will probably ruin the game.