NFL discusses QB salary cap

[Mecca]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Subplot to keep in mind w/ Mahomes contract and others: NFL, NFLPA have discussed concept of QB salary cap as separate entity in new CBA -- as way to handle ballooning QB market while prioritizing paying other positions (think $170M and $40 M, for example) <a href="https://t.co/Mkqqtue7IX">https://t.co/Mkqqtue7IX</a></p>&mdash; Jeremy Fowler (@JFowlerESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/JFowlerESPN/status/1218214435480834049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 17, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If they were to do this it would benefit us greatly....however from what I've seen most fans are completely opposed to this for the same reason "Ah great so this means teams like the Chiefs will just be better than everyone else for 15 years" then it turned into an NBA max argument and how that sucks..

[ModSocks]

....however from what I've seen most fans are completely opposed to this for the same reason "Ah great so this means teams like the Chiefs will just be better than everyone else for 15 years" then it turned into an NBA max argument and how that sucks..

/Shrug.

I don't see any problem with that.

[-King-]

That would kill any type of parity in the league. Having to pay your elite QB a large amount of your cap is a great equalizer right now.

[Mecca]

That would kill any type of parity in the league. Having to pay your elite QB a large amount of your cap is a great equalizer right now.

The issue though is that average QB's are making huge chunks of the salary cap.

Honestly fuck em, do it, it helps us and that's really all I care about.

[Sassy Squatch]

That sounds like a really bad idea for parity purposes. Do it

[Pitt Gorilla]

I suggested this well over a year ago. Good to see other folks thinking similarly.

[-King-]

The issue though is that average QB's are making huge chunks of the salary cap.

Honestly fuck em, do it, it helps us and that's really all I care about.

And if this rule changed, average QBs would be making even more. It would be just like the NBA where above average players get the same max contract as superstar players.

[Pitt Gorilla]

That would kill any type of parity in the league. Having to pay your elite QB a large amount of your cap is a great equalizer right now.

Of course, teams with bad QBs are paying them tons of money anyway. Not sure how much this actually changes things, honestly.

[Mecca]

And if this rule changed, average QBs would be making even more. It would be just like the NBA where above average players get the same max contract as superstar players.

Well, that isn't our problem so...

[Mecca]

Of course, teams with bad QBs are paying them tons of money anyway. Not sure how much this actually changes things, honestly.

It would just give the teams with the really high level QB's more money to spend elsewhere...

[comochiefsfan]

If they pass this then the league is absolutely screwed.

We will run roughshod for 15 years.

[DRM08]

The issue though is that average QB's are making huge chunks of the salary cap.

Honestly **** em, do it, it helps us and that's really all I care about.

Exactly. Deshaun Watson’s agent has already leaked that they will demand more from Texans than what Mahomes will get in KC. I would imagine Dak Prescott will attempt to squeeze Dallas in the same manner. It’s basically a repeat of when Rodgers’ salary was lower than Carr, Stafford, Cousins, and Jimmy G. Packers must have been chuckling around that time.

[-King-]

Of course, teams with bad QBs are paying them tons of money anyway. Not sure how much this actually changes things, honestly.

Huh? There's a big difference in what Russell Wilson makes or what Mahomes is about to make and what a QB like tannehill is making. Don't know what you mean by paying them a ton.

[Mecca]

There are a ton of examples of average QB's who make a ton of money, Garappollo got a huge deal when he'd started like 5 games.

Some idiot team probably Tennessee will pay Tannehill some ludicrous rate like 15 mill a year.

[ModSocks]

The issue though is that average QB's are making huge chunks of the salary cap.

Honestly fuck em, do it, it helps us and that's really all I care about.

Yup. It's your choice to sign Mitch Trubisky.

[duncan_idaho]

I could see doing something where a player's salary can't exceed a certain percentage of the salary cap, but breaking it out into a separate cap seems like it just gives too much advantage to the teams with elite QBs.

Like, say, a player's salary can never exceed 20 percent of the salary cap. For the truly elite guys like Mahomes you could negotiate that they have a base salary and a rolling bonus that brings them to that 20 percent mark each year the cap increases.

But I mean, I wouldn't cry if it got broken out altogether. Would tilt things in KC's favor, for sure.

[ModSocks]

There are a ton of examples of average QB's who make a ton of money, Garappollo got a huge deal when he'd started like 5 games.

Some idiot team probably Tennessee will pay Tannehill some ludicrous rate like 15 mill a year.

COUGH**DAK PRESCOTT NEXT**COUGH COUGH

[RealSNR]

The issue has never been about players like Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers or (at the time he signed his extension) Andrew Luck getting record-setting deals.

The problem is all Jay Cutlers, Andy Daltons, Derek Carrs, Kirk Cousins, and soon-to-be Dak Prescotts getting top 5 QB money when they sign their deals, and in one or two cases, those shitty guys are the ones who re-set the top of the QB market.

I remember a few years ago when Tyrod Taylor was a first year starter for Buffalo and did decently well after being a backup for so long. He put up 14 starts, 3035 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INTs. Game managery, yes, but effective enough if you were the 2016 Buffalo Bills and lacked playmakers at any and all positions. Well, he got an extension. 6 years and $92 million. For game manager production. Yeah, blah blah incentive-laden blah blah not guaranteed after so many years blah blah... whatever. That is outrageous.

Janeane Garofalo signing that fucking stupid extension with San Fran when he played like 5 fucking games for them. Holy shit. You're paying that for 5 games, huh?

If Dak gets above $35 (which would put him around Russell Wilson) people would absolutely say this needs to be put into place.

And I'm all for it. Because Mahomes.

[ModSocks]

but breaking it out into a separate cap seems like it just gives too much advantage to the teams with elite QBs.

.

Yeah i think im ok with this.

[DRM08]

There are a ton of examples of average QB's who make a ton of money, Garappollo got a huge deal when he'd started like 5 games.

Some idiot team probably Tennessee will pay Tannehill some ludicrous rate like 15 mill a year.

Jimmy Grapes was the highest salary in the league after 5 starts. That was an absurd situation. But it’s working out for Niners. $27.5M salary is chump change. Cowboys/Texans might end up paying north of $40M per year for QBs very similar to Jimmy.

[ThaVirus]

There are a ton of examples of average QB's who make a ton of money, Garappollo got a huge deal when he'd started like 5 games.

Some idiot team probably Tennessee will pay Tannehill some ludicrous rate like 15 mill a year.

Tannehill will get more than $15m per year

[Hoover]

If there is a QB cap then an agent is just going to want a huge % of it for his client if he's the starter. doesn't change anything. And if its 40M then we can't pay Pat all of it, it actually hurts him.

[Mecca]

Tannehill will get more than $15m per year

Probably, I didn't even think about when I typed in what a stupid QB deal is...it's more like 25.

Just watch in a month the Titans will pay some insane number like like 26 mill per year.....on something like 5 years 110 mill with 38 mill guaranteed to Tannehill.

And in the same breath they'll end up giving Henry the biggest RB contract in the league...good luck winning that way.

[TambaBerry]

it doesnt though it rewards teams who went and identified talented guys and went and got them or got lucky and got them either way. There have been a lot of busts at the top of the draft think trubisky and mayfield.

[ThaVirus]

Probably, I didn't even think about when I typed in what a stupid QB deal is...it's more like 25.



Just watch in a month the Titans will pay some insane number like like 26 mill per year.....on something like 5 years 110 mill with 38 mill guaranteed to Tannehill.



And in the same breath they'll end up giving Henry the biggest RB contract in the league...good luck winning that way.


They way they’ve built their team and this late surge by Tannehill almost forces them to sign both guys long-term.

They’d better win the Super Bowl this year or they’re pretty much fucked.

.. unless this version of Tannehill is legitimate, of course. If he is then he’d be worth the contract they’ll give him.

[-King-]

Yeah i think im ok with this.

Meh. I like parity in the league. I appreciate the fact that it's hard to win in the NFL and because of that Aaron Rodgers has only won 1 Superbowl. The balancing act of acquiring talent while trying to stay within the salary cap really shows how skillful some GMs are how some aren't. Take that away and it cheapens the league IMO.

[DRM08]

Probably, I didn't even think about when I typed in what a stupid QB deal is...it's more like 25.

Just watch in a month the Titans will pay some insane number like like 26 mill per year.....on something like 5 years 110 mill with 38 mill guaranteed to Tannehill.

And in the same breath they'll end up giving Henry the biggest RB contract in the league...good luck winning that way.

Tannehill has played better this year than Jimmy Grapes did in his 5 starts that led to the highest salary in the league. Jimmy and the Niners have set a precedent. Tannehill will get $28-30M, perhaps more.

[Mecca]

Of course Reddit immediately turned it into "I can't wait for teams to try to classify guys like Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald as QB's by trying to develop some trick package."

[Mecca]

Tannehill has played better this year than Jimmy Grapes did in his 5 starts that led to the highest salary in the league. Jimmy and the Niners have set a precedent. Tannehill will get $28-30M, perhaps more.

The difference is, Tannehill has played a ton, you should basically know what he is.

[-King-]

Probably, I didn't even think about when I typed in what a stupid QB deal is...it's more like 25.

Just watch in a month the Titans will pay some insane number like like 26 mill per year.....on something like 5 years 110 mill with 38 mill guaranteed to Tannehill.

And in the same breath they'll end up giving Henry the biggest RB contract in the league...good luck winning that way.

If there's a QB only cap, that same team would probably have to pay him the full amount of the cap. It's literally just like the max contracts in the NBA and how Kris Middleton makes basically the same amount as LeBron. It's dumb.

[DRM08]

The difference is, Tannehill has played a ton, you should basically know what he is.

His agent will blame the Dolphins organization. If Titans win the Super Bowl, they will have to give Tannehill the Flacco treatment...which likely means about $40M per year since everyone knows that is where KC/Mahomes will set the market.

[Mecca]

If there's a QB only cap, that same team would probably have to pay him the full amount of the cap. It's literally just like the max contracts in the NBA and how Kris Middleton makes basically the same amount as LeBron. It's dumb.

Yes but it wouldn't affect their cap room thus allowing other players to get paid. A huge contention point right now with the NFLPA is that the QBs are getting all the money and hurting other guys paydays.

[-King-]

Yes but it wouldn't affect their cap room thus allowing other players to get paid. A huge contention point right now with the NFLPA is that the QBs are getting all the money and hurting other guys paydays.

Whose payday is hurt? Every elite guy is signing a record contract basically every year. And even if that was the case, if a guy wants to get paid, he can go to a team without an elite QB and get his money that way. There are plenty of teams that aren't paying their QB crazy money.

[DJ's left nut]

/Shrug.

I don't see any problem with that.

The only problem I kiiiiinda see, and it's not a real one, IS the NBA max contract dilemma.

Everyone will offer LeBron the max. But ultimately there will be dozens of other lesser players that also get the max. So at that point it's awfully tough for a smaller market team to keep some of these guys because they can't just over-extend themselves to keep them.

They're on the same financial footing as the Lakers, for instance, but the Lakers offer more benefits off the court.

So if everyone can offer Mahomes the same max amount at $40 million, the Chiefs have really nowhere to go with their offer. They just have to hope Patrick REALLY likes it in Kansas City rather than has an interest in pursuing higher profile media markets.

Anything that prevents the Chiefs from simply saying "Fuck it, take what you want and stay here" makes me nervous. It may ultimately serve as a disadvantage for the Chiefs.

[RealSNR]

Do QBs even sign $25 million AAV extensions anymore? It's kind of like how a couple years ago enough dudes broke $20 million AAV that you just stopped seeing the Alex Smiths of the league sign new extensions or contracts worth $15-20 million AAV. Like if you were good enough to get an extension as a starting QB, the MINIMUM was $20 million. Have we now reached that with the $25 million mark?

[Mecca]

Here is the entire article since I have plus I'll go ahead and put it up for everyone to read....

If NFL scientists developed a quarterback in the lab to satisfy both football purists and the analytics crowd, Patrick Mahomes would emerge from the smoke.

Mahomes' first three seasons in the NFL mirror the early career of The Notorious B.I.G. in that both needed just a few years to show that they had no obvious weaknesses. One seamlessly moved from storytelling to classic metaphors, the other from 60-yard dimes on the move to dissecting defenses in the red zone.

At 23 years, 104 days old last season, Patrick Mahomes became the NFL's youngest Most Valuable Player since Dan Marino in 1984. Since his first start in the final week of the 2017 season, Mahomes leads the NFL in touchdown passes (78) and total QBR (78.3).

All of this has tremendous monetary value -- like nothing the NFL has ever seen. Mahomes, a 2021 free agent, must be paid sooner or later, which means an already exploding quarterback market must reset to a new stratosphere. Here's what we know: Mahomes has one year left on his four-year rookie contract, and the Kansas City Chiefs -- who can place a fifth-year option on him this offseason -- appear open to negotiating sooner than later.

What Kansas City should do and what it will do can vary wildly, which is why we spoke with several people around the league to decipher what's real and what's not.

If NFL scientists developed a quarterback in the lab to satisfy both football purists and the analytics crowd, Patrick Mahomes would emerge from the smoke.

Mahomes' first three seasons in the NFL mirror the early career of The Notorious B.I.G. in that both needed just a few years to show that they had no obvious weaknesses. One seamlessly moved from storytelling to classic metaphors, the other from 60-yard dimes on the move to dissecting defenses in the red zone.

At 23 years, 104 days old last season, Patrick Mahomes became the NFL's youngest Most Valuable Player since Dan Marino in 1984. Since his first start in the final week of the 2017 season, Mahomes leads the NFL in touchdown passes (78) and total QBR (78.3).

All of this has tremendous monetary value -- like nothing the NFL has ever seen. Mahomes, a 2021 free agent, must be paid sooner or later, which means an already exploding quarterback market must reset to a new stratosphere. Here's what we know: Mahomes has one year left on his four-year rookie contract, and the Kansas City Chiefs -- who can place a fifth-year option on him this offseason -- appear open to negotiating sooner than later.

What Kansas City should do and what it will do can vary wildly, which is why we spoke with several people around the league to decipher what's real and what's not.

Wilson might be the best comparison for Mahomes because not only does he have $107 million in guarantees, but also $65 million of that came in a signing bonus. Goff got a $25 million signing bonus and an extra $31 million in guarantees in 2020. And while Goff is a nice young player, Wilson is more aligned with Mahomes' status among top-five quarterbacks.

No NFL execs or sources who spoke with ESPN for this story have a problem going close to the $40 million threshold. In fact, one source says his NFL front office recently talked about Mahomes being worth $1 billion -- and was only half-joking.

"I'm not sure if it's $40 million as the number, but it will probably be close to that," one AFC executive said. "It's a given he will be the highest paid. If he's doing, say, a four-year deal, $160 million, that might be a realistic spot."

Those numbers actually have a loose correlation to touchdown passes. Mahomes' 76 touchdowns as a starter are eight more than Wilson's, the second-place finisher, during that span. That's 11.7% more than Wilson's total. The same percentage increase over Wilson's annual pay would net Mahomes $39.12 million per year.

One high-ranking league source put it bluntly: Mahomes should ignore those semantics and blow up the vault. Forget the $40 million.

"If I were [the Chiefs], I would be as proactive as humanly possible," the source said. "If Jared Goff can get no offset language in his entire contract after three years in the league, then this specific player has all the leverage. I think $40 million would be Mahomes selling himself short."

The structure
If an NFL player is ever set to go NBA on the league -- loading up on huge payouts over shorter terms -- Mahomes is a prime candidate. This would make agents across the country happy because it would give the player the leverage of fully guaranteed money and the chance to reopen contract talks in two or three years. It's the Kirk Cousins framework, with 30 pounds of additional muscle.

"The ideal case is going shorter length," the high-ranking league source said. "It's all about where the team sets their markets. This could be a case where the team's cash flow is so huge that the guarantees don't have to break the market. Or the tradeoff might be a higher per year average and less guarantees. It's all about what is most important to Mahomes."

But because that isn't a common practice for top quarterbacks, four years seems like a logical middle ground, especially if Mahomes opts for a deal now instead of playing out 2020.

As it stands, the team likely has to fold two contract years -- the fourth year from the rookie contract and the fifth-year option commensurate with the highest paid at his position -- into a larger deal, thus weighing down the bottom line.

If Mahomes gives the team the concession of more years, where he will undeniably win is the signing bonus that the team can prorate. There's little reason Mahomes can't hit around $75 million on his signing bonus if he wants, several sources say.

The timing
Most agree that the bandage should be ripped off now, as opposed to waiting.

The 2020 salary cap should land between $196 million and $200 million, a spike of around 15% from two years ago ($177.2 million). That number will continue to climb the longer the Chiefs wait.

Five years ago, the going rate for top-shelf quarterbacks was $20 million per year. That market has ballooned 75% since then. It's a true positional explosion, and Mahomes combines superior ability with youth (24) and the perfect offensive system under Andy Reid.

"Pay him this offseason and get it done with," an NFC executive said. "Highest paid."

The only thing preventing that move would be team policy. Some teams simply don't do contracts until a player has one left year on his deal. The Pittsburgh Steelers are known for that, and conventional teams are not likely to change their ways.

Another AFC executive understands that philosophy because "too much can happen in that time," such as injury or a change in team dynamics.

The Chiefs don't appear to have such a hard-and-fast rule, people around the league say, which could help prevent a potential Mahomes holdout.

The variables
NFL teams still project archaic constraints, beholden to bloated salary caps and kick-the-can-down-the-road methods.

Mahomes must decide how long he's willing to make the Chiefs sweat, which one veteran NFL agent says won't be long because agents Leigh Steinberg and Chris Cabott will be eager to close on such a headlining deal.

The Chiefs currently sit at minus-$829,912 in cap space for 2020, though there are two easy fixes: Release Sammy Watkins ($14 million cap hit) and pass-rusher Alex Okafor ($5.95 million).

However, that won't address defensive end Chris Jones, who might be too costly to keep. The market for high-end interior pass-rushers is well above $15 million per year. One option is to franchise tag Jones and then trade him to a team that can afford to sign him long-term. That's what the Chiefs did with pass-rusher Dee Ford, who signed with the San Francisco 49ers after they gave the Chiefs a second-round pick to get him.

Another problem looms with tight end Travis Kelce, whose last year of his contract carries a $7.25 million salary in 2020. He'll undoubtedly want a raise, joining Frank Clark (five years, $105.5 million), Tyreek Hill (three years, $54 million) and Tyrann Mathieu (three years, $42 million) as star Chiefs players whose contracts weigh heavily on the team's future decisions.

The Chiefs have plenty of work to do to create space for a quarterback who cost $4.1 million this past season. They have many star players, and their books show it. Then there's the looming collective bargaining agreement, and sources say this round of negotiations has included an interesting talking point fueled by owners: creating a separate salary cap for quarterbacks. The selling point is that addressing quarterback money as a separate entity leaves more flexibility for signing players at other positions. Think a $40 million cap for QBs and a $170 million cap for everyone else, for example. But the player side has reason to be skeptical about that, given that owners don't always fulfill promises.

Regardless, the Chiefs don't have much traction to nitpick Mahomes' value at the negotiating table. Vegas favors the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl this year and next. Mahomes is the chief reason for that.

"This is not the kind of player you want to put off," the second AFC exec said. "He's too good. Just get it done now."

[RunKC]

Guys it doesn’t matter what format they use. We are still King. As long as Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes are here, we’re in the AFCCG 90% of the time moving forward.

This year has proven everything we need to know. Watson is really good. Lamar is really good. But they are NOT Mahomes. And who gives a shit about some young QB? It’s very rare that a Patrick Mahomes type talent comes out, especially on a loaded team. Even so, our guy has all the experience.

The cap does not matter for us. Andy Reid has always found very good OL and weapons. Brian Westbrook, DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Shady McCoy, Brent Celek, Travis Kelce, Kareem Hunt, Tyreek Hill, Mecole Hardman.

Andy drafted all of these guys. There will ALWAYS be talent on this offense as long as he is here.

We are set up no matter what. This is Bill Belichick and Tom Brady type of ruling. It’s gonna happen.

[DRM08]

Do QBs even sign $25 million AAV extensions anymore? It's kind of like how a couple years ago enough dudes broke $20 million AAV that you just stopped seeing the Alex Smiths of the league sign new extensions or contracts worth $15-20 million AAV. Like if you were good enough to get an extension as a starting QB, the MINIMUM was $20 million. Have we now reached that with the $25 million mark?

It’s $30M now.

[Mecca]

Do QBs even sign $25 million AAV extensions anymore? It's kind of like how a couple years ago enough dudes broke $20 million AAV that you just stopped seeing the Alex Smiths of the league sign new extensions or contracts worth $15-20 million AAV. Like if you were good enough to get an extension as a starting QB, the MINIMUM was $20 million. Have we now reached that with the $25 million mark?

25+ seems to be where most of the new deals are even for the lesser guys....Jacoby Brissett, Derek Carr, and Kirk Cousins even come in above that number.

[DRM08]

25+ seems to be where most of the new deals are even for the lesser guys....Jacoby Brissett, Derek Carr, and Kirk Cousins even come in above that number.

Brissett is only $15M per year. Pretty good deal for Indy when you realize we are quickly moving to a situation with average QBs potentially getting well over $30M per year. Jared Goff at $33M is an example. Dak is probably going to push for $40M. Seattle laughing their butts off, especially with division rival the Rams paying Goff pretty similar money to Wilson.

[chiefzilla1501]

The qb salary cap may affect parity but do we really want parity? Parity to me means more and more boring teams like the Titans and 49ers. Not sure the NFL wants that. They want the game to be exciting and the best way to do that is to have the best teams in the NFL driven by a really good qb.

[-King-]

The qb salary cap may affect parity but do we really want parity? Parity to me means more and more boring teams like the Titans and 49ers. Not sure the NFL wants that. They want the game to be exciting and the best way to do that is to have the best teams in the NFL driven by a really good qb.

What does that have to do with a QB salary cap? Unless the NFL somehow limits the number of teams in the playoffs to teams with an elite QB, teams like the 49ers and Titans will still make it.