Jones vs. 1st Rounder + $20m

[DaFace]

Obviously this is going to be a key discussion this offseason. On The Athletic's podcast (Time's Ours), Nate Taylor said that he's heard that there are multiple teams out there who would give us a 1st round pick for Jones (assuming we tag and trade him), and possibly more than that.

So just to lay out a simplified version of the options:

Option 1:
Chris Jones (probably around $20m per year)

Option 2:
1st round draft pick (cheap for 4-5 years)
$20m worth of other players

For context on how much other players might cost based on recent free agents we've signed:
Clark - $21m
Mathieu - $14m
Hitchens - $9m
Schwartz - $8m
Okafor - $6m

So...which way do we go?

[DaFace]

As much as I love Jones, I just can't see how the Chiefs could turn down an offer for him like that. Putting 1/5th of the team's salary into the DL alone seems like it'd force other position groups to be far too weak. So while they theoretically COULD keep Jones, it seems like a better use of funds to let him go, draft a 1st round LBer or similar, and then pay a couple of key contributors in the secondary.

[Bewbies]

Keep Jones. Watch him and Clark wreck shit for 5 more years.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

Said it in the other thread but I need at least what we got for Clark to move Jones. MAYBE a 1st and high 3rd rounder.

[The Franchise]

You can either have Chris Jones or what’s in the mystery box?

Chiefs fans: We’ve always wanted a Chris Jones but a mystery box could be anything. It could even be a Chris Jones!

[CaliforniaChief]

I don't view it as a Jones or 20 million option as much as a Jones and an LDT/Watkins/Erving/Sorenson proposition. And I'll take Jones.

[DaFace]

You can either have Chris Jones or what’s in the mystery box?

Chiefs fans: We’ve always wanted a Chris Jones but a mystery box could be anything. It could even be a Chris Jones!

But we know that the box has at least $20m in it. That's the difference.

[The Franchise]

But we know that the box has at least $20m in it. That's the difference.

And you’re having to replace him.

[DaFace]

And you’re having to replace him.

I guess I'd just rather spread the money around. I'd gladly take a slightly worse DL for an improved LBer corps.

[Chief Northman]

I know what I’m getting with Jones if retained. Arguably the best interior D-lineman in the league who consistently makes plays. A fan favourite who loves the city and has his best football in front of him.

I get the allure of a high pick and cap space, but the cap can be manipulated, and not many teams can brag having two elite d-lineman in Jones and Clark that affect the game so much. I prefer the Chiefs retain Jones on a long-term deal. Some cap relief lies ahead in 2021, where Mahomes and Jones’ extensions factor in. By 2021 Veach will have a full complement of picks + arguably some compensatory picks to reload the roster.

[The Franchise]

I guess I'd just rather spread the money around. I'd gladly take a slightly worse DL for an improved LBer corps.

Slightly worse? Did you see the drop off in interior pressure against the Texans?

[O.city]

If you can get a good haul, sure.

But i'd expect not to hear you guys who want to trade him and such to not bitch when said rookie DL they draft isn't as good and gets washed out while he learns the position.

[DaFace]

Slightly worse? Did you see the drop off in interior pressure against the Texans?

We got 5 sacks in that game...

[The Franchise]

We got 5 sacks in that game...

We got 5 sacks against a team that has a suspect line and a QB that was known for taking sacks.

[ChiTown]

We got 5 sacks in that game...

I think we should probably credit our offense with a few of those sacks.....

[smithandrew051]

1st round pick and $20 million in cap space.

Keep the roster young and flexible around Mahomes. That would be another huge contract on the books.

This is one thing we could really learn from the Patriots. In their prime, they were constantly selling high on players. Besides the rampant cheating, their ability to move players was a huge part of their success.

[DaFace]

I don't view it as a Jones or 20 million option as much as a Jones and an LDT/Watkins/Erving/Sorenson proposition. And I'll take Jones.

I'd personally take $20m in cap space and still dump Watkins and Erving. I'm not quite ready to dump LDT and Sorensen personally.

[smithandrew051]

Jones is an elite talent. No one will debate that.

I still feel that Clark, Pennel, Nnadi, and Okafor is a well above average DL. Having a bench of Kpassagnon, Saunders, and Speaks gives you solid depth too.

Our defense needs corners (we currently have 2) and more speed at LB.

I’d also like to see the additional money/picks used to upgrade the interior OL. Having any threat of a consistent running game will make Mahomes that much more lethal.

[O.city]

When you look at what guys get on the open market, that 20 million ain't gonna go that far anyway.

[notorious]

Cycle him out and strengthen different parts of the defense with young, cheaper talent.

We need to get out of this thought-process of keeping expensive talent because the team will struggle without one guy.

The only guy this team can't lose is Mahomes. The rest are all moveable pieces.

[crayzkirk]

As others have said... 1st round pick + 3rd rounder. As much as I like Jones, I've seen what happens when a team spends too much on defense. While a good defense is required, the rules changes favor the offense and given some of the bad contracts that the Chiefs have had in the past, I say keep bringing in the fresh talent and let someone else overpay.

[smithandrew051]

I’ll honestly be happy as long as Veach doesn’t panic in either direction.

Don’t overpay Jones just you keep the band together.

Don’t firesell Jones because you think you can’t afford him.

[RealSNR]

If we keep Jones, who exactly are our starting CBs? A rookie and Ward? How about the year following in which Ward is no longer on that cheap undrafted contract of his? What about that goal of giving Pat a real OL (on the interior)?

I reeeeeally want Jones but I also don’t want Orlando fucking Scandrick as one of my starters

[notorious]

If we keep Jones, who exactly are our starting CBs? A rookie and Ward? How about the year following in which Ward is no longer on that cheap undrafted contract of his? What about that goal of giving Pat a real OL (on the interior)?

I reeeeeally want Jones but I also don’t want Orlando ****ing Scandrick as one of my starters

Exactly.

Dynasties' areas of strength morphs over years as your talent emerges.

Putting all of your eggs in one basket (DLine) is not smart. Trust in your talent evaluation, draft well, and rotate in good players.

[dirk digler]

IMVHO I sign Jones. A DL who can gets sacks from the interior (ala Aaron Donald) next to QB are probably the most valuable person on the team.

[CervezaChill]

I thought Chiefs fans would have learnt their lesson having all that cap space warming the bench over the last 2-3 years with Berry and Houston. Also there is no other team one Chris Jones away from competing with the Chiefs at this point.

Probably best not to pay Jones this much especially with Veach showing to have a good eye for talent and drafting smart.

[smithandrew051]

If we keep Jones, who exactly are our starting CBs? A rookie and Ward? How about the year following in which Ward is no longer on that cheap undrafted contract of his? What about that goal of giving Pat a real OL (on the interior)?

I reeeeeally want Jones but I also don’t want Orlando fucking Scandrick as one of my starters

My hope at CB is that we re-sign Fuller to a reasonable deal to go with Ward and Fenton. Then sign a Breeland-type FA on a 1year prove it deal and draft two more.

Fuller also gives us added depth at safety until Thornhill returns.

[smithandrew051]

Exactly.

Dynasties' areas of strength morphs over years as your talent emerges.

Putting all of your eggs in one basket (DLine) is not smart. Trust in your talent evaluation, draft well, and rotate in good players.

Yeah, this isn’t the Royals trying to make another run in 2016 knowing they won’t be back for awhile anyway.

Now that we’ve won 1, we need a long-term approach. I think Veach has that.

[Cosmos]

Not for a SINGLE first round pick...must be first +.

[O.city]

Exactly.

Dynasties' areas of strength morphs over years as your talent emerges.

Putting all of your eggs in one basket (DLine) is not smart. Trust in your talent evaluation, draft well, and rotate in good players.

Dynasties are just so rare in the NFL that shit has to match up well for it to work. I think you probably have cycles where you go more in for a SB, then clean things up and carry on etc.

It's probably time to clean up the cap and go young. It sucks to lose a player like Jones, but it is what it is. I wouldn't give him away by any means though.

[Buckweath]

My hope at CB is that we re-sign Fuller to a reasonable deal to go with Ward and Fenton. Then sign a Breeland-type FA on a 1year prove it deal and draft two more.

Fuller also gives us added depth at safety until Thornhill returns.

I like Fuller but I really don't see the team resigning him. Same with Robinson.

[O.city]

I don't really want to compare things to the Pats. That was a one off thing that won't happen again. Don't hold this current Chiefs regime up to that to measure success.

If you win multiple SB's, you're in a class with very few. 6 just isn't gonna happen.

[Stinger]

IMVHO I sign Jones. A DL who can gets sacks from the interior (ala Aaron Donald) next to QB are probably the most valuable person on the team.

Yep. With QBs getting the ball out quicker edge rushers are finding it harder to get to the qb, but if you can get the push up the middle that changes everything.

[The Franchise]

I’ll argue to keep Jones but in the end I’m going to trust Veach. If he thinks that we’re better off trading Jones...then so be it. But I’m not supporting it if we get a Dee Ford return back.

[tredadda]

Jones. The quickest way to the QB is up the middle. He is very good at that and very hard to replace. Draft picks are always crap shoots. We already know what we get with Jones. I don’t think his contract will be as oppressive if there is a separate QB cap or at least cap relief for QB salaries. I strongly believe that will pass with the next CBA. Every team stands to benefit from it.

[smithandrew051]

I don't really want to compare things to the Pats. That was a one off thing that won't happen again. Don't hold this current Chiefs regime up to that to measure success.

If you win multiple SB's, you're in a class with very few. 6 just isn't gonna happen.

You shouldn’t make that the expectation, but we would be foolish to not imitate some of the things that made them successful (without cheating obviously)

[smithandrew051]

Dynasties are just so rare in the NFL that shit has to match up well for it to work. I think you probably have cycles where you go more in for a SB, then clean things up and carry on etc.

It's probably time to clean up the cap and go young. It sucks to lose a player like Jones, but it is what it is. I wouldn't give him away by any means though.

Every decade has a dynasty though. Who is better positioned to be that in the 2020’s than KC? No one else has coach and QB figured out like we do.

[O.city]

You shouldn’t make that the expectation, but we would be foolish to not imitate some of the things that made them successful (without cheating obviously)

They had the GOAT QB on a cheap deal. That's not likely to repeat here.

[Three7s]

For me, it depends on how high the pick is and if any other picks are thrown in. Inside pressure is severely underrated and Jones did improve as a run defender throughout the year. If the pick is anything above #20 and no other picks involved, I'd say pass. Top 20?........maybe.

[TLO]

Chris Jones is worth an absolute haul. Tag and trade him. Maybe it's because we've been burned on Justin Houston and Eric Berry in the past, but I'm not keen on giving defensive players gigantic contracts.

It's a roll of the dice either way.

[BossChief]

If we can get a mid first AND third this year, I’d move him. Or a mid first this year and a second next year. Otherwise, having a stacked DL and an offense led by Mahomes is a recipe for sustained dominance.

Wanna trade someone? Trade Watkins, LDT and Erving.

[smithandrew051]

They had the GOAT QB on a cheap deal. That's not likely to repeat here.

But doesn’t that further prove that we should imitate some of how they managed their personnel? We’ll have more cap constraints than they did, so we’ll need to be even smarter than they were to maintain this level of success.

[smithandrew051]

Chris Jones is worth an absolute haul. Tag and trade him. Maybe it's because we've been burned on Justin Houston and Eric Berry in the past, but I'm not keen on giving defensive players gigantic contracts.

It's a roll of the dice either way.

We’re definitely putting more eggs in one basket by re-signing Jones. If we trade and keep the cap space, we can put the resources into multiple pieces.

[TLO]

If we can get a mid first AND third this year, I’d move him. Or a mid first this year and a second next year. Otherwise, having a stacked DL and an offense led by Mahomes is a recipe for sustained dominance.

Wanna trade someone? Trade Watkins, LDT and Erving.

Watkins would need a new contract.
We might get a JUGS machine for LDT
We might get a wet paper towel for Erving.

[dirk digler]

They had the GOAT QB on a cheap deal. That's not likely to repeat here.


I think Mahomes will take a smaller deal in order to keep winning. He can make up the difference in endorsements.

[DaFace]

If we can get a mid first AND third this year, I’d move him. Or a mid first this year and a second next year. Otherwise, having a stacked DL and an offense led by Mahomes is a recipe for sustained dominance.

Wanna trade someone? Trade Watkins, LDT and Erving.

The problem is that that hasn't proved true historically. I'm trying to find the tweet, but I saw a stat recently said that teams with X% of the salary cap tied up in their top 5 players (as we would be after signing Jones and Mahomes) have never won the Super Bowl. It just puts too much strain on all of the other positions.

Of course, there's also a similar stat for QBs percent of the cap alone, and we have no choice but to do that with Pat...

[Iconic]

We don't win a SB without Jones in that game. A first and 20m ain't enough to move the needle.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Would love for them to keep Jones, but don't know if it's feasible and financially sound to tie up $40 mil. per year in 2 D-Linemen. That seems like bad business. I know we like to piss on the Pats around here (deservedly so), but they would never do that and they are the modern example of how to try and do a 'dynasty' in football (well, that and the cheating, of course).

Probably makes more sense to tag and trade him and invest elsewhere in the roster. That said, I wouldn't just give him away. We need to get at LEAST a 1st and 3rd for him. Anything less and I would just tell the other teams to kick rocks and play him on the franchise tag this year and try again next year.

Or, if the value isn't there in a trade, you could always give him the money (as long as it's semi-reasonable) and try and fill in the rest of the roster with draft picks, veterans looking for a ring and cheap reclamation projects. The only problem with that strategy is you leave yourself VERY LITTLE room for error. Better hit on most of your draft picks and FA decisions if you elect to go that way. At least for the next few years, anyway . . . . . .

So it comes down to what's out there, what you can do with it and how much do you trust Veach to make the right decisions.

[carcosa]

It would take a very dumb team offering an absurd amount of value to make me feel good about not keeping Chris Jones.

[Monticore]

We don't win a SB without Jones in that game. A first and 20m ain't enough to move the needle.

we might not of needed Jones to win the Superbowl if we had better LBs and DBs, those batted balls from jones were huge because our LBs can't cover very well, if Mathieu would not be needed t have to man up on the TEs could help elsewhere.

[RunKC]

Option 3-whatever Veach decides bc I trust him.

Hope we can keep Chris but I understand if we deal him.

[wachashi]

Signing Jones comes with more risk than if he's tagged/traded.

For KC to get value from a Jones signing, he's got to perform at an elite level for multiple years and he's got to stay healthy. If he doesn't do those things, it can spell disaster for the Chiefs. On the other hand, tagging/trading Jones for fair compensation gives KC flexibility, allowing them to invest in multiple positions, including the offensive line which is absolutely crucial in protecting our greatest asset.

KC doesn't have to draft a superstar to make tagging/trading worth it. They just have to draft adequately and make smart, low-cost free agent signings. You minimize risk by tagging/trading Jones. If KC had a crystal ball telling them that Jones will stay healthy for the next three years, and he'll perform just like he did this year when he was healthy, then yeah, you'd sign him. But there are no guarantees and the Chiefs cannot afford to take the risk of Jones under performing on his contract.

[Chiefspants]

If the Chiefs feel like he can be a dependable piece for a future dynasty, they will lock him up without a second thought. It’s how Andy does business.

If these rumors that the FO are more down on him than indicated are accurate, they’ll trade him ala Peters and Ford.

At the end of the day, I trust Andy here.

[BossChief]

The problem is that that hasn't proved true historically. I'm trying to find the tweet, but I saw a stat recently said that teams with X% of the salary cap tied up in their top 5 players (as we would be after signing Jones and Mahomes) have never won the Super Bowl. It just puts too much strain on all of the other positions.

Of course, there's also a similar stat for QBs percent of the cap alone, and we have no choice but to do that with Pat...

Here’s the way I see it, and I may well be wrong.

The offense has the following pieces in place the next 2 seasons...

Mahomes
Kelce
Hill
Hardman
Fisher
Schwartz

That’s enough to continue being top 5 in scoring.

Teams will be forced to abandon the run more and more as the front 7 learns Dalys way to stopping opposing running games like they did in the last 8 games of the year.

Opposing offenses are going to need to throw the ball a lot to stay in games. We are going to have a group of young corners (maybe even playing 2 rookie corners a lot) so imo the best way to help them is to have a DL that can get pressure without blitzing.

[ChiefBlueCFC]

In my opinion we extend Jones, cut Watkins (unless he is willing to take a sizable paycut [why would he?]) Wilson and Erving.

Now if Jones wants an overly exuberant amount of money, then tag and trade and take the extra 1st (trade has got to go to an NFC team) and look to free agency and the draft to fill the large void left by Jones.

But, ideally, we keep Jones. I think he just causes too much havoc unlike nearly any DL in the league.

[ChiefBlueCFC]

We got 5 sacks in that game...

And, for as many sacks as Watson takes, he's pretty damn elusive and is tough to bring down. IDK how many times I've watched Watson look dead to rights and escape and make a play.

[FlaChief58]

From a business standpoint, you almost have to tag and trade as much as I hope they don't. A first isn't going to cut it though. I'd do it a first, 3rd and 5th

[Couch-Potato]

Hard to say without knowing what that $20m would be used for... what are some projections as to how that money would be spent?

[boilertiger]

Trading Jones was inevitable when we traded for Clark IMO.

[DaFace]

Hard to say without knowing what that $20m would be used for... what are some projections as to how that money would be spent?

Obviously we're just fans making guesses, but I'd personally put about $12m of it toward upgrading the LBers and $8m to upgrading the CBs.

[Shields68]

From a business standpoint, you almost have to tag and trade as much as I hope they don't. A first isn't going to cut it though. I'd do it a first, 3rd and 5th

Somewhat depends on the first. All firsts are not created equal. To move up from a low first to a high first could take a third and next years first to accomplish. I mean the Chiefs to move up 8 spots in the 1st round to take Mahomes had to give an additional third and next years first.

[Fat Elvis]

We talk a lot about drafting and developing our own talent, but when we actually draft and develop our own talent (a legit, top tier talent at one of the most important positions, no less) you want to send them packing at their first big contract?

What a bunch of morans.

[Halfcan]

It is kind of nice that the only thing we have to argue about this off season is the Jones contract.

[JimNasium]

A Jones in the hand is worth two in the bush?

[Chief Roundup]

Proven player vs an unknown player and some free agents that could be like Hitchens.

[wachashi]

Proven player vs an unknown player and some free agents that could be like Hitchens.

"Proven Player" does not guarantee that he will continue to be as dominant or that he will stay healthy. You're gambling that he will, and he could, but you're still gambling.

[tyecopeland]

Jones over the draft pick and cap flexibility. But it's very close for me. Top 15 pick and a 3rd would probably sway me. You'd be using about 4 mil if that cap space on the draft picks but that still leaves enough for a couple upgrade free agents

[Bill Brasky]

I have a theory that I haven’t seen discussed yet. I think it’s possible we might use the franchise tag on Chris Jones two seasons in a row. The average salary of the top 5 DT’s is $17.6M. We can make that work for next season, but not long term. We can’t afford a 4/80 or 5/100 contract with Jones under any circumstances that doesn’t make massive sacrifices on the rest of the field. However, we CAN afford $17M one season only.

The second franchise tag means we’d have to pay Jones 120% of his salary from the first tag, which doesn’t make sense. In short, I think we tag and keep jones this year, make another run at a Super Bowl, and then tag and trade him in 2021.

This works out well because we can fill CB spots and build the line/ find replacements over two draft periods.

Edit: 2020 franchise tag salary for a DT is $16.7M.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-17-most-likely-players-to-get-franchise-and-transition-tags-in-2020/

[tredadda]

"Proven Player" does not guarantee that he will continue to be as dominant or that he will stay healthy. You're gambling that he will, and he could, but you're still gambling.

No more of a gamble than assuming the picks and money spent on FAs will bring back a return equal to or greater than what you already get with Jones. He could turn out to be the next Eric Berry or Aaron Donald (in terms of living up to his contract) but I think he’s worth the risk.

[The Franchise]

I have a theory that I haven’t seen discussed yet. I think it’s possible we might use the franchise tag on Chris Jones two seasons in a row. The average salary of the top 5 DT’s is $17.6M. We can make that work for next season, but not long term. We can’t afford a 4/80 or 5/100 contract with Jones under any circumstances that doesn’t make massive sacrifices on the rest of the field. However, we CAN afford $17M one season only.

The second franchise tag means we’d have to pay Jones 120% of his salary from the first tag, which doesn’t make sense. In short, I think we tag and keep jones this year, make another run at a Super Bowl, and then tag and trade him in 2021.

This works out well because we can fill CB spots and build the line/ find replacements over two draft periods.

And you’re assuming that he shows up and plays under the tag next year?

[Imon Yourside]

We don't win a SB without Jones in that game. A first and 20m ain't enough to move the needle.

It would take a very dumb team offering an absurd amount of value to make me feel good about not keeping Chris Jones.

Ya I would really really really like to keep Jones.

[tyecopeland]

I have a theory that I haven’t seen discussed yet. I think it’s possible we might use the franchise tag on Chris Jones two seasons in a row. The average salary of the top 5 DT’s is $17.6M. We can make that work for next season, but not long term. We can’t afford a 4/80 or 5/100 contract with Jones under any circumstances that doesn’t make massive sacrifices on the rest of the field. However, we CAN afford $17M one season only.

The second franchise tag means we’d have to pay Jones 120% of his salary from the first tag, which doesn’t make sense. In short, I think we tag and keep jones this year, make another run at a Super Bowl, and then tag and trade him in 2021.

This works out well because we can fill CB spots and build the line/ find replacements over two draft periods.

That would be all well and good but you lose some leverage that way. Plus Jones might not show for the franchise tag. Also the cba could change franchise tag options and compensation.

[Bill Brasky]

And you’re assuming that he shows up and plays under the tag next year?

Correct. I’m floating this theory under the assumption that his talk about wanting to stay in KC was real. He gets a big guaranteed pay day, gets his huge contract eventually, and can stay in KC for year and try for another ring. Obviously playing on a 1 year contract is risky and he might not agree.

[Bill Brasky]

That would be all well and good but you lose some leverage that way. Plus Jones might not show for the franchise tag. Also the cba could change franchise tag options and compensation.

IMO losing leverage on the trade in 2021 is the major downside to this strat, ignoring the risk Jones doesn’t agree to the one year deal. If we really can get a good first and third for him, that’s awfully tempting, however we might not get the picks we want for him.

[Molitoth]

We talk a lot about drafting and developing our own talent, but when we actually draft and develop our own talent (a legit, top tier talent at one of the most important positions, no less) you want to send them packing at their first big contract?

What a bunch of morans.

If Veach didn't back up the brinks truck for Frank Clark, you may have a point.

[FloridaMan88]

This is too hypothetical at this point.

What is the realistic trade value the Chiefs can get for Chris Jones... top 15 first round draft pick? Bottom of the first round draft pick?

Who can the Chiefs realistically afford to keep with Chris Jones’ contract (and big new potential contract) out of the way... Watkins + Fuller + Breeland?

[wachashi]

No more of a gamble than assuming the picks and money spent on FAs will bring back a return equal to or greater than what you already get with Jones. He could turn out to be the next Eric Berry or Aaron Donald (in terms of living up to his contract) but I think he’s worth the risk.

Greater risk usually comes with the possibility of a greater reward, and that's what makes this decision tough. But I don't think it's even an argument as to which option is riskier for the Chiefs. Jones is awesome, but he's just one player. You're betting on him to stay healthy and keep producing at his current level, and that is far from guaranteed.

[stumppy]

A Jones in the hand is worth two in the bush?

QFT

[DaFace]

This is too hypothetical at this point.

What is the realistic trade value the Chiefs can get for Chris Jones... top 15 first round draft pick? Bottom of the first round draft pick?

Who can the Chiefs realistically afford to keep with Chris Jones’ contract (and big new potential contract) out of the way... Watkins + Fuller + Breeland?

Taylor seemed to feel like it would be a low 1st + mid-rounder or a mid-1st. But even he's kind of connecting the dots rather than saying an offer is on the table.

[Skyy God]

We talk a lot about drafting and developing our own talent, but when we actually draft and develop our own talent (a legit, top tier talent at one of the most important positions, no less) you want to send them packing at their first big contract?

What a bunch of morans.

Houston missed an average of 6 games per year after his big money deal and averaged 9 sacks.

And let's now talk about Berry.

Paying big money second contracts is far from a no brainer.

[RealSNR]

If the Chiefs got a 2008 Jared Allen haul for Jones, you'd all take it. Yeah, the 2008 team was rebuilding and needed multiple picks more than they needed Jared Allen, but it's basically the same principal here. Every man has his price.

We got a 1st and two 3rds out of Jared Allen (17th, 73rd, and 82nd overall). There isn't a reasonable draft partner who has two 3rd round picks in this year's draft, but we'd probably be able to get equivalent value if we traded with a team drafting in the top half of the 1st round and they threw in a 4th or a 5th somewhere down the line.

For example, the Cardinals have plenty of cap room but don't have any playmakers on their interior defensive line. They need a WR, but this is one of those stupid deep drafts at that position. So they part with 9th overall and throw in a 2021 pick of some sort.

Chiefs now have:

1.9
1.32
2.63
3.96
4.something
5.something

Now think of the trade down options they could maneuver around with both of those 1st rounders.

Yeah, that means we no longer have Chris Jones. But in exchange, we gain a lot more flexibility to plug holes in the roster with a free agent or two in future seasons. We could also see drastic improvements at LB and/or OL, get a young cheap starter at CB, and still be able to find some more weapons for Pat on offense at WR, TE, and/or RB.

It's boring. It's not sexy. But it virtually guarantees we'll be contending for the Super Bowl for at least the next 3-4 years without having to rely on luck when it comes to injuries so much.

[The Franchise]

If the Chiefs got a 2008 Jared Allen haul for Jones, you'd all take it. Yeah, the 2008 team was rebuilding and needed multiple picks more than they needed Jared Allen, but it's basically the same principal here. Every man has his price.

We got a 1st and two 3rds out of Jared Allen (17th, 73rd, and 82nd overall). There isn't a reasonable draft partner who has two 3rd round picks in this year's draft, but we'd probably be able to get equivalent value if we traded with a team drafting in the top half of the 1st round and they threw in a 4th or a 5th somewhere down the line.

For example, the Cardinals have plenty of cap room but don't have any playmakers on their interior defensive line. They need a WR, but this is one of those stupid deep drafts at that position. So they part with 9th overall and throw in a 2021 pick of some sort.

Chiefs now have:

1.9
1.32
2.63
3.96
4.something
5.something

Now think of the trade down options they could maneuver around with both of those 1st rounders.

Yeah, that means we no longer have Chris Jones. But in exchange, we gain a lot more flexibility to plug holes in the roster with a free agent or two in future seasons. We could also see drastic improvements at LB and/or OL, get a young cheap starter at CB, and still be able to find some more weapons for Pat on offense at WR, TE, and/or RB.

It's boring. It's not sexy. But it virtually guarantees we'll be contending for the Super Bowl for at least the next 3-4 years without having to rely on luck when it comes to injuries so much.

If the Cards offer up the 9th overall pick.....then sure. But I don’t see any team doing that. I think we might be able to pull a 1st rounder from the Dolphins but I’m not sure they’d give up the middle one.

[Hoover]

It's boring. It's not sexy. But it virtually guarantees we'll be contending for the Super Bowl for at least the next 3-4 years without having to rely on luck when it comes to injuries so much.

That is the key point. The focus is no longer how can we win a Super Bowl, its not how do we keep putting this team in position to win championships. Jones is a great player, but the last thing you want to do if you're the Chiefs is essentially lock in your roster for the next four years. You must remain flexible.

I know its apples and oranges, but look at what the Red Sox just did. They traded way Mookie Betts, a generational player so they could get Reid of a stupid huge contract. In the short term it hurt, in the long term it allows them the flexibility to compete.

Look at the Bears, the feel good story of 2018, everything was great when they got Mack, but now their team is a mess, and they want to trade him and let another top ten defensive pick walk.

This has never been about making it all work under the cap next season, its about what's best for the Chiefs moving forward long term.

[RustShack]

Jones will be back /end thread

[Chieftain]

Letting go of Jones is a mistake. Veach will find a way to sign him without messing up the cap. He was a huge part of our defense's success this year. There is just no way to replace him.

[The Franchise]

Picks 1-15 and another pick? Deal.
Picks 16-32 and another pick? I’m interested but I’d have to see.
2nd rounder and lower? Get fucked.

This obviously entails us not trading him to the Raiders, Broncos, Chargers or Patriots. I would prefer an NFC team or a bottom tier team like the Dolphins.

[smithandrew051]

Picks 1-15 and another pick? Deal.
Picks 16-32 and another pick? I’m interested but I’d have to see.
2nd rounder and lower? Get fucked.

This obviously entails us not trading him to the Raiders, Broncos, Chargers or Patriots. I would prefer an NFC team or a bottom tier team like the Dolphins.

I’d trade him to the Patriots, Ravens, or Texans, but they have to pay a major premium. Multiple first round picks and probably a mid round pick or two. None of them would/can do that though.

[RealSNR]

Picks 1-15 and another pick? Deal.
Picks 16-32 and another pick? I’m interested but I’d have to see.
2nd rounder and lower? Get fucked.

This obviously entails us not trading him to the Raiders, Broncos, Chargers or Patriots. I would prefer an NFC team or a bottom tier team like the Dolphins.

Agreed. Any team that says, "Well, we have this nice 2nd round pick, and we could also offer...." deserves to have its entire locker room infected with CoronaAIDS

[ForeverIowan]

I'd like to see them restructure and keep Sammy Watkins. Keep that young core on offense together for as long as possible. Teams know to beat the Chiefs you need at a minimum 30 (unless Mahomes is playing on one leg). That's tough.

1.) Restructure Sammy
2.) Tag and trade Jones for a first and a third.
3.) Draft Kenneth Murray (Dolphins #23 pick via Jones trade).
4.) Draft JK Dobbins (Chiefs #32 pick).
5.) $20 million saved in cap space from Jones trade and the rest of your draft picks address interior Oline and defense.

[kysirsoze]

They had the GOAT QB on a cheap deal. That's not likely to repeat here.

They had Mahomes on a cheap deal?

[Bump]

Chris Jones is such a beast that I cannot vote against trading him or letting him go. If he stays with us and continues the production, he's a hall of famer. But I also understand that if they have to let him go.

[Chief Northman]

I'd like to see them restructure and keep Sammy Watkins. Keep that young core on offense together for as long as possible. Teams know to beat the Chiefs you need at a minimum 30 (unless Mahomes is playing on one leg). That's tough.

1.) Restructure Sammy
2.) Tag and trade Jones for a first and a third.
3.) Draft Kenneth Murray (Dolphins #23 pick via Jones trade).
4.) Draft JK Dobbins (Chiefs #32 pick).
5.) $20 million saved in cap space from Jones trade and the rest of your draft picks address interior Oline and defense.

If the Chiefs draft Murray at #23 after giving up Jones for that pick, Veach should be shot and pissed on.

Way better prospects at multiple positions than Murray who might not even be a 3 down linebacker.

[ChiefsFanatic]

If Jones was just "very good" and demanded $20 million a year, I think it's tag and trade.

But, Jones is ELITE and hasn't demanded anything yet, and has openly stated that he wants to be here. He needs to be on this team next year.

As an organization we have drafted DT after DT after DT hoping to find an elite talent. We might not draft a comparable replacement for Jones in the next decade.

Until Jones prices himself out of Kansas City, the focus needs to be on keeping him on the roster. I can't believe there are so many people so ready to send him packing.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[duncan_idaho]

Picks 1-15 and another pick? Deal.
Picks 16-32 and another pick? I’m interested but I’d have to see.
2nd rounder and lower? Get ****ed.

This obviously entails us not trading him to the Raiders, Broncos, Chargers or Patriots. I would prefer an NFC team or a bottom tier team like the Dolphins.

^ Nailed it.

[Chargem]

If Jones was just "very good" and demanded $20 million a year, I think it's tag and trade.

But, Jones is ELITE and hasn't demanded anything yet, and has openly stated that he wants to be here. He needs to be on this team next year.

As an organization we have drafted DT after DT after DT hoping to find an elite talent. We might not draft a comparable replacement for Jones in the next decade.

Until Jones prices himself out of Kansas City, the focus needs to be on keeping him on the roster. I can't believe there are so many people so ready to send him packing.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

His market value is definitely in the 18-20m range.

If he was available for 14m, I'd be saying keep him.

Pass rush and pass coverage are both really important. If you blow your wad on Jones and have garbage coverage from corners and linebackers, Jones won't be as effective.

It genuinely blows to lose him, but it looked like the right thing to do as soon as they paid Frank. Sucks that you lose your drafted guy because you paid a FA, but then would we have won it all without both of them on the field for 1 year before Jones became too expensive keep?

[Bill Brasky]

Everyone keeps saying we MUST SIGN HIM without really laying out HOW we’re going to do that.

Jones has elite pass rush, but sub par run instincts. He isn’t elite in both aspects of his game.

[ForeverIowan]

If the Chiefs draft Murray at #23 after giving up Jones for that pick, Veach should be shot and pissed on.

Way better prospects at multiple positions than Murray who might not even be a 3 down linebacker.

We'll agree to disagree. Who would you go after with pick 23? Mahomes is also going to attract some top tier free agent veterans in the coming years that'll take a discount for a chance at a ring. I think its important to keep some cap flexibility to go after them.

[Shields68]

If Jones was just "very good" and demanded $20 million a year, I think it's tag and trade.

But, Jones is ELITE and hasn't demanded anything yet, and has openly stated that he wants to be here. He needs to be on this team next year.

As an organization we have drafted DT after DT after DT hoping to find an elite talent. We might not draft a comparable replacement for Jones in the next decade.

Until Jones prices himself out of Kansas City, the focus needs to be on keeping him on the roster. I can't believe there are so many people so ready to send him packing.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Not sure anyone is willing to send him packing for a bag of chips. Multiple picks including a mid 1st rounder is a pretty good haul. Basically we would be getting a Frank Clark haul. Which is interesting in that trade seems to be one of the main reasons that we need to consider about trading Jones.

But I am with you if there is away to keep him for the next two years without tying up 100 million for the next 5 we probably should do it. The defense is not the same without Jones in the middle. Your not going to replace him and would be taking a step back without him.

[Chief Northman]

We'll agree to disagree. Who would you go after with pick 23? Mahomes is also going to attract some top tier free agent veterans in the coming years that'll take a discount for a chance at a ring. I think its important to keep some cap flexibility to go after them.

To name a few:

D’Andre Swift
Grant Delpit
Xavier McKinney
Trevon Diggs
Josh Jones
Laviska Shenault

[58-4ever]

Unless I get the 20M personally... I'll take Chris Jones. They guy is a one man wrecking crew on the inside.

[58-4ever]

I am wondering if you all would deal Chris Jones for Quenton Nelson and a 3rd round pick?

[ForeverIowan]

To name a few:

D’Andre Swift
Grant Delpit
Xavier McKinney
Trevon Diggs
Josh Jones
Laviska Shenault

Majority of your list is positions we have locked up for foreseeable future (safety, offensive tackle, WR (if we resign Watkins as I suggested)). Makes no sense.

[duncan_idaho]

I am wondering if you all would deal Chris Jones for Quenton Nelson and a 3rd round pick?

that's a hell nah.

Nelson is a beast of a G, but he's still just a G. You don't win playoff games with difference makers on the OL.

[58-4ever]

that's a hell nah.

Nelson is a beast of a G, but he's still just a G. You don't win playoff games with difference makers on the OL.

I tend to agree... but it's an interesting scenario if they would do a draft pick.

[DaFace]

I am wondering if you all would deal Chris Jones for Quenton Nelson and a 3rd round pick?

I'd rather have the Colts 1st and 3rd, but sure, I'd do that.

[DaFace]

that's a hell nah.

Nelson is a beast of a G, but he's still just a G. You don't win playoff games with difference makers on the OL.

Kinda sorta agree. I'm not 100% convinced we win the Super Bowl with Wylie at LG though.

[Chief Roundup]

Name one person off of that vaunted 49er DL, other than Nick Bosa, that you would rather have than Jones. Those guys are all top 1st round draft picks.

[Hoover]

Nelson has two cheap years left and his 5th year option. So yeah, I'd take him and 3rd.

Its the type of player I'd love to try and land.

[DaFace]

Name one person off of that vaunted 49er DL, other than Nick Bosa, that you would rather have than Jones. Those guys are all top 1st round draft picks.

I'm not sure this is the argument you think it is. The 49ers ENTIRE STARTING DL has a total average salary of about what it would cost to keep Jones. So if you're asking me if I could trade Jones for the 49ers DL, the answer is yes in an instant. Otherwise, I'd take Buckner and $15m to spend on other players, yes.

I just think the piece that everyone always ignores in discussions like this is that the salary BUYS OTHER PLAYERS, so any discussion of what you would trade should also consider the difference in cap hit and what else we might be able to do with it.

[duncan_idaho]

If Nelson was a top 5 LT or RT, I could see it. That's value on par with a premium pass rusher.

A freaking guard? No way.

[DaFace]

If Nelson was a top 5 LT or RT, I could see it. That's value on par with a premium pass rusher.

A freaking guard? No way.

...a freaking guard plus $15m to spend on other players.

[Chief Northman]

Majority of your list is positions we have locked up for foreseeable future (safety, offensive tackle, WR (if we resign Watkins as I suggested)). Makes no sense.

I draft for BPA, not need - especially Round 1.

Safety? - you think Sorenson merits being a full time starter? You know Thornhill’s timetable for return?

Corner? - we only have two under contract

RB? - you like the depth behind Williams, let alone believe he is an every down back that can endure 16 games + playoffs? Swift is a perfect weapon for a Reid offense.

Receiver? - Will Watkins be a Chief let alone Robinson? Is Hardman a legit contributor this soon given the limitations in his route running?

Tackle? - Fisher and Schwartz are not getting any younger, and Fisher’s cost is becoming concerning.

[dirk digler]

Fletcher Cox and Grady Jarrett are the highest paid DT's according to over the cap and Cox is going to have a $22 million cap hit the next 3 seasons.

Looking at Jarrett's contract the first 2 years (2019 and 2020) his cap number is low, like $11-12 million and after that it goes up. I imagine that is what Jones contract will be like so I say sign him because the new CBA and TV deals will massively increase the salary cap in the next 1-2 years.

[saphojunkie]

Holy shit that's a lot of people who'd keep Jones. What a terrible fucking idea.

Tag and trade Jones is the top 5 options.

[Chief Roundup]

I'm not sure this is the argument you think it is. The 49ers ENTIRE STARTING DL has a total average salary of about what it would cost to keep Jones. So if you're asking me if I could trade Jones for the 49ers DL, the answer is yes in an instant. Otherwise, I'd take Buckner and $15m to spend on other players, yes.

I just think the piece that everyone always ignores in discussions like this is that the salary BUYS OTHER PLAYERS, so any discussion of what you would trade should also consider the difference in cap hit and what else we might be able to do with it.

You are missing the point, which is that none of those players are as good/dominate as Jones. And we have no idea if a 1st round draft pick is going to be anywhere as good as Jones.
Sure you can get other players for that money difference. You can get players like Hitchens.

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

I don't really want to compare things to the Pats. That was a one off thing that won't happen again. Don't hold this current Chiefs regime up to that to measure success.

If you win multiple SB's, you're in a class with very few. 6 just isn't gonna happen.

Defeatist

[saphojunkie]

I am wondering if you all would deal Chris Jones for Quenton Nelson and a 3rd round pick?

uh... yes

[saphojunkie]

If Nelson was a top 5 LT or RT, I could see it. That's value on par with a premium pass rusher.

A freaking guard? No way.

I don't get the logic in this thread.

"CHIRS JONES IS A MUST SIGN! INTERIOR PASS RUSH IS THE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY!"

Would you trade him for the best interior OL in the league to stop interior pass rush on your Super Bowl MVP quarterback?

"STOPPING THE INTERIOR PASS RUSH IS MEANINGLESS!"

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

Kinda sorta agree. I'm not 100% convinced we win the Super Bowl with Wylie at LG though.

Also Rankin looked solid before his injury

[saphojunkie]

Protecting Mahomes is priority #1. Period.

Here is how I see it:

Chris Jones - elite value as interior pass rusher.

Chiefs defense - uses stunts to create interior pass rush, so there is no guarantee Jones is even RUSHING from the interior.

if creating interior pass rush is the fastest way to success against the pass for defenses, then stopping that interior rush is the fastest way to success for the offense. FACT: If you keep Mahomes protected, he will succeed against every single defense.

The goal for this offseason is not to keep Chris Jones. It is to use Chris Jones to help the team win. If you cannot get good enough value in a trade and decide to sign him, so be it. But absolutely, positively, the best way to use Chris Jones is as a commodity to be traded.

With a simple first and third, you can land a starting CB and OL. With the cap space, you can land more speed on defense, depth at linebacker, and likely a swing OL.

That's not counting what you can do with your own first rounder this year. Filling ONE position with $20M is not how this team wins long term. Filling FOUR starting positions by letting go of one is how you keep your roster young, cheap, healthy, and talented.

Bye, Chris. Thank you for the super bowl, and thank you in advance for the draft capital and cap room.

[Easy 6]

D line is perhaps the hardest position to draft outside of QB, blue chip can’t miss linemen bust hard at an incredible rate

That’s why when you finally unearth a real gem, you don’t go selling them off for another chance to go digging around in the dirt

Legitimate game changers up front are basically fucking unicorns, you keep them if AT ALL possible

Jones is a defensive cornerstone, he stays

[duncan_idaho]

Protecting Mahomes is priority #1. Period.

Here is how I see it:

Chris Jones - elite value as interior pass rusher.

Chiefs defense - uses stunts to create interior pass rush, so there is no guarantee Jones is even RUSHING from the interior.

if creating interior pass rush is the fastest way to success against the pass for defenses, then stopping that interior rush is the fastest way to success for the offense. FACT: If you keep Mahomes protected, he will succeed against every single defense.

The goal for this offseason is not to keep Chris Jones. It is to use Chris Jones to help the team win. If you cannot get good enough value in a trade and decide to sign him, so be it. But absolutely, positively, the best way to use Chris Jones is as a commodity to be traded.

With a simple first and third, you can land a starting CB and OL. With the cap space, you can land more speed on defense, depth at linebacker, and likely a swing OL.

That's not counting what you can do with your own first rounder this year. Filling ONE position with $20M is not how this team wins long term. Filling FOUR starting positions by letting go of one is how you keep your roster young, cheap, healthy, and talented.

Bye, Chris. Thank you for the super bowl, and thank you in advance for the draft capital and cap room.


That’s one path. It isn’t the only path, IMO.

I’ll get into it either way and support it. Great players raise the game of the guys around them.

If the Chiefs keep Jones, they can find a lot of success stories like Emmanuel Ogbah - guys who fit the scheme and give them good production in 1x1 matchups.

They also can get away with a little less talent in the back seven. Again, scheme fits are important, but they can get by without a true lockdown corner of the front 4 is dominant.

Flip side, yeah, if they can move Jones for a 1st and 3rd this year, that’s great value for him. But is that deal out there? Hard to say. They’re saying the right things publicly to maximize their leverage with trading him, though. I’ve had fun playing around with drafts where KC has 4-5 picks in the top 100, too. They can infuse a lot of young talent and also set themselves up to have a big draft class again next year.

Both approaches can be right if executed properly.

I’d be less confident in spending big on Jones if Veach hadn’t shown such a nice eye for finding undervalued talent. Rankin, Ogbah, Ward, etc.

[duncan_idaho]

I don't get the logic in this thread.



"CHIRS JONES IS A MUST SIGN! INTERIOR PASS RUSH IS THE MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY!"



Would you trade him for the best interior OL in the league to stop interior pass rush on your Super Bowl MVP quarterback?



"STOPPING THE INTERIOR PASS RUSH IS MEANINGLESS!"


I mean, that’s a little hyperbolic.

The value of an elite pass rusher - which I think we all agree Jones is, and a unique one at that - is a lot higher than the value of an elite interior OL.

Nelson is a monster, but he’s still an interior guy. Guys like Jones are harder to find and offer more value over an “adequate” or “good” player when compared to a G.

[wachashi]

Protect Mahomes. Give him weapons. If those two things don't happen, KC is an average team. Keeping Jones makes it much more difficult to maximize our greatest strength.

I think the smart, safe decision is to tag and trade him. A late first and a future third would do it for me.

[TribalElder]

I do not want to watch Chris Jones play for the Raiders

This will happen one way or another if he leaves kc

He has a swagger to him that is infectious

Sack Nation

[Buehler445]

slight qualm, Face.

It’s not a first + 20M or Jones.

Part of the 20 has to pay the salary of the first round pick. Depending on where, it could be 3 or 4 mil. So it’s not a huge deal but I think ogbah makes less than that so it isn’t immaterial.

Cycle him out and strengthen different parts of the defense with young, cheaper talent.

We need to get out of this thought-process of keeping expensive talent because the team will struggle without one guy.

The only guy this team can't lose is Mahomes. The rest are all moveable pieces.

I’ve been barking up this tree awhile. Jones has endeared himself to me, especially if he’s below Donald money. But on the whole this is where I am. And honestly I don’t think the DL can have Clark AND Jones.

I'm not sure this is the argument you think it is. The 49ers ENTIRE STARTING DL has a total average salary of about what it would cost to keep Jones. So if you're asking me if I could trade Jones for the 49ers DL, the answer is yes in an instant. Otherwise, I'd take Buckner and $15m to spend on other players, yes.

I just think the piece that everyone always ignores in discussions like this is that the salary BUYS OTHER PLAYERS, so any discussion of what you would trade should also consider the difference in cap hit and what else we might be able to do with it.

Like I said, I’ve been barking up this tree awhile.

I’d rather have solid if unspectacular players at every position than a BAMF and schmucks.

If you have a part of your defense that is consistently exploitable, you’re fucked. Granted a fair percentage of coaching staffs are too stupid to take advantage but the ones that can will be there when it matters.

Also, RE: Spags Giants DLs that were chalk full of good dudes, IIRC it was one dude getting paid then rookie contracts. So there wasn’t a ton of money there.

[Fat Elvis]

Holy shit that's a lot of people who'd keep Jones. What a terrible ****ing idea.

Tag and trade Jones is the top 5 options.

I am wondering if you all would deal Chris Jones for Quenton Nelson and a 3rd round pick?

uh... yes

https://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/09/08/0ap3000000840999.gif

[DaFace]

slight qualm, Face.



It’s not a first + 20M or Jones.



Part of the 20 has to pay the salary of the first round pick. Depending on where, it could be 3 or 4 mil. So it’s not a huge deal but I think ogbah makes less than that so it isn’t immaterial.

I chose the scenario for simplicity (I'd also bet we could get more than a first for him, which kind of goes the other direction), but yeah, I'll concede that one. It's relatively minor, but not inconsequential.

[BigRedChief]

If the Cards offer up the 9th overall pick.....then sure. But I don’t see any team doing that. I think we might be able to pull a 1st rounder from the Dolphins but I’m not sure they’d give up the middle one.no fucking way we are getting the 9th pick in the draft for Jones. ESPN “experts” were saying a 2nd rounder.

[BigRedChief]

https://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/09/08/0ap3000000840999.gifman the quality of players we acquire in the draft that make us happy is vastly different these days.

[Chief Roundup]

Protecting Mahomes is priority #1. Period.

Here is how I see it:

Chris Jones - elite value as interior pass rusher.

Chiefs defense - uses stunts to create interior pass rush, so there is no guarantee Jones is even RUSHING from the interior.

if creating interior pass rush is the fastest way to success against the pass for defenses, then stopping that interior rush is the fastest way to success for the offense. FACT: If you keep Mahomes protected, he will succeed against every single defense.

The goal for this offseason is not to keep Chris Jones. It is to use Chris Jones to help the team win. If you cannot get good enough value in a trade and decide to sign him, so be it. But absolutely, positively, the best way to use Chris Jones is as a commodity to be traded.

With a simple first and third, you can land a starting CB and OL. With the cap space, you can land more speed on defense, depth at linebacker, and likely a swing OL.

That's not counting what you can do with your own first rounder this year. Filling ONE position with $20M is not how this team wins long term. Filling FOUR starting positions by letting go of one is how you keep your roster young, cheap, healthy, and talented.

Bye, Chris. Thank you for the super bowl, and thank you in advance for the draft capital and cap room.

Winning more Super Bowls is #1 priority. Mahomes had a good year behind this OL. Some minor upgrades should be good enough. Especially as much as he rolls out of the pocket.
How many passes did Jones knock down which caused the end of a drive in the Super Bowl?
An elite player such as Chris Jones is much more important than an OL when you have an elite QB.

[The Franchise]

no fucking way we are getting the 9th pick in the draft for Jones. ESPN “experts” were saying a 2nd rounder.

And experts don’t know shit at this point.

[BlackOp]

ESPN “experts” were saying a 2nd rounder.

Yeah...the 2nd best DL in the NFL is only worth a 2nd rounder.

Maybe KC can flip that pick for the 5th or 6th rated DL rookie...

Can the Chiefs offer the Rams a 2nd for Darnold...or Mack?

KC can push money into the future...and the cap will continue to grow. QB contracts might be completely re-worked with the new CBA.

Keep Jones/Pennel and let your role players get paid elsewhere....Breeland/Fuller. Draft CBs...they have 3 picks in the top 64.

Premiere DL is just too hard to find...

[BigRedChief]

Remember how pissed we were when King Carl traded Jared Allen because he didn’t want to pay him? Ended up getting Jamal Charles and Brandon Albert with the pics in the trade. Veach is way way better in making the right picks than King Carl. Just sayin.

[RealSNR]

Remember how pissed we were when King Carl traded Jared Allen because he didn’t want to pay him? Ended up getting Jamal Charles and Brandon Albert with the pics in the trade. Veach is way way better in making the right picks than King Carl. Just sayin.

That's what people are saying. Jared Allen got a 1st and two 3rds. Khalil Mack got the Raiders a stupid fucking amount of draft picks. Frank Clark got a 1st and a 2nd.

ESPN thinks it's appropriate that Chris Jones only gets a 2nd?

Must have been "Bring your idiot babbling toddler to work" Day in Bristol, CT

[BlackOp]

Remember how pissed we were when King Carl traded Jared Allen because he didn’t want to pay him? Ended up getting Jamal Charles and Brandon Albert with the pics in the trade. Veach is way way better in making the right picks than King Carl. Just sayin.

The core of KC's defense should be HB, Clark, Jones and Pennel. Everyone else is expendable/replaceable.

Spags has had an entire year to evaluate his roster...it'll be an interesting draft. Landing a play-making LBer would go a long way...

[Buehler445]

The core of KC's defense should be HB, Clark, Jones and Pennel. Everyone else is expendable/replaceable.

Spags has had an entire year to evaluate his roster...it'll be an interesting draft. Landing a play-making LBer would go a long way...

They’re not expendable though.

You can’t roll out Phillip Gaines and 300 year old Ron Parker.

What about Marcus Cooper? He’s probably available. Hell just fill them in with an XFL secondary.

If it’s that way man. Damien Wilson is better than Reggie Ragland. That’s not nothing.

[BlackOp]

They’re not expendable though.

You can’t roll out Phillip Gaines and 300 year old Ron Parker.

What about Marcus Cooper? He’s probably available. Hell just fill them in with an XFL secondary.

If it’s that way man. Damien Wilson is better than Reggie Ragland. That’s not nothing.

I just saw a mock where 3 of the top 10 picks were DL...3 QBs and 3 OT.

Where would Jones be drafted...knowing what we know now? Top 5...Chiefs need to keep him.

[Buehler445]

I just saw a mock where 3 of the top 10 picks were DL...3 QBs and 3 OT.

Where would Jones be drafted...knowing what we know now? Top 5...Chiefs need to keep him.

Man I’d sure like to. I just don’t think it’s in the cards

[58-4ever]

Everyone keeps saying we MUST SIGN HIM without really laying out HOW we’re going to do that.

Jones has elite pass rush, but sub par run instincts. He isn’t elite in both aspects of his game.

Maaaan, I disagree... In fact, I've seen a few different ways that the HOW happens. We really don't know a ton before the new CBA happens. Most folks aren't thinking about that part.

[dirk digler]

Protecting Mahomes is priority #1. Period.

Here is how I see it:

Chris Jones - elite value as interior pass rusher.

Chiefs defense - uses stunts to create interior pass rush, so there is no guarantee Jones is even RUSHING from the interior.

if creating interior pass rush is the fastest way to success against the pass for defenses, then stopping that interior rush is the fastest way to success for the offense. FACT: If you keep Mahomes protected, he will succeed against every single defense.

The goal for this offseason is not to keep Chris Jones. It is to use Chris Jones to help the team win. If you cannot get good enough value in a trade and decide to sign him, so be it. But absolutely, positively, the best way to use Chris Jones is as a commodity to be traded.

With a simple first and third, you can land a starting CB and OL. With the cap space, you can land more speed on defense, depth at linebacker, and likely a swing OL.

That's not counting what you can do with your own first rounder this year. Filling ONE position with $20M is not how this team wins long term. Filling FOUR starting positions by letting go of one is how you keep your roster young, cheap, healthy, and talented.

Bye, Chris. Thank you for the super bowl, and thank you in advance for the draft capital and cap room.

The goal is to repeat and Jones cap hit won't be $20M this year. Clark's cap hit this past season was $6.5 so I would expect Jones's cap number to be fairly low the first 2 years then go up exponentially after that. But by that time the new CBA and TV deals will be done.

I can't believe people are so willingly to let home grown elite talent get away.

[Buehler445]

The goal is to repeat and Jones cap hit won't be $20M this year. Clark's cap hit this past season was $6.5 so I would expect Jones's cap number to be fairly low the first 2 years then go up exponentially after that. But by that time the new CBA and TV deals will be done.

I can't believe people are so willingly to let home grown elite talent get away.

I think a lot the groundwork was laid when Clark was signed. I just don't know how you can pay 2 dudes on a 4 dude DL at the top of the market.

Part of it is there remains a lot of apprehension (myself included) due to the whole Houston/Berry fuckfests. My god those were bad contracts. The results of which we're still feeling.

[Sofa King]

What's the success rate of picks 15-32? I bet it isn't very high.

So all of you want to give up Chris Jones to take a shot or two in the dark, plus sign a couple mid-tier players that we didn't need this year anyways. Or resign Watkins who is barely completes a season anymore.


Would all of you be happy with what Seattle got for Frank Clark? Because this is what happens in the draft. You never know what you're going to get. It's easy to say "draft a tackle, CB and MLB and you fix 3 positions for the cost of 1!" Shit doesn't work out like that and you're likely to miss with most of the draft picks. Yeah, "trust Veach" is popular right now but all it takes is a couple misses for you all to shit on him.

Chiefs trade:
1st round pick (2019, 29th overall)
3rd round pick (2019, 92nd overall)
2nd round pick (2020)


Seahawks trade:
Defensive end Frank Clark
3rd round pick (2019, 84th overall)

Over the course of draft weekend, the unidentified pieces were unveiled. The Seahawks stayed in place and used the Chiefs extra first round pick on L.J. Collier. In the third round, the Chiefs stayed in place and grabbed small-school defensive lineman Khalen Saunders. A few picks later, the Seahawks traded the Chiefs former third round pick along with a fifth to move up and take Utah linebacker Cody Barton.


"All season long, Collier has struggled to get on the field despite being drafted to fill the very presence of the player they traded away in Frank Clark. So far, Collier has 2 tackles in 140 total snaps, playing sparingly over a total of 9 games. For some games, he’s been a healthy scratch."

"In fact, until a recent injury to Kendricks, Barton had scarcely earned any defensive snaps in an actual game. Through 11 games, he’d been a solid special teams contributor but only had 7 snaps to his name. He filled in for Kendricks in Week 12 and even started for him thereafter. He then moved to the middle to fill in for Bobby Wagner after he suffered an ankle injury in Week 14."

[RunKC]

If we are able to keep Jones and use our first pick on a quality corner like Gladney, Diggs, Johnson, etc? My god. That pass rush with Landlord, Thornhill, Fenton, Ward and a top Corner?

Damn that would be ideal.

Corner, IOL and another receiver with our first 3 picks, then use FA and a mid rd pick on some speed at LB.

[Sofa King]

Not many big contracts coming up in the near future. A couple next year, maybe. 2021 will free up a ton because we can move on from several high dollar players if we so choose.

2021 Free Agents

Sammy Watkins
Terrell Suggs
Cameron Erving
Patrick Mahomes
Daniel Sorensen
Damien Wilson
Damien Williams
Dustin Colquitt
Austin Reiter
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Anthony Lanier
Elijah McGuire
Devaroe Lawrence
Demone Harris
Gehrig Dieter
Chris Lammons
Darrel Williams
Ben Niemann
Charvarius Ward
Jackson Barton
Alex Brown
Ryan Hunter
Byron Pringle
Emmanuel Smith
Mike Weber
Alize Mack
Kyle Shurmur
Braxton Hoyett
Marcus Marshall
Nick Keizer
Jody Fortson

2022 Free Agents
Tyrann Mathieu
Eric Fisher
Mitchell Schwartz
Travis Kelce
Alex Okafor
Breeland Speaks
Derrick Nnadi
James Winchester
Martinas Rankin
Dorian O'Daniel
Armani Watts
Greg Senat
Darius Harris
Felton Davis
Tim Ward
John Lovett

[wachashi]

The Chiefs have to draft well, whether they keep Jones or not. The fact the Seahawks may have whiffed on Collier has no bearing whatsoever on the Chris Jones dilemma in KC. Championship teams draft well. That goes without saying.

[wachashi]

When five players account for 58 percent of the team's salary cap, there is virtually no room to account for injuries or under performance within that group. On top of that, the players you're able to put around that group of superstars are less coveted.

Injuries and player performance drop-offs are just too common in the NFL for me to want to create a top-heavy roster in which you're basically all-in on five players.

[Rausch]

I think a lot the groundwork was laid when Clark was signed. I just don't know how you can pay 2 dudes on a 4 dude DL at the top of the market.



The 49'ers did it...

[Sofa King]

When five players account for 58 percent of the team's salary cap, there is virtually no room to account for injuries or under performance within that group. On top of that, the players you're able to put around that group of superstars are less coveted.

Injuries and player performance drop-offs are just too common in the NFL for me to want to create a top-heavy roster in which you're basically all-in on five players.

The only reason there aren't more teams like that is because most teams don't have 5 players worth those contracts.

[wachashi]

The only reason there aren't more teams like that is because most teams don't have 5 players worth those contracts.

So the salary cap is a myth, right? This is the worst argument.

[Sofa King]

So the salary cap is a myth, right? This is the worst argument.

How so? My point was most teams don't have 5 players worth these contracts. Is that not true?

[Buehler445]

The 49'ers did it...

They have 5 dudes with 10M against their cap. We have 8.

And there is a substantial difference between the 14 and 15 that Ford and Buckner will put on there and the 20+ that Jones will have, coupled with Clarks 22.7M.

Note: those are 2020 numbers from overthecap.com

[DaFace]

I think a lot the groundwork was laid when Clark was signed. I just don't know how you can pay 2 dudes on a 4 dude DL at the top of the market.



Part of it is there remains a lot of apprehension (myself included) due to the whole Houston/Berry fuckfests. My god those were bad contracts. The results of which we're still feeling.Exactly. It's crazy that Berry is still costing us $8m next year. :shake:

[RunKC]

When five players account for 58 percent of the team's salary cap, there is virtually no room to account for injuries or under performance within that group. On top of that, the players you're able to put around that group of superstars are less coveted.

Injuries and player performance drop-offs are just too common in the NFL for me to want to create a top-heavy roster in which you're basically all-in on five players.

I think it will be a year-by-year deal to not let that happen, assuming we sign Chris Jones.

2020-Chris Jones and Pat Mahomes low cap hit
2021-Extend Kelce and Matheiu. Structure gauranteed money and have their cap hits low for this season.
2022-Schwartz and Fisher are FA’s. Hitchens can be cut

We got $10 million this year from Fisher and Hitchens restructuring salary to signing bonuses. They could do that with Frank Clark one year to free up space too.

Starting to believe we can keep Chris.

[wachashi]

I think it will be a year-by-year deal to not let that happen, assuming we sign Chris Jones.

2020-Chris Jones and Pat Mahomes low cap hit
2021-Extend Kelce and Matheiu. Structure gauranteed money and have their cap hits low for this season.
2022-Schwartz and Fisher are FA’s. Hitchens can be cut

We got $10 million this year from Fisher and Hitchens restructuring salary to signing bonuses. They could do that with Frank Clark one year to free up space too.

Starting to believe we can keep Chris.

We got $10 million in cap relief in the short term, but still have to pay that money in future years. Restructuring just kicks the can down the road to provide immediate relief. It's a band-aid. It does not wipe away the risks an extremely top-heavy roster carries with it.

[The Franchise]

They have 5 dudes with 10M against their cap. We have 8.

And there is a substantial difference between the 14 and 15 that Ford and Buckner will put on there and the 20+ that Jones will have, coupled with Clarks 22.7M.

Note: those are 2020 numbers from overthecap.com

Yeah but they also have Arik Armstead as a FA this year and Solomon Thomas as a FA next year. They’re going to have to make decisions just like us.

[The Franchise]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;One thing to keep in mind.. He just won his Super Bowl.. He&#39;s got the ring.. What do people want when they&#39;ve already got the ring? They&#39;re going to get that bag&quot; - former <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bills?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Bills</a> All Pro DT Kyle Williams on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> stud DT Chris Jones <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PatMcAfeeShowLIVE?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PatMcAfeeShowLIVE</a> <a href="https://t.co/OkSDr8NxVJ">pic.twitter.com/OkSDr8NxVJ</a></p>&mdash; Pat McAfee (@PatMcAfeeShow) <a href="https://twitter.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1230152174841233409?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[The Franchise]

Exactly. It's crazy that Berry is still costing us $8m next year. :shake:


And we’re fourth in the league in dead cap amounts. Fourth because of one fucking player.

[Buehler445]

Yeah but they also have Arik Armstead as a FA this year and Solomon Thomas as a FA next year. They’re going to have to make decisions just like us.

I'm aware of that. I was just responding to Rausch who used them as an example.

Bottom line is math doesn't lie.

[Buehler445]

I think it will be a year-by-year deal to not let that happen, assuming we sign Chris Jones.

2020-Chris Jones and Pat Mahomes low cap hit
2021-Extend Kelce and Matheiu. Structure gauranteed money and have their cap hits low for this season.
2022-Schwartz and Fisher are FA’s. Hitchens can be cut

We got $10 million this year from Fisher and Hitchens restructuring salary to signing bonuses. They could do that with Frank Clark one year to free up space too.

Starting to believe we can keep Chris.

If they can make that kind of calculus work, I'd be OK with it.

[The Franchise]

I'm aware of that. I was just responding to Rausch who used them as an example.

Bottom line is math doesn't lie.

I was just adding to yours.

And the 49ers are going to have fun when Bosa wants a new deal.

[RunKC]

We got $10 million in cap relief in the short term, but still have to pay that money in future years. Restructuring just kicks the can down the road to provide immediate relief. It's a band-aid. It does not wipe away the risks an extremely top-heavy roster carries with it.

No matter what your cap looks like, it will be imperative to draft well and find value in trades/FA.

Veach has done a nice job doing that in 2 years. If he keeps doing that at a functional level, we’ll be fine.

Think of the Steelers over the years. Not much going on from them in FA aside from smaller moves. Heavy emphasis on the draft.

I think that’s a model for us to use.

[Buehler445]

I was just adding to yours.

And the 49ers are going to have fun when Bosa wants a new deal.

Ah. I'm too dumb to read.

It will be cheap to cut Garoppolo at that point, which is what they might want to do.

That will make the math easier. :D

[Dunerdr]

I'd love to keep Jones but i think its realistic to think he gets traded for a first and a third. I also think Spags will generate interior pressure the same way he always did prior to jones, roll a DE over to DT and send him.

[Halfcan]

After reading all the back and forth on Jones, it seems everyone wants him to play with the Chiefs but don't want to be in Cap Hell over it.

[smithandrew051]

Yeah but they also have Arik Armstead as a FA this year and Solomon Thomas as a FA next year. They’re going to have to make decisions just like us.

I would argue that Solomon Thomas is not a tough decision to make.

6 career sacks for the 3rd overall pick. That’s an easy decision to make. Buh bye.

[notorious]

Exactly. It's crazy that Berry is still costing us $8m next year. :shake:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/31/c2/0231c2c7738901cc187da1dc2f4d9e32.gif

[The Franchise]

I would argue that Solomon Thomas is not a tough decision to make.

6 career sacks for the 3rd overall pick. That’s an easy decision to make. Buh bye.

It all depends on what they have at DT at that point and what he wants for a contract.

[ljmhawk]

if the RB Dobbins from Ohio State is at pick #32 the chiefs need to draft him.

[wachashi]

Looks like the Spirit of Eric Berry will likely be a top 10 cap hit for the Chiefs in 2020. Just a little reminder of how big money contracts can sometimes bite you in the ass and not let go for a few years.

[Chief Northman]

if the RB Dobbins from Ohio State is at pick #32 the chiefs need to draft him.

If he checks out medically, I prefer Swift. He is more elusive and catches the ball cleaner. I’m not seeing RB as a priority pick at #32, but these guys arguably could be the BPA at that pick depending how the board falls.

[Chief Roundup]

Exactly. It's crazy that Berry is still costing us $8m next year. :shake:

Why does everyone keep saying next year? It is this year as we are in 2020.

[Chief Roundup]

if the RB Dobbins from Ohio State is at pick #32 the chiefs need to draft him.

No we don't. Not at all. We do not need to draft a RB until day 3 if we draft one at all.

[DaFace]

Why does everyone keep saying next year? It is this year as we are in 2020.

I'm currently in "we won the Super Bowl!" mode, not "we're fighting to get to the Super Bowl" mode. Therefore, the 2020 year is still "next year." :)

Also, to get technical about it, the 2020 league year doesn't start until March 18th.

[TribalElder]

If berry comes back into the league next season does that help get rid of our cap failure

also RE: Next year

The official start of the 2020 NFL year is March 18 when free agency kicks off.

[DaFace]

If berry comes back into the league next season does that help get rid of our cap failure

also RE: Next year

The official start of the 2020 NFL year is March 18 when free agency kicks off.

Unfortunately, no. The $8m is his prorated signing bonus, and we can't take that back, nor will another team signing him affect that.

[Chief Roundup]

I'm currently in "we won the Super Bowl!" mode, not "we're fighting to get to the Super Bowl" mode. Therefore, the 2020 year is still "next year." :)

Also, to get technical about it, the 2020 league year doesn't start until March 18th.

That win lasted a few days. Not even a week before I was in the mode to see us try and do it again.
And the "technical" part makes me think of people that work over nights and say "It is not the next day until after I have been to sleep".

[smithandrew051]

No we don't. Not at all. We do not need to draft a RB until day 3 if we draft one at all.

Upgrading the interior OL will be more beneficial to the running game than grabbing a RB early.

Williams, Thompson, and a rookie RB with a better interior OL is more than good enough when you have Mahomes and Reid.

[Chief Roundup]

Upgrading the interior OL will be more beneficial to the running game than grabbing a RB early.

Williams, Thompson, and a rookie RB with a better interior OL is more than good enough when you have Mahomes and Reid.

Williams, Williams, Thompson, McGuire would definitely be more effective with an improved OL.

[Monticore]

the Oilers still won the cup after trading Gretzky.

Monti

[OKchiefs]

Now that we’ve already won a super bowl I personally feel less desperate to have to run out there in 2020 and win it again. Of course it would be nice to win again in 2020 and I hope it happens, but I’m more concerned now with maintaining the long term health of the roster. Instead of trying to load up again in 2020 at the expense of potential future talent and depth, I’d rather make the moves needed to stockpile talent/depth long term. So as much as I’d love to have Chris Jones, unless he takes $15 million a year I don’t see how you can sink $40 million+ a year into two players on the DL. Assuming we can capitalize on the draft capital and not take another Breeland Speaks, adding a 1st and 3rd and maybe even trading out of our current 1st round pick for additional picks gives us a lot of ammunition to fill out the roster. We already haven’t had a 1st round pick since 2017 and we have a lot of free agents, leaving us in a position where the depth and/or talent on the roster at certain positions could become perilously thin. Going from a single pick in rounds 1, 2, & 3 to a 1st, two 2nd, two 3rd, two 4th, etc. plus the cap savings from not adding a $20 million a year contract that can be spread among several positions/players IMO helps more in the long run than a single player not named Mahomes.

[pugsnotdrugs19]

FWIW, Louis Riddick said on ESPN today that Jones was a guy that the Chiefs were “desperately trying to re-sign” right now.

Also said if he did somehow hit the market, he should be maybe the top free agent on the market for teams to go after.

[The Franchise]

I’ve come to the conclusion that you pay Chris Jones. Dude is fucking 25 and just hitting his peak. You don’t let those players go. We need to stop acting like we can’t afford it. There are ways to maneuver the cap. Dude was a trooper and showed up to camp because Veach told him that he would work on a new deal. Jones held up his end of the deal....now you pay the man.

[saphojunkie]

I mean, that’s a little hyperbolic.

The value of an elite pass rusher - which I think we all agree Jones is, and a unique one at that - is a lot higher than the value of an elite interior OL.

Nelson is a monster, but he’s still an interior guy. Guys like Jones are harder to find and offer more value over an “adequate” or “good” player when compared to a G.

Fair point. I guess here's the problem with my logic:

There are only a handful of interior beasts who rush the passer. Having an OG who can shut that down will only matter in 3-4 games, if that, barring injury.

Whereas if you HAVE one of those beasts, you have that value in 19 games, barring injury.

So, there's the disconnect. I get it.

But, if you gave me the option of sacking the other team's QB or never having Mahomes sacked, I'll keep Mahomes upright. If we had a "no sack" game in the playoffs, I'm betting HARD on Mahomes winning that shootout.

[mcaj22]

as someone who hated the contracts of Berry, Houston, Maclin,Tamba and DJ extensions, etc... I still say you keep Jones and cut whatever bums equal in cap value. (Watkins, LDT Sorenson, whomever.) No matter what combo of players you assemble with that 20 million, they wont be close to Chris Jones.

[Hoover]

Forget Pat and Gracie, she needs to starting Jones so he takes a team friendly deal!

[saphojunkie]

The goal is to repeat and Jones cap hit won't be $20M this year. Clark's cap hit this past season was $6.5 so I would expect Jones's cap number to be fairly low the first 2 years then go up exponentially after that. But by that time the new CBA and TV deals will be done.

I can't believe people are so willingly to let home grown elite talent get away.

I don't want to go into cap hell in two years, either. And trading your player for high picks is not letting them get away. It's using your capital wisely to better your team.

I don't think people realize how close the offensive line is to falling off the cliff. Chris Jones is an absolute beast, and I love him, but it's just irresponsible to have two players on the DL making $100M. That's thinking with your heart and not your mind.

There's a chance it happens, but were I GM it'd be the last option just before letting him walk for nothing but a comp pick.

[Chief Roundup]

So since the CBA is expiring and it is common knowledge, belief, that the cap will go up dramatically after that and that there might be a separate provisioned area for QBs, we should be able to pay Jones and Mahomes.

[Chief Roundup]

And trading your player for high picks is not letting them get away. It's using your capital wisely to better your team.

If those player/players that you draft work out, which generally doesn't happen right away and in lots of cases doesn't happen at all.

[DaFace]

So since the CBA is expiring and it is common knowledge, belief, that the cap will go up dramatically after that and that there might be a separate provisioned area for QBs, we should be able to pay Jones and Mahomes.

The problem is that it's not GUARANTEED that it will go up dramatically, so it's hard to give out huge contracts with the possibility it could hamstring us.

But then, that's also why these discussions are hard - we just don't know the constraints.

[saphojunkie]

I’ve come to the conclusion that you pay Chris Jones. Dude is fucking 25 and just hitting his peak. You don’t let those players go. We need to stop acting like we can’t afford it. There are ways to maneuver the cap. Dude was a trooper and showed up to camp because Veach told him that he would work on a new deal. Jones held up his end of the deal....now you pay the man.

This reasoning is emotional, and therefor I do not trust it.

I know you all WANT to keep Jones, and it might happen. If it does, great. I will be happy to cheer for him. But make no mistake, it is not the most prudent move.

In a game massively affected by injury, you are tying a TON of capital up in the health of one man. If you trade for a 1st and two 3rds (a la Jared Allen), plus have $15M to spend on free agents (after paying your new 1st rounder), then you might potentially have 5 or 6 players who can START for this team. That is a significant diversification of risk, as well as a significant diversification of potential.

If you sign Jones, you are guaranteed one elite player. If you trade him, you have the potential to have an elite player at multiple positions.

[mnchiefsguy]

Picks 1-15 and another pick? Deal.
Picks 16-32 and another pick? I’m interested but I’d have to see.
2nd rounder and lower? Get ****ed.

This obviously entails us not trading him to the Raiders, Broncos, Chargers or Patriots. I would prefer an NFC team or a bottom tier team like the Dolphins.

Yep.

[saphojunkie]

If those player/players that you draft work out, which generally doesn't happen right away and in lots of cases doesn't happen at all.

Kelce
Hill
Hunt
Jones
Thornhill
Hardman

All of those worked out, and none of them were even first rounders. In a vacuum, you're right. But this isn't in a vacuum. This regime has shown a consistent ability to identify, acquire, and develop talent.

Those are just the elite players, much less the guys like Chavarious Ward, Breeland, LDT, Mitchell Schwartz, Mike Pennel... guys that were identified and brought in to surprising success.

I know the response is going to be "exactly! Sign Jones and find those guys!" Okay, great.. but you're applying the same logic as me: trust that Veach will identify talent and bring them in while making the cap work. I just have MORE faith in his ability to do that with multiple day 1 and 2 picks, as well as financial flexibility. I want Veach to have more capital, not less.

[BossChief]

The OL could use a couple upgrades, but they are a top 10 OL as it sits right now by just re-signing Wis. I could see them using a pick on a center, but that’s about it.

[BossChief]

Forget Pat and Gracie, she needs to starting Jones so he takes a team friendly deal!

?

[Chief Roundup]

The OL could use a couple upgrades, but they are a top 10 OL as it sits right now by just re-signing Wis. I could see them using a pick on a center, but that’s about it.

Isn't that the position Allegretti was drafted to fill?

[The Franchise]

This reasoning is emotional, and therefor I do not trust it.

I know you all WANT to keep Jones, and it might happen. If it does, great. I will be happy to cheer for him. But make no mistake, it is not the most prudent move.

In a game massively affected by injury, you are tying a TON of capital up in the health of one man. If you trade for a 1st and two 3rds (a la Jared Allen), plus have $15M to spend on free agents (after paying your new 1st rounder), then you might potentially have 5 or 6 players who can START for this team. That is a significant diversification of risk, as well as a significant diversification of potential.

If you sign Jones, you are guaranteed one elite player. If you trade him, you have the potential to have an elite player at multiple positions.

You’re trading an elite player for what basically amounts to lottery tickets.

[Chief Roundup]

Kelce
Hill
Hunt
Jones
Thornhill
Hardman

All of those worked out, and none of them were even first rounders. In a vacuum, you're right. But this isn't in a vacuum. This regime has shown a consistent ability to identify, acquire, and develop talent.

Those are just the elite players, much less the guys like Chavarious Ward, Breeland, LDT, Mitchell Schwartz, Mike Pennel... guys that were identified and brought in to surprising success.

I know the response is going to be "exactly! Sign Jones and find those guys!" Okay, great.. but you're applying the same logic as me: trust that Veach will identify talent and bring them in while making the cap work. I just have MORE faith in his ability to do that with multiple day 1 and 2 picks, as well as financial flexibility. I want Veach to have more capital, not less.

I would rather have the elite talent that is Chris Jones that is a bigger difference maker than any one of those players and possibly even all them together.

[TEX]

I would rather have the elite talent that is Chris Jones that is a bigger difference maker than any one of those players and possibly even all them together.

:thumb:

[wachashi]

You’re trading an elite player for what basically amounts to lottery tickets.

A long-term deal with Jones is a bet on his continued elite output and health. A "lottery ticket," as you put it, but one with significant downside risk.

[Halfcan]

I would rather have the elite talent that is Chris Jones that is a bigger difference maker than any one of those players and possibly even all them together.

We have only had a half of a year in the last decade where the defense was not a complete liability. And we won a Superbowl with it.

You lock up Jones, Nadi, Clark, Pennel and Honey Badger for the next several years- that is a championship core right there.

[wachashi]

I would rather have the elite talent that is Chris Jones that is a bigger difference maker than any one of those players and possibly even all them together.

You would rather have Chris Jones than Kelce, Hill, Hunt, Thornhill, and Hardman combined? Good Lord, that is crazy talk.

[The Franchise]

A long-term deal with Jones is a bet on his continued elite output and health. A "lottery ticket," as you put it, but one with significant downside risk.

Then you can make the same argument for Mahomes.

[wachashi]

There is a severe Fear Of Missing Out that is prevalent in this thread. People cannot stand the thought of Jones producing for another team, and they'd rather possibly torpedo the Chiefs roster to ensure that he doesn't.

There is a reasonable argument for keeping Jones and for trading him. But man, saying he's more valuable than Kelce, Hill, Hunt, Thrornhill, and Hardman TOGETHER is nuts.

[The Franchise]

Jesus Christ. You could trade for draft picks that could be Hill, Kelce, Hardman, Thornhill and Hunt!!!

You could also draft players like Speaks, O’Daniel, Jehu Chesson and Russell.

[wachashi]

Then you can make the same argument for Mahomes.

Yep, I'm not saying you can't. Mahomes is our lottery ticket. It's the ticket with the best upside in the league, and the one that every other GM would love to have their hands on. But the future is not guaranteed.

[smithandrew051]

Then you can make the same argument for Mahomes.

Except elite QBs impact the game far more and take less physical punishment than a DT, which prolongs their careers.

Mahomes could lose some athleticism and still be an elite QB. We’ve seen guys like Brady and Brees stay effective for 15+ years.

DT’s are essentially in a car wreck every Sunday. Betting on a DT’s health is much riskier.

[DaFace]

For those who are strongly advocating for signing Jones, does our experience with Houston not terrify you? He had 22 sacks, got paid, then proceeded to be hurt every year and never topped 10 sacks again. Sub in Eric Berry if you want another example.

What about Jones makes you confident that he's not going to fall apart similarly? I get the "draft picks are lottery tickets" take, but I don't understand how signing a guy like Jones to a huge contract is any different. And the former option comes with a bag of money.

[The Franchise]

Except elite QBs impact the game far more and take less physical punishment than a DT, which prolongs their careers.

Mahomes could lose some athleticism and still be an elite QB. We’ve seen guys like Brady and Brees stay effective for 15+ years.

DT’s are essentially in a car wreck every Sunday. Betting on a DT’s health is much riskier.

Every player that signs a large contract is a risk.

[RunKC]

For those who are strongly advocating for signing Jones, does our experience with Houston not terrify you? He had 22 sacks, got paid, then proceeded to be hurt every year and never topped 10 sacks again. Sub in Eric Berry if you want another example.

What about Jones makes you confident that he's not going to fall apart similarly? I get the "draft picks are lottery tickets" take, but I don't understand how signing a guy like Jones to a huge contract is any different. And the former option comes with a bag of money.

To be fair, Houston sustained a devastating injury. It wasn’t just a normal ACL tear.

That ruined his lateral agility. It took him 2 years to get back from that injury and was never the same after that.

[smithandrew051]

Every player that signs a large contract is a risk.

Well obviously, but the risk of injury is far less with a QB than a DT. If your QB is breaking down due to physical punishment, it’s probably a failure of the entire organization. DTs will break down far earlier.

[The Franchise]

For those who are strongly advocating for signing Jones, does our experience with Houston not terrify you? He had 22 sacks, got paid, then proceeded to be hurt every year and never topped 10 sacks again. Sub in Eric Berry if you want another example.

What about Jones makes you confident that he's not going to fall apart similarly? I get the "draft picks are lottery tickets" take, but I don't understand how signing a guy like Jones to a huge contract is any different. And the former option comes with a bag of money.

So do you never pay any of your defensive players?

Injuries happen. It’s all about how you structure the contracts.

Dorsey was fucking shit at contracts.

[smithandrew051]

For those who are strongly advocating for signing Jones, does our experience with Houston not terrify you? He had 22 sacks, got paid, then proceeded to be hurt every year and never topped 10 sacks again. Sub in Eric Berry if you want another example.

What about Jones makes you confident that he's not going to fall apart similarly? I get the "draft picks are lottery tickets" take, but I don't understand how signing a guy like Jones to a huge contract is any different. And the former option comes with a bag of money.

Technically, signing Jones costs you both draft picks and money.

We are foregoing draft picks that we could acquire for Jones. Those picks will not belong to the Chiefs if we sign Jones.

So, by betting on Jones, we’re risking both the money he signs for AND the draft picks we could received in return for him.

[The Franchise]

Technically, signing Jones costs you both draft picks and money.

We are foregoing draft picks that we could acquire for Jones. Those picks will not belong to the Chiefs if we sign Jones.

So, by betting on Jones, we’re risking both the money he signs for AND the draft picks we could received in return for him.

Oh Jesus Christ. This is a fucking moronic way of looking at it.

[Chief Roundup]

You would rather have Chris Jones than Kelce, Hill, Hunt, Thornhill, and Hardman combined? Good Lord, that is crazy talk.

:facepalm:

Reading comprehension helps. There is a difference between the elite players he listed and the other gaggle of players that he listed.

[Halfcan]

Technically, signing Jones costs you both draft picks and money.

We are foregoing draft picks that we could acquire for Jones. Those picks will not belong to the Chiefs if we sign Jones.

So, by betting on Jones, we’re risking both the money he signs for AND the draft picks we could received in return for him.

Yep, we might miss out on drafting the next Ryan Sims.

I will bet on the sure winner than taking the mystery box.

[wachashi]

If we hadn't already signed Clark, Mathieu, and Hitchens to big contracts the Jones decision would be much easier.

[smithandrew051]

Oh Jesus Christ. This is a fucking moronic way of looking at it.

It’s absolutely true. You have two scenarios.

Sign Jones.

Trade Jones for picks and save money.

It’s not just about what you pay for Jones, it’s also about the compensation that you don’t receive when you keep him.

[Chief Roundup]

If we hadn't already signed Clark, Mathieu, and Hitchens to big contracts the Jones decision would be much easier.

Yeah because Hitchens has been soooooo worth that contract he got. :rolleyes:

[Chief Roundup]

It’s absolutely true. You have two scenarios.

Sign Jones.

Trade Jones for picks and save money.

It’s not just about what you pay for Jones, it’s also about the compensation that you don’t receive when you keep him.

You are not saving the money though. You are going to spend it else where on the team.

[smithandrew051]

Yep, we might miss out on drafting the next Ryan Sims.

I will bet on the sure winner than taking the mystery box.

I’ve said multiple times that I’m fine with either scenario as long as we don’t panic.

I’m fine with the Chiefs signing Jones, as long as it isn’t a drastic overpayment.

I’m fine with the Chiefs trading Jones, as long as they don’t accept shit compensation just because they think they can’t afford him.

[Halfcan]

Except elite QBs impact the game far more and take less physical punishment than a DT, which prolongs their careers.

Mahomes could lose some athleticism and still be an elite QB. We’ve seen guys like Brady and Brees stay effective for 15+ years.

DT’s are essentially in a car wreck every Sunday. Betting on a DT’s health is much riskier.

It is not like the Chiefs will be signing him to deal that will still be paying out when Jones is in the twilight of his career. He will barely be 30 when this one is up. The guy is in his prime years and is on a HOF trajectory so far.

[smithandrew051]

You are not saving the money though. You are going to spend it else where on the team.

And if you sign Jones, you’ll have less to spend on other positions.

Granted, there are ways to work around the cap. It just becomes much more difficult.

[smithandrew051]

It is not like the Chiefs will be signing him to deal that will still be paying out when Jones is in the twilight of his career. He will barely be 30 when this one is up. The guy is in his prime years and is on a HOF trajectory so far.

I agree. My comment was in response to saying that signing Mahomes is a lottery ticket like signing Jones.

Yes, both are risks. But the risk is a lot higher with a DT.

[The Franchise]

It’s absolutely true. You have two scenarios.

Sign Jones.

Trade Jones for picks and save money.

It’s not just about what you pay for Jones, it’s also about the compensation that you don’t receive when you keep him.

Think of what we could do with all the picks that we could get for Mahomes!! And that’s not even factoring in the $40 million.

[BossChief]

A long-term deal with Jones is a bet on his continued elite output and health. A "lottery ticket," as you put it, but one with significant downside risk.

That’s not an intelligent appraisal of the situation.

Chris Jones has established a trend of not only being dominant at one of the most important parts of the sport (interior rush) but he has shown to be coachable, as well.

He talked specifically about that before and after the super bowl. He talked about sack nation and how sometimes you have to change things up for the team. He specifically mentioned not always needing to go for the sack and being able to effect the passing game in other ways while staying responsible. He went out and did exactly that. He stayed in his gap and never allowed the 49ers running game to blow right by him while batting down a bunch of passes and got his hands up on many others that prevented Garapolo from getting the ball to targets over the middle (like Kittle).

The other part of the equation is an elite talent like Jones matched with an elite coach like Daly and an elite edge rusher like Clark. Jones has a real chance at his career ending up with a gold jacket if he keeps improving and taking to the coaching of Daly. I can absolutely see him being the most impactful DL in the league in the next 2 years if he stays on his current trajectory as he’s just now entering his prime.

Let’s say we get a haul for Jones like we got for Jared Allen. Unless we manage those resources PERFECTLY we will not get the same impact out of the draft picks as we could get from Jones if he simply continues the trajectory he has already proven to be able to be dominant at.

Chris is also perfectly built to dominate in this specific system that can best utilize his unique movement skills. He’s perfect to be able to play anywhere on the DL and kill it with Twists and others that require his quickness and size to be dominant.

[Skyy God]

Well obviously, but the risk of injury is far less with a QB than a DT. If your QB is breaking down due to physical punishment, it’s probably a failure of the entire organization. DTs will break down far earlier.

That, and DTs decline rapidly as they age.

Jones will be 26 next season, so.....

https://socalledfantasyexperts.com/aging-curve-nfl-defensive-players-dl-lb-db/

[Fat Elvis]

Every player that signs a large contract is a risk.

FYP

[BossChief]

I’ve said multiple times that I’m fine with either scenario as long as we don’t panic.

I’m fine with the Chiefs signing Jones, as long as it isn’t a drastic overpayment.

I’m fine with the Chiefs trading Jones, as long as they don’t accept shit compensation just because they think they can’t afford him.

I’d prefer to keep him, but I totally agree with this post

[wachashi]

Yeah because Hitchens has been soooooo worth that contract he got. :rolleyes:

What gave you the impression I believe Hitchens is worth his contract?

[Halfcan]

I’ve said multiple times that I’m fine with either scenario as long as we don’t panic.

I’m fine with the Chiefs signing Jones, as long as it isn’t a drastic overpayment.

I’m fine with the Chiefs trading Jones, as long as they don’t accept shit compensation just because they think they can’t afford him.

So you are on the fence and arguing both positions. :thumb:

I am not fine with trading Jones unless we are talking 2 Number 1 picks-which is what he is worth. We should get Mack type return for trading away one of the best defensive players in the game-plus the heart and soul of the Dline.

The guy bleeds Chiefs Red and loves this team. It is not like you can just plug-in someone else and we will be fine. It might take another decade of Junior Savile type players before we get another Jones. That is a big risk, plus gutting our Championship defense in the process.

[Chief Roundup]

And if you sign Jones, you’ll have less to spend on other positions.

Granted, there are ways to work around the cap. It just becomes much more difficult.

Depending on the contract but he is not going to see that $20M number for a year or two depending on the structure. Even if it is next year we will have an additional $8M from Berry being off. We will have Watkins gone and many others. We will not have an elite talent like Jones to sign every year.

[bigdaddychieffan]

The fact that we are gonna have to pay Mahomes means we can’t keep Jones. We went all in to win it this year. Time to retool and build a dynasty. That has to come from making good financial decisions since we are gonna have to pay that money for the qb that we haven’t had to thus far.

[The Franchise]

The fact that we are gonna have to pay Mahomes means we can’t keep Jones. We went all in to win it this year. Time to retool and build a dynasty. That has to come from making good financial decisions since we are gonna have to pay that money for the qb that we haven’t had to thus far.

Categorically fucking wrong.

[Halfcan]

That’s not an intelligent appraisal of the situation.

Chris Jones has established a trend of not only being dominant at one of the most important parts of the sport (interior rush) but he has shown to be coachable, as well.

He talked specifically about that before and after the super bowl. He talked about sack nation and how sometimes you have to change things up for the team. He specifically mentioned not always needing to go for the sack and being able to effect the passing game in other ways while staying responsible. He went out and did exactly that. He stayed in his gap and never allowed the 49ers running game to blow right by him while batting down a bunch of passes and got his hands up on many others that prevented Garapolo from getting the ball to targets over the middle (like Kittle).

The other part of the equation is an elite talent like Jones matched with an elite coach like Daly and an elite edge rusher like Clark. Jones has a real chance at his career ending up with a gold jacket if he keeps improving and taking to the coaching of Daly. I can absolutely see him being the most impactful DL in the league in the next 2 years if he stays on his current trajectory as he’s just now entering his prime.

Let’s say we get a haul for Jones like we got for Jared Allen. Unless we manage those resources PERFECTLY we will not get the same impact out of the draft picks as we could get from Jones if he simply continues the trajectory he has already proven to be able to be dominant at.

Chris is also perfectly built to dominate in this specific system that can best utilize his unique movement skills. He’s perfect to be able to play anywhere on the DL and kill it with Twists and others that require his quickness and size to be dominant.

Very well said! The big knock on Jones around here was his run-gap responsibilities. IMO he worked hard on that and made huge improvements to become more of a team player. He is perfect for this system so that makes him even more valuable.

I want to win Championships. Jones gives us the best odds for that.

[Fat Elvis]

I will leave this right here.....

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/cleveland-browns-greg-robinson-drug-marijuana-arrest-border

Former No. 2 draft pick facing federal drug charge after arrest at border: report

Offensive line, no less.
























But yeah, Chris Jones is too much of a risk.

[smithandrew051]

Think of what we could do with all the picks that we could get for Mahomes!! And that’s not even factoring in the $40 million.

Here’s where Mahomes is different than Jones.

Mahomes is worth more than any realistic compensation we could receive plus whatever the Chiefs pay him. He’s the greatest talent ever at the most impactful position in team sports. He also plays a position where the greats can play into their late 30’s, but he’s only 24.

Jones is different than Mahomes, because you have a FAR greater chance of replacing his impact with the return you receive for him plus the cap space you save.

Is Jones worth more than what the Chiefs could revive for him plus whatever they pay him? Depends on what they receive for him or what they would have to pay him.

Reverse the situation. If we had two firsts, would you trade the earlier pick for Chris Jones and pay him? A lot of people would and I don’t blame them.

[The Franchise]

Here’s where Mahomes is different than Jones.

Mahomes is worth more than any realistic compensation we could receive plus whatever the Chiefs pay him. He’s the greatest talent ever at the most impactful position in team sports. He also plays a position where the greats can play into their late 30’s, but he’s only 24.

Jones is different than Mahomes, because you have a FAR greater chance of replacing his impact with the return you receive for him plus the cap space you save.

Is Jones worth more than what the Chiefs could revive for him plus whatever they pay him? Depends on what they receive for him or what they would have to pay him.

Reverse the situation. If we had two firsts, would you trade the earlier pick for Chris Jones and pay him? A lot of people would and I don’t blame them.

So then you’re getting less value for Jones because now you have to replace him.

[smithandrew051]

So you are on the fence and arguing both positions. :thumb:

I am not fine with trading Jones unless we are talking 2 Number 1 picks-which is what he is worth. We should get Mack type return for trading away one of the best defensive players in the game-plus the heart and soul of the Dline.

The guy bleeds Chiefs Red and loves this team. It is not like you can just plug-in someone else and we will be fine. It might take another decade of Junior Savile type players before we get another Jones. That is a big risk, plus gutting our Championship defense in the process.

Yeah that’s pretty much my stance. As long as we sign him to a decent deal or get great compensation, I’m happy.

[smithandrew051]

So then you’re getting less value for Jones because now you have to replace him.

Really just depends on the return you get for him

[The Franchise]

Yeah that’s pretty much my stance. As long as we sign him to a decent deal or get great compensation, I’m happy.

And that’s where I’m at. I’m just leaning more on the side of signing him. If he wants Donald money or Veach gets a mid first and another pick....then I’d accept it and move on. But if we can sign him for $18 million a season....then I’m doing it.

[DaFace]

So then you’re getting less value for Jones because now you have to replace him.

We already have other DTs on the team, so you're not really replacing Jones - you're upgrading another position instead and saying that the DL is good enough. As a random example (not getting into whether he specifically is worth it), Spotrac thinks that Matt Judon would be worth $16m per year and would be a HUGE upgrade at OLB. So that makes the decision:

Jones

vs.

Judon plus 1st round draft pick (and possibly more)

[The Franchise]

We already have other DTs on the team, so you're not really replacing Jones - you're upgrading another position instead and saying that the DL is good enough. As a random example (not getting into whether he specifically is worth it), Spotrac thinks that Matt Judon would be worth $16m per year and would be a HUGE upgrade at OLB. So that makes the decision:

Jones

vs.

Judon plus 1st round draft pick (and possibly more)

Matt Judon is an OLB in a 3-4. I know what you’re saying though.

[bigdaddychieffan]

Categorically ****ing wrong.

Dont agree at all. If we pay jones this offseason it means we won’t be extending Mahomes right now. Probably wait to do that for next year and he will undoubtedly cost more then. Then it’s now you have to cut other people who may not offer any return due to cap casualties. I would rather not get in a bind paying 1/5 team cap on 2 dl players and another 5th on our qb. We got to field a complete team.

[DaFace]

Matt Judon is an OLB in a 3-4. I know what you’re saying though.

Yeah, I'm just randomly picking dudes from Spotrac's list of estimated contracts (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/market-value/outside-linebacker/). Don't really know much about the guy himself.

[smithandrew051]

And that’s where I’m at. I’m just leaning more on the side of signing him. If he wants Donald money or Veach gets a mid first and another pick....then I’d accept it and move on. But if we can sign him for $18 million a season....then I’m doing it.

We agree

[bigdaddychieffan]

I’m paying the money for Mahomes no matter any compensation. We just need to spend the money wisely elsewhere. Can’t have everything.

[suzzer99]

Now that we’ve already won a super bowl I personally feel less desperate to have to run out there in 2020 and win it again. Of course it would be nice to win again in 2020 and I hope it happens, but I’m more concerned now with maintaining the long term health of the roster. Instead of trying to load up again in 2020 at the expense of potential future talent and depth, I’d rather make the moves needed to stockpile talent/depth long term. So as much as I’d love to have Chris Jones, unless he takes $15 million a year I don’t see how you can sink $40 million+ a year into two players on the DL. Assuming we can capitalize on the draft capital and not take another Breeland Speaks, adding a 1st and 3rd and maybe even trading out of our current 1st round pick for additional picks gives us a lot of ammunition to fill out the roster. We already haven’t had a 1st round pick since 2017 and we have a lot of free agents, leaving us in a position where the depth and/or talent on the roster at certain positions could become perilously thin. Going from a single pick in rounds 1, 2, & 3 to a 1st, two 2nd, two 3rd, two 4th, etc. plus the cap savings from not adding a $20 million a year contract that can be spread among several positions/players IMO helps more in the long run than a single player not named Mahomes.

I hear what you're saying. But the counterpoint is maybe we should sell out to try to win one or two more now while we still have Kelce, Hill, Clark, Jones(?), Watkins(??), and HB in their primes - then go through a couple years' rebuild.

[Hoover]

I’m paying the money for Mahomes no matter any compensation. We just need to spend the money wisely elsewhere. Can’t have everything.
And everyone here and around the globe agree...

[Halfcan]

Yeah, I'm just randomly picking dudes from Spotrac's list of estimated contracts (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/market-value/outside-linebacker/). Don't really know much about the guy himself.

Will, any of these guys love KC as much as Jones, smile like Jones, flop his dong like Jones, talk like Jones, walk like Jones, dominate like Jones, talk shit to QB's like Jones or make a great soda drink like Jones?