Anybody looking for a good laugh? (Mahomes vs. Jackson)

[staylor26]

There are really 3 idiots (out of 7) that picked Lamar.

LMAO

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2891891-br-nfl-staff-roundtable-who-would-you-rather-have-mahomes-or-lamar

[displacedinMN]

Jackson has to do more. He does not have the options.

I would rather have Mahomes. Not that I am biased.


Off topic-Why does Jackson always look mad, pissed and unhappy?

[RealSNR]

I'm not laughing. I am pissed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[DJ's left nut]

I'm so tired of hearing 'how much Jackson has improved as a passer' especially when it's used to contrast him with Mahomes.

I've said this a few times but if anyone has the time to watch 4 condensed games from '18 and then 4 from '19 - and really, a random sample will do this just fine - the difference between '18 Mahomes and '19 Mahomes is startling.

He is so much more in control in '19. I mean that kid is in complete command. He has fewer of those spectacular snaps where he takes the snap, immediately darts to his left, turns right, wastes a few steps but still makes something happen. Those are the 'Favre' plays where he makes an incredible play happen that...maybe wasn't necessary to begin with.

Because in '19 he's moved guys pre-snap, picked his read, taken the snap and before he's completed his drop he's decided how he's going to cut your throat. The game just looks !@#$ing easy for him.

Meanwhile Lamar Jackson still can't throw the ball outside the hashes and get jerked off anytime he completes a pass 20 yards up the seam for some reason. Yes, he found a weapon he trusted in his TE so he could float some balls out there to him but are we really going to ignore the fact that he threw for 3100 yards? His TE had 852 yards and his #1 wideout had a whopping 584 on 71 targets. Mecole Hardman had 538 yards on 41. And Hardman was such an afterthought in this offense that I suspect it took until week 6 for Mahomes to remember his name. Meanwhile Brown was the 'emerging weapon' that would take Jackson to the next level while being slightly better than the #6 option in Mahomes offense.

Jackson improved. He improved a fair amount. But Patrick Mahomes started from a far higher level and improved MORE, stats be damned.

[Deberg_1990]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the next decade.

[Monticore]

I'm so tired of hearing 'how much Jackson has improved as a passer' especially when it's used to contrast him with Mahomes.

I've said this a few times but if anyone has the time to watch 4 condensed games from '18 and then 4 from '19 - and really, a random sample will do this just fine - the difference between '18 Mahomes and '19 Mahomes is startling.

He is so much more in control in '19. I mean that kid is in complete command. He has fewer of those spectacular snaps where he takes the snap, immediately darts to his left, turns right, wastes a few steps but still makes something happen. Those are the 'Favre' plays where he makes an incredible play happen that...maybe wasn't necessary to begin with.

Because in '19 he's moved guys pre-snap, picked his read, taken the snap and before he's completed his drop he's decided how he's going to cut your throat. The game just looks !@#$ing easy for him.

Meanwhile Lamar Jackson still can't throw the ball outside the hashes and get jerked off anytime he completes a pass 20 yards up the seam for some reason. Yes, he found a weapon he trusted in his TE so he could float some balls out there to him but are we really going to ignore the fact that he threw for 3100 yards? His TE had 852 yards and his #1 wideout had a whopping 584 on 71 targets. Mecole Hardman had 538 yards on 41. And Hardman was such an afterthought in this offense that I suspect it took until week 6 for Mahomes to remember his name. Meanwhile Brown was the 'emerging weapon' that would take Jackson to the next level while being slightly better than the #6 option in Mahomes offense.

Jackson improved. He improved a fair amount. But Patrick Mahomes started from a far higher level and improved MORE, stats be damned.

This absolutely this, he was way better in 19 as a QB , going forward we will be seeing less highlight reel plays from him because he will be putting himself in positions where they won't be needed . The game really slowed down for him last year.

[RealSNR]

On a more serious note, Cowherd was talking about how great Mahomes is after we beat the Texans, and he said something like, "Every GM if you asked them privately if they would trade their current QB for Patrick Mahomes, every single one would say yes. Many would do the same for Lamar Jackson, but, you'd have a handful that say, 'Can we also get Greg Roman? And those TEs?'"

I think that encapsulates it.

[ChiTown]

https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/web1_AP20036778377046.jpg

[Mecca]

I think it's more amusing that people think Lamar Jackson is going to be that player for a decade, history says a few things will happen..

At best he will always have accuracy issues, he will likely get hurt if he keeps running that way, all QB's that run to that level have. Ask Cam Newton and Mike Vick what that style did for them.

Worst case scenario here is what if he's Kaepernick? That dude ran all over everyone and had better passing talent than Jackson and his dominance lasted what 2 years?

[DrRyan]

Looking forward to week 3 when Lamar continues the 0-fer vs Pat.

[DJ's left nut]

I think it's more amusing that people think Lamar Jackson is going to be that player for a decade, history says a few things will happen..

At best he will always have accuracy issues, he will likely get hurt if he keeps running that way, all QB's that run to that level have. Ask Cam Newton and Mike Vick what that style did for them.

Worst case scenario here is what if he's Kaepernick? That dude ran all over everyone and had better passing talent than Jackson and his dominance lasted what 2 years?

And this idea that he's gonna learn to read defenses better and that will elevate his passing game presumes that Mahomes will just plateau in that regard and Jackson will catch him. To be better than Mahomes, Jackson will need to be 90% the passer that Mahomes will be and that's simply not going to happen.

Even if Jackson becomes Brady in his ability to read defenses, he'll always have a weak arm that requires a stable platform to throw from. Even presuming he somehow becomes Mahomes equal pre-snap (he won't), he'll never be a comparable passer because he doesn't have the easy velocity and variable throwing mechanics that Mahomes has. And no, you don't learn vision - he'll never have Mahomes vision either.

And 'reading defenses' is a constant evolution that requires real-time, immediate adjustments because defenses will adapt game to game. If Jackson had that ability, he'd have demonstrated it by now. He hasn't. So sure, in time he may be able to adjust to what defenses are doing to him now, but what happens when those defenses adjust back? If it took him a year to adapt the first time around, why should we expect more rapid adjustments in the future? That's just an innate ability you either have or you don't. Few do - Mahomes is one of them and Jackson ain't.

It's just such a silly argument.

[MIAdragon]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the next decade.

He’s never going to last that long.

[Mecca]

And this idea that he's gonna learn to read defenses better and that will elevate his passing game presumes that Mahomes will just plateau in that regard and Jackson will catch him. To be better than Mahomes, Jackson will need to be 90% the passer that Mahomes will be and that's simply not going to happen.

Even if Jackson becomes Brady in his ability to read defenses, he'll always have a weak arm that requires a stable platform to throw from. Even presuming he somehow becomes Mahomes equal pre-snap (he won't), he'll never be a comparable passer because he doesn't have the easy velocity and variable throwing mechanics that Mahomes has. And no, you don't learn vision - he'll never have Mahomes vision either.

And 'reading defenses' is a constant evolution that requires real-time, immediate adjustments because defenses will adapt game to game. If Jackson had that ability, he'd have demonstrated it by now. He hasn't. So sure, in time he may be able to adjust to what defenses are doing to him now, but what happens when those defenses adjust back? If it took him a year to adapt the first time around, why should we expect more rapid adjustments in the future? That's just an innate ability you either have or you don't. Few do - Mahomes is one of them and Jackson ain't.

It's just such a silly argument.

That pro bowl skills comp really showed how bad he is at throwing......he was worse than Jarvis Landry at hitting targets...

Also I don't find it at all surprising that his OC, Greg Roman, is the same guy that made Kaepernick look like a star for a couple years.

[O.city]

In the NFL, you want to avoid getting hit. The more you get hit, the less likely you are to stay healthy. I want a QB that can, you know, be a QB, not a RB.

I don't really see why this is a hard decision

[DJ's left nut]

That pro bowl skills comp really showed how bad he is at throwing......he was worse than Jarvis Landry at hitting targets...

Also I don't find it at all surprising that his OC, Greg Roman, is the same guy that made Kaepernick look like a star for a couple years.

It's similar to baseball in that regard.

Pretty much every major league ballplayer, even the pitchers, probably played shortstop or centerfield in High School. At the highest level, they'd look silly trying to play those positions, but they DO have experience with them and they'd make the rank and file human being look like assholes.

So think about how many of these DBs and WRs played quarterback growing up. I'd imagine a handful of LBs, DEs and/or TEs did as well. Because if you're a D1 caliber player with long-term NFL skills you will stand out like a sore thumb at most high schools and any HC is going to want the ball in your hands as often as he can get it there. So you're gonna play some QB and you're gonna be able to throw a spiral.

I'd say there are literally 100+ guys in the NFL that would've smoked Lamar in that skills competition because Jackson just isn't a good passer. You can hide that for awhile, but there's just no avoiding it outright.

[sedated]

And this idea that he's gonna learn to read defenses better and that will elevate his passing game presumes that Mahomes will just plateau in that regard and Jackson will catch him.

It's kinda like this quote from the article:

"As good as Mahomes is—and he's great—it's hard to see him improving upon the type of numbers we've already seen."

So Mahomes gets downvoted because it will be hard to improve on 50 F-ING TDs AND 5,000 YARDS(!)

[arrwheader]

We've seen the song and dance before. Poor Raven's fans think they have something special but they will always get this close and lose to the better QB. They have done a great job of getting the most out of Jackson for what he is in Balt but Mahomes will always have the edge and I don't think it's even close.

Much like the later Smith year's here just close enough to think you are turning that corner and got a shot but will always come up short on the big games. They lost at home to the Titan's when they had home field advantage and Jackson was awful. Threw how many picks? Ring any bells? Titan's had a good run at the end and we're a formidable opponent but Jackson and the Raven's should have handled business there.

Mahomes got down every playoff game including the SB and handled the business. Lamar gets down at home to the Titan's a run first team and can't do shit.

This conversation shouldn't even be happening.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[displacedinMN]

Still envisioning Jackson getting hit like Derrick Thomas did to Steve McNair.

Not wishing-just seeing it.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

Thiggy was fun, for a while

[Chiefspants]

Jackson, as a passer, reminds me of 2017 Alex Smith.

That's a good QB, but if he's ever going to have to beat Patrick Mahomes with his arm - well.. we know how it will go.

[Coochie liquor]

He’s never going to last that long.

Deburg bruh!!

[DrRyan]

That pro bowl skills comp really showed how bad he is at throwing......he was worse than Jarvis Landry at hitting targets...

Also I don't find it at all surprising that his OC, Greg Roman, is the same guy that made Kaepernick look like a star for a couple years.

That was so great. My 10 year old son's best friend at school is a bandwagon Lamar and Ravens fan. My son pulls that card to roast him frequently when he tries to start talking about Lamar passing the ball. LMAO

[O.city]

It's kinda like this quote from the article:

"As good as Mahomes is—and he's great—it's hard to see him improving upon the type of numbers we've already seen."

So Mahomes gets downvoted because it will be hard to improve on 50 F-ING TDs AND 5,000 YARDS(!)

Pretty much.

His numbers were down this last year and he was better. It's just a terrible argument.

[TimBone]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the next decade.Jackson won't be around in a decade.

[The Franchise]

Jackson will never win a trophy. Who is going to sit here and tell me that Jackson could have beaten that 49ers defense?

[Chiefspants]

Jackson will never win a trophy. Who is going to sit here and tell me that Jackson could have beaten that 49ers defense?

Jackson did beat that defense this year (it was one of the best games of the year).

He got help from Kyle "Monster Energy" Shanahan calling a pass play on 4th in 1 deep in Ravens territory (during a rainstorm, no less) but we got the same help from Kyle too in the 4th quarter.

Chiefs fans are right to question Jackson's longevity in the league, but Jackson did have an outstanding year this year. I've watched a lot of his games out of morbid curiosity. It honestly is like watching someone with Alex Smith's passing ability who has generational running talent. People are right to question his longevity, but he did well to avoid major hits this year. Alex Smith and DeShaun Watson, for example, took far more hits over a season than Lamar.

[The Franchise]

Jackson did beat that defense this year (it was one of the best games of the year).

He got help from Kyle "Monster Energy" Shanahan calling a pass on 4th in 1 deep in Ravens territory during a rainstorm, but we got the same help from Kyle too.

Chiefs fans are right to question Jackson's longevity in the league, but Jackson did have a stellar year this year.

Regular season and post season are completely different monsters. Jackson has now looked like shit two postseasons in a row.

[staylor26]

Jackson did beat that defense this year (it was one of the best games of the year).

He got help from Kyle "Monster Energy" Shanahan calling a pass on 4th in 1 deep in Ravens territory during a rainstorm, but we got the same help from Kyle too.

Chiefs fans are right to question Jackson's longevity in the league, but Jackson did have a stellar year this year.

Eh that defense wasn’t full strength and he still only put up 20 pts. That wasn’t getting it done against the 49ers come playoff time.

[Chiefspants]

Eh that defense wasn’t full strength and he still only put up 20 pts. That wasn’t getting it done against the 49ers come playoff time.

Different strokes.

The 49ers achilles heel throughout the season was their running defense. It's why Andy Reid called 30 run plays despite having one of the greatest passing offenses of all time. The Ravens would have shredded that pass-rush happy defensive line with Ingram and Jackson. It's definitely possible the 49ers would have won, but the Ravens run heavy offense was actually well built to gash the 9ers D.

[The Franchise]

Still, everyone who voted for Mahomes essentially left room for that to change. It was apparent this was a debate between one player with unmatched early-career accomplishments and one with unprecedented early-career potential.

And what the fuck is this garbage quote?

Somehow Jackson has a higher ceiling than Mahomes?

[Tribal Warfare]

Jackson won't be around in a decade.

By 28-30 years old with Jackson's playing style Lamar will be broken down like Cam.

[Kman34]

If Jackson is so good we would have played them in the playoffs...They got punked by the brokedick Texans instead.. fail..

[Mecca]

Lamar Jackson is a great QB...for Madden.

I also think we are starting to swing the other way in terms of how players are thought. What DJ said is absolutely right most guys in the NFL did play QB in high school because D1 talent destroys regular high school kids.

The problem now is, for as much as I think guys should be able to compete at the positions they want to play. And for as much crap as Bill Polian takes for saying Jackson should be a WR. How many guys would have had better careers if they had just acknowledged they probably weren't NFL Qbs, Terrelle Pryor is a good example.

[RealSNR]

Jackson did beat that defense this year (it was one of the best games of the year).

He got help from Kyle "Monster Energy" Shanahan calling a pass on 4th in 1 deep in Ravens territory during a rainstorm, but we got the same help from Kyle too.

Chiefs fans are right to question Jackson's longevity in the league, but Jackson did have a stellar year this year.

I get that the game is evolving beyond the tall statue pocket passer QB, but until Jackson starts to consistently show that his arm can set up his legs and not the other way around, I'm not going to care all that much about his statistics, even if the team is winning lots of games like they did last year.

[notorious]

3 colossal morons.

[notorious]

Jackson would have been the perfect 90s Chiefs QB: Play well in the season only to completely shit the bed in the playoffs.

I think he is vastly over rated, and time will prove me right.

[mdchiefsfan]

Gotta keep those ratings up. If it was all Mahomes, all day, no one would bother watching.

They have to drum up some interesting matchups, but we all know the truth.

[smithandrew051]

I’ve seen Jackson look completely helpless as a passer in big games. I’ve never seen Mahomes look helpless as a passer. Even in Mahomes’s worst games, he typically gets it together at some point.

He’s never looked like Jackson did in BOTH of his playoff games for an entire game.

[The Franchise]

I’ve seen Jackson look completely helpless as a passer in big games. I’ve never seen Mahomes look helpless as a passer. Even in Mahomes’s worst games, he typically gets it together at some point.

He’s never looked like Jackson did in BOTH of his playoff games for an entire game.

One of Pat’s worst games was the Super Bowl. And even after 3 quarters....we were still in it and he did enough to win the damn thing. I don’t see Jackson pulling that off. The Titans showed how to beat the Ravens offense. Flood the middle of the fields and spy Jackson. He can’t make those throws outside the hashmarks.

[DJ's left nut]

Gotta keep those ratings up. If it was all Mahomes, all day, no one would bother watching.

They have to drum up some interesting matchups, but we all know the truth.

BoB just ratfucked the NFL, didn't he?

Their Mahomes v. Watson matchups aren't quite as appealing when Watson is out there throwing to some dudes that couldn't cut it in Miami while handing off to the corpse of David Johnson.

[Mecca]

One of Pat’s worst games was the Super Bowl. And even after 3 quarters....we were still in it and he did enough to win the damn thing. I don’t see Jackson pulling that off. The Titans showed how to beat the Ravens offense. Flood the middle of the fields and spy Jackson. He can’t make those throws outside the hashmarks.

That and get ahead, as soon as they are trailing they are a completely different team.

[smithandrew051]

One of Pat’s worst games was the Super Bowl. And even after 3 quarters....we were still in it and he did enough to win the damn thing. I don’t see Jackson pulling that off. The Titans showed how to beat the Ravens offense. Flood the middle of the fields and spy Jackson. He can’t make those throws outside the hashmarks.

Exactly.

Funny. We heard all offseason last year about how “having film on Mahomes” would bring him back to reality.

Why isn’t that the story for Jackson? He’s the one who struggles as a passer when forced to make NFL throws to his wide receivers.

[RealSNR]

Gotta keep those ratings up. If it was all Mahomes, all day, no one would bother watching.

They have to drum up some interesting matchups, but we all know the truth.

I hate how Lamar Jackson got appointed that 2nd best guy. Russell Wilson is still in his prime (though he's now hit 31 and will probably see a bit of a decline in coming years) and he's 10x the QB that Lamar is. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers will ever bounce back from the way Green Bay has completely cut his nuts off in their personnel building strategy, particularly with his age, but he's also still out there.

I'm not saying to never praise Lamar or celebrate him as a player. But if I'm a GM, and I can have any QB in the league, I'd start to consider Lamar after Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, and even then, I'd have to really think about if I want Lamar over Dak, Watson, and even someone like Stafford.

[The Franchise]

I’m sure the next argument will be....


But Pat has more weapons!1!1!1!

[Mecca]

Lamar is getting run for a couple of reasons.

He's an underdog, people eat that shit up, the guy who people said couldn't be a QB wins MVP.

He's been on the radar for awhile, Heisman trophy etc.

But the biggest reasons are pretty simple, he's in an east coast market that is far bigger than most of the others big time QB's are playing in.

The NFL views him as marketable to young fans, and madden players love him because well he's a video game QB.

[The Franchise]

I hate how Lamar Jackson got appointed that 2nd best guy. Russell Wilson is still in his prime (though he's now hit 31 and will probably see a bit of a decline in coming years) and he's 10x the QB that Lamar is. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers will ever bounce back from the way Green Bay has completely cut his nuts off in their personnel building strategy, particularly with his age, but he's also still out there.

I'm not saying to never praise Lamar or celebrate him as a player. But if I'm a GM, and I can have any QB in the league, I'd start to consider Lamar after Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, and even then, I'd have to really think about if I want Lamar over Dak, Watson, and even someone like Stafford.

I would probably take Jackson after Mahomes, Wilson and Watson. But I would do it knowing full well what his limitations are and how much I would have to neuter my offense. I would also constantly be looking for another QB to take over after his deal is up.

[Deberg_1990]

Jackson won't be around in a decade.

RGIII outlasted Luck. So you never know.

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

Lamar is really talented, I think he deserves some credit.

But Mahomes is just on another plane of existence. If you look at what he's accomplished in the 3 years he's been here, 2 years starting, it's just absurd. The media is desperately looking for a rival to Mahomes to keep things interesting, cause otherwise they'd be forced to talk about Mahomes even more than they have already.

Lamar is good, he might even get a ring one day. But barring some horrible front office management by the Chiefs or injury, Mahomes is just gonna continue to make the rest of the league look like high schoolers who dont know what they're doing.

[smithandrew051]

RGIII outlasted Luck. So you never know.

You can’t possibly be using that as a real comparison.

[Chiefspants]

My complementary takes on Lamar often get misinterpreted around these parts as me saying that Lamar is as good as Mahomes. I don't think Lamar comes close to Mahomes. I would admittedly love for Lamar to be a long-term rival to Mahomes, as I think it would be incredible for the NFL (and Mahomes) and has the potential to be a match-up in contrasting styles and talent that draws in fans worldwide (like Federer-Nadal). With that said, I think a long-term rivalry would end up with Mahomes having a 14-5 like advantage (if not even better). Lamar needs a lot to work for him to hang with KC's offense. Namely, he needs Mahomes to make uncharacteristic mistakes, he needs to be playing with a lead against Mahomes, and he's better off if the game is a low scoring affair - all of these factors are unlikely and gives Mahomes an advantage in every match-up.

Where I push back on the critiques of Lamar come when his criticisms feel like "rival fan" criticisms and not criticisms that come from Lamar's style. The talking point that Lamar takes so many hits that he will only hold up for another season or two (like Cam) doesn't really hold up when watching his games. I think it's actually more likely that happens to DeShaun Watson and Josh Allen (see Luck, Andrew). Watson and Allen both take way more unnecessary "hero ball" like hits than Lamar. Lamar is smart, he gets down when he needs to and gets out of bounds rather than trying to get an extra 1-2 yards on a second down. I understand only takes one wrong hit to level Jackson - which is true, but the talking point that Lamar takes too many hits doesn't really hold up when watching the tape.

Where I also push back is when folks say that Lamar wouldn't have a prayer against a pass defense like the 49ers (or the Patriots, for that matter). The 49ers defense is built to neutralize an elite passing offense like Kansas City's. The entire structure of their defense was built to counter the heavy passing approach that most offenses are trending towards in the NFL's. In contrast, The Ravens are built to take advantage of defenses (like the 9ers and Patriots) who are ready for that pass-happy style. The Ravens load up their offense with 3 TE sets that are built to gash speedy defenses who are prepared for high passing offenses. The 49ers had the 17th ranked run D this year while allowing only 8 20+ passing plays in all of 2019 (the lowest in a decade). The 49ers had such a gap here that Andy Reid's and Patrick Mahomes' generational offense ended up running it 30 times against them in the Super Bowl. The Ravens, by their nature, are built to gash defenses who would otherwise be stout against pass-happy teams. The Titans, weirdly, were a good matchup against the Ravens O - as the Titans D was stout against the run and porous against the pass. Lamar had, what, 500 total yards against the Titans O? Which looked great on paper, but when he had to throw to endzone, that style fell apart.

Lamar's greatest weakness this last season (similar to Alex Smith's) is not a team like the 49ers or Patriots, but it was going up against an elite passing offense like the Chiefs that forced him to win with his arm. Even Ravens fans know this, on reddit they were universally admitting that the Chiefs likely beat them by 10+ in the playoffs. If that continues to be the case, Lamar's krpytonite is going to always arise when he has to throw the ball against the Chiefs or an another offense. I do think Lamar gets way more unfair criticism around these parts than he deserves. Can you imagine Lamar on the 49ers offense? Honestly, an "Alex Smith" who can run for 1,000 yards has the potential to be elite over the next few seasons - but I will always favor the Chiefs if he does run into us in the playoffs.

[The Franchise]

RGIII outlasted Luck. So you never know.

Are you really that stupid?

[smithandrew051]

Lamar is getting run for a couple of reasons.

He's an underdog, people eat that shit up, the guy who people said couldn't be a QB wins MVP.

He's been on the radar for awhile, Heisman trophy etc.

But the biggest reasons are pretty simple, he's in an east coast market that is far bigger than most of the others big time QB's are playing in.

The NFL views him as marketable to young fans, and madden players love him because well he's a video game QB.

I don’t think our issue is with Jackson getting publicity and recognition.

The issue is throwing him in the same conversation with Mahomes when there is a large gap between the two.

Jackson has been exposed as a QB on multiple occasions. It’s never happened to Mahomes for an entire game.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

We've seen the song and dance before. Poor Raven's fans think they have something special but they will always get this close and lose to the better QB. They have done a great job of getting the most out of Jackson for what he is in Balt but Mahomes will always have the edge and I don't think it's even close.

This conversation shouldn't even be happening.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

But that’s the thing. Looking at Baltimore they think they CAN win with a lesser QB. I think most, not all, would acknowledge that Mahomes is better than Lamar. That being said, they have won 2 Super Bowls in the last 20 years with garbage QB’s. One got hot (Flacco) at the right time, the other (Dilfer) simply didn’t lose the game and had an All-Time defense to prop him up.

So while many may recognize Mahomes as better than Lamar, they still think they can beat Mahomes and the Chiefs based on past history. Which I think even the Ravens front office has somewhat acknowledged by building up their defense as much as possible the last year or so.

Regardless of what they do to their D, I still think Mahomes will get over on them way more times than not, but I imagine they’ll pull out the occasional win against us. Just probably not in the playoffs, where Mahomes has shined and Lamar has, eh, struggled . . . . . .

[staylor26]

Different strokes.

The 49ers achilles heel throughout the season was their running defense. It's why Andy Reid called 30 run plays despite having one of the greatest passing offenses of all time. The Ravens would have shredded that pass-rush happy defensive line with Ingram and Jackson. It's definitely possible the 49ers would have won, but the Ravens run heavy offense was actually well built to gash the 9ers D.

I just don’t know how you could watch that Titans vs Ravens game and come to the conclusion that the Ravens and Lamar could’ve gotten it done against that 49ers D at full strength.

[Shoes]

Some of the quotes in that article make me want to fucking puke.
As good as Mahomes is—and he's great—it's hard to see him improving upon the type of numbers we've already seen. Whereas Jackson hasn't come close to realizing his full potential as a passer. The reigning NFL MVP will continue to refine his footwork and mechanics while becoming more adept at reading defenses.

Plus, the 2018 MVP can't affect the game in the same way Jackson can as a runner. Even if the Ravens offense grows stagnant, Jackson's ability to create with his feet has never been seen at quarterback.

Imagine having that thought in your mind and believing you have a brain. Patrick Mahomes threw for 5000 yards and 50 TD's in his first season as a starter- because Mahomes excelled so early on in his career it is hard to imagine him improving on his god-like numbers. That's why this "expert" is going to pick Lamar Jackson, because Lamar Jackson can improve on his Alex Smith-like 3600 passing yards.

Cherry on top is stating that Mahomes can't affect the game the same way Jackson can. It's truly unfathomable that this pundit gets paid to offer his opinion about sports.

It honestly makes me furious.

Brent Sobleski by the way if anyone wants to know who the genius is.

[Chiefspants]

I just don’t know how you could watch that Titans vs Ravens game and come to the conclusion that the Ravens and Lamar could’ve gotten it done against that 49ers D at full strength.

The Titans had a far superior running defense to the (even full strength) 49ers.

[duncan_idaho]

They've got to make an article, but I can't imagine anyone really taking Jackson over Mahomes if it's behind the scenes, and they actually are picking one.

Jackson, for all his explosiveness in the open field, still requires everything to be "on schedule" for his offense to hum. He's not going to consistently make plays in the passing game when everyone knows he's passing.

Jackson DOES throw a decent 9 route, and he's good between the hashes with his feet set from the pocket. But he's limited. He can't throw outside the hashes with accuracy and pace, because he just doesn't have the arm strength (even when on a perfect platform). He has to hump up and overthrow it to get it there, and that messes with accuracy.

Unless/until he can consistently hit the short and intermediate routes, there is a path there to limit him if you can control their early run game and stay disciplined.

Mahomes, what do you do? You have to hope you can pressure quickly with 3-4 guys while maintaining discipline and closing rush lanes and also covering up the receivers enough to force him to hold the ball.

You basically need the 49ers front 4 with a back 7 that can man up against the Chiefs' stable of receivers, to really stop him consistently. Or injuries to Mahomes that limit his mobility. Or injuries to 2-3 of his best weapons. Or an offense that can go blow-to-blow.

And he's going to get better. He progressed a bunch pre-snap this year. He's going to keep working and get better at that. Imagine 2018 health with 2019approach, and it actually is possible to see him be better than he was in 2018.

[RunKC]

Big time reality check coming for Lamar. Steelers aren’t lead by a shit QB anymore, CLEVELAND has a competent coach now and Burrow is in Cincy.

No easy meal ticket this year, bitch

[DJ's left nut]

I hate how Lamar Jackson got appointed that 2nd best guy. Russell Wilson is still in his prime (though he's now hit 31 and will probably see a bit of a decline in coming years) and he's 10x the QB that Lamar is. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers will ever bounce back from the way Green Bay has completely cut his nuts off in their personnel building strategy, particularly with his age, but he's also still out there.

I'm not saying to never praise Lamar or celebrate him as a player. But if I'm a GM, and I can have any QB in the league, I'd start to consider Lamar after Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, and even then, I'd have to really think about if I want Lamar over Dak, Watson, and even someone like Stafford.

I know there's a surplus of mid-tier QBs in the league right now, but is it possible that QB play right now actually kinda sucks?

I mean yeah, Mahomes and Wilson are 1 and 2 and I don't see a good argument there. But hell...is there anyone clearly better than Watson out there right now? And is Watson actually very good? Seems like he's a pretty decent quarterback but if you take away the hype and the volume, he's 2017 Alex Smith, right? I mean that's a good quarterback, but it's not '3rd best quarterback in the league' good.

Go back 10 years and you're looking at Manning, Brady, Brees, Ben, Rodgers and Romo all playing at high levels. You had other Manning playing in his prime (and like it or not, he's going to the HoF). Shit, you had Favre and Warner out there slinging it still.

Maybe I'm not giving enough credit to the 2nd tier guys like Matt Ryan but it seems like the top end of the QB pool is a lot shallower than it used to be. Those legends of not too terribly long ago are winding down their careers and the new blood hasn't been at quite that level. Maybe a couple years from now if Murray and Lawrence are studs to go with continued improvement from Watson and Mahomes we can have that 6-8 deep pool of really damn good QBs, but it sure doesn't seem we have that now unless we squint and give guys like Rodgers and Brady credit for past exploits.

[RunKC]

Jackson will never win a trophy. Who is going to sit here and tell me that Jackson could have beaten that 49ers defense?

Best thing about Lamar is he is employed by a top 5 organization. He will always have talent as long as he’s there

[duncan_idaho]

The Titans had a far superior running defense to the (even full strength) 49ers.

Yeah, sure did. 49ers light/fast front 7 might have had trouble with Ravens, especially if Bitchmade was getting snaps.

[The Franchise]

Best thing about Lamar is he is employed by a top 5 organization. He will always have talent as long as he’s there

Defensive talent? Sure.

Look at those WRs. Hollywood Brown is a deep threat. Boykin is meh. Snead is a JAG. He has good RBs, good TEs and an offensive line built to run block.

[staylor26]

The Titans had a far superior running defense to the (even full strength) 49ers.

The Titans were 13th in run defense.

The 49ers were 12th

The difference in their pass defense was WAY bigger. He wasn’t beating that 49ers team without having to throw the ball either. To think otherwise is silly.

[Chiefspants]

Yeah, sure did. 49ers light/fast front 7 might have had trouble with Ravens, especially if Bitchmade was getting snaps.

Jackson's performance against the Patriots D re-inforces this point, I think. We remember the 49ers and Patriots defenses because they gave Mahomes trouble, but that doesn't necessarily translate to shutting Lamar down. I'm convinced the best defense against the 2019 Ravens wasn't a defense at all, but an offense that got up by 2+ scores against Lamar and forced him to chuck the ball. As long as the Chiefs have Mahomes, they'll always have that on the Ravens.

[Chiefspants]

The Titans were 13th in run defense.

The 49ers were 12th

The difference in their pass defense was WAY bigger. He wasn’t beating that 49ers team without having to throw the ball either. To think otherwise is silly.

I think you gotta look at efficiency here.


The Titans D was 9th in rushing efficiency
The Niners D was 14th in rushing efficiency.

The Titans D was 12th in total YPG
The Niners D was 17th in total YPG

But where you really see the divide comes in yards per carry

The Titans D was 7th in YPC.
The Niners D was 23rd in YPC.

I think the Niners D benefitted greatly because their offense forced teams into holes and forced offenses to throw the ball way more than they wanted to against the 49ers pass rush (allowing the 49ers to put in our buddy Dee Ford). When teams could establish the run against the Niners, they were able to gash them Damien Williams style. Most teams (like the Packers and Vikings) were so quickly out of the games against the Niners that they didn't have that choice.

Mobile QB's were especially hard for the Niners to counter this year (see Kyler Murray, Lamar, Wilson, and Mahomes performances against them this year).

[staylor26]

I don’t know where you’re getting those stats from but the Titans were 14th in YPC (4.2) and the 49ers were 21st (4.4).

Also, the Titans gave up 5.1 YPC their last 3 games.

This is including the playoffs.

In no way was the Titans run defense as good as you’re making it to be.

And you continue to ignore the fact that we’re talking about playoff football. Lamar would’ve had to throw the ball as well to beat the 49ers. They weren’t beating that team running it the entire game.

[Chiefspants]

I don’t know where you’re getting those stats from but the Titans were 14th in YPC (4.2) and the 49ers were 21st (4.4).

Also, the Titans gave up 5.1 YPC their last 3 games.

This is including the playoffs.

In no way was the Titans run defense as good as you’re making it to to be.

I was using PFR's "yards per attempt" metric. I should have clarified that. I compiled the stats using Pro Football Reference & Football Outsiders.

[Mecca]

Defensive talent? Sure.

Look at those WRs. Hollywood Brown is a deep threat. Boykin is meh. Snead is a JAG. He has good RBs, good TEs and an offensive line built to run block.

Why would they spend a ton of money or high picks on WR's? Jackson has shown he isn't going to use them much, just get speed guys to run guys out of the play so he can dunk it to the Te over the middle, it's literally all they do.

[smithandrew051]

Honestly who cares what Jackson would’ve or could’ve done in the Super Bowl? He hasn’t even won 1 playoff game.

[smithandrew051]

Why would they spend a ton of money or high picks on WR's? Jackson has shown he isn't going to use them much, just get speed guys to run guys out of the play so he can dunk it to the Te over the middle, it's literally all they do.

I’ll agree with this. They’re smarter using picks and money on players they’ll actually use.

[Titty Meat]

HAHA

[ChiefBlueCFC]

I know there aren't sports on and these people have to create content, but the arguments for Jackson over Mahomes kinda makes me roll my eyes. I know I am biased but Mahomes is far and away a better passer of the football. While Mahomes can't run as fast and isn't as nimble as Jackson, he is no friggin slouch.

Gimme Mahomes 100 out of 100.

Combine Jackson's ability to throw well with his stratospheric running skills and we see why he's almost unstoppable, and why I'm picking him.

Mike Freeman, dude... combine Mahome's ability to run the ball well with his otherworldly stratospheric passing ability; he is unstoppable. Just ask Houston, Tennessee and San Francisco, guy.

[Mecca]

I know there aren't sports on and these people have to create content, but the arguments for Jackson over Mahomes kinda makes me roll my eyes. I know I am biased but Mahomes is far and away a better passer of the football. While Mahomes can't run as fast and isn't as nimble as Jackson, he is no friggin slouch.

Gimme Mahomes 100 out of 100.



Mike Freeman, dude... combine Mahome's ability to run the ball well with his otherworldly stratospheric passing ability; he is unstoppable. Just ask Houston, Tennessee and San Francisco, guy.

If I told you why Mike Freeman is picking Jackson I'd probably light the sub on fire so...

[DJ's left nut]

I don’t know where you’re getting those stats from but the Titans were 14th in YPC (4.2) and the 49ers were 21st (4.4).

Also, the Titans gave up 5.1 YPC their last 3 games.

This is including the playoffs.

In no way was the Titans run defense as good as you’re making it to be.

And you continue to ignore the fact that we’re talking about playoff football. Lamar would’ve had to throw the ball as well to beat the 49ers. They weren’t beating that team running it the entire game.

That's the thing that was always going to kill us with Smith.

In the playoffs, at SOME point, your QB is going to have to put the game on his shoulders and win it with his arm. Maybe not every game and maybe only once in an entire SB run, but to win 3 games (or 4) against the best teams the league has to offer, your QB is going to have to be the man at some point.

A cap league built on parity is always gonna have some pretty wild shit happen when you get to the post-season. Nobody can just be clearly better than everyone else and blast through the post-season clean.

So maybe they would've been able to somehow run over the 49ers on the ground, who knows? But even had they gotten by TN, they weren't gonna do that to us AND San Francisco. At some point Jackson was gonna have to overcome adversity and throw them to a win.

And he's just not equipped to do that.

[DJ's left nut]

If I told you why Mike Freeman is picking Jackson I'd probably light the sub on fire so...

Oh there's no question that Mahomes just isn't 'black enough' for some guys.

Wilson and Mahomes aren't carrying the banner for the minority passer for some reason so they'll continue to carry a torch for Watson and Jackson.

It's just really bizarre.

[Chiefspants]

And you continue to ignore the fact that we’re talking about playoff football. Lamar would’ve had to throw the ball as well to beat the 49ers. They weren’t beating that team running it the entire game.

I'm not ignoring it, dude. From the beginning, I've said that Patrick Mahomes is a far superior QB to Lamar and that Lamar will always have to rely on his arm to beat the Chiefs, which he has been unable to do. This conversation has just gone how all of my conversations about Lamar Jackson have gone on Chiefsplanet, where people have a difficult time giving Lamar any credit for the success he's had this year.

It is possible to win a playoff game or two playoff games without relying on the pass. I think the Ravens style actually would have worked well against the 49ers (and it did earlier in the season - what run stuffer were the 49ers lacking in their early matchup?) Further on that point, how many pass attempts did the 49ers and Titans have on average when playing a team not named Kansas City this postseason? Unfortunately, as we found out through the 90's and through Alex Smith (as DJ pointed out), you are almost always going to need your QB to win a playoff game with his arm unless you're lucky enough to be the 2015 Denver Broncos. I've beaten this drum about Lamar from the beginning and why he's always going to struggle against Mahomes come playoff time. Ultimately for Lamar, if he continues to be unable to hit receivers outside the hash marks, he is going to need to have a dream playoff road like the 49ers (or 2015 Broncos) did and somehow avoid Kansas City or a stout rushing D in the playoffs, and that's always going to be a steep hill to climb.

When it comes to this thread's topic, we're actually in complete agreement. Lamar is nowhere close to the QB Mahomes is - where we disagreed was how Lamar would handle himself against the 49ers. My take is that a defense like the 49ers and the Patriots is actually not a great way to counter Lamar (just look at how the Ravens handled those defenses during the season) but rather, the best way to play defense against Lamar is by having an offense that forces him to throw the ball. Lamar isn't going to be pressured to throw against the Patriots or 49ers, to the contrary, those defenses want opposing offenses to throw, while Lamar and the Ravens will always take advantage of that and run at every opportunity they can.

As others have said, it'll be interesting to watch how Lamar does when he has two matchups a year against a stout Ravens D and Rapesburger on the other side of the field. If Rapesburger is anything like his 2018 self, Lamar may run into the same problems as he has against the Chiefs.

[staylor26]

If I told you why Mike Freeman is picking Jackson I'd probably light the sub on fire so...

Oh there's no question that Mahomes just isn't 'black enough' for some guys.

Wilson and Mahomes aren't carrying the banner for the minority passer for some reason so they'll continue to carry a torch for Watson and Jackson.

It's just really bizarre.

I almost went there, but chose not to.

But since Mecca did it first...

There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that some guys are legitimately scared to be labeled a racist for being critical of Lamar’s game.

I’m a member on a Hip-Hop forum and anytime I am critical of Lamar that’s what happens. Nvm that I like the player (drafted him for the Jags in the CP Mock that year).

[Chiefspants]

Oh there's no question that Mahomes just isn't 'black enough' for some guys.

Wilson and Mahomes aren't carrying the banner for the minority passer for some reason so they'll continue to carry a torch for Watson and Jackson.

It's just really bizarre.

Speaking of DeShaun, after watching his games this year through Gamepass I think he's overrated by the majority of NFL talking heads and even a lot of folks on this forum (who rate him above Lamar). DeShaun is a "good" QB, a fact that's supported by almost every metric, but he's often mistaken for an elite one.

DeShaun is Alex Smith who's not afraid to throw downhill and takes far, far too many hits per game playing hero ball. If DeShaun doesn't start releasing the ball sooner, I'd say there's a higher chance he'll burn out quicker in the NFL than Lamar.

[carcosa]

Lamar Jackson is very talented but this is a false comparison. He is at least two tiers below Mahomes as a QB.

[mdchiefsfan]

I hate how Lamar Jackson got appointed that 2nd best guy. Russell Wilson is still in his prime (though he's now hit 31 and will probably see a bit of a decline in coming years) and he's 10x the QB that Lamar is. I don't know if Aaron Rodgers will ever bounce back from the way Green Bay has completely cut his nuts off in their personnel building strategy, particularly with his age, but he's also still out there.

I'm not saying to never praise Lamar or celebrate him as a player. But if I'm a GM, and I can have any QB in the league, I'd start to consider Lamar after Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, and even then, I'd have to really think about if I want Lamar over Dak, Watson, and even someone like Stafford.

No question, Lamar is a solid talent and will win games (especially with the coaches he has).

But I want to see these ratings done again with something on the line to back up the choice. I guarantee the outcome would be much different if there was something to lose.

So it all boils down to hype.

[RunKC]

I just don’t know how you could watch that Titans vs Ravens game and come to the conclusion that the Ravens and Lamar could’ve gotten it done against that 49ers D at full strength.

Lamar struggled with Ingram out. He also had players like Hurst drop passes.

That’s why Hurst was offloaded and Dobbins was drafted.

[DJ's left nut]

I almost went there, but chose not to.

But since Mecca did it first...

There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that some guys are legitimately scared to be labeled a racist for being critical of Lamar’s game.

I’m a member on a Hip-Hop forum and anytime I am critical of Lamar that’s what happens. Nvm that I like the player (drafted him for the Jags in the CP Mock that year).

I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but you may be right.

It may be less about wanting to see a 'darker' quarterback succeed and more about not wanting to be perceived as racist for being critical of said quarterback.

Because there's little doubt that the Q rating in the minority community is just higher for Jackson and Watson. Wilson and Mahomes don't seem to get any more love from them than they do from white fans whereas there seems to be a clear 'boost' in the minority communities for Jackson and Watson. So if that's a crowd you just don't want to lock horns with, you soft-pedal criticisms just a little more.

[Redbled]

If any of those panelists were an NFL GM and had this choice they all take Mahomes. We all clicked on their article. They accomplished exactly what they wanted.

[DJ's left nut]

Lamar struggled with Ingram out. He also had players like Hurst drop passes.

That’s why Hurst was offloaded and Dobbins was drafted.

What I've never really understood was what Gus Edwards needs to do to get a little more credit/snaps.

Whenever he plays, he looks damn good out there. And suddenly he's gonna be the #3 runningback?

Shit, I'd have taken him to replace Williams long-term had we not drafted CEH. I think Edwards is really good back.

[staylor26]

I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but you may be right.

It may be less about wanting to see a 'darker' quarterback succeed and more about not wanting to be perceived as racist for being critical of said quarterback.

Because there's little doubt that the Q rating in the minority community is just higher for Jackson and Watson. Wilson and Mahomes don't seem to get any more love from them than they do from white fans whereas there seems to be a clear 'boost' in the minority communities for Jackson and Watson. So if that's a crowd you just don't want to lock horns with, you soft-pedal criticisms just a little more.

What makes it worse is the stats argument. If you are remotely critical of Lamar the passer, you get 2019 regular seasons stats thrown in your face. Context be damned.

So that’s when they go to “well if you can’t see it after he threw 30+ TD’s it must be because you’re racist!”.

Because you know throwing for 30 TD’s immediately makes you a great passer, just ask Blake Bortles!

[smithandrew051]

What makes it worse is the stats argument. If you are remotely critical of Lamar the passer, you get 2019 regular seasons stats thrown in your face. Context be damned.

So that’s when they go to “well if you can’t see it after he threw 30+ TD’s it must be because you’re racist!”.

Because you know throwing for 30 TD’s immediately makes you a great passer, just ask Blake Bortles!

It’s even funnier when people bring up his total yardage stats against the Titans as a positive.

Okay, he had 500 yards of total offense....which resulted in:

12 total points
8 of 11 drives ending in either a fumble, pick, or turnover on downs
A 28.7 QBR
A 63 RTG

The same people dismissed Mahomes’s AFC Championship performance against the Patriots because the Chiefs lost.

[Titty Meat]

Oh there's no question that Mahomes just isn't 'black enough' for some guys.

Wilson and Mahomes aren't carrying the banner for the minority passer for some reason so they'll continue to carry a torch for Watson and Jackson.

It's just really bizarre.

Its because those guys dont play the role of professional victim so it doesnt fit the narrative for what certain people want to push.

[Chiefspants]

Its because those guys dont play the role of professional victim so it doesnt fit the narrative for what certain people want to push.

Lamar does not fall into that category at all. The dude is outwardly more conservative than Mahomes and is a Trump supporter. If Lamar's blackness is looked at as more legitimate than Mahomes' in some circles, it's not due to his political affiliation.

I won't argue that point concerning Watson.

[DJ's left nut]

What makes it worse is the stats argument. If you are remotely critical of Lamar the passer, you get 2019 regular seasons stats thrown in your face. Context be damned.

So that’s when they go to “well if you can’t see it after he threw 30+ TD’s it must be because you’re racist!”.

Because you know throwing for 30 TD’s immediately makes you a great passer, just ask Blake Bortles!

I replied to a PFR guy on Twitter asking something about the predictive value of red zone TD/INT rates because Jackson killed in there last year (though Mariota has done that as well and...well, he's still Marcus Mariota). I wasn't combative at all - just asked a straight up objective question.

Seemed relevant because repeatability means a lot and there are a lot of stats (especially red zone production stats) that show ZERO year over year consistency. Being good at it one season just means you had a good season, not that you'll do it again the next season.

Got no response. And I get it, they get lots of replies to Tweets - but folks before and after me making far more innocuous and ultimately worthless comments got replies. I was actually giving them a shot at building on their stat because I genuinely don't know the answer and am curious if it's demonsrative of an actual long-term skill (as a Chiefs fan who things the Ravens had an amazing draft). Nada.

[rabblerouser]

I'd say there are literally 100+ guys in the NFL that would've smoked Lamar in that skills competition because Jackson just isn't a good passer. You can hide that for awhile, but there's just no avoiding it outright.
It gets exposed in the playoffs.

Even Alex Smith won a couple playoff games here and there.

Lamar Jackson is 0-2, and I don't see his percentage improving, you know, unless Cleveland or Cincinnati gets in as a wild card or something.

Of course, Cleveland beat Balt last year in the regular season, so...

[Mecca]

Lamar does not fall into that category at all. The dude is outwardly more conservative than Mahomes and is a Trump supporter. If Lamar's blackness is looked at as more legitimate than Mahomes' in some circles, it's not due to his political affiliation.

I won't argue that point concerning Watson.

I don't even know how much of it is actions, this is going to sound pretty fucked up but you can look at social media for 5 minutes and see it exists..

Patrick Mahomes has a white mother and a white girlfriend, to many black people he "doesn't even acknowledge he is black". To them he's a sellout, he's the face of the league and doing his best to embrace being white which to them hurts the black community.

Many black people feel this way about Mahomes, sad yet true.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

He's been total fucking dog shit in the playoffs...end of story

[SAUTO]

It gets exposed in the playoffs.

Even Alex Smith won a couple playoff games here and there.

Lamar Jackson is 0-2, and I don't see his percentage improving, you know, unless Cleveland or Cincinnati gets in as a wild card or something.

Of course, Cleveland beat Balt last year in the regular season, so...

so you are saying he's never going to win a playoff game unless it's against cleveland or cin.?


pretty stupid statement IMO.

[Basileus777]

The Titans had a far superior running defense to the (even full strength) 49ers.
The Titans were 9th in run DVOA and the 49ers were 11th for a massive .6% difference in run defense efficiency. So no, this is wrong.

[staylor26]

I replied to a PFR guy on Twitter asking something about the predictive value of red zone TD/INT rates because Jackson killed in there last year (though Mariota has done that as well and...well, he's still Marcus Mariota). I wasn't combative at all - just asked a straight up objective question.

Seemed relevant because repeatability means a lot and there are a lot of stats (especially red zone production stats) that show ZERO year over year consistency. Being good at it one season just means you had a good season, not that you'll do it again the next season.

Got no response. And I get it, they get lots of replies to Tweets - but folks before and after me making far more innocuous and ultimately worthless comments got replies. I was actually giving them a shot at building on their stat because I genuinely don't know the answer and am curious if it's demonsrative of an actual long-term skill (as a Chiefs fan who things the Ravens had an amazing draft). Nada.

Wouldn’t shock me at all if he dodged that one purposely, and it’s a damn fair question.

[Chiefspants]

I don't even know how much of it is actions, this is going to sound pretty ****ed up but you can look at social media for 5 minutes and see it exists..

Patrick Mahomes has a white mother and a white girlfriend, to many black people he "doesn't even acknowledge he is black". To them he's a sellout, he's the face of the league and doing his best to embrace being white which to them hurts the black community.

Many black people feel this way about Mahomes, sad yet true.

Yeah, sadly this has been a thing that extends much further back in U.S. history. Langston Hughes talked about this a lot through a lot of his work. Obama even got heat on this topic and we all know how pronounced this became with Russell Wilson.

If (and this is BIG if) this was Peters' beef with Mahomes (this has never been confirmed), it makes sense that Reid and FO worked to curtail that right away.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

:Poke:Hey now. Just look how y'all treat the gingers

[Chiefspants]

The Titans were 9th in run DVOA and the 49ers were 11th for a massive .6% difference in run defense efficiency. So no, this is wrong.

Yeah, the complete stats tell a better story imho.

..from Pro Football Reference and Football Outsiders.

The Titans D was 9th in rushing efficiency
The Niners D was 14th in rushing efficiency.

The Titans D was 12th in total YPG
The Niners D was 17th in total YPG

and

The Titans D was 7th in YPC.
The Niners D was 23rd in YPC.

We may disagree on this point, and that's okay.

[Basileus777]

Yeah, the complete stats tell a better story imho.

..from Pro Football Reference and Football Outsiders.

The Titans D was 9th in rushing efficiency
The Niners D was 14th in rushing efficiency.

The Titans D was 12th in total YPG
The Niners D was 17th in total YPG

and

The Titans D was 7th in YPC.
The Niners D was 23rd in YPC.

We may disagree on this point, and that's okay.
DVOA is a superior metric to raw yardage stats like this. The complete stat is DVOA, which takes down and distances and garbage time into account.

[DJ's left nut]

He's been total fucking dog shit in the playoffs...end of story

Sample size is still pretty small, but yeah, it's not been good.

He didn't look completely overwhelmed by the moment against TN like he did against LAC so I guess that's progress. He looked genuinely terrified against the Chargers and when you contrast that to how Mahomes has looked in every playoff game he's ever played, including as a first year starter, it's hard to say there's not a clear difference in mentalities there.

But I don't think it's any sort of foregone conclusion that he'll be routinely bad in the playoffs. It's just that he's going to face teams where he's more likely to get down at some point and have to claw back 'conventionally'.

I think the days of him shitting the bed to take the Ravens out of games are probably behind him. But there's a looooong way between being a guy who doesn't actively toss gas on the fire and being the guy who can pull your teammates out of it.

The NFL is littered with guys who can go with the tide and win it when their team is playing well against an evenly matched opponent. But there are a lot fewer guys who can overcome adversity or a superior squad.

Mahomes has clearly established himself as the latter - with a bullet. Jackson hasn't done anything close to that at this point and his style of play makes it fair to wonder just how likely it is he ever will.

[DJ's left nut]

DVOA is a superior metric to raw yardage stats like this. The complete stat is DVOA, which takes down and distances and garbage time into account.

Agreed. It also accounts for quality of opponent.

DVOA is among the better stats out there right now.

[Chiefspants]

DVOA is a superior metric to raw yardage stats like this. The complete stat is DVOA, which takes down and distances and garbage time into account.

Sure, I'll concede that point. But I will say that the empirical example of the Niners vs Ravens this year still proves my point here. The Niners were missing Dee Ford, which if anything was a positive for them going into that match-up. They loaded the box almost every play and even had the elements on their side (it was pouring rain) and still got gashed on the regular against the Ravens. It was enough of a liability that Andy made the run a priority against the Niners in the Super Bowl. Before Patrick's kneeldowns, the Chiefs had actually outrushed the 49ers in the Super Bowl (144 v 141).

I will die on the hill that the Niners run D got exposed against the Ravens and Chiefs this year. What killed the Ravens against the Titans is that they were unable to deliver on 3rd and shorts and 4th and shorts due to the brick wall that was Casey and the Titans beef in the interior D-line. The 49ers did not have a counter like that, and I think Harbaugh would have run the ball until the Niners forced Lamar to throw, which I'm unsure if they would have been able to do.

[Titty Meat]

He's been total ****ing dog shit in the playoffs...end of story

He threw for like 350 and rushed for 140 yards vs the Titans lol

[staylor26]

He threw for like 350 and rushed for 140 yards vs the Titans lol

He had 59 fucking attempts and threw 2 INT’s LMAO

[Chiefspants]

He had 59 ****ing attempts and threw 2 INT’s LMAO

He played like refried ass against the Titans.

The Titans interior run D was able to get the early 4th down stops against the Ravens that other teams couldn't and once the Ravens were down by 14+, Lamar had to throw. Honestly it was like a redux of his matchup against the Chiefs this year, but this time, his 50/50 throws went the other way.

Lamar and the Ravens are always going to have to hope to avoid the Chiefs or get the 2019 49ers route if they want to make the Super Bowl. Even Ravens' fans know they can't hang with Kansas City with their 2019 squad.

[Titty Meat]

He had 59 ****ing attempts and threw 2 INT’s LMAO

143 rushing yards tho

[smithandrew051]

It’s even funnier when people bring up his total yardage stats against the Titans as a positive.

Okay, he had 500 yards of total offense....which resulted in:

12 total points
8 of 11 drives ending in either a fumble, pick, or turnover on downs
A 28.7 QBR
A 63 RTG

The same people dismissed Mahomes’s AFC Championship performance against the Patriots because the Chiefs lost.

Since someone brought up his stats against the Titans lol

[Titty Meat]

Who dismissed Mahomes performance against the Pats? Lol

[Titty Meat]

I'm not even a Jackson fan and doubt he lasts long taking all of that punishment but if you tell me my QB is going to have 500 yards of offense I'd take it.

[Pitt Gorilla]

He had 59 ****ing attempts and threw 2 INT’s LMAO
Only slightly statistically better than Mahomes MVP Super Bowl stats.

[Chiefspants]

Only slightly statistically better than Mahomes MVP Super Bowl stats.

Do what?

Mahomes passing stats were clearly superior against a much better passing D.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Do what?

Mahomes passing stats were clearly superior against a much better passing D. I agree. I was referring specifically to the interceptions per attempt highlighted in the post I quoted.

[Chiefspants]

I agree. I was referring specifically to the interceptions per attempt highlighted in the post I quoted.

Ah, I got you.

[DJ's left nut]

I'm not even a Jackson fan and doubt he lasts long taking all of that punishment but if you tell me my QB is going to have 500 yards of offense I'd take it.

But that 500 yards yielded 12 points and a huge chunk of it came in the 4th quarter when they were down 28 to 6. And why were they down 28-6? Because the threw a bad interception but more critically, because he took an AWFUL sack/strip that came about as a direct result of him simply having no pocket presence at all.

A 14-6 game at halftime as over by the start of the 4th because Jackson got stuffed on 4th down, got picked and demonstrated Cassellian feel for the pocket.

Then in the 4th he did some of that Jackson shit to rack up yards when things were decided. In the end, he played pretty damn poorly, numbers or no.

But like I said - it was still an improvement over the Chargers game. In the Titans game he looked like a marginally talented passer who was trying to do too much. In the Chargers game he looked like a scared child. So I guess I'd take the former and call it progress...

I think the Ravens have built an awesome roster and they've done a lot to win around Lamar. But I really do wonder if long-term they wouldn't be better served dealing Lamar for a kings ransom and trying build a real aerial attack.

Orlovsky says he'd rather have Darnold than Jackson. I don't think he's right...but I'm not exactly sure he's wrong either.

[O.city]

But that 500 yards yielded 12 points and a huge chunk of it came in the 4th quarter when they were down 28 to 6. And why were they down 28-6? Because the threw a bad interception but more critically, because he took an AWFUL sack/strip that came about as a direct result of him simply having no pocket presence at all.

A 14-6 game at halftime as over by the start of the 4th because Jackson got stuffed on 4th down, got picked and demonstrated Cassellian feel for the pocket.

Then in the 4th he did some of that Jackson shit to rack up yards when things were decided. In the end, he played pretty damn poorly, numbers or no.

But like I said - it was still an improvement over the Chargers game. In the Titans game he looked like a marginally talented passer who was trying to do too much. In the Chargers game he looked like a scared child. So I guess I'd take the former and call it progress...

I think the Ravens have built an awesome roster and they've done a lot to win around Lamar. But I really do wonder if long-term they wouldn't be better served dealing Lamar for a kings ransom and trying build a real aerial attack.

Orlovsky says he'd rather have Darnold than Jackson. I don't think he's right...but I'm not exactly sure he's wrong either.

All the talk is "once he improves his accuracy and footwork" and such. Legitimately, how many guys get to the NFL and improve that? Footwork is repetition sure, but all that shit is muscle memory and muscle memory once you get to the NFL is pretty solidly engrained.

[mr. tegu]

Jackson showed in the playoffs that when things aren’t going his way he can’t handle it. He pouts, gets frustrated, and loses focus. That will absolutely cost them games this season as he won’t be so comfortable all season.

Also, how bad was the AFC North last season? There was zero competence from any of those teams in any phase of the game besides possibly the Steelers defense. Bet the Ravens under win total. It’s easy money. They can only win one way, and that one way has a small margin of error.

[DJ's left nut]

All the talk is "once he improves his accuracy and footwork" and such. Legitimately, how many guys get to the NFL and improve that? Footwork is repetition sure, but all that shit is muscle memory and muscle memory once you get to the NFL is pretty solidly engrained.

And at a point having to reach back to find velocity will keep a cap on your accuracy.

If you lob a paper wad at a trashcan, you're a lot more likely to hit it than you will be if you reach back and throw it as hard as you can. The idea of 'overthrowing' is used w/ pitchers all the time but it applies to anyone that throws a ball for a living. Infielders do it, point guards do it and yes, quarterbacks do it.

So when Jackson has to use 90% of his effort to get a 25 yard out route the 40 yards it needs to travel, he's gonna have less accuracy than Mahomes using 60% of his effort to make the same throw.

There are simply limits on how good Lamar Jackson will ever be as a passer because he just does not have elite arm talent. All the practice in the world won't change that. All he can do is become some sort of elite processor out there and even that will leave him forever at the mercy of the defenses he's facing and scheme. Even at his apex he will be subject to being outsmarted in a key spot and if that happens, he's screwed.

As opposed to Mahomes, who may get outfoxed here and there but even if that happens, he can simply lean on superior arm talent that Jackson doesn't have and never will. So Jackson's margin for error will always be small (and the excuses made for him large).

[ThyKingdomCome15]

Jackson has to get it done in the Playoffs. It's really that simple.

[smithandrew051]

All the talk is "once he improves his accuracy and footwork" and such. Legitimately, how many guys get to the NFL and improve that? Footwork is repetition sure, but all that shit is muscle memory and muscle memory once you get to the NFL is pretty solidly engrained.

I agree with this. If improving accuracy was easy (or even possible), there would be very few busts at the position.

Guys can improve their decision making, but I’m not sold that accuracy will improve all that much.

[BWillie]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the 3 years before Jackson gets Alex Smithed

Fixed your poast.

[O.city]

The thing is there are just so many factors into accuracy that it's just damn hard if you don't have it. It seems alot of it is innate.

Anticipation, mechanics, feel etc.

Tough to learn

[LTL]

Jackson has to get it done in the Playoffs. It's really that simple.

I scrolling thru and reading posts and accidentally down voted the post. I agree with this though.

[BWillie]

Jackson showed in the playoffs that when things aren’t going his way he can’t handle it. He pouts, gets frustrated, and loses focus. That will absolutely cost them games this season as he won’t be so comfortable all season.

Also, how bad was the AFC North last season? There was zero competence from any of those teams in any phase of the game besides possibly the Steelers defense. Bet the Ravens under win total. It’s easy money. They can only win one way, and that one way has a small margin of error.

I think it has to do with having a run first type of offense. It makes you one dimensional. In Baltimore's wins last year almost all of them they either scored first or were winning at the end of the 1st quarter. If they got behind, it made them a much more exploitable offense.

We saw that they struggled to play from behind against Tennessee. Whereas we played from behind many times and came back with ease because of Patrick Mahomes and this offense...and don't forget the defense stepping up to get key stops.

Jackson needs to further continue to advance as a passer, and run less. The best QB's throw first, run only if they have to get a 1st down. We all remember the Alex Smiff days, he would take off and get 5 yards on 2nd and 15 when he had a guy open down the field. He took the easy play, not the explosive play. I'm not saying Jackson plays like Alex Smith, because his run game is also electrifying but passing the ball is more lethal and difficult to defend at least in big plays. That is the way the league is now and it's by design.

[Chiefspants]

Fixed your poast.

That’s more likely to happen to Watson right now IMO.

[mr. tegu]

In a way it makes me sad that the defense is better now. It greatly reduces the opportunity for awesome Mahomes stats. Last season he only had 79 passing attempt in the fourth quarter with 3 TDs. Only 16% of his attempts. We hardly even try to score in the fourth quarter anymore.

Comparing situationally to Jackson also shows how much more his stats were padded last season. 23% of his attempts where in the fourth quarter. That’s a lot for a team with a lot of blowout victories. Jackson threw 27 of his 36 TDs when ahead. 14 of those TDs were when they were ahead by 9 or more points. He only had 9 TD passes when tied or behind. The attempts when ahead versus tied and behind are also very equal. 7 fourth quarter TDs with only one coming when the score was within 7 points. He built his stats by piling them on unnecessarily. Without those he will be average at best in passing stats.

Mahomes on the other hand did very little scoring situationally to pad stats. Half of his TDs, 13, were when we were tied or behind. Only 6 of his TDs were when we were ahead by nine or more points. Mahomes could probably have easily added 10 TDs last season if we kept trying to score like the Ravens.

[KC_Connection]

All you have to do to beat Lamar Jackson is limit his running opportunities and force him to pass the ball (which, while not easy, has proven repeatedly to be the solution for him).

In contrast, there is no way to stop Mahomes.

This isn't hard.

[Frazod]

Mahomes can drop a football in a bucket 60 yards downfield. Jackson would be like, "there's a bucket down there?"

I know who I want on my team. And after years of suffering, I've finally got him.

[L.A. Chieffan]

After rewatching the 2018 Ravens game and 2019 game I can say that Lamar definitely improved his game from the year previous. But then again so has Patrick. Mahomes looks so much more comfortable in the pocket, which is amazing to me since I couldn't really tell you he looked BAD his first season. Just night and day tho really.

Lamar is a beast he really is no joke all respect. But Mahomes is just his MJ to Lamars Clyde Drexler. Sucks for him lol

[DJ's left nut]

The thing is there are just so many factors into accuracy that it's just damn hard if you don't have it. It seems alot of it is innate.

Anticipation, mechanics, feel etc.

Tough to learn

Biomechanics.

Either your body can repeat its motion or it can't. The Drew Brees sports science absolutely hammered home how tiny the degrees of difference can be and how huge those impact accuracy.

I mean if the tip of the ball comes out even a fraction of a degree differently than you expected because your wrist wasn't at exactly the spot you thought it was as you snapped it, you get a ball that sails on you and a pick.

Put it this way (I stole this from XKCD): When you're throwing a ball at high speeds, the margin for error - the release 'window' - is open for less time than it takes for the nerve impulse to go from your brain to your hand. This is why human beings are the only thing that can throw with any routine degree of accuracy. Even primates flinging shit ain't that accurate.


https://what-if.xkcd.com/44/

So while there are other animals that use projectiles, we’re just about the only animal that can grab a random object and reliably nail a target. In fact, we’re so good at it that some researchers have suggested rock-throwing played a central role in the evolution of the modern human brain.[3][4]

Throwing is hard. In order to deliver a baseball to a batter, a pitcher has to release the ball at exactly the right point in the throw. A timing error of half a millisecond in either direction is enough to cause the ball to miss the strike zone.[5]

To put that in perspective, it takes about five milliseconds for the fastest nerve impulse to travel the length of the arm.[6] That means that when your arm is still rotating toward the correct position, the signal to release the ball is already at your wrist. In terms of timing, this is like a drummer dropping a drumstick from the 10th story and hitting a drum on the ground on the correct beat.



It's also why people learning to throw tend to rocket the ball straight into the ground. Because when your telling your hand to release the ball, the time it takes to get that nerve impulse to your hand is too long and the release comes late. So your brain has to literally 'cheat' ahead to make you capable of throwing a ball accurately.

"Just get more accurate" is the most pipe-dream shit any coach or player ever says. It's IMPOSSIBLY difficult to throw something accurately. So much so that your brain and body has to re-wire itself for you to even toss a nerf ball worth a damn.

And I'm supposed to believe that, after all the self-selection that it took for these guys to make it even this far, that they have a whole lot left to offer in that regard?

All they can do is work around the level of accuracy they have. Make more cautious decisions or throw into larger windows. Coaches can try to dial down the risk (shorter passes) or amp up the reward (higher risk, higher yardage passes). There are ways to work around mediocre accuracy but there's pretty much no way to simply eliminate it.

[Chiefspants]

^ This is the reason why Weis' big project to get Cassel to "learn" Brees' mechanics was always doomed to fail.

[PurpleRiders51]

Ravens Twitter is the most delusional bunch of fans in the world. If you say anything even remotely south of praise about Lamar you either get labeled a hater, thirsty Chiefs fan or a racist (for some reason.) He's just not a accurate passer despite the stats they always pull up to "prove" otherwise.

[DJ's left nut]

^ This is the reason why Weis' big project to get Cassel "learn" Brees' mechanics was always doomed to fail.

That's why I'd take a gamble on Jameis Winston (leadership and intangibles notwithstanding) over Josh Allen.

Allen's just inaccurate. He'll always be inaccurate and there's not much you can do about it.

Meanwhile Jameis is stupid and imprecise. He makes a lot of bad decisions and those are compounded by the occasional flyaway where his body betrays him. But they aren't nearly as routine as Allen's.

You can work w/ Jameis and gameplan around his flaws. You can maybe even coach some of the stupid out of him. But you can't do a damn thing with the kind of inaccuracy Josh Allen will always have. He's as inaccurate a passer as I've seen outside of the truly laughable Tebow types.

[DJ's left nut]

Ravens Twitter is the most delusional bunch of fans in the world. If you say anything even remotely praise about Lamar you either get labeled a hater, thirsty Chiefs fan or a racist (for some reason.) He's just not a accurate passer despite the stats they always pull up to "prove" otherwise.

He's a large window passer. He doesn't try to do too much so if you give him a large window to throw it into and a guy with a big catch radius (or a really fast guy that can pull away into space) he can do something with that. That's how he was able to excel in college, where large windows are common.

But things like those speed outs that we run with Hill - he just can't hit 'em. The window is just too small, regardless of how good your timing is. Hell, even Alex could hit those passes and that was without someone like Hill. He was getting those into Conley on occasion.

But you just supercharge it when you take someone like Mahomes and give him Hill.

[SAUTO]

I'm not even a Jackson fan and doubt he lasts long taking all of that punishment but if you tell me my QB is going to have 500 yards of offense I'd take it.
You didn't watch the game?

[PurpleRiders51]

I think Mahomes vs Tua is actually going to be the matchup rivalry if Tua stays healthy.

[Titty Meat]

You didn't watch the game?

I did. Jackson was inaccurate but to call 500 yards of offensive production "dog shit" is a stretch. Also give credit to the Titans they did the same thing to the Ravens as they did the Patriots, and for about 1.5 quarters to us as well.

Again I'm not even a Jackson fan but I wouldnt put that loss all on him nor would I even pretend hes in the same league as Mahomes in terms of QB play.

[DRM08]

It's kinda like this quote from the article:

"As good as Mahomes is—and he's great—it's hard to see him improving upon the type of numbers we've already seen."

So Mahomes gets downvoted because it will be hard to improve on 50 F-ING TDs AND 5,000 YARDS(!)

I would say Lamar’s stats from 2019 are not sustainable either.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Yardage Stats ROFL

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Baltimore Ravens...2019 Regular season champions

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

It's different this time, again

[OKchiefs]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the next decade.

Jackson just had the best season he'll ever have. He's a backup somewhere by no later than the age of 30.

[CarlosCarson27]

Jackson just had the best season he'll ever have. He's a backup somewhere by no later than the age of 30.

25 or 26

[Frazod]

Baltimore Ravens...2019 Regular season champions

I remember when we were always regular season champs.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/better-you-than-94cxgf.jpg

[RINGLEADER]

Sorry if Q but...

Mahomes post-season: 4-1
Jackson post-season: 0-2

[RINGLEADER]

It's different this time, again

Jackson is a 50% passer averaging 200 ypg against the Chiefs. He’ll need to do better there too.

[ljmhawk]

Mahomes vs Jackson will be fun to watch over the next decade.

mahomes vs watson will be better

[Chiefspants]

mahomes vs watson will be better

I don’t think so.

Watson is an Alex Smith who’s not afraid to throw downfield. But Watson just lost the receiver he threw 50% of his passes to since entering the NFL. Watson also takes far more hits than Lamar does playing hero ball.

[MMXcalibur]

Due to taking more hits off his scrambling, Lamar Jackson is going to be nowhere near as effective after 2-3 more seasons.

Mahomes has 15+ years as long as he doesn't decide to take on defenders like he did vs Jimmy Ward in the Super Bowl.

[DRM08]

I think the easiest way to settle this debate. Would KC trade Mahomes straight up for Lamar? Not a chance in hell. Would Baltimore trade Lamar straight up for Mahomes? Probably faster than the blink of an eye.

[DJ's left nut]

Due to taking more hits off his scrambling, Lamar Jackson is going to be nowhere near as effective after 2-3 more seasons.

Mahomes has 15+ years as long as he doesn't decide to take on defenders like he did vs Jimmy Ward in the Super Bowl.

Eh.

Jackson doesn't actually take too many hits. The whole 'you can't hit what you can't catch' thing really applies to him. He is the most elusive player in the league. His feel for running the football is on par with Mahomes feel for throwing it. He just has an innate understanding of his body and how to manipulate it into space. It's really impressive stuff. He's a unique guy on par with Mahomes, Hill and Aaron Donald - guys who can just do things physically that other guys cannot do.

But here's the thing - EVERYONE gets slower. Age is just a bitch - everyone loses a step.

By 27 years old, simply playing football will have taken some starch out of his legs even if he doesn't get rocked a few times/yr. Even if he never gets injured, he's gonna get just a little slower every year. And over a few years, even small increments you didn't notice at the time start to compound and become noticeable.

He won't have the shelf-life Mahomes will have because he simply relies too much on innate athleticism. Now he'll probably get injured at some point but hell, Brady got injured. Mahomes got injured. Play football for any period of time and you're gonna get injured. But he's so unique in how he protects himself that I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be MORE prone to being injured than most unless and until teams in his division just decide "Fuck it - take the L this week but make him feel it..." Because that decision will need to be a long-term investment, so to speak. Lose now to win later - that really only applies to teams in their division.

In the end being a running QB may get him hit 10-15 yards downfield a little more, but it'll be a DB breaking down to try to keep from being made look like an idiot. Gimme a safety lunging at whatever he can grab over a 265 lb edge rusher that clocks a 4.65 coming off the edge and putting a shoulder into my spine. His style prevents some of those because you just can't crash upfield on him as often at the risk of leaving rushing lanes open.

Jackson's a good player who can easily be very good for a long time. But FFS, Patrick Mahomes is going to be the best that ever lived. Let's chill the fuck out trying to build this 'rivalry' at the expense of common sense.

[Halfcan]

After watching them both at Arrowhead during the Home Opener- it was not even close. Mahomes threw majestic passes while Jackson threw ducks.

[DJ's left nut]

After watching them both at Arrowhead during the Home Opener- it was not even close. Mahomes threw majestic passes while Jackson threw ducks.

He made some throw in the first quarter of that game where he had a RB about 8 yards away and he just spiked it into the ground.

I'm sitting there after a week of being told about the big bad Lamar Jackson machine that was coming to take down the young prince and had a Two Towers moment.

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="OYCeiLS"><a href="//imgur.com/OYCeiLS">Whenever I find out that somebody has tried to downvote everything in my account</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Sure this wasn't the guy that was going to topple the guy that threw for 50/5K the year before...

And ultimately when the story was written - he wasn't. And won't be.

[smithandrew051]

After watching them both at Arrowhead during the Home Opener- it was not even close. Mahomes threw majestic passes while Jackson threw ducks.

That was also the game where he threw the ball at his receiver’s leg on fourth down and the announcer said he was smart because he didn’t want to risk throwing a pick...reminder: it was fourth down.

[smithandrew051]

Do we give this argument legitimacy by actually acknowledging it? Maybe we should just ignore these ridiculous questions....fuck it. Nothing else to do during the Rona.

[DJ's left nut]

That was also the game where he threw the ball at his receiver’s leg on fourth down and the announcer said he was smart because he didn’t want to risk throwing a pick...reminder: it was fourth down.

Had to be Booger...

[Bob Dole]

Sorry if Q but...

Mahomes post-season: 4-1
Jackson post-season: 0-2

And Dak is worth 50 million!

[smithandrew051]

Had to be Booger...

Fouts actually

[RealSNR]

Jackson just had the best season he'll ever have. He's a backup somewhere by no later than the age of 30.

The Ravens held on to Joe Fucco for how long? If Lamar can run, they'll keep playing him.

[ROYC75]

Eh.

Jackson doesn't actually take too many hits. The whole 'you can't hit what you can't catch' thing really applies to him. He is the most elusive player in the league. His feel for running the football is on par with Mahomes feel for throwing it. He just has an innate understanding of his body and how to manipulate it into space. It's really impressive stuff. He's a unique guy on par with Mahomes, Hill and Aaron Donald - guys who can just do things physically that other guys cannot do.

But here's the thing - EVERYONE gets slower. Age is just a bitch - everyone loses a step.

By 27 years old, simply playing football will have taken some starch out of his legs even if he doesn't get rocked a few times/yr. Even if he never gets injured, he's gonna get just a little slower every year. And over a few years, even small increments you didn't notice at the time start to compound and become noticeable.

He won't have the shelf-life Mahomes will have because he simply relies too much on innate athleticism. Now he'll probably get injured at some point but hell, Brady got injured. Mahomes got injured. Play football for any period of time and you're gonna get injured. But he's so unique in how he protects himself that I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be MORE prone to being injured than most unless and until teams in his division just decide "**** it - take the L this week but make him feel it..." Because that decision will need to be a long-term investment, so to speak. Lose now to win later - that really only applies to teams in their division.

In the end being a running QB may get him hit 10-15 yards downfield a little more, but it'll be a DB breaking down to try to keep from being made look like an idiot. Gimme a safety lunging at whatever he can grab over a 265 lb edge rusher that clocks a 4.65 coming off the edge and putting a shoulder into my spine. His style prevents some of those because you just can't crash upfield on him as often at the risk of leaving rushing lanes open.

Jackson's a good player who can easily be very good for a long time. But FFS, Patrick Mahomes is going to be the best that ever lived. Let's chill the **** out trying to build this 'rivalry' at the expense of common sense.

Well said!

[MahomesMagic]

I was a huge Lamar Jackson booster in the 2018 draft. It was obvious to me that he was better than a Josh Rosen, who never should have went in the 1st.

That said, there is no comparison with Mahomes. Lamar is a much better passer than people gave credit for but Lamar does not have Mahomes arm talent.

[RealSNR]

Eh.

Jackson doesn't actually take too many hits. The whole 'you can't hit what you can't catch' thing really applies to him. He is the most elusive player in the league. His feel for running the football is on par with Mahomes feel for throwing it. He just has an innate understanding of his body and how to manipulate it into space. It's really impressive stuff. He's a unique guy on par with Mahomes, Hill and Aaron Donald - guys who can just do things physically that other guys cannot do.

But here's the thing - EVERYONE gets slower. Age is just a bitch - everyone loses a step.

By 27 years old, simply playing football will have taken some starch out of his legs even if he doesn't get rocked a few times/yr. Even if he never gets injured, he's gonna get just a little slower every year. And over a few years, even small increments you didn't notice at the time start to compound and become noticeable.

He won't have the shelf-life Mahomes will have because he simply relies too much on innate athleticism. Now he'll probably get injured at some point but hell, Brady got injured. Mahomes got injured. Play football for any period of time and you're gonna get injured. But he's so unique in how he protects himself that I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be MORE prone to being injured than most unless and until teams in his division just decide "Fuck it - take the L this week but make him feel it..." Because that decision will need to be a long-term investment, so to speak. Lose now to win later - that really only applies to teams in their division.

In the end being a running QB may get him hit 10-15 yards downfield a little more, but it'll be a DB breaking down to try to keep from being made look like an idiot. Gimme a safety lunging at whatever he can grab over a 265 lb edge rusher that clocks a 4.65 coming off the edge and putting a shoulder into my spine. His style prevents some of those because you just can't crash upfield on him as often at the risk of leaving rushing lanes open.

Jackson's a good player who can easily be very good for a long time. But FFS, Patrick Mahomes is going to be the best that ever lived. Let's chill the fuck out trying to build this 'rivalry' at the expense of common sense.

Sounds to me like Lamar Jackson should have played WR!

(Yes, I'm joking, but I'm still about 10% serious)

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

Rocker vs cawker

[TomBarndtsTwin]

And Dak is worth 50 million!

Yeah, it's not JUST about Mahomes vs. Lamar.

Deshaun Watson is also brought in to the argument as best young QB, due to his draft position being almost immediately behind Mahomes and the 'success' he's had.

And then, yeah, Dak Prescott (Skip's lovechild), who only gets love because he plays in and for Dallas. He's not garbage, admittedly, but his name doesn't even deserve to be mentioned alongside Mahomes.

Anyway, in the last 4 years, each of these 4 QB's have been in the playoffs twice (Mahomes 2 for 2 as the starter, Lamar 2 for 2, Watson 2 for 3 and Dak twice in his first four seasons). You can argue the merits of who had the better overall team each year, but I think it's fair to say that ALL of them had good teams around them during their playoff years. Dak's team was 13-3 his rookie year, Lamar's 14-2 team last year, Watson's back to back division winners and same for Mahomes.

So how do they perform on the NFL's biggest stage with good playoff caliber teams backing them up:

Mahomes 4-1
Lamar 0-2
Watson 1-2
Dak 1-2

There's a million different stats you can dig into and analyze regarding playoff performance, but the most important trait is winning in the playoffs. Period. It's why most regard Brady as the GOAT, instead of Peyton, and why most considered Montana the GOAT before Brady (as opposed to one of his elite peers like Elway or Marino). Yes, you can't really compare QB's across eras. It's not really a fair comparison. But you can compare elite QB's with elite QB's from their own era. There's a reason Montana and Brady were acknowledged as the best (and still are) from their era.

Some guys just know how to elevate their game to another level and to do it consistently over time in the playoffs, not just a one or 2 year good run. Obviously, that story has yet to be written with most of these guys as they've only each had 2 opportunities to prove themselves in that dimension.

But only ONE guy has managed to climb into the conversation of potential All-Time QB's and that is MOSTLY due to his post-season play. A stage where he has shined brightest, while his other young talented contemporaries have come up short.

We are SO ****ing lucky to have a QB like Pat and the next decade is going to be one hell of a ride!

[Rain Man]

You have to think that they forced three guys to pick Jackson just so they had an article to produce. If those three guys really picked Jackson, then they shouldn't be involved in sportswriting because they're not very bright.

I'd be ticked off if the publisher told me to pick anyone but Mahomes. It makes you look stupid to do that.

[tredadda]

Best thing about Lamar is he is employed by a top 5 organization. He will always have talent as long as he’s there

We will find out in a couple of years when they have to back the Brinks truck up to pay Jackson who by that time could command the second highest QB salty in the league.

[tredadda]

What makes it worse is the stats argument. If you are remotely critical of Lamar the passer, you get 2019 regular seasons stats thrown in your face. Context be damned.

So that’s when they go to “well if you can’t see it after he threw 30+ TD’s it must be because you’re racist!”.

Because you know throwing for 30 TD’s immediately makes you a great passer, just ask Blake Bortles!

I remember one game last year where Jackson threw for like 4 or 5 TDs but under 200 yards. That says a lot. That team would run,run, short pass and then when they got inside the 5 they would pass for a TD. Harbaugh was doing that to purposely prop up his numbers to boost his chances at MVP and it worked.

[staylor26]

I remember one game last year where Jackson threw for like 4 or 5 TDs but under 200 yards. That says a lot. That team would run,run, short pass and then when they got inside the 5 they would pass for a TD. Harbaugh was doing that to purposely prop up his numbers to boost his chances at MVP and it worked.

Yup. I feel like almost every time I looked he was throwing multiple TD’s with under 250 yards passing. It wasn’t your typical 30+ TD season, that’s for sure.

[ThaVirus]

I remember one game last year where Jackson threw for like 4 or 5 TDs but under 200 yards. That says a lot. That team would run,run, short pass and then when they got inside the 5 they would pass for a TD. Harbaugh was doing that to purposely prop up his numbers to boost his chances at MVP and it worked.

Why would Harbaugh do that?

[mililo4cpa]

Eh.

Jackson doesn't actually take too many hits. The whole 'you can't hit what you can't catch' thing really applies to him. He is the most elusive player in the league. His feel for running the football is on par with Mahomes feel for throwing it. He just has an innate understanding of his body and how to manipulate it into space. It's really impressive stuff. He's a unique guy on par with Mahomes, Hill and Aaron Donald - guys who can just do things physically that other guys cannot do.

But here's the thing - EVERYONE gets slower. Age is just a bitch - everyone loses a step.

By 27 years old, simply playing football will have taken some starch out of his legs even if he doesn't get rocked a few times/yr. Even if he never gets injured, he's gonna get just a little slower every year. And over a few years, even small increments you didn't notice at the time start to compound and become noticeable.

He won't have the shelf-life Mahomes will have because he simply relies too much on innate athleticism. Now he'll probably get injured at some point but hell, Brady got injured. Mahomes got injured. Play football for any period of time and you're gonna get injured. But he's so unique in how he protects himself that I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be MORE prone to being injured than most unless and until teams in his division just decide "Fuck it - take the L this week but make him feel it..." Because that decision will need to be a long-term investment, so to speak. Lose now to win later - that really only applies to teams in their division.

In the end being a running QB may get him hit 10-15 yards downfield a little more, but it'll be a DB breaking down to try to keep from being made look like an idiot. Gimme a safety lunging at whatever he can grab over a 265 lb edge rusher that clocks a 4.65 coming off the edge and putting a shoulder into my spine. His style prevents some of those because you just can't crash upfield on him as often at the risk of leaving rushing lanes open.

Jackson's a good player who can easily be very good for a long time. But FFS, Patrick Mahomes is going to be the best that ever lived. Let's chill the fuck out trying to build this 'rivalry' at the expense of common sense.

After watching several Ravens games, it is pretty remarkable how infrequent Jackson takes big hits from players.....but he does take them, and he does "hit" the ground a lot....so I think it's more the ground hits that will put wear and tear on him than that one nasty hit a LB lays on him. The ground, v. an elbow here, or a knee there, etc. etc., will start to pile up. So, as of now, he has about 1.5 seasons on the field roughly, but in QB terms, probably more like 5 seasons worth of hitting the ground....that will add up, and with his inability to command a game by throwing the ball, he'll have to keep running to keep the Ravens in games....it will catch up to him quick I believe

[Shields68]

You have to think that they forced three guys to pick Jackson just so they had an article to produce. If those three guys really picked Jackson, then they shouldn't be involved in sportswriting because they're not very bright.

I'd be ticked off if the publisher told me to pick anyone but Mahomes. It makes you look stupid to do that.

That is my take. The ones taking Jackson talk about his potential and that he will continue to improve. Not even trying to make a case he is currently better then Mahomes.

[DJ's left nut]

Why would Harbaugh do that?

Yeah - that one seems a bridge too far.

This ain't Madden - scoring more TDs won't get Jackson a boost in his overall ratings or anything.

Bottom line is that the Ravens scored a lot - period. Across the NFL there were 1274 offensive TDs scored, 797 of them through the air. So league-wide, 63% of all offensive TDs were scored via touchdown pass.

The Ravens scored 37 of their 58 through the air - 64% That's less than the Chiefs at 30 of 46 (65%).

Gonna say the 'Harbaugh was pumping Jackson's stats" thing just...isn't a thing. They were pretty much league average in throwing TDs.

[DJ's left nut]

After watching several Ravens games, it is pretty remarkable how infrequent Jackson takes big hits from players.....but he does take them, and he does "hit" the ground a lot....so I think it's more the ground hits that will put wear and tear on him than that one nasty hit a LB lays on him. The ground, v. an elbow here, or a knee there, etc. etc., will start to pile up. So, as of now, he has about 1.5 seasons on the field roughly, but in QB terms, probably more like 5 seasons worth of hitting the ground....that will add up, and with his inability to command a game by throwing the ball, he'll have to keep running to keep the Ravens in games....it will catch up to him quick I believe

Maybe - but think of how often Mahomes stands in, delivers a pass and 'hits the ground' when he's given a shove as the ball comes out. And those are almost always more awkward landings than a runner who's able to brace for contact.

I think the amount of contact Jackson takes, especially hard contact w/ a meaningful result, is pretty overstated.

[staylor26]

Why would Harbaugh do that?

Did you watch the Ravens on TNF against the Jets?

Dude went for it on 4th down up 20+ points late in the game in his own territory. I’ve never seen anything like it. They kept throwing it after that too.

I’m not saying it was for sure so Lamar could get MVP, but it was the most logical conclusion I could come to for something I’ve honestly never seen before in an NFL game.

[DJ's left nut]

Did you watch the Ravens on TNF against the Jets?

Dude went for it on 4th down up 20+ points late in the game in his own territory. I’ve never seen anything like it. They kept throwing it after that too.

I’m not saying it was for sure so Lamar could get MVP, but it was the most logical conclusion I could come to for something I’ve honestly never seen before in an NFL game.

I'd rather be flayed alive...

[staylor26]

I'd rather be flayed alive...

Lol I was watching for fantasy purposes (playing against Lamar in a playoff game for a $10,000 pot).

When that fucker went for it on 4th down up 20+ in his own territory I fucking lost it.

I mean who does that?

[CasselGotPeedOn]

I did. Jackson was inaccurate but to call 500 yards of offensive production "dog shit" is a stretch. Also give credit to the Titans they did the same thing to the Ravens as they did the Patriots, and for about 1.5 quarters to us as well.

Again I'm not even a Jackson fan but I wouldnt put that loss all on him nor would I even pretend hes in the same league as Mahomes in terms of QB play.

246 of those yards came after they were down 28-6.

[DJ's left nut]

Lol I was watching for fantasy purposes (playing against Lamar in a playoff game for a $10,000 pot).

When that fucker went for it on 4th down up 20+ in his own territory I fucking lost it.

I mean who does that?

He is a Harbaugh.

I mean, you can attribute it to some grand scheme to snag an MVP award for his quarterback (which would only serve to make him more expensive down the road) or you can chalk it up to the Harbaughs having a pretty broad streak of being assholes with zero chill.

I mean the simplest answer still seems to be "He's a Harbaugh" and move along.

[staylor26]

He is a Harbaugh.

I mean, you can attribute it to some grand scheme to snag an MVP award for his quarterback (which would only serve to make him more expensive down the road) or you can chalk it up to the Harbaughs having a pretty broad streak of being assholes with zero chill.

I mean the simplest answer still seems to be "He's a Harbaugh" and move along.

Fair enough. I wasn’t necessarily saying it was, just that it was so bizarre I considered it a legitimate possibility.

[DJ's left nut]

246 of those yards came after they were down 28-6.

Yeah, he said "I wouldn't put that loss on Lamar" but man...I'm not sure who else to put it on.

That was a 1 score game at half and the Ravens started out with the ball. And then 3 drives ended with a play he made or didn't make in that quarter before he went racking up garbage time stats in the 4th.

Even a mediocre 3rd quarter and the Ravens are still firmly in that game in the 4th. But Jackson was just lousy in that 3rd quarter and by the time he started throwing up yards in the 4th, the game was over.

I'm really not sure who else to blame if it isn't the guy who failed on 4th down, took a terrible strip/sack and then threw a pick in the span of 3 drives when the game went from 14-6 to 28-6 heading into the 4th.

Nevermind the fact that an interception and ANOTHER failed 4th down conversion in the 1st quarter is what led to the Titans initial 14-0 lead.

All 4 Titans touchdowns immediately followed failed 4th down conversion attempts by Jackson or turnovers from him. In what world can you absolve him of blame?

[The Franchise]

The Ravens are going to have a tough time as soon as they pay Jackson. They’d better hope that the rest of the league continues to be morons and lets good players fall in the draft.

[ThaVirus]

Did you watch the Ravens on TNF against the Jets?

Dude went for it on 4th down up 20+ points late in the game in his own territory. I’ve never seen anything like it. They kept throwing it after that too.

I’m not saying it was for sure so Lamar could get MVP, but it was the most logical conclusion I could come to for something I’ve honestly never seen before in an NFL game.

It really just wouldn't make any sense for a coach to push for an individual player's accolades.

They made a big fuss about Harbaugh and his new analytics team so maybe they just figured going for it was the best decision. Maybe he's just a tool and knew it was the Jets (wouldn't matter either way) so he said fuck it. I feel like Belichick's done shit like that in the past as well.

[Redbled]

In Pats MVP year it often crossed my mind that Andy was padding his stats. Tons of 1st down throws from the 2. I don’t see that thinking as being far fetched. And players will love him for it.

[RunKC]

I actually love Harbaugh’s mindset of going for it on 4th down in those short yardage situations. Andy did that before, but I believe he hasn’t done that as often ever since Hunt was booted.

With CEH I think Andy will start being even more aggressive bc he now has that running threat again.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

In Pats MVP year it often crossed my mind that Andy was padding his stats. Tons of 1st down throws from the 2. I don’t see that thinking as being far fetched. And players will love him for it.

I'm not sure about padding the stats as I think back through his MVP season, BUT it seems like to me going into the last game of the year against the Raiders that there was a very concerted effort to make sure he hit 50 TD's and 5000 yards, which I kind of get. Those are historic milestones that you may only get a shot at once in your career.

But I'm not honestly sure how much of that was 'stat padding' and how much of that was either the play breaking down and Pat simply making a play (see long TD pass to DRob for #50) and the other part being Andy simply using the most efficient means (passing) to move the ball for that team down the field.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

Could be guilt. Jackson is being used up like a running back. Payday may be so long time

[Rain Man]

I actually love Harbaugh’s mindset of going for it on 4th down in those short yardage situations. Andy did that before, but I believe he hasn’t done that as often ever since Hunt was booted.

With CEH I think Andy will start being even more aggressive bc he now has that running threat again.

I don't anticipate us having a 4th down this year.

[tredadda]

Yeah - that one seems a bridge too far.

This ain't Madden - scoring more TDs won't get Jackson a boost in his overall ratings or anything.

Bottom line is that the Ravens scored a lot - period. Across the NFL there were 1274 offensive TDs scored, 797 of them through the air. So league-wide, 63% of all offensive TDs were scored via touchdown pass.

The Ravens scored 37 of their 58 through the air - 64% That's less than the Chiefs at 30 of 46 (65%).

Gonna say the 'Harbaugh was pumping Jackson's stats" thing just...isn't a thing. They were pretty much league average in throwing TDs.

I guess my thing is that why would they run, run, and run some more and then suddenly throw near the goal line? I am not a conspiracy guy, but that seems odd.

[ThaVirus]

I remember reading a conspiracy theory about the whole goal-line INT game-loser in the Seahawks vs Patriots Super Bowl. Basically they said that Carroll wanted to prove to the team that Russ was 'the guy' by electing to have him throw the game-winner as opposed to relying on the run game like they'd been known to.

Now that would make a bit of sense given the murmurs about some of the players not buying in to Russ and all that, but we've heard no such thing coming out of the Ravens locker room. They seem to be all in on Jackson.

I guess maaaaybe I could see it being the case if Harbaugh thought LJ couldn't handle criticism. By having him throw for a lot of TDs as opposed to running them in, he'd give his QB a bit more support against the "He'S a RuNnInG bAcK" crowd..

Idk. I think that's all a stretch though.

[DJ's left nut]

I remember reading a conspiracy theory about the whole goal-line INT game-loser in the Seahawks vs Patriots Super Bowl. Basically they said that Carroll wanted to prove to the team that Russ was 'the guy' by electing to have him throw the game-winner as opposed to relying on the run game like they'd been known to.

Now that would make a bit of sense given the murmurs about some of the players not buying in to Russ and all that, but we've heard no such thing coming out of the Ravens locker room. They seem to be all in on Jackson.

I guess maaaaybe I could see it being the case if Harbaugh thought LJ couldn't handle criticism. By having him throw for a lot of TDs as opposed to running them in, he'd give his QB a bit more support against the "He'S a RuNnInG bAcK" crowd..

Idk. I think that's all a stretch though.

By the same token, if that was your plan, wouldn't you also be more prone to throwing between the 20s? That's when teams are more likely to just give you some easy pitch/catch plays for some cheap yardage.

Didn't see any of that.

I think ultimately he just knows some coach shit to support the idea that their best way to score inside the 20 was to have him throwing the ball (going against type, so to speak) in an effort to wrong-foot teams.

Hard to argue with the results - the Ravens scored a bunch.

[Demonpenz]

Media has to have rivals or it won't have it's next 30 for 30