CNN reporting Sarin weapon found in Iraq

[cdcox]

Libbies start spinning this now.

[Donger]

I'll start: Yeah? So what? How much was found?

[Duck Dog]

Libbies start spinning this now.


Found, hell. It exploded.

Let's see how much air play this gets on lib TV.

[Eleazar]

> BREAKING NEWS Coalition forces in convoy find sarin nerve agent in artillery round rigged as improvised explosive device, U.S. military says. Details soon.

[Mr. Kotter]

Libbies start spinning this now.

No, duh? Wow....now there's a surprise. ROFL

[Donger]

Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

19 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq (news - web sites). "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

[ZepSinger]

Umm.... hello, libbies? Any of you here?

I thought not.

[Duck Dog]

Umm.... hello, libbies? Any of you here?

I thought not.


Just like their lib TV anchors, they will say it is not enough of it to be a real threat.

Though this is damaging to their cause (libs/terrorists), they will down play it.

Alah Akbar! You f^cking infidels!

[Eleazar]

Interesting that it was an artillery shell designed to carry chemical agents. I believe that can go to the end of the long list of things happening in Iraq that were not permitted by the ceasefire agreement.

Good to hear no one was hurt.

[TEX]

Wow, right on "que." What a shocker... :hmmm:

[BigMeatballDave]

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.According to Meme, this is a laughing matter.
:shake:

[Donger]

Umm.... hello, libbies? Any of you here?

I thought not.

Mememe will be along shortly. She's already raised the conspiracy theory: "Not a finding them is a joke rather the timing is funny. I predicted (back in Feb. or sometime before the April insurgency) that the WH would need to find either OBL or WMD by the end of May if they had any hopes of salvaging their credibility in Iraq.

The fact that they have found one will be held up as 'proof' of WMD."

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

You cons have it so wrong. I'd be glad as hell if we actually find out the reasons Bush sent us to Iraq end up being real. I'd love to be able to trust our president. I don't dislike him because he's a republican, I dislike him because he's been a failure leading our country. If that turns around then bravo. It'd be great to finally feel like we might know what we're doing over there.

Maybe it's you cons that just blindly hate...

[Michael Michigan]

Mememe will be along shortly. She's already raised the conspiracy theory: "Not a finding them is a joke rather the timing is funny. I predicted (back in Feb. or sometime before the April insurgency) that the WH would need to find either OBL or WMD by the end of May if they had any hopes of salvaging their credibility in Iraq.

The fact that they have found one will be held up as 'proof' of WMD."

Maybe she had another vision.

[ZepSinger]

Interesting that it was an artillery shell designed to carry chemical agents. I believe that can go to the end of the long list of things happening in Iraq that were not permitted by the ceasefire agreement.

Good to hear no one was hurt.

I understand it was a type of artillery round that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War.

But this would mean Saddam lied! Say it ain't so!! :eek:

[Duck Dog]

You cons have it so wrong. I'd be glad as hell if we actually find out the reasons Bush sent us to Iraq end up being real. I'd love to be able to trust our president. I don't dislike him because he's a republican, I dislike him because he's been a failure leading our country. If that turns around then bravo. It'd be great to finally feel like we might know what we're doing over there.

Maybe it's you cons that just blindly hate...


I don't hate you, you're my favorite turd.

[Michael Michigan]

I don't hate you, you're my favorite turd.

I think that's "I wouldn't sh!t you--you're my favorite turd."

[memyselfI]

Wow, right on "que." What a shocker... :hmmm:

ROFL Exactly.

[BigMeatballDave]

You cons have it so wrong. I'd be glad as hell if we actually find out the reasons Bush sent us to Iraq end up being real. I'd love to be able to trust our president. I don't dislike him because he's a republican, I dislike him because he's been a failure leading our country. If that turns around then bravo. It'd be great to finally feel like we might know what we're doing over there.

Maybe it's you cons that just blindly hate...But its ok for meme to blindly make jokes about deadly nerve gas.

[ptlyon]

I don't dislike him because he's a republican, I dislike him because he's been a failure leading our country.

What planet are you from?

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Just like their lib TV anchors, they will say it is not enough of it to be a real threat.

Though this is damaging to their cause (libs/terrorists), they will down play it.

Alah Akbar! You f^cking infidels!
Wow... I'd be emabarrased to be you. You actually think libs and terrorists have the same agenda? Libs want freedom and peace as much as you. They just have different idea's on how to achieve it. That's doesn't make them wrong... it makes them different. If you really feel this way I'm ashamed to share a country with you.

[Braincase]

So, those that oppose US occupation in Iraq now have WoMD? Damn, we better invade and find those things before it's too late.... oh, nevermind.

[Soupnazi]

Maybe this will actually get some media airtime this time. I was very interested as to why the talking heads didn't seem too engaged with the al-queda truckload of VX and sarin that was stopped crossing into Jordan from Syria recently.

Not once did I hear the "mainstream" media discussing where they might have come from, given that Syria doesn't have the ability to manufacture either of those agents.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

But its ok for meme to blindly make jokes about deadly nerve gas.
I read nothing by and said nothing about Denise. I was speaking for myself. Us dems and libs have that ability.

[Donger]

ROFL Exactly.

I'll ask you again: Do you believe that this shell was a plant by the administration?

[Duck Dog]

Wow... I'd be emabarrased to be you. You actually think libs and terrorists have the same agenda? Libs want freedom and peace as much as you. They just have different idea's on how to achieve it. That's doesn't make them wrong... it makes them different. If you really feel this way I'm ashamed to share a country with you.


Yeah, like hugging and holding hands with the MF'ers that blow us up. Great ideas!

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I don't hate you, you're my favorite turd.
Your open-mindedness is outdone only by your class.

[memyselfI]

I'll ask you again: Do you believe that this shell was a plant by the administration?

I need more information before I make that decision. I will tell you that I trust David Kay more than I do the WH so we'll see how he goes about assessing the situation.

[Eleazar]

(Reuters) - AT&T and Verizon reported record spikes in telephone network activity Monday morning as fax machines at Democratic National Comittee headquarters kicked into emergency mode, browning out power to several city blocks.

Fax-banks in Washington, New York City, and Berkley reached doomsday levels of throughput as the Democratic slant on the minutes-old discovery of Sarin gas and chemical weapons delivery shells in Iraq was faxed out to party operatives nationwide.

The news sent shockwaves through the news media as most outlets scrambled to go to commercial long enough for news anchors to be reprogrammed.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Yeah, like hugging and holding hands with the MF'ers that blow us up. Great ideas!
Well at least you don't just make shit up to promote your hatred.

[BigMeatballDave]

Maybe this will actually get some media airtime this time. I was very interested as to why the talking heads didn't seem too engaged with the al-queda truckload of VX and sarin that was stopped crossing into Jordan from Syria recently.

Not once did I hear the "mainstream" media discussing where they might have come from, given that Syria doesn't have the ability to manufacture either of those agents.Whoa! Where did you hear this? May I have a link, please?

[Donger]

You cons have it so wrong. I'd be glad as hell if we actually find out the reasons Bush sent us to Iraq end up being real.

Well, the main reason for going into Iraq was that Hussein had WMDs.

A WMD has been "found."

Isn't that "real?"

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Well, the main reason for going into Iraq was that Hussein had WMDs.

A WMD has been "found."

Isn't that "real?"
Well lets find out shall we...? The only thing I've heard about it is right here on this thread.

[MadProphetMargin]

Libbies start spinning this now.

Okay. Let's begin:

1. What convenient timing. Odd, we have had no success fnding rigged artillery shells before, but now we just HAPPEN to find one, with Sarin, no less, right when the administration needs a distraction.

2. How much Sarin? "tens of thousands of liters"? Heh. Didn't think so.

3. Has the Sarin actually been CONFIRMED yet? I seem to remember hearing a lot of these tales in the months following the invasion, and within 24-48 hours, they had been debunked.

4. Has the Sarin been proven to be Iraqi in origin? Could just as easily have been hauled in from Syria. Shelf life of Sarin gas in an uncontrolled environment is ~ 2 months.

[MadProphetMargin]

Well, the main reason for going into Iraq was that Hussein had WMDs.

A WMD has been "found."

Isn't that "real?"

We found the "tens of thousands of liters" that Bush was jabbering about?

[memyselfI]

Well, the main reason for going into Iraq was that Hussein had WMDs.

A WMD has been "found."

Isn't that "real?"

WEAPONS.

You will convince NO ONE in the world, except the RW Cons that the mission was successful based on the status quo and finding ONE weapon of MD.

The burden of proof is on the US finding the 'stockpiles' that the US insisted was there.

[BigMeatballDave]

I need more information before I make that decision. I will tell you that I trust David Kay more than I do the WH so we'll see how he goes about assessing the situation.If the administration were to plant something, don't you think they would plant a whole arsenal?
:spock:

[ptlyon]

Okay. Let's begin:

1. What convenient timing. Odd, we have had no success fnding rigged artillery shells before, but now we just HAPPEN to find one, with Sarin, no less, right when the administration needs a distraction.

2. How much Sarin? "tens of thousands of liters"? Heh. Didn't think so.

3. Has the Sarin actually been CONFIRMED yet? I seem to remember hearing a lot of these tales in the months following the invasion, and within 24-48 hours, they had been debunked.

Don't forget #4, "The Sarin was not in Iraq prior to US Occupation"

[MadProphetMargin]

Don't forget #4, "The Sarin was not in Iraq prior to US Occupation"

I editted.

Big problem with the shelf-life, Kemosabe.

[ptlyon]

4. Has the Sarin been proven to be Iraqi in origin? Could just as easily have been hauled in from Syria. Shelf life of Sarin gas in an uncontrolled environment is ~ 2 months.

Wow, am I good or what

[OldTownChief]

Wow... I'd be emabarrased to be you. You actually think libs and terrorists have the same agenda?

Don't you?


If you really feel this way I'm ashamed to share a country with you.

Than why are you, Shan Penn, and the Dixey Chicks still here?

[MadProphetMargin]

If the administration were to plant something, don't you think they would plant a whole arsenal?
:spock:

Too easy to get caught.

[MadProphetMargin]

Don't you?




Heyyyyyyy!

You're an idiot.

[MadProphetMargin]

Wow, am I good or what

Facts is facts.

2 month shelf life in that environment.

There's really only three places this could have come from:

1. Syria
2. Iran
3. USA

[ptlyon]

I editted.

Big problem with the shelf-life, Kemosabe.


Mmmmm Kay

[memyselfI]

If the administration were to plant something, don't you think they would plant a whole arsenal?
:spock:

Possibly but I think that would be harder to keep quiet especially in an atmosphere where the military, Pentagon, SD, CIA, and WH are all suspect and pointing fingers at each other.

[ptlyon]

Facts is facts.

2 month shelf life in that environment.

There's really only three places this could have come from:

1. Syria
2. Iran
3. USA

Ya Ya - need further info than your brilliance

[MadProphetMargin]

Ya Ya - need further info than your brilliance

Then I suggest you hit google.

[Mr. Kotter]

Facts is facts.

2 month shelf life in that environment.



Er...'cuse me for asking, LINK?

Or do you have a PhD in Chemistry? :rolleyes:

[beavis]

Facts is facts.

2 month shelf life in that environment.

There's really only three places this could have come from:

1. Syria
2. Iran
3. USA
Blame America first!

It's been my theory all along that a lot of this stuff got shipped to Syria before the war even started. I'll caveat that by saying I have no hard proof, just a hunch.

[MadProphetMargin]

I'll ask you again: Do you believe that this shell was a plant by the administration?

Yes.

[Brock]

I predicted long ago that if anything were found, the libs would immediately claim it was planted.

Sadly, I was right.

[Michael Michigan]

Then I suggest you hit google asshole.

Let the name calling begin.

[MadProphetMargin]

Blame America first!



Oddly enough, I listed them 3rd.

[BigMeatballDave]

WEAPONS.

You will convince NO ONE except the RW Cons in this country that the mission was successful based on the status quo and finding ONE weapon of MD.

The burden of proof is on the US finding the 'stockpiles' that the US insisted was there.At this point it won't matter what we find. You won't believe it to be authentic, anyway.

He HAD WMDs. This is a fact. I'd like to know where the hell they went, also. Hell, even Clinton took a little time away from his Oval office knob jobs and saw that SH possessed WMDs. He also knew SH needed to be removed.

[Donger]

Yes.

Based on what?

Oh, also, are you saying that Sarin inside an artillery shell is only effective for two months?

[MadProphetMargin]

Let the name calling begin.


Hey, I didn't start it.

But don't let intellectual honesty stand in your way.

[Michael Michigan]

Yes.

Link?

[Rausch]

Then I suggest you hit google.
ROFL

[MadProphetMargin]

Link?

Link to my belief?

Are you this stupid?

Is anyone?

[Michael Michigan]

Hey, I didn't start it.

But don't let intellectual honesty stand in your way.

Who called you an asshole?

Link?

[beavis]

Oddly enough, I listed them 3rd.
How telling. :shake:

[Ugly Duck]

Heck, I'm a Lib but I ain't got no reason to "spin" a shell with sarin on it. My support of the invasion was not predicated on any of the hype about about stockpiles of WOMD on drones set to buzz over to New York and kill us. I just figured Iraq would be a better place to attract AQ to than Atlanta or San Francisco. It was kinda fun watching the Bush admin squirm about not finding what they knew was there and where it was. But it ain't no fun watching our boyz die in Iraq, which far overshadows my partisan zeal to see the Bush admin booted out of office. I guess my only spin is to say this incident won't change my vote, thats about all I can come up with.

[MadProphetMargin]

Based on what?

Oh, also, are you saying that Sarin inside an artillery shell is only effective for two months?

1. Based on the timing, and the circumstances under which it was found.

2. Depends on how it was stored.

[Rausch]

Yes.

Did they plant the terrorists too?...

[OldTownChief]

Let the name calling begin.

Glad you caught that before he edited it out. Just a sign of a weak mind and a weak argument.

[Mr. Kotter]

Let the name calling begin.

On second thought he edited, eh? :shake:

[Amnorix]

Just like their lib TV anchors, they will say it is not enough of it to be a real threat.

Though this is damaging to their cause (libs/terrorists), they will down play it.

Alah Akbar! You f^cking infidels!

Unbelievable. Liberals and terrorists don't share the same cause, and never did. Kindly check your stupidity at the door. :shake:

[Loki]

sarin is one of the more nasty nasties. but still not as nasty as persistent blister agents (CX)... :shudder:

nope. no WMD in iraq. nope. never were and never will be..... nope.
MORONS!! :rolleyes: :shake:

as i have been saying for months, the search for WMD isn't over. where there is one, there are more. only a matter of time before we find more, or more are used against our soldiers.

bank on it.

[Hel'n]

Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

19 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq (news - web sites). "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

Quit attacking libbies... there is one round... and I will gladly say "Atta girl!" about finding WMD... Now find the source...

- Was it from an existing stockpile?
- Did it come from somewhere else outside of Iraq?
- Exactly what were the origins?

Let's get the answers and I'll gladly back you up...

[Fat Elvis]

Maybe this will actually get some media airtime this time. I was very interested as to why the talking heads didn't seem too engaged with the al-queda truckload of VX and sarin that was stopped crossing into Jordan from Syria recently.

Not once did I hear the "mainstream" media discussing where they might have come from, given that Syria doesn't have the ability to manufacture either of those agents.


Soupnazi-

Do you post over on Sharkey's forums?

[memyselfI]

At this point it won't matter what we find. You won't believe it to be authentic, anyway.

He HAD WMDs. This is a fact. I'd like to know where the hell they went, also. Hell, even Clinton took a little time away from his Oval office knob jobs and saw that SH possessed WMDs. He also knew SH needed to be removed.


DUHbya HAD a drinking problem. That does not mean he still is does...

though that might explain some of his stutterin and stammerin. :hmmm:

[beavis]

1. Based on the timing, and the circumstances under which it was found.

2. Depends on how it was stored.
But wait, I thought invasion was based on circumstatial intelligence? So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

[Donger]

You know, I really am stunned that some folks actually believe that the administration planted this thing.

I really am.

[ZepSinger]

At this point it won't matter what we find. You won't believe it to be authentic, anyway.

Dang! You beat me to it.
I was gonna go out on a limb and predict that absolutely NO amount of evidence, no matter how compelling or convincing, will ever convince certain individuals on this board that WMDs were/are present in IRAQ(or that Bush isn't an evil overlord responsible for every atrocity known to man).

IMO

[MadProphetMargin]

But wait, I thought invasion was based on circumstatial intelligence? So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Um, what the hell are you talking about?

[Michael Michigan]

Link to my belief?

Are you this stupid?

Is anyone?

Look in the mirror.

You are the one who always asks for links.

I'm still shocked you knew google existed.

[the Talking Can]

spin what?

this was what Bush was talking about? man, you guys are desparate...

[Radar Chief]

Shelf life of Sarin gas in an uncontrolled environment is ~ 2 months.

Um, not quite.

Shelf Life of Iraq's Chemical and Biological Weapons
FACTS ABOUT IRAQ: The Shelf Life Of Iraq’s Chemical And Biological Weapons
Iraq had a well established and proven chemical and biological weapons programme and retains capability to use and deploy such weapons as a "break out".
Iraq's ability to retain a significant proportion of these weapons and manufacturing capabilities and to increase these once UNSCOM inspections ceased is known as “breakout” capability
Chemical weapons, particularly the skin blister agent "mustard", have a notoriously long shelf life and indeed such shells derived from the first world war continue to be discovered and require destruction and disposal. US and Russian weapons currently being destroyed by OPCW that were manufactured years ago and are predicted to have a residual shelf life of at least a further ten years.
In Iraq shells containing mustard were discovered in August 1997, which were manufactured in the late 1980s, and were found to contain mustard of 98% purity.
Nerve agents have a considerably shorter "shelf life" although certain "stabilisers" will prolong their storage and Iraq has not provided details to provide a technical assessment of their durability.
Iraq has a break out capability and as such the shelf life is irrelevant.
Iraq has the expertise, knowledge and experience to produce militarily significant quantities of VX, sarin, tabun and mustard of exceptional purity.

Iraq deployed three biological agents in weapons in 1991.
· Anthrax spores have a half life of decades,
· Aflatoxin at least ten years.
· Smallpox, a suspected agent within its arsenal, has a shelf life of decades.
Iraq has yet to provide a credible account of its biological weapons programme nor has it demonstrated that the programme has been terminated.
As with chemical weapons Iraq has the knowledge and expertise to produce weapons at short notice.
"The resumption of arms control in Iraq is urgently required. But, it would have to be serious. If Iraq again refused to cooperage, then to pursue compromised inspections would be dangerous"
Richard Butler, Senate Committee, 31 July 2002

http://www.britainusa.com/iraq/other_show.asp?Sarticletype=2&other_ID=493

[MadProphetMargin]

You know, I really am stunned that some folks actually believe that the administration planted this thing.

I really am.

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

[Donger]

Quit attacking libbies... there is one round... and I will gladly say "Atta girl!" about finding WMD... Now find the source...

- Was it from an existing stockpile?
- Did it come from somewhere else outside of Iraq?
- Exactly what were the origins?

Let's get the answers and I'll gladly back you up...

Here's what Kimmitt said:

"Kimmitt said the artillery round was of an old style that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War. He said it was designed to explode after being fired from an artillery piece and that its effectiveness as an improvised explosive device was "limited."

Kimmitt did not say where the weapon was found nor did he say if it originated in Iraq.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Don't you?




Than why are you, Shan Penn, and the Dixey Chicks still here?
To save the country from the type of knee-jerk, close-minded, bomb- them-all-ask-questions-later mentality that people like you would have us doing. Your really just promoting communism. One set of rules, one thought process for all of humanity. The real world doesn't run that way. People like you truly fighten me.

Most humans evolved since the damn of time. What happened to you?

[Soupnazi]

Soupnazi-

Do you post over on Sharkey's forums?

No. Sharkey's forums? I can't say that I know what you're talking about. Could you explain?

[beavis]

Um, what the hell are you talking about?
Selective memory now huh?

[Donger]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

Well, you know what they say about opinions.

[BigMeatballDave]

Unbelievable. Liberals and terrorists don't share the same cause, and never did. Kindly check your stupidity at the door. :shake:No, but its no worse than meme making light of an incident to humor her/himself!

[beavis]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.
Yeah, they'll nuke an American city so their buddies can get to Iraqi oil and do avenge his father... :shake:

Get a ****ing life.

[Michael Michigan]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

Wow--you are willing to give up any credibility over a small amount of sarin?

[Rausch]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

http://paranoiafiles.com/images/tinfoil_hat.jpg

[OldTownChief]

sarin is one of the more nasty nasties. but still not as nasty as persistent blister agents (CX)... :shudder:

nope. no WMD in iraq. nope. never were and never will be..... nope.
MORONS!! :rolleyes: :shake:

as i have been saying for months, the search for WMD isn't over. where there is one, there are more. only a matter of time before we find more, or more are used against our soldiers.

bank on it.
How could you say such a thing? What are you some kind of Patriot that loves you country or what? No way that a man as sweet as Sadam would ever do such a thing. Don't you know that our leaders will bomb our own soldiers just to get four more years? Why do people like you base there opinions on fact rather than the views of or Hollywood heroes?

[BigMeatballDave]

Um, not quite.Hey, don't confuse them with facts!

[MadProphetMargin]

Um, not quite.

That shows the shelf life of mustard gas, not Sarin.

[Brock]

I must prophecy more often. (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=985302&highlight=planted#post985302)

[memyselfI]

Dang! You beat me to it.
I was gonna go out on a limb and predict that absolutely NO amount of evidence, no matter how compelling or convincing, will ever convince certain individuals on this board that WMDs were/are present in IRAQ(or that Bush isn't an evil overlord responsible for every atrocity known to man).

IMO


That is the fault of the administration. Colin Powell admitted some of the intel was faulty and has been incorrect this admission alone would cause the world (save for the RW Cons) to be skeptical about this adminstration and it's claims...

that is not even factoring in the abuse scandal, the civilian death toll, the cost of the war, Fallujah, their recent comment of accepting theocracy in Iraq, etc. Lots to be skeptical about.

[Abba-Dabba]

Um, not quite.

Sarin doesn't have a long shelf life. According to this.... the Iraqi's had problems with it's shelf life. Intelligence suggested it was trying to lengthen the shelf life. But no cleat cut proof they were able to....


http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960715/72569.htm
STABILITY OF IRAQ'S CHEMICAL WEAPONS STOCKPILE

IRAQ HAS A SIZEABLE CW STOCKPILE, AT LEAST SOME OF WHICH CAN SURVIVE

SEVERAL YEARS OF STORAGE.

IRAQ'S MUSTARD, THE CW AGENT MOST USED IN THE WAR WITH IRAN, IS

QUITE STABLE; MUCH OF IT SHOULD REMAIN EFFECTIVE FOR SOME TIME.

THE UNITARY FORM OF IRAQ'S SARIN - ITS PRINCIPAL NERVE AGENT - HAD

A RELATIVELY SHORT SHELF LIFE DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN.

THE IRAQIS HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS PROBLEM:

THEY HAVE TRIED TO INCREASE UNITARY SARIN SHELF LIFE BY IMPROVING

THE PURITY OF THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS AND REFINING PRODUCTION

PROCESSES.


THEY HAVE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BINARY NERVE AGENT ROUNDS FOR

ARTILLERY SHELLS AND BINARY MISSILE WARHEADS AS WELL.


CIA BELIEVES THAT BY NOW IRAQ HAS EITHER INCREASED THE SHELF LIFE OF

UNITARY SARIN OR PRODUCED LARGE QUANTITIES OF BINARY MUNITIONS.

PROBLEMS WITH SHELF LIFE

DURING THE WAR WITH IRAN, IRAQ USED LARGE

QUANTITIES OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST

IRANIAN GROUND FORCES. THE PRINCIPLE

AGENTS USED WERE THE BLISTER AGENT

MUSTARD AND THE NONPERSISTENT NERVE

AGENT SARIN. THE NONPERSISTENT NERVE

AGENT TABUN AND THE PERSISTENT NERVE

AGENT GF WERE ALSO USED.

DESPITE THE GENERAL SOPHISTICATION OF

IRAQ'S CW PRODUCTION INFRASTRUCTURE,

SOME OF IRAQ'S CHEMICAL AGENTS HAD A

SHORT SHELF LIFE, MOSTLY OWING TO IMPURITIES

IN THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS. CIA BELIEVES

THAT SOME SARIN HAD A SHELF LIFE OF ONLY A

FEW WEEKS.

[Lzen]

Link to my belief?

Are you this stupid?

Is anyone?

Apparently you are. :shake:

[MadProphetMargin]

Well, you know what they say about opinions.

Yep. That's why I stressed that it WAS opinion.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.
Dude, I'm generally on your side here but come on......

[BigMeatballDave]

DUHbya HAD a drinking problem. That does not mean he still is does...

though that might explain some of his stutterin and stammerin. :hmmm:And Willy smoked weed, what is your point?

[MadProphetMargin]

Sarin doesn't have a long shelf life. According to this.... the Iraqi's had problems with it's shelf life. Intelligence suggested it was trying to lengthen the shelf life. But no cleat cut proof they were able to....


http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960715/72569.htm

Thanks. I was pretty sure I had remembered that correctly.

[Eleazar]

This just illustrates again that there is no standard for WMD's that can be met.

Nothing could ever be produced that would get libs to concede that WMD's were there. Even if a football stadium full of uranium was found, there would be some excuse as to why it wasn't Saddams, how it had just been miracled into existence.

There is nothing in the world that could be produced that would get the left to concede that Saddam was working on or had these weapons. There's no point in even addressing it.

[Abba-Dabba]

I don't think it was planted. I however think that it may have come from somewhere else or was completely useless from age.

It was reported that Iraq did not put any marking on their chemical artiilery shells...di the shell have any markings on it would be my first question.

[Donger]

Yep. That's why I stressed that it WAS opinion.

I know. But most people have opinions based on some previous experience, precedent or facts.

Do you have any that leads you to your opinion?

[Rausch]

Dude, I'm generally on your side here but come on......

Get use to it. Most of the far left doesn't base their view of this administration on anything other than hate. They hate Bush, and hated him before 9/11 and before this war.

Why?

Because he isn't liberal. Period.

[MadProphetMargin]

This just illustrates again that there is no standard for WMD's that can be met.

Nothing could ever be produced that would get libs to concede that WMD's were there. Even if a football stadium full of uranium was found, there would be some excuse as to why it wasn't Saddams, how it had just been miracled into existence.

There is nothing in the world that could be produced that would get the left to concede that Saddam was working on or had these weapons. There's no point in even addressing it.


Oh, I don't know. Show me the "tens of thousands of liters" that the administration was jabbering about, and we'll talk.

[Mr. Kotter]

Um, not quite.

Thanks for the info....instead of just talkin' out of your anus, like some here... :rolleyes:

[BigMeatballDave]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.What a fuqtard!
:shake:

Yeah, maybe he'll start rounding up the Libs and fire up the ovens...

[Donger]

I don't think it was planted. I however think that it may have come from somewhere else or was completely useless from age.

It was reported that Iraq did not put any marking on their chemical artiilery shells...di the shell have any markings on it would be my first question.

FWIW.

"Kimmitt said the artillery round was of an old style that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War. He said it was designed to explode after being fired from an artillery piece and that its effectiveness as an improvised explosive device was "limited

[Radar Chief]

That shows the shelf life of mustard gas, not Sarin.

And what is Sarin?

Nerve agents have a considerably shorter "shelf life" although certain "stabilisers" will prolong their storage and Iraq has not provided details to provide a technical assessment of their durability.

[Mr. Kotter]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

And you libbies call ANYONE on the right, conservative "wackos".....

Wow. :shake:

[Abba-Dabba]

FWIW.

"Kimmitt said the artillery round was of an old style that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War. He said it was designed to explode after being fired from an artillery piece and that its effectiveness as an improvised explosive device was "limited


Well okay, there is one. Let's all hope we find more. :thumb:

[Eleazar]

Oh, I don't know. Show me the "tens of thousands of liters" that the administration was jabbering about, and we'll talk.

Right, we'd talk, and then you'd tell me it came from someplace else.

[Mr. Kotter]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.

And you libbies call ANYONE on the right, conservative "wackos".....

Wow. :shake:

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

This just illustrates again that there is no standard for WMD's that can be met.

Nothing could ever be produced that would get libs to concede that WMD's were there. Even if a football stadium full of uranium was found, there would be some excuse as to why it wasn't Saddams, how it had just been miracled into existence.

There is nothing in the world that could be produced that would get the left to concede that Saddam was working on or had these weapons. There's no point in even addressing it.
:BS:

[BigMeatballDave]

If sarin(or anything else for that matter)is in an air-tite container, would shelf-life even come into play?

[Hel'n]

And what is Sarin?

Sarin was a Vulcan... ;)

[memyselfI]

I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.


I don't put much beyond the administration either but I don't think they'd nuke one of our own cities...I know people who share your cynicism though.

[FringeNC]

You cons have it so wrong. I'd be glad as hell if we actually find ...

Ha ha. Yeah, we believe ya.

[manny]

Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

19 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, but there were no casualties, the U.S. military said Monday.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq (news - web sites). "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

Um, if a Japanese cult could manufacture Sarin, anybody could, including any small group in Iraq, so how do you guys KNOW this is a Saddam Hussein exclusive, and where are the facilities to manufacture this stuff on the scale that the US gov't claimed?

You're assuming several things, none of which have been shown to be a fact, much like previous claims (Niger uranium, 100,000 gallons of VX nerve gas, Iraq-Al Qaeda links, etc.) that turned out to either be false or without proof of the claim.

[OldTownChief]

Originally Posted by MadProphetMargin
I wouldn't put much beyond this administration.

In fact, I think if they thought it would help their cause, they'd nuke one of our own cities. Course, that's just my opinion.



Man you are one sic puppy, seek help.

[beavis]

Sarin was a Vulcan... ;)
Ok, I'll give you that one. ROFL

[FringeNC]

Wow--you are willing to give up any credibility over a small amount of sarin?

You can't go much lower than zero.

[OldTownChief]

I don't put much beyond the administration either but I don't think they'd nuke one of our own cities...I know people who share your cynicism though.

Yes but they all reside at the sanitarium and are not allowed to vote.

[BigMeatballDave]

Um, if a Japanese cult could manufacture Sarin, anybody could, including any small group in Iraq, so how do you guys KNOW this is a Saddam Hussein exclusive, and where are the facilities to manufacture this stuff on the scale that the US gov't claimed?

Yeah, thats it. Stick up for Saddam!
:shake:

[OldTownChief]

Wow--you are willing to give up any credibility over a small amount of sarin?


He had credibility? Imagine that!!

[Radar Chief]

Sarin was a Vulcan... ;)

Live long and prosper, Hel’n.

[mlyonsd]

I think you libs that are looking pretty foolish trying to find any reason sarin is not WMD should find another argument.

Here's one for ya,
Maybe our military planted the shell in hopes of stalling or reducing the impact of the prison scandal?

Just trying to help you out since some of you are looking quite silly.

[Amnorix]

We'll see where this leads in good time.

I note for the record that people that think the gubment planted this are pretty much fools. You need to carefully think about how MANY people would be involved in approving and setting up the scheme you suggest. Whaddya think -- all Bush has to do is call the "Cigarette Man" and POOF, there's a sarin loaded shell found in Iraq? :shake:

[Rausch]

Well okay, there is one. Let's all hope we find more. :thumb:

We just did...apparently there was mustard gas found as well (according to Fox News.)

[memyselfI]

Just trying to help you out since some of you are looking quite silly.

LOL, just read on another board that Rumsfeld was doing more than visiting troops when he visited. ROFL

[OldTownChief]

I think you libs that are looking pretty foolish trying to find any reason sarin is not WMD should find another argument.

Here's one for ya,
Maybe our military planted the shell in hopes of stalling or reducing the impact of the prison scandal?

Just trying to help you out since some of you are looking quite silly.

They already tried that and they still look quite silly:rolleyes:

[manny]

Yeah, thats it. Stick up for Saddam!
:shake:

Dave, instead of trying to slander me, why don't you try to respond to my question?

I'll discuss anything in the world with you, and respectfully, but I don't see you do much in the way of discussion.

[Donger]

We'll see where this leads in good time.

I note for the record that people that think the gubment planted this are pretty much fools. You need to carefully think about how MANY people would be involved in approving and setting up the scheme you suggest. Whaddya think -- all Bush has to do is call the "Cigarette Man" and POOF, there's a sarin loaded shell found in Iraq? :shake:

Bravo Amnorix.

[ptlyon]

LOL, just read on another board that Rumsfeld was doing more than visiting troops when he visited. ROFL

Oh that's where you get all of your information.

I understand now...

[mlyonsd]

LOL, just read on another board that Rumsfeld was doing more than visiting troops when he visited. ROFL

ROFL That explains it. I thought it was odd when his plane landed he reached into his suitcoat pocket and handed a little vial to Sanchez. At the time I just thought it was a Jack Daniels shooter from the plane ride over there.

[BigMeatballDave]

We just did...apparently there was mustard gas found as well (according to Fox News.)Doesn't matter. Bush planted it.
:rolleyes:

[Donger]

LOL, just read on another board that Rumsfeld was doing more than visiting troops when he visited. ROFL

You can find idiots all over the Internet. That doesn't mean that you should listen to them.

Hell, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to; that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Mr. Kotter]

Oh, I don't know. Show me the "tens of thousands of liters" that the administration was jabbering about, and we'll talk.

Yeah, your reply will be and "Bush and the military planted it there." :rolleyes:

:shake:

[Rausch]

Dave, instead of trying to slander me, why don't you try to respond to my question?

I'll discuss anything in the world with you, and respectfully, but I don't see you do much in the way of discussion.

Well, for starters, we know he did have the ability to produce it because:

A) we gave him that ability

B) He displayed that ability when he gassed his own people.

C) When he used them against Iranians.

Now, we know he COULD have made those amounts. Now that we have found these gasses we know he DID make them.

If he did make them, did weaponize them, and then DID turn them over to terrorists, DOES IT ****ING MATTER HOW MUCH? Terrorists have Saddam's weapons, THAT DOESN'T SHOW A LINK TO TERRORISM?

[beavis]

Bravo Amnorix.
He's a good man. :thumb:

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Ha ha. Yeah, we believe ya.
It must be sad to live in your black and white world.

[NewChief]

I'm a lib, but since the conflict began I've done nothing but hope that this would happen.

I'm glad to see that we've found evidence, and I hope this leads to us uncovering a substantial cache that can be linked to SH. It will help to justify this war.

[OldTownChief]

We'll see where this leads in good time.

I note for the record that people that think the gubment planted this are pretty much fools. You need to carefully think about how MANY people would be involved in approving and setting up the scheme you suggest. Whaddya think -- all Bush has to do is call the "Cigarette Man" and POOF, there's a sarin loaded shell found in Iraq? :shake:

Common!! That would be reasonable thinking, not the Hollywood fantasy mentality that the left is so known for.

[ptlyon]

God, I think that this thread is going faster than the thread on 9/11 when the planes crashed into the twin towers.

[beavis]

If he did make them, did weaponize them, and then DID turn them over to terrorists, DOES IT ****ING MATTER HOW MUCH? Terrorists have Saddam's weapons, THAT DOESN'T SHOW A LINK TO TERRORISM?
That's a really good point. It shouldn't matter if it was 10,000 liters or 1 liter. If he did it, he did it.

[Hel'n]

You can find idiots all over the Internet. That doesn't mean that you should listen to them.

Hell, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to; that doesn't make it a good idea.

Denise is referring to an article referenced on the site "CounterPunch"...

I think this is the one...

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs05172004.html

It has some interesting stuff in it... and enough quotes from the WH to make one wonder what the hell is really going on in their heads...

[memyselfI]

You can find idiots all over the Internet. That doesn't mean that you should listen to them.

Hell, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to; that doesn't make it a good idea.


I didn't post it because I believe that...I just thought it was a funny/ironic coincidence that someone pointed out. He was near the airport and the weapon was found near there.

I don't think he did it but the connection is amusing given all the other illegal and immoral things he's being accused of.

[Mr. Kotter]

We'll see where this leads in good time.

I note for the record that people that think the gubment planted this are pretty much fools. You need to carefully think about how MANY people would be involved in approving and setting up the scheme you suggest. Whaddya think -- all Bush has to do is call the "Cigarette Man" and POOF, there's a sarin loaded shell found in Iraq? :shake:

This is the kind of material that separates YOU from the likes of Burn@stake and even less "wacky, but nonetheless demented" folks like mememe and jAZ.... ;)

:thumb:

[memyselfI]

Denise is referring to an article referenced on the site "CounterPunch"...

I think this is the one...

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs05172004.html

It has some interesting stuff in it... and enough quotes from the WH to make one wonder what the hell is really going on in their heads...


No, I hadn't seen that yet. Actually I think someone was making a joke of it on the Yahoo boards that are connected to the story. But if there is actually an allegation...that is scary.

[oldandslow]

It looks like the shell was an old chemical shell from the Iran-Iraq war, and not an intentional chemical attack. I'm suprised the terrorist who modified the old shell didn't expose themselves when they were rigging it up as a roadside bomb.

[Rausch]

That's a really good point. It shouldn't matter if it was 10,000 liters or 1 liter. If he did it, he did it.

You aren't seeing what's important.

If we don't find the EXACT amounts GWB said were there, he lied, and THAT is what's important. Pointing out a lie by the POTUS.

Not terrorism, not WOMD in countires that shouldn't have them, not making America safe.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm a lib, but since the conflict began I've done nothing but hope that this would happen.

I'm glad to see that we've found evidence, and I hope this leads to us uncovering a substantial cache that can be linked to SH. It will help to justify this war.This is all I want. Same as most people...I want to find WMDs. I want a reason to justify it as well.

[memyselfI]

You aren't seeing what's important.

If we don't find the EXACT amounts GWB said were there, he lied, and THAT is what's important. Pointing out a lie by the POTUS.

Not terrorism, not WOMD in countires that shouldn't have them, not making America safe.


Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.

Let's apply the same 'logic' here that the WH and military are trying to apply to the abuse scandal...

in that one group of sadistic abusing people do NOT imply or indicate more abusers/abuse exists and so therefore the BOD must be applied to the entire situation and belief that no more exists.

But because we've found ONE WMD that MUST mean that more WEAPONS of MD exist???


Nice double standard there.

[Donger]

Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.

Again, so, what quantity would you consider to be acceptable "proof" that Hussein did possess WMDs?

[BigMeatballDave]

Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.Wow! You just don't phuqin get it, do you. :rolleyes:
:shake:

[OldTownChief]

Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.

Let's apply the same 'logic' here that the WH and military are trying to apply to the abuse scandal...

in that one group of sadistic abusing people do NOT imply or indicate more abusers/abuse exists and so therefore the BOD must be applied to the entire situation and belief that no more exists.

But because we've found ONE WMD that MUST mean that more WEAPONS of MD exist???


Nice double standard there.

Typ. far left tunnel vision to see it this way.

[memyselfI]

Again, so, what quantity would you consider to be acceptable "proof" that Hussein did possess WMDs?

At least one STOCKPILE in at least two different parts of the country preferably where David Kay did not already search. I think that looks more legit than if they appear in an area he did search and they 'missed' them.

[Hel'n]

Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.

Let's apply the same 'logic' here that the WH and military are trying to apply to the abuse scandal...

in that one group of sadistic abusing people do NOT imply or indicate more abusers/abuse exists and so therefore the BOD must be applied to the entire situation and belief that no more exists.

But because we've found ONE WMD that MUST mean that more WEAPONS of MD exist???


Nice double standard there.

Excellent analogy... Where there's smoke there's fire...

[ChiTown]

Again, so, what quantity would you consider to be acceptable "proof" that Hussein did possess WMDs?

This is a silly debate.

One is too many if there were sanctions against Iraq. What it suggests is that they were a rogue government based on deception, killing and hatred. Their hatred was pointed towards the US, and that (along with their WMD's) justifies our proactive stance. I'm sure had we waited until they (Iraqis) used their WMD against their own people (again) or against US targets, the liberals would have swung their whiffle ball bats at that as well, asking "why didn't we do something earlier".

IMO, STRIKE 3, you're out.......

[Loki]

Wow... I'd be emabarrased to be you. You actually think libs and terrorists have the same agenda? Libs want freedom and peace as much as you. They just have different idea's on how to achieve it. That's doesn't make them wrong... it makes them different. If you really feel this way I'm ashamed to share a country with you.

terrorists have a concept of 'freedom' and 'peace' also. it's called making sure we're (westerners) all dead.

as far as grouping libs in with terrorists, i can somewhat understand the statement (though don't necessarily agree with it). some of the more outspoken liberals on this board keep trying to ram 'understanding' and 'compassion' for the ragheads down our throats. we're the big bad USA right? i don't buy it. it's pure bullsh*t as 30+ years of attacks on our civilians, military, embassies and domestic targets have pretty much solidified my support for this war and making sure it's FINISHED by any means necessary.

what makes me ashamed is that a vast majority of the people still believe that there are no WMD in iraq because the media has jumped the gun and says so. too many of you read the headlines as set in stone and don't stick around for the main story (to unfold). how many recent media stories have contradict themslves?
THEY AREN'T DONE SEARCHING FOR WMD AND HAVE SAID SO SEVERAL TIMES! (think you could hide something really well in a nation the size of california and 12 years to do it?) i don't ever recall anyone from the media being placed on a weapons inspection team, and the p*ssy a$$ed UN pulled out long ago to hide from their 100 BILLION dollar food for oil scam...

y'all put up such a big stink about things needing to be deemed "legal" by the UN. the UN is corrupt, elitist, anti-US, anti-UK and obsolete. has been since it started. did the UN approve all the terrorist attacks on US interests? were those actions legal? or are the actions that are STILL going on in kosovo/bosnia considered legal? were all the UN/US troop movements that were purposly leaked to communist nations by the UN during the korean and vietnam wars legal? (gotta make sure the communist nations have a square vote... heh heh.)

NOT.

libs and conservatives aside for a second as there are OBVIOUSLY two differing ideologies that will never agree. let's work with the common ground: nationalism. we're all American and damn proud of it yes? here's the question. we're in a war that could last a very long time. how do we fight and win this war NOW so that our children and grandchildren aren't fighting it 40 yrs from now? and what can YOU do to make it happen? our grandfathers did their part, our fathers did their part, now it's OUR turn to keep freedom alive for our children and subsequent generations of Americans. realize now that this has NOTHING to do with politics. our soldiers and our support of our soldiers win wars, not politicians. (i can't WAIT for this election to be OVER. we have countrymen fighting halfway around the world and this finger pointing/mud slinging BULLSH*T here in the states is taking precedence. something SERIOUSLY WRONG with that)

[Donger]

At least one STOCKPILE in at least two different parts of the country preferably where David Kay did not already search. I think that looks more legit than if they appear in an area he did search and they 'missed' them.

Define "stockpile."

[manny]

ROFL That explains it. I thought it was odd when his plane landed he reached into his suitcoat pocket and handed a little vial to Sanchez. At the time I just thought it was a Jack Daniels shooter from the plane ride over there.


Yes, there was never a Watergate, never a fake attack at Tonkin Bay, the US never tested syphilis on the airmen at Tuskegee, the US was never involved in overthrowing the government in Iran, or Guatemala, or Chile, there was never a COINTELPRO, nobody was EVER framed up on "evidence" manufactured as such, no one was ever "railroaded" in a court or in public opinion etc., etc. Conspiracies DO exist, Cover-ups DO exist, phony events ARE staged. Ask Prophet for some evidence, but don't dismiss these things out-of-hand, because in the real world there ARE conspiracies.

Having said that, I don't see this as evidence of a "plant" simply because this "find" is so small, is feasibly a product of a recent process or may just be residue from a shell emptied and left over from Desert Storm and unknowingly used by the resistance in Iraq. Show me the "infrastructure" that created the Sarin, show me a large quantity, show me more facts and we can reasonably proceed, but so far it's not much to go on to make sweeping claims either way.

[Rausch]

I'm a lib, but since the conflict began I've done nothing but hope that this would happen.

I'm glad to see that we've found evidence, and I hope this leads to us uncovering a substantial cache that can be linked to SH. It will help to justify this war.

The war has already been justified.

The Bush doctorine states that we will come after terrorists, and those who aid and support them.

1) Saddam wrote checks to terrorists' families in Syria and Israel.

2) Saddam did not fulfill his end of a cease fire signed after the FIRST gulf war that ended hostilities.

3) He tried to assasinate the POTUS.

4) He is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

5) He allowed the training of terrorists on his military bases.

6) His own people wanted him gone.

7) This war is a part of the bigger WOT. In case anyone has failed to notice we're fighting TERRORISTS in Iraq. We have stated that we will root out terror WHEREVER it is. Terrorists are in Iraq.

[memyselfI]

Define "stockpile."

Hundreds.

[BigMeatballDave]

Well it's good to know that the world is safer now that the US has found ONE WMD. Forget the stockpiles that were promised. We can all breathe easier (no pun intended) because we found ONE.

Let's apply the same 'logic' here that the WH and military are trying to apply to the abuse scandal...

in that one group of sadistic abusing people do NOT imply or indicate more abusers/abuse exists and so therefore the BOD must be applied to the entire situation and belief that no more exists.

But because we've found ONE WMD that MUST mean that more WEAPONS of MD exist???


Nice double standard there.Congrats! With this analogy, you have reduced yourself to the lowest form of human scum on this board!
I shall kindly ask you to phuq off!
4321

[Calcountry]

What planet are you from?
:) :) The Chiefsplanet, I'm a happy planeteer. :) :)

[MrBlond]

The war has already been justified.

The Bush doctorine states that we will come after terrorists, and those who aid and support them.

1) Saddam wrote checks to terrorists' families in Syria and Israel.

2) Saddam did not fulfill his end of a cease fire signed after the FIRST gulf war that ended hostilities.

3) He tried to assasinate the POTUS.

4) He is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

5) He allowed the training of terrorists on his military bases.

6) His own people wanted him gone.

7) This war is a part of the bigger WOT. In case anyone has failed to notice we're fighting TERRORISTS in Iraq. We have stated that we will root out terror WHEREVER it is. Terrorists are in Iraq.

Excellent.

[Lzen]

The round was an old `binary-type' shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.

What I wanna know (for the people arguing the shelf life is only 2 weeks or whatever) is does this short shelf life apply to after it is mixed? Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question but, I'm wanting to learn a little more about this stuff. And I don't need someone's opinion on it. I want solid facts.

[DenverChief]

Uh hello isn't it possible that the sarin gas came from the Japanese terorists and imported into Iraq?

[BigMeatballDave]

The war has already been justified.

The Bush doctorine states that we will come after terrorists, and those who aid and support them.

1) Saddam wrote checks to terrorists' families in Syria and Israel.

2) Saddam did not fulfill his end of a cease fire signed after the FIRST gulf war that ended hostilities.

3) He tried to assasinate the POTUS.

4) He is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

5) He allowed the training of terrorists on his military bases.

6) His own people wanted him gone.

7) This war is a part of the bigger WOT. In case anyone has failed to notice we're fighting TERRORISTS in Iraq. We have stated that we will root out terror WHEREVER it is. Terrorists are in Iraq.Again, facts. You're confusing them...

[memyselfI]

Congrats! With this analogy, you have reduced yourself to the lowest form of human scum on this board!
I shall kindly ask you to phuq off!
4321

Why. The US wants the benefit of the doubt in both situations and yet we are expecting the standard applied to be different. :hmmm:

Don't think so. As occupiers and the world's policeman the burden of proof is ON the US to prove we are correct in our assertions not on the world to prove disprove our assertions.

[ptlyon]

What I wanna know (for the people arguing the shelf life is only 2 weeks or whatever) is does this short shelf life apply to after it is mixed? Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question but, I'm wanting to learn a little more about this stuff. And I don't need someone's opinion on it. I want solid facts.

Sorry Lzen, they can't come up with it. I asked like 2 pages ago...

[Amnorix]

The war has already been justified.

The Bush doctorine states that we will come after terrorists, and those who aid and support them.

3) He tried to assasinate the POTUS.


Could you please give me a frame of reference for this? As in, err, wha...?

[FringeNC]

Uh hello isn't it possible that the sarin gas came from the Japanese terorists and imported into Iraq?

You're kidding, right?

[Rausch]

Uh hello isn't it possible that the sarin gas came from the Japanese terorists and imported into Iraq?

It's POSSIBLE that Aliens from Alpha Centauri came down and gave it to them...

[Calcountry]

Okay. Let's begin:

1. What convenient timing. Odd, we have had no success fnding rigged artillery shells before, but now we just HAPPEN to find one, with Sarin, no less, right when the administration needs a distraction.

2. How much Sarin? "tens of thousands of liters"? Heh. Didn't think so.

3. Has the Sarin actually been CONFIRMED yet? I seem to remember hearing a lot of these tales in the months following the invasion, and within 24-48 hours, they had been debunked.

4. Has the Sarin been proven to be Iraqi in origin? Could just as easily have been hauled in from Syria. Shelf life of Sarin gas in an uncontrolled environment is ~ 2 months.
Well then, we need to go take Syria then. :thumb:

[DenverChief]

BTW I think it is cool that the list of people in here is almost as big as the list of people on the planet :thumb:

[ChiTown]

You're kidding, right?

Sadly, no.

[BigMeatballDave]

Uh hello isn't it possible that the sarin gas came from the Japanese terorists and imported into Iraq?Yeah, I'm sure thats it...

[ptlyon]

You're kidding, right?

Yes he is

[Rausch]

Well then, we need to go take Syria then. :thumb:

Absolutely...

[OldTownChief]

Why. The US wants the benefit of the doubt in both situations and yet we are expecting the standard applied to be different. :hmmm:

Don't think so. As occupiers and the world's policeman the burden of proof is ON the US to prove we are correct in our assertions not on the world to prove disprove our assertions.

Don't you have to leave to cash your next welfare check that we provided for you?

[Donger]

Could you please give me a frame of reference for this? As in, err, wha...?

The assassination part?

If so, Hussein tried plotted to kill Bush I while he was visiting Kuwait in 1993. Clinton lobbed a few Tomahawks at the Iraqi Intelligence building in retaliation.

The building was virtually empty, of course.

[DenverChief]

It's POSSIBLE that Aliens from Alpha Centauri came down and gave it to them...

If you believe in Aliens and John Titor the time traveller...much easier to believe in Japanese terrorists:shrug:

[Loki]

Facts is facts.

2 month shelf life in that environment.

There's really only three places this could have come from:

1. Syria
2. Iran
3. USA

my money is on #2 - iran.

BTW:
i'm quite sure you forgot a few nations in your list. you could probably make that 6 or 7 instead of 3 choices...

[Radar Chief]

BTW I think it is cool that the list of people in here is almost as big as the list of people on the planet :thumb:

Probably part of why it shot up to around 200 posts in about 2 hours.

[Amnorix]

The assassination part?

If so, Hussein tried plotted to kill Bush I while he was visiting Kuwait in 1993. Clinton lobbed a few Tomahawks at the Iraqi Intelligence building in retaliation.

The building was virtually empty, of course.

Ah, that does trigger some vague memory synapses now that you mention it.

[Calcountry]

Again, facts. You're confusing them...
You forgot that he was in violation of the cease fire agreement at the end of Gulf War I, which returns combatants to their previous state. To me, when they fired on our jets that were patrolling the no fly zones, that was justification and provocation enough to lay waste to the Sadaam Regime. Libs want to control America and will stop at nothing to regain power, even taking the side of a vicious, murderous dictator while at the same time trying to morally equivocate our President, George W Bush, with said tyrant.

Unbelievable. :shake:

Kruschev was right, they will take us without firing a shot.

[Armyofme]

Amazing that this small amount of OLD sarin gas can create such a ravenous pack of wolves...

You people are smarter than that. This proves nothing. All it proves is that Iraq had sarin gas years ago... we already knew that. There is no way the administration would go through the trouble of planting such an insignificant amount of old gas.

[stevieray]

Don't think so. As occupiers and the world's policeman the burden of proof is ON the US to prove we are correct in our assertions not on the world to prove disprove our assertions.

Apparently it's up to the Democrats.

[Rausch]

If you believe in Aliens and John Titor the time traveller...much easier to believe in Japanese terrorists:shrug:

Oh, I could argue both sides of this one for hours. No reason to fug up a good WOMD thread though... :)

[DenverChief]

Yeah, I'm sure thats it...
Are you 100% sure? Maybe disloyal Saudi soldiers snuck it across the border, maybe the CIA planted it, maybe Chechnyians planted it there 3 years ago in anticipation of the U.S. Invasion. :shrug:

[memyselfI]

Don't you have to leave to cash your next welfare check that we provided for you?

LOL, you must be a newbie. Seems like this is a popular attack from the Cons on the right when they have nothing of any intelligence to add. You are hardly being original.

[ptlyon]

Amazing that this small amount of OLD sarin gas can create such a ravenous pack of wolves...


I don't believe anyone has said it proves anything. We are just enjoying the lib spin on the whole deal.

[OldTownChief]

http://www.thehumorsource.com/pictures/1307.jpg

[DenverChief]

Oh, I could argue both sides of this one for hours. No reason to fug up a good WOMD thread though... :)


ROFLROFLROFL

[Rausch]

Amazing that this small amount of OLD sarin gas can create such a ravenous pack of wolves...

You people are smarter than that. This proves nothing. All it proves is that Iraq had sarin gas years ago... we already knew that. There is no way the administration would go through the trouble of planting such an insignificant amount of old gas.

Uh, here's how time works: if something is created 20 years ago and still exists today, it HAD to exist for every moment between those two times.

That means that WOMD that were created 20 years ago were NOT destroyed, as Saddam claimed.

[memyselfI]

http://www.thehumorsource.com/pictures/1307.jpg


LOLOL, I haven't seen that one so that IS original.

[ptlyon]

Are you 100% sure? Maybe disloyal Saudi soldiers snuck it across the border, maybe the CIA planted it, maybe Chechnyians planted it there 3 years ago in anticipation of the U.S. Invasion. :shrug:

:doh!: You're killing me Smails

[BigMeatballDave]

Originally Posted by OldTownChief Don't you have to leave to cash your next welfare check that we provided for you?

LOL, you must be a newbie. Seems like this is a popular attack from the Cons on the right when they have nothing of any intelligence to add. You are hardly being original.

Yeah, but when it comes to you libs, its still valid. Piss and moan about the government, but beg for their assistance on everything... :shake:

[ChiTown]

Are you 100% sure? Maybe disloyal Saudi soldiers snuck it across the border, maybe the CIA planted it, maybe Chechnyians planted it there 3 years ago in anticipation of the U.S. Invasion. :shrug:

ok, time to seek help........

I like your version of the Japanese terrorists better ROFL

[ptlyon]

Yeah, but when it comes to you libs, its still valid. Piss and moan about the government, but beg for their assistance on everything... :shake:

Rep-a-licious

[DenverChief]

:doh!: You're killing me Smails

:) ROFL I do my best to do my duty to fug with everyones head:p

[BigMeatballDave]

I don't believe anyone has said it proves anything. We are just enjoying the lib spin on the whole deal.
:thumb: Exactly!

[Armyofme]

Uh, here's how time works: if something is created 20 years ago and still exists today, it HAD to exist for every moment between those two times.

That means that WOMD that were created 20 years ago were NOT destroyed, as Saddam claimed.

Seeing that this is one warhead leads me to believe this one could have slipped through the cracks. I'm not defending Sadam at all, but if we found one the whole time we have been there, then that points to it being overlooked, not "hidden".

[DenverChief]

ok, time to seek help........

I like your version of the Japanese terrorists better ROFL

Hey I'm just drawing out the fight, muddying the waters and adding fuel to this fire :D

[memyselfI]

Yeah, but when it comes to you libs, its still valid. Piss and moan about the government, but beg for their assistance on everything... :shake:


Yeah, that is about as true as all Cons being rich tax sheltering millionaires. The truth is a small portion of them are while the rest of their sheep are wannabees.

[MrBlond]

Yeah, that is about as true as all Cons being rich tax sheltering millionaires. The truth is a small portion of them are while the rest of their sheep are wannabees.

Yep. Your "truth" is much more fair and accurate. Really lends credibility to your wailing.

[ptlyon]

Yeah, that is about as true as all Cons being rich tax sheltering millionaires.

She finally said something I agree with.

Let's not forget the Kerry's and the Heinz's

[Rausch]

Seeing that this is one warhead leads me to believe this one could have slipped through the cracks. I'm not defending Sadam at all

Yes, you are.

You're saying it's not his fault he didn't destory all his WOMD....

[Amnorix]

Yeah, but when it comes to you libs, its still valid. Piss and moan about the government, but beg for their assistance on everything... :shake:

I'm a liberal.

I've never received welfare (except unemployment for a brief period).

I am currently, and always have, paid my income taxes when due.

Thank you for your overgeneralizations.

[Armyofme]

Yes, you are.

You're saying it's not his fault he didn't destory all his WOMD....

C'mon... seriously... I'm not even going to get into it with you. Not worth it.

[ptlyon]

I'm a liberal.

I've never received welfare (except unemployment for a brief period).

I am currently, and always have, paid my income taxes when due.

Thank you for your overgeneralizations.

Wish there were more of you

[Loki]

Um, not quite.

he's right MPM.

[Abba-Dabba]

Damn, fruit rollups are good!

I had forgotten how tasty that morsel of fruitiness is!

[manny]

The war has already been justified.

The Bush doctorine states that we will come after terrorists, and those who aid and support them.

1) Saddam wrote checks to terrorists' families in Syria and Israel.

2) Saddam did not fulfill his end of a cease fire signed after the FIRST gulf war that ended hostilities.

3) He tried to assasinate the POTUS.

4) He is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

5) He allowed the training of terrorists on his military bases.

6) His own people wanted him gone.

7) This war is a part of the bigger WOT. In case anyone has failed to notice we're fighting TERRORISTS in Iraq. We have stated that we will root out terror WHEREVER it is. Terrorists are in Iraq.

1. The US wrote checks to the Contras in Nicaragua, and to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Syria and the Palestinians have been fighting the Israelis over illegal, UN-condemned occupations of their lands. "Terrorists" is the new term for anyone in the way of US interests.

2. Please, this is a joke, a country that can't even control its own airspace, is viewed by its neighbors (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria) as no threat, is heavily sanctioned economically, is criss-crossed with weapons inspectors, etc. and it's violating a "cease-fire"? A thin excuse for the US and Britain, to continue and bolster a large military presence in the Middle East.

3. Coincidentally, Seymour Hersh (heard of him) wrote a piece in the New Yorker a few years back debunking this claim. Some gun- and rum-runners were nabbed at the border, and the Kuwaiti government trumpeted it into a plot to assassinate Bush Sr., the same government that manufactured claims of Iraqi soldiers bayonetting incubator babies during their invasion. Go look up the article in the New Yorker archives.

4. Yes, so is Indonesia, but US aid flows forward to the military government there, just as it did at the time of many of Husseins war crimes and human rights violations. How bout this guy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

5. 6. & 7. If you call anyone who opposes you a terrorist you can do whatever you want and have a ready justification. Hitler invaded Poland calling them "terrorists", etc. The FACT is that the US/UK invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, unprovoked, an act in violation of international law, and one that's been followed by terror against the Iraqi population in the streets AND in the prisons. Resisting that doesn't make someone a "terrorist" it makes them a nationalist.

[ptlyon]

Damn, fruit rollups are good!

I had forgotten how tasty that morsel of fruitiness is!

I'm really hungry for a peanut buster parfait right now

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm a liberal.

I've never received welfare (except unemployment for a brief period).

I am currently, and always have, paid my income taxes when due.

Thank you for your overgeneralizations.And libs don't overgeneralize? I consider myself a moderate with a slight lean to the right. I've been called a neocon, among other things...

[Frankie]

We'll see where this leads in good time.

I note for the record that people that think the gubment planted this are pretty much fools. You need to carefully think about how MANY people would be involved in approving and setting up the scheme you suggest. Whaddya think -- all Bush has to do is call the "Cigarette Man" and POOF, there's a sarin loaded shell found in Iraq? :shake:

Hey boys and girls, I just tuned in to the planet. Ain't gonna read 14 pages of replies to this thread. So if the following points have been discussed, tough!

1- What has been found is "typical of shells that were produced during the Iran/Iraq war." (MSNBC). Given the sloppy work and prevalent corruption of the Iraqi officials, it is not at all inconceivable that some random shells have escaped beeing destroyed or used up on the iranians and the Kurds.

2- I do not agree with Amnorix here. I want all you 'cons' and anyone else who categorically dismiss and ridicule any so called "conspiracy theory" to answer this question truthfully, honestly and without political bias:
Is it physically impossible to "plant" a shell or a bunch of them anywhere in Iraq?

[Abba-Dabba]

I'm really hungry for a peanut buster parfait right now

I haven't had one of those in years. Didn't know they still made them.

[BigMeatballDave]

I'm really hungry for a peanut buster parfait right now...and with this, I am out to lunch before I head to work.

Good day, folks!

[ChiTown]

I'm a liberal.

I've never received welfare (except unemployment for a brief period).

I am currently, and always have, paid my income taxes when due.



Yeah, right! ;)

[Logical]

Wow... I'd be emabarrased to be you. You actually think libs and terrorists have the same agenda? Libs want freedom and peace as much as you. They just have different idea's on how to achieve it. That's doesn't make them wrong... it makes them different. If you really feel this way I'm ashamed to share a country with you.

Not as ashamed as we are to have to share our country with liberals like you.:shake:

[Abba-Dabba]

Not as ashamed as we are to have to share our country with liberals like you.:shake:

:rolleyes:

[Rausch]

C'mon... seriously... I'm not even going to get into it with you. Not worth it.

This is your statement, right?

Seeing that this is one warhead leads me to believe this one could have slipped through the cracks.

Does this statement not put forth the idea that this existing was unintentional? That it was a mistake? That it was an oversight?

[Duck Dog]

It's one of 550. It's not out of the question to think one fell through the cracks just as much as it's not out of the question to think that where there are one there are more. What I do know is there is at least one, which is more than Sadam said he had, meaning he lied. He lied about having them and he lied about destroying them. It was not unreasonable to make him prove it.

[ptlyon]

I haven't had one of those in years.

Same here. I assume they still do.

The fudge, peanuts, ice cream... :drool:

[Amnorix]

Wish there were more of you

There are lots of us. Like many millions of hardworking men and women.

:shrug:

[ChiTown]

Same here. I assume they still do.

The fudge, peanuts, ice cream... :drool:

Seriously? My kids love DQ. Whenever we go, I always get the PBP. It's phugging outstanding!

[MrBlond]

1. The US wrote checks to the Contras in Nicaragua, and to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Syria and the Palestinians have been fighting the Israelis over illegal, UN-condemned occupations of their lands. "Terrorists" is the new term for anyone in the way of US interests.

2. Please, this is a joke, a country that can't even control its own airspace, is viewed by its neighbors (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria) as no threat, is heavily sanctioned economically, is criss-crossed with weapons inspectors, etc. and it's violating a "cease-fire"? A thin excuse for the US and Britain, to continue and bolster a large military presence in the Middle East.

3. Coincidentally, Seymour Hersh (heard of him) wrote a piece in the New Yorker a few years back debunking this claim. Some gun- and rum-runners were nabbed at the border, and the Kuwaiti government trumpeted it into a plot to assassinate Bush Sr., the same government that manufactured claims of Iraqi soldiers bayonetting incubator babies during their invasion. Go look up the article in the New Yorker archives.

4. Yes, so is Indonesia, but US aid flows forward to the military government there, just as it did at the time of many of Husseins war crimes and human rights violations. How bout this guy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

5. 6. & 7. If you call anyone who opposes you a terrorist you can do whatever you want and have a ready justification. Hitler invaded Poland calling them "terrorists", etc. The FACT is that the US/UK invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, unprovoked, an act in violation of international law, and one that's been followed by terror against the Iraqi population in the streets AND in the prisons. Resisting that doesn't make someone a "terrorist" it makes them a nationalist.

You are almost there. You are so close to saying what you really mean. That America are the real terrorists and that we deserved what we got.

[ptlyon]

Seriously? My kids love DQ. Whenever we go, I always get the PBP. It's phugging outstanding!

I usually cave into the dilly bars.

Next time, and it will be soon, I'm housing down a PBP.

[Amnorix]

And libs don't overgeneralize? I consider myself a moderate with a slight lean to the right. I've been called a neocon, among other things...

Slight lean to the right?

Hrm.....

[flipping pages]

Sorry, you're "evil". It's official. page 47 of the "Democratic Unity Handbook, We Will Overcome the Evil Neo-Cons", right here. Oh well. Sorry.

And I never tow the party line and I never overgeneralize!!! :cuss::cuss:



:):p

[ptlyon]

There are lots of us. Like many millions of hardworking men and women.

:shrug:

Not enough the way that the libs like to give the money away

[Amnorix]

2- I do not agree with Amnorix here. I want all you 'cons' and anyone else who categorically dismiss and ridicule any so called "conspiracy theory" to answer this question truthfully, honestly and without political bias:
Is it physically impossible to "plant" a shell or a bunch of them anywhere in Iraq?

Not impossible. Unlikely to an extremely high order of magnitude.

Riddle me this:

1. Do you think nerve agents in the US are carefully controlled substances?

2. Do you think they are carefully handled and tracked, using specific serial number and/or other identification markers?

3. Do you think it's easy to arrange for their movement or shipment?

4. How many people do you think would be involved in that process?

5. How many people would be involved in making the necessary quantity of the stuff "disappear" from the records.

6. How much of a death blow would this be to the Republicans if they did all this and that information leaked.

7. Would YOU trust that many people you don't know with your reputation? Your livelihood?

Impossible? No. VERY, VERY unlikely? Yes.

[ChiTown]

You are almost there. You are so close to saying what you really mean. That America are the real terrorists and that we deserved what we got.

It's sickening to see that implied in manny's comments. That's the biggest problem with some from the left. They are so in love with the political ideals of their party, that they prefer it over America. Very, very sad.....

[Amnorix]

Not enough the way that the libs like to give the money away

Funny how we had fiscal sanity under Clinton and have fiscal INsanity under Bush.

Funny how Bush hasn't reigned in government spending one damn bit since he took over.

[Patriot 21]

Yeah, that is about as true as all Cons being rich tax sheltering millionaires. The truth is a small portion of them are while the rest of their sheep are wannabees.

Sheep wannabees? You BITCH! 4321

[Rausch]

1. The US wrote checks to the Contras in Nicaragua, and to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Syria and the Palestinians have been fighting the Israelis over illegal, UN-condemned occupations of their lands. "Terrorists" is the new term for anyone in the way of US interests.

That has nothing to do with anything. We also killed Indians because they thought they weren't human. What does that have to do with the situation at hand?

AMERICAN POLICY CHANGED AFTER 9/11. We are comming after ALL terrorists, and the governements that aid them. Period. We can't attack them all at once, but we can attack them all in time.

2. Please, this is a joke, a country that can't even control its own airspace, is viewed by its neighbors (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria) as no threat, is heavily sanctioned economically, is criss-crossed with weapons inspectors, etc. and it's violating a "cease-fire"? A thin excuse for the US and Britain, to continue and bolster a large military presence in the Middle East.

Saudi Arabia DID view Iraq as a threat. WTF are you getting your information?

A cease fire agreement is what it is. If you break it we are not bound by it any longer. Period.

Your deflection does not negate the fact that Saddam broke EVERY agreement he has ever made with the united states, save one...

3. Coincidentally, Seymour Hersh (heard of him) wrote a piece in the New Yorker a few years back debunking this claim. Some gun- and rum-runners were nabbed at the border, and the Kuwaiti government trumpeted it into a plot to assassinate Bush Sr., the same government that manufactured claims of Iraqi soldiers bayonetting incubator babies during their invasion. Go look up the article in the New Yorker archives.

Go look up the Israeli intelligence reports that lay out how interrogated Hammas and Islamic Jihad members ADMITTED to being trained in Iraq...now, I'm sure Seymour Hersh has more ability to gain this type of information than the Israeli government, but there's a small chance they might be right this time considering they are home to the most effective intelligence agency on the planet.

4. Yes, so is Indonesia, but US aid flows forward to the military government there, just as it did at the time of many of Husseins war crimes and human rights violations. How bout this guy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

Again, you aren't arguing the reasons Saddam had to go, instead, you claim America is just as bad as Saddam.

We also have and have used nuclear weapons, that does not make it ok for Saddam to have them.

5. 6. & 7. If you call anyone who opposes you a terrorist you can do whatever you want and have a ready justification. Hitler invaded Poland calling them "terrorists", etc. The FACT is that the US/UK invasion of Iraq was unnecessary, unprovoked, an act in violation of international law, and one that's been followed by terror against the Iraqi population in the streets AND in the prisons. Resisting that doesn't make someone a "terrorist" it makes them a nationalist.

This statement is ignorant on many levels. Instead of debunking Saddam's crimes you state what America may or may not have done.

Just because the Mayor of DC smoked crack doens't mean you should be imprisoned for it. Just because OJ got off doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute other murderers.

Only one point in your argument even tries to debunk the reasons we went to war in Iraq. In EVERY instance you question American motives, and not ONE SINGLE TIME denounce Saddam.

[Rausch]

Funny how Bush hasn't reigned in government spending one damn bit since he took over.

I don't understand this either.

I support any and all funding given to law enforcement or the military at this time, but that money has to come from somewhere, which means someone else shouldn't be getting it.

It's a splurge now and pay for it later mentality that I don't agree with at all...

[Armyofme]

This is your statement, right?



Does this statement not put forth the idea that this existing was unintentional? That it was a mistake? That it was an oversight?

Yes on all accounts.

You make it sound like I am a Sadam appologist, and I am not. I know he is/was an evil man. All I am saying is that THIS find does not prove that he was lying about having those weapons. Pretty simple.

Again, I am in no way saying that he wasn't lying... only that this does not prove that he was.

[Rausch]

Yes on all accounts.

That means that you are saying that it isn't HIS FAULT that he didn't get rid of WOMD.

You make it sound like I am a Sadam appologist,

You are making yourself sound that way. YOU JUST GAVE REASONING FOR WHY SADDAM HAVING WOMD WERE NOT HIS FAULT.

You did. Not me. You are making excuses for Saddam.

and I am not. I know he is/was an evil man. All I am saying is that THIS find does not prove that he was lying about having those weapons. Pretty simple.

If these two were the ONLY two examples of nerve agent in his country it is still a lie. He was not allowed to have any. NONE. ZERO.

He does not have the option of forgetting, making a mistake, having an oversight. ALL of it was to be destroyed. ALL OF IT.

[Armyofme]

Actually, let me add that it COULD have been unintentional, a mistake, or an oversight... not that it was.

[Rausch]

Actually, let me add that it COULD have been unintentional, a mistake, or an oversight... not that it was.

Look at it this way: I might be clean and sober for a year, but if the cops search my house and find a quarter pound of cocaine that I had forgotten about I'm still going to jail...

It's still illegal and I still broke the law.

[Armyofme]

That means that you are saying that it isn't HIS FAULT that he didn't get rid of WOMD.



You are making yourself sound that way. YOU JUST GAVE REASONING FOR WHY SADDAM HAVING WOMD WERE NOT HIS FAULT.

You did. Not me. You are making excuses for Saddam.



If these two were the ONLY two examples of nerve agent in his country it is still a lie. He was not allowed to have any. NONE. ZERO.

He does not have the option of forgetting, making a mistake, having an oversight. ALL of it was to be destroyed. ALL OF IT.

Why attack me? You have to make me look like a bad guy to make your point? Exactly why I didn't want to get into this with you... I made my point, I'm done.

[Ugly Duck]

Here we are, quibbling over whether or not the shell came from Sodom or from somewhere else. Whether its part of one of the reputed stockpiles, or one that slipped through the cracks. Whether or not it validates the "gathering threat" claim put forth by the Bushies. Whether its the Libs or the Cons get to sing the "Ha-ha told you so" song. Lets both of us hope and pray that the shell is not part of stockpile. Cuz if it is, its our boyz that may pay a heavy price. If the bad guyz have a stash of this stuff or are bringing it in from somewhere else, our guyz are at serious risk. I'm hoping that the Jihadists just found that shell and didn't even know it was had sarin in it. Hate to see our guyz sweating in chem suits in the desert trying to fight an urban war. Hats off to the servicemen.

[Brock]

Funny how we had fiscal sanity under Clinton and have fiscal INsanity under Bush.

Funny how Bush hasn't reigned in government spending one damn bit since he took over.

Funny how Bush has had to deal with the largest American calamity since Pearl Harbor, and funny how if Clinton had prosecuted a war on terrorism he would have had to spend the money for it. What's not funny is how Clinton had WTC 1 and the Cole bombing happen on his watch and was too distracted with his cock to do anything about it.

[ZepSinger]

Funny how Bush has had to deal with the largest American calamity since Pearl Harbor, and funny how if Clinton had prosecuted a war on terrorism he would have had to spend the money for it. What's not funny is how Clinton had WTC 1 and the Cole bombing happen on his watch and was too distracted with his cock to do anything about it.

What he said. :clap:

[redbrian]

Here we are, quibbling over whether or not the shell came from Sodom or from somewhere else. Whether its part of one of the reputed stockpiles, or one that slipped through the cracks. Whether or not it validates the "gathering threat" claim put forth by the Bushies. Whether its the Libs or the Cons get to sing the "Ha-ha told you so" song. Lets both of us hope and pray that the shell is not part of stockpile. Cuz if it is, its our boyz that may pay a heavy price. If the bad guyz have a stash of this stuff or are bringing it in from somewhere else, our guyz are at serious risk. I'm hoping that the Jihadists just found that shell and didn't even know it was had sarin in it. Hate to see our guyz sweating in chem suits in the desert trying to fight an urban war. Hats off to the servicemen.

Why assume it was the “Jihadists”, is it not more likely that it was part of Saddam’s old regime?

[ptlyon]

Funny how we had fiscal sanity under Clinton and have fiscal INsanity under Bush.


Funny that almost immediately after Bush took office that it became such an issue.

No, no, 8 years of Clinton in office had nothing to do with it.

Things were fiiiiine. :rolleyes:

[beavis]

Not impossible. Unlikely to an extremely high order of magnitude.

Riddle me this:

1. Do you think nerve agents in the US are carefully controlled substances?

2. Do you think they are carefully handled and tracked, using specific serial number and/or other identification markers?

3. Do you think it's easy to arrange for their movement or shipment?

4. How many people do you think would be involved in that process?

5. How many people would be involved in making the necessary quantity of the stuff "disappear" from the records.

6. How much of a death blow would this be to the Republicans if they did all this and that information leaked.

7. Would YOU trust that many people you don't know with your reputation? Your livelihood?

Impossible? No. VERY, VERY unlikely? Yes.
Which is more likely, that it was planted by US forces, or that it came from a hostile element? I'd rate the odds at about 99,999 to 1.