If Chiefs don't rebound this year and at least make the playoffs........

[chiefsfan1963]

should Carl, Vermeil, and his staff be shown the door?

[Mr. Laz]

carl for sure... our personnel dept. has being doing a cr@p job for the last 5+ years or so.



and if Carl is just letting his Head Coach do what he wants(which i find hard to believe) then it's STILL something he has chosen to let happen. He is still responsible.


whether Vermeil goes, depends on whether they have someone "great" in mind to replace him.


Find the replacement BEFORE you make the coaching change. Vermeil shouldn't get pissed... since he took Gunther's job the same way. :shrug:

[Cannibal]

Unless we actually win a playoff game this year Carl should be shown the door. I'd actually go so far as to say that if we don't make it to the AFC title game that Carl should be fired.

Carl hasn't come anywhere near to fielding a complete football team since he's been here.

He should've been sh!t canned with Marty.

[nmt1]

Vermiel has another year on his contract and he'll most likely hang it up after that. I believe Lamar will let Carl stay as long as he wants. So we're looking at at least one more year of both. Whether or not that's a good thing is debatable.

[Logical]

I would settle for Carl being shown the door.

[milkman]

He should've been sh!t canned with Marty.

That is the truth!

[nmt1]

I would settle for Carl being shown the door.

I doubt very seriously that Vermiel would be retained if Carl was fired. When a GM is let go, the tendency is to start from scratch. Frankly, the Chiefs aren't bad enough to start from scratch. No owner is his right mind(not even Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder) is going to see the number one scoring offense in the league two years running and decide to dump it all.
The Lions and Bengals come to mind as good examples of teams that have been bad enough in recent times to start from scratch.

[Archie Bunker]

I am about ready to see the plug pulled on this. I miss the days when the Chiefs would punch people in the mouth on offense and defense. I am tired of seeing the offense try to be cute and the defense using their asses as a hat. I cant stand this crap anymore.

With this line and group of Wr's Saunders should be running the ball around 30 times a game instead he tries to be cute. RUN THE DAMN BALL.

I dont blame the defense this year. The offense has sucked and has put a mediocre defense in position that it should not be in.

Fire Carl for not being able to draft
Fire Vermeil for being too loyal
Fire Saunders for sucking at play calling.

As retarded as its sounds I would rather lose 17-13 with a bad ass defense like under marty than 31-17 with a crappy defense and an offense whose numbers were inflated by a weak schedule last year.

[Gaz]

As long as our much-cited “window” is still open, leave them alone. If we totally crash and burn then scrap it all and start the long march all over again.

xoxo~
Gaz
Supported a crappy team before and will doubtless do it again.

[Mr. Laz]

Vermiel has another year on his contract and he'll most likely hang it up after that. I believe Lamar will let Carl stay as long as he wants. So we're looking at at least one more year of both. Whether or not that's a good thing is debatable.I doubt very seriously that Vermiel would be retained if Carl was fired. When a GM is let go, the tendency is to start from scratch. Frankly, the Chiefs aren't bad enough to start from scratch. No owner is his right mind(not even Jerry Jones or Daniel Snyder) is going to see the number one scoring offense in the league two years running and decide to dump it all.
The Lions and Bengals come to mind as good examples of teams that have been bad enough in recent times to start from scratch.

your answering the question as if you work for the chiefs...


what is YOUR opinion ... not what you think the chiefs will do, what should they do.


if they don't win this year... should anyone be let go? should anyone be kept?

[Brock]

ROFL

Give me a break. If Peterson hasn't been canned by now, he never will be.

[nmt1]

your answering the question as if you work for the chiefs...
You forget, I am on the payroll. :D



what is YOUR opinion ... not what you think the chiefs will do, what should they do.


if they don't win this year... should anyone be let go? should anyone be kept?

I'd be more inclined to let scouting staff and players go. I don't have much of an opinion on Carl or Vermiel because I believe they will be retained until the end of their contracts. I wouldn't make wholesale changes on either side of the ball. Try to draft better and continue to develop the young players we've already got. I don't believe that free agency is the panacea it's made out to be. I would probably continue to do exactly what's being done now regarding free agency. Shy away from the older big name players and concentrate on the younger players who have potential. Pro and college scouting would have to do a better job, most definitly.

[Mr. Laz]

You forget, I am on the payroll. :D

i keep forgetting ROFL

I'd be more inclined to let scouting staff and players go. I don't have much of an opinion on Carl or Vermiel because I believe they will be retained until the end of their contracts. I wouldn't make wholesale changes on either side of the ball. Try to draft better and continue to develop the young players we've already got. I don't believe that free agency is the panacea it's made out to be. I would probably continue to do exactly what's being done now regarding free agency. Shy away from the older big name players and concentrate on the younger players who have potential. Pro and college scouting would have to do a better job, most definitly.

i could go for that...

fire the scouting dept, remove the GM title from Carl peterson, but keep carl peterson has CEO/President etc.


hire a new GM and a New scouting dept to go with it.

keep the current coaching staff.


t'would be a good start


i would like to see what would happen with a General Manager who's priorities aren't split by having the CEO label too.

[cdcox]

Hunt kept Steadman for years and years of losing. There is absolutely zero chance that Hunt will fire Peterson.

If it were up to me, and if it is apparent at the end of the season that the window had closed, I would have a long talk with Vermiel. If he could not commit to a 3 year rebuilding project, I would ask him to step down. If Vermiel left, Carl would leave with him, one way or another.

[Chief Fanatic]

I couldn't agree more about the lack of intensity this team shows. I want peope on D that want to make heads roll and some receivers looking for some hellacious blocks to throw, legal but blowing people up. I want a physical team with a bunch of Ray Lewis's or just one would be nice.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

I'd be ok with shit-canning Carl and Dick today. We can't do any worse. We were better and more consistant under Marty...imo.

[shaneo69]

I would only fire CP and DV if Marty was available to come back in the dual role of Head Coach/GM.

[BigRedChief]

Carl needs to go.

[tk13]

Absolutely not, everything seems to be set up to give us a two year window... the coaches seem to be signed through a two year window, and just the way they've made other moves (like make sure the entire O-line is signed through '05) make me think we've been planning this with a two year window all along.... and I've said that pretty much offseason. I don't think it's necessarily a bad move... as we've seen with the injuries we've had, way too many things can go wrong when you put all your eggs in one basket for one big run. That said, I think we're weeding out what we have now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see us spend a bit more money next year to make one big run at it...

[ChiefsCountry]

Keep Carl as CEO, he is good on the business end of things but we need a real football guy as GM. Make the right free agent signings, draft, etc.

[Logical]

...
I'd be more inclined to let scouting staff and players go. I don't have much of an opinion on Carl or Vermiel because I believe they will be retained until the end of their contracts. I wouldn't make wholesale changes on either side of the ball. Try to draft better and continue to develop the young players we've already got. I don't believe that free agency is the panacea it's made out to be. I would probably continue to do exactly what's being done now regarding free agency. Shy away from the older big name players and concentrate on the younger players who have potential. Pro and college scouting would have to do a better job, most definitly.

Which younger players with potential are you talking about? I do not recall any of those this year in free agency picked up by the Chiefs?

[Logical]

I would only fire CP and DV if Marty was available to come back in the dual role of Head Coach/GM.

:rolleyes: That would probably be the end of my days as a Chiefs fan.:harumph:

[htismaqe]

I would only fire CP and DV if Marty was available to come back in the dual role of Head Coach/GM.

I certainly hope yer fuggin kidding.

[htismaqe]

Which younger players with potential are you talking about? I do not recall any of those this year in free agency picked up by the Chiefs?

Do you have to be a total ass?

No, we haven't drafted well in recent years, but saying this team is COMPLETELY void of potential is ridiculous.

[htismaqe]

Personally, I wouldn't be at all disappointed to see the whole lot of them retire at the end of the season -- Peterson on down.

I wanted a fresh started after 1998.

[Demonpenz]

i would like to take a couple years and rebuild

[KC Jones]

I believe Lamar will let Carl stay as long as he wants. So we're looking at at least one more year of both. Whether or not that's a good thing is debatable.

Not only will Carl stay as long as he wants, he will take some top position with Hunt Enterprises and probably be the guy to hire the next GM. He will also keep that GM on something of a short leash. Carl will probably be our version of Jerry Jones, only he'll be a surrogate for the owner instead of an actual 'meddling' owner.

The downside of all this of course is that the new GM won't be given much authority to clean house and revamp out personnel department.

[whoman69]

I think there's alot of people smoking dope on this thread. Vermeil took this club from the depths and we lose two games and its all over. Marty was given his shot and never would have gotten us there, though I thank him for bringing the pride back from what we had in the 70s and 80s. CP will also never get the job done, reason being that he tries to prove himself the genius every year by reaching on the first day of the draft. The last player we drafted that was all-Pro is Tony G. His record in the 2nd round is atrocious. Give him the benefit of the doubt by comparing his draft record to the rest of the league? I don't want to compare the Chiefs to the Cardinals and Bengals over the years, compare them to the teams that have been successful over time.

[BigChiefFan]

I think there's alot of people smoking dope on this thread. Vermeil took this club from the depths and we lose two games and its all over. Marty was given his shot and never would have gotten us there, though I thank him for bringing the pride back from what we had in the 70s and 80s. CP will also never get the job done, reason being that he tries to prove himself the genius every year by reaching on the first day of the draft. The last player we drafted that was all-Pro is Tony G. His record in the 2nd round is atrocious. Give him the benefit of the doubt by comparing his draft record to the rest of the league? I don't want to compare the Chiefs to the Cardinals and Bengals over the years, compare them to the teams that have been successful over time.
Very good post. I'm not giving up on the Chiefs either, but I do believe Carl Peterson is below average at building a team through the draft. The Chiefs seem to love the tweeners, instead of a player who is established at his position. It gets old buying into the Carl hype. His record speaks for itself. No playoff wins in in over a decade. Ugh. I'm drained by the Peterson era and his act has grown old.

[Chief Roundup]

No

[chiefsfan1963]

I think there's alot of people smoking dope on this thread. Vermeil took this club from the depths and we lose two games and its all over. Marty was given his shot and never would have gotten us there, though I thank him for bringing the pride back from what we had in the 70s and 80s. CP will also never get the job done, reason being that he tries to prove himself the genius every year by reaching on the first day of the draft. The last player we drafted that was all-Pro is Tony G. His record in the 2nd round is atrocious. Give him the benefit of the doubt by comparing his draft record to the rest of the league? I don't want to compare the Chiefs to the Cardinals and Bengals over the years, compare them to the teams that have been successful over time.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[chiefsfan1963]

when the last time we had a top 10 draft choice?! It's pretty tough to pick great players when on average you are drafting 18th or more in the draft each year.

[Chief Roundup]

when the last time we had a top 10 draft choice?! It's pretty tough to pick great players when on average you are drafting 18th or more in the draft each year.
Sims was the 6th pick IIRC.
Henderson and Haynesworth have both looked better than Sims. But they definitely have more talent around them.

[htismaqe]

Sims was the 6th pick IIRC.
Henderson and Haynesworth have both looked better than Sims. But they definitely have more talent around them.

Henderson has looked far better than Sims. He also plays next to Marcus Stroud, himself a high 1st-round pick and one of the best DT's in football.

Albert Haynesworth isn't better than Sims -- at best it's a push. Watch him play. He lacks drive and effort and is easily neutralized. He also doesn't like to show up for practice.

I'd MUCH rather have Sims than Haynesworth. We won't even mention the other guy much ballyhooed about that draft -- Wendell Bryant.

[whoman69]

when the last time we had a top 10 draft choice?! It's pretty tough to pick great players when on average you are drafting 18th or more in the draft each year.
Bullcrap, compare our drafts to that of the Steelers. They have drafted alot more talent than we have drafting in similar position over the years. Their problem is they can't afford to hang on to their talent. Historically our top 10 picks have not been good, but that's getting offpoint. We have drafted in the top 10 thrice during his career and he picked Derrick Thomas, Tony Gonzales and Ryan Sims. Any idiot can draft in the top 10, except the Cardinals and Bengals. He drafts tweeners, gives up too much to move up a few slots, cannot stockpile picks and has his best days on the 2nd day of the draft when the best talent is already gone.

[Inspector]

:rolleyes: That would probably be the end of my days as a Chiefs fan.:harumph:


I forget who said it, but I thought I heard that day has already passed.

[Inspector]

Absolutely not, everything seems to be set up to give us a two year window... the coaches seem to be signed through a two year window, and just the way they've made other moves (like make sure the entire O-line is signed through '05) make me think we've been planning this with a two year window all along.... and I've said that pretty much offseason. I don't think it's necessarily a bad move... as we've seen with the injuries we've had, way too many things can go wrong when you put all your eggs in one basket for one big run. That said, I think we're weeding out what we have now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see us spend a bit more money next year to make one big run at it...

"next year to make one big run at it..." NEXT YEAR? AGAIN? AAAHHHHHH!!!!!

I'm so ready for it to finally be this year, but seems like it is always next year instead.

BTW, you're probably right, dang it!!

[ck_IN]

DV and the rest of the wizkids shouldn't have been hired in the first place. It was simply a last gasp by CP to salvage his rep and stroke his ego.

When Marty left CP should've left with him. Then we could have looked for a vet GM to pair up with a young college HC or young NFL assistant and grew our own Chiefs coach, rather then recycle the ex-Rams coach.

That said I have no doubt that DV will be back should your scenario pass. Excuses will be made for his pets. His whipping boys will be sacrificed and season tickets will be sold as always.

CP will be here for as long as those afore mentioned tickets sell.

[NaptownChief]

Keep Carl as CEO, he is good on the business end of things


What is he good at? Not being able to sign first rounders in a reasonable time frame?

The poplularity of the NFL has exploded over the past decade and every franchise is making money hand over fist despite who is the GM.

[Ralphy Boy]

This might be more than you asked for but here is my long version:

Right now I'd do two things different, hiring a new head of college scouting (I don't even know who that currently is) and get a new defensive assistant of quality control to replace Darvin Wallis. And I would give the head of scouting as much, if not, more input than the coaching staff on draft day. They are the ones who are supposed to know these kids inside out.

Wallis has been here since 1989 and is the longest tenured coach on staff, his job directly from his bio is: In addition to assisting with the club’s defensive backs, he is also charged with the team’s defensive game analysis, where he compiles comprehensive weekly scouting reports on opposing offenses including a complete breakdown of their formations, schemes, concepts and tendencies based on hours of research and video study. Wallis also serves as the club’s defensive quality control coordinator where his duties include self-scouting, the organization of computer data, as well as the design and analysis of video cut-ups. He is also responsible for special research projects in addition to compiling the club’s comprehensive defensive playbook on an annual basis.
I got news for him, he isn't getting it done because our defense looks clueless at what the opposing offense is going to do. Maybe he just needs a change.

We have a good one in Lynn Stiles, VP of Football Operations/Player Personnel, and he wasn't exactly responsible for some of the lack of talent we currently have. He was here from 92 to 96 as VP of Player Personnel and we did a pretty decent job drafting in his tenure. Joe Horn, Woods, Dale Carter come to mind and he helped to bring in some of the veteran talent we had during our "glory" years. Sure he was here when we drafted Greg Hill & Trezelle Jenkins, but those picks just scream Marty.

He left and was with the Rams from 97 to 99 where he was VP of Football Operations, if memory serves they drafted pretty well in his tenure with Holt, Hakim, Bly, McCleon, Wistrom, Little, Pace, Ryan Tucker.
Our good to decent draft picks during his absence Gonzo (who by the way wasn't a top 10 pick, but #13) Lockett, Riley, Shehee, Favors, Ransom, Warfield, Tait, Cloud, Stills. I know a few of those are laughable, but I did say decent.
He came back in 2000 and granted his record since then hasn't been stellar but Biesel, Blaylock, Wilkerson, Pile, Harts, Sly, Wesley, Dante and Fujita all were good picks at their spots. Sly's injury not withstanding they all have made a contribution. And the jury is still out on Brett Williams, Mitchell, and Jordan Black and for that matter LJ.

It isn't his fault DV put more emphasis on Sims than he should have because of his relationship with Sims college coach Bunting and it isn't his fault that Eddie Freeman got hurt after a very strong rookie season. Nor is it his fault CP wanted an insurance policy in LJ for the Priest negotiations/injury.

Carl is an ass, but he isn't an idiot that some would make him out to be. Of course he wants to win, he talked DV out of retirement because he felt he had a better chance of winning with him than Gun. He then swallowed his pride to rehire Gun because he felt it was what gave us the best chance of winning. He's paid his coaching staff as much as anyone else's and he gets the players the coaches want. Do you replace him, hell no.

Do you remember what life was like before he got here? Apply the same rationale to DV and AS.

Does DV need to be more defensive minded, yes. But we wanted a high octane offense and we've had it. Does he know what it takes to win a championship, hell yes. He fired a guy he loved in G Rob because he knew he had to, okay he offered his resignation, but you get the point. He took back the guy he replaced and asked him to work for him. There aren't a lot of coaches that would do that. Is he bitter, probably a little about feeling like he had to do it, but he did it.

Everyone said it was scheme moreso than players, they'd just brought in 3 new FA's on D and drafted defense highly for the last 3 years. Just because things aren't going the way you want them to right now, doesn't mean that you scrap the whole thing.

[Ralphy Boy]

If that doesn't work, when DV's contract is up, I'd hire Nick Saban. His football philosophy has worked very well in college and he gets the most out of his players, it won't be long before he is a HC in the NFL and I wouldn't mind it happening here.

Of course it won't, Saunders would most likely be the choice of Hunt & CP because he's paid his dues.

[Deberg_1990]

If that doesn't work, when DV's contract is up, I'd hire Nick Saban. His football philosophy has worked very well in college and he gets the most out of his players, it won't be long before he is a HC in the NFL and I wouldn't mind it happening here.

Of course it won't, Saunders would most likely be the choice of Hunt & CP because he's paid his dues.

Saban would be an excellent choice! But didnt some other team try and lure him away from LSU after this past year? Saunders somewhat scares me as a HC because he already tried it before and failed....some guys should just remain as coordinators.....see Norv Turner and Dave Wannstadt.

[Ralphy Boy]

Saban would be an excellent choice! But didnt some other team try and lure him away from LSU after this past year? Saunders somewhat scares me as a HC because he already tried it before and failed....some guys should just remain as coordinators.....see Norv Turner and Dave Wannstadt.
Saban will make the move, it just has to be the right situation and time.

AS scares me too, but like I said he'd probably get it because he's paid his dues and I think that like when Marty left they hired Gun because he was the most like Marty in football philosophy. Same goes for AS compared to DV.

[Hammock Parties]

IMO the Chiefs desperately need to outsource their next head coaching job. I really don't want Saunders as the head coach here.

[tk13]

Then we could have looked for a vet GM to pair up with a young college HC or young NFL assistant and grew our own Chiefs coach, rather then recycle the ex-Rams coach.


No kidding. You're 100% right. I wish we had a coach with a proven track record of success...

[Chiefs Pantalones]

http://collegehumor.com/img/v/vote_bush.jpg

[KcMizzou]

http://collegehumor.com/img/v/vote_bush.jpg Heh... Collegehumor.com. That was a great uh.. article? I'd link it, but you've already gotten me in trouble once.

[Chiefs Pantalones]

http://collegehumor.com/img/w/wow_1.w492.jpg

I'm sorry, KcM, but this had to be posted.

[KcMizzou]

I'm sorry, KcM, but this had to be posted. Sorry? Heh... I'm not.
:drool:

[philfree]

I wouldn't show a two time Super Bowl HC the door. Those guys retire and then get inducted to the Hall Of Fame. IMO we just now got it right by bringing Gun back. Injuries have stalled the offense and the D is just gonna take longer to fix then we'd like. I'd like to see them all stay through 2006. I like this O and I liked Guns Ds of year past. I'd like to give them both a chance to become fully functional at the same time.

PhilFree :arrow:

[KcMizzou]

I wouldn't show a two time Super Bowl HC the door. Those guys retire and then get inducted to the Hall Of Fame. IMO we just now got it right by bringing Gun back. Injuries have stalled the offense and the D is just gonna take longer to fix then we'd like. I'd like to see them all stay through 2006. I like this O and I liked Guns Ds of year past. I'd like to give them both a chance to become fully functional at the same time.

PhilFree :arrow: Haven't you heard? We have worse talent on D than CMSU... our offense is filled with guys who couldn't make the roster of an arena league team... and our coach is an old bitter has-been! Please try to pay attention.

[philfree]

Haven't you heard? We have worse talent on D than CMSU... our offense is filled with guys who couldn't make the roster of an arena league team... and our coach is an old bitter has-been! Please try to pay attention.

Silly me! :)

PhilFree :arrow: