I hated Josh Freeman and still do.

That said, even a pick that dumb would have been better than taking Jackson. Hell, the only pick that's even in the same ballpark of dumbassery is the Raiders' selection of DHB, and even then they only had to pay him about half of what we paid Jackson, and he might still be a good WR once he gets real QB play.

Not unless they surgically insert magnets inside his iron clad hands.

What?

Are you smokin' crack again?

Tyson Jackson will probably be a ten year starter for us, and your lover Sanchez is gonna be a back up for the Raiders in 5 years.

too soon to say this. The knock on Raji wasnt his play, it was his intelligence level. He could be dumb enough to be out of the league in time. He missed a whole college year because he was dumb as ****! Jackson had no real knocks on him except that he didnt have a lot of pass rush moves to succeed as a 4-3 de.
I agree for a qb that has a good chance at making it. I dont see that in Freeman, in that case you have to take a player that you feel will help the most in the long term.

I have about 5% faith that Mr Freeman will be anything more than a career backup qb. Kyle Boller is the closest comparison I can make for why. And in many respects.

As I said before, I wanted to hold off on drafting a qb till 2010 and for us to shore up some other needs first.

The list of underclassmen qbs with such a low amount of experience is small and very very unimpressive.

FA
Jeff Garcia
Kendall Simmons

Draft
Orakpo
Mauluaga
ol ( I am actually happy with the Magee pick, as he could be a player for us.)
ol/bpa
ol/bpa

Draft Bradford in 2010.

that was basically my plan. Not the complete one, as that would take more time to post and I dont want to go back through my old posts to fill in the rest at this point.

It probably would have failed too, but at least we would have had a much improved defense and could protect a qb once we got him...

And as usual, your grasp of reality is very thin.

We'll see.

You're not reading correctly. I said that at #3, instead of taking Tyson Jackson, what was the alternative? Who would you have taken? Because the majority of people have recommended players that were taking much deeper into the first round.

And give me a ****ing break. Wallace Gilberry is a good alternative to Jackson? I have no idea who will be better between Jackson and Magee, but you're also suggesting the Chiefs should have passed on Jackson in favor of a rawer prospect who may or may not have been available in the third round? You list Gilberry and Magee as alternatives, and yet call me an idiot. Interesting.

Just as the same as you being convinced that Jackson will never make any kind of an impact because of how he's played as a rookie.

If you dont care what I think, why respond to my post?

Are you saying that if we could have drafted Kyle Boller or Ty Warren at 3, you would have taken Boller?

If so, I dont get it.

"thats all one needs to know"

Who cares if he was first or second team All American? He is a specialty player for the most part. He is a rare type of player to find and they dont grow on trees, players like him are some of the hardest to find and with about half the league going to 3-4 defenses, they will be valued higher and higher through the years. The more the 3-4 becomes popular, the more you will see teams taking 5-tecs with high picks because of how slim the pickings usually are for the position.

I doubt very highly that MS busts that bad.

we could have traded out of 3 and got way more value than just jackson at three thats my point

Oher, Harvin, Moreno, Davis, Crabtree - hell even Cushing would have been better choices than Tyson Jackson.

It's not interesting. You're dumb. You clearly don't watch the games. Gilberry has better numbers and more sacks than Jackson.

Jackson is a TWO DOWN PLAYER.

Only YOU and Scott Pioli can justify taking a TWO DOWN PLAYER at #3 overall.


I hope you're smarter than this in real life, i.e. your job, your relationships, etc. because you don't understand ANYTHING about a 3-4 defense.

For the last time, a 3-4, 5 tech defensive end is NOT AN IMPACT POSITION.

Tyson Jackson could be the greatest 5 tech of all time (which he won't) and no one would even notice.

First off, you're misconstruing what I said so I'll say it again:

A QB (you know, the guy that's most responsible for wins and losses on a football team?) is MORE VALUABLE than a 5-Tech, 3-4 defensive end.

Got it?

I'm not going to argue your "opinion" of Freeman vs. my "opinion" of Tyson Jackson.

The bottom line is that all things being equal, a QB is infinitely more valuable to ANY franchise than a 3-4, 5 tech DE.

Got it?

i dont buy the jackson to cleveland shit for a minute. youre telling me that it we didnt draft jackson that the browns wouldve drafted him at 5 instead?

I keep bringing this point up but nobody seems to care.

Jackson was drafted to be a three-down player, and early in the season, HE WAS. He was playing 3-tech on passing downs. Clearly, the Chiefs thought he was worth taking so high because they thought he could be a dominating inside pass rusher by moving inside in their nickel defense. They even put Glenn Dorsey ON THE BENCH because they thought Jackson could do a better job.

While this dispels the notion that Jackson was drafted to be only a two-down player, if actually works AGAINST the Chiefs in this case because Jackson's pass rush sucked so horribly early on they decided they'd put Dorsey back out there again.

But, for the true fans, I guess they can hope that next season Jackson will find a pass rush. At least that would somewhat justify his draft position. Better than being a two-down player, anyway.

Tyson Jackson, meet Aaron Curry.

I think the Seahawks would be MUCH better off with Maualuga, Matthews or Cushing.

jackson couldnt even rush in college with all-world talent around him, nor was he especially adept at stopping the run. in fact the only thing he was known for was how inconsistent he was, which remarkably has transferred into the pros. who woulda thunk it?

It's nothing more than rumor and gamesmanship.

It's the equivalent to Buffalo taking Willis McGahee because Drew Rosenhaus was smart enough to realize that if Buffalo saw Willis on the phone, that meant someone was about to take him.

No one even mentioned Jackson as a Top 10 pick, much less Top 5 until late Friday night before the draft, when Rick Gosselin's mock came out - and everyone went WTF then, and are asking the same question now.

Did he even play as a 3-tech in college or was it strictly LE?

If so, you would have to wonder WTF Pioli saw in him that he thought Jackson could be an inside pass rusher. And they even ADMITTED in their press conference after he was picked that they thought he could play that position.

And EVERY ONE OF THOSE PICKS WAS TAKEN 10-20+ PICKS LATER. JFC. You're mad because the Chiefs took a reach and then pushing for the Chiefs to reach for another player. That's not just the Chiefs that passed on these guys. That's tons of teams, many of which have very good scouting networks. That's a hindsight argument.

I do watch the games. Magee and Gilberry play a lot of snaps on third down on obvious passing downs. Dorsey and Jackson play most of the snaps on first and second down. You're advocating a 1-down player for a 2-down player.

Who cares about how noticeable the guy is. His job is to make other people on the field a lot better. That's not much different from what a nose tackle does, and that's easily the most important piece to a 3-4 defense.

If you line up a legit nose tackle in between Dorsey and Jackson, and Dorsey and Jackson play to their potential, there isn't a single team in the world that will be able to run on us. Explain to me again why that's not valuable. I agree that a 5-technique is a bit high for a top 3 pick. But again, this was easily the worst top of the class draft in ages.

100% agree there. I would have traded back for half of the normal value with NO HESITATION.

Please, dont talk down to me. I understand everything posted in this thread fully. Just because your opinion differs from mine, doesn't mean you have to try to be condescending to puff yourself up. Im sure you have the respect of most posters here and it is unnecessary. Save it for more deserving posters. There are plenty here to choose from.

I agree 100% that the QB position is far more valuable than a 5-tec. BUT if you dont feel that the available qbs can be the answer, you dont just take one to take one. That is what ultimately dooms franchises for five or more years.

"I'm not going to argue your "opinion" of Freeman vs. my "opinion" of Tyson Jackson."

Then this is a dead issue. What fun is it to say "you are wrong, but Im not gonna talk about why"

Ty Warrren is far more valuable to a team than Kyle Boller would be.

Got it?

I find that I am in these debates often and people hopefully arent thinking I am happy about the pick, just that is isnt as bad as some make it out to be.

Hold on.

So Harvin would have been a reach because of where he was actually drafted?

Is it possible that the teams that passed on him didn't need a WR?

That's like saying Brady Quinn or Aaron Rodgers would have been a reach in the Top 10 of their respective draft classes.

All it takes is one team to make a stupid pick, followed by others drafting for need, and you have a guy sitting in the green room way longer than necessary.

I just hope we dont burn a couple first round picks on tight ends in the coming years like the Pats did...

DUDE!

The VERY first thing I said was "NO OFFENSE".

Go back and read it.

No, No, NO! You have think it's was a terrible decision and think it rihgt now or you're a 'true fan'.

PhilFree:arrow

That's scary. This is scarier:

The last three years of NE drafting.

http://i48.tinypic.com/vsmnet.jpg


26 selections, and they hit on two. And one is a ****ing kicker. (Mayo the other)

**** me look at all the Pro bowlers.....

agree 100%



DUDE

I know, but then you went on with a whole post with a condescending tone so I felt the need to throw a curve ball in response.

I was trying to have a little fun...

Mike Richardson, Ryan O'Failaghan and Justin Rogers are all Chiefs.

And shitty ones.

Pioli sure can draft a kicker though!

I wouldnt go so far as to say they hit on only two.

There are a few decent selections there, but it is mostly a massive fail.

I posted a list of the drafted players from Atlanta and Chicago from the timespans that our director of college scouting (Phil Emery) was in charge of the draft in and it is a equally as "impressive" of a list.

I have faith that they will do much better in the future, but that is just basically unhealthy denial caused by my longtime love of this team that is deeply rooted.

At times I feel like what an abused wife probably feels like when she defends her abuser husband to her friends. Denial caused by pain.

a) The next time someone, anyone runs in to Dick Curl, please punch him in the mouth for claiming that Chiefs fans are "smart and know the game" on Hard Knocks. Thx!

b) Even if your absurd scenario were to come to pass, let me break down the Quarterback food chain for you:

Sanchez being a back up for the Faid = Matt Cassel out of a ****ing job, completely unemployable, and no longer a player in the NFL.

I dont think maroney is as bad as people suggest. Mayne he hasnt lived up to his potential, but he isnt a bust.

And also maryweather is a pretty good safety.

Even so, 4 out of 26 is a bit alarming. We got 4 in 1 draft.(albert, flowers, charles, carr?)

What?

Maroney has been a terrible first round selection.

Debatable. He comes from a pass first team who in my limited viewing experience rotates the backfield and runs out of the shotgun alot.

Hes ran pretty well this season

Lol i just made an acct on patsfans.com with the username BernardPollard and peoplr are already asking for the banhammer.

:clap:ROFL

I didnt even say anything to piss them off either. I jist said they are lucky to watch a good team and that randy needed more effort.

Sore taints around those parts these days I bet.

Tell them how much you like Darrell Revis; they will LOVE YOU for it!

What?

Maroney has 2,700 TOTAL YARDS in FOUR seasons.

That's not even 700 yards PER YEAR.

And you think THAT"S worth a first round pick?

LMAO

As i said before, he comes from a pass first team, who uses multiple runningbacks. Marion barber has around the same numbers the past few years.

What? Seriously, why do you even try to debate this shit?

Barber has 4,440 yards during that same time frame and 46 TD's.

Maroney has 2,700 yards during the same period and has 26 TD's.

Barber was a fourth rounder to boot.

But go ahead - continue to prove that you don't know what the **** you're talking about in each and every post.

But Pioli is a GOD! Maroney in the first......ROFL

Don't worry guys, I have a really good feeling that Scott is going to draft us an awesome Defensive Tackle this year.

We have been neglecting that position on draft day for far too long.

Jesus SNR, do you own a time machine?

Ok ill do that, and you continue to be a dick when im trying to have a civil conversation.

Barber is considered around the league as one of the best rbs. Thats why i used him as an example. They both have had the same number of carries(166) this year.

Barber averages 4.3 a touch, maroney 3.9. Not a great difference. Maroney has 8 tds to barbers 4. Im not saying that hes in the same class as barber because he isnt, but maroney certainly isnt a bust. Ive watched the pats games that i can carefully, and maroney runs HARD.

Relax, ya ass.

Maroney is a BUST, plain and simple.

When you draft a RB in the first round, you expect more out him than 700 yards in total production per season.

The mere fact that you don't understand further proves that you're a moron of the nth degree.

Anyone who thinks Maroney has remotely lived up to his draft slot is high. Maroney is producing less than guys taken 5 rounds later, horrid pick plain and simple. For a RB to justify 1st round he has to be a stud.

The Nth degree huh?

He averages 4.2 for his career, so its not like hes getting 300 carries a season.
4.2 isnt great, but it isnt a bad average. I guess if you want 5+ out of a 1st round back you could qualify him as a bust, but hes more of an lj mold. For goal line situations and what not, which hes been pretty good at.

Why is the term hindsight being used in this thread?

All of those thoughts were expressed months ago, that isn't hindsight of anything that's foresight, amusing that the people who took the hardest beating were correct...

You know what Maroney is really good at? getting injured.

I guess i can see where you guys are coming from.

I qualify a bust as being a bad player that doesnt produce.

You guys i believe qualify a bust as a player that doesnt justify the spot where he was taken. Which is fair.

While maroney hasnt been a superstud, with the number of touches hes got, hes been a pretty good player.

He got taken in front of Jones-Drew that alone makes the pick an epic fail.

That happens to every team every year.

Would YOU take a 5'6 runningback?

Well that 5'6 RB weighs about 220lbs so it's a bit different.

Hes definitely better than maroney but taking a 5'6 runningback in the first rd when the NFL is only getting bigger isnt exactly a "smart" pick.

Mecca didn't say the Jones-Drew deserved to be taken in the first.

Just that Maroney was taken before Jones-Drew.

Why do so many people twist words around here?

It wasnt intended. I just meant that taking jones drew over any normal sized rb is usually frowned upon.

I think I heard a light go on in there somewhere.

Lets see if it stays on.

Zing.

And to think i almost voted for you. :mad:

Taking 5 tech Dends in the top 5 is frowned upon too but hey Patriot way right?

No, it's the Chiefs Way.

C'mon, Dude!

Yes....Garaunteed to win a Superbowl once every 60 years!

Cant really argue with you there.

Do you think he wouldve been there in the 2nd if we still had our pick?

You're being generous.

Who Jackson? No but I don't think it's something to fret about. Like I said before if 5 tech was such a damn important position Canty and Olshansky combined make less than Jackson...think about that.

As of today we literally could have taken almost anyone else and been better off. **** Hakeem Nicks has been better, fathom that.

yeah, but man, take a step back and realize you are criticizing a dlinemen for his rookie year. That really isnt fair and Im sure you have to know that. Its as bad as when people say that Sanchez is a bust because he had a couple bad games.

...dlinemen take time and are almost never good right out of the gates. I have to say that Raji does seem to be the anomaly in that regard though. He has been impressive in the games I have watched.

The pick didn't carry optimum value in most peoples eyes, but to try to attempt to judge him this early is not very inspiring...

I'm critiquing a Dlineman who's absolute highest upside isn't that high, it isn't like we drafted Mario Williams.

Yeah, but Man, take a step back and realize that you're talking about a 5-tech, 3-4 defensive end.

He could be the GREATEST 5-TECH, EVAR!

And no one would even know.

It's a ****ing stupid position to draft with the number 3 overall pick.

Do you guys ever get bored of this?

Just popping in to ask. (Not to judge.)

I'd just think at some point, you'd get worn the hell out.

Stop judging me, Man!

LMAO

To answer your question: Nah.

You're a goddamn trooper.

I don't have it in me to argue that long, or that hard...

Which explains the divorce....

I was probably a lawyer in another life...

Happy Holidays, Brotha!

to be honest, nobody knows what his ceiling is.

As fans that haven't been in the weight-room with him, or running with him and can hear how he responds to situations, can't see how he interacts with teammates in the locker room or on the sidelines during games, in the film room... etc...it is fairly impossible to see what his ceiling really is.

As a player, he can be the type of guy that demands the double and makes the job of the SS and LILB and LOLBs jobs easier. If we add a quality pass rusher this offseason to play lolb, he should excel because of the dirty work being put in. He is a much better player at this point than he was in the first few games of the year and that shows me he is putting in the work to get better and that is all any of us can ask at this point.

He and Dorsey keyed a multiple championship squad in college. I am hoping that they both display character traits that will start to shine in coming years and that these guys behind the curtain aren't as clueless as some of the possible signs could be pointing to.

I love this team and still have hope that a long offseason under the same systems and with some hopefully bolstered talent to the roster can get us going in the right direction.

Same to you man. Merry Christmas. :toast:

Yes, we DO!

He's not a pass rusher. He's a TWO-DOWN player. His job is to absorb blockers.

If he doesn't absorb blockers and allows them to block downfield, he sucks ass.

If he absorbs blockers, the linebackers and safeties make the tackles.

Either way, no one will ever notice his presence unless he ****s up.

This.

here in lies the falsehood of the position though.

The Dlinemen are as responsible for the success of the rest of the defense as the oline is responsible for the success of the rest of the offense.

Not saying he is Seymour, but as I have said a few times...RS wasnt supposed to go any higher than 12 in that draft (and that was the highest I could find him going out of any of the mocks, it was Kipers mock, there were some mocks with him going in the top of the second) and the Pats took him at 6 and I would say that he showed to be well worth the pick.

Very few football fans give credit to the olinemen for opening holes for the running back. All they say is how great the running back is and whatnot. Only the die hards respect the value the linemen gives to the team and give credit where it is due. As much of an impact an olinemen gives to the pass protection and the running game, the dlinemen make it so that all the linebacker has to do is beat a TE or BR to get to the QB and thus looking like the true diffencemaker. If the 5-tec wasnt effectively holding down two olinemen the linebacker would have to beat a tackle and a tightend or back to get to the qb. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

5-tecs will start to go higher and higher in coming years, the more the 3-4 becomes in vogue, the more teams will need protypical 5-tecs and those monsters dont exactly grow on trees. 3rd overall will ALWAYS be high for one, but 5-tecs taken in the top 10 will be a normal occurrence. It just happens that we had a top pick in a year where all the top talent had huge ?s and was at a time when our team desperately needed to come out of the pick with something, if a player had a significant chance at busting he was likely disqualified because of how talent laden we were and how much we need. I would rather have a very solid contributer five or six years from now, rather than a bust that is long gone like a lot of our recent picks.

those are his responsibilities, not his ceiling.

Just because he is a two down player right now, doesnt mean he is permanently that. Maybe the team is using this year to evaluate its other dlinemen as well as him and sees that Gillberry is pretty talented as a pass rusher, thus helping us as a team.

Some 5-tecs have 2-3 sacks per year...some have 6-8 about every year. Some average 25 tackles and some average 45-60. Some simply absorb blockers and some "demand" the double team. Some are smart enough to slide down the line to stop screens and stretch plays, some dont ever learn to read it properly.

nobody knows what his ceiling is at this point because he wont reach it for a couple years.

If he doesnt come out next year like a much improved player, then we should seriously worry, but in his rookie year you cant expect much.

Its like Dorsey last year and this, he got pushed around constantly last year and this year is much much stouter.

Put a real Nose guard next to him and some real backers behind him and he will start to look a lot more like what we want to see I think.

time will tell

We were going to overpay no matter what.

Does anyone dispute that the Nose Tackle is the most important player on defense?

Then explain why they're paid less, in many cases, than the best 5-techniques?

Dude, your entire post is speculation.

In 2005, people around here saw Derrick Johnson as a complete defensive player. Someone who could push the Chiefs to the next level defensively, much like your hope for Tyson Jackson. Every one of those people ignored the scouting reports.

Tyson Jackson is what he is: He's a two down, 5 tech, 3-4 DE. He's not a pass rusher, he's not a dominant player. He's just a guy.

He'll NEVER justify his draft position.

EVER.