Can't be excited just yet. We have to wait for the reports on Baldwin and Poe wreaking havoc in shorts before that can happen. It happens to me every year.

:sulk:

Smith was talking up Baldwin on 810 Friday afternoon.

Excitement growing.... LMAO

So we hire a guy, who by all reports, is the best HC we've had in KC since Marty, is an offensive guru etc, and we immediately want him to come in a change what he's done to make him so successful?

I have no idea why I would think a guy who's ran a system for 10 plus years would come in and implement a similar system. I'm crazy I guess.

I wouldn't throw stones there pal, considering who you wanted this offseason.

I think one thing that made him successful was his ability to foresee where the league was headed and made adjustments to his coaching philosophy when he became a head coach. He is just doing that again, IMO.

I agree. I like what we're hearing but I don't think it's a major overhaul in his system, I think he's adding wrinkles.

Or atleast thats what I hope.

We hired an offensive guru who throws the ball around the yard. Thats what I forsee him bringing.

I am enjoying the mystery of it, to be honest. I, too, think it will be wrinkles added on top of his bread and butter, but who can say for sure.

I see a guy who isn't pinned down and committed to one thing. All these assistant coaches and specialists tell me he is adapting his game or at least tweaking it to fit his players.

When was the last time we had a coach willing to do that?

Al Saunders....

I understand what you're saying. Keep in mind that Mike Shanahan has moved to a mostly pistol offense and Jon Gruden has said that if he made a comeback, he would want to run the spread.

I look at the moves they've made and there are just too many players and coaches built for this offense to believe this is more than just a wrinkle. Starting with the QBs. It's still interesting to me that they chose two QBs who don't have Kaepernick speed. Chris Ault swears up and down that this offense can be run without elite QB speed and I believe him.

Now, keep in mind that the 49ers only ran about 30% of their plays out of the pistol (54% in the postseason), so from that standpoint, yeah it's kind of a wrinkle. But I have a feeling you'll see more sets out of it than you might think.

Yes, Shanahan did and look what happened to RGIII.

I think we'll run the pistol, but I also think we'll run Reid's traditional offense out of it with a lotta spread concepts incorporated.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/me...acepalming.gif

Like it's been said, ad nausem, it's not like he's going to completely revamp his entire offensive system. You have this incredibly myopic conceptualization of what Reid can/will/must do with his offense based on historical perspective.

"He's ate Cheerios everyday for the past ten years. There is no freakin' way he's going to pick up a bowl of Wheaties and try it! No freakin' way!"

It's called adaptation. And while we haven't seen what Reid's KC offense is ultimately going to manifest as on the field on a game day situation, one could make the assumption that it will be a slightly different offense based on the hirings of Ault and Childress as "spread/pistol" consultants.

The spread and pistol have become prevalent at the NFL level after proving to be successful at the college level over the past ten years. (I still remember all the "Pro Style Set" guys squealing about "spread monkeys" and how that would never work on the NFL level. Short sighted imbeciles.) Reid's Lavell Edwards West Coast offensive system that he's employed isn't that far off from a Meyer/Ault type of spread/pistol in it's functional application, so taking that next step isn't really much of a reach.

That's because he's only practiced with Baldwin. He needs to wait until the games.

I for one applaud Reid if he's changing his ideas with his new team.

Clearly he understands that growing stale is the worst thing you can do if you're a head coach in this league, and now that he has a new team this was the perfect opportunity to adapt and evolve with the rest of the league.

Oh I like what we're hearing about the moves their making in terms of the offense and I think they'll add some good substance to the offense.

My main speaking of not changing was in regards to someone saying he's going to turn into a run first type coach.

I see a bunch of option plays being utilized and I doubt that we will run it as much as RGIII did. They did more option running than anything.

If they run a screen while executing a run play and have Smith key on the main defensive player (most times the DE or OLB on whichever side you are executing) and decide which play will gain more yards, it will keep Smith from hitting the turf too frequently.

We will have to run Smith occasionally to keep the defense honest, but you can run the pistol option without running your QB too frequently.

That's what intrigues me about this season. Reid brought in two QBs who have been very successful running read option, but one is not very mobile and the other (Smith) is mobile enough, but not Kaepernick mobile. The reason RGIII gets hurt isn't what you're fearing (running QB being exposed to DEs). It's that they run him a LOT. I don't see the Chiefs doing that nearly as much with Smith.

There's a lot of directions. It's possible Reid is trying to run the "Gulf Coast Offense." Sean Payton is a WCO guy who created a spread out version of a WCO and Coryell offense. Which might explain bringing in Chase Daniel. Which scares me a bit because Smith is clearly not Drew Brees and I don't think it gets the best out of Jamaal Charles. I still believe the reason they thought Smith was different was his ability to run the read option. I bet the offense will feel more like a Saints/49ers hybrid than it does an Eagles offense with some wrinkles.

You can run the pistol without any designed QB runs.

Maybe I don't know the Eagles offense very well. Can you explain the Lavell Edwards WCO?

If we run the option, it will likely be 2 or 3 times per game. Like you said, we won't do it very much with Smith.

I think they were more concerned or more interested in his ability to throw the ball but thats just me.

Add to that the fact that he's probably a concussion away from potentially being a vegetable and I don't think they'll run him too awful much.

Sorry for the irritation. we should have used protection
Posted via Mobile Device

I'll be surprised, hell, shocked, if they run the run the option an average of even once per game.

Well, that puts the Kyle Williams bullshit to bed.

We will see. I still think you're underestimating how tremendous the pistol offense is as a run offense, especially with the way Reid loves to use his RBs. And maybe overestimating the danger of the offense, where the main danger is for a QB that loves to run. Really the only danger is past the line of scrimmage.

I mean, even the 49ers run it 1/3 of the time so you're right, it's more of a wrinkle. But I don't think we run it 2 or 3 times. I could see us running it a decent number of times and that a lot of those plays out of that package will turn into a run option. Even though Reid doesn't love to run the ball, with his love for multi-dimensional fullbacks and tight ends, this offense fits beautifully into his overall scheme.

Not really.

It's been posted before, and the idiots that want to believe that Smith is something more than a mediocre game manager still want to place all the blame on Williams.

Cosell nailed good points, but to ignore the overall article is dumb -- he also said Smith did do those things to get them into the NFCCG the previous week.

I like the sudden death feel of football games -- one false move could ruin chances.

But to assume AS can't do it at that level by pointing at the one game there is just kind of stupid.

That'd be the same as saying Kaep isn't good enough at that level.

I think age/experience has some bearing, but the sample size is too small in both cases imo.

AS is the best QB in a chiefs uni since 2006 with Trent. not sure why folks are so negative about that. Even if he does win it all here, he's still just a stepping stone to a more viable solution in the future because of his age.

Lavell Edwards, the former coach at Brigham Young, was one of, if not the progenitor of the "west coast" type of system which featured a pronged attack based on a focus on pass first, drop back offense with multiple reads out of a pro style set which utilizes the tight end and full back with regularity.

His coaching tree includes Andy Reid, Mike Holgrem, Brian Billick, Norm Chow, Steve Sarkisian, Hal Mumme, Kyle Wittingham, Mike Leach, etc.

It's something that followed him his entire career. Alex Smith is a nice guy and you want him to do well, because he works hard and cares about the craft. But he might be too nice of a guy. You want a little bit of edge. I remember on Sirius NFL Radio, they all the time used to question if he had that edge to lead the team in the huddle late in the game. That's the part that Smith's missing and I don't think that's coachable. He's not going to be a risk-taker and you have to be confident in taking risks, especially in pressure situations.

I loves me some "nice guy"/Cassel!

Yeah, that makes sense. Which is why I don't understand why people think the Chiefs won't run plenty of read option / pistol. Reid loves tight ends and fullbacks, and this allows you to take the same personnel and run something totally different and unexpected. We definitely have the guys to do it very well and there's obviously interest in the coaching staff to test it.

I don't think the read option, in terms of the QB riding a back into the hole and pulling it or giving it, has a place in the NFL, unless you have a dynamic QB.

Just want to clarify zilla, you're talking about the QB read option in terms of this correct? Putting the football into the gut of a RB at the mesh point, riding him with teh ball in the "basket" until the defender forces you to make the decision of keeping or pulling?

Or Jerome Bettis as your RB

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Heres a good video of the 9ers running the read option out of the shotgun. Sorry for the music.

Here's the thing, though. In a conventional offense, Smith holds on to the ball too long because he doesn't take risks. He's going to get popped in the pocket or when he scrambles off.

At least with a read option, Smith is the one dictating who runs the ball and he only keeps it for a run if he really likes what he sees. So the question is, is he any more at risk of injury versus a conventional offense? If the Chiefs run the read option smartly, sprinkle it in in the right places, are smart about running the right misdirections/bluffs, and incorporate a heavy dose of the run option, I don't see how Smith is any more of an injury risk than if he was asked to run a pocket offense.

The personnel the Chiefs currently have are damn near perfect for the system that Reid has run in the past and Smith brings in the experience of a very successful spread system QB under Urban Meyer in college. Couple that with the hiring of Chris Ault as a team consultant for the pistol and Brad Childress as the spread guy, you've got a very high level mix of guys who've been very successful in terms of their specific offenses.

Personally, I think you are going to see some pretty cool shit out of the Chiefs offensively this next season. This union of minds/coaches/players might actually end up being a paradigm shift in terms of NFL offensive conceptualizations, much in the same way as how Walsh's "West Coast" system was viewed. The potential is there anyway.

At the very minimum, it sure as shit isn't going to be Brian Daboll's play calling.

While that is true, we've been hearing about how Reid is prodding him to take more risks.

I'm just of the opinion that the read option won't be a long term success in the NFL due to the fact that unblocked defenders are going to start attacking the mesh point and not the specific player.

Well put. Time will tell.

That is exactly what Alex Smith ran under Urban Meyer at Utah, who's "Read Option Spread" has been the most successful college system over the past ten years.

You are so "black or white" "either or" it's painful.

I seriously doubt that Reid scraps his entire system and moves to a read option only system. However, it's obvious that he's going to implement some changes to his Edwards West Coast system. Signing Smith. Hiring Childress and Ault. Drafting Fisher, Davis, Kelce, Wilson. All speak to a melding of old and new in terms of a base Edwards West Coast offense with spread/pistol influences.

Yeah, if we want to run the read option 2 or 3 times per game, thats fine.

But I just dont' see it becoming a staple of any offense Reid runs here in KC.

I think the Chiefs run the Swedish Chef offense this season.

Dum dum duppy doo.

Thats alos with any of these other teams running the read option. I view it as a wildcat type fad in the NFL in that teams are/will figure out how to stop it.

What makes a Chiefs' read option different is the element of surprise. You can run the pistol with a non-read option and throw it in there maybe 1-2 times a quarter for the element of surprise. I could see the Chiefs running a lot of non-read pistol.

I don't agree with your second point a bout attacking the mesh point. The best defense is to stay at home. The pistol has become sophisticated enough that there are several ways to expose defenses that over pursue at the mesh point. The QB risk is what he does if he keeps the ball to run past the line of scrimmage. In fact, this is a place where I think the NFL is outdated. They think you can take out the QB in the backfield but that's not the way to beat this offense.

Alex Smith can sell this shit all day long. Ran the spread better than any QB Meyer has worked with since. Guy was 23-1 starting at Utah.

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With Reid's WC offense adding some pistol/spread wrinkles coupled with Charles and Bowe and that offensive line, backed by that defense? Smith is going to kick some serious ass this next year.

11-5 and AFC West Champions.

You are still thinking "either/or." It's most likely going to be a meld of systems, a combination of the various offensive schemes that results in a somewhat new offense that has it's base/overall concept in the West Coast style but incorporates the read option spread and pistol sets as well.

The Utah Pass has been around since the dawn of time in college football, but I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that people will be looking at as a completely new concept when the Chiefs chuck that sucker out three or four times a game this next season. Smith, Charles and Davis are going to ream sonsabitches with that.

This goes back to the playing to Smith's strengths thing. Reid was having him push the envelope in OTA's to see just what Smith was capable of doing. That is good coaching IMO, and doesn't necessarily mean they are going to ask Smith to take a lot of risks come September.

Full homer mode engaged.

we need Avery to bring something to the party. Our receivers are weak, especially in the speed dept.

well, that's a valid point, but you don't make it in college just being a nice guy, let alone the NFL.

AS had Mike Nolan his first 3 seasons & then Singletary the next three. I believe this had more to do with your perception of AS than his nice smile. Those two coaches were among the worst offensive minds I have ever seen at the NFL level.

Buzz, the only reason I, and some others, have discussed that Giants game specicallyn is the perseption by most that Alex Smith was two muffed punts away from leading the 9 ers to a SB.

Cosell dispells that myth with this article.

But the reason that some of us don't like the trade for Smith is that the Giants game is a microcosm of Smith's last two seasons.

That Saints game was an abberation.

Smith has consistently left big plays on the field, settling for checkdowns or taking sacks.

Those plays are what separates medicocre game manager fron franchise QB, and are the reason that Harbaugh made the switch to Kapernick.

You have to have those plays in the playoffs to have any shot at a championship.

Avery and Wylie (and even Baldwin) all have 4.4 speed and should help, but the Edwards West Coast/Meyers read option spread/Ault pistol is really focused on the short and intermediary mismatches created by opening up a multitude of offensive options in those areas. This opens up the downfield pass, and you obviously need someone to be able to run it, but it isn't the focus of the offense.

It's why you'll see multi-back, multi-tight end sets, fullbacks splitting wide and a whole shit ton of Dwayne Bowe.

I think it's going to be pretty cool.

You can slow play it, but that leaves you open to more problems. The play is designed really to be a system that is run by a team who is physically less demanding than the opposition and really allows you to make the read off the defender.

I don't really think you can slow play it in the NFL because guys are just too fast and athletic and can get by you. For instance, if you slow play with Charles he's going to be past you. I just don't think the way to beat it is to read and react but to attack it and it seems teams are thinking the same as IIRC there were articles about teams stating it.

reasonable.

I'm going to wait see. I think Reid is going to help AS become better because of his familiarity with him and because his WCO style fits AS's more productive side.

FTR- I have never claimed AS is elite yadayada, just that he is a huge improvement for the team. Also, I think the term "game manager" is being tossed around this forum quite a bit -- Tom Brady is a game manager -- Peyton, the game has evolved into a HC/OC piloting the QB on the field via the speaker in helmet. It's been this way since Walsh established it -- that style, along with the WCO system has become the norm. So, they are all pretty much game managers, just following the orders of the voice in the helmet.

Not that you overuse it, but it seems a bit of the go to here lately.

Does anyone factor in the fact that the 49ers had the most dominant run game in football with Alex Smith as a reason to why he never had to pass for many yards? Or does that just go out the window?
lol, your simpleness, amuses me.
NO. Davis was constantly double teamed last year. But, yes, even though with Alex Smith, Vernon Davis caught 5 tds, with Kaepernick. ONE!!!!!
All qbs take hits. How many times after a throw have you seen qbs get pushed down. This is irrelevant.
Off the top of your head, who was the second rounder drafted this year at 34, and who made the pick? Once the pick is made, its no longer valuable.
This is a good call. Also, people who question Alexs huddle demeanor. Lets forget about the Saints game. Although, alex smith had to do that twice, AND DID. Lets talk about the philly game that year on the road. Lets talk about the Detroit game on the road. Alex Smith played like ABSOLUTE crap for the majority of that game. But, in crunch time, he drove the team down and then threw the game winning td, on 4th down to win it. Im not sure where people get this Alex Smith doesn't have a huddle presence, and it seems like im propping Alex Smith up, and Im not. Hes not Aaron Rodgers, hes not Drew Brees, or Tom Brady, but when the game is on the line, he is pretty damn clutch. And he was in the NFCCG, only those who have forgotten what he did in that game, and are box score whores, forget.

Do you know what is never talked about in reference to Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Peyton Manning. They have run the same System their entire Careers. People don't want to hear that, but that helps. Consistency is key to this thing. The systems with San Francisco, and KC are close enough in the basic structure, that it wont be that different for Alex Smith to run. I think that is also going to help him. Might take a little bit to adjust to the personnel in receivers, as in, San Francisco his best player was a tight end, but now its a Receiver, but I don't expect a huge drop off in consistency.....

Charles beats Gore in every category that matters.

Most of that was due to having no confidence in the QB.

Just saying.

Alex Dilfer used what he had to achieve what he did.

It is what it is.

We could also talk about the Bengals game 2 years ago where he looked like a sack of smashed @ssholes until the 4th quarter and then his defense helped bail him out.

This is what worries me. He has that Favre "slow starter" problem and doesn't have that Favre magic afterwards...

I've never seen "game manager" as a negative, and it goes further back than ~alsh.

Some of the top QBs to have played the game, including Bartt Starr and Troy Aikman, and Lenny Dawson were game managers.

Those guys, however, were franchise QBs.

Alex Smith is just mediocre, albeit efficient.

You know why Brady, Rodgers and Manning have run the same system their entire careers? Because they excelled at it the moment they set foot on the field.

That kind of system consistency is more of a result of success, rather than a reason for it.

Hence you generally only see "x number of coordinators/systems" in a discussion when you're talking about a quarterback that just isn't that good to begin with.

incorrect. That game SHOULD of been over, if Jim Harbaugh had done that correctly. Alex Smith actually threw a touchdown to Michael crabtree, the Ref INCORRECTLY said Michael Crabtree had stepped out of bounds, and became an ineligible receiver. Jim Harbaugh, did not challenge it, and settled for a field goal. The Bengals, have a very good defense. That was on the road. And, when you have an elite defense, it helps to bail you out.
I concur completely. Perhaps Andy Reid, can get more out of Alex Smith. I do not know if he can. I am optimistic, just because I know the guy wants to be better. errr, or at least im hoping he gets better.

Uh, there is no way shape or form that you can say that Alex ran Jim Harbaughs, or Greg Romans system unsuccessfully. He ran it ultra efficiently. Just not ultra flashy......

The point being, that the teams that seem to win, and win consistently, have that stability. I agree, those three are special talents, of which alex smith is not, but to take it as having that consistency, combined with the best front offices in football, the best drafting teams in football, is no coincidence.

You're defending Alex Smith in a game that was literally won by his defense.

The final score was 13-8, 49ers.

That game is a PERFECT example of what happens to your Alex Smith led offense when the running game goes tits up.

You are brain dead, son.

I think every QB has to be a little bit of a dickhead to get by. Alex Smith strikes me as a guy who isn't that.

Even Peyton Manning. Seems like a nice guy, but is an absolute dick when his teammates screw up.

Absofreakinglutely. Andy loves him some big recievers, and with our TEs, and Bowe, I think even Baldwin can flourish in this offense. People talk about him being just being a TE and I can see him being almost a hybrid TE/WR type guy in this offense. I think it will be all about YACs in this O.

ya, the game has always been in the full offensive control of coaches. Paul Brown & Sid Gilman are part of the discussion for obvious reasons.. I chose to mention Walsh because his system is closely related to Reid's via Mike Holmgren. Reid got the Philly job after helping shape the offensive system at GB.

The thing about Smith is that he can throw on the run pretty good.

I don't think Baldwin will flourish in any offense. Sorry, I think the guy is garbage.

Under the circumstances, 2-14 and the worst team in the league, I understand realistically that they aren't going to make the playoffs unless they are very lucky. 8-8 would be a good first season under the new regime, followed by playoffs in the second year.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I pretty much ONLY talk football here.

Halfway competent quarterback play and last year's team wins at least 5 games. So with as much hype as the moves this offseason have received, I have to say I'd be pretty disappointed with an 8-win effort. They face a weak schedule in a weak division. There's no reason they shouldn't at least be in the hunt for a wild card.

I think it's going to be largely Andy Reid's scheme, but with wrinkles from Ault.

Love that Reid is adapting to the NFL today.

I wanted Tyler Wilson, but I wasn't throwing a shit storm because we didn't take him 1st overall.

This team won seven games in 2011 without Jamaal Charles, Eric Berry and Tony Moeaki, all key contributors to their 2010 record of 10-6. They were mired in controversy, fired their head coach and grabbed a QB off the scrap heap to help them win two out of their three final game (and said QB signed as a backup the following season).

As I've said all offseason, 10 wins, IMO, is their floor. Anything else, barring major injury, will be a disappointment.

Wait, so a QB who's running is going to take the same hits as a guy who stays in the pocket?

I dont' think thats irrelevant. But carry on.

Trent Green had the most dominant running game in football too.

He still managed to throw for 4K.

And did so before the pass-happy, QB-dependent era we're in now.

You talk about the Bengals, who were playing at home, like they didn't make the Playoffs. You are also talking about what week 3 of the season? A win, is a win, is a win. I guess because Aaron Rodgers looked like shit when he lost to the Chiefs during their 15-1 season, hes garbage.......

Do you think before you post? Its rhetorical by the way.

I think every single person inside the Chiefs organization would agree with you.
Depends on the Hit. When you are running with the ball, as a qb, you have the option to slide anytime you want. If you get blindsided by being in the pocket, tell me which hurts worse. Don't forget, qbs can slide anytime while running.
I think you left out something here......like, NO DEFENSE?
See above.

This makes no sense. Of course if you get blindsided, it's a hit, but having the guy run the option, you aren't going to avoid him taking more hits than him standing in the pocket. Don't forget, QB's can also give themselves up in the pocket!!

That makes no sense to think otherwise.

I have no idea what we are arguing about here. Im not saying that if Alex runs more he is going to take less hits. Im saying that you can get injured the same way, and on most passing plays, the qb ends up in the dirt anyways. So, I don't think it really matters. Of course if he is running the ball on the option, his chances go up. But, I also think when running the ball, you have a better chance to protect yourself, or give yourself up, rather than if you are in the pocket, and get destroyed from your blind side.

Running QB's are going to take more hits than pocket Qb's and even those small hits will add up.

I think there is some good in Smith running the option potentially, but I also think with the concussion concern he doesn't need to be taking that many hits.

different types of running

If it's controlled and 'get what you can get' and then get down or out of bounds then it isn't nearly as dangerous.

Rodgers runs but it's not anything like Vick running

the option pitch isn't like the college ... QB only tries to get the defense to step up not fully commit so they don't get drilled each time.