The weird push between sides of fans puzzles me, "RB is like the 5th highest need on the team" when you just finished like 28th in rushing you aren't gonna sell that bag to me.

Epenesa just screams "solid, maybe not great,player" which is fine at 32. I don't know if thats the route i'd go, but at the back end of the round, you probably need to be looking at hitting doubles instead of swinging for the fence.

Also there seems to be some increasing thought that rookies this year are going to do nothing because most rookies aren't good anyway and now you are going to have the strange offseason.

Maybe early in the year, but those that still get playing time I think can start to hit their stride late in the season.

Alright, but if that’s the answer, why are NFL teams reportedly not concerned at all and it isn’t expected to affect anybody’s draft stock? If this were a legitimate possibility, you wouldn’t think that would be the case.

Also, why aren’t we hearing all of the other names? I think that’s strange as well.

Side note: there was definitely a spike. That’s been reported by multiple guys in the know.

Tony Pauline for example was one of them. He’s the one that gave that excuse and basically said it’s much ado about nothing. He’s well connected and knows his shit.

The patron saint of 'good, not great' players - Grant Wistrom.

Okafor and possibly K-Pass are gone next season and Epenesa would provide a pretty significant upgrade on both.

What really surprised me about Okafor was how light he played. He was a lot more agile than I expected him to be but he was also WAY easier to blow off the ball than I'd hoped. He was essentially a finesse player and I think part of our improved run defense came from his absence. He was pretty shitty against the run.

So you take a guy like Epenesa, who should be an outstanding run defender, and give him an 8-10 sack potential w/ variety of power moves that play better on the strong side than Okafor - he's a real nice bookend.

I think I'd be a pretty damn big fan of that pick.

People talk a lot about Epenesa’s upside, or lack thereof, but if you’re sliding him inside in subs, his pass rush upside is a lot higher than people give him credit for. When he lined up inside at Iowa, he just destroyed guards.

If 16 teams 'aren't concerned' and 16 teams are, you can still report that "many NFL teams aren't concerned" when in fact you've just cut a player's draft prospects in half.

I'm sure many teams ARE taking these fairly lightly. But I don't think that's necessarily a slam-dunk approach. For the reasons I suggested, I think there are absolutely red-flag possibilities there.

I think we have a tendency to view 'the NFL' as a monolith rather than a collection of 32 organizations that view things very differently. Especially when we start trying to interpret reports. There are teams viewing it as you are - just as there are teams viewing it more critically. Because there's just not a way to truly know the answer so why should we believe a consensus will have formed?

Anytime a workout doesn't show a bunch of athletic explosion and major upside teams get super worried about using 1st round picks.

I'd be ok with it, but I do think history shows us we may be able to find that without the 32nd pick.

I’m going to lock in my wants for the top three rounds before the draft.

1. Grant Delpit, S, LSU
2. Willie Gay Jr, ILB, Miss. St
3. Cam Akers, RB, Florida State

I'd take Queen with the first pick 10 out of 10 times if he's there and I think there's a good shot it happens since he has just enough questions.

Morse is worth remembering here.

Morse was such a polarizing pick because there was zero flash to his game. And people are used to 1st and 2nd round picks having "tremendous upside potential" (hat tip to Hubie Brown).

And Morse brought none of that but a super-safe floor. Well everyone that was a reach because you draft floors in the 3rd round.

Well....maybe many teams do, but it's clear with the Morse pick (and to a lesser extend the Speaks pick) that the Chiefs organization will put a significant value on floor, even in early rounds.

Ultimately maybe 1/2 the teams in the 2020 NFL draft will get a player in the 1st round who has a career that rivals Grant Wistom's. If you get that guy at the back of the 1st, you've done well.

We love the possibility of snagging a 3-4 time All Pro in the 1st round, but man - you get a guy that can keep you from having to spend $8-10 million/season in FA to get your SDE and you get a firmly above average player, you've used that pick well.

I’d love it.

In the end it's all about what the options are, like I'd take him over a RB but not Queen etc.

The problem I see with that approach is how many of those types of DL have we seen taken in the late 1st that just don't pan out?

I don’t know, but I know that Epenesa is about as safe as it gets at 32.

A lot of times the DL taken at the end of round 1 are big reaches that teams are grabbing for need, LJ Collier for example.

Also did anyone actually look at Peter Kings Mock draft? Some of these mocks I'm seeing I really hope they fall that way.

Late 1st tends to yield high measurable, low motor 'upside' guys that bust.

Besides, we see tons of busts at all points in the draft for all reasons and all positions.

Ultimately Epenesa's scouting report reads like a more polished Tamba Hali, who was a solid 4-3 DE in his own right and who was taken late 1st.

Usually your late 1st DE's look like Yeter Gross Matos.

Nate Taylor was on with Petro on Friday and said that the Chiefs feel their only major loss was Kendall Fuller and that there were options in this draft who could replace him.

Delpit or Winfield Jr would actually be upgrades IMO. Could also see Burgess as a very good option as well

I said this somewhere else, but I think his ceiling is Tamba Hali. Watching some tape, that's who he reminds me of.

That's not bad.

I think Akers is a second round pick. At worst early third. You get him at the back end of the third that is an absolute homerun.

Daniel Jeremiah
@MoveTheSticks
·
57m
Talked to a bunch of GMs over the weekend. A couple of guys that will go higher than anticipated:

USC OT Austin Jackson
TCU WR Jalen Reagor
Bama CB Trevon Diggs
TENN Edge Darrell Taylor

Trevon Diggs is a guy we should be talking more about. He’s a legit possibility at 32 IMO.

Bama CB Trevon Diggs

Yeah, I could see Buffalo trading up for him. Not that interested myself. Like Damon Arnette better and Diggs is solid but not very twitchy.

Seems like a single at best pick.

I actually think he might go higher than that.

Over the last few days I've had a bit of a change in thought on some things. The NFL by and large does not value off ball LB's unless you are really special, they however do value outside players and OT's...

So some of these mocks, I think Okudah, Henderson, Gladney, Fulton, Terrell and Diggs may all be 1st round picks.

Diggs doesn’t turn over the ball. He and Arnette are similar this way, plus Diggs shies away from tackling.

Pass.

Because his brother is on their team?

Yes, and Stefon Diggs was unhappy so this brings in his brother and gets the coach another zone corner for his defense. Buffalo always uses their first pick on defense with the exception of when they got their QB.

They traded their 1 for Stephon...

Right. Which they were forced to do because their offense was so crappy that they scored 1 TD on a trick play against the Texans. So the word out of Buffalo is that they are looking to move their 2nd round pick up to the beginning of the 2nd round.

My guess is they are coming up for Diggs.

Their coach has a lot of pull over the draft. In 2017 he was the one who traded the pick we used on Mahomes so he could grab a zone corner.

Peter Schrager just did a segment on this on GMFB. He said he spoke to several GM’s and most had all these guys as first rd picks. My prediction for the this thread is #1

The only one of those that stuns me is Dobbins just because he's a RB, the other guys aren't surprising look at their positions and Jordyn Brooks is what the LB position was built on for years, Queen is new school so some GM's won't like him.

Hey everyone out there with the athletic, Bob McGinn posted a shit ton more draft stuff in the past several days, anyone wanna post that for us?

RunKC :grovel:

Might just create a thread. McGinn posted a lot since Friday. He’s got his reports on every positional group except LB and DB

Spoiler alert for the McGinn on every player:
Scout A "I like this kid"
Scout B "**** this piece of shit"

LOL, I saw one on Bechton where a scout doesn't like him because he likes to cook, that seems absurd.

Agreed.

In that scenario, I'd go with McKinney all day long

Patrick Queen made Terez all juice team

Whenever sportwriters or TV anchors say things like "This guy will be a 10 year starter at tackle!", I think to myself, "Uh, nope". The likelihood of that happening is usually slim to none.

I could be completely wrong about Epenesa but I just don't see 1st rounder and long, glorious career with this guy. He looks like he'd be a fit with NE but anywhere else, I'm just not sure.

Well, that sounds like the NFL!

Think about how Mahomes was the prize for Reid, Payton, Arians and others.

Meanwhile, other teams didn't even understand what they were watching.

That's why the draft is fun. Pittsburgh..they know how to draft WR's. But CB's..forget it.

Ravens-amazing drafters. But they also struggle at finding WR's unless they have a high pick.

I’m getting sold on a S more and more every day.

Like I’ve said before, I love the idea, just didn’t buy it as a legitimate possibility.

Then I remembered our reported interest in Fitzpatrick. They clearly would love to add a 3rd safety with versatility.

LMAO

Yeah, I'd take a guy at #32 or anywhere else in the draft if I was pretty sure he'd play for the Chiefs for 11 seasons (seasons 11 & 12 were injury plagued and unwarranted) rack up 89.5 sacks, 33 Forced Fumbles and 460 solo tackles.

If Epenesa met or exceeded those numbers, he'd be in the Top 10 overall of this entire draft, maybe even Top 5, which is why it's important to ignore the talking heads and their constant hyperbole.

Same here. Having a third safety would help this defense so much. I’m all for Delpit, McKinney, Winfield or Chinn at the end of the first.

We really should make a list of guys we think are going to be picked before our pick because this draft is likely to shake out really weird. Like you could sell to me that 2 or all 3 of those safeties are gone or that all of them are there. Same for the LBs.

Definitely disagree here.

When you get down to it, Epenesa has been almost as productive as Chase Young has the past 2 years. I also think his “poor combine” was overblown as his vertical and broad jump showed adequate explosion. His 40 time wasn’t ideal, but his 10 yard split was on par with other big edge rushers.

I thought he was overrated at the beginning of the process when he was considered a top 15 player, but I definitely think he’s top 20-25 and would be a damn good pick at 32. He can play SDE on early downs and slide inside in subs. When I watched the tape, he dominated inside against guards, so I think his pass rush upside is a little better than people think if you plan to utilize him in that way often. He’s definitely a fit here with his versatility IMO and Daly, former Pats DL coach, would probably use him in a similar fashion as the Pats would.

The defense was greatly improved when Spags moved Fuller to safety so replacing him with Delpit, Winfield or McKinney would likely give him the same options as Fuller but with a more athletic player.

I mentioned this a few weeks ago and was met with "But Sorensen, HB and Thornhill!", as if one of those guys isn't 30 and the other isn't coming off a recent ACL tear.

I just don't see an athletic guy that's going to wreak havoc on NFL offensive lineman. Also, looking at their schedule and the level of competition, I just didn't see him anywhere near a first rounder or in the same category as Chase Young, who is an absolutely monster.

But hey, the draft is a crapshoot and for all I know, this guy could end up like Jared Allen.

Or Manny Lawson.

And this defensive backfield is one Honey Badger injury away from going back to complete shit.

Totally.

And from what we've seen with recent ACL's (Houston, JC, etc.), I'm not sure why anyone would expect Thornhill to 100% by August and ready for a full workload come September because the guy tore his ACL on December 30th.

In no way was I saying he’s Chase Young, just saying his production was at that level. There’s definitely a reason he’s fallen to the bottom of the 1st and Young is considered the best player in the draft.

He has great technique and violent hands to go with functional strength and a varied pass rush, which is why I think he will continue to be a productive player at the NFL level, even if he’s not oozing athleticism.

But yea that’s why the draft is an art and not a science.

Riskiest Prospects

A.J. Epenesa, EDGE, Iowa

There's no way to say A.J. Epenesa disappointed over his three-year run with the Hawkeyes. His past two seasons featured 22 sacks and eight forced fumbles, and he wasn't even a full-time player until 2019.

But there's more to being a good NFL prospect than posting strong numbers in college. Given the rise in competition, question marks with athleticism can prove to be fatal flaws.

As Band wrote, that's a big red flag for Epenesa, since he fell short in virtually every physical test:

"At 6'5" and 275 pounds with 34½-inch arms, Epenesa has the ideal frame for the position, but his lack of speed (5.04 40), quickness (4.46 short shuttle, 7.34 3-cone), explosiveness (9-foot-9 broad jump, 32½-inch vertical leap) and strength (17 bench reps) all raise red flags for a potential early pick. If Epenesa is taken in the first round next week, he will be the first primary edge rusher dating back to 2003 to be selected in Round 1 despite running a 40-yard dash slower than 5.0 seconds."

Maybe the numbers don't matter. Perhaps he had a rough day at the combine. Or maybe he's just one of those players who performs more athletically on the gridiron.

But there's also a worst-case scenario in which Epenesa heads to the NFL as a first-round pick without a defined position. As far as the tests are concerned, he doesn't have the juice to be an outside pass-rusher or the size and strength to play inside. When teams are spending an opening-round selection on someone, they presumably want to know where that player will line up for the next 5-10 years.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...iest-prospects

I don’t care what one moron says. What about the other 99%?

Epenesa is a high floor prospect. It’s literally the biggest knock on him (lack of upside). That’s just one random shit take, but I’d expect nothing less from JakeF.

He's a strong side defensive end, he's now getting knocked that he can't play standing in a 3-4 basically, I mean god forbid a guy be better fit in a 4-3 these days.

We don’t need a damn DE

I want Kenneth Murray, probably won't be there seeing that he's better than Queen. I'd love to have another DJ type player in the lineup, and since Ragland is gone, Murray - Pennel - and the rest of this crew would lock this run defense down. The pass coverage is a bonus with this kid, very rangy.

Tell me why he's better than Queen cause I disagree with that.

Just go look at his stats, combine, film... Queen has one proven year, Murray has three.

Murray has played in more games, I don't think his workout is better, Queen is very fast and his coverage drops are outstanding, to me this is more new school old school.

Murray is a bit more traditional where Queen is a new school NFL backer in where he can cover like DB.

I did a mock and completely ignored need.

My first 3 rounds went like this:

1. Patrick Queen
2. Kyle Dugger
3. Amik Robertson

Holy shit the middle of the field would be locked the **** down.

Queen is a little faster Murray, by like a very small fraction of a second... He might be a tad better in pass pro, but he's also weaker than Murray in stopping the run and getting to the QB.

He's significantly better in pass, Queen is one of the most fluid LB's I've ever seen when dropping into coverage...

One of our weakness in the first half of last year was stopping the run, I'm mainly looking at it from that perspective. I just think Murray is better in that regard, I am not opposed to Queen, everybody on here wants a good pass pro linebacker as well.

Queen's a Will backer, IMO. I just don't see a way for him to be a true Mike.

Murray...well he could be a Mike. And physically he has all the tools to be just as strong in coverage as Queen, but he was never asked to do it. So really you just don't know.

I think people are beating on Brooks a little too much, personally. Dude played credibly in coverage in the B12. That means something. No, he's not the pure coverage player Queen is but honestly, he's probably better at everything else on the field. And Murray may be in the same spot. These are still good athletes who do other linebacker things very very well.

You're putting a LOT on coverage ability if you're buying into Queen as a clear top option. And honestly, that may be the right approach.

But I do have some concerns about his versatility as a LBer.

Queen is a straight 4-3 will, no question about that, he isn't as versatile as some of the other guys.

I just think in todays NFL, he has more value because what he's really good at is something that is rare and when you have it, it means something in the pass heavy game.

But he's gotta be good enough at linebacker stuff to be...a linebacker. Not just a glorified 3rd safety.

And that's my worry with him. Is he actually an outstanding coverage linebacker? Or is he just a bigger safety, making him something of a tweener?

I like him, but I think things are a little more hazy with him than some believe. He's not a true 'three down linebacker' in that he's really not an asset against the run. He's a guy who's probably going to be a little weak in that regard. Yeah, he's better at the key downs but have we all forgotten the frustrations of our ass run defense so quickly?

If he slides or if the Chiefs don't take him...well I'll understand why.

I think he'll grow into being a complete player, everything about him is his work ethic and want to is top notch, so I think he gets there, his pass cover stuff though, he's more comfortable at that than basically 95% of LBs you'll see do it.

Kenneth Murray Scouting Report


Strengths:
Sideline-to-sideline speed
Tough run defender
Good tackler
Hard hitter
Very physical
Quick
Diagnosis skills
Read-and-react skills
Fits a 4-3 or 3-4 defense
Always around the ball
Quick to the flat
Closing speed
Rangy
Advanced pass-coverage linebacker
Can help cover against tight ends and running backs
Can drop into zone coverage
Good instincts
Dangerous edge rusher
Ability to bend
Ability to dip
Has the speed to turn the corner
Asset to spy mobile quarterbacks
Strong, thick build
Durable
Leader
Hard worker
Athletic upside
Upside; continues to improve
https://walterfootball.com/scoutingr...020kmurray.php

I don't think Murray gets enough credit for his pass protection on CP, I realize it's not up to par with the finesse style of Queen, but he's quite capable.

Basically the differences here are, Murray played in a lot more games, he's a more finished product, and he's also a much more NFL made player, he's super safe and easy to project.

Patrick Queen is a new style of player that started 9 games, now his athletic skills are off the charts though, but not nearly as finished of a product.

I get that, and I guess I lean more towards a proven commodity, than a possible one year wonder... Not to say, Queen won't have very good, if not great NFL career.

Queen also coming from a school that has a pretty solid history of putting really good LBs into the league.

Now consider who we have in Hitchens.

Hitchens appears to be stretched a bit as a Mike, but he excelled as a Will in Dallas. Moreover, a Will backer is a bit easier to come across than a true 3-down Mike.

I've been reluctant to consider Murray in the same class as Queen but over the last week or so, I've moved them to no worse than neck and neck and frankly, I might like Murray more at this point.

He's a true linebacker who can cover. Queen's a cover player who will play linebacker. I know 'positionless football' is the thing right now but ultimately I think it's easier to scheme guys into positions to succeed - run defense, OTOH, you either have the manpower or you don't.

Eh....just don't draft a !@#$ing runningback and I'll be happy.

Queen is also 20 years old, wouldn't stun me at all if his body matures a bit more also. I personally think Hitchens has maybe a 1 year 2 max left here and our entire LB position is likely to be overhauled in the next 2 years.

Really?

Last 20 years you have mostly JAGs, no?

Kelvin Sheppard
Perry Riley
Bradie James
Kevin Minter

That's about it - am I missing someone? Minter's probably the best player of that lot, almost by default.

Then there's Devin White but the books far from written there.

I wouldn't say LSU has any kind of standout history for linebackers unless I'm just completely whiffing on someone.

Kwon Alexander

Whoa now...

I see you listed Devin White
Deion Jones?
Kwon Alexander?

Queen has some Deion Jones in his game as that dude is awesome in coverage.

OU doesn't have a stellar history in their own right, though. Curtis Lofton is probably the class of this field and then a few 'meh' guys like Clint Ingram that hung around for a bit.

Not sure there's much to be taken from it either way, honestly.

Jones and Alexander - good pulls. Strong off-ball backers that weren't exactly slam-dunk NFL prospects coming out of High School. They both developed nicely in college.

Okay - point Queen.

Isn't it pretty much consensus that Murray is better?