I honestly think they would've. It would be one thing if they were ticky tack calls, but both were honestly about as egregious as it gets.

Ward brought Chase all the way to the ground. A capper to an absolutely atrocious game for him.

I'm mad about the PI on Sneed, and the roughing on Sneed, and the missed false starts. But I don't have any problem with those calls on the goal line. Our corners blew it.

Did you see any missed holds that the O-lines committed? Or do rules just not matter there?

In b4 "there's a hold on every play" and/or "that's not a hold (grabbing the jersey), that's only a hold in the defensive secondary"...

The biggest example would be the 2019 game against the Patriots in the regular season.

Also, another question. About the Dee Ford offsides penalty. What difference does it make when the flag was thrown? He was clearly offsides. This was a correct call, was it not?

In the defensive secondary, the NFL rulebook states, "Any grab of the jersey is a penalty" Of course, this is not the way it is adjudicated

And they’d still **** it up.

What do the NFL writers have in store for the Chargers vs Raiders game? Both have compelling stories and are in new markets. Can anyone with access to the script share how the storyline plays out?

apparently they keep a tight lid on the script until after all the games have been played. then all the nostradumbasses come out and tell us how it was fixed all along. convenient.

How about the borderline late hit on Mahomes by Hendrickson?

Then he drove Mahomes to the ground and flopped on him with his full weight- the very definition of a penalty-NO CALL!

The refs were atrocious. This has got to be the most incompetent crew in the NFL.

I don't know about rigged games. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

But Andy should have raised a stink on the officiating, even if he got penalized for it.

That's why baseball coaches charge the plate and yell at the umpire; not to change the call; but to make sure the umpire knows it better not happen again.

Hell, I'd pay good money to see Andy walk on the field and get in the ref's face.

The fact that Andy Reid said "I don't wanna get fined so I won't say anything" which is coach speak for "we got jobbed" tells me all I need to know. He rarely talks about refs after a game.

Jesus you're ****ing stupid.

Probably an NFL disinformation agent.

No one can with any semblance of deductive logic and cognitive reasoning can honestly say they watched that game on Sunday and that it was a legitimate sporting contest with equality in officiating and that the best team won, right?

So go **** yourself with your smarmy, uninformed and downright ignorant comments.

If you want to discuss what you saw like an adult, you can do that.

Otherwise, you prove what we are saying when "and people will explain anything away" is a reason why the NFL doesn't care that it's obviously rigged. You won't question it.

You ARE the rube that the NFL is counting on to be their core audience.

Congratulations!

That's the rub - ARE they that 'atrocious'...or are they doing what the NFL wants, and by proxy, actually doing their jobs well?

I know if it appeared that I was THAT terrible at my job, then I would be fired. As would most all of us. Players and coaches too.

The refs are the only ones allowed to seemingly **** up over and over again...and the coaches and players have a veritable ****ing GAG ORDER in re: to officiating and will get in TROUBLE if they even talk about it.

What the **** is THAT shit?

Me neither. Seems like it's a thing.
He did, on the field and mentioned it in his presser.

Andy isn't that kind of coach.

How many decades of "atrocious" one-sided officiating does it take before the fans catch on to the ruse?

NFL has a monopoly product...and the brilliance is it's also inter-woven in the cultural fabric of their local communities....while also being one huge corporate conglomerate....it's no different than having a McDonald's franchise in Miami and one in New Orleans.

The difference is people emotionally attach themselves to one of the local franchises...which doesn't happen with a Taco Bell.

Kansas City - Chiefs + BBQ
Cincinnati - Bengals +Skyline Chili

Online gambling is going to be the downfall of the NFL....it used to be contained to only Vegas and the like. Now it's like a cancer...way too much easy money to make. Shave a few points here...shave a few points there and make 100's of millions.

It's a toxic combination of billion dollar network deals contingent on ratings...and point spreads.

I knew this was ultimately coming the moment the NFL signed on with casinos as a partnership...this is just the first season of it too.

NFL has forgotten that the allure of their product was athletic competition..when this comes into question...nobody will care.

People sitting around wondering how all these top teams keeps losing to dregs..and dont know who is any good anymore. Well get used to it...this is the "New Normal".

To expand :

Bob Kraft, the CEO of Viacom, buys the Patriots, saves football in Boston, and the NFC moved from CBS to FOX...then, when NBC's AFC contract was up...Bob Kraft's Viacom-owned CBS gots the contract for the AFC, so Bobby's Patsies have been on his network since

You can't make that shit up.

Is it not possible that officiating is just an imperfect and difficult assignment tasked to individuals who are fallible and forced to process a multitude of things at the same time? And is it not possible that there's a huge selectivity bias where you happen to remember vividly the games like Sunday where the Chiefs clearly were on the wrong side of the officiating stick but will completely ignore other games when the same dynamic ends up favoring them?

rabble, the Dee Ford neutral zone infraction is singularly the most important penalty in Chiefs history, and your memory of that wasn't even remotely accurate as you clung to a narrative that suited this view that Brady always gets the calls and the Chiefs get nothing.

I look forward to the next time the Chiefs benefit from 3 more bad calls in a game than the other team and the thread someone starts claiming the NFL is rigged in the team's favor.

:spock: There is no 'favorable' rigging towards certain teams, it all comes down to the script. It is predetermined.

The Chiefs were favored by 5.5 points over the Bengals right? Once the Chiefs got ahead by 14 in the first half and were just easily carving them up, I knew the flags were gonna start flying. And right on cue, they came. Big return? Nah, holding. Big run on 3rd and 2? Nah, holding. Big stop on 3rd down? Nah, pass interference. False start on the Bengals on a big play late in the game? Nah, encroachment on the defense.

The 18 penalties they got on their final "game winning drive" was just the icing on the cake. This cake:

http://s3.media.squarespace.com/prod...Bto%252Bus.jpg

Yep, it’s just like freaking clockwork every goddamn time. It’s so blatantly obvious when it starts happening that it boggles my mind that some people actually don’t see it, especially with so much money on the line. That some people actually think this does not happen. It’s laughable.

Watch the NFL long enough kid and you will realize games are steered. The Chiefs were allowed to play physical football in the postseason all the way up to last year's superbowl where magically it was called against old fart and the Bucs. Meanwhile they were allowed to tackle or receivers for no calls. That does not make a difference???

Games are steered. Not rigged but absolutely steered a certain way.

I think the issue with your average fan accepting reality....is the fact they've always assumed it was legit without ever doing any real research.

I mean as kid going to games...it all seemed official and above board. Right? Stadiums, Mayors, cheerleaders...lunchboxes and jackets....minus the betting line posted every week in the newspaper....ignore that detail and Jimmy the Greek.

It's never been legit...ever. That is just an assumption based on ignorance. It has never been legally registered as a sport...it is technically an "entertainment" corporation. They can fix any game they want and it's all perfectly legal. They arent committing any crime...why do think coaches and announcers arent allowed to criticize the officials? They are untouchable. Think about how ridiculous that is...Andy couldn't say what he was thinking because they will take his money for being truthful..

It's a racket...but in fairness...it's THEIR racket. It's their monopoly and they can make their own rules. The moment they register it as a "sport"...it all goes out the door. There are legal ramifications at that point...the WWF is the only other entity with an entertainment designation. MLB and NBA are an official sport.

I bet the Raiders get screwed big time against the Chargers if the game is at all competitive.

1. It's POSSIBLE...but highly unlikely. Again, if they're not up to the challenge, maybe find some people who aren't doctors or entertainment attorneys to take their places? If you, me, coaches, or players were that consistently terrible at their jobs, then replacements would be found. Yet, no one is allowed to ever even talk about how "inconsistent" the officiating has become, lest the long arm of the shield comes down.

2. We all know there was an egregious hold by one of our offensive linemen who shall remain unnamed to protect the guilty on the WASP play in the Super Bowl.
I have eyes.

3. The next time the Chiefs benefit from 3 bad calls in one game will maybe be the first time.

Earlier in the week maybe.

Line went to 3.5 right after the ref change was announced and then closed at 3.

People have so much invested, emotionally, financially...

Cognitive dissonance. Look it up. Proof is right in their face and they'll explain it away.

This is a league started by mobsters so they could have something to make books for on Sundays because horseracing was illegal on Sundays.

It's NEVER been anything BUT a racket.

I cant even make a call on it...betting against the more popular team that is based Las Vegas? Is that wise?

SoFi is going to have home games this post-season...and the Chargers could win 3 straight SBs and nobody in LA would give a shit...they are a San Diego transplant team...and always will be.

The one neutralizer is promoting Herbert...but they can do that during the regular season.

There is another angle...KC wont play the Raiders in round 1...they will get the Colts. Chargers would play KC...as shitty as the Bengals game was officiated...they arent rolling through the playoffs with Mahomes gone in the first round...

Chiefs would get the Raiders in round 2 is they were to win (I think)...the NFL ultimately wants a Bengals rematch. They put those "hype' wheels in motion last Sunday...

This thread has gone off the deep end of the loony bin.

Cool story. You gonna tell me pro wrestling is real, too?

I'll bet you still believe in Sandy Claws and the Easter Bunny...

Are you ever going to answer my question about why the NFL needed the Bengals to score a FG and not a TD, so that they would cover the spread, when they were 3 point underdogs?

In case you need a reminder.

If the game went to OT, KC could have won by 6 like they did 2 weeks ago.

Question, Wouldn't a Cincinnati loss been better for the TV ratings? Meaning the Monday night football game last night with Pittsburg and Cleveland would have had more meaning to it. I mean flip the Chiefs and Bengals score and there is still "Those scrappy Bengals almost pulled it out" talk happening. This would have kept people interested in the AFC North for the last weekend of the year. Also isn't the Pittsburgh fan base probably larger and more money in it then Cincinnati?

Or am I being short sighted and need to look at the Playoff money and not the regular season money now?

There's always a conspiracy if you look hard enough for it and line up the information the way you want to see it.

There were other plays in the game where it was pretty clear that Fenton/Ward made a lot of contact before the ball got there and there was no call. The really bad call on Sneed and the 3rd and 27 play are what sealed the game. I would need to watch the all-22 to see if the Chiefs were consistently holding/interfering all game and only some were called. I'm not going to re-watch the game so forget that...

The Bengals were making plays and taking chances in the second half. The Chiefs were playing it rather safe, the Bengals were rewarded for that play.

In close games, there's always a few plays that if they went the other way, it would have changed the outcome. The Chiefs defense gave up a rookie record in passing yards. Refusal/unable to adjust to the Bengals offense is what cost the Chiefs the game.

But what if they kicked a FG and left time on the clock? A TD by us plus the EP would have us up by 4, thus covering the spread.

What he said makes no sense, but he won't address it for some reason.

Nobody knows what makes sense until your favorite team gets jobbed by shitty refs and then it all becomes crystal clear.

*checks calendar, it's Tuesday*

Oh, this thread is still going, eh?

Not unless you stop being a ridiculous twat.

Idk, maybe they did that for funsies. Maybe the NFL wanted Cincy to win the North. Maybe it had something to do with Vegas.

I don't know and honestly the "why" doesn't matter to me so much as the reality that it's happening. I doubt you'll understand that train of thought, either.

That’s not an embarrassing answer at all to you, is it?

He doesn't get it. Fartgod is being intentionally obtuse.

He's trolling.

The fact that this has to be explained to adults is the embarrassing part.

I don't give a **** about what Fartgod wants to know. He didn't even know that the line had changed when the refs got changed.

He didn't even know that THE LINE HAD CHANGED WHEN THE REFS GOT CHANGED.

I'm actually trying to discuss this rationally. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm being obtuse. You were the one who refused to answer my question about something that YOU were offering as proof that the game was rigged. And then you finally explain it away that the NFL was doing it for kicks.

Why would I know that the line had changed? I don't bet on the games. I referred to the lines I posted on Friday in my gambling thread. I'm pretty sure that I admitted my mistake, something you are incapable of doing. "Idk, maybe they did that for funsies". Give me a ****ing break.

Look, I've purposely tried to have a civil discussion about this with you because in the past you got butt hurt and put me on ignore for the way I addressed you. That ends now. Go ahead and put me on ignore again you ****ing loon.

Exactly right. I'm not some grand NFL conspiracy believer and I certainly couldn't tell you what their reasoning was for wanting KC to lose that game. My guess would be they want a Mahomes/Herbert matchup in the first round instead of suckbag Tannehill vs the Bolts. It's actually pretty simple if you think about it. Again, it's not conspiracy. Just follow the money. They also now have Mahomes for 3 playoff games potentially instead of 2, and if you don't think that matters you should ask yourself why almost every single KC game this year was on the national broadcast. He's a ratings machine. The only thing the owners of this league care about is making money. That's really all there is to it.

Whatever their reason was, I'm simply not naive enough to watch a game be completely orchestrated and chalk it up to 'bad calls.' I've seen games like that, too. That's not what this was.

Try not being a condescending prick when you want to discuss something rationally.

You'll get a whole different kind of response. Promise.

My 2¢ is if I believed in a grand conspiracy, I wouldn't necessarily know the why, as we all know potential reasons include money, Vegas, TV ratings, etc.

The repeated questions that are widely ignored by the most convinced though is how it's rigged... and that's where these discussions always fall apart.

One week the NFL is rigging a game with bad calls by long time officials, which apparently means long time officials are in on it... and another week they have to make last minute changes to the officials, because I guess the original crew wasn't privy to rigging the games like other crews? So, they needed to ensure incompetence over rigging?

But then other weeks entire games are rigged or "performed", like the week the Bills lost to Jacksonville and all of the other upsets happens.

So, it's actually WWF and it's all just a performance and the players and coaches are in on it, except when the refs are involved to rig games, or substitute refs are brought in become the original crew wasn't riggy enough or something.

So.... deciding what the hell you all believe would be a nice start, since it changes so dramatically depending on the outcome of the games and what can be cherry picked as sus.

Thank you.

Logic.

It's not a "conspiracy" - the Supreme Court ruled in 2010 that the NFL is allowed to manipulate aspects of their onfield product "for entertainment purposes."

That means that they're admitting that's what they do.

My guess would be they want a Mahomes/Herbert matchup in the first round instead of suckbag Tannehill vs the Bolts because the general consensus is that Mahomes and Herbert on a Monday Night playoff is "more entertaining" than suckbag Tanny vs Bolts. Because, let's face it...Bolts fans aren't going to tune in en masse. Do they even have even fans yet?

Mahomes/Herbert will get WAY better ratings than Tanny/Herbert.

I mean, if you could prove that's not what they're doing, I'll listen. But no one can prove that's not what they're doing.

In fact...they've admitted in court that they can and do, they're allowed to, and that fans will keep watching anyway.

And they're right.

That's the opposite of a conspiracy. At this point, the NFL calls it their modus operandi.

Follow the money, indeed.

Maybe it is?

If you watched the game on Sunday, then THAT is how they rig games in the NFL.

THAT ****ING SIMPLE.

I felt like I was watching the 2nd half of the Chiefs/Titans "forward progress" game combined with the ending of the @Oakland "unlimited untamed downs" game.

Seriously. We've seen that before. For ****'s sake, the 'how' is the EASIEST thing to prove if you have eyes and don't believe in ****ing fairy tales.

The part you keep overlooking and not responding to...

The line changed after the refs were changed.

Why?

So, lemme get this right:
There are those on this board who say the NFL is totally predetermined.
Some say the games are not predetermined, but manipulated/steered during play.
Then there are those who say the NFL is completely legit, no tampering whatsoever.
I suppose the truth is in there somewhere.

I'm being a condescending prick? Really. Which posts of mine were condescending? Please, I need to know so I don't make that mistake again.

EXACTLY. Sounds like you've finally come to your senses, Bearcat.

It's a fair bit more likely that those replaced refs just weren't riggy enough than they contracted omicron or had flights canceled as a result of it.

Yeah, but you once again ignored the entire point of the post to vaguely say "just watch the game", instead of explaining how you believe games are rigged.

I mean, I can obviously conclude you're in the camp of refs rigging games, except then I don't know why the NFL would need a replacement crew to do that.

You have mentioned WWF and BlackOp seems to push it beyond refs to games being a performance and completely faked.... so, are you saying that's not the case? Because if games are completely staged, there's obviously no reason to rig them with replacement refs, unless I guess that's all just "part of the show".

Yes, I saw what happened in the Super Bowl, I saw the worst non-call in sports in New Orleans, and I watched the refs completely botch the end of the game the other day.... and I've actually provided far more details on the level of influence (intentionally or not) or outright rigging than you have..... because all you say is "IT'S SIMPLE, JUST WATCH".

These guys are scheduled to work the Pittsburgh game next week. Same as it ever was. No accountability.

The line really moved 2 1/2?

Dammit, Bearcat - just *wildly waves arms around* watch!

Don't forget to follow the money too.

Why is everybody scared to say RIGGED?!! It was ****ing RIGGED! Also, I see nobody wants to touch the other elephant in the room but that's cool.

I'm in this camp

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Me too, I think it's fairly apparent the games are at times taken over by the refs. To what end, who knows? But a penalty is a penalty until it isn't. Seems there's a lot of room for "interpretation".

Me as well.

Steered, manipulated, whatever.

The refs flagged the Bengals back into the game, and they flagged us to get our defense on the field.

It's easy.

They wear those earpieces in their ears and have the 'eye in the sky', but it's goddamn amazing how none of that mattered on Sunday, isn't it?

Remember when, who was it, the Cleveland coach who shoved a Chiefs player and they called in from New York? Stopped the ****ing game to get it right?

How they gonna let the Bengals false start twice and once let it be Encroachment on us and just let the other go entirely?

Come on, maaaaaaan...

And NO ONE is allowed to critique or question to even get a clarification.

Reid just goes "can't comment, get fined." Tomlin, too. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Yup.

No one wants to pay attention to that.

Bearcat and Dartgod would rather be pricks than to address it.

What's the other elephant in the room?

Then why did the line change Scott?

Replacement crew last minute fine but what's the explanation? They don't give one...

I am in the camp of the influence games and it doesn't always work out but they try.

Bad calls went one way and they flagged the Chiefs D into losing. That's fact. They also missed false start at the end it was blatant. I don' think you can just say they were just bad. They definitely pushed the Bengals to win. It was completely 1 sided. Thats a problem.

I just want more transparency and more accountability of the Refs. They should at least have to explain when they call one sided games or something. Some kind of way to hold them accountable.

It would be so easy to do and to improve the process but they don't do it. Until they do there are always going to be these questions and rightfully so.

Again, where was I being a prick? I asked a question that you refused to answer. Until you dismissed as the NFL just having fun. I reviewed all of my posts in this thread and until today, there was nothing "prickish" about my posts. Just asking questions.

Oh, he'll be playing the race card anytime now. He always does.

So, a few things:
1. I don't know how to track the line and don't know its normal volatility. Are you able to provide a day-by-day line so we can see what it was doing throughout the week? And what is normal throughout the season in betting lines?
2. When was it announced to the public that the refs were being changed?
3. Where there any other developments around the time of the announcement?

I can't really comment on that before you provide me with 1/ and 2/ (and if you can't provide those, then I can't give you an informed answer).

But assuming you are correct and the line changed the day that the announcement was made, one could chalk it up to pure randomness (hence, need to see the normal line volatility) OR there could be a lot of people out there like you and BlackOp that see a replacement crew and infer that the fix is in.

Correlation need not equal causation here.

Hit him with the god card

Don’t they do “in house” evaluations? I know at the collegiate level, they sure do. Coaches do an eval after the game as well. None of it is made public of course, but they are evaluated.
I don’t think games are “rigged” per se. But that game would’ve been called differently IF it was a playoff game…can we all agree with that? Flags tend to stay in pockets for both teams in the playoffs generally.
What I don’t like is when refs become TOO much a part of the game, especially at the end. Bad calls early can be overcome. Bad calls late can’t be and end up being decisive.

I'd like to see this as well. I don't bet on sports so I wasn't aware of what the final spread was. I did post it as Chiefs -4.5 on Friday in my gambling thread.

As someone who bets semi-regularly, it's not odd at all for lines to change on gameday for a multitude of reasons.

Usually it's because the book is trying to level things out to limit potential losses, which is Occams Razor in this case.

They do. I believe SI did a longform piece a while back following a Crew Chief for a week and documenting the process.

I'd like to first establish that the line changed within hours of the announcement of the replacement crew. That should be the baseline for this discussion.

Found it. Three part series.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2013/12/04/pe...-with-nfl-refs

https://www.si.com/nfl/2013/12/05/pe...-refs-part-two

https://www.si.com/nfl/2013/12/06/pe...rew-part-three

I'm not even arguing against you, I'm just trying to figure out how deep this goes in your opinion, since you're clearly ignoring that part of the conversation.

I take it you don't agree with BlackOp's perspective then, and that games aren't performed and the NFL doesn't have control over entire weeks of the season when there are a lot of upsets?

You're saying this is just between the NFL front offices and the refs?

You've said "everyone knows", so of course that includes coaches and players knowing and being okay with it.... even someone like Kaepernick, who completely got screwed by the NFL, hasn't (to my knowledge) come out and put it out in the open.

So once again... your opinion is this is strictly an NFL front office and refs thing, where the NFL steers games based on specific instructions to ref crews (whether it's as real time as "the Chiefs can't score before halftime or slightly less direct like "this game needs to stay close"). No player or coach involvement.

Lines during Covid have been particularly useless. I can't imagine laying a bet any time before the morning of (its likely better now that we're a few weeks into the new protocols).

I bet KC via Draft Kings. Seemed pretty consistent at -5 most of the week, then fell to -3.5 and settled at -4.5 when I wagered on Sunday morning.