Trading Craig would suck so bad I don't even want to consider it.

And young left handed first basemen who are power hitters don't grow on trees either.

I'd rather stay put.

I'd trade Zack Cox and Joe Kelly for Ryan Dempster.

Or just shop Cox around for a reliever.

Cox is a season away from getting jumped by Piscotti in the same way he's been blown past by Wong (and watched Carpenter pull away). He has absolutely no potential in this organization and will only atrophy.

Rather than have him be the next Bryan Anderson (another guy we should've traded 5 years ago when he was a plus average hitter and young developmental catcher that hit lefty), lets go ahead and get him moved before his value completely wastes away.

:D That wasn't my point though.

I think Cox is the natural person to be traded. If the price for SP is too steep, wouldn't be surprised if they go for RP instead.

I saw on the scroll last night that some team was calling up Kip Wells ROFL

WTF is with MLB and all these retreads?

There are actually quite a few decent arms that may hit the market.

Garza and Dempster being the obvious ones, but Liriano could be available and I think he'd be a great fill-in for Garcia. With his pending FA and erratic history, Cox would probably be enough to get him. The Nats are supposedly also interested, meaning that they really have no use for Lannan at all these days. Lannan could probably be had for salary relief and a C prospect like Tommy Pham.

Or go all-in on Hamels or Grienke. To be honest, both players are young enough (and our stable of arms deep enough) that I'd give Miller to get either guy.

Randy Wells got DFA'd today by the Cubs. He kinda sucks...but he throws lefthanded. Surely playing for a better team than the Cubs can help him recapture some of his form. He'll never be an ace, but we need arms and especially lefthanded ones. We could do worse than having him on hand as a #5.

Speaking of Miller. My dad told me that he was given the "no shake" rule. Meaning he can't shake his catcher off. Evidently the reason for this is because the coaching staff believes that he has struggled this season because he hasn't been utilizing his secondary pitches to his full capabilities.

I'd trade Cox for Liriano in a second. He is going nowhere here and although there is a low floor for Liriano there is a very high ceiling if he can get straightened out.

Yup.

But they also shut him down last time through the rotation to get him working on his mechanics. Additionally, his velocity has come down a MPH or 2.

He's a pitcher; they have bumps like this unless they're Strasburg. I'm not worried just yet - but I also have an irrational love of Tyrell Jenkins as a pitching prospect and think he'll be the true ace from our minor league system. If we can trade Miller for a young 'co-ace' that can hold down the fort for the next 5 years, I'd do it in a second. A guy like Lance Lynn preventing us from needing to spend $10 million on Jake Westbrook is incredibly useful here in that it allows us to really go hard after a top-shelf starter. Allen Craig does the same thing w/ his contributions over Lance Berkman as does Jay's wildly underrated performance in CF.

We should have the financial flexibility to both extend Waino and sign Hamels/Greinke (I'd prefer Greinke). With the baseball pendulum swinging back away from maulers, I think we should attack front-end starting pitching aggressively.

Heading to Dallas next week, and noticed that Springfield is playing at Frisco that weekend. Probably catch a game.

Anyone to get a good look at other than Oscar Taveras and Kolton Wong?

Cubs lost to the Mets today 17-1 at Wrigley.

Jesus. I'm actually on the brink of feeling sorry for them. LMAO

Bar time

IMO, if you could swing something for Hamels or Greinke, you do it.


I would like to keep ahold of Miller, but Jenkins is kind of skyrocketing anyway.

I agree that Cox is the only expendable trade bait that we have, I just question the value we will recieve in return.

I dont think Cox is seen by other clubs as having that much value.
No, Hell no on Grienke. That little shit could decide to quit baseball or phone it in after he gets his money or has a mental break down. Let someone else gamble on him. The price for Hamels will be as steep as anyone who has ever hit the market. And he will be a rental that will go to the highest bidder in the off season. I'd rather sign/extend Waino than go after Hamels.

Do you guys not live in KC? Grienke is damaged goods. He is a weird dude who could flake out at any mintue.

I don't want him either, especially at the dollars he would likely command. I would be tempted to take Hamels for Miller now. He is only 28, a solid number 2 if not a 1A starter. Being a lefty is a plus, especially in short series playoff match ups. Miller is at the cusp reputation wise, still highly regarded, and young, but judging from this year I think he is at least two years away from being a factor in a rotation. He could start dropping in his value if he doesn't start to make some adjustments with his approach to his game. He has a good arm, but he ain't in high school anymore and a 93-94 mph fastball won't get you by alone.

Trade a prospect that most teams consider the best pitching prospect in baseball for a rental player?

Miller is just a kid. He's probably arrogant, thinks he knows everything and not taking instruction well. He's getting drunk too often. He just needs to grow up. His upside is way to high for a rental.

I meant to say if you could sign him (Hamels). My main point is that I wouldn't necessarily call Miller off limits if a proven commodity of need is out there as an option. It wouldn't surprise me if Rosenthal makes it before Miller.

We couldnt resign Hamels and extend Waino. I'd rather have Waino.

I wouldn't see that as an either/or scenario necessarily. We have 20 million leaving the books next year in Lohse/Westbrook.

Lohse will probably get resigned. I was never sold on Westbrook. He is Donovan Osborn part 2 without the hot streaks. How much of that is Lohse? Could be doable. When is the last time we had a lefty threat?

I think Lohse is about 11.5 and Westbrook is a little under 8.5.

No we dont. Loshe will re resigned at $11-12 million. Budget $7-8 million for a Waino raise and your even.

Why not?

Berkman, Westbrook and Lohse come off the books at 12, 8.5 and 12 respectively, so there's 32.5 million and Wainwright's already on the books for $9 million.

The cost of Wainwright, Hamels, Lynn and Craig isn't going to much more than the cost of Wainwright, Berkman, Lohse and Westbrook. We'll also be getting McClellan's disastrous $2.5 million off the books to boot. Frankly, we have an option year on Waino anyway - if we have to write his extension in a manner that has it take effect in 2014 (after Carps deal expires), so be it.

Ownership can't let the team atrophy after letting Pujols walk and Carpenter doesn't have more than another season left in him anyway. If all they do is extend Waino in the offseason and re-sign Lohse (who is the exact sort of expensive mediocrity that dooms teams with mid-market payrolls), they're moving laterally in a big big way. That's unacceptable for an ownership group that has reaped far more revenue than it could've ever dreamed.

They need to make a stronger commitment, IMO. They made the smart baseball decision to let Pujols walk - now they need to re-invest the Pujols money into the team. Making an aggressive play on a 28 yr old star left-hander (a commodity this team hasn't had since Carlton) is hardly asking too much.

I really like what I have heard about Rosenthal. Proves once again you can find those diamonds in the rough (21st round) who can suddenly blow up occasionally. Miller had a good outing last night, maybe he will start to listen to his coaches after all.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/2...nclick_check=1

Landing Beltran and giving Molina a long term contract that was considered so generous that MLB clubs were publically complaining was not atrophy.

Mo has made enough moves that he should be trusted to make the right decision about mid season moves. He's made one bad trade and several excellent trades. On the curve of mid season trades, thats Hall of Fame level success. Just ask the Brewers who mortgaged their future last year. Only to lose to us. ROFL

I dont see the Dewitt's as being so cheap that they would rather make more money than win. Just dont see any atrophy.

Beltran picks up his 2000th hit on the night his jersey is the promotional handout.

Nice.

Hell, just start your own Braves thread. Better than the ****ing Giants.

I didn't open the Giants thread, but when I noticed it, I thought it was a joke.

**** :facepalm:

Ugh.

**** I hate that goddamn McCutchen. :cuss:

And why the hell didn't they give Wainwright the hook after last inning?

WTF happened?

I turned it off after we took a 5-2 lead. Figured that would be enough for Waino.

Waino missed location after location. And then the bullpen did its usual meltdown.

Sanchez and Freeman optioned to Triple A Memphis. Replaced by rookie lefty Barret Browning and right-hander Maikel Cleto. McClellan was moved to the 60 day DL to make room for Browning on the 40 man roster.

Freeman wasnt ready, not his fault. Either Sanchez starts to listen to his coaches or he is never going to be successful in the big leagues.

I don't get to watch as much of the Cardinals as I want. I was set to tape the Cardinals game against the Tigers on ESPN that was blacked out for me even though I'm 270 miles from KC and my cable company doesn't carry Fox Sports Midwest. How can they do that?

When I was with Direct TV they did the same thing. They said they could not make Fox Sports Midwest my local Fox sports regional network, even though Chicago is only marginally closer. Then every time the Cardinals played on ESPN it was blacked out. They have it both ways.

So long sack of shit and worthless Beaker. Whoops never mind on sack of shit. I read it as Salas.

Coming to STL to catch the Friday game with my parents for my bday. Dad wants to eat at Mike Shannon's downtown.



Is it worth it?

Overpriced but good steaks. Better places to eat downtown.

I've always wanted to eat there, but haven't. My friends have told me good things about it though.

Craig is a beast. Looking forward to getting Berkman back in a few weeks.

The math says one of the three (Taveras, Craig, Adams) will be traded by next year. We will have those 3 vying for 2 spots in the line up.

Who will it be? Who in the hell wants to part with one of those three? But, the math says you have too.

Carp has opted for surgery, out for the year. All are hopeful he will be ready for ST next season

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...9bb30f31a.html

Bummer. You hate to see a gamer like Carpenter get laid low like this so often. Why couldn't slack-asses like Kip Wells get this kind of lingering crap?

So where is all the Matt Holiday hate at?

It happens every year. Holliday starts slow every year and some fans cant forget the ball hitting him in the gut and blowing the game against LA his first year.

But, the facts are he has produced at the level he is being paid. How many of these off season big money FA contracts do you ever get your monies worth?

According to statistics his contract is actually a bargain and it looks like he is on track to have at least typical output.

I will admit even I was a bit concerned for a while even though I thought he would have a big year.

Carpenter out for rest of year after deciding to undergo surgery to repair nerve damage to his shoulder. With Jaime Garcia also on the DL, its leaves little doubt the Cardinals will be in the hunt for starting pitching before the July 31 trade deadline.

If it were me, I'd look at Liriano, Hamels, or Grienke. Go for the top end guy.

Yeah lets give up 5-6 years of quality pitching, possibly CY young quality pitching for a possible rental player. No thanks.

Hamels will go for the big $'s. Grienke is a basketcase one step from a meltdown.

I dunno about labeling our young pitching as CY young quality just yet, but I understand what your getting at.



I'm not as big on Hamels, but I'd love to have Greinke. If you could sign him to a deal and pair him with Wainwright that would be pretty solid.


You aren't likely going to have to give up all of your young pitching either.

Any idea when we might see Miller with the big club?

He sucks badly right now.

His velocity is way down, his command is garbage. He's probably the 4th or 5th best option for our rotation in the minor leagues at the moment.

He's a better bet to get traded than he is to see the show right now. He needs to un-**** himself in a hurry because if he's throwing 92 mph with no fastball command and the same unpolished off-speed stuff he had coming into the season, he's no future ace; he's just another 5th starter.

I remember the same shit being said about wainwright. remember??? The Cardinals were stupis to be calling up a minor leaguer underperforming instead of trading for a more telented reliever. Remember.....

I disagree with your assesment. Almost every great pitcher goes through this in the minors. They are still maturing, making high school mistakes. They have been coodled all their lives and now they have to listen to authority and change. It's not easy. Maybe he never listens and changes. Thats what happened to Reyes.

But, if he gets his act together according to the majority of scouts his upside goes all the way to Cy Young level. Why would you trade that possibility for a rental?

to get Grienke or Hamels its going to take Cox, Miller and Adams.

You really want to give up that future for a rental? We need a ballclub in 2014. Why mortgage the future now? We just won the World Series last ****ing year. We are going to have another Cardinals era start in 2014.

Not almost every great pitcher loses 4 mph off their fastball. The pitchers that lose 4 mph from their fastball AND lose command of it are usually hiding an injury....if they're lucky. The alternative is that they just start to degrade faster than some.

Oh, and put that CY crap in your pocket. You keep going to that well and it's absurd. The landscape is absolutely littered with players that dominated AA and then could never learn to harness their secondary pitches and ended up little more than a back of the rotation starter.

The 'majority of scouts' loved his velocity at 18 years old. He was throwing an easy 98 and could cruise at 94. Now he's lucky to hit 94 and is working in the 91 range. He has dominated the lower levels with his fastball so his secondary offerings are still seen as 'raw' to the point that he's been ordered not to shake off his catcher.

If he's a 22 year old kid with 94 mph heat and unrefined off-speed stuff, that makes him the same level prospect as Trevor Rosenthal and Joe Kelly. And history shows us that most kids that lose velocity in their early 20s don't just regain it.

He's struggled for half a season now and it's not just been the results. The stuff isn't there. He's not getting beat because this level is able to turn on his heat. He's getting beat because his heat just isn't that great anymore. And when your entire hype is built on being a power pitcher, not having that power to go to makes you destined for the back of a rotation or long-relief.

There's a 50/50 shot that he's a 12 months away from being a fading asset. We have 4 guys in the high minors that are considered premium pitching prospects (Miller, Rosenthal, Martinez and Jenkins); 2 of them will fail. The math doesn't lie. Those 4 pitchers are not all going to be what we thought they would be.

Oh, and as to Wainwright, I'm not buying your recollection. Wainwright destroyed the world in Spring Training and made the team out of camp. I think you're making shit up here to fit your narrative. Wainwright was seen by most as a young kid that simply stole a spot on the team and proceeded to dominate from the moment he hit the ground. He most assuredly wasn't a callup that struggled in AAA that people were ringing their hands over.

I lived in that era. I know was was being written and said. It was a big topic. Why are they putting a starter into a relief role, a 93 MPH fastball will get killed in relief.

I understand your point that not everyone makes it to the big show. And I agree. Thats why you hang onto your blue chips. They have the best chance to make it. You play the odds.

The bottom line is that the Cardinals dont need to act out of deperation. This isnt the last year of a window that wont open again for who knows how many years in the future.

Stay the course. See what kind of reliever help you can get for Cox and keep your bullets for future battles.

We'll be checking out the AA Cardinals down in Texas tonight. Kevin Siegrist pitching.

Heading over to Memphis tomorrow, and will have a front row seat to see Shelby Miller pitch. Curious to see this kid up close.

YOU WON'T EVER GET THAT 85 TROPHY, BASTARDS!!!

[/drive by]

No worries, we have 11 others.

Any chance you guys would take Francouer for Beltran, straight up? Beltran's heart is still here, you know.

We'll even throw in the SUPER FAST Jarrod Dyson! Act quickly!

Having 11 World Series Championship trophies is a comfort that any fan would love to have. Hoping you guys get another chance at another trophy is a cool thing. Really no BS.

Uh, no.

Although, ironically, I have a Jeff Francoeur autographed baseball. Got it for my Braves fan wife back when Francoeur was with Atlanta and didn't suck. The first couple of years that kid had, hard to believe he turned out the way he did. :shake:

Baseball will be better with a good team in KC, good fans, great stadium but sucky ownership.

I doubt that would do it now. Cox and Miller both are flailing. Adams might be attractive to the Brewers, but I doubt the Phillies would be interested unless they think they can find someone to take Howard and his massive albatross of a deal.

I don't see a problem with dealing any of them if you think you can have at least a 75% chance of keeping them. Cox is going nowhere here, Adams may have a tough time finding a place regularly here as well (if Craig can finally stay healthy). Once Beltran leaves that opens up a spot for Taveras keeping Craig on the infield.

I wouldn't mind seeing if Luhnow would let Wandy go for Cox, Greene and a lesser tier pitching prospect. He loved Greene when he was here.

I agree that Craig and Taveras seem to be the RF/1B of the future. But ya never know. How many times has Craig been injured already?

Mortgaging the future for a rental is only for the deperate, this is the last year we will compete for a long time teams. The brewers sold all their top talent and what did they get? smoked by the Cards. Philly went after Lee and got smoked by the Cards.

Screw trading our blue chips for rentals.

Not really, since Adams just hurt his elbow.

Cliff Lee was signed for as a free agent in his 2nd go around in Philly.

Shelby Miller:

2.1 IP, 3ER, 4BB. According to Strauss, scouts aren't at all impressed.

Just keep 'staying the course' with this kid. Hell, might as well at this point, we probably couldn't get a decent bullpen arm for him.

The time to trade him was 3 weeks ago and yes, we absolutely should've traded him.

Think it was Jocketty that said it, but minor league prospects serve two purposes.

Trading two prospects isn't mortgaging the future. That's not in any way similar to what the Brewers have done the last few years. Remember, it was multiple trades that wiped them out, not just one.

And as others pointed out, your faith in these prospects becoming superstars may be misguided. Would you have been arguing this hard against trading Reyes, Rasmus, or Bryan Anderson when they were "can't miss"?

If by some chance you could still lop Miller in a deal to get Greinke or Hamels and lock them into a deal, you jump at it.

Joe Strauss ‏@JoeStrauss
SD, NYY, CWS and Cubs scouting this series at Busch. SD seems a particularly interesting attendee.


Who are they all there for?

I was in attendance last night - front row seat behind the Redbirds dugout.

Never hit higher than 93 on the gun. Did have 4 strikeouts, and was getting squeezed a bit. Didn't look impressive in the least.

Peralta, the Brewers phenom is exactly what was expected of Miller coming up. This kid was filthy. Hitting 97-98 on the gun, 93 on his slider.

Looks like we are gonna have to go get some bullpen help somewhere.