I think what it comes down to (Keeping Hochevar) is that Moore is again being too reliant on what "The scout's eye" tells him on Hochevar.

I understand looking at him from that perspective. I did until this season (of course, his close to the 2011 season fooled me and a lot of other people - there was strong evidence that suggested he had turned the corner). He has continually underperformed his peripherals.

But just like guys who outperform their peripherals, once you reach a certain point you just have to realize that's who he is.

Hochevar should be a stud. He has the frame, the arm and the raw ability to be an extremely good MLB pitcher. But it's not going to happen, especially not in KC.

My stance remains: Whatever Dayton does this offseason, it had better work. THere's really no reason the Royals can't compete within the AL Central, which is an incredibly weak division.

Yeah, but you and I both know it'll be another 90-loss season. They are what they are.

:cuss:





:sulk:

This makes the most sense. Obviously, I disagree, but I could see this as a scouts vs quants argument in which the scouts won.

The Orioles have definite interest in the Royals' Billy Butler and Eric Hosmer. Let's see if those two players are really available, and if there's a potential match.


http://m.masn.mobi/school_of_roch/20...ion-begin.html

**** you and the o's
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No **** you.

Why not just go stay in the O's thread. No one hear wants to here your stupid shit.
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It's royals news dumbass.

We aren't trading four any of your shitty players
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If they are shitty(Made the Playoffs) I hate to see what you call your players.

Or pitching was horrible.

Again you beating your chest over one ****ing year after sucking for so long is humorous. Your head sure swole up over one year. See if it continues bitch, I'm betting not
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tell ya what, dylan bundy for wil myers and a LOOGY. anything other than that, you can go kick rocks.

This. **** the,o's
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O's fans might balk, but that's not a ridiculous proposal at all. Best hitting prospect for best "pitching prospect."

I know which I'd rather have, and luckily we already have him.

Do the Orioles have an established front-line pitcher to trade?

Because that's the only thing Hosmer or Butler is moved for. Since the O's don't have that, it won't happen.

End of story.

yep, we're going to need a top of the rotation starter, preferrably with 3+ years of control if we're dealing one of those two.

If that isn't possible, there's probably no match here, we'll take our chances making our best Texas Rangers impersonation and hope our pitching isn't too crappy to sink us.

I don't even give a f uck anymore. I expect nothing but gawdamn reerunedness from the Royals Brass, and I am rarely disappointed with the expected results.

I'm stuck in the middle of a f king Idiot Parade.

If anyone wants to cling to the hope that Hoch wont play for us or cost us money this year, perhaps...

we were working on a sign-and-trade and someone's interested but we couldn't finalize it before the 30th. We reach a deal with someone for say $1.5MM and a prospect, then we go to Hoch and say "hey, you need to sign this. If you don't, an arbitration contract isn't guaranteed, we'll just cut you in spring and only owe you 1/6 of whatever you wind up with in arbitration."

The flaw with that theory is if I'm Hoch I'll say "ok, fine. Cut me, I'll take the money you have to pay me even if its not the full $4MM, plus go be a free agent for someone else"

:spock:

Baseball Prospectus Top 10:

1) RF Wil Myers
2) SP Kyle Zimmer
3) CF Bubba Starling
4) SS Aldaberto Mondesi
5) SP Yordano Ventura
6) SP Jake Odorizzi
7) RF Jorge Bonifacio
8) 3B Cheslor Cuthbert
9) SP Miguel Almonte
10) SP Jason Adam

Also mentioned:
LHP Sam Selman, RHP Kyle Smith, LHP Mike Montgomery, C Cam Gallagher, LHP John Lamb, 2B/SS Christian Colon

My thoughts: I like Baseball Prospectus because it is the most aggressive scouting publication when it comes to ranking guys. It is less reliant on ranking more known quantities, like Baseball America.

Ranking Almonte this high is a great example of that. So is Cuthbert. Almonte is a "hot" riser who will get a chance to show he can stand up to a longer season this year. Having him this high shows a lot of trust in his stuff (because the production isn't there yet). Cuthbert is a guy who will finally get a chance to repeat a level after being the youngest guy in his league throughout his professional career.

The Royals have a collection of high upside guys (Who tend to have more risk) as BP sees it.

Myers is projected as a .280+, 25+ HR hitter, which is an All-Star caliber player (Ryan Braun lite has been thrown around, and that projection would bear it out).

Starling has the highest ceiling and highest risk, which I think we already knew. The guy could be Matt Kemp if everything works out (But probably with better defense).

Mondesi is so far away, it's hard to project some of the key things (basically, if he develops enough strength/power to succeed in the majors). Right now, I would PERSONALLY take him as a prospect over Francisco Lindor. Mondesi is younger and has more time to develop gap power, something Lindor hasn't really shown. Mondesi also flashes a better hit tool.

Noticeable guys left out:

RHP Angel Baez. Baez flashed impressive stuff at age 21 in Kane County and likely will start the season in Northwest Arkansas (Whose rotation likely is Zimmer, Ventura, Baez, Montgomery and Lamb to start the season. So, basically all the eggs for quick help will be in one basket). Must improve his control (30 BB in 80 IP at Kane County is the biggest worry spot).

SS Orlando Calixte. I'm really high on Calixte, whose value is driven by his bat. As a 20-year-old SS at Death Valley (Aka Wilmington, Delaware), he OPS'd .752, flashing workable OBP skills and good power. He probably can't stick at SS, but a move to 2B could help him rise quickly. Don't be surprised if he EXPLODES offensively when promoted to NWA (which probably happens around mid-season)

I'm gonna have to read that tonight. I specifically looked yesterday and they hadn't posted it yet.

Not sure I get Lamb outside the top 10. If he'd had a torn rotator I could see it, but TJ is almost no more than a delay anymore. I'd think he'd be in place of Adam, who's more of a 3/4 ceiling whereas Lamb has a 2 ceiling.

I'm also excited about Selman. If he can continue to improve his control, he's got pretty significant upside. Will be interested to see him move up against guys his own age or older.

What have you heard on Elier Hernandez? I was very excited about that kid watching the one video of him on YouTube. He seemed to have "it". Size, bat speed.....ball jumped off his bat. Boy did he tank this season. But, he's young, it was his first season, and some Latin players take time to get acclimated.

Yeah, i had Lamb sixth on my own list (which is 35 pages back now). I'm still a big fan (especially if he gets a 2-3 mph bump from TJ like a lot of guys do these days).

Selman's control was very good in his debut last year. Hopefully, he has figured it out. Because the stuff is there (95 from the left side, good hook, OK change).

Hernandez struggled a lot in 2012, but the tools are still there. He's just 17 years old, and it will take a while for him to get there.

That's what makes a guy like Mondesi (Or Jurickson Profar) stand out so much, because of the way they succeed at a young age.

Bob Dutton‏@Royals_Report

Concerning @jonmorosi report that #Royals are interested in RHP Brett Myers…yes, am told at "kicking the tires" level. Made $11m in 2012.

I like this story better:

Royals still interested in Sanchez

Cliffs: Royals saying they have money to spend early at winter meetings. Talking about Anibal Sanchez...

I would like that too, but I heard somewhere he is looking for 90/6?? That just seems like he is priced out of KC.

A week ago, the word was he was looking for 8 years, $120 million.

I don't know that KC could do 6/$90 million, but it wouldn't shock me if they did something like 4/$64 million.

@Ken_Rosenthal

Free-agent reliever Joakim Soria close to signing two-year deal with #Rangers, sources tell me and @jonmorosi.

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Free-agent reliever Joakim Soria close to signing two-year deal with #Rangers, sources tell me and @jonmorosi.

You're losin' your burst, O!

Q

@MLB

"They're just rumors." - Ned Yost on reports that @Royals are shopping Wil Myers: pic.twitter.com/TDFQoimH

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

mets asked red sox for top OF jackie bradley jr and top SS xander boegarts for dickey, according to @AdamRubinESPN


That's a lot for Dickey

lol the mets are reeruns. nobody is gonna give up that much for a knuckleballer with limited amount of control left on his contract

They'd be dumber not to ask. There's no sense in not anchoring on a discussion with a fairly valuable asset.

The Mets could easily get at least 1 guy of that caliber, so why not set yourself up for the counter?

Dickey's going to be an awfully nice property next season and would probably be a lot easier extension than any 'conventional' pitcher with his production over the last 2 years.

The guy is a solid risk and the kind of player the Royals should look for. Not at a Myers level, but Colon wouldn't be unreasonable and honestly, Bubba Starling should probably be pondered.

I understand anyone that doesn't want to trade Starling before anyone has an idea what he can do, but man the kid sure has sat around stagnant for a long time at this point. It may not hurt to toss his name around.

Yeah, I think Boegarts is aiming too high (he's a legitimate top 10 player, and that's not reasonable for many teams) but Bradley makes sense as a primary piece.

I've seen some recent - but not rock solid - reports about Starling from fall instructs that are very promising (shortened swing, better plane, less load, more contact). That would indicate his risk factor is a bit lower than it otherwise might be.

It would be tough to part with him, especially if the Royals quietly think he's putting things together. But if you believe in Dickey and that he can get it done in the AL, I think you do it, because it gives you a few years with a true TOR starter, which might be enough to push KC into serious contention.

Just saw that Anibal Sanchez story, if the Royals spend that kind of money ($15MM-ish per year) in a 4-year deal, I'll be a lot more optimistic about 2013.

Same, A LOT more.

Anibal sanchez is pretty much exactly what the team needs.

Lot of Butler/Seattle talk today.

Doesn't make much sense to me. They have pitching prospects and retreads. Nothing in between. It would take either an overwhelming number of the pitching prospects (say, Paxton + Walker) and Jesus Montero to make it make any sense to me. And even then... you're weakening your offense short-term and have pitching prospects coming back.

Meh.

Without question.

If Glass authorizes the expenditure, everything else the Royals has done this offseason is fine.

However, if Glass draws the line at, say, 4 years and $50 million only to watch Sanchez get his $60 million elsewhere, you sure do wish you had the $12 million you're dropping on Santana back, don't you?

I still don't think that was as wise a decision as many of you do, but time will tell.

Wait a minute now, Paxton, Walker and Montero is what it would take?

If you got offered Walker and Montero for Butler and didn't hit the accept button and run away before Seattle had a chance to change their mind, you're nuts. Walker is right there in that top tier of pitching prospects; not Bundy, but I'd put him ahead of Gerrit Cole.

Paxton and Montero might be good enough to get me to bite; Paxton would immediately be the best (healthy) arm in the system, behind only Duffy overall. I like his upside more than Hultzens, really.

I'd also take Paxton and Walker, without Montero for him. That's 6 years of guys that are a potential 1-2 at the top of the rotation with Paxton possibly ready to be a #3 as soon as next season.

I think you're shooting a little high on Butler's trade value, and that's coming from a guy that likes Billy Butler.

Well, if you take the Santana signing back, we'd still need a 3rd pitcher.

just another confirmation of it happening

@jonmorosi

Sources: Mariners and Royals have had recent talks on Billy Butler.

It will take more than 4/60 to sign him (at least five years, and if you're KC, probably at least $17 million a year). And it depends on how much you're willing to apply hindsight.

When the Royals traded for Santana, all anyone was talking about was how crazy and how high the money demands would go. I mean, Sanchez's agent initially was talking 8 years, $120 million (which might make sense for Zack Greinke but makes none for a less proven, less good guy like AS). The market has come back down a bit since then.

If they're really willing to go to $82 million (What it would take to get him at your projection) or more (what it would take for mine), Santana's $12 million was getting slotted to pitching one way or another. Plus, with how creatively they have loaded some contracts, Sanchez's extra money could be arranged to be on the payroll in years beyond this one (the extra $10 million you're talking about).

I've been saying since midseason that this was my dream:

Anibal Sanchez
Decent, No. 3 type FA starter
Flyer type on one-year deal

I had closed the book on that, but it is starting to look like it is not completely shut. Would be pretty crazy if it ended up happening. And they'd be in the thick of the AL Central, IMO.

I just don't like what you get back from Seattle for Butler. I think it's a fit issue. If the Royals trade a key hitter, it needs to be for a SP who can contribute and is established at the MLB level.

I love Walker, but he's a 19-year-old who needs to repeat AA. I like Montero, but he likely is never better than Butler is now.

It's a major downgrade to the lineup for at least this season. And you're counting on a pitching prospect (TINSTAAPP).

My point was: If you're going to make the 2013 lineup worse, you either need immediate pay-off in the rotation OR an overwhelming deal in your favor.

This could also be a smoke screen. If everyone in baseball knows we need a good pitcher, and if everyone in baseball also assumes we're almost tapped out on payroll, then they could screw us by asking for the moon in trades.

If we convince some of them that we might forget about trades and just buy Sanchez, maybe a team like the Mets tones down the asking price for Dickey.

That's simply laughable.

Meanwhile, I see Seattle as the best possible fit for the Royals. They have a ton of young pitching and really need a bat.

Hultzen and Paxon could absolutely start in 2013. They're not established, but they are major league ready.

I look at it this way - Billy Butler is a more established version of Allen Craig. He's more expensive and has less team control remaining, but he's also more of a sure thing. Then again, Craig can be a good 1b and he's proven to be an adequate RFer (hell, dude played 2b competently in 2011), so there's some defensive value gained over Butler.

Butler probably has a little more value, but they're very very close.

If the Mariners offered Walker and Paxton for Craig, I'd take it immediately. And this is with the Cardinals already having Miller, Rosenthal, Jenkins and Wacha in the system. If anything, we need more hitters, not pitchers.

I think you're underselling the value of young pitching, or at the very least bypassing it in favor of 'established' pitching. I understand you want to move forward in the competitive cycle now, but the Royals aren't contenders even if they get a guy like Sanchez. That's why I can't quite get behind your 'immediate payoff' idea - the Royals aren't there yet.

I think you're short-circuiting the process a little here by favoring established pitchers over young ones. The Royals aren't there yet, IMO. By 2014 they will be, but Walker will also be able to play in the majors in 2014 and by 2015 could be a legitimate ace with Paxton as his #2.

Philosophical difference, I suppose. Then again, it could also be the difference in the fan perspective (really tired of losing every year and want the Royals to reward their fandom) as opposed to mine, which I think is a little more clinical as I view the Royals primarily as a plucky underdog cousin that I'd like to see succeed, but aren't really that vested in.

Butler for Felix - do it.

They both have 2 years of moderately priced team control.

I think it's also TINSTAAPP (There is no such thing as a pitching prospect) and that I look at each of those Seattle guys and see huge problems with them:

Hultzen: Showed severe control problems in his debut season.
Paxton: Has severe control problems that have been present throughout his pro career.
Walker: Stud and I like him, but he's got a long way to go, and I have seen some legit questions about his delivery that make his long-term health a big problem.

They're all great prospects. But that's all they are at this point, and that's why I hesitate. Call it recent burnout of pitching prospects in the Royals system if you want (Combined with Lamb, Zimmer, Ventura all having 2014 likely arrival dates, too).

But you're right. It's just a difference in perspective.

ROFL

I don't think he was serious.

That's why I got a chuckle out of it.

Yost believes Hochevar can turn the corner for Royals
By BOB DUTTON The Kansas City Star
Luke Hochevar was 8-16 last season for the Royals with a 5.73 ERA in 32 starts.
JOHN SLEEZER
Luke Hochevar was 8-16 last season for the Royals with a 5.73 ERA in 32 starts.


NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- That impact addition the Royals are seeking for their rotation, manager Ned Yost suggests, could already be in hand.

“I look for Luke Hochevar to bounce back,” Yost declared Monday in his news conference at the Winter Meetings. “I really do. I think Luke has great stuff, and I feel good every time he steps on the mound.

“The optimist in me thinks he’s going to have a great year.”

The Royals reinforced their rotation in recent weeks by obtaining Ervin Santana in a trade from the Los Angeles Angels and retaining free-agent Jeremy Guthrie. They continue to push hard on trade possibilities for a front-of-the-rotation addition.

That quest – and a willingness to surrender prospects — is one of the major storylines this week while baseball convenes as an industry for its annual meetings at the Gaylord Opryland Resort and Convention Center.

“Would I like to have another starting pitcher?” Yost parried. “Would I like to have two more starting pitchers? Sure. I think every major-league manager would … but at what cost?”

Yost is adamant the Royals continue to see Hochevar as a potential cornerstone despite all indications to the contrary through seven professional seasons. Hochevar was 8-16 last season with a 5.73 ERA in 32 starts.

Ask Yost to explain his conviction, and he rapidly ticks off a series of points.

“One, he’s got great stuff,” Yost said. “Two, he’s a great competitor. Three, he’s not afraid …”

Pause.

“You can pinpoint why a guy doesn’t have success more times than not,” Yost said. “You can look at a pitcher and see makeup flaws. Or maybe it’s stuff. Or maybe he doesn’t throw enough strikes. Or maybe the quality of his pitches isn’t really good.

“I don’t see any of that with Hoch.

“I like his pitches. I like the quality of his pitches. I like his stuff. I like the way he competes on the mound. I like his makeup. He’s not scared. He goes right after hitters. He does his homework. The intangibles are there to have success. He just hasn’t had it.”

Hochevar was the first overall pick in the 2006 draft and reached the majors late in the 2007 season. While he has flashed dominant potential on occasion, he is also a combined 38-59 with a 5.39 ERA in 132 career games.

Even so, general manager Dayton Moore said the club never considered non-tendering Hochevar prior to last Friday’s deadline, which means the Royals are probably looking at, roughly, a $4.4 million outlay for next season.

Yost acknowledged Hochevar’s lack of success is puzzling.

“I’ve never really had a player,” he said, “who I couldn’t figure out why he hasn’t been successful. Again, you can, generally, identify one thing for why a player isn’t successful With Hoch, I can’t.

“I think, at the blink of an eye, it can turn around for him. I just think it’s a matter of time before he is successful. I think this year, with the addition of Santana and having Guthrie from the beginning of the year, I think it’s really going to help Hoch.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/03...#storylink=cpy

Bounce back? He was never there

OH, FOR ****'S SAKE

Ned are you going to continue being a problem?

Although its clear that the Royals don't hate Hoch as much as we do, they aren't quite as enamored with him as that article suggests. There were credible reports that the Royals called everyone to see if there was interest with Hoch or Chen.

They probably heard "no, not really" 29 times, then their scouts chirped about how he just needs one more chance, and now they are putting a happy face on it.

I expect him to be traded our cut loose soon.

Seems like they say shit to **** with us and then do the opposite.

I think someone had interest in him and we couldn't put a deal together so we kept him and are seeing if something changes.

Too much smoke round these parts
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I know, I know: "What are they supposed to say?"

I'm just tired of hearing it, even if it's just empty platitudes that they don't mean. Just tired of the Hoch bullshit.

Looks like soria to texas

I get some of the obsession with Hochevar. If you just look at him from a scouting perspective, Yost is not off base.

But when you have the long history of failure that is on Hochevar's resume, you have to - at some point - realize that the results are never going to match the stuff.

My problem is that half of it is a lie. No, Yost, you don't actually like Hoch's makeup. Hoch is the most mentally fragile pitcher I can remember in a Royals uniform in a long time.

This. Perfect GIF.

Onion articles are really getting more and more authentic looking. Impressive. I almost thought that was real.

But are they actually allowed to put Dutton's name on it and everything?

LOL bounce back from what?

Agreed
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The beating Cassel has been putting on him
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What is this unnatural obsession Moore and Yost have with guys like Hochevar, Getz, Kendall, Davies, etc? It's almost as if they are watching something completely different than we are.

And Duffy and Paulino and probably Odorizzi... This rotation is going to look different in a year. If only we could get a deal on a pitcher like the nationals did on Edwin Jackson last year - a one year stop-gap as a last resort for the player.

Well... I think I am done with the Royals.

Well, if we can't sign Soria, that frees up money, right?

And there was much rejoicing.

No. We never had any intention of picking up his option, and our bullpen no longer needs him. Every estimate of projected Royals payroll excluded Soria.

Thank ****ing God! This is now the sole reason I am excited for the upcoming season.

I just wish that we were the "surprise" team at the Winter Meetings this year. I know, rooting for the Royals precludes that.

Mortgage a few Walmarts for Josh Hamilton.
Trade LoCain and Bonifacio for Dickey. (even without an extension)
Dump Francouer.
Move Myers to Center.

BOOM.