But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

I'll type out a full response when I get home in an hour or so.

I've lost track. What was being argued here? Cassel vs. Thigpen, or Cassel being a franchise QB, or Cassel being half as good as Brady? (Which isn't exactly a news flash. But, then again, right NOW Cassel might be half as good. Who knows how it'll develop.)

The unknown seems to be how "for real" Cassel is and, to an extent, how "for real" Thigpen is. People can talk about how well Thigpen might've done in Cassel's place on New England last year, or how poorly Cassel would've done in Thigpen's place in KC, but unfortunately we don't have the gateway to the alternate universe to find those things out.

So, we have to go by what we know.

There are varying degrees of QB. On the bottom level you have the guys who are inconsistent, who throw a frozen rope on one play and an errant pass on another, or make a brilliant decision on one play and a boneheaded one on another. I'm looking at Byron Leftwich right now for Tampa, and he fits that bill.

The better a QB's decision-making and accuracy, the better the QB. Take Drew Bledsoe, for example. He could be very accurate and had a cannon, but his decision-making often wasn't the best, especially in later years. He'd lock on to his primary receiver and get tunnel vision, trying to force a pass into double-coverage instead of taking the more open pass to another guy. Or he'd take a bad sack from lack of pocket awareness, or heave the ball out of bounds too quickly.

The better a QB, the more they can make up for. A Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning on a bad team might elevate them; a Damon Huard might not. Conversely, an excellent team might make a decent QB look better than he would on a crap team. Same works in reverse (e.g. Brady making average receivers look good).

What it boils down to is this: what kind of consistency do you see from a QB? Are his passes more often than not accurate? Is his decision-making more often than not pretty good? Does he come through in clutch situations, or choke as the pressure mounts? By those criteria, from what I've seen of Cassel, he's definitely on the proper end of the spectrum. Thigpen? Maybe not so much, judging from his lack of accuracy and his declining QB rating at the end of games.

Thus, I think Cassel definitely has the potential to be a very solid starting QB. The kind of guy who can take a team places. (Hell, if guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer can get SB rings, I think Cassel's good enough.) Sort of like a Chad Pennington. Thigpen? He might succeed as a starter, but I get the feeling he'd need more help around him than Cassel, and might be better suited to the Billy Volek role of a backup who can win you some games for a stretch if your starter is out.

A franchise QB, to me, is a guy who can singlehandedly keep his team in the game, always make his team a threat, a QB who is the undisputed leader of his team and is going to be there for a long time. Those are very few and far-between. Brady and Manning in this era, Marino and Aikman and Favre and Montana and Jim Kelly in earlier years, etc.,.

Brady and Manning > Cassel > Thigpen and Croyle (at least in their current versions).

Franchise QBs > guy who's got the potential to be a solid starter > guys who are probably better suited as backups.

Guys who can win games singlehandedly > guys who can make some great plays to help win games and elevate some players > guys who probably can't win games on their own or overcome a lack of talent around them.

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?



your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.



Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer. :rolleyes:

And he did it with no stand out receivers.Yeah he sucks.LMAO

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

I don't agree on Ben, but let's concede it to give him a spot.

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

McNabb's got a better playoff record than Manning and has brought his team to the Super Bowl, and to the NFCCG multiple times. He's clearly won big games. Your assertion here makes no sense, in my opinion. The only year Manning won the Super Bowl, he was getting crushed by the Patriots until they turned into a M*A*S*H unit, and he was then able to take advantage of that, along with lousy officiating, and got to face the Bears in the Super Bowl. Hell, he was being talked of as being the greatest choker in history before he got that win.

All QBs are drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB. Quinn fell because so many teams doubted he'd ever become one.

There's a difference between "a guy" and "a true franchise player", but there are also other layers of quarterbacks, just as you yourself have delineated. Again, nobody that I've seen expects Cassel to become Brady or Manning. Then again, nobody with a brain will expect that of any quarterback, given that they are 2 of the best to ever play the game (for Manning, this is true at least during the regular season, if not in the playoffs).

Don't hate him, he just didn't live up to the #2 overall selection, IMO. Especially when he had MULTIPLE chances, and failed each time.

People say that Roethlisberger was handed rings by his defense, what the **** happened in Philly then?

And being the best in a class of Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shawn King,Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Aaron Brooks, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, Chris Greisen and Scott Covington isn't exactly high praise...

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.


As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.


But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

in his defense, he said "Manning's".

It was intended to be pural, but ended up possessive, so I can see the confusion.

Name all the QB's in league history to win multiple Super Bowls.

Yeah, it's just as easy as you claim, numbnuts.

:spock: