Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

Moses Malone, even at his apex, wasn't doing things that hadn't been done before.

Kelce is.

This is a dude that had a legitimate shot at leading the NFL in receiving yards as a tight end (we sat him for game 16, IIRC). A guy who's setting benchmarks for CAREER thresholds at the same time he's doing it in consecutive seasons.

We've never seen a tight end hit these kind of height with this kind of sustainability. This really is unparalleled stuff.

Wait - now Dan Marino 'doesn't measure up among the best of the best...'?

I truly don't know what we're doing anymore. This has gone beyond tragedy into farce.

Gonzalez is Wilt Chamberlain & Kelce is Jordan.


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Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers.

"Intangibles"

What.....what?

If we’re talking GOAT I am not putting him in the same conversation as Brady. And ultimately not with mahomes. No.

And as I’ve said over and over again, pure athletic talent is not how you measure the best of the best of the best. It puts you up there but it is the intangibles that put you over the top. Marino was exceptionally better at every physical dimension over Brady. Who’s picking Marino over Brady?

TG's QBs over his KC career:

Grbac/Gannon
Green
Huard
Croyle

Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC.

Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013.

Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better.

TG lead the league in receptions in 2004 and was 7th in yds that year. In an era that didn't throw near like they do today.

If TG was playing with Mahomes in his prime, he would put up the same amount of catches, less yds but more TD's than TK. With the struggles we have on the goal line, TG would solve those problems.

And before anyone says well TG wouldn't get the targets\catches because Hill was on this team, just remember 35 yd TG had over 80 catches a year in Atlanta playing with Julio Jones and Roddy White.

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. I don't see Jordan as much better, especially if you count NCAA careers. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

Postseason success is being overrated here. Nobody mentions the postseason when Barry Sanders or Dick Butkus get discussion as the greatest at their position. Why is it different here? RB or MLB are even more important than TE. Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

yep very true

That's why I said you'd need to remove the post-season accolades to make the analogy work - Kareem has an outstanding post-season record. 6 rings and 2 (arguably 3?) Finals MVPs is more than "pretty damn good". People were trying to note that Kelce has a ring and a ton of post-season success around that Lombardi - TG has effectively NONE. I'm removing that from the calculus.

And again, while I disagree with you w/r/t Malone not being a top 10-15 player (I think his resume speaks for itself), I offered Kareem as an alternative for that very reason.

Because anyone who DOESN'T believe Abdul-Jabbar is a top 5 all time player probably needs to brush up on their history a bit. That dude was out there snatching souls in Milwaukee. And while most people remember him for his time in LA, those 5 years he spent with the Bucks were some of the most dominant years of all time as well.

So again - if you want to simply remove all discussion of the postseasons successes of TG/TK and focus on peak vs. duration, Abdul-Jabbar vs. Jordan really shouldn't be the kind of comparison that offends anyone.

Kareem detonated seemingly every meaningful counting stat there was to detonate but he didn't do it by having a sustained high peak - he did it by playing for 20 mostly healthy seasons. Jordan, OTOH, at his peak was simply better than anyone that had done it before or since.

Agreed on that comment. Lynn Swann is living proof of that - 3 Pro Bowls in a 9 year career. 1st Team All Pro 1 time. Never had over 880 Yards Receiving in a season. But those Post Season catches and SB's got him into Canton.......

I always thought it was due to his appearance in The Water Boy