thank the lord.

Bullpens can take some time to get in order. I'm not worried yet. As long as we don't see the normal baseball dumb****ery that dictates horrible bullpen management, these things will work themselves out with time.

Should have swept Philly mother****ers!!!! :mad:

Pen will get it together, best part of trip was starting pitching. Good starts keep you in games.

Too much talent in the pen to be worried.

I don't know if Herrera's two pitch arsenal is enough for a closer. Would be interesting to see.

The last two nights is why it drives me nuts when people say anyone can close games. It's extremely obvious that everyone we pitched in the last two 9th innings was pressing a bit out there.

Ton of talent in the pen though... hopefully we figure it out at some point.

Herrera didn't exactly slam the door shut there.

I bet Holland still gets the next chance to close.

How many pitches do you think a closer needs? Two is pretty common, actually. As long as he can change speeds, he's fine.

This. We haven't even played a game at home yet.

What's the rule to win the division? Win at home, .500 on the road.

Mariano Rivera has a 1 pitch arsenal!

That's one of those games that if they blow that after blowing the game last night, they could run off 8-9 losses in a row like they did last year and be done before the end of April.

I'd prefer to see at least one breaking pitch. On the other hand, if he can get more consistent movement on his change up like that last pitch - I'm sure he would stick.

JFC I'm going to get evicted from my apartment from too many noise complaints by the all star break.

Change is the best pitch in baseball.

Well they need to wake up....

A good change is, for sure. Simply because it's almost indistinguishable from the fastball coming out of the pitchers hand.

And it drives me nuts watching teams keep their best pitcher in the bullpen during the most important game situations only because it isn't the last inning of the game. Presumably so the "closer" can watch in comfort in the last inning when the games already lost and he serves no purpose.

But such is life in baseball.

All I got is wow but I'll take the W.

One blown 9th away from sweeping the Phillies in Philly.

Herrera has 3+ pitches

Just need someone to settle down in the ninth. The rest has been awesome minus one hoch showing
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I would recommend that until Yost learns how to better manage the bullpen and get more bullpen talent you better keep several cases of 'DEPENDS' on board. At least he learned and pulled Holland.

Not out of the woods by any stretch because as you have witnessed today the pitching psyche is still very fragile in some when not taken care of properly.

Go Royals !!

Would you stop with this bullshit dude? It's tiring and wrong.

Well that's kind of harsh. I am certainly not always right. Holland's struggled but he appeared to have pulled it together last night, blew away two guys before giving up the big hit. Then today he was still one out away. It wasn't like he was Ankiel'ing it up out there. His stuff was pretty good. It's almost like he needs to relax a bit out there... but maybe his confidence is rattled and won't ever recover. I don't think that's unfair.

Yost has managed the bullpen fine. JFC

At some point you have to put blame on the player.

You should not post in a Royals thread for the rest of the year.

Ned says the closer is....

FFS. No one asks about the closer situation in the presser? KC media upholding their glowing reputation.

All I've got to say is Billy Butler I love you, you glorius fat bastard! No homo.

Well until we get our bullpen to grow some tough mental balls(get some confidence over time in small increments) or get better talent, WINS are the most important thing right now 'early on' from a whole team psyche perspective. And we can't afford to lose more than we win 'early on' if we are to make it to the playoffs because we don't have the 'strong psyche' built yet to endure that kind of adversity. Therefore to your point I think Yost has to go unorthodox a bit in the latter innings with the bullpen until their is some good confidence built that will allow for more of a standard bullpen approach.

They got the W on the road against a solid team. Great times!! Lets start a winning streak tomorrow versus the twinkies behind Santana. I'm hoping his game plays better in Kauffman.

They're afraid of him. He gets grumpy sometimes.

LMAO

Fine.

Look, I respect your knowledge. But IMO you have developed an annoying posting style with lots of "Yeah, everybody always says X, but I've always said Y," and "I must've been the only one who said ..." You did it with Peyton Manning earlier today.

Then there's the common "Everybody's freaking out except me." It's a game thread on the Internet. People freak out. They blow off steam. It's kind of presumptuous to enter one and tell everyone they're being gauche.

It's not confrontational, like a lot of CPers' "You effing moron," but it's kind of passive-aggressive.

Duncan, for example, seems to get his points across civilly and without it being about him.

Sorry, but this has been eating at me for a couple of years and it just came to a head. I'm sure I'm not everybody's bowl of oatmeal, either.

I definitely have an Andy Kaufman-esque sense of humor. I've never denied otherwise. It's no big deal. Just like people flipping out on a message board, I didn't think flipping people crap on a message board was a big deal. But if it's that frustrating, I apologize.

Just ignore me. Sorry.

I really appreciate those who post in the game threads and talk about this great game. I don't have a deep baseball knowledge, and plenty on this board do so I really enjoy it. I have always been an isolated Royals fan and do not know even ONE person in real-life who is a Royals fan. Having this board is really enjoyable.

(No Chiefshrink, I am not talking about you. Go find an AIDS tree and never post in a Royals thread again.)

I'm not sure that was my point, but okay. I agree though, other than the "standard bullpen approach." I don't know what that means, and if it's anything a Royals manager in the past few decades has followed, I probably don't like it.

But yes, it takes awhile to settle down bullpens. We'll figure out the best roles for everyone once we get a reasonable sample size. Holland has been great for two years, but now he doesn't have all the buzz words sports fans like to talk about? I'm not ready to throw him under a bus just yet.

Holland will be fine. Our whole bullpen outside of Hoch will be fine.

I proudly spew forth Royals when everyone around has on a cardinals cap.

I think you see Holland get one more shot, at least. He's overthrowing on his fastball and his release point is inconsistent. He's got good velocity, but his fastball doesn't have great movement. As Montgomery was saying, he has to throw strikes with his fastball to set up his secondary pitches. The slider and splitter are his best pitches, and guys don't chase those when you aren't throwing strikes with the fastball.

Some uncomfortable flaps today, but I'm still not worried about this pen. Too much talent to do that.

There are at least 25 teams around the major leagues that would gladly swap bullpen personnel on the spot with the Royals. The Nationals and Braves being the only obvious exceptions I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe the Reds, though their pen is not that intimidating after Chapman.

Well this explains a lot. But I do and have played it at a fairly high level as a pitcher(starter not a closer). Baseball is such a mental game and especially with pitchers. You know immediately after the first 5-10 pitches(with closers only) whether they 'have it' or not. And when they don't have it you get them out especially with a 2 run lead in the 9th with no outs especially after walking the first 2 even if your remaining options are not as good because anyone else who can at least get the ball across the plate will make the opponent earn their win as opposed to being given the win is all I'm saying.

I can't tell. Sorry

Please share an example of any manager who treats the guy he has picked as his closer this way.

Even a good closer is going to have some tense outings in 1/3 to 1/4 of his save opportunities. You can't yank your closer every time he walks a hitter or gives up a hit to the first guy.

30/30 managers in baseball would have run the 7th-9th innings the same way Yost did yesterday. 30/30 managers in baseball would have gone to their closer in the spot he did today.

I don't know how many would have the guts to pull their guy the way he did today, though.

I was working outdoors today and listened in off an on. Glad Ned didn't make the same mistake twice in two days. And credit where credit is due. I thought we'd get swept in Philly, and save for Ned being a bonehead last night, we could have easily swept the Phillies. So, nice job coming home with a .500 roadie. Now we MUST play better at home than we did last year. If you recall, we were HIDEOUS at home last year. Must have a good April. Must....must....must!

Ned was not a bonehead last night.

I've been surprised that he's been away/away with the fastball the last two days. He has to utilize the inner third, too, and perhaps this all goes back to the fact that he's not trusting his stuff (for some screwy reason) right now?

I just want to poke my head in shortly to show you guys something.

Greg Holland doesn't suck. He just doesn't. He has among the better sliders in baseball and mid-90s gas. Sometimes he loses the zone...so does virtually every reliever. He's probably not elite but he does not suck.

However, Holland's suck/not suck is irrelevant to the discussion of who should be the closer on the Royals. Take a look at this:

1
http://www.fangraphs.com/not/wp-cont...-to-Salty1.gif

2

http://www.fangraphs.com/not/wp-cont...-to-Salty2.gif

3

http://www.fangraphs.com/not/wp-cont...-to-Salty3.gif

Anyone have a quick guess as to what those pitches were? Those weren't screwballs, they weren't sinkers. They were changeups with the kind of armside run you just don't see from changeups. That's a 2-seamer break on a changeup. The 2nd one is especially vile.

Now look at those 3 pictures more closely, notably, look at the count. Anyone notice anything?

He threw those back to back to back. He pitched backwards off his change, threw it 3 times in a row and the damn pitch was so good that Saltalamaccia still looked like an idiot on the 3rd one, even with 2 prior looks at it.

Oh, and Herrera's fastball is possibly the best in baseball (I like Rosenthal's a little more, but there's certainly room for debate).

Guys, Kelvin Herrera could be the best reliever in the major leagues. I know, Holland's a good pitcher and you'd hate to cut his legs out from under him this quickly, but Herrera has stuff that you just don't see very often and if you're struggling in the 9th, the answer is easy, IMO.

I'd have to break down better tape of him than I have from the TV broadcasts to be sure, but his release point has looked inconsistent. Not sure if that's a landing point/leg/arm issue.

It's also hard to try to go inside when you're not sure if your fastball is going to be straight or break 2-3 inches. At least effectively. I think some of those fastballs he's left over the middle to lefties have been pitches he was trying to throw inside that have drifted out.

He's getting that kind of action on a 4-seamer?

ChiefsPlanet hates FanGraphs GIFs, apparently.

I love Herrera's stuff and potential. I think he's better than Holland, but I don't think there's a very big gap.

I actually like the idea of using your best reliever like Herrera and your next-best guy as the closer, but if Holland doesn't find some consistency and the strike zone, you have to make the switch.

Well hell, those were working when I first posted them, now they're not.

Give it a minute, maybe they'll come back. They're goddamn works of art.

If not, here's the link:

http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.p...eras-changeup/

Agree...

I've never heard anything about him throwing or experimenting with a two seamer. But it seems like he's been getting some arm side run from his fastball, whatever he's throwing.

Don't remember that in the past.

I mean compared to a few on this board (i.e., Duncan Idaho, al north). My knowledge is heads and above more than yours as obvious by today's posting from you.

Nope, if I am the coach I delay his next outing at this point, to potentially not ruin his psyche for the season. And this may have already happened as of yesterday by what we saw today. Hopefully not. I get his head right by showing him mechanically what happens when he 'presses' too much because this is ALL in his head.

Too many talented pitchers fail whether starters or closers because they believe it's all up to them, forgetting about their great teammates/defense behind them. You ask any great closer what was their secret in being mentally tough and pitching great in the last innings and most will tell you "because I knew I could relax knowing I had a great defense behind me that had great confidence in me. "They didn't expect me to be perfect and I knew I couldn't be perfect and knowing this allowed me to relax and pitch almost 'perfectly'.

Good lesson for life as well.:thumb:

72

Holland is getting that drift action on his 4 seamer. Herrera's change up is pure unhittable filth. WOW

You make my point. By Yost pulling him today admitted indirectly that he F'd up yesterday and left him in 'EMBARRASSINGLY' too long. 3 consecutive walks to load the bases with a 2 run lead with no outs in the bottom of the 9th? And you still leave him in only to lose the game? What did you expect ? That's a perfect formula for losing a game. That's embarrassing because it makes it look like you don't know when to take a pitcher out and you trying to make the 30/30 argument because there were no other options ?:rolleyes: Hell at least make your opponent earn it by at least putting someone in that can get it over the plate.

If Holland is so mentally fragile as to be crushed by what has happened in the last two days, he was a waste of a roster spot in the first place.

He's fine. FFS. Shit like this happens in baseball.

No. I don't make your point at all. You don't yank a guy you NEED to have a successful season the first time he runs into trouble. Especially when you have no one available who's a better option for the situation at hand. Pulling Holland today was a desperation move that luckily worked out for Yost (if it hadn't, there would be calls for his head - just like there would have been yesterday if he had put in Gutierrez or Chen and lost the game).

Oh, and BTW... I've spoken to a lot of people who think they know much more about baseball than they actually do. The worst I'd run into was an intern during my time at Sporting News*, who was convinced that So Taguchi could be an MLB all-star if given everyday at-bats. Well, until I started talking to you today.

*when I was the editor for Todd Jones' and Ken Rosenthal's columns, edited the (in)famous Sporting News team notes for baseball, was a member of the panel/team that directed our baseball coverage, co-authored several books, and wrote a bi-weekly blog for the website.

Holland had a slow start in April last year as well and I think his velo is not up to his mid-year form, yet. I also think he will be fine.

ROFL

So Taguchi is awesome, dude!

I think the Royals should forfeit the game for breaking the rules.

I'm open to the possibility that Herrera might prove to be a better reliever than Holland, but Holland will be fine.

Reliever or closer? I ask because the closer role takes a certain amount of testicular fortitude and "grit". Holland has two plus pitches just like Herrera does, but Hollands are fb slider, where as Herreras are fb change. If you examine further, you will see that Herrera also mixes in a cb, where as holland used to use a splitter, but now is almost predominantly a fb slider guy.

I find this interesting because I often hear the reason Herrera shouldn't be the closer is because he only has two pitches. (Yes I know that's plenty, but it's an argument people use to discredit Herrera as a bonafide closer)

Either way, Herrera is just so overpowering that even w/o the recent struggles of Holland you would have to consider swapping their roles. IMO Holland will be just fine, but that doesn't change the fact the alternative is a higher percentage play atm.

I haven't followed the offseason.

What happened to the guy that everyone referred to as "Filthy McNasty"?

Name escapes me.

Soria was let go. He's with the Texas Rangers now.

Surprising.

He had TJ surgery, and we saved some serious cash letting him walk. I believe he's on the rangers dl atm.

He won't be the same anyway

Had TJ surgery last offseason. Royals figured they had Holland to close this year and didn't want to pay Soria's salary after surgery.

Any failed pitcher from here on out gets it fist city to the face.

shouldn't be. He's not what he used to be, the options were nowhere close to being worth exercising. He'd need to agree to come back for a lot less money.

Johnny, I like the way you think.

good win today!!

I agree. I like Soria, but it was time to let him go, and rightfully so.

It seems to me like Yost has really pushed all the right buttons so far.

He's not giving away outs with a bunch of bunts, but seems to be using them in the right spots. He seems to be managing the staff well, watching the pitch counts, hit and run to spark the offense, etc.

I've really got no problem with Yost to this point.

And by the way, I'm 1-0 in Royals Game Threads, although this one scared me off from doing another one tomorrow.