Why do people defend Frazod calling Taco a racist and flame Taco?

(sings) Theres a whole lot of Mexican goin on, goin on in Taco Johns!

CG

sorry, last one :D

So let me get this straight, Fraz... Your "solution" to the illegal immigration problem is for the government to pay babysitters to watch all the illegal immigrants, and make sure they get out of America by the time harvest is done... Right? How is this solving anything? You're just throwing more money at the problem, and creating an administrative nightmare to boot... But on top of that, what about the people that don't cooperate... Is this the part where they get shot?

Maybe your answer should be more focused at attacking the opportunities that draw illegal immigrants into America... They wouldn't be here if there weren't any jobs for them, now would they? Take your gun laws argument, and adjust it to fit this situation... Why create more laws when you could be enforcing the ones that are already on the books? Isn't it illegal to hire illegal immigrants? But God help the farmers if these laws are enforced.

Your solution to stopping the meth trade in America is to stop Mexicans from getting across the border to sell it... How is that a solution. You're not eliminating the opportunity, your just changing the hands that the money goes into. The only way you are going to stop illegal drug trade is to take the profit out of it. Period. Otherwise, there will always be someone there to pick up the slack. This is America, and where there is money to be made, there will be people there to make it.

In other words, you have no solutions... Just a few half cooked ideas.

I remember growing up my neighbor hated black people. This crotchety old bastard never shut up about how the black people were going to change his quality of life. Guess what? Twenty years have passed, and he's still an as$hole, at the same quality of life too!

And for the record, I know no one has accused me of being racist, but I am not, I was just having some fun with the name Taco John. I can see how someone would think I was being racist, but I am not, just playin around.

OK... I've stayed out of this long enough...

Frazod,
I agree with your frustraion... especially the part about speaking English. This isn't a race question for me it is a culture question. If I move to a foreign country (which I did... for those who don't know, I'm currently living in Spain) I should be expected to at least TRY to blend in with the existing culture. As an American (Thank God) I really don't try to hard... but I would fully understand, if everyone looked down on me because my Spanish sucks or I don't follow local customs.

BUT I don't have any problems with bringing holidays and other cultural "artifacts" to a new culture. I DO have a problem when people expect them to be respected. I'm having a 4th of July party in Spain this year and I FULLY expect it to be ridiculed and seen as a novelty. This is a NORMAL response. It would be SUPREME arrogance for me to expect people to respect MY holidays when I'm in THEIR country. If I was ever to make Spain my permanent home than am I to expect them to adopt MY holidays? NO.

The same applies to language. The idea that we should "make allowances" for foreign speakers IN AMERICA is catering to the lowest common denominator. Making it easy for people to live in America without becoming "Americans"

(to be continued)

(and now the rest)

Taco John,

I understand your indignation for what seems a lack of respect for other cultures... but Mexico, Europe, Asia, etc... are FAR worse than America on this subject. Yes, the U.S. is a "melting pot" ... but let's think about what that means. A melting pot is where diffferent items are added together to form a new item... not just a mixture of a bunch of disperate groups. We are an old enough country now to have a national identity and I think that America does a fine job of accepting new peoples into this identity. But if you add a sprig of parsley to tomato soup... it doesn't mean that you should call it parsley soup. Too many people want to not only feel special but be RECOGNIZED as different. I'm proud to be an American.. I don't celebrate Irish holidays (except St. Pats which btw is much more of a holiday in the USA than it is in Ireland) such as Irish independence day... but if I did that would be fine... but I certainly wouldn't expect others to respect my uniqueness in this.

(one last thing)

Immigration,

I don't agree with making stricter border controls... because it just won't work. The border with Mexico is FAR to big. Plus, I have ALOT of friends in Texas that are only one generation removed from Mexico. The nice thing is that MOST of them are more "American" than I am. In fact, quite a few of them look very poorly upon the state of affairs in Mexico. It isn't fair to make blanket statements blaming all Mexicans for the joke of a country that Mexico has become. The fact is the "ruling elite" in Mexico (of which I have alot of exposure) are mostly raging dirtbags, who couldn't give a damn about their own people. It is easy for us in America to condemn some of the uprisings that have occured in Mexico in the last few years... but at least it show that there are some people willing to stand up for change.

I don't have an answer for the situation there... so I'm very loathe to make too many sweeping judgements.

---Kyle
(so am I a racist too? or just ethnocentric?))

I agreed with everything you just said... Even to the last period.

Austin-

Are you a mediator? If not, perhaps you should consider a career change! Like Taco, I fully agree with your perspective. I'm glad you chimed in.

I've been saying for years that it isn't rasism. It's 'culturism'. I'm glad somebody else sees it. I wonder if everyone does, or if most people just don't get it because they are too busy accusing people of racism or defending themselves from accusations of racism.

Everyone-

My opinion is that if people on the left would stop shouting 'racism' and quit being so thin-skinned, AND people on the right would quit closing their eyes to the problems and state their opinions more politely, that maybe, we could all find where everybody REALLY stands. Then we could hopefully come to a common ground that was not what either side really wanted, but was tolerable for both.

This can only happen if people on the right don't allow radical left-wingers to inflame them, and if people on the left don't allow radical right-wingers to inflame them, either. It would also only work if people get over their selfish "what's in it for me" attitudes.

Each and every one of us needs to ask ourselves frequently, "Am I being too selfish? Am I helping others address their needs as well as my own? What points can I concede to the other side that will encourage them to make a concession as well?"

Incidentally, asking these questions are what morality and indirectly, religion, bring into our society. If people would return to morality, they would automatically treat each other with more respect. Individual respect is what any society needs to run smoothly. This is why morality is important. The lack of morality has been playing a large negative role in our society on many of these issues.

LapDog
serving all mankind ;)

Fraz-

I was hoping I hadn't said anything to upset you. (Wouldn't want you to shoot my family :) )

Seriously, I wasn't really defending you so much as attacking Taco John. He pissed me off. It was obvious somebody needed to put him his place. While I'm closer to your opinions than his, I do see merit in some of his points. I DON'T agree with his delivery.

As far as stating the obvious, I called Taco a racist for the reasons listed below. I personally don't think he's racist. However, I do believe that he is unfairly stereotyping you and others (myself included) as ignorant, midwestern, arrogant, blindly patriotic (brain-washed), intolerant, lazy hicks who have no sympathy or understanding when it comes to the plight of his Mexican friends and relatives. (John, I suspect that you are probably half-Caucasion, but I still think you have a problem with certain types of white people. This gets back to the comment Austin made about culture.)

1) I hoped to get him to re-think his attitudes toward whites in general and also toward the stereotype he seems to be applying to his opponents on this thread. I was hoping to get him to SEE his racism, if it is actually there. It was a calculated risk with little down side and a fair amount of potential. When somebody recognizes that they stereotype people too, they are more likely to give a little slack to someone who has a different stereotype.

2) I wanted him to see how unfair his comments were. He, and we, have no idea who you are, just like we have no idea who he is. I wanted to show him that it's really easy to draw a conclusion like that and then have it stick in your own mind, even though it's unfounded.

3) I hoped that he would find that being accused of racism is just as offensive as calling somebody '******' or 'spic' (sorry guys and gals) and that it should be reserved for those times when you truly wish to offend someone. If you're talking with a liar, you either work around it or you don't deal with him. You usually don't call him a liar. It get's nothing accomplished. Likewise, if you're talking with a racist, you try to find a way to get him to see it or you don't deal with him at all. You don't call him a racist, especially if you are trying to get him to see your point of view. Again, it get's nothing accomplished.

4) Finally, I was hoping to put an end to all of the antogonistic behavior in general. By providing a sample of really bad behavior, and making it clear why it was bad, I hoped to bring the discussion back to the normal standard that the Planet usually enjoys. I think I succeeded in that regard.


If anyone found my earlier posts offensive, that's regrettable, as it wasn't my intent. However, I felt it had to be done.

LapDog

OK, after reading Donko John's post I think I am going to be sick. " I don't like this, but I am willing to help you out with it anyways". Give me a break! And if the majority of the people are starting to think like this, I want the break to come in the neck. Put me out of my misery now.

Donko,
in defense of Fraz, I think he would want Italians shot at the border if they lived next to us and were causing the trouble. He doesn't have a prejudice against Mexicans as such, just Mexicans, or whatever nationality, who are screwing with OUR country. That's right, OUR country. Our ancestors gave their lives in one form or another so that they and their posterity could live in a nation of freedom. Freedom from big government, freedom from religious persecution, economic freedom, and a whole host of others (the ones I mentioned actually have much to do with the first).


Fraz,
I agree whole heartedly with what you have said (well, I only read about half of the posts, but what I read I agree with). And don't listen to those who think you should calm down. Things won't change with an attitude of "I really don't give a d@mn". Keep the passion, even after you are out of that he!! hole.

A few responses to new posts:

1. Taco, this may come as a shock to you, but actually my solution to the drug problem is legalization of all drugs. I see America's war on drugs for what it is - an abject failure. The way I see it, there are only two solutions to the drug problem - bomb the places that produce the drugs into oblivion, which isn't realistic (so please don't quote me as advocating it), or concede defeat and offer legal alternatives to the current drug trade (which would go a long way towards obliterating crime everywhere). There is no easy solution to this problem, but the current war on drugs is nothing more than modern prohibition, and it is doomed to failure. However, short of that, increasing the border patrol would help stem the tide, at least a little. I want the flow of illegal immigration cut back (from everywhere, not just Mexico) regardless of what they're bringing, or not bringing, over with them. Obviously Mexico is the biggest problem because they can simply walk or drive here - it's a bit difficult to walk or drive across the oceans others have to cross.

2. Kyle - you have a very realistic attitude about foreign holidays. I've been in Spain on the 4th of July, and take my word for it, its just another day to them. If you pull the kind of stuff Mexicans do here - driving around with an American flag flying out the window of your car and generally raising hell on the 4th, you can fully expect to get your a$$ kicked - and they won't do any soul searching about it, either. I've seen American flags burned in Spain on occasion - they have a very low tolerance for our BS there and react very badly to being disrespected. I and several of my old Navy buddies have the scars to prove it. I could tell you some stories... but another time.

One thing I never mentioned - much like St. Patrick's Day in Ireland, Cinco de Mayo is not nearly as big of a deal in Mexico as it is in the U.S. (there was a story on the news about it). It is apparently a very minor holiday there. Only the Mexicans living in America go berserk over it.

In any event, I've lived my last May 5th anywhere near a place where anyone will give a damn about it (at least on a grand/annoying scale), so I really no longer care about it one way or another.

Lap Dog: Don't worry, the only things I shoot at are targets at the range (and aluminium cans out in the woods whenever I get the chance). It was Taco who referred to you Frazod's Lap Dog - I never had any such ideas on the subject.

I could be mistaken but, didn't Donko John call Fraz a racist? And we are not supposed to be defend Fraz why?

I think that is just human nature that when people come to live in a land with a new language - that it will take a generation before that family is fluent in the new language. My ancesters got here about 130 years ago, the adults that came over probably never spoke english, but the kids picked it up.

When I have traveled abroad, I try to learn the language before I go, but am always dissapointed in myself for not doing a better job. ( I alway make sure that I can order a beer, and ask directions to the bathroom) I am grateful when the native people help me out, even though I am butchering their language. When I encounter foriegn speakers here at home, I try to be helpful - but if there was an aggresive or violent attitude accompanying the exchange - I would walk away.

Our problem with our southern border is not going to go away until the disparity in living conditions decreases. We can either 1.) wait for Mexico to increase their standard of living. 2.) find someway to help them increase their standard of living, or 3.) continue as we have been (so why bi+ch about it?)

Jamie, Oleman takes an occasional shot at me - it really isn't a big deal. I'm actually surprised he still comes here - seems he's happy and content with the rest of the liberal idiots over at the pigskin board.

As for your earlier post, I concur. No racist here, I just happen to have a little pride in my heritage, and don't want the country my ancestors fought for, died for and built overrun with people (any people) who have no right to be here at my expense. Selfish bastard? Perhaps. Goose-stepping Nazi? Hardly.